1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of I Heart Radio. September 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: one began like any other day for Lonnie Dumont. I 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: worked for a company in Ingle Rock, Massouri at the time, 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: and I was going to Joblin to do service calls. 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: Lonnie was a former truck driver turned repairman who fixed 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: wood stoves, pellets, stoves, and hot tubs. He says he 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: was on his way to his first job of the day, 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: about five miles west of where Tammy Ziwiki went missing 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: nine days earlier. It was a Tuesday, around nine am. 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: Lonnie was driving his boss's pickup truck along in the 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: state forty four when it started to rain, so it 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 1: started franklin. I pulled off an exit ramp and got 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: out and got my tools and set them in the 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: front of the truck. And I can smell something real 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: d I mean it was funky, and it uh was. 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: I shut the truck door. When I turned to walk 17 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: around the front of the truck, I've seen it. Laying 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: there roughly twelve ft from where Lonnie stood was a 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: shocking sight. A bulky red blanket rolled up like a 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: big cigar duct taped on both ends usual till it 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: was a body laying there with this bunk and everything. 22 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: I figured it was either that or somebody had an 23 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: old dick now for cat and they just wrapped it 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: up and throw it off alongside the road, so they 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: didn't have disposed of it. Lonnie knew something was off. 26 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: What he didn't know was what to do next. I 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: went I hadn't got in the truck and started down 28 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: the road, and I kept thinking, you know, I really 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: ought to call the highway troll and turn again, and 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, we think, no, I'm not gonna call the 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: highway troll turned in because it's not my business. What 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: Lonnie Dumott chose to do act would leave him with 33 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: a cloud of suspicion that lingers to this very day, 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: thirty years later. Previously on paper ghosts, people started buying phones. 35 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: Guys and tasks are running out by the phone. They saw, whoa, 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: it's good, my wife got my daughter. I took a 37 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: phone call in the kitchen and he said, Jen, don't 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: say anything, I just want you to listen. They found 39 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: a body in Missouri. Tammy is a very young girl 40 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: on our way to college. Who would she willingly go with? 41 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: On a sunny afternoon in the summer when her car 42 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: broke down. Now we have a crime sneed. Now I 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: have a place to start looking. Before we had nothing. 44 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: My name is m William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 45 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 1: and author of more than forty true crime blows. This 46 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: is season three of paper Ghosts in Plain Sight. Vehicles 47 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: are trucks. Yeah, thirty thirty years ago thereyone near this 48 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: made cars out here. You can stand along this highway 49 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: thirty minutes sometimes now see anything, just truck, just just trucks. 50 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: I first met Lonnie Dumott during a trip I took 51 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: to Missouri last year. He's a good natured, heavy set 52 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: guy with cropped hair, a long, square shaped goatee, and 53 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: a somber looking, slow moving dog that tags along wherever 54 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: he goes. We met a long Interstate forty four at 55 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: the exact location where he found Tammy's a Wicky's body 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: in described to me what happened. It out. I was 57 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: going to Joplin, and I had my boss's truck and 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: and he was at the time he was a deputy 59 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: sheriff and the fire ju so he had radio in 60 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: his truck. And when I pulled off the rampstar raining 61 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: and I come across the crossroad just about where that 62 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: guardrail starts up there, and it uh, there was a 63 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: body laying off in the DearS. I got out to 64 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: put my tools in the front of the truck because 65 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: it was raining. So you stop up at the guardrail, Yeah, 66 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: well almost to the guard not like to the guardrail 67 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: like before it or after this this side of it. 68 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: And I walked around the truck and get my tools 69 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: out of back, and then I went to the right 70 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: door and opened the door and was set them in 71 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: the foreboard because I carried two trays. I should know 72 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: there are people who don't believe Lonnie's account of what happened, 73 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 1: That he's given varying accounts as to why he pulled 74 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: over in the first place, and that the decisions he 75 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: made after finding Tammy's body seems suspicious. He was laying 76 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: right there. And there's another report to you said you 77 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: stopped to take a piss. Did you know you never 78 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: said that I stopped to get my jewels out of the 79 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: the back of the truck. I don't know where that 80 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: came from. Well, I sort of figured, you know, just 81 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: like you, you're gonna try to to make a a 82 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: sort of a report out of this, and there's things 83 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: that get bobbled around. But this is your voice. This 84 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: is your story, not mine. You're telling your story to me, 85 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna tell it for you, and I want 86 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: to get it right. So you pull off that ramp. 87 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: You're heading west, okay, So you pull over, you get out, 88 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: and I walk around. The truck smells something funky, but 89 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, alongside the road, you don't don't really know, 90 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: So did describe the odor to me? And if you've 91 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: ever found a dead body, it's it's undescribable, you know 92 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: what I mean. It's a smell, it just all my 93 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: he turns your stomach. I looked at there and seen 94 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: it laying there, and I thought where, And then on 95 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: the side of the road, drive here, up here? So 96 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: was up here? How far off the road? And she 97 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: was probably I don't bous far from here to that 98 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: piece of plastic right there ten twelve ft And Lonnie 99 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: said he saw what appeared to be a body wrapped 100 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: in a red blanket with silver duct tape sealing both ends. 101 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: He could tell it was a body just by the 102 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: way it was laying, which is why knowing what he 103 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: did immediately after seeing the blanket seems so strange. Lannie 104 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: hopped back into his truck and drove away. I thought, well, 105 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: it's not my problem. At the time, I didn't have 106 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: a driver's license. Uh. And then I thought, I'm just 107 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: gonna going down the road my own business and going 108 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: down the highway between here and the next exit. I 109 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: talked myself in and out of calling the police about 110 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: a hundred times, and the last thought I had was, 111 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: if it was my daughter, I'd want to know. I 112 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: shared this last detail with the source, someone close to 113 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: this wiki case with access to the autopsy and crime 114 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: scene reports, and they found his comments troubling. Why would 115 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: Lonnie Dumott say daughter if he didn't know the gender 116 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: or age of the person and the blanket. It's small 117 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: details like these that can be so easily twisted into 118 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory and make someone like Lonnie an easy target. 119 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: But what Lonnie said didn't strike me as strange. It 120 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: was apparent he was recalling what happened from a contemporary mindset. 121 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: In other words, he already knew who the victim was 122 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: as he retold his story. Minor discrepancies in anyone's recollections 123 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 1: are understandable. Thirty years is a long time. The truth 124 00:07:53,760 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: is inherent, sure, but time can affect memory. Besides line, 125 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: he did end up calling the police. So I pulled 126 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: off and called the state how I tolled and they 127 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: said would you meet us there? And I said yes, 128 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: and they said what are you driving? I said, white 129 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: three quarter tons should be pick up. So take me back. 130 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: I mean, see, have you have all these cops here? 131 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: What are you thinking? I'm thinking I want to go 132 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: to jail because I don't have a license. They asked 133 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: me to see my idea and I give it to him, 134 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: which it was expired or wasn't expired. He was revoked, 135 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: but he didn't say that, and they they just wrote 136 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: my name down and stuff. And when we after the 137 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: corner got there and we'd picked her up and put 138 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: her in the down are the cops there when the 139 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: corner comes? Yes? Okay, So the corner comes and you 140 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: say we picked her up, you helped? Yes? Yes? How 141 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: how did that happen? The state trooper that was there, 142 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: he got out and got a pair of gloves and 143 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: he walked down there and looked at it and sort 144 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: of walked around, and he come back to get his 145 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: pocket and I file the car and he said, I 146 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: hope you know you made my day. And I said, well, 147 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: if you got another pair of gloves, I'll help you. 148 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: Because at that time I was part of the fire 149 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: department where I live at and it, uh, there was 150 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: just massively covered with bug you can't imagine. I mean 151 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: bugs were on this. We cut the blanket, and once 152 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: we cut the blanket, we had to cut a lot 153 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: more because she was wrapped in a sheet. We had 154 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: to get down in there with all in bugs. And 155 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: what did you see when they when you cut that 156 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: blanket open? We've seen that it was a body. You 157 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: could tell it was a body. Could you see the face? No, 158 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: now we didn't didn't open the end of it. And 159 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: and uh, we've seen a femur in her leg and 160 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: it was exposed. It was rothered enough that it was fallen. 161 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: And he said, that's all I need to see. And 162 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: at that time we didn't even know it was a girl. Uh. 163 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: And at that time we had two girls and a 164 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: lady in Springfield that went missing right the Springfield three three. 165 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: I thought that may have been one of them. Ah 166 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: Lonnie said, he helped carry Tammy's body up the embankment 167 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: and placed it next to a body bag that was 168 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: along the side of the road. This may sound odd 169 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: to many, and multiple law enforcement sources, including one from Missouri, 170 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: told me this would not have happened, that the person 171 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: who found a body would never be asked to help 172 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: move it, and under modern day police policy, they're absolutely right. Today, 173 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: Tammy's body would have remained in that gulch for hours, 174 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: so the entire crime scene could be processed for evidence, 175 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: but cold cases need to be looked at within the 176 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: context of the time and place this was in. In 177 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: rural Missouri, the Lawrence County Sheriff's office, which initially took 178 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: the call, only had about twelve officers on staff at 179 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: the time, and some of them worked part time. Brad 180 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: Delay is the current Lawrence County Sheriff. I'm not saying 181 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: that the body wasn't moved, but that is probably an 182 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: unlikely thing unless they were to the point for two reasons, 183 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: one being that all the evidence that they needed to 184 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: collected was collected, and the corner was on scene and 185 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: was able to or was ready to remove the body, 186 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: or there was sometimes of extended circumstance that would have 187 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: necessitated the body being moved immediately. Uh. In something like 188 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: that would have been you know, all of a sudden, 189 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: there was gonna be this downpour that was gonna cause 190 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: flooding that may have damaged the body or the crime 191 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: scene or something. As the person who found Tammy's body, 192 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: Lonnie DeMott, was, by mere happenstance, the first suspect, they said. 193 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: Before they got down with me, he said, I got 194 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: one more question for you. And I said, what's that? 195 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: And he said, I know this goes sound like a 196 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: stupid question. Do you know how the body got there? 197 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: I said no, sir, But I said I can tell 198 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: you one thing. I used to drive of a truck. 199 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: And from what I see, most truck drivers have a 200 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: sheet in their bed, and most truck drivers have a 201 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: blanket in their bed, and almost all truck drivers have 202 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: an uptape. And if you retch up in the sleep, 203 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: open the door and the sleeper and retch up and 204 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: grabbed her and pulled her out, that's about where she'd live. 205 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: Why do you say that, Well, I drove a truck 206 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: for years, and and uh, if you got ahold of 207 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: her and drug her out the sleeper, that's about where 208 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: she'd lit was where she was at, and right here 209 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: there's nothing around. And you know, we look too, We 210 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: look to the north of where her body was and 211 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: we see nothing but acres of farm land, not even 212 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: a farmhouse. You see nothing, nothing. You look west, nothing, 213 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: you see nothing. You look south, you see that old 214 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: truck stop. But you say that old truck stop is 215 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 1: really small. Yeah, it was small. It It mainly was 216 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: the fuel stop. Truckers would often pull off here to 217 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: do the log book. All the time. Truckers pull off 218 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: extra amps to do the log books basically when they 219 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: know that there's a scale at Joplin and they're real 220 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: known to be real stickier about your log book. So 221 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: that would answer the question of why a truck was 222 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: parked there. So if the cop is driving by, there's 223 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: no way he'd stopped following. Absolutely, they wouldn't bother you. 224 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: I've slept on this ramp before, used to be in Missouri, 225 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: and well the whole country you can pull off on 226 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: extra ram, go to sleep and no one bothers you. 227 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: What's most troubling to me is what Linnie said happened 228 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: after the body was recovered. Do they call you in 229 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: for a report or you go down there. No, they 230 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: never never ever talk to me at all outside of 231 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: the scene. I think shortly after they figured out that 232 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: she was here and she was from up north and 233 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: out the east. I don't believe that once they run 234 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: all their leads they had. I believe they's done with it. 235 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: I believe it's set for thirty years or close to it. 236 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: With the exception of a brief and formal call later 237 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: that day in Lonnie claims that no one, not Lawrence County, 238 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: not Missouri State Highway Patrol, not the Illinois State Police, 239 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: no one contacted him for a formal interview after he 240 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: found Tammy's a Wicki's body. Lonnie told me he had 241 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: no idea the body was part of a multi state investigation. 242 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: He had no clue that it was a young woman 243 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: who had been abducted five miles away, or that her 244 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: case would go on to become a national news story. 245 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: After he drove away from the scene that day, Lonnie 246 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: said that nobody from law enforcement ever spoke to him 247 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: again until twenty eight years later in two thousand twenty. 248 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: Almost everyone involved in the discovery of Tammy Ziwiki's body 249 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: had no idea that the young woman they'd found in 250 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: Missouri was a missing college student whose case had started 251 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: to attract national attention. How could they Tammy's disappearance was 252 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: being handled by a different law enforcement agency in Illinois. 253 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: This event took place in District seventeen, which is our 254 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: neighboring district. And my boss, my captain, called me into 255 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: the office and said, um, you're going over seventeen. A 256 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: girl disappeared on the interstate and you're gonna help the 257 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: p i O over there run the media and all 258 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: that good stuff. Jeff Hanford was a public information officer 259 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: or p i O with the Illinois State Police at 260 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: the time. At District seventeen, he worked alongside another p 261 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: i O, Jerry Myers. Jerry and I were sitting there 262 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: in the phone ring, and you know, I mean, we 263 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: had been a fielding media calls and it was a 264 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: media outlet, I believe in Missouri, and they said, hey, 265 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, this is so and so from channel such 266 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: and such, and we're trying to verify that the body 267 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: that was found here was Tammy Zwicky. And I said, 268 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: what body? And they said, well, we found a body 269 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: rolled in a carpet and the clothing matches. Tammy was 270 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: found wearing a blue T shirt from her high school 271 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: soccer team, along with sweatshorts adorned with soccer patches from 272 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: various leagues she played in. So I went over and 273 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: knocked on the door, and the vest one of guests 274 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: there came. I said, they found a body in Missouri 275 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: and the clothing matches Tammy Zwicky. You need to talk 276 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: to the guy. So you know, they basically I think 277 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: they talked to him briefly and then they called the sheriff. 278 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: The closed. Tammy it was found wearing were her own, 279 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: but it was later discovered that the items she had 280 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: on were not the same ones she was wearing when 281 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: she said goodbye to her brother hours earlier. According to 282 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: her brother, Tammy was wearing a white T shirt and 283 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: dark shorts. Here's Jeff Padilla, a retired lieutenant from the 284 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: Illinois State Police. She was wearing a pair of shorts 285 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: from a soccer club that she played for, but was 286 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: what was very important to us was that the patch 287 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: from that soccer club was cut off the leg of 288 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: those shorts, notably one circular white patch with red stitching 289 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: that read St. Giles Soccer Club. Had been torn off 290 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: the shorts Tammy was wearing. Why would her killer cut 291 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: off that patch? We thought it possibly that it was 292 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: a souvenir. According to Padilla, Tammy's killer took the patch 293 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: as a trophy. It's an interesting idea since serial killers 294 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: can sometimes be prone to exhibit that kind of behavior, 295 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: and in theory, there is no other reason beyond maybe 296 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: the killer wanting to remove evidence from the scene if 297 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: some of their own DNA got on the patch. As 298 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: for the change of clothes, it's possible Tammy changed when 299 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: she picked up lunch at Hearty's or later after her 300 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: car broke down on the side of a hot highway. 301 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: She had bags of clothes packed in the car. Still, 302 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: what is the likelihood she needed to switch out of 303 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: everything she was wearing. Authorities kept a number of details 304 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: surrounding Tammy's death private, but Lawrence County corner Don Laken 305 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: spoke to a reporter shortly after the body was found 306 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: and revealed this She was fabbed seven times in the 307 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: chest and one time in the right arm. To those 308 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: stab wounds puncture her long and one punctured her labor. 309 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: In an interview with another reporter, Laken noted that Tammy's 310 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: body didn't appear to have any blood quote, just some 311 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: body fluids on the sheet and blanket from the decomposition 312 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: end quote. Law enforcement never publicly released the official cause 313 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: of death. What we do know is that Tammy died 314 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: from those stab wounds which were caused by a short 315 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: blade like a Swiss army or pocket knife. Here's Marty McCarthy, 316 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: one of the members from the I s P Task Force. 317 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: What was unusual. It was a pen knife no more 318 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: than that seven times around the heart and one is 319 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: on scrapes the side of the of the arm. So 320 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: she had to be unconscious when that. No one's going 321 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: to sit there and take that kind of Some including Marty, 322 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: have speculated over the years that there was a pattern 323 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: to Tammy's wounds, one that circles her heart. Those with 324 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: direct knowledge of the autopsy report, however, have told me 325 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: there was never any indication of this. From what I 326 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: have learned so far, I can speculate confidently that Tammy's 327 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: killer was likely positioned on top of her, straddling her body, 328 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: stabbing in a frenzied outburst. That this was not some 329 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: sort of ritualistic, methodical placement of wounds. It's just strangest 330 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: murder I ever saw. Why would someone stab somebody seven 331 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: times around the heart. Is that saying something? It would 332 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: indicate to me that it wasn't necessarily gonna kill her, 333 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: that I better get rid of her, and all I 334 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: got this little pen knife, and there's no preparation for it. 335 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let his road. I can't do that. 336 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. This is just my speculation. I've never 337 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: seen a murder like this. Ever, it's hard for me 338 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: to understand how that happened, other than in fact, it 339 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: seems to me she has to have been unconscious, has 340 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: to them. I don't think you could find someone and 341 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: there would be marks on her wrist. If there weren't 342 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: any as far as on it, they could have ye, 343 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: and no continusion is on the head As far as 344 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. It took some time. Where in the 345 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: hell is she? What you're doing with you know? It's 346 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: just strange as hell? And where's the blood? Where's the 347 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: you know? These are questions I have. I don't know 348 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: the answer. While I was in Missouri, I was able 349 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: to track down one of the first officers on the scene, 350 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: There's been plenty of misinformation spread over the course of 351 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: thirty years regarding that day, so I was eager for 352 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: this source to help clear up any doubt about Lonnie 353 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: Dumott's story and what the crime scene itself can clarify. Unfortunately, 354 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: my source just wasn't comfortable being on the podcast. What 355 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: I can say about our conversation is this. The source 356 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: told me that the first cop on the scene wasn't 357 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: a big guy, so it made sense to him that 358 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: Lonnie would have been asked to help carry Tammy's body 359 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: up the embankment. Why was there a rush to get 360 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: her out of the gulch and not wait for backup. 361 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: It's tough to say. As Sheriff Delay mentioned earlier, weather 362 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: concerns could have been a factor. After all, Lonnie does 363 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: maintain that he pulled over to cover his tools when 364 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: it began to rain. Plus there were two agencies at play, 365 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: Lawrence County and the Highway Patrol. In my opinion, however, 366 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: it boils down to inexperience with major crime scenes. Here's 367 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: Jeff Padilla. He has a bad idea. It's it's a 368 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: bad idea. I don't know why that was allowed to happen, 369 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: that she never should have been allowed to happen. Another 370 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: point of contention I sought to clear up was how 371 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: long Tammy's body had been left out next to the 372 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: roadside in Missouri. Asked one of the many online sluice, 373 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: and they'll tell you she was likely dumped the night 374 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: before she was found, that she had been held captive 375 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: some where. One of the more popular theories is that 376 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: her body had been kept in a refrigerated truck for 377 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: most of the time she was missing. My crime scene 378 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: source actually carried Tammy's body, which was now in a 379 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: body bag, from the roadside into the corner suburban. He 380 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: says that the smell was so bad the officers needed 381 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: to apply Vicks vapor rub under their noses. The source 382 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: also said that Tammy's body and head appeared to be swollen, 383 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: that her face had a bluish purple color, and that 384 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: blood had pooled in the upper part of her body. 385 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: The body was in a state of decomposition, which makes 386 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: it difficult to for example, identify you know, decom as 387 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: as opposed to bruising or abrasions. Um that was you know, 388 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: very some some things that could provide us with some 389 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: more information, but h so, there was a number of 390 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: things that were recovered from the crime scene. Later on, 391 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: we were able to try to go through and analyze 392 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: items such as the blanket that her body was wrapped in, 393 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: the clothing that she was found in, the there was 394 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: duct tape that was used to secure the ends of 395 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: the blanket that she was wrapped in, and so um, 396 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: all of those items and those physical items are available 397 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: to us. The origin of the blanket has been a 398 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: source of misinformation that's been spread around the Internet for years. 399 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: It's unclear even how the rumors started, but message boards 400 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: and blogs claim Tammy was found wrapped in a red 401 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: blanket made by Kenworth Trucking Company, something that was often 402 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 1: used by truckers on the road. I have learned this 403 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,719 Speaker 1: is simply not true. In fact, I was told that 404 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: law enforcement at the time looked into the Kenworth detail 405 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: and discovered that the blanket was nothing more than a 406 00:24:52,560 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: common product sold at kmart stores nationwide. Still, the handling 407 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: of Tammy's body, in particular the initial testing and autopsy reports, 408 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: would become a point of frustration for investigators like Jeff Dilla. 409 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: I know that the Missouri State Police were there for 410 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: the autopsy. In my opinion, the autopsy was less than 411 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: I would have expected in regards to detail and analysis. 412 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, at the time that you had an autopsy 413 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: conducted in a jurisdiction that that's all they had. And 414 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: the elected corner was also the local funeral director, and 415 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: so he's not seeing the volume of suspicious debts that 416 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: say somebody in a in a more urban area, a 417 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: medical examiner or a corner and in a more urban 418 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: area is seen. I would have loved to have a 419 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: lot more photos taken, a lot more testing done once 420 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: once you're done with the autopsy. If you don't, if 421 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: you didn't take enough photographs, then there's no coming back 422 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: from that. While investigators were just starting to piece together 423 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: what happened, the Ziwicki family was really the worst possible 424 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: outcome was now their reality. Any hope of Tammy returning 425 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: home safe and alive was now shattered. Hank and Joeann 426 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: Ziwicki's little girl was gone, murdered. It's unfathomable. You guys 427 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: had like a memorial service for at the college. Tell 428 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: me about that. How was that? It was very nice 429 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: They had more students that they could handle. I wanted 430 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: to speak because she's she was just an all around 431 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: purpose on our person on campus because of her working 432 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: with the paper and everything she knew from there. Does 433 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement want to hold onto her body for a 434 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: little bit to examine Frenzy? They did have it for 435 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, and then they finally released the body 436 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: to you And what do you what do you do? 437 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: You have a service in Pennsylvania funeral service she had 438 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: a lot of our college friends did come for the services. 439 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: Dammy got along with everybody. She was very well liked, 440 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: and it it was hard on the the not only 441 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: the girls, but the boys too. It was hard on 442 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: all of them. And how are your son's coping with 443 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: all of this? Well, they did well with it. We 444 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: didn't make more out of it than we should have. 445 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's happened. It's happened. The police are looking 446 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: into what they're looking into. We're not going to make 447 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: it a big thing and keep it over the family. 448 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: It's something that's happened that we've got to get through it. 449 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: Darren is the only one that really I think still 450 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: it's been hard for him to let go of everything. 451 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: A common complaint I heard from where the Ziwikis were 452 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: concerned was how little the Illinois State Police seemed to 453 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: be doing, or I should say how little they were 454 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: telling the family what they were doing. In the I 455 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: s p S defense, there's only so much you can 456 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: tell the family of a victim during an active murder investigation. 457 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: Early on, everyone is a suspect. That includes Tammy's brothers, 458 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: her father, friends, and other family members. Still, the lack 459 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: of communication with the Ziwiki family caused a great deal 460 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: of frustration and anger, all of which I think could 461 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: have been avoided. They were grieving and desperate to find 462 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: out anything, but the state police were just not giving 463 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: them any information. So did the Illinois State Police update 464 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: you each day or well? I always made a point 465 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: to try to be stay in touch with one person 466 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: as far as them update me they were doing. They 467 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: were just stuff. I'll tell you what what you need 468 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: to know when you need to know it. It was 469 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: not a very good relationship with the Illinois Date place, 470 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: but I usually found someone that I could communicate with 471 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: and get information, So I did stay up. One things, 472 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: how does the investigation progress from here? As best that 473 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: you could? I mean, it just was to look into 474 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: everything and publicity. A lot of a lot of people 475 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: were critical of the publicity that was put out. They said, 476 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: why did you put, you know, publicity out? The picture 477 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: appeared in some newspapers and things like that, and we said, 478 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: because we wanted to try to get information. I mean, 479 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: how do you get information? Well, doesn't it bother you? Yes, 480 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: but I see her face, whether I see it on 481 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: a picture or whether I don't. You know, it's in 482 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: your mind. It's in your mind, it's there. Here's Tammy's 483 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: eldest brother, Todd. Early on, we were getting pretty regular updates, 484 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: and those kind of telled alf over time as people retired, 485 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: as FBI agents changed over time, as when I state 486 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: police people changed over time. In the beginning, did they 487 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: mention anything about the type of DNA they had what 488 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: they found forensics? Yeah, early on. The only thing they 489 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: had for a long time that I was aware of, 490 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: was they said they had found the beer can near her, 491 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: and that the beer can had something on it. They 492 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: had no idea whether the beer can was just there 493 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: coincidentally or was somehow related, or whether the case would 494 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: be you know, they kept all the physical of it end. 495 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: But back then my understanding was that to the extent 496 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: that there were any traces of d n A on 497 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: anything like the blanket or clothes or anything like that, 498 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: the technology was such that they just couldn't. It wasn't usable, right, 499 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: There wasn't enough of it um And so my understanding 500 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: had always been that they had this beer can and 501 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: that maybe they could do something with d n A 502 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: off of the beer can, but that that was all 503 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: they had in terms of physical evidence to go on. 504 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: After Tammy's body was found so far away alongside a 505 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: popular trucking route in Missouri, the I s P and 506 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: FBI's focus narrowed even more. A truck driver became their 507 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: most likely suspect, and much of their investigative attention now 508 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: shifted to reflect that. As former I s P investigator 509 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: Marty McCarthy told me in the last episode, at one 510 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: tip from a woman who saw a man with a 511 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: blue or green pickup truck parked behind Tammy's car just 512 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: didn't get the attention it deserved, but it could have. Now. 513 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: Whoever assigned this to this agent, the supervisor recognizes from 514 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: the get go hey, look at this, he says, look 515 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: at it. When looking back at the I s P 516 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: s tip sheet that I obtained. It's hard to miss 517 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: a hand drawn star and the word possible written beside 518 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: the tipster's name. This tells me that someone on the 519 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: task force saw the value and following up. Marty's theory 520 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: is that that never happened. So what happened was there 521 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: was no follow up on this. He blows it off, 522 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: and when they when we have a timeline to help 523 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: the investigators, he doesn't even put it on there. What's 524 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: even more significant about the eye witness who saw the 525 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: man with the pickup truck is that she calls the 526 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: I s P tip line a second time. Now. She 527 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: says that she had just had an encounter her at 528 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: her place of work with the same guy. As it 529 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: turns out, the guy was not only in the area 530 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: where Tammy disappeared in Illinois, but his family owned property 531 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: in Missouri, only fourteen miles from where Tammy's body was found. So, um, 532 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: we go back, We look him up two times, fell him. 533 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: Here's a trucker. Violent felon got a green pickup trucks 534 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: a few miles from the scene. It's like bingo on 535 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: the next episode of Paper Ghosts. Obviously, over time, we've 536 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: had some people who look like plausible suspects. I didn't 537 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: know why there was so much focus put on that truck. 538 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: There was also claims that there was a pickup truck. 539 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: This always bugged me, but I'm no one certain terms 540 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: to stay out of this occasion. To me, it was 541 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: I don't want the game to the factor. I'll just 542 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: see whether or not to sated my track or not. 543 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: I'd wait till further down the road, whether or not 544 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: I even wanted to do it in kilm or not. 545 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, please listen to my 546 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: other podcast, Crossing the Line with em William Phelps, where 547 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: I used the same storytelling elements you've heard in Paper 548 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: Ghosts and cover missing person and murder cases. Paper Ghosts 549 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: is written and executive produced by me and William Phelps 550 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: and I Heart executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by 551 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: our supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our associate producer is Darby Masters, 552 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abou Zafar. 553 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: Our series theme number four four two is written and 554 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts 555 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: for My Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 556 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.