WEBVTT - Therapy For Gay Men 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.360 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:17.600 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.680 am your host, Jen Kirkman. My guest today is Ken Howard. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.119 He is the founder and director of Gay Therapy l A. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.960 He also has a podcast of the same name. And 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:31.880 I have a lot of listeners reaching out to me, 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.559 especially during the episodes that I did back in February, 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.559 there are more relationship based. There were people saying, you know, 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.479 is there a kind of therapy for gay men? And 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.720 I I had somehow come across Ken Howard on on 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:48.840 my Instagram because I follow a lot of therapy things 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:50.920 and then I get recommended this, and I get recommended that, 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.760 and you know, we're on opposite coasts. So we've been 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.800 trying to make this interview work for a while. But 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.600 I've also noticed a try end that therapists have on 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.760 their websites. Now you know, oh, they're trained in this 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.800 and that, and they see children and adults, and they're 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.440 also lgbt Q affirming, which means they may not be 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:19.840 gay themselves, but they will not um be completely oblivious 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.840 to what the gay experience. Maybe you know, they may 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.680 be anywhere from just hey, I'm not a bigot too. Oh, 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.679 I have some training in you know, the cultural things 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.440 that may cause depression or anxiety in addition to you 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.120 know what we just have inherently on our own because 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.160 they are lgbt Q in America or in a certain 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.320 state or in just the world during this time, or 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.480 their you know, their family doesn't accept them or whatnot. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.000 But I wanted to wait until I could talk to 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:58.000 someone who is actually a specialist like kenn Is, so 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.600 that I could give the most of this topic on 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.080 an episode that I could since it's out of my depth. 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.960 But um, I figured you don't want like, you know, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.959 me and in a straight therapist talking about you know, 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.760 the gay experience. And so Ken exclusively has worked with 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.760 gay men gay clients, whether as individuals or couples, for 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.239 over twenty nine years. He's based in Los Angeles and 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.600 West Hollywood, and he does provide coaching for gay men 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.720 and gay mail couples via phone or you know, a 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.280 zoom session to clients all over the US and in 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:34.920 many countries, especially places where people do not have access 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:41.040 to a gay therapist. Now, what is interesting about this 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:46.280 episode is although we don't really get into relationship anxieties. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:52.440 We do just talk in general about anxieties that gay 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.680 men might face, but we really kind of just end 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.440 up talking about anxiety because there is obviously this universal 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.880 thing that that if you have anxiety, have anxiety, We're 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.000 all going to experience the same things. Of course, depending 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.120 on your circumstances in life. You know, if you're a 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.400 black woman, if you're a gay man, you might have 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:20.720 obviously different and more anxieties than someone in society who 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:25.000 doesn't have to put up with extra pressures from society, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:30.320 bigotry from society. You know, there is more to quote 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.200 worry about. But um, what's interesting about this episode is 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.720 a lot of my episodes come from the place of 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.920 the person with anxiety, in the sense that we talk about, 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.040 you know, your normal, this is what it feels like, 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.760 this is what anxiety is. What I liked about my 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.560 conversation with Ken Howard has really got into what he 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:54.840 does in his practice, and he has so many different 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:58.040 modalities of helping people, whether it is he takes more 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.760 of a coaching attitude with some one in one moment 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.640 or more of a you know, direct psychotherapy moment, whether 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.520 it's positive psychology or cognitive behavioral therapy. There is all 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:12.080 of these different modalities that he is studied in and 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.880 can kind of weave all of them through in one session, 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.480 and you get to hear, you know, like a fly 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.520 on the wall, Oh, he had a client yesterday with 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.160 this issue, a client yesterday who at that issue. And 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:23.920 so I really think you'll get a lot out of 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.240 this episode from that perspective, and it's a great episode 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.360 if you've never been to therapy to kind of hear 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.720 what can go on in a therapy session, as well 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:33.920 as something Ken teld us at the end of the 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.839 episode spoiler that anyone can go to therapy. You don't 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.599 need to have a disorder of any kind. You don't 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:41.520 have to have a mental health diagnosis or be on 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.400 the lookout for one. You just can have a goal. 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.160 You don't even have to have a problem. You can 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.680 just have a goal and you want some help achieving 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:57.240 that goal. Okay, So before I get into my conversation 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.320 with Ken Howard, I'll just let you know a little 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.640 bit about him from his From his bio, he's devoted 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.480 his professional career as a therapist exclusively to working with 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:10.560 gay men or individuals um or gay mail couples. In 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.599 the nineteen eighties, um Can enlisted in the War against 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.960 AIDS as a training Can you hear the I live 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.960 next to a fire station. We've been so far, so 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:23.840 good on this podcast, where you don't always hear it. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.600 I don't know if you could just hear that, but 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.760 I'm not starting over. Listen. Sometimes there's fire trucks, okay. 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:36.120 Um Ken began as a trainee in mental health, first 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.479 in psychology and then in clinical social work. He volunteered 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.080 at AIDS Project Los Angeles as a phone buddy, providing 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.560 phone counseling to people with eights. He noticed that the 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.000 guys who had more mental health support survived longer and 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.800 better than their peers with poor mental health. Later formal 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:56.200 research proved that observation. Ken's own diagnosis as HIV positive 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.320 in November lad him to abandon the pursuit of his 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.400 five year plus PhD psychology program because, as he says, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.560 at that time he was literally afraid that he would 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.080 not live to see the completion of a doctoral program, and, 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.560 as he says, he was far too obsessive compulsive to 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.799 die with a half finished degree. He chose to pursue 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.560 the two year full time MSW Master of Social Work 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.920 program in the Mental Health Concentration at the University of 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.920 Southern California School of Social Work, where his internship training 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.480 right from the very beginning, emphasized the population that he 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.560 wanted to work with most, the LGBTQ community and to 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.280 do his part in the fight against AIDS. At the 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.120 LGBT Center, he co facilitated a group for gay and 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.600 bisexual male incest sexual abuse survivors. Later, he got very 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.960 interested in helping people with more severe psychiatric disorders or 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:53.800 chronic mental illness, and he completed a clinical internship at 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:59.120 Pacific Clinics, Pasadena, specializing in assisting persons with schizophrenia and 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.920 other severe persistent mental illness and developing a model of 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:09.160 care called psycho social Rehabilitation and assertive community Treatment. After 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.600 years of formal supervised training, he earned his California State 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:18.360 License to Practice Psychotherapy, which is the LCSW licensed clinical 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.000 social worker, with a special additional training as a psychiatric 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.560 social worker, which qualifies him to discuss medications and their 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.680 use more in depth, but not as precisely as an 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:33.440 empty psychiatrist. So Ken Howard knows his ship. Okay, people, 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.640 so enjoy my conversation with Ken Howard and maybe you'll 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.880 learn about something new, like I did something called birthday anxiety, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:42.960 which I've got coming up the summer. But this isn't 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.160 about me right now, Okay, enjoying my conversation with Ken Howard, 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:47.720 and of course you can go to the links in 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.600 the show notes and read more about Ken and find 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.080 out about his podcast, in his book and all kinds 0:07:54.120 --> 0:08:00.720 of things. So I'll see on the other side. You know, 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:02.640 I always kind of kind of joke, you know, we 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.720 gay men tend to pay the bills. You know. It's 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.640 it's it's an affluent market niche in general. I mean, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.800 it's kind of a stereotype that all gay men, you know, 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.320 have design and clothes all the time. That's not true, 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.600 but um, you know, it's a desirable niche. It's just 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.640 that I think niche as you have to be careful 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.520 because you've got to have some kind of an entry 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.800 ticket in terms of credentials. You know. It's, uh, it's 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.360 like any other field where specialized knowledge or specialized expertise 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.400 really comes in handy. And you know, early in my 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.480 career I made the very important decision that I was 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.880 going to be a specialist. I was gonna put all 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.439 my eggs in one basket, you know. And at the 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.360 time building my practice and building my career in the 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.280 nonprofit world, people said to me, you know, if if 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.800 gay men are or you know, if if gay people 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.240 are approximately ten percent maybe a little less of the population, 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.280 you're excluding of the world from ever being able to 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:07.520 be your client if you really specialize in a exclusive practice. 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.760 And I said, yeah, I know that, but you know, um, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:15.400 partially from a business standpoint, specialization and niche, you know, 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:20.319 tends to create business. You know, if you're dry cleaners 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.880 and you specialize in cleaning suede and you get a 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.839 spot on a swaye jacket where you're gonna go, you know, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.880 or there's a specificity is just so important sometimes because 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.120 there isn't time to study everything equally, you know. I 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.080 always make the joke if I get a call from 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:37.959 a teenage girl with an eating disorder, I'm going to 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.280 refer to a colleague who sees teenage girls with eating 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.160 disorders all day long. But for gay men, it's kind 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.839 of like, well it's and you know, and I was 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.839 advised in grad school by this woman chev Romain names, 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.000 but she said, well, I told her I wanted to 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.679 specialize in gay men. You know, this is from day 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.240 one of grad school. And she said, well, and you're 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.200 going to be a very narrow perison. And I thought, 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.440 you know that that's one of those things I called 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.600 subtle homophobia. Because if you had somebody saying just about 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.640 any other specialization like ge that'd school counselor I want 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.760 to specialize in teenage girls who suffered with eating disorders 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.320 and support their recovery, they'd be like, oh, that's interest 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.040 good for what? Yeah, exactly, And and it's just and 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:28.120 it's one of my things, you know, politically about subtle homophobia, 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.840 because I think it's everywhere, and because I'm just old 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.120 and curmudgeonly at this point. But you know, but but 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.360 I'm very proud of that, and it was the reason 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.600 why I made that kind of it sounds a little sappy, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.559 but I am a little sappy. It's uh, you know, 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.079 I I kind of came of age in my twenties 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.400 during the AIDS crisis, and I saw a lot of 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:55.920 beautiful souls, you know, gay men who died very prematurely. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.559 And I said, I can't stand back and watch this 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.200 without giving to this community. Not on my watch. If 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.679 I can do something about the decimation of gay men 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.920 in America, I'm going to do something. It's like Superman. 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.160 If I have these powers, I'm going to try and 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.360 save people with them. And so that's the commitment I made. 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.960 First two people with HIV, especially gay living with HIV. 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.040 Later I did work with women and kids in youth 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.920 with HIV, so the whole HIV spectrum. But it's my 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.760 I think it's my gift back and I think it's 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:37.000 my existential I can't speak French. They for my for 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.520 my career, you know, kind of the the original kernel 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.800 of inspiration, and so it really, I mean it sounds happy, 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.840 but really what I'm doing every day and supporting gay 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:54.400 men's mental health and well being is ultimately I'm fighting 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.280 back against the AIDS crisis. You know, I did have 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.920 that trauma, and every day, politically and clinically and socially, 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:05.920 I fight back against what we lost in any way 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.040 I can. And that to me, that's a career. Fine, 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.920 that's that's fine. If that's my life, I'm happy with that. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:19.200 My grandmother taught I'm sorry my grandmother taught first graders 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.600 how to read for thirty years and that was her career. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.400 And it's like, okay that, you know, she didn't teach 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.079 oul gebras, she didn't teach college chemistry. You know, she 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.719 taught first graders how to read for thirty years. And 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.040 to me, that's a noble life, you know. And I 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.480 don't really believe necessarily in St. Peter. But when I 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.360 get to St. Peter and he says, who are you, dude, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.839 I'm gonna say I helped gay men's mental health and 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:46.240 well being for over thirty years. Yeah, okay, come on in, welcome, Yeah, 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.520 wipe your feet before you come in the door. Yeah. 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.959 And uh. And that's kind of just the whole drive 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.680 that drives my career. So when I do career coaching, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.360 we sometimes talked about that. I say, what is the 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.600 drive that will get you up in the morning, even 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.600 on a rainy, cold Monday morning when you don't nobody 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.240 wants to go to work, They want to stay in bed. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.840 But what is important enough to you that you might 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:11.520 get up on a rainy Monday morning and go to 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.439 work anyway? Because your work is that important? And you know, 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.439 if people can answer that then I think they're on 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.120 their way to a good career. And I think what 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.080 you said is so important to the people saying well, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.079 that's niche, that's narrow. You know, it's coming from this 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.040 how much progress we've made, and I know there's so 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.839 much more to go, but it comes from this really 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:38.559 ignorant place. It's like you experienced this decimating plague that 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.079 was being ignored by the government because most of the 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.640 victims were gay and left a generation of who knows 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.560 what kind of beauty we could have in the world. 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.720 This generation was left to die. The mental health impact 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.400 on that is insane. And it's not like, um, gay 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.199 people were able to get married or have protection at work. 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.079 I mean it was like and these people still have 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.800 to be closeted while they're dying at this place. I 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.120 mean I to me, that is broad in the sense 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.280 that if you can help this community with mental health 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.120 as they go out into the world and flourish, because 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.520 this might be one of the first generations that really 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:19.640 is allowed to um, you're taking your expertise and your 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.520 survival and your gift, you know. And to me, like 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.040 you said, your grandmother taught people to read well once 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:27.880 you learn to read, you can do anything, you know, 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.280 and once you get your mental health in order, you 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.360 can become anything. And then they will be inspired by you, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.960 and they'll inspire others that just I'm so happy to 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.480 hear you say this and I and I'm just grossed 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.520 out by those people that said those things, because it's 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.080 it's you know, luckily you were not influenced by them. 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.280 That's one of the things about you know, the history 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.160 of HIV and AIDS is that, um, so much of 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.520 it is lost. And it taught me a lesson really 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.320 about history, about what people in general know about the 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.320 height of the AIDS crisis today. And I just think, 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.360 wait a minute, wait a minute, that that's the tip 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.720 of the iceberg. That's that's not even half of it. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.680 You there's so much more than people know about. And 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.080 I want to, you know, if you apply that to 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.880 anything else, to World War two, or to the Civil 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.520 War or the Civil rights movement, or just anything in history, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.160 and think, oh my god, anything in history we really 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.040 only know the tip of the iceberg about, you know, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.520 if we could talk to people who live through some 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.960 of that. Some there's still a lot very very old people. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.120 But the Holocaust for example, something like that. You know, 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:39.320 we realize it's humbling because it means that even what 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.840 thirty years later, you know, so much as lost to history. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.800 And I think it's it's important because there were so 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.360 many things about the AIDS crisis that nobody talks about, 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.160 and yet you know they were there, just little everyday things, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:56.840 you know, things in the news. The level of hysteria 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.400 was much worse, I think than people realize. You know, 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.960 there was a college director who wanted to put on 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:08.280 a production of The Normal Heart, a gay and aids 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:12.320 them to play, and somebody burned his house down for 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.200 directing a gay themed play. I mean that stuff was 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.480 lost to the news, but yet things like that happened. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.680 Or Ryan White, a little boy with HIV trying to 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.480 go to school and you know, I had to change schools, 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:29.280 you know, just things like that, and people are like really, yeah, really, 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.600 And there was a lot of you know, speaking of anxiety, 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.280 you know, there's a there was a lot of the 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.200 theme of anxiety that came out of the AIDS crisis, 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.480 I think because there was anxiety about getting it, getting 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.480 HIV positive, and then there was anxiety about what course 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.560 it would take which was my situation. You know, I 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.720 always say I was diagnosed with HIV in n and 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.360 I worried about whether I would outlive my ninety two 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.240 year old grandfather. Yeah, and there was just all this. 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.160 You know, people who were diagnosed, you know, practically within 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.520 weeks of that. You know, we're dead in a year 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:13.600 and certainly in ten years. You know. Oh, you know 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:15.600 this is you know, if your HIV negati if you 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.520 take one pill once a day, you know, for prep 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.520 pre exposure provolaxes, and if you're HIV positive you take 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.920 one pill once a day for antivirus medications. So you know, 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.479 gay men across America, you know, are getting up out 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.600 of bed every morning and popping a pill. And and 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:32.920 that's the end of the HIV store. I mean not really. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.240 I mean it's a lot of people would say, hey, 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.640 buddy boy, you know, it's not over, and there's still 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.720 a lot of suffering and challenges and and there are 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.160 I have my own challenges medically. I'm at the doctors 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.560 once or twice a week for some kind of HIV 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:51.320 related something or something. And you know, so I understand 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.320 that it's not over, but I think we also have 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.040 to be very grateful for things like progress and change 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:02.200 and the heroes of our society, like scientists. I will 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.040 never meet little little dweebs who were probably made fun 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.520 of for being a chemistry geek, you know, instead of 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.360 being a football player. But you know they're the ones 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.720 with their little test tubes that found a way to 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.920 keep me alive every day, you know, so just every day, 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.960 I'm kind of grateful that some little dweeb or you know, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.800 white coat who studied chemistry while I studied theater, you know, 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.639 is found a way to say my life because they 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:34.000 invented you know, I centrists or or whatever. And you 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.880 know it's it's got bust the geeks, you know, because 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.159 they're the ones that create the medicines that keep us 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.320 in our loved ones alive, right, you know, they keep 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:47.960 the theater department alive. Well, you know this brings me 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:49.960 to this is what's so fun to talk to you 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.560 about because you have, um, you have this episode of 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.240 your podcast about birthday anxiety, which I never heard anyone 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.679 talk about, and you know we all have it. I mean, 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:00.800 you know, I'm gonna be fifth you soon and I'm 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:02.800 not not anxious, but you know, but I do like 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.600 the specificity of it in the gay community too, because 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:07.560 I don't know if you've seen this. I have a 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:11.119 friend named Sam Pancake is very funny comedic actor and 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.480 he lives in l a And there was a viral 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.399 video going around of him on stage because he was 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.960 talking to a younger gay man in his twenties and 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.280 Sam's in his fifties, and the younger gay man said 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.439 to him, Oh, I can't believe. I can't imagine being 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.159 in my fifties. I'm just gonna kill myself when I 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.200 get to be that old. And Sam went on a 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.800 rant on stage that was epic, and he was like 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.680 just everything we've been saying, like, um, well, I'm glad 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:37.800 you feel you have that luxury, but you know, I 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.320 would you know in my generation, like we're all scared 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.480 of AIDS and so many people I know would have 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.040 loved to have lived till fifty and you know, blah 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.000 blah blah. And it reminded me of that when I 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.440 listened to your episode about birthday anxiety, that you say 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:52.879 there are men gay and who come to you with 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.719 birthday anxiety and it's in and how would you I mean, 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.399 I guess it could relate to anyone really, But what 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.920 what is your advice for someone who is anxious about 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.879 getting older? Well, I think, you know, I worked a 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:09.359 lot in my in my therapy practice. Um. You know, 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.320 I mainly work in the school of therapy called cognitive 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:17.040 behavioral therapy, which is awfully useful for a lot of 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:21.680 things as opposed to the old school psychodynamic and psychoanalytic. 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.280 Although there's a saying the older therapist gets the more 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:30.040 here she uses psychodynamic and psychoanalytic elements because it gets 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.880 it more depth. I get that that's a developmental thing 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.320 for therapists, and when I've done clinical supervision of coaching 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:41.080 young therapists, we talk about different therapies and models of 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.320 therapy that can be used. I actually taught models of 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:48.520 therapy at USC. But I also draw a lot from 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:54.359 developmental psychology and existential psychology, you know, existential stuff about 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.960 what gives life meaning and purpose. So I was talking about, 0:20:58.000 --> 0:20:59.280 you know, what do you get up out of bed 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.920 rainy Monday morning to do? You know, that's kind of 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:08.000 an existential motivation for what kind of mark do you 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.600 want to make in this life? But then develop memorly, Um, 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.400 I think there's a little bit of an underappreciation even 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:19.040 among therapists for developmental issues across the lifespan, especially with 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.040 what I call the zero birthdays. Birthdays that end into zero. 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.320 Thirty and forty are the big ones. You know, in 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:30.000 my practice, a guy turning thirty, there's a whole syndrome 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.320 of what happens. It's very predictable, and there's a whole 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.199 syndrome at forty. It's less so at fifty and sixty. 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.560 By fifty and sixty you kind of give your fuck. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.680 But it isn't that funny because I think it's different 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.200 for women, because well, I mean everyone's different. But for me, 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.920 you know, I'm like having physical symptoms I'm going through 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.760 like menopause and is really the worst and uncomfortable, and 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.359 so fifty for me, forty was like nothing. I was like, 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:58.639 who cares? And thirty I think it's a gen X thing. Um. 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:00.760 I was a little anxious, but I feel old. But 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:04.199 in my growing up, my generation, we knew that from 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:05.960 twenty to thirty you were kind of supposed to be 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.640 a funk up. It was fine. I think these days 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.840 kids have more pressure than like want to have their 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:12.520 life together by twenty five and I was just like, 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:14.240 I don't need to do that. So at thirty I 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:16.359 felt a little bummed out, like it was time to 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.240 start growing up. But I didn't feel old. I didn't 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.440 feel old until I still don't feel old. But I 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.480 feel like fifty is the first birthday I'm gonna go, 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.840 oh ship. But it's what are people experiencing in your 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:29.439 practice at thirty and forty? Like? What is it? Just? Um? 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.639 Well again, if you're looking at the gate mail niche 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.879 you know, in in really a close up focus, you know, 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.600 I think, um, you know, it's how people what there 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.520 is called present you know, fancy word for the first 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.640 thing a guy says on this first therapy session, really 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.680 is you know, well, you know, I'm having some concerns 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:53.040 about this and that and you know the turning thirty transition. Um. 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.240 If we look at professional stuff, it's sometimes about coping 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:59.000 with their first managerial jobs, give or take. You know, 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:00.960 you can be a CEO like twenty two, or you 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.600 can be you know, the guy sweeps the floor at sixty. 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:07.520 It just depends on the field and your individual career park. 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:12.200 But you know, in general, speaking broadly, you know it's 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.640 coping with more responsibilities at work, you know, maybe less 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.360 opportunities to go out in a weeknight because you've got 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.040 a major presentation at work the next day, or because 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:26.000 you're in a position where you give me major presentations 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:30.080 at work then, or um, settling down. I think there's 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.880 a homing instinct around thirty where you're like, yeah, then 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.399 you know, just kind of horn around and um, you know, 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:39.680 at thirty you start to have a little bit of this. M. 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:42.359 I wonder what it would be like if I met 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:45.560 a guy and settled down and the issue maybe to 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.119 have kids or not, And um, I think there's a 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.040 whole financial responsibility. You know. One of the things I 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:54.760 ask guys who are new who are thirty, I kind 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:56.359 of saying, what's going on with you? Far one k? 0:23:57.240 --> 0:23:59.520 You know, and some of them are like million dollars 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:01.159 in my four and because since I was twenty my 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.560 grandfather's loaded and fine, you know, others will be like 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:07.560 what's that, and like where do you work? Oh? You 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:11.399 know IBM, you know, someplace with full benefits where you 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:13.520 know they have afore own OK. And I'm like, Okay, 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:16.600 tomorrow you're going to your HR office and saying, Hi, 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:18.600 how do I enroll in the fore OUM okay, you know, 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.639 because it's you know, there's professional things, there's financial things, 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:29.040 there's certainly health things, um things about it's a it's 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:32.040 a little bit of a wake up call about when 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:34.879 you're not in your twenties anymore, you kind of transition. 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:38.840 It's like you've gotten a promotion in life. You know, 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.840 you're going from twentysomething to thirty something, and you know 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.639 that's a very characteristic change, you know, kind of a 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:48.680 little bit of a buckle down, a little bit of 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:55.680 a um, you know, completion thing. You know, it's like, well, 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.760 I've had one more course to go before I finished 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:00.960 my m b A and that's been going on for 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:03.280 four years. And it's like, okay, you're taking that course 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:06.600 this year so that you have an NBA by your 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:08.560 thirty one and then you're gonna be making twice as 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.239 much by forty one and whatever. And you know, that's 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:14.560 when I become kind of uncle ken about, you know, 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:20.399 the mentor and then turning forty. Unfortunately, I try not 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:22.160 to tell guys who are thirty of it. It gets 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:24.840 worse when you're turning forty because they're like, oh no, 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:29.680 and uh but you know, turning forty, there's just a 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:34.360 lot of neuroses that comes up about aging, body image. 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:36.920 Did I make the right choices in life? Do I 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:40.959 want to change my career? Did I choose the right 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:43.400 person because I've been in a relationship for eighteen years 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:45.280 since i was twenty two, and I'm not sure he's 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:47.960 the right one. You know, these are all things that 0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:52.879 whether or not you want kids, you know, by forty 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:55.840 you've got to start really making that decision because I 0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:57.960 do the math. You know, if you have a baby, 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.000 you're going to be fifty eight by the time it graduate. 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:03.800 It's high school, so you know, it's uh, you can do. 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:05.840 Plenty of people do that. It's not the end of 0:26:05.920 --> 0:26:08.520 I've seen that it works out fine. But you know 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:12.000 in that in the the the blog article about gay 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:15.800 men and birthdays, there's also another part of it, you know, 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:20.200 like the guy at at sam Pancakes show that you 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:23.879 know a lot of aging anxiety. And Eric Erickson, who 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:29.280 was a great theorist psychologist author, kind of said every 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:32.720 phase of life and he outlined certain phases has a 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:35.680 challenge and a reward. It's not done any one age 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.800 is better than or worse than others. It's just that 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:42.800 you get some kind of an advantage of being whatever, 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:46.240 forty something, but you also have a challenge with it. 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:49.880 And he said, if you the trick, the trick to life. 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.200 Eric Erickson was basically saying, if you can emphasize the 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:57.000 joys of each phase and minimize the pitfalls with a 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:00.560 risk of each phase, it gives you a more confident, 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:06.760 less anxious that word, way of approaching your life. And 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:10.840 it's also an opportunity to the existential, you know, to 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:13.960 celebrate your existence, you know, to celebrate that you have 0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:17.680 a life. You didn't you know that car did not 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:20.080 hit you when you crossed the street running for the 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:23.280 ice cream truck at age ten. It missed you. So 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:25.920 now you're fortyes, so be glad. You know, you could 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:29.800 have been on the pavement, you know, or um. You 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:32.560 know that infection that you had, you know, when you 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:35.040 were twenty two, Okay, they were antibiotics for that and 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:38.159 you survived. So welcome to forty. You know, all of 0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:41.680 these existential things about your here and all the other 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:44.600 people who love you in this life are here, and 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:47.560 so your birthday is always a time to celebrate it 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:50.040 because think about the guy who wanted to have a 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:54.240 forty six birthday and he didn't because the junk driver 0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:57.080 hit him, you know, when he was thirty one, and 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:01.840 that's it. No more forty six. So if we cognitively 0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:05.639 reframe what a birthday means to emphasize the reward and 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:09.480 kind of the challenges, Yeah, they take care of themselves, 0:28:10.400 --> 0:28:12.280 then then you got it and you get you get 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:14.040 to do that every year. You know, you kind of 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:16.560 get a new lace on life every year on your birthday, 0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:19.240 and I'll take it. You know. It's better than tached 0:28:19.240 --> 0:28:22.359 time every year. So it is a reframing because I 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:24.720 think a lot of people spend their birthday jumping into 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:26.840 the future, Oh my god, I'm closer to older, and 0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:29.119 then looking back, Oh did I do everything I should 0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:32.240 have done? But you're saying no, look back and celebrate 0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:35.639 the fact that you're you're here, Like anything could have 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.760 happened that would have taken off this planet and it didn't, 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:44.760 so here you are. Yeah. I have a friend who's 0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:47.200 ninety two who runs two miles a day, and it's like, okay, 0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:50.600 I'll have what he's having. Yeah, exactly. God, I mean, 0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:53.560 I'm sure he enjoys the running, but I'm like, like 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:56.720 running now. He also has a very strict raw foods diet, 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:58.520 and I'm not I'm not sure I could handle that 0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:02.120 because I like I like my junk food. Well, plenty 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:03.960 of people have lived to a hundred on junk food. 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:16.400 That's true. We'll be right back. I know you've talked 0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:20.120 about that. You I love this. In terms of dealing 0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:26.040 with anxiety, you say that people are not really experiencing 0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:29.120 like an anticipatory anxiety about anything in their life, because 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.360 there um there. It's because they're experiencing a fear of 0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:35.200 a possible loss. I've never heard it framed that way. 0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:37.760 I love that. If you can tell us about that, well, 0:29:37.880 --> 0:29:40.600 I was. There were two guys yesterday in my practice. 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.360 They were almost backed back. And that happens sometimes where 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:47.840 you know, I'll see two clients in a day, or 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:51.360 maybe sometimes in a row, that are remarkably similar. It's 0:29:51.400 --> 0:29:53.840 like some kind of alignment of the planets that's making 0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:57.320 them think about anxiety. And sometimes something in the news. 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:02.600 I noticed that I've had days where guys will come 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.480 in and every one of them will be somewhat agitated, 0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:07.960 and then I'll say I'll get a break and I'll say, Okay, 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:11.120 what's going on. I'll turn on my my phone with 0:30:11.240 --> 0:30:14.160 the Apple something in the news, and there'll be something 0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:16.480 like a mass shooting or something, and I'm like, something 0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:19.720 is making everybody anxious today? What is it? And then 0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:22.200 lo and behold there's there's always some kind of news 0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:25.280 story that you know, just it's kind of like the 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:29.400 full moon. You know, a lot of people psych hospitals 0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:32.120 sometimes say, you know, oh boy, full moon. You know, 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:36.040 people act up. But in cognitive therapy work, I frame 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:41.760 anxiety management in certain ways. You know, it's others probably 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:45.280 do it better. But what I've come to use over 0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:49.680 a long time about we have a relationship to anxiety. 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:56.440 And I think anxiety draws on the human psychological defense mechanisms, 0:30:57.080 --> 0:31:01.240 you know, because we're programmed as people to assess and 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:04.280 respond to threats, kind of like the animal Kingdom, you know, 0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:09.320 the animal Kingdom, these these national geographic specials or something. 0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:12.720 You know, how does a muskrat deal with threats? You know? 0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:17.000 And I think sometimes anxiety means that are warning systems 0:31:17.080 --> 0:31:20.440 are out of whack, you know. So sometimes I make 0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:23.800 the analogy of anxiety like a smoke detector in your home. 0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:26.360 You know. Sometimes it's three in the morning and your 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:28.600 building has bad wiring and a fire is starting in 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:30.280 your living room and you're gonna die if you don't 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:32.560 wake up and get out, you know, So the thing 0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:35.160 goes off, Beppe, you know, get out now so that 0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:38.200 you live. Other times, you know, the smoke along goes off. 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:40.600 It just because you burned the toast, you know, and 0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:43.720 you can't wave the thing and open the windows and stuff, 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:46.720 and you have to say, smoke destector, stop, I'm fine, really, 0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.080 you know, and the smoke detector says, yeah, but I 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:51.160 smell smoke. Are you sure you're okay? Yes, I just 0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:54.000 it's burnt toast, don't worry about it. And you know, 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:57.560 our anxiety system is like that, you know, anxiety system 0:31:57.640 --> 0:31:59.760 goes off and say, are you sure this isn't a 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:02.640 day injuriest thing? Because should should we not be running? 0:32:02.680 --> 0:32:05.520 Should we not be hiding right now? And we have 0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:09.960 to say no, it's okay. It's just I'm asking my 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:12.840 boss for a raise. I am a little unpins and needles. 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.240 It's not a problem, you know. We have to talk 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:20.080 back to our anxiety mechanism. I love this. I will 0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:22.680 now put this in my tool kit of talking to 0:32:22.760 --> 0:32:24.880 it that way, that like something's checking in on me 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.120 and I have the control to say thank you for 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.640 checking in. This isn't a fire. I love it anyway, 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:34.440 Sorry interrupt going. And I think also it's about a 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:36.680 fear of loss, you know, anxiety. I think it just 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.880 means that we value something. You know, I'm anxious to 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:44.080 drive my brand new car home from the dealership and 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:47.280 get it home because it's my new baby. And you know, 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:51.280 if you're anxious, you know, the first time driving at home, well, 0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:54.560 it's because you like your new car, you know. Or 0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:58.880 if you're anxious before you give a talk at work 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:02.040 of sales, presentation and on you know, the fourth quarter 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:04.720 of sales, of course you're anxious because you want to 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:06.640 do a good job and you want the company to 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:10.360 succeed and you want the audience to appreciate your efforts. 0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:13.920 Or or an actor going on stage, gosh, and anxious 0:33:13.960 --> 0:33:16.240 before going on stage, Well, of course you are because 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:18.520 you you want to do right by the play and 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:21.800 do right by the audience and the director. And um, 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:26.000 it's not a guarantee that you will, because maybe Seen 0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:28.400 three is a little under rehearsed, you know, but you 0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:31.600 do it anyway because you know, one of my favorite 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:35.600 self help books by Susan Jeffers, I think she's gone now, 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:38.400 but it's all in the title, feel the fear and 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:41.479 do it anyway. You know, just just because you're anxious 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:43.480 about something doesn't mean that you don't do it. It 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:46.040 means that you know, okay, too bad. You're gonna have 0:33:46.200 --> 0:33:49.240 to just be uncomfortable. But that's not a reason not 0:33:49.560 --> 0:33:53.400 to go on stage or give the sales presentation or 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:55.560 ask for a raise. You know, you have to work 0:33:55.720 --> 0:33:59.360 through that, and you don't wait until you're comfortable to 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:03.120 do something, because you might wait forever and it's too important. 0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:06.240 You know, you kind of have to say not today, satan, 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:10.319 you know, to your anxiety, which is a cognitive intervention. 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:14.680 You know, um, that's thoughts stopping in cognitive behavioral therapy, 0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:19.400 or it's really it's reframing. Especially oh gosh, I have 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:23.080 to give a sales presentation, and I'm so nervous. It's 0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:26.799 I get to make a sales presentation because I've got 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:29.560 this great job. You know. They ethel Merman, the Great 0:34:29.640 --> 0:34:33.080 Broadway star. They asked her do you ever get anxious 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:36.320 before performance? And then I don't get anxious. I know 0:34:36.400 --> 0:34:38.600 what I'm gonna do. The audience ought to be anxious. 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:41.200 They don't know what they're gonna get. Oh that's great, 0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:45.520 you know, And I think that's what it's. I don't 0:34:45.520 --> 0:34:48.279 know if she was always that confident, but yeah, it's 0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:50.880 probably a thing she had to tell herself, you know, 0:34:51.320 --> 0:34:53.800 before she and out there. You know, I like the 0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:56.360 idea of the laws. So let's say someone is anxious 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:58.200 because they're about to make a presentation or they're going 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:00.560 to propose to someone, or they're gonna asked him on 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:04.239 on a date or whatever. Is like, okay, like you said, 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:05.759 of course you're angios. You want to do right by 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:07.040 the company and you want to do a good job. 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:10.799 But is underneath that the loss, like the deep anxiety 0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:13.719 is and if I don't do a good job, like 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:16.600 it gets that's where it gets disproportionate. Where it's like, 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:19.080 if I don't do a good job, like the proportionate 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:20.560 thing might be like, oh my boss would be a 0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:23.479 little disappointed, but they still value me. But the deep 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.440 like anxiety, that's not proportionate. That's the loss is like 0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:28.520 and then they'll fire me and then I'll be homeless. 0:35:28.680 --> 0:35:30.680 Or I asked this person on a date and they 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:32.440 say no, and I'm rejected and no one loves me. 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:33.880 Ever I'm alone, you know, is it? Is it that? 0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:37.919 What you mean by that? There's another thing about kind 0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:41.799 of the train or the ladder of you know, it's 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:46.480 it's filling in all these and therefores you know, it's like, 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:49.080 I'm anxious about my presentation and therefore I'm going to 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:51.320 do badly, and therefore my boss is gonna fire me, 0:35:51.400 --> 0:35:53.440 and therefore I'm going to be homeless, and therefore I'm 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:57.080 going to be whatever from there. And you know, it's 0:35:57.120 --> 0:35:59.760 it's kind of the fear fantasy or the the spiral, 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:03.719 you know, that whole downward spiral thing. And you know 0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:06.040 I said, you know, be careful of the crystal ball. 0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:10.040 You know, you just can't predict the few. The odds 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:11.719 are that you're going to do a good job, because 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:15.640 first of all, you want to, and then if you don't, 0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:20.760 you know, um, then you have to kind of adapt 0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:22.239 in the moment. You know, if you go to make 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:25.480 your sales presentation, your zip drive you know, got wet 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.359 and it doesn't work and you're without your power point 0:36:28.480 --> 0:36:31.160 or something and you have to wing It's like, well 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:34.480 then you you wing it, you know, and you're just 0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:37.360 gonna do the best you can. You know, I was 0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:39.800 coached one time by a business coach that kind of 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:44.080 Most people professionals could probably stand up and give a 0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:46.799 talk on what they do for an hour without any notes, 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:50.279 in any preparation, but if they've been doing it for 0:36:50.400 --> 0:36:54.960 a while, you know, people freak out about speaking, but 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:57.880 most people have it, especially in the Q and A. 0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:04.120 We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a 0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:14.319 quick message from our sponsors. Worked yesterday with a guy 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:17.840 who has a particularly strong case that session after session 0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:22.080 about anticipatory anxiety. You know, if you're an adult child 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:25.920 who has caretaking responsibility for elderly parents, you know there 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:29.160 might be an anticipatory anxiety about your parents getting worse 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.920 and passing away. Or if you've had a dog for 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:36.680 fifteen years, you might start to get real concerned that 0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:40.759 she might not live much longer as your pet. And 0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:43.719 you know, it's it's you can really kind of make 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.520 yourself crazy by living in the future where you're living 0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:50.840 with that loss, but you're you're feeling it today, and 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:54.200 you know that's when kind of way I think we 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:59.040 have to kind of orient ourselves to the present. You know, 0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:01.400 I think we're ring about the future is kind of 0:38:01.440 --> 0:38:04.120 an anxiety that we're borrowing from the future. And then, 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:07.000 you know, feeling bad about a lot of stuff in 0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:08.840 the past is a little bit living in the past 0:38:08.920 --> 0:38:12.200 when you're right here today. And so you know, there's 0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:15.480 a big argument for kind of living in the present. 0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:18.520 You know, it's lots of horrible things could happen in 0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:21.840 our future, because horrible things have happened in our past, 0:38:21.920 --> 0:38:25.160 but there's also great things that have happened in our 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.640 past that we felt just great about, and probably things 0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:31.560 in our future that will feel great about. And there's 0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:34.320 a there's a Shakespeare line but kind of butchering it, 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:39.480 but it roughly says, our lives are as a fabric, 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:43.000 a weave of good and ill. And now that's kind 0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:45.160 of what what that is. I mean, Okay, you have 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:47.839 to leve with the fact that, yeah, you if you're 0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:49.879 anxious that there is going to be some real ship 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.319 that's gonna happen, it's gonna hurt, It's absolutely gonna hurt. 0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:56.160 But there's also going to be some stuff. Hopefully the 0:38:56.239 --> 0:39:00.360 majority that that's good stuff too. And you know, I 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:04.520 think cognitively a tool that you always have is what 0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:07.240 social workers are taught with. What is the adaptive coping 0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:10.480 for this? No matter what happens, even if it's something 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:13.560 really bad, like you lose your job and you totally 0:39:13.600 --> 0:39:15.919 your car on the way home. Okay, that is one 0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:19.680 fucking bad day. But if you say, okay, what's the 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:22.920 adaptive coping for this, It's like, well, I call the 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:25.719 insurance company and I'm gonna get a new car soon 0:39:25.840 --> 0:39:29.839 and I'm gonna my insurance with the house and get 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:33.600 some new stuff. And you know, look at yourself, you know, 0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:37.479 are you in little pieces? We'll know I'm I'm fine. 0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:40.160 All right, Well let's start with that. Let's start with 0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:42.120 the fact that you got shoes on your feet. You 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:45.200 can walk and see and here and I'll be in 0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:47.160 poop and eat and drink and all that. So so 0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:49.120 you've got something to work with. You know, you have 0:39:49.239 --> 0:39:52.080 no house and no car, but you got shoes. Let's 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:56.160 start with that. You know. Or Louise Hayes little adage, 0:39:56.440 --> 0:40:00.439 Um Louise Hey, was this inspiration? You know her? Yeah? 0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:03.440 You know, and she uses the phrase, you know, how 0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:06.520 can I take a positive approach to this? Yeah? You know, 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:09.560 you bank the presentation and it sucks because you had 0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:12.360 bad numbers and the power point broke, and you know 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:15.399 your college is like dude, um, that's a great job 0:40:15.480 --> 0:40:17.960 and that board, you know, and then you say, how 0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:20.480 do I take a positive approach to this? You know, 0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:25.040 you might email your boss and say, I don't think 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.000 today went well. I want to revise this. How about 0:40:28.080 --> 0:40:31.080 the next staff meeting? I do an update with the 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:34.320 missing slides and should probably go yeah, that's probably a 0:40:34.360 --> 0:40:36.799 good idea because that one sucked, you know, And then 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:38.879 the next week, you know, you do it over again, 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:41.600 say sorry, guys, that didn't work out so well last week. Anyway, 0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:44.160 follow up fourth quarter is going to be there. You know. 0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:48.320 That's adaptive coping. And I love that you say positive 0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:51.000 approach and that Louise said that because you're not saying 0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:53.880 positive thinking. You're not saying, oh, it's great that I 0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:55.960 am only of my shoes, it's great. I sucked up. 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:59.719 You're saying, Okay, let me take a like like you said, 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.360 a coping, let me take, let me cope, let me 0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:05.680 you know, be honest, get in touch, try to think 0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.200 of something better for next time. I it's very realistic. 0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:11.279 Is something people can do right, It's not just think 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:14.400 positively about it. I love it, And I think the 0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:16.960 other thing it's really important to talk about, which we're 0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:20.000 not getting to it we should, is which a lot 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:22.440 of people I think would say, is say, you know, 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:24.960 that's easy for you to say, buddy boy. You know 0:41:25.160 --> 0:41:28.359 you didn't get fired from a six figure job because 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:30.759 you gave a shitty sales presentation. Now you have to 0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:33.440 do another one and your asses on the line. You know. 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:37.680 It's that idea that sometimes anxiety comes from trauma. You know, 0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:39.760 it's like, oh, I'm going to walk down the street 0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:42.000 at through in the morning because you know, I forgot 0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:43.480 something and I'm going to go look for it and 0:41:43.520 --> 0:41:46.120 in the dark alley. You know, that's a lot easier 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:49.360 to do if you weren't beaten and mugged in a 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:52.480 dark alley three years ago or thirty three years ago, 0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:56.920 you know. And so some of that is validating the 0:41:57.040 --> 0:41:59.880 trauma and the loss that we've been through, because when 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:03.520 we've been through a very painful loss, you know, there's 0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:05.680 a part of our psyche that's kind of say, okay, 0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:08.520 note to self. There are dangers out there. There are 0:42:08.600 --> 0:42:11.040 muggers out there, there are drunk drivers out there, there 0:42:11.120 --> 0:42:15.319 are bad critical bosses out there. But again, that's where 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:17.160 you have to bring it to the present and say, 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:20.719 I realized, you know, I was really upset by being 0:42:20.800 --> 0:42:23.959 mugged in the dark alley. However, that was another city. 0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:27.719 It was years ago. I'm with somebody, you know, I'm 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:30.759 with my boyfriend, and my boyfriend's a cop. You know, 0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:34.320 I'm now accompanied by a cop on a dark alley, 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:37.000 and you know, I'm going to look and see where 0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:39.719 I've dropped my wallet or something. And it's well lit, 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:42.160 and you know, the chances of being mugged they're there, 0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:45.319 but they're not so great that I can't go look 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:48.000 for my wallet in the dark alley and kind of 0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:51.239 revisit the same circumstances that you know, I worked with 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:55.760 somebody who had a phobia about driving because he had 0:42:56.960 --> 0:43:02.160 two bad car accidents. And you know, to rehabilitate from 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:05.160 the anxiety of driving when you've had two accidents, that 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:07.839 that's a real process. You know, you have to kind 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:10.200 of validate that it was painful to go through that. 0:43:10.880 --> 0:43:14.040 But at the same time, that does not mean we 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:18.239 don't say and therefore never drive again. We say, and 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:22.080 therefore you've been through a lot that was hard to 0:43:22.160 --> 0:43:25.839 get through. Let's rehabilitate so that you can live your 0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:29.000 life as a driver again. Yeah. So, I you know, 0:43:29.080 --> 0:43:31.520 when I have a client in therapy for anxiety, I 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.120 look for trauma, and you know, sometimes we have to 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.960 validate and have them process the trauma before we can 0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:41.719 get to day to day anxiety management. You know, it's 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:45.400 like a prerequisite course for the anxiety management is trauma recovery. 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:50.080 And what would you say could be categorized as trauma? 0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:52.960 I mean, are you looking for like big T trauma 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:57.359 or can you say maybe trauma for them was losing 0:43:57.400 --> 0:44:00.160 a pet or you know whatever. Does it matter? Well, 0:44:00.200 --> 0:44:02.879 I think you know, it's it's very subjective because it's 0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:06.560 also cultural. You know, UM, the definition and the the 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:09.040 d s M, you know, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:12.440 NONM disort is by the American Psychiatric Association, you know, 0:44:12.560 --> 0:44:16.600 has altered the definition of post traumatic stress disorder over 0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:20.040 the years because they took out something that was in 0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:25.759 a previous edition of you know, Outside Normal Functioning or 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:28.759 outside normal circumstances, and it's like, well, but if you 0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:31.640 live in a war zone, you know, in Syria or something, 0:44:32.239 --> 0:44:34.759 you know, bombs are in everyday occurrence. So it's not like, 0:44:35.080 --> 0:44:37.000 you know, if if you were living in l A 0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:40.880 and there were bombs going off everywhere, that would be unusual, 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:43.560 but not in the war zone. So it's so it's 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:47.400 it's somewhat culture bound because I think a trauma can 0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:50.040 be anything that's a trauma to that person that kind 0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:53.480 of rips the fabric of their adaptive coping skills, that 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:58.759 overwhelms their ability to cope. And you know, sometimes we say, well, 0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:02.120 that's not a bad stress, get over it. But who's 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:05.560 to say what's a bad stressor or not. You know, 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:08.399 it's like that line in Antimame with the Society Girls. 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:10.480 As I stepped on the ping pong ball, it was 0:45:10.560 --> 0:45:16.160 gashly and in the ping pong tournament, you know, and 0:45:16.280 --> 0:45:18.920 it's like okay to her, it was Josh gosh like, 0:45:19.320 --> 0:45:21.760 but you know, to us, it's like, honey, get over yourself. 0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:24.840 And you know, it's we don't we don't want to 0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:29.160 minimize other people's trauma because it has the most meaning 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:32.960 to them. Yeah, you know it's I've dealt with guys 0:45:33.160 --> 0:45:36.360 who have had breakups after you know, five weeks of dating, 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:38.040 and I kind of feel like something, dude, it was 0:45:38.160 --> 0:45:41.160 five weeks. Come on, But you know, if it was 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:44.560 a five weeks that meant a lot of things to them. 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:47.080 You have to work with it as if it were 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:51.160 five years or whatever, because we're kind of the definers 0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:54.200 of what our trauma is, of what it what it 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.680 means to us and why and if you if you 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:00.360 deal with it that way, you're giving them to tools, 0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:03.120 whereas if it's like, hey, just learn how to be like, hey, 0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:04.880 it was just five weeks. I don't know what how 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:06.560 much of a tool that is. If you do treat 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:08.919 it like it was five years, now they're going to learn, 0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:13.160 you know, grief skills, survival skills, whatever right that they 0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:15.640 need for the next time, because they might the next 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:17.359 time they fall in love and through that type of person, 0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:20.440 it might have another five week relationship that devastates them. 0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:23.160 Now they have that life experience under their belt that 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:27.920 you've helped them through, especially when we understand trauma is 0:46:28.280 --> 0:46:33.080 a social experience, it's a cultural experience, it's a neurobiological experience. 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:36.120 That's the other thing I think if if those neurobiological 0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:40.640 defenses get activated, that gets activated regardless of whether we 0:46:40.719 --> 0:46:44.200 think the stimulus warrants that or not. You know, it's 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:49.239 if we get goose bumps watching a horror movie, you know, 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:52.840 because we're scared. The person next to us might be like, 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:54.920 this is boring, Why do you have goose bumps? You know, 0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:58.440 but the other persons like, yeah, this is really scared. Whatever. 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:01.360 You know, It's it's a little bit subjective. But but 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:06.160 once that system gets activated, all the stuff around trauma 0:47:07.120 --> 0:47:11.040 is right there, reporting for duty and and that's part 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:14.120 of that's kind of as a psychological process, but it's 0:47:14.120 --> 0:47:19.240 also a neurobiological process. Yeah, that's why trauma recovery involves 0:47:19.360 --> 0:47:23.200 so much neurobiology. I used to teach about that. It's 0:47:23.239 --> 0:47:25.279 about how the left brain is talking to the right 0:47:25.360 --> 0:47:28.440 brain and you know, things like that. You know, but 0:47:28.920 --> 0:47:31.560 trauma has to be processed like we're digesting a meal 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:38.879 in our g I system, anxiety bites will be right back. 0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:48.960 After a quick little message from one of our sponsors, Well, 0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:51.040 I like what you said to about like back in 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:54.200 the anticipatory anxiety of you know, my parents are getting older, 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:57.399 they could die my pet. It's like you can't say, 0:47:57.719 --> 0:47:59.919 unlike someone who's saying the sky is falling, you can't say, 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:02.520 that'sn't gonna happen, right, it's like going to validate that 0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:04.239 is going to happen. But I love what you said 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:06.920 about don't borrow, you know, borrowing from the future. And 0:48:07.000 --> 0:48:11.359 I love that example because literally, if you think about it, um, 0:48:12.160 --> 0:48:14.600 if you keep borrowing, if we're talking about money, if 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:17.239 you kept borrowing from your savings to buy a car, 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:20.040 buy something fun by the time you really need it, 0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:22.160 and maybe you're too tired to really work a full 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:24.600 time job and you need your retirement savings and you 0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:27.320 get there and it's empty. You know you're on empty 0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:30.080 when you get there. So if you're borrowing like from 0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:33.400 your future and trying to grieve now, I don't know 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:37.040 how because you're not really doing it right now. By 0:48:37.520 --> 0:48:39.480 you're not like actually grieving now, you're doing some weird 0:48:39.520 --> 0:48:41.279 anxiety things. So like by the time it's time to 0:48:41.360 --> 0:48:44.799 grieve right, I imagine they have no practice in doing 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:47.320 so correctly. And so same with trauma, Like if you 0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:51.800 don't validate it, they're not going to get better, like 0:48:51.920 --> 0:48:54.520 you have to validate yes, this happened, and you have 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:58.560 to validate yes, these things will happen. Now what you know, 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:02.800 here's our room. Yeah, and it's existentially you know, accepting that. 0:49:04.000 --> 0:49:06.400 You know, I call it the ocean moment. It's like, 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.840 you know, it's um when you realize what's going on 0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:12.520 with you where you have these symptoms and it's like, 0:49:12.520 --> 0:49:14.120 I don't know why I'm doing this, what's going on 0:49:14.280 --> 0:49:16.440 with me? And then you talk to a therapist and 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:20.480 it's like, I think you have PTSD and there's that, 0:49:20.719 --> 0:49:23.400 or I think you have generalized anxiety. Just sort of 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:25.680 there's this moment of oh shit, really I'm one of 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:29.640 those I've got a diagnosis now. But you know, you 0:49:29.760 --> 0:49:33.040 can transcend it and say, because the next question should 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:37.480 be okay, how do I adaptively cope with that? And 0:49:37.640 --> 0:49:40.840 you say, well, you know, let's do this, this and this. 0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:46.719 And it's not only I think we're preventing against you know, 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:50.600 calamity in the future, but I think it's also about building. 0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:53.200 You know, you might be oh, I'm already even gonna 0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:55.040 get old and I'm gonna be penaltist and I'm gonna 0:49:55.040 --> 0:49:56.920 be like that old homeless guy saw in the street 0:49:57.040 --> 0:49:59.520 last week, and it's like, well, you know, there are 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:03.360 ways to do your very best to avoid that. And 0:50:03.920 --> 0:50:05.799 you know, I don't want to blame the poor homeless guy, 0:50:05.960 --> 0:50:08.680 but something went wrong along the way that he ended 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:12.160 up like that. You know, um, bad fortune, which is 0:50:12.280 --> 0:50:15.120 part of it, and possibly bad choices which are a 0:50:15.200 --> 0:50:16.520 part of it. You know, it's some kind of a 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:19.680 combination of what happens to us and what we do. 0:50:20.560 --> 0:50:22.560 And so a lot of what I do, from a 0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:26.640 very positive psychology standpoint and even a coaching standpoint, is 0:50:26.760 --> 0:50:30.000 to say, at every phase in life, I think every 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:32.120 day in life, you say, how do I put my 0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:35.000 best foot forward? You know, it's like if I don't 0:50:35.000 --> 0:50:36.320 want to end up home? Was like the guy I 0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:40.879 saw last week, really, what's in your retirement fund? Well? 0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:45.440 Two cents? Okay? Uh? Could you you know, do you 0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:48.800 have twenty bucks? And well, sure, I got three dollars 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:52.600 in savings. Okay, take thirty of that or that and 0:50:52.640 --> 0:50:55.719 go on Amazon and buy a used copy of a 0:50:55.800 --> 0:51:00.160 Susie Ormon book on money management. You got six san 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:02.799 bucks with chipping to get Yeah, all right, you get 0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:04.879 that copy and maybe it's a Little Dog here because 0:51:04.920 --> 0:51:07.080 it's used. But you you read every word of that book, 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:10.680 can do everything Susie Orman says, and you just reduce 0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:13.719 your chances. It didn't eliminate them, but it reduces your 0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:16.600 chances of being old and homeless. You know, if you 0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:19.080 do everything that Susie Orman says in her books, or 0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:23.320 Jane Bryant Quinn says in her books, you just reduce 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:26.400 the probability of calamity financially quite a bit. And you 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:29.880 could say that about anything if you, um, you know, 0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:32.200 I had a kidney stone last year, so of course 0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:35.400 I was like, what is the adaptive coping for kidney stone? 0:51:35.400 --> 0:51:40.279 And I found a YouTube channel, um Jill Harris, and 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:42.440 you know she said, how do you eat better to 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:45.280 reduce your chances of recurring kidney stone? It's just whatever 0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:48.799 it is, I think you research it and say how 0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:51.800 can I put my best foot for my mom survived 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:55.759 cancer three times. You're in colon and breast and she's 0:51:55.800 --> 0:51:59.040 eighty seven now, and you know, well, how do you 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:01.640 do that? It's like all you you know what early 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:05.279 symptoms are. If you have them, you get checked. If 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.360 you have that, you get good treatment. You follow a 0:52:08.440 --> 0:52:12.960 treatment plan. Thousands of more and more hundreds of thousands, 0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:16.880 millions die of cancer. But you reduce the odds that 0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:20.360 that something bad is going to happen by saying, what 0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:24.040 is the absolute best set of choices that I can 0:52:24.120 --> 0:52:28.720 make that gets me ahead in some way? Health, dating, sex, 0:52:28.880 --> 0:52:31.520 I certified sex there because you know, there are all 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.680 these things that we can do about. I think sometimes 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:37.560 when we were dealing with anxiety and focusing on laws 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:40.400 with the threat of loss, what's the other side to that? 0:52:40.560 --> 0:52:44.960 How are we focusing on gain and growth? Yeah? Is 0:52:45.040 --> 0:52:46.880 this what? Because I was going to ask you about 0:52:46.920 --> 0:52:50.000 positive psychology, the positive psychology method, because I saw that 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:52.480 on your website and I actually had never heard of 0:52:52.560 --> 0:52:54.799 it before, and so it sounds like that's what part 0:52:54.840 --> 0:52:57.040 of it is. It almost has that like coaching element 0:52:57.120 --> 0:53:00.160 to it in a way. It's not positive like like um, 0:53:00.640 --> 0:53:03.800 hippie dippy, like just manifest the money, but you're just 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:07.600 saying like you're taking a positive step, like we'll start saving. 0:53:07.719 --> 0:53:10.120 I mean, you know, there's the things we can control, 0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:13.280 things we can't. One thing you can control, start saving, 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:16.800 you know, Yeah, you can't control the stock market crashes 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:19.520 after that, but just start saving and it does step 0:53:19.600 --> 0:53:22.200 to the brain about a positive mindset, you know, the 0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:24.480 acting about to go on stage, that I can't go 0:53:24.600 --> 0:53:29.120 out there and look like an amateur. Okay, that's that's great. 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:32.120 But see that's very different from I'm gonna go out 0:53:32.200 --> 0:53:34.560 there and I'm going to give a good performance because 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:37.000 I'm going to do justice to the script and the directing, 0:53:37.120 --> 0:53:39.680 and I'm going to tell this story the best I can. 0:53:40.480 --> 0:53:43.319 To see the difference there, it's it's there's a real 0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:48.759 difference between I don't want to lose and I will win. 0:53:49.719 --> 0:53:51.759 I also hear in that example of the actor a 0:53:51.840 --> 0:53:54.160 little bit like with all the things they want from 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:56.600 it and that they plan to do, none of them 0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:58.600 really are about the actor. Like I hear a little 0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:00.719 bit like getting out of self, you know. With that, 0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:03.120 it's like I want to honor the work. I want 0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:05.760 to do a good job. You know, I'm just the vessel. 0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:08.839 Like there's something about that that I feel like must 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:10.759 be part of it too. Like if you're sitting there 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:15.360 anxious about your future, someone's offering you some practical steps. 0:54:16.760 --> 0:54:18.600 If you're like, no, I think I'll just sit here 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:20.719 and worry. It's like they want to cling to their 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:24.560 self and their ideas and if you just say we'll 0:54:24.640 --> 0:54:27.200 start saving. It's kind of like, I don't know if 0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:31.400 there's like a lack of not narcissism, but there's like 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.680 a lack of thinking about all the time a little bit. Yeah, 0:54:35.200 --> 0:54:38.120 A good way to you know, help a lot of 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:40.880 things is to kind of get out of yourself, you know. 0:54:41.160 --> 0:54:44.080 And yeah, there's that cliche, best way to help yourself 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:45.880 is to help others. I think there's a lot to 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:48.959 that because it takes the you know, the belly button 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:52.400 gazing and the ruminating. You know, ruminating is really an 0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:57.759 anxiety symptom or perseverating on something, so you know, it's 0:54:58.120 --> 0:55:00.120 you also have to look at the secondary game we 0:55:00.239 --> 0:55:02.600 call it. You know, some people have a secondary gain 0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:06.720 to being sick because they never have to take responsibility 0:55:06.800 --> 0:55:12.080 for anything. Or what secondary gain and anxiety might be, 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:17.480 you know, kind of unconsciously wanting people to take care 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:21.640 of you because they never really have. Ye that that 0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:25.520 can be something about that you know about um, is 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:29.520 there a downside to being relaxed and confident? Well, maybe 0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:34.080 there's a responsibility there. If you're relaxed and confident, you're 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:37.399 expected to do great things. Whereas you an, I don't 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:38.800 know about this. I don't know about this. I'm just 0:55:38.840 --> 0:55:42.399 gonna I'm just gonna stay inside and hide. It's like, well, 0:55:42.719 --> 0:55:46.120 how convenient you know that doesn't take much effort, that 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:49.359 that can be confused with introversion and social anxiety, which 0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:51.640 is its own Well, you know, I was going to 0:55:51.760 --> 0:55:53.480 bring that up, but I love you are the only 0:55:53.560 --> 0:55:55.719 person to say secondary gain. And I think I've heard 0:55:55.760 --> 0:55:57.520 that somewhere in my life. But I love it because 0:55:58.800 --> 0:56:00.400 you know, again, I'm just a pot I'm not a 0:56:00.520 --> 0:56:03.800 THERAPISTMS podcast or about anxiety. And the people will write 0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:06.480 to me and you know, like I'll do an episode 0:56:06.520 --> 0:56:10.160 where the guest clearly lays out this is how you 0:56:10.960 --> 0:56:13.239 da da um, you know, get over your fear of 0:56:13.320 --> 0:56:16.120 drawing driving okay, And someone will write me, I just 0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:19.560 heard your episode about fear of driving. Nothing was left 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:22.040 on the table in that episode, like you will if 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:24.520 you do these things and work with people, get over 0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:27.719 your fearture. And they go, um, it didn't help me, um, 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:30.120 because I have the worst fear of driving more than anybody. 0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:34.200 And they'll say that and I can just like intuitively 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:39.120 feel that they didn't listen to they didn't put anything 0:56:39.160 --> 0:56:42.800 to practice, but they need to be the most anxious 0:56:42.880 --> 0:56:45.880 driver who ever lived. Because if that's true and no 0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:50.160 solutions work, then they're just they can't drive. There's no solutions, 0:56:50.200 --> 0:56:52.640 and so that's simple, you know. And then once people here, 0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:54.359 you're not a lot of people don't want to hear 0:56:54.640 --> 0:56:57.719 you're not alone. This is normal, there's a solution. They're like, 0:56:57.800 --> 0:57:01.280 oh no, it's like you've just given them homework, not hope. 0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:03.839 You know, it just depends on the personality, I assume, right, 0:57:04.280 --> 0:57:07.880 and you have to be willing to change. Louise Hey 0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:10.480 was real big on that, you know, she said it 0:57:10.560 --> 0:57:14.160 was someone's down there and they're reaching up. I will 0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:17.000 reach down my hand and pull them up. But I 0:57:17.080 --> 0:57:19.840 will not take their hand and have them pull me down, 0:57:20.720 --> 0:57:24.080 you know, because you know that that's you got to 0:57:24.120 --> 0:57:27.280 be careful with that stuff, because you know it's about 0:57:27.360 --> 0:57:30.600 identity shift. You know, if you're you know, big, were 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:34.000 big ap on your shirt, anxious person. You know, if 0:57:34.120 --> 0:57:37.439 you weren't the anxious person, and what would you be, Well, 0:57:37.640 --> 0:57:41.000 maybe you would be the neighborhood's greatest dog trainer, or 0:57:41.080 --> 0:57:44.880 the city's greatest architect, or the city's greatest attorney. You know, 0:57:44.960 --> 0:57:48.280 there has to be that identity shift from what's familiar 0:57:48.360 --> 0:57:52.720 and even comfortable, comfortable in the uncomfortable, you know, like 0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:57.080 the hypochondriac um and have an identity? Shall I do 0:57:57.200 --> 0:58:00.560 a lot in substance vieuse recovery When I worked with 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:02.720 so many gay men who have gotten in over their 0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:06.760 head with Crystal Matthews, A big part of it is identity. 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:09.120 I say, what are you? Who would you be if 0:58:09.160 --> 0:58:13.560 you were not a Crystal methodict, because that's their primary identity. 0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:17.800 You know. It's like, well, you know, to start, you know, 0:58:17.840 --> 0:58:20.560 I used to be this great architect. It's like, what 0:58:20.680 --> 0:58:23.320 have you done lately? Well? Nothing, I've been too messed up. 0:58:23.400 --> 0:58:26.919 It's like, well, how about being the great architect again? 0:58:27.000 --> 0:58:29.480 What would that take? No, I'll going to a a 0:58:29.640 --> 0:58:32.840 every morning before work. Okay, go to every every morning 0:58:32.880 --> 0:58:36.200 before work, and then focus on you know, the new 0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:38.480 building on Third Street, the big blue and you like it. 0:58:38.640 --> 0:58:41.800 Will know because it did did it's not environmental and 0:58:41.960 --> 0:58:43.680 they should have fixed it. All right, Well, then you 0:58:43.960 --> 0:58:46.280 do you do it, you know, go build a building 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:50.280 that is environmentally friendly and you know, long story short, 0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:52.280 you know, that's that's what he did. You know, he 0:58:52.400 --> 0:58:56.560 got back into work. He he not everybody needs twelve star. 0:58:56.680 --> 0:58:59.200 I've worked with guys who've had success with and without 0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:03.040 twelve stuff. I would, but you know, he recovered and 0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:08.360 got married, and you know, he posted it on Facebook. 0:59:08.400 --> 0:59:11.920 I'm normally not Facebook friends with clients, but somehow we 0:59:12.080 --> 0:59:15.880 ended up, and you know, and he posted a picture 0:59:15.920 --> 0:59:20.240 from his wedding and I commented, you know, congratulations, and 0:59:20.480 --> 0:59:23.360 he wrote back, well, a lot of that's due to you. 0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:27.640 And that's you know, that's the greatest compliment because he 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:32.080 went from you know, shooting up a needle in his 0:59:32.240 --> 0:59:34.520 arm three times a day or whatever it was, to 0:59:34.840 --> 0:59:38.640 not doing that at all, and you know, and that's 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:41.520 a success. You know, It's a shift and identity. And 0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:44.280 I think a lot of people could say if they're 0:59:44.280 --> 0:59:47.320 dealing with an identity that's that doesn't feel right to them. 0:59:47.440 --> 0:59:50.520 You know, I'm the unemployed person or I'm the person 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:54.720 who's underemployed, Say to yourself, what is the identity I'm 0:59:54.760 --> 0:59:58.280 trying to cultivate. Do that with actors all the time. 0:59:58.400 --> 1:00:01.800 You know, I'm a and server, but what I want 1:00:01.840 --> 1:00:04.960 to be is a sitcom star. It's like, well, okay, 1:00:05.080 --> 1:00:07.000 that's one of the hardest things you can ever ever 1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:11.600 do in Hollywood. But you know it's it's possible. You know, 1:00:12.560 --> 1:00:15.760 they right checks every day to sitcom stars on umpteen 1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:19.360 different shows. You know, work for somebody entertainment payroll. It's like, 1:00:19.440 --> 1:00:21.840 you know, there's a lot of checks that go out. Yeah, 1:00:22.520 --> 1:00:24.200 and you know, but but it is kind of a 1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:28.120 shift in identity and and processing. The therapists use something 1:00:28.200 --> 1:00:31.520 go motivational interviewing about change about and we say what 1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:33.360 are the pros and cons of that? You know, if 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:35.480 you said to somebody, what are the pros and cons 1:00:36.040 --> 1:00:40.560 of your anxiety being resolved? They what do you mean cons? 1:00:40.680 --> 1:00:43.600 It's great, It's like, no, look closer. There would be 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:47.280 some cons to you changing the life that you've known 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:51.120 for years now. Yeah, and you know you get out 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:54.600 of the sick role. It's interesting, like some people in 1:00:54.640 --> 1:00:56.520 your life might want you to stay that small some 1:00:56.760 --> 1:00:58.640 some don't you know, who knows. You might have to 1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:01.480 give up the friends you have that are uh, you know, 1:01:01.520 --> 1:01:04.040 as they say in twelve Supercovery lower companions, you know, 1:01:04.200 --> 1:01:07.360 you might have to meet people that um give you 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:08.880 a run for your money. You might have to meet 1:01:08.920 --> 1:01:11.880 other successful architects, and that's kind of scary and I 1:01:12.240 --> 1:01:16.160 almost wish there was an intervention process for people with anxiety, 1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:18.120 not to bully them, but in the sense that your 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:21.200 family and friends sit around and they tell you, like 1:01:22.080 --> 1:01:25.120 who you could be if you didn't wear the identity 1:01:25.160 --> 1:01:27.360 of anxious person, like if you got help, Like I 1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:29.520 see you differently, the news of yourself. You know, you 1:01:29.680 --> 1:01:33.000 used to be whatever, you know, whatever, Because I think 1:01:33.000 --> 1:01:34.640 a lot of people don't know how to deal with 1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:36.280 the anxious person in their life, and they kind of 1:01:36.360 --> 1:01:39.960 just ignore it. Everyone pretends everything's okay. And I don't 1:01:40.000 --> 1:01:42.040 know how anyone would move out of that identity if 1:01:42.080 --> 1:01:45.480 they didn't feel um, I don't they weren't encouraged or 1:01:45.800 --> 1:01:48.080 um if they didn't know that others saw them as 1:01:48.320 --> 1:01:51.160 having that potential, you know. I think it's it's both 1:01:51.240 --> 1:01:53.720 the support and the challenge, which of course therapists do 1:01:53.800 --> 1:01:56.560 all the time. If you only challenge people, they'd be like, 1:01:56.640 --> 1:01:58.600 fuck you, buddy, I can get beat up somewhere else. 1:01:58.880 --> 1:02:03.080 If you only part them, then they never change. It's like, 1:02:03.160 --> 1:02:05.440 oh yeah, he was very nice as a therapist. He'd 1:02:05.440 --> 1:02:07.920 be a very pleasant guy. Why did you leave him? Well, 1:02:08.000 --> 1:02:11.280 I didn't make any progress, you know, And so I 1:02:11.680 --> 1:02:13.880 joke with clients. Sorry too, I'm gonna beat up on 1:02:13.920 --> 1:02:15.760 you today because I think you're making a wrong choice 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.600 or something like that, you know. And it's both. It's 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:21.920 it's the dichotomy of I hear you because I think 1:02:21.960 --> 1:02:24.680 anxious people need to be heard. I have this fear. 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:27.800 Why well, because of this? Why because of this? You know, 1:02:28.200 --> 1:02:31.120 you want to hear them out. But at the same time, 1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:33.680 there's just a little bit of Okay, I hear you, 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:36.800 But suck it up, you know, feel the fear and 1:02:37.080 --> 1:02:40.080 do it anyway, because at some point you have to 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:42.760 think what you're trying to do with your life is 1:02:42.880 --> 1:02:45.960 too important for your anxiety to hold you back. That's 1:02:46.000 --> 1:02:50.200 too much power. Oh I love that. Yeah, And you 1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:52.800 focus on what you want to do or what what 1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:55.160 do I want to do that my anxiety is keeping 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:57.040 me from And you've got to walk through it like 1:02:57.120 --> 1:02:59.800 you're walking for a burning building, in order to get 1:03:00.080 --> 1:03:02.640 the other side and say, Okay, now I can drive, 1:03:02.800 --> 1:03:04.720 Now I can fly. I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna go 1:03:04.760 --> 1:03:07.600 to my niece's wedding in Poughkeepsie. I'm gonna fly tomorrow, 1:03:08.080 --> 1:03:09.680 you know. And it's because you want to be there 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:12.360 at the wedding and say congratulations, honey, this is your 1:03:12.440 --> 1:03:15.560 dream wedding. Congratulations, you know, and you want to be there. 1:03:15.720 --> 1:03:18.480 You focus on what's on the other side of the challenge. 1:03:19.760 --> 1:03:23.000 Is there anything any words of wisdom that like, just 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:25.919 someone is listening, they want to take the first step 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:28.040 to going to therapy. They're like, I do and know 1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:29.800 if I have this bad note and whatever, you want 1:03:29.840 --> 1:03:33.360 to say to anyone out there that is thinking about 1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:38.960 taking that step and starting therapy, starting therapy, just well, 1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:42.919 I think people say, you know, they think that there's 1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:45.760 some kind of a high threshold for therapy. It's like, oh, well, 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:47.800 you know, I mean, I'm a mess every day, but 1:03:47.960 --> 1:03:51.200 I don't need therapy. I'm not I'm not crazy. I 1:03:51.320 --> 1:03:54.640 just you know, drink myself into oblivion every day or whatever. 1:03:54.960 --> 1:03:58.280 And it's they think it's some high bar to you know, 1:03:58.480 --> 1:04:01.080 you that you need therapy. You know, the bar for 1:04:01.200 --> 1:04:04.880 going into therapy is just having any kind of goal. Well, 1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:07.000 I don't really have a goal except well, you know, 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:08.720 I want to raise because I've been in my job 1:04:08.800 --> 1:04:10.480 for four years and I wanted to tell my cheap 1:04:10.520 --> 1:04:12.560 boss to give me a raise. Okay, that's a goal, 1:04:12.760 --> 1:04:16.240 because you could go into therapy and say, I need 1:04:16.360 --> 1:04:18.520 to build my skills in a sort of communication because 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:20.880 I want to ask my boss for a raise, you know, 1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:24.600 or or anything. There's really nothing too mild to bring 1:04:24.720 --> 1:04:27.600 to therapy if it's important to you. You know, you 1:04:27.800 --> 1:04:30.920 you don't have to be have you know, associate identity 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:34.960 disorder in order to therapy, and you know, and you're 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:38.200 because it usually means that it's part of a broader growth, 1:04:39.080 --> 1:04:41.680 you know. So anytime you go to therapy, it's like 1:04:41.760 --> 1:04:43.960 putting a little seedling and sticking it on the window 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:46.080 sill in bright sunlight, because you know it's going to 1:04:46.160 --> 1:04:53.680 grow in the light of that support. Hey, hope you 1:04:53.840 --> 1:04:58.560 enjoyed my conversation with Ken Howard. So here are someon 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:00.960 takeaways from this episode. Again, everything you need to know 1:05:01.000 --> 1:05:03.680 about Ken is in the show notes. If you want 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:06.440 to follow me on social media, I'm at Jen Kirkman 1:05:06.520 --> 1:05:09.720 on Twitter and on Instagram as well. Send an email 1:05:09.760 --> 1:05:12.040 to the show Anxiety Bites Weekly at gmail dot com. 1:05:12.160 --> 1:05:13.800 We might read it on the air. And don always 1:05:13.800 --> 1:05:16.360 say we it's me. Do you hear any other people hosting? 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:20.960 Here we Go? Here are some takeaways from this episode 1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:23.200 and you Get You can also find them on Jen 1:05:23.320 --> 1:05:26.480 Kirkman dot com click Anxiety Bites. Links are in the 1:05:26.680 --> 1:05:30.400 show notes. Okay Can saw during the AIDS crisis that 1:05:30.440 --> 1:05:33.400 there was also an epidemic of anxiety, anxiety about getting 1:05:33.520 --> 1:05:36.520 HIV and anxiety about having it and not knowing what 1:05:36.680 --> 1:05:42.600 course it would take. Developmental psychology and existential psychology look 1:05:42.720 --> 1:05:46.760 at things like what gives life meaning and purpose For 1:05:46.840 --> 1:05:49.880 anyone with birthday anxiety, Instead of worrying about the future 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:52.200 or regretting the past, try to stay in the present 1:05:52.280 --> 1:05:55.480 moment and celebrate that you're alive, here and now. If 1:05:55.520 --> 1:05:57.880 you can emphasize the joys of each phase of life 1:05:57.960 --> 1:06:00.880 and minimize the risks of each phase of life, that 1:06:01.040 --> 1:06:05.480 can help with confidence, which can alleviate anxiety. You can 1:06:05.560 --> 1:06:07.880 think of anxiety like a smoke detector that's going off 1:06:07.920 --> 1:06:09.760 in your home, which is great when there's a fire, 1:06:10.320 --> 1:06:12.880 but the anxiety smoke detector only goes off when there 1:06:13.000 --> 1:06:15.560 is no fire. You're just cooking some toast and the 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.800 toaster and you don't have to respond to the anxiety 1:06:19.200 --> 1:06:23.080 as if there is a real fire. Sometimes the underlying 1:06:23.120 --> 1:06:25.440 reason that someone feels anxious in a situation is that 1:06:25.960 --> 1:06:30.080 they're worried about experiencing a loss. And anything that we 1:06:30.200 --> 1:06:33.400 care about deeply can cause us anxiety for that very reason, 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:38.600 we are afraid of losing it. When we feel anticipatory anxiety, 1:06:39.080 --> 1:06:41.760 we are borrowing from the future, and we need to 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:45.040 orient ourselves to the present instead of trying to feel 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:49.760 a future loss today. There is always an adaptive coping 1:06:49.800 --> 1:06:52.240 mechanism for any bad thing that can happen to us, 1:06:52.480 --> 1:06:55.800 which involves taking the next best step to solve a problem. 1:06:57.920 --> 1:07:01.120 Sometimes a client in therapy for anxiety is really actually 1:07:01.200 --> 1:07:04.000 experiencing trauma, and they have to be helped to work 1:07:04.120 --> 1:07:08.040 on and process that before getting to work cognitively on 1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:11.840 the anxiety. In that case, the prerequisite course for anxiety 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:17.640 management is trauma recovery. Trauma is a social experience, a 1:07:17.760 --> 1:07:22.880 cultural experience, and a neurobiological experience. Trauma recovery involves a 1:07:22.960 --> 1:07:27.240 lot of neurobiology. It has to be processed like digesting 1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:31.240 food in the GI system has to be processed. When 1:07:31.320 --> 1:07:35.240 people are working through addiction, recovery or anxiety recovery. They 1:07:35.360 --> 1:07:37.400 are going to have a new life on the other side, 1:07:37.440 --> 1:07:40.680 which means in a way, they're shedding their previous identity 1:07:41.240 --> 1:07:46.160 as that always anxious or addicted person. A therapist job 1:07:46.280 --> 1:07:50.440 is to support but also challenge a patient. Anyone can 1:07:50.480 --> 1:07:53.000 go to therapy. You do not need to have any 1:07:53.080 --> 1:07:55.640 kind of mental health disorder. You could see a therapist 1:07:56.000 --> 1:07:58.480 just to get some tools in order to achieve a 1:07:58.560 --> 1:08:02.240 life goal. There you go, Thanks for joining me on 1:08:02.320 --> 1:08:07.040 another episode, and just remember anxiety bites, but you're in control. 1:08:12.360 --> 1:08:14.640 For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I 1:08:14.800 --> 1:08:17.800 Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 1:08:17.880 --> 1:08:18.679 your favorite shows.