1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Long Shot is a production of McClatchy Studios and I 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. A listener note this episode contains adult language 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: and adult themes, including sexual coercion and emotional abuse. I'm 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: alexandreav and this is a bonus feature for Payback. As 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: you heard in part six Late Now reporting for this podcast, 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: two former National Women's Soccer League players leveld allegations of 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: sexual coercion and emotional abuse against Jessica McDonald's longtime coach, 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: Paul Reiley. Those allegations first appeared in The Athletic in 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: a story by Meg Lenihan. At the time, Riley was 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: the head coach of the North Carolina Courage. But those 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: allegations were just the latest scandal involving leadership throughout the NWSL. 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: In fact, during my year of reporting for this podcast, 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: scandals involving sexual harassment, abuse, or misconduct on the part 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: of mail coaches made headlines across the sports world and 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: SoC It's the fifth VSL coach accused of misconduct this 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: year alone. In gymnastics. Charge has announced today range from 17 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: human trafficking to criminal sexual conduct and swimming grooming her 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: for a sexual relationship when she was just thirteen years 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: old and beyond. This is a systemic problem that doesn't 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: get addressed because the adults in the room don't stand up, 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: and that has to stop. In this episode, here from 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: an expert that producer Catta Stevens and I found particularly 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: informative on this topic. I am Dr Tanya Pruitt White. 24 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: I create space for primarily athletes, a lot of female athletes, 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: to heal from harm that we have collectively experienced within sport. 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Dr White is a trained survivor, advocate, and scholar on 27 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: sexual misconduct prevention and sports psychology. She co authored the 28 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: book Examining and Mitigating Sexual Misconduct in Sport and what 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: I do is talk about hard topics that oftentimes are 30 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: dismissed within athletic departments and organizations. But emerged from this 31 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: conversation was a fuller picture of the complex psychological dynamics 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: and the coach athlete relationship, the ways those relationships can 33 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: go so wrong, and how athletes today are redefining their 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: roles as advocates. This conversation has been edited for length 35 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: and clarity. Hellsten, Hi, Dr White, It's so nice to 36 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: meet you. How are you? I'm well, how are you 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: both great. We really appreciate your time. I think even 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: just like kind of your background and title is a 39 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: good place to start, and what you've written about really 40 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: kind of overlaps a lot with allegations of misconduct that 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: we've seen in the end of us L. Can you 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: explain that a little bit more and how long you've 43 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: been doing this type of work? Yeah? Absolutely so. When 44 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I was a professor in New York City, I received 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,839 Speaker 1: a call from my father that my former coach being 46 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: accused of having a sexual relationship with a freshman high 47 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: school and I immediately knew it to be true. I 48 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: could feel it in my body. I would often say this, 49 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: and it was kind of downplayed a lot, that this 50 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: person should not be coaching girls in high school. I 51 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: felt inclined to reach out to this young girl. I 52 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: was not at this time trained as a survivor advocate, 53 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: being a woman in sport with a degree in sports psychology, 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: really wanting to empower female athletes. I was just attempting 55 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: to be, in my mind, a good human to tell 56 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: this young girl who was coached by my farmwer coach 57 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: that I deeply believed her within a community, that this 58 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: was a very contentious thing that was happening. Yeah, that, um, 59 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: I know for you, this is an extremely personal subject. Yeah. 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: So she was telling her stories and I started to 61 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: recognize everything that she was sharing. I learned from a 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: sixteen year old girl when I was thirty that gently 63 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: rubbing someone's wrist means I want to have sex with you, 64 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, I knew in my body that 65 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: that had happened to me. I did not know at 66 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: the time that I had been groomed. It wasn't conscious 67 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: in my mind. And all of a sudden, after the conversation, 68 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: it was this realization that like this had been going 69 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: on for twenty some years, and so all of a sudden, 70 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: all of these memories and thoughts became very real for me, 71 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: and I knew then as adult that these behaviors and 72 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: things that had happened were not appropriate. I started recalling 73 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: him coming to my home. He came to the front 74 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: door and had a Lakers jacket, and he said, don't 75 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: tell anyone that I got it for you. You're gonna 76 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: be the best point guard from this town. All of 77 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: these memories, taking me raspberry picking alone, he regularly said 78 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: I love you, you know, and then started having conversations 79 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: with my parents, and my parents saying, you know, we 80 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: thought it was just a really special thing. You thought 81 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: you were such a special kid. And so he had 82 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: also groomed my parents can groom the community. So that's 83 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: really where my journey began. Shortly there. Later that summer, 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: I went through the survivor advocacy training with what is 85 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: now Resilience here in Chicago, and I've never looked back. 86 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: You know, those patterns when we talk about grooming or 87 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: coercion or some of these practices that coaches exhibit where 88 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: it really crosses the line. What are some of those 89 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: patterns that we see in behavior? Typically there's these three 90 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: areas generally that grooming occurs under the psychological, the physical, 91 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: and then the grooming of a community. So the psychological 92 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: will be things like finding out what the person likes, 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: starting to make you feel as though you're special, as 94 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: though you're unique, that they're spending one on one time 95 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: with you to make you better in your game. The 96 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: perpetrator is also starting to see how far they can go. 97 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, is there going to be a parent, a guardian, 98 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: a friend, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, a partner that's going 99 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: to intervene from there. The physical could be things of 100 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: a hug, you know, the themes that you kind of 101 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: talk about their right I know in your book as well. 102 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: You know, trust seem to be this really key factor 103 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: of the coach athlete relationship if you want to perform 104 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: at your highest level. Right. So, and we normalize it 105 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: in sport. Think about when we're training in sport. A 106 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: lot of times it can be really ambiguous, like, oh, well, 107 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: I have to touch the athlete's body to help them 108 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: with their form, to teach somehow to box out, how 109 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: to swing a back correctly, a reposition and adjust in gymnastics, 110 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: it could be any sport. And so that becomes normalized 111 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: because is everyone a perpetrator who has to touch an 112 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: athlete's body or wants to hug an athlete after a 113 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: loss or a successful game. And no, but these are 114 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: part of like normalizing this physical touch that and transcends 115 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: to a hand on the knee, you know, arm over 116 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: the shoulder for a long time, holding hands on a 117 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: bus ride, you know, privately, those types of things, and 118 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: the athlete has been psychologically groomed to possibly normalize this, 119 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: to think this is what happens for when you have 120 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: a really great coach that cares for you. And then 121 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: also within the community, it's not uncommon a lot of 122 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: times for these perpetrators to be perceived as the nicest person. 123 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Pitting the athlete against other people within their community. The 124 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: isolation is really key in the grooming process, So pitting 125 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: the athlete against their other teammates, pitting the athlete against 126 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: their partner or their parents, their fellow coaches as well. 127 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: You know, things like oh, yeah, that coaches really mean, 128 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: and I'm the nice coach, I'm the one who cares 129 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: about you. And so these are some of the things 130 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: that become normalized over time. And then it's a lot 131 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: of times too late when people are like, oh, this 132 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: is what happened. I mean, I wonder how what the 133 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: damage can be when that trust has then broken, and 134 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: you know, you start to have this realization of that 135 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: was actually totally inappropriate. What's the effect I guess on 136 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: recipients of that kind of behavior at the at the 137 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: hands of coaches disorientation. Right, the person who has made 138 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: you believe cared about you the most, right, had normalized 139 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: their behaviors and their abuse of power to you. As 140 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: a victim, or survivor, and then a lot of survivors 141 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: there's this disorientation of does the next coach really care 142 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: for me? Does my next intimate partner? What are their intentions? 143 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: And so with these violations of boundaries, it can be 144 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: confusing in terms of well, was I really agree to athlete? 145 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: You know, was I really going to be a champion? 146 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: Or was all of that just to create this intimate relationship? 147 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: And so there can be for for athletes, for survivors 148 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: and victims, this moment of what is truth and what 149 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: was the facade? And that's part of the work that 150 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: I do is our bodies know, our bodies keep the score, 151 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: and so right when a lot of times I'll say 152 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: if if it doesn't feel right in your body, trusted. 153 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: But we are so socialized, even in sport, we think 154 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: about like athletes, right, some of the things that we value, 155 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: play through pain, champions never quit, all these things. So 156 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: we teach people to disorient themselves, separate themselves from their 157 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: physical body, and that's part of the healing process for 158 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: for many survivors is beginning to trust themselves again and 159 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: that they are more also than what they endured or 160 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: what they experienced you're very focused on this type of work. Obviously, 161 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: by as you were kind of coming into the space 162 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: in this world in your research, did you feel like, Wow, 163 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: there's a lot more people than I thought that have 164 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: experienced something similar. Do you have any sense of how 165 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: prevalent some of these issues are full disclosure. The first 166 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: year that I began holding space for athletes, I was 167 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: blown away. I would do anonymous surveys after a session 168 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: and ask if they felt comfortable, you know, are you 169 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: a survivor yourself? And and it would be within an 170 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: athletic department, and not everyone shared their story in these spaces, 171 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: and not all of their survivorship happened within sport. I 172 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: would sit there after these sessions and I would really 173 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: have to take it in, you know, one out of 174 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: two in in some of these spaces was like, it 175 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: happens everywhere. Sexual misconduct is in every community, it's in 176 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: every organization, and it's in every family, maybe extended family, 177 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: and we are not talking about it collectively. And that 178 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: is part of the education that is necessary. We'll be 179 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: back after this when we talk about some of that 180 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: education of the term by standards I know was mentioned 181 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: a lot in your work too, So I wanna, I 182 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: guess explore that term a little bit more. What is 183 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: by standardism and then how does that play into how 184 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: we typically respond to these instances of sexual misconduct in 185 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: sport versus how we should be responding. Yeah, the nuance 186 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: is so important when we talk about by standardism. By 187 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: standardism is this phenomenon that people are persons feel something's off, 188 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: they recognize their acknowledge that there's harm being done, and 189 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: yet they do not intervene. And so it happens at 190 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: an institutional level, and it happens at an interpersonal level, 191 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: and bystanders do and don't intervene for a variety of reasons. 192 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: And so this is where like we have to hold 193 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: the nuance this person who is perpetrating, who is grooming, 194 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: they're also grooming a community, and there is risk in 195 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: being a bystander. Right. It could be social capital could 196 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: be like you know that you're gonna have to go 197 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: against the rest of your teammates and they may not 198 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: believe you, just as they may not believe the survivor. Right. 199 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: It could also be for an athletic trainer who witnesses something, 200 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: they could lose their job taking on harm yourself. Right, 201 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: these are the real things that are happening. So most 202 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: of the times we think we're gonna applaud you, there's 203 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: gonna be another constituency that is going to demonize you. 204 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: The more that we educate, then we can collectively be 205 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: with one another and normalize being a bystander, normalized not 206 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: doing harm to humans, not only in terms of sexual misconduct, 207 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: but all sorts of harm. Yeah. I think that's a 208 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: great point, and I think it kind of plays into 209 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: this repeated theme of like institutional failure in all these 210 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: instances we've seen lately, because ultimately, like the institutions are 211 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: made up of people that you know, need to take 212 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: action of some sort, either do or don't. So institutional failure, 213 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: I think one of the hardest things, and you you 214 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: named it. People make up organizations and institutions, and so 215 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: as people and people in power, it's first admitting that 216 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,239 Speaker 1: the system, the processes they are serving the most powerful, 217 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: the most wealthy within the system, and so that has 218 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: to be interrupted. And so what is that play here. 219 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: It's money, it's capitalism, it's reputation. We need to have 220 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: more restorative conversations because we hear a lot of lip 221 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: service institutions. Oftentimes, well, all right, we'll bring in a speaker, 222 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: will do a sensitivity training, will will do a sexual 223 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: misconduct prevention you know, online training, and then we'll keep 224 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: things moving. The system wants to keep moving as is 225 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: because it's working for those in power. The accusations of 226 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: abuse were devastating, but not surprising. Was not indicted today 227 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: on several complaints of sexual assault. More than sixty women 228 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: have filed complaints so far. This comes about a year 229 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: after police investigation sparked by lawsuits by twenty two women. 230 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: Olympic gold medalist Alex Morgan noted the league was informed 231 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: of these allegations multiple times and refused multiple times to 232 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: investigate the allegations. We get into this victim blaming at 233 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: some level. Most of us have done it, and what 234 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: we don't really sit and recognize that only one out 235 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: of a thousand, statistically speaking, one out of a thousand 236 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: perpetrators ever go to jail or see prison time or 237 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: have a sentencing. One out of a thousand. So let's 238 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: sit with that reality and so believing survivors. Why would 239 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: a survivor want to come forward if they know that 240 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: the legal system isn't working for them. And so a 241 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: shift that I often will welcome and invite people into 242 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: is that if we know a survivor, we also know 243 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: a perpetrator. Believing survivors to me is believing that yes, 244 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: people experience this, but people are capable of harm. As 245 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: I work with athletic directors and coaches, oh, we just 246 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: have to focus on survivors and what creates a situation, 247 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, and how do we support after the fact. 248 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: And there's not the same level of conversations as I 249 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: perceive them that are happening of like, oh, perpetrators are 250 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: here in this athletic department right now, right in this space, 251 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: and this feels in sound is really really wild for 252 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people. We'll be back after this. In 253 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: your book, it says we should recognize when it comes 254 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: to sexual misconduct, if you have the potential to be 255 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: victims and perpetrators, you must live in this reality, face 256 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: it fullan and act as a community of by standards. 257 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: What does that really mean in action? I mean so 258 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: many things. Not every perpetrator goes into their abuse of 259 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: power with an athlete, or with a child or a 260 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: person with a long standard pattern of behavior, a coach 261 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: could be going in with good intentions and then things 262 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: can snowball, and so it's it's acknowledging that. So if 263 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: we think about situations where we could put ourselves in 264 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: that spot, then we can be like, okay, like I 265 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: need to be recognizing my own boundaries. I need to 266 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: recognize where I have power, where I do not have power, 267 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: and be taught this right. We do not innately think 268 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: about this on a daily basis. So so teaching people 269 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: to like really think about what abuse of power looks like. 270 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: I know that you do a lot of identity work. 271 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: Obviously there's it's a prevalent debate nationally right now about 272 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: books and schools and identity and how all of that 273 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: is acknowledged and can you talk a little bit about 274 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: that as well. Yeah, So I deeply believe our our 275 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: identities are are steeped in our socialization and and not 276 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: all right, and they're fluid, and we are socialized to 277 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: believe that they're fixed, right, And so I oftentimes will 278 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: name I think there's important things to name. I'm a 279 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: white cis gender, overly educated human being married to a 280 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: man raised Christian, right, all of the things provide privilege. 281 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: And so why this is also important, especially as we 282 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: related back to sexual misconduct, is that there is a 283 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: history where people who live in my identities, look like me, 284 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: are protected, are most likely to be believed. And this 285 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: is historical, this was by design, and we need to 286 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: sit with the reality that not all white men are perpetrators, 287 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: but historically, white men with wealth had sexual access to everybody, 288 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: white women, enslaved women, indigenous women, Latina women, Asian women. 289 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: Over history, across the world, white men perpetrate sexual harm 290 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: more than any other right, Like, that's like do we 291 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: just have to sit and breathe that in and who 292 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: is most protected? The white woman is most protected in 293 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: sci idea? And then who was least to be believed 294 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: time and time again, women of color, black women, and girls, 295 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: trans women. So why this matters to sport? Who's in 296 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: power and sport very white cis gender men. If we 297 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: want to talk about sexual less conduct, we also have 298 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: to talk about this. And so when I walk into spaces, 299 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: I have to absolutely share who I am, share my socialization. 300 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: Actually sometimes I need to step out of the way 301 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: because women like me, we've had the mic enough. We 302 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: need to hear what is really happening, and we have 303 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: to ask those who have been most harm how they 304 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: want us to make it right. We can't come and 305 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: say well, we're gonna do this, this, and this, when 306 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: those who have experienced the harm is saying, actually, what 307 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: I need to make things more right or better or 308 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: for my own healing is for this to happen. And 309 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: that's transformational and that takes a lot of courage to 310 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: Rea mad Gin. And until systems people have the fortitude 311 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: to reimagine, harm is going to continue to be done. 312 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: I'm Alexandrea. Payback is a production of The Charlotte Observer, 313 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: Raleigh News and Observer, McClatchy Studios, and I Heart Radio. 314 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: It's produced by Cotta Stevens, Casey Tough, Julia Wall, and 315 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: Davin Cockburn. The executive producer for iHeart Radio is Sean 316 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: ty Tone. For lots more on this story and to 317 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: support journalism like this, visit Charlotte Observer dot com slash 318 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: payback or News Observer dot com slash payback. 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