1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent coverage. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: That is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Very excited to be joined 10 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: by Oliver Stone. He's got a new film, Nuclear Now. 11 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: Let's take a look at the trailer and then I'm 12 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: going to get you an interview with him. 13 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: We may have come to a point in time when 14 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: Earth is asking us, do you know what you're doing? 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: Most of our power still comes from burning gas and coal, and. 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 4: The amount is going up, not down. 17 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 3: If we do not cut carbon emissions by nearly one 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: hundred percent, the world will suffer serious damage. 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 4: This is an even bigger problem than we thought. 20 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 3: The answer to solving climate change is very straightforward. 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: What's the best solution, in your mind? Largely nuclear? 22 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: Nuclear? 23 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 4: Nuclear. We've been trained from the very beginning to fear 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 4: nuclear power. The very thing that we fear is what 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:22,279 Speaker 4: may save us. 26 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 5: What's scary is not the same as what's dangerous. Coal 27 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 5: is dangerous. Now more people die from coal in a 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 5: couple of weeks than I've ever died from nuclear, which 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 5: is all from the one accident in Chernobyl. 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 3: First question is what about the waste. 31 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 4: Nuclear waste is nothing compared to climate change. 32 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: Once you understand it, people have a better sense of 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: not being afraid. 34 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 5: We have to provide clean, affordable energy to the world 35 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 5: in general. 36 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: We need to move faster. We do this for our families, 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 3: We do this for killed this generation. 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 4: We've run out of time to be afraid. 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: Joining us now is the legend Oliver Stone. He is 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 2: the director of the creator of the new film Nuclear Now. 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: It's a very important film which I believe everyone should see. Sarah, 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. 43 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 3: Nice to see you back again. 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 4: Saga. 45 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: Oh of course. So first of all, Oliver, you know 46 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 2: we've heard a little bit from you and the Joe 47 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: Rogan experience and more, but a big proponent of nuclear 48 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: power and we wanted to have a discussion here to 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: focus primarily to the skeptics of which some of you 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 2: engage with in the film, and which you were kind 51 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: enough in order to show me a few months ago. 52 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: So first of all, just why did you decide to 53 00:02:58,120 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: make this film? 54 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: Well, because the future, you know, it's I was concerned 55 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: that we've been hearing so much about climate change and 56 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: the changes in the in the atmosphere, so that you 57 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: know the thing is that we're not dealing with it. 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk and a lot of hyperbole. 59 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: People say we're getting better, but we looked at all 60 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: the facts. I read this book that we bought in 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: I bought in nineteen twenty nineteen. It was called A 62 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: Bright Future by Josh Goldstein and by Stefan Scovist, a 63 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: Swedish nuclear scientist. The book is very simple, lays out 64 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: the facts where we came from in nineteen eighty, two 65 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: thousand and now twenty twenty, period to twenty fifty and 66 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: looking ahead, we just aren't going to make it. The 67 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: atmosphere is going to get warmer, and we're not getting 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: rid of the carbon dioxide pollution that's all over the world. 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: It's in the atmosphere and not year by year. It 70 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: seems to climb a little bit now people talk about 71 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: all these changes like renewables, wind and solar and hydropower changes, 72 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: but you don't see the result in the graphs. 73 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 3: And the IPCC, the. 74 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: International Panel inter Government Panel on Climate Control, it's a 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: un body. Many scientists are in it. It's a very 76 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: solid organization. They've been right. They're nineteen eighty graphs, they're 77 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: two thousand drafts. They were right on the money. From now, 78 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: from two thousand and twenty twenty, things have not gotten better. 79 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: We've spent billions of dollars, in fact, trillions of dollars 80 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: on renewables and it hasn't gotten better. So we're kidding 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: ourselves and we really have to think seriously from two 82 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: thousand and five fifty back to now, kind of be 83 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: analytical about it. And that's what. 84 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 4: This book is. 85 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: And I wanted to put it into film terms because 86 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: it's dry reading. But frankly, it's very difficult to to 87 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: concretize science. 88 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: But that was a challenge for me. I think the 89 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: movie speaks for itself. 90 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: It's very clear that nuclear is not the only answer, 91 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: but certainly it's a backup. It's a backup, very important 92 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: backup to what we're doing now. And this will really 93 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: cut the CO two down because basically it's clean energy. 94 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: It completely clean, it has no side effects. The problem 95 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: with our presence solutions are we keep putting in renewables, 96 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: but renewables don't work all the time because of the 97 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: sun is not always out, it's night, it's winter. Certain 98 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: climates are better than other climates. As a result, we 99 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: back it up with gas. And that's why the oil 100 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: companies love gas because they call themselves the perfect partner 101 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: for renewables. But what it is essentially gas leaks all 102 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: along the line. 103 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: This is methane. 104 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: As we try to show in the film, it's invisible, 105 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: you don't see it, but it's almost twenty five of 106 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: the global warming problem is now methane. That's serious, right, 107 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: So we have to get rid of the coal. We 108 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: have to get rid of the oil, which is hard, 109 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: and we have to get rid of the gas. And 110 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: the only way we can really do anything about this 111 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: is to bring in an alternate energy like nuclear energy, 112 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: which has been proven clean, reliable and scalable, scalable in 113 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: a time frame that makes sense before twenty fifteen. 114 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: We recently had an RFK junior on the show. We 115 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: actually asked him about nuclear power and One of the 116 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: reasons that he gave for why he was opposed is 117 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: that he says an insurance company would not be able 118 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: to deliver them a policy. I'm curious what you make 119 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 2: of that argument and of others who have good faith 120 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: disagreements around nuclear power. 121 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: I admire Robert very much, in fact supporting it. I mean, 122 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,679 Speaker 1: his campaign is a breath of fresh air. He says 123 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: things that don't get said in our culture. But on 124 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: this issue, I think he's unfortunately behind the eight ball. 125 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: We are really in a hole, and I think it's 126 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: much darker than he knows or may know, and he's 127 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: not facing up to the truth of this, which is 128 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: it's bad news for everybody in the world. It's going 129 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: to get much harder, and you have to take some chance. 130 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: You have to take some initiative. Nothing important, airline travel, 131 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: all kinds of breakthroughs in medicine cannot occur without some 132 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: kind of risk. Okay, so the insurance companies won't handle 133 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: it well. So what, there's governments all over the world 134 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: that can back up this issue. You don't need insurance companies, 135 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: you need government cooperation and backup, as they have in 136 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: all these big countries that are doing anything. 137 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: The most advanced people in nuclear energy. 138 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: Or China and Russia by far have Rosea TOM is 139 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: a two hundred and fifty thousand man agency. 140 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: They do a great job not. 141 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: Only developed nuclear energy inside their own countries, but they 142 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: export it to many countries who are willing to make 143 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: arrangements with them. They put in turn key plants in 144 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: places like Bangladesh, Turkey all over the world. China is 145 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: building the most ferociously. Of course they have the most coal, 146 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: but they are building as far as I know, committing 147 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: four hundred and forty billion dollars to their program by nineteen. 148 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: By twenty and thirty eight, they expect to have one 149 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty new nuclear actors online, which means, in 150 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: addition to this fifty sum that they have now, they're 151 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: going to be the world's leader in nuclear reactors in 152 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: terms of volume. That's quite significant. And President she has 153 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: made a commitment to the United Nations that by twenty sixty. 154 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 3: He won't be a net zero in terms of emissions. 155 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: It's a big statement. 156 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: I hope they can live up to it, because that 157 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: would be the key the United States and China would 158 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: be the key in terms of population key the biggest 159 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: players here. 160 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 3: In terms of changing this changing the way we do business. 161 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: Oliver, what went wrong for the climate left in the 162 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies. You talk some about that in the film. 163 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: Where did the missteps happen? And what were some of 164 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: the dangerous myths that kind of became concretized in a 165 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: lot of people's minds who do believe in climate change. 166 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: Whether I believed in it or not, some conservatives don't, 167 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter. The point is we still must 168 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: do the right thing, and nuclear energy is the right 169 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: thing to do. It's cleanest energy of all, doesn't require backup. 170 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 3: That's very important. It's functioned self reliant on its own. 171 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 3: Once you build a nuclear reactory, it last fifty to 172 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: sixty sometimes seventy. 173 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: Years and very little maintenance. It's expensive at first, but 174 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: it pays off in the end compared to what compared 175 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: to what you have to keep asking compared to coal, 176 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: compared to oil. Look at the damage from the all 177 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: the waste it's in the atmosphere. All this is the 178 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: responsibility of coal and oil and gas. We kept talking 179 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: about the waste from nuclear nuclear plants, but that waste 180 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: is nothing compared to the waste that we're facing now. 181 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: The problem we have is waste. It's chemical waste, oil waste, 182 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: gas waste. So it's just it's illogical to the way 183 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: that it's being argued. The point is serious, it's a 184 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: serious issue, and we don't face up to it because 185 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: the numbers don't. The numbers are staring us in the face. 186 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: So you asked, what was the question you asked, M. 187 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: Sorry, just about what went wrong for people, oh, for 188 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: the climate left in the nineteen seventies. 189 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: It's always a problem because you guys constant, a lot 190 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: of people, a lot of news people concentrate on the 191 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: pro nuclear anti nuclear argument, which is frankly senseless at 192 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: this point because we're way beyond that. But in history, 193 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: I think it will be written off as a great tragedy, 194 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: a great tragedy, someone like the Kennedy killing, in the 195 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: sense that we were going in the right direction. President 196 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: Elisenhower is Adams for Peace program started the whole thing. 197 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: The John Kennedy supported it entirely. They were building in 198 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: America that we were on target. Had we built about 199 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: one hundred and some reactors, one hundred and five ten reactors, 200 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: and we were maybe more, a little bit more, but 201 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: we were on this on the road completely nuclearizing our society, 202 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: or a lot of it. Let's say we'd gotten up 203 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: to eighty percent, ninety percent of our society. But that 204 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: was on the way. In the nineteen seventies early seventies. 205 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: We coming off of the Navy's program. The Navy had 206 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: done initial work on nuclear submarines and tremendously successful. Him 207 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: and rickover built submarines, and then he built the first 208 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: civilian reactor for the government in shipping Port, Pennsylvania, had 209 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: opened in nineteen fifty nine. Now that's important because, in 210 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: other words, the Navy had set a pattern. Now, of course, 211 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: with this military usage, they had enriched enriched uranium, which 212 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: is not what we're using for civilian nuclear plants. We're 213 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: not going to enrich the urager and that's a big 214 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: difference between it being a bomb and it the nuclear energy. 215 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: You cannot blow up a nuclear energy plant, a generator, 216 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: so a reactor rather. So we came to this place 217 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: where the United States is really moving along and it's 218 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: a and we showed in the film of the vision 219 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: of his society, and what happens is that essentially the 220 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: Rockefeller foundation starts the war. It's the oil company business. 221 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 4: John D. 222 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: Rockefeller's foundation. His son was running it at that time. 223 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: Not his son, No, at that time they were both dead. 224 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: But the Rockefeller Foundation had tipped the scale with a 225 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: report published in the New York Times in nineteen fifty 226 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: six saying that any amount of radiation, any amount of 227 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: radiation is dangerous to the human body. Is significant because 228 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: it got public republished in the New York Times. The 229 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: published for the New York Times. Needless to say, it 230 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: was on the Rockefeller Foundation that puts the thumb on 231 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: the scale. You don't need to advertise it, you just 232 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: put it on the front page. It gets around radiation 233 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: apparel to man, you know. Period. And that was the 234 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: myth that kept going around and around and around. Even so, 235 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: even the fact, even the fact that DNA had been 236 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: discovered by Krick and Watson in England, and they had 237 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: suggested and it's now been proved that DNA is repairing 238 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: the body. 239 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 4: As we live. 240 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 3: We have a double we have a sense of a 241 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 3: double person, double helix. 242 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: The DNA is a repair mechanism by which we continue 243 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: to survive, and that includes radiation. 244 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 3: It repairs the radiation in your body. What people don't 245 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: know is we walk around in radiation. Radiation is every day. 246 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: It's inside the studio, it's inside your banana when you 247 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: eat it. If you live at a higher altitude, it's 248 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: more radiation, et cetera, et cetera. It's everywhere in the world. 249 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: It's a fact of life. The radiation has kept the 250 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: earth warm since the beginning of time. It's a belt 251 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: of energy. It's a belt of tremendous warfth and energy, 252 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: and it's a wonderful discovery. Riekoi discovered it in the 253 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety five, and she knew that they were on 254 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: to a miracle energy here, that this was something different, 255 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: that matter was energy. Einstein proved it in nineteen oh five. 256 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: But then and Einstein was a big supporter of it. 257 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: And then, of course we learned how to deal with 258 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: nuclear energy. By the time of nineteen thirties, we improved, 259 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty or roughly there, Fermi Enrico Fermi 260 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: on our US program, we've managed to show out of 261 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: control radiation control the uranium and so that we could 262 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: have a limited energy usage for civilian purposes. However, the 263 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: war was on and what is the natural instinct in 264 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: war is to build the biggest bomb you can. So 265 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: the unfortunately if timing was bad because energy, that energy 266 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: was so valuable, but it was used to maximize the 267 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: amount of damage that a bomb could do in the 268 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: Hiroshima Nagasaki attacks, and those two bombs set off the 269 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: fear of uranium and the fear forever of nuclear energy, 270 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: which has really damaged to us because they're so different. 271 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: As I said before, it's not nuclear energy is not 272 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: enriched uranium. 273 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they're completely different. 274 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 4: You do so the job playing out. 275 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: People will ever separate that, and they've confounded it ever 276 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: since because of the word nuclear. We have a bunch 277 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: of as you know, all those I grew up on 278 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: horror movies in the nineteen fifties. Everything, every every mention 279 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: of radiation was negative. Every Hollywood movie monsters, a radioactive 280 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: spider could bite a man and he would be turned 281 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: into Spider Man. There was all kinds of fantasies about it. 282 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: And then the films in the nineteen seventies started to register, 283 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: which was the China syndrome comes along. It's a good film, 284 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: chain fund, Jack Lemon, It's made at the same time 285 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: as it comes out at the same time as the 286 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: three Mile Island breaks in the news, and that was 287 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: a scare. There had been a shutdown, but there was 288 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: no animeltdown, but there was no release of radiation in 289 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: the area. There was a containment structure that was built. 290 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: So it was much hyped and scared to people, but 291 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: there was absolutely no damage to the civilian population a mile. 292 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 3: It was a false accident, so to speak. 293 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: It was an accident, but it didn't get out of hand, 294 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: and they deal with and they keep improving these reactors, obviously, 295 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: but then, of course ten years later we have the 296 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: Turnable or seven years later, nineteen eighty six. Turnable is 297 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: the worst accident in nuclear history, the only accident where 298 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: people died. Really unfortunately, it's that we don't know that. 299 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: We just feel the hysteria because again the film business, 300 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: HBO made that horrible Churnable series of very successful, and 301 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: it scared people. 302 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 4: It works. 303 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: You can scare people, that's the easiest thing to do. 304 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: The hardest thing to do is to make them understand 305 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: and believe yes, And that's always the problem with filmmakers. 306 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: They have they tend to go the easier way out, 307 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: so anyway, Turnable convinced people that this was a disaster, 308 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: and of course many governments started to move in that direction. 309 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: And then the Fukushima in two thousand and sixteen. I'm 310 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: sorry twenty twelve my dates. I think it was twelve. Yeah, 311 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: it was another called a nuclear disaster, when in fact 312 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: no one died the Japanese citizens. It was a there 313 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: was a what they call a hydrogen explosion. It was 314 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: a built the sea wall was too low, the backup 315 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: generators were flooded, but no one died. The reason twenty 316 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: thousand people died was from the tsunami in Japan. Tsunami 317 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: was the worst they ran and the worst earthquake following 318 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: the worst earthquake they ra had. Twenty thousand people perished 319 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: it and it was all called the nuclear disaster, which 320 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: is a misnomer. So here we are reacting to all 321 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: these hypothetical fears again from going back to the fear 322 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: of radiation. Radiation we talk about in the film Radiation 323 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: we live with. It's in our bodies. We go to 324 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: the dentist, we get radiation. Huge amounts of radiation poured 325 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: into us. If you are a cancer patient, you obviously 326 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: know what chemotherapy is in radiation and what it does 327 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: to you, But it has been highly effective in those persons, 328 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: and people don't die unless, say, get massive, massive doses 329 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: of it. So we're running around scared as usual and misinformed. 330 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: Well luckily, though, Oliver, one of the things I thought 331 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 2: was that your film would be a big c change. 332 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: You're obviously, you know, a world famous filmmaker. You we're 333 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 2: talking just now about the HBO series Chernobyl. You it 334 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: took a lot of courage to get this film made, 335 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: as you've said previously about how it was really difficult 336 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: to do it, but ultimately always find a way to 337 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: make the films that you want to make. Could you 338 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: talk about that process, and then about the reception? You know, 339 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: as now that the film is out there, people are 340 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: watching it. It's finally we consumed people like me. We're 341 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: trying to get the word out about it. How have 342 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: you seen thoughts minds began to change as you've got 343 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: it out there? 344 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: Well, not yet, Frankly, and I'm hopeful, but it's a 345 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: hard process to change public Well, Frankly, let me just 346 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: tell you that in America, the polling revealed that sixty 347 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: percent of the population is pro nuclear development. 348 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: So it's happening, but very slowly and. 349 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: Not fast enough in the terms of this deadline we're 350 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: facing twenty fifteen. The film unfortunately was not supported by this, 351 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: udios or this or that. Nothing nuclear has ever been 352 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: positive from the film business, so this was against the 353 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: grain as always, and like with the JFK series, no 354 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: official distribution came our way. 355 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 3: We were turned down. 356 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: And I think this is because the issue is considered 357 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: a controversial one, not that it is because it's factual, 358 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: but it's considered controversial, and then people back away from 359 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: it because they don't want to have all the you know, 360 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: all the pressure that comes on corporations and so forth, 361 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: and so much it's getting out there. I would give 362 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: it away for free if I could, but there are 363 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: some investors in the film and they're good people. But 364 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: you know it's going around. We're on Amazon Prime, we're 365 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: on the Apple Network where number we were number one 366 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: last week in documentaries, so you know it will get around. 367 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: But unfortunately we have to go country by country. But 368 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: we have foreign salesmen will I was in Korea recently, 369 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: because they're in a very critical position. I would there 370 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: are they are reopening. They were the best, one of 371 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: the best countries. Standardized, standardized, they built standardized nuclear actors, 372 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: and they kept going and they were doing good work. 373 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: And then they had a movie too, Pandora, which scared them. 374 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: After the Fukushima thing. They turned it into a major 375 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: catastrophe and people got scared, so they closed down for 376 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: a few years. And as a result, you lose it, 377 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: you lose a trained workforce, which is very important to 378 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: keep going. 379 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 3: However, Korea and. 380 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: Japan are coming back online, and you know, there's other 381 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: countries that are key here. 382 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 3: Indonesia's a key country. 383 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: India's going nuclear and much more so than before, although 384 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: they have a huge coal problem. 385 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: The key countries. We've got to keep working at this. 386 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: I guess I will be devoted to this for. 387 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: Many years in terms of going around and talking about 388 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: it until it happens. 389 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: But it's it's it's it's it's for our children. You know. 390 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: I don't know why people are so waste so much 391 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: time arguing about nuclear because it's a waste of time 392 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: compared to what the oil companies and the coal companies 393 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: and the gas companies are doing to us. 394 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fear, it's predominantly fear so. I final question, Oliver, 395 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: is just if there's one thing that you could get 396 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: people watching this to do, what would it be other 397 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: than watching the film? In terms of spreading the word 398 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: about nuclear. 399 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: That's all you can do, right, I guess you spread 400 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: the word. You talk this word about what's wrong with 401 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: clear nothing's wrong with it. That's the point. It's working. 402 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: And we have to realize that. We talk about all 403 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: these other solutions and we're all for that. I mean, 404 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: it'd be great if we get someone came up with 405 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: a solution that was working ninety percent or one hundred 406 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: percent of the time, but none of them are and 407 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: none of them provide the scale and the volume. We're 408 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: not talking about making you know, a cell phone or 409 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: an electric car. Here, we're talking about a continent size 410 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: need of energy. I mean, you have no idea what's 411 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: coming the Africa, Asia, the South America. They're going to 412 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: want the same things we have. They want electricity first, 413 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: and they're going to get it. In addition to electricity, 414 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: we have to look at the other issues, which are 415 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: not just electricity. 416 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: We have a huge part of our energy. 417 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: Consumption goes into cars, transportation, trains, we have to get 418 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: them off off their energies and into some form of 419 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: liquid liquid energy that would be safe. Nuclear in combination 420 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: with hydrogen and carbon it is a very likely solution. 421 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 4: And I was at the Idaho Lab in. 422 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: America here and they're working very hard to break through 423 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: on the hydrogen front, what they call green hydrogen. But 424 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: that's with nuclear hydrogen, where it's not with gas background. 425 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: So it's important that hydrogen go in this direction. And 426 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: I think that with nuclear these scientists are really and 427 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: there are many young scientists, I have to say, and 428 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: women too, many women's sideus I saw working. This is 429 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: an important new field and hopefully America will develop a 430 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: new generation of young people working trained in this business. 431 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,479 Speaker 1: And I think that's happening, but slowly America is not 432 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: putting enough money into it. The government is bipartisan, there's 433 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: no question that. From Obama, Bush, Trump, Biden, they keep 434 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: supporting nuclear, but they don't give it the lung space, 435 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: the word of mouth that it needs to get going. 436 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: They talk about all these false solutions. 437 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: I think, well, I think you've done such an excellent 438 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: service to the public, and I encourage everybody to go 439 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: watch the film. We're going to have the links into 440 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: our description. It's always just such a pleasure to talk 441 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 2: to you. You're such a visionary, not only on this issue, 442 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: but on many others that are so important JFK, Foreign 443 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: Affairs and so much more so. Thank you, Oliver. We 444 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: always appreciate your time. 445 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 4: Thank you. 446 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: Cigarette absolutely