1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:22,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I may have Higgins and this is solvable interviews 2 00:00:22,116 --> 00:00:25,596 Speaker 1: with the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the 3 00:00:25,636 --> 00:00:30,876 Speaker 1: world's biggest problems. So you know that here unsolvable. We're 4 00:00:31,036 --> 00:00:34,476 Speaker 1: used to having guests who are taking on huge challenges. 5 00:00:34,876 --> 00:00:39,316 Speaker 1: But our guest this episode, Shashy Bulletsoir, is not content 6 00:00:39,516 --> 00:00:43,156 Speaker 1: with just one solvable. He has three. The first is 7 00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:47,436 Speaker 1: electricity access. Today a billion people around the world don't 8 00:00:47,476 --> 00:00:50,396 Speaker 1: have access to electricity, and that number is expected to grow. 9 00:00:51,836 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: My first solvable is coming up with mechanisms to make 10 00:00:55,596 --> 00:01:00,756 Speaker 1: sure those billion people have electricity. The second is it's 11 00:01:00,796 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 1: not electricity that matters, it's what people do with it. 12 00:01:04,676 --> 00:01:06,796 Speaker 1: One of the most important things people can do with 13 00:01:06,876 --> 00:01:12,076 Speaker 1: electricity is refrigeration. Can say perishables, if they're growing fruits 14 00:01:12,076 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 1: and vegetables, they can store them and take them to market. 15 00:01:14,996 --> 00:01:19,196 Speaker 1: They can store sensitive pharmaceuticals. Off the seven points some 16 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:22,996 Speaker 1: billion people in the world, almost a third don't have 17 00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:26,196 Speaker 1: access to refrigeration. I would love to solve that problem. 18 00:01:27,036 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: The third is the dignity of sanitation and tilets. Today, again, 19 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 1: over a billion people in the world do not have 20 00:01:33,916 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 1: access to clean sanitation. Whether it's its home, whether it's 21 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:40,796 Speaker 1: in cities where human waste just gets it dumped into 22 00:01:40,836 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: local waterways. One of my soluables is making sure everybody 23 00:01:45,516 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: in the world has a decent sanitation waste treatment. CHARGI 24 00:01:49,516 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 1: is the CEO of the Institute for a Transformative Technologies 25 00:01:53,036 --> 00:01:57,796 Speaker 1: in California. Its mission is to use technological breakthroughs to 26 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:04,676 Speaker 1: transform global development, improving access from millions of people to sanitation, food, 27 00:02:05,196 --> 00:02:10,556 Speaker 1: primary healthcare, and electricity. Now, the potential to harness technology 28 00:02:10,956 --> 00:02:17,036 Speaker 1: to create solutions to economic, social, and environmental challenges is massive. 29 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 1: Anybody with even a passing interest in tech or artificial 30 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 1: intelligence has probably had that giddy feeling about these huge 31 00:02:26,196 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 1: opportunities for developing countries to skip stages that took other 32 00:02:31,076 --> 00:02:35,116 Speaker 1: nations years to get to. And it's totally true that 33 00:02:35,236 --> 00:02:40,476 Speaker 1: frontier technologies today are better, cheaper, faster, and more scalable. 34 00:02:40,756 --> 00:02:45,436 Speaker 1: They're even easier to use than ever before. But technology 35 00:02:45,476 --> 00:02:49,036 Speaker 1: also presents an array of challenges that need to be 36 00:02:49,076 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 1: handled with care. And Shashi Bullus where it walks that 37 00:02:52,476 --> 00:02:56,356 Speaker 1: balance beam quite beautifully. He grew up in India and 38 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:59,316 Speaker 1: he believes his countrymen there should have the agency to 39 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: solve their own issues, and that's a huge part of 40 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 1: his philosophy today. He passes it on in his work 41 00:03:05,716 --> 00:03:09,476 Speaker 1: in India as well as in Kenya and Nigeria. She's 42 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:14,516 Speaker 1: work at the Institute for Transformative Technologies focuses on solving 43 00:03:14,556 --> 00:03:18,556 Speaker 1: problems for people living in poverty by using technology, and 44 00:03:18,636 --> 00:03:22,196 Speaker 1: he hits on three solvables in this discussion, but the 45 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: one he gets down and dirty with is sanitation. The 46 00:03:25,676 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 1: World Health Organization reports that almost two point three billion 47 00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:36,556 Speaker 1: people worldwide still do not have access to rudimentary sanitation facilities. 48 00:03:37,236 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 1: Almost half of India's people don't have toilets at home. 49 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:45,636 Speaker 1: A good sanitation system can prevent environmental damage caused by 50 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: untreated sewage flowing into rivers, and it can also stamp 51 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:54,156 Speaker 1: out the terrible health risks associated with open defecation, like 52 00:03:54,316 --> 00:04:00,196 Speaker 1: infectious diseases, under nutrition, and even increased vulnerability to verbal, physical, 53 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:04,596 Speaker 1: or sexual violence. So there's loads in this conversation with 54 00:04:04,636 --> 00:04:08,636 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, let's get into it. What's your kind of 55 00:04:08,676 --> 00:04:11,076 Speaker 1: point of entry, the kinds of things you're interested in. 56 00:04:11,436 --> 00:04:15,156 Speaker 1: Growing up in India, one of my most distinct memories 57 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 1: is that we'd have foreign tourists when as foreign typically 58 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: I mean white tourists would come. I live very close 59 00:04:22,116 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 1: to Islam, so they'd come take pictures with the poor kids. 60 00:04:25,676 --> 00:04:30,076 Speaker 1: I wasn't myself particularly poor, but lived around them. Then 61 00:04:30,116 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 1: they'd go off to their ashram, the yoga retreats and 62 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:36,396 Speaker 1: so on, and it's very curious what brought them there. 63 00:04:36,916 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 1: And when I asked them, they said away here to help, 64 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: which as an Indian kid, made me feel like, wow, 65 00:04:46,116 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 1: we must be so incompetent that we can't help ourselves. 66 00:04:50,276 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 1: And you know, as I go back to India, now, 67 00:04:53,116 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: some of the kids just died, right, it's never never 68 00:04:55,476 --> 00:04:58,756 Speaker 1: made it to adulthood. Others did find, but they did 69 00:04:58,796 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 1: find on their own. And so this idea of as 70 00:05:04,636 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 1: an Indian, I have to do what I can to 71 00:05:07,756 --> 00:05:11,956 Speaker 1: help India became very important to me. At the same time, 72 00:05:12,236 --> 00:05:16,276 Speaker 1: I realized that only Pakistanis can help Pakistan, only Kenya 73 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: can help Kenya, and so it became very important for 74 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: me to have the sense of local empowerment, that we're 75 00:05:23,476 --> 00:05:26,996 Speaker 1: all global citizens and global poverty is a global problem. 76 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:30,516 Speaker 1: But it became extraordinarly important for me to work in 77 00:05:30,516 --> 00:05:34,116 Speaker 1: the context in which you're finding really good people in 78 00:05:34,196 --> 00:05:38,556 Speaker 1: country and working with them to solve local problems. Describe 79 00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:41,116 Speaker 1: how you got drawn into the kinds of problems you're 80 00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 1: now How did you get interested in those particular issues. 81 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:47,916 Speaker 1: A few years back I was invited to start and 82 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:51,316 Speaker 1: institute at the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab in Berkeley to 83 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 1: use the R and D might of the National Lab 84 00:05:54,756 --> 00:05:59,636 Speaker 1: system to address problems related to poverty. And what I 85 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 1: immediately realized was that this whole technology for good space 86 00:06:04,396 --> 00:06:06,636 Speaker 1: is full of hammers looking for nails. Hey, I've got 87 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 1: the stabulist technology. Let me go solve problems with them. 88 00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:15,476 Speaker 1: And typically these result in technologies sitting on jobs. They 89 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:18,916 Speaker 1: make for great media splashes, but otherwise don't really go anywhere. 90 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:23,036 Speaker 1: So we launched a very ambitious study we call the 91 00:06:23,076 --> 00:06:26,476 Speaker 1: fifty Breakthroughs. Essentially, what are the fifty most important technologies 92 00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 1: required to solve poverty over the next twenty years, and 93 00:06:30,716 --> 00:06:34,116 Speaker 1: our job is to get them to life that fifty 94 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:37,836 Speaker 1: or some significant subsetup. Yeah you have this list of fifty, Yeah, 95 00:06:38,356 --> 00:06:40,516 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit more so criteria about what 96 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 1: it takes to be on the list. What we did 97 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:47,116 Speaker 1: was methodically went through every major problem that effect poor 98 00:06:47,756 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: food security, health, education, human rights, gender inequity, digital access, electrification, water, 99 00:06:54,316 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 1: and so on, and essentially said, many of these problems 100 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:01,276 Speaker 1: actually will go away with good policy and good infrastructure. 101 00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: But there is a sub class of these problems, so 102 00:07:06,156 --> 00:07:09,476 Speaker 1: which a new generation of technologies is required. Those elogies 103 00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:14,716 Speaker 1: currently don't exist. What are dose Yeah, And then, as 104 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 1: we did in mapping, we said, well, some of these 105 00:07:16,556 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 1: technologies may come to life on their own simply because 106 00:07:19,036 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 1: of market forces. So a low cost smartphone, for instance, 107 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 1: today you can get a fifty dollars smartphone, and I'm 108 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:27,836 Speaker 1: sure pretty soon you can get a twenty five dollars smartphone. 109 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:31,876 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you have problems that are so complex, 110 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 1: problems that don't have strong enough market forces, like a 111 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: milliaria of vaccine. So what we do is we've taken 112 00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: a class of problems in the middle where you don't 113 00:07:42,316 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: have to spend fifty million dollars to solve it. You 114 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 1: can solve each one with two to five million dollars. 115 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 1: We also categorize these problems on the basis of commercial interest. 116 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:53,156 Speaker 1: If this is a problem in which a global company 117 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:56,476 Speaker 1: can make money solving, chances are it's going to fix itself. 118 00:07:56,516 --> 00:08:00,036 Speaker 1: Again like the smartphone. So that's further that's exactly, so 119 00:08:00,116 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 1: two dimensions. Really, one dimension is how complex is it? 120 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:06,116 Speaker 1: The other dimension is what's the commercial attractiveness. Yeah, if 121 00:08:06,156 --> 00:08:09,276 Speaker 1: it's if it's commercially attractive to global companies like like 122 00:08:09,396 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 1: g or Apple, problem is going to be solved. On 123 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 1: At the other end of the spectrum, there are problems 124 00:08:15,956 --> 00:08:19,236 Speaker 1: it's simply are not financially viable. So a lot of 125 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:22,436 Speaker 1: things related to human rights, for instance. So we again 126 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 1: focused in the middle where we said, look, there are 127 00:08:24,996 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 1: companies based in Kenya, based in Pakistan, based in India. 128 00:08:29,236 --> 00:08:33,836 Speaker 1: They actually would love to build financially sustainable businesses with 129 00:08:33,876 --> 00:08:37,236 Speaker 1: these technologies, but they don't currently invest the R and 130 00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:39,756 Speaker 1: D to bring those technologies to life. So what we 131 00:08:39,796 --> 00:08:42,836 Speaker 1: do is we take philanthropic money, figure out a way 132 00:08:42,876 --> 00:08:46,076 Speaker 1: to make those technologies to life, demonstrate the financial and 133 00:08:46,156 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 1: business viability of these technologies, and then work with those 134 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:55,676 Speaker 1: companies to launch businesses. So let's start with refrigeration. Walk 135 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 1: me through. I know nothing about it. My notion about 136 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: refrigeration is a five hundred dollars plug in refrigerator. It 137 00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 1: seems to me at first plush, how on Earth. Would 138 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 1: you make such a thing practical for a very, very 139 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 1: poor community. So let's talk about refrigeration in two stages, 140 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:18,116 Speaker 1: first the electrification, then refrigeration for electricity. The current paradigm, 141 00:09:18,236 --> 00:09:21,876 Speaker 1: at the historic paradigm has been let's build these large 142 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: electric infrastructures, let's have fossil fuel based generation and turn 143 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 1: the switch on. When we started looking at the electrification problem, 144 00:09:31,236 --> 00:09:34,916 Speaker 1: we realize that if you're a far flung village, it's 145 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:36,836 Speaker 1: very hard to extend the grid to where you are. 146 00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: You have to build what's called a solar minigrid. And 147 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:43,996 Speaker 1: in India we did some math in terms of the 148 00:09:45,316 --> 00:09:48,516 Speaker 1: three years back, what is the cost of a solar minigrid, 149 00:09:49,036 --> 00:09:51,516 Speaker 1: what is the translate into in terms of per month 150 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 1: utility bills, and what can people pay If a family 151 00:09:56,476 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 1: is earning three to five dollars a day, which is 152 00:10:00,156 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 1: not a typical for the average Indian household, the cost 153 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 1: of electricity with a solo minigrid was twice what people 154 00:10:07,876 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 1: can afford to pay. In addition to that, if you 155 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:13,436 Speaker 1: want to build a solar mitigrate in a village of 156 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 1: a thousand people, you'll take you two or three months. 157 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:20,396 Speaker 1: So our mission became can we reduce the cost by 158 00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:24,356 Speaker 1: fifty percent and can we dramatically reduce the installation time. 159 00:10:25,356 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 1: So we sought out the three or four people who 160 00:10:30,636 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 1: consider it to be the leading experts in the world 161 00:10:32,836 --> 00:10:36,996 Speaker 1: from the developing world, and over the course of two 162 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 1: and a half years, we built such a system and 163 00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 1: almost on the one one of the questions we asked 164 00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:46,516 Speaker 1: ourselves as great, if you build this technology, who will 165 00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:50,076 Speaker 1: take it to market? And there was one company that 166 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:54,596 Speaker 1: jumped out Data Power. As you know Data as a 167 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:58,796 Speaker 1: huge conglomerate in India. They have presence in multiple sectors. 168 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 1: They are also a company that is a long history 169 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: of doing the right thing, investing in social businesses, thinking 170 00:11:05,996 --> 00:11:09,596 Speaker 1: about profit only as an afterthought, and electrically ality is 171 00:11:09,636 --> 00:11:12,236 Speaker 1: not going to be widely profitable, even if you go 172 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 1: to Switzerland or Lichtenstein. So they're thinking was can we 173 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 1: get a company that has staying power that can whatever 174 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:23,556 Speaker 1: we design procure the stuff using massive economy. The scale 175 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:27,236 Speaker 1: has the respect of the government and communities around the 176 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 1: country so that they'll trust them to do the right 177 00:11:29,636 --> 00:11:33,636 Speaker 1: thing and can really move the economic muscle. Put in 178 00:11:33,756 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: hundreds of million dollars to do this at a massive scale. 179 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:39,876 Speaker 1: So we brought them to the table in twenty sixteen 180 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 1: and as of late eighteen, we had built the system 181 00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:48,996 Speaker 1: to their satisfaction. So as we speak, we are in 182 00:11:49,036 --> 00:11:51,756 Speaker 1: the process of launching what would be the largest electrification 183 00:11:52,236 --> 00:11:56,516 Speaker 1: event in history. So they've agreed to do ten thousand villages, 184 00:11:56,596 --> 00:11:59,796 Speaker 1: twenty five million people. We're actually talking about this same 185 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:02,956 Speaker 1: project in another episode of Solving. So it's lovely how 186 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:06,156 Speaker 1: these two things dovetail. I'm cused the scale of this. 187 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:10,276 Speaker 1: So you're talking about one of these solo It's costs 188 00:12:10,356 --> 00:12:13,596 Speaker 1: how much I'll give you a cost in terms of 189 00:12:13,716 --> 00:12:16,956 Speaker 1: per what for a full system which includes the panels, 190 00:12:16,996 --> 00:12:20,476 Speaker 1: the batteries, electronics, and the one to two kilometer grid 191 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:24,036 Speaker 1: plus smart meters. It costs a dollar fifty per what. 192 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:28,156 Speaker 1: So for a village of thousand people, it's about forty 193 00:12:28,156 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars. Oh wow, that takes me as an 194 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: incredibly low number. It is. It is affordable, but still, 195 00:12:34,116 --> 00:12:36,076 Speaker 1: you know these are very poor people, right, we still 196 00:12:36,116 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 1: have to make the math work. So the flip side 197 00:12:39,116 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 1: of this is energy efficient appliances, right, because you could 198 00:12:42,516 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 1: have electricity at whatever costs you have them at, but 199 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:48,796 Speaker 1: if you if your appliances are consuming much more than 200 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:51,836 Speaker 1: they should, your monthly bills go up. Right, So that's 201 00:12:51,876 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 1: where energy efficient and affordable refrigation comes in. If people 202 00:12:55,876 --> 00:12:59,956 Speaker 1: were to use an existing fan, in existing run of 203 00:12:59,956 --> 00:13:02,996 Speaker 1: the mill fan, they'd pay much much more than they 204 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: can afford. Certainly, if they would use an existing fridge, 205 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 1: let's say, let's see got used fridges for one hundred bucks, right, 206 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: there's no way they'd be able to afford electricity. Therefore, 207 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 1: there's no way they'd be able to afford refrigeration. Do 208 00:13:15,076 --> 00:13:17,956 Speaker 1: these ideas, what are the chances they all trickle back 209 00:13:18,436 --> 00:13:21,596 Speaker 1: to the developed world? For example, you have this modular 210 00:13:22,116 --> 00:13:28,276 Speaker 1: mini solar grid. Why if I'm a rural community in 211 00:13:28,276 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 1: North America somewhere, is there a point at which we say, 212 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 1: can I have that thing that you've already installed in India? 213 00:13:34,476 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 1: Does it move the other direction? It can? I don't 214 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:41,796 Speaker 1: believe the minigrids themselves will, because we're optimizing them for 215 00:13:41,836 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 1: people who went three to five dollars a day. Yeah, 216 00:13:44,676 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 1: and so that comes with certain limitations. In the US, 217 00:13:50,196 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: for instance, people are willing to pay a lot more 218 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 1: than that. And so I'm sure some version of these 219 00:13:56,236 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 1: technologies will come back. There's one that I'm particularly excited 220 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 1: about that that I'm quite certain will come back. Remember 221 00:14:02,316 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 1: we talked about waste treatment. Do you know that earthworms 222 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:10,156 Speaker 1: love eating human poop? Terms out that one of the 223 00:14:10,196 --> 00:14:13,356 Speaker 1: problems we work on a scanentation and waste treatment, sewage treatment, 224 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:18,556 Speaker 1: and we had concluded that it's going to be impossible 225 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:22,756 Speaker 1: going forward to build out that kind of sewage treatment 226 00:14:22,836 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 1: for a billion plus people to billion plus people around 227 00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:30,476 Speaker 1: the world, and composting toilets currently in the West are 228 00:14:30,716 --> 00:14:37,116 Speaker 1: ridiculous expensive, ridiculously complicated. Turns out that earthworms actually like 229 00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 1: human waste. But if you simply take a drum of 230 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:44,516 Speaker 1: earthworms and put human waste in it, built around because 231 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:49,676 Speaker 1: the matter is so dense, a few British scientists you 232 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:52,316 Speaker 1: put if I had a I'm not sure I understand this. 233 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 1: So let's take two tanks. One tank has cowdang. Yeah, 234 00:14:56,276 --> 00:15:00,076 Speaker 1: the other tank has human waste. Cowdang is a lot 235 00:15:00,156 --> 00:15:03,196 Speaker 1: less dense. This is a lot more fibrous material, so 236 00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:06,716 Speaker 1: the earthworms will define in that tank. In the other tank, 237 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: human waste is significantly more dense, right, so they just 238 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:15,996 Speaker 1: cannot breathe it's not an aerobic process. So some scientists 239 00:15:15,996 --> 00:15:18,316 Speaker 1: in a couple of British universities, I think well Ower 240 00:15:18,356 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 1: a decade back, had figured out that if you create 241 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:25,116 Speaker 1: a layered system, and the way this layered system manifests 242 00:15:25,116 --> 00:15:29,556 Speaker 1: itself in the toilets rebuilding is imagine. Imagine you have 243 00:15:29,596 --> 00:15:32,596 Speaker 1: a tiny outhouse. You're in a village. You have a hut, 244 00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 1: and outside that hut is an outhouse that's let's say 245 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 1: four feet by four feet and you know, seven feet tall. 246 00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:43,076 Speaker 1: Right behind it is a drum that's three feet in diameter, 247 00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 1: three feet in depth. The bottommost layer is just rocks 248 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 1: that you'd find locally. Then you've got gravel, which you 249 00:15:51,356 --> 00:15:55,476 Speaker 1: can also find locally, and then sand, which some variation 250 00:15:55,516 --> 00:15:59,276 Speaker 1: of it you can find locally. So that takes up 251 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:02,356 Speaker 1: about twelve to eighteen inches. Right, then you've got a 252 00:16:02,436 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 1: three or four inch layer of the earth rooms and 253 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:09,796 Speaker 1: some sort of organic matter. Right, So that is the 254 00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 1: digestion mechanism for the toilet. How much do you think 255 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 1: something that that would cost. It's one kilogram of earthworms 256 00:16:16,396 --> 00:16:19,556 Speaker 1: twenty five bucks. In my drama, I have how many worms? 257 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:22,316 Speaker 1: One kilogram of worms? Let's say it's a thousand words, 258 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 1: thousand rights. And I would ask a totally naive question. 259 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 1: If you start with a thousand worms, how quickly do 260 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:30,716 Speaker 1: you have more than a thousand worms? Does the population 261 00:16:30,836 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 1: sort of multiply? Do they self generate more and more worms? Well, 262 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:37,156 Speaker 1: the thing about pretty much every species except humans is 263 00:16:37,156 --> 00:16:40,116 Speaker 1: the optimis the population based on the resources I see. Okay, 264 00:16:40,276 --> 00:16:42,716 Speaker 1: so what happens is if you don't use the toilet, 265 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:46,756 Speaker 1: the population goes down. You can go almost six weeks, 266 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:49,876 Speaker 1: two months without using the toilet at all, right, and 267 00:16:49,996 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 1: even after that the eggs state doornament. So once you 268 00:16:53,036 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 1: start using it again, the population grows. So, yes, you've 269 00:16:56,156 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 1: got about a foot and a half of available space. Right. 270 00:16:59,036 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 1: So let's say a family of four is using this 271 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:03,476 Speaker 1: toilet with the tiny dram. How long do you think 272 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:05,796 Speaker 1: it takes to fill up? Longer than one would think? 273 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:09,836 Speaker 1: Is my answer? Very astute. Yeah, it takes eight years 274 00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:11,876 Speaker 1: to fill up. Because what the worms do is they 275 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:15,196 Speaker 1: there's obviously law of conservation of masks. They convert a 276 00:17:15,196 --> 00:17:17,316 Speaker 1: lot of it into into C or two, which is 277 00:17:17,396 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 1: much better than methane, which is what would happen ordinarily, 278 00:17:20,916 --> 00:17:23,396 Speaker 1: and then they chew up the stuff into tiny, tiny 279 00:17:23,516 --> 00:17:27,196 Speaker 1: little particles, and in the process they destroy ninety nine 280 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:30,116 Speaker 1: plus press into the pathosions. So essentially it gets washed 281 00:17:30,116 --> 00:17:32,916 Speaker 1: away into the soil. But you wouldn't drink it. But 282 00:17:32,996 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: if you drank it, drank the affluent, nothing would happen 283 00:17:35,476 --> 00:17:38,556 Speaker 1: to you. Wow. Wait, So what happens is the waist 284 00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 1: goes in the top is it and it filters down? Correct? 285 00:17:42,556 --> 00:17:45,596 Speaker 1: And where are the worms? Are they throughout the base 286 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:47,756 Speaker 1: or are they? Why is it that the presence of 287 00:17:47,796 --> 00:17:51,316 Speaker 1: this base diminishes the density of the waist. One thing 288 00:17:51,356 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 1: it allows the worms to do is they can they 289 00:17:54,076 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: can spend time wherever they want. If it gets too 290 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 1: dense above, they can go below. The second thing is 291 00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 1: that by adding these layers you're dramatically increasing the surface area. 292 00:18:04,076 --> 00:18:09,076 Speaker 1: So as the waist filters down, the biofilm gets depot 293 00:18:09,316 --> 00:18:12,996 Speaker 1: a very very large surface area. So whatever pathogens the 294 00:18:13,036 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 1: worms don't kill off die off in that process? Is 295 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:18,676 Speaker 1: the drum in the ground and the and the waste 296 00:18:18,716 --> 00:18:21,796 Speaker 1: is going directly into it? How is this configured? Imagine 297 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:25,236 Speaker 1: the typical commode and usually in the context you work 298 00:18:25,276 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: and it's it's a squatting toilet. Right, you have the 299 00:18:28,276 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 1: little u pipe that goes from the commode and then 300 00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 1: it dumps under the ground into this drum. Oh see 301 00:18:35,756 --> 00:18:38,276 Speaker 1: the drum is buried. Yeah. Yeah. The point is after 302 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: eight years you might have to revisit this, but in 303 00:18:40,556 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 1: the medium to long term you install this and it's 304 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:46,076 Speaker 1: no must not us. You're not digging up the drum 305 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:48,996 Speaker 1: at any point. Or that's correct. Yeah, we have run 306 00:18:49,076 --> 00:18:52,876 Speaker 1: into some problems. So two years back, India had horrible 307 00:18:52,916 --> 00:18:56,836 Speaker 1: monsoon range and in one of the villages the worms 308 00:18:56,876 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 1: drowned simply because there was two feet of standing water 309 00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks. So things like that can happen. 310 00:19:02,316 --> 00:19:04,316 Speaker 1: How do you know when all your worms are drowned? 311 00:19:04,636 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 1: Does it start to back up? It starts to smell. 312 00:19:09,316 --> 00:19:11,876 Speaker 1: One of the really good things about these toilets is 313 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 1: that there's no smell. They're't of lives. In fact, most 314 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:19,516 Speaker 1: of the users they don't care about the pathrision destruction value. 315 00:19:19,636 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: What they care about is, hey, wow, I can have 316 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:24,716 Speaker 1: a toilet that doesn't smell. How can it not smell 317 00:19:25,516 --> 00:19:28,996 Speaker 1: simply because of the biological process here right, So I 318 00:19:29,076 --> 00:19:32,636 Speaker 1: have this video that I love showing essentially it's a 319 00:19:32,756 --> 00:19:36,996 Speaker 1: camera in one of these drums, and it's over the 320 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:39,796 Speaker 1: course of twenty hours, and if you just look at 321 00:19:39,796 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: the footage at normal speed, you don't see anything. What 322 00:19:42,356 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 1: you do notice is that a couple of hours after 323 00:19:44,436 --> 00:19:50,516 Speaker 1: somebody defecates, the stuff disappears. If you significantly increase a speed, 324 00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:52,636 Speaker 1: what you see is that the earthworms are doing what 325 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:55,196 Speaker 1: earthworms do, which is they're rolling the soil over right. 326 00:19:55,556 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 1: And so as a result of that, within two hours 327 00:19:58,036 --> 00:20:02,076 Speaker 1: after somebody defecates, the stuff is actually already better than soil. 328 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,996 Speaker 1: How widely has this system been deployed in India? On 329 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:09,396 Speaker 1: one hand, it is the most widely said linked to 330 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 1: alet technology for the four On the other hand, it's 331 00:20:11,996 --> 00:20:14,796 Speaker 1: a tiny number. It's like seven thousand or so, and 332 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:18,236 Speaker 1: we've been figuring out one of two directions to going. 333 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:21,796 Speaker 1: Turns out that there's a much larger scale version of 334 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 1: this that we've used for treating raw sewage so as 335 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:27,356 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, and a lot of cities in the 336 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:30,876 Speaker 1: developing world, which is just dumps into local water wagement 337 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,876 Speaker 1: and that causes all sorts of problems from esthetics to 338 00:20:35,516 --> 00:20:38,596 Speaker 1: health and so on, and so in the city of Pune, 339 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: which has a bunch of such sewage pipes. We've tapped 340 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:47,476 Speaker 1: into one of them and have a larger scale version 341 00:20:47,516 --> 00:20:50,236 Speaker 1: of this earthworm. Larger scale, how big is it? You know, 342 00:20:50,316 --> 00:20:53,236 Speaker 1: it's the size of half football. Can you do this 343 00:20:53,316 --> 00:20:56,876 Speaker 1: at any scale in principle yes, My sense is that 344 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,516 Speaker 1: as it gets larger, rather than simply growing it, we 345 00:21:00,556 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 1: may just have to go through your So what's happened 346 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:05,316 Speaker 1: to the word? It's doing very well. So that is 347 00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:07,996 Speaker 1: actually the thing we're most excited about right now, simply 348 00:21:08,036 --> 00:21:11,676 Speaker 1: because now you can go into a city and over 349 00:21:11,716 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: the course of a year build out the sewage treatment 350 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:19,396 Speaker 1: infracturate a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the cost probably 351 00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 1: one temper the cost of what cost you if you 352 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 1: if you built a conventional system. If you compare this 353 00:21:25,436 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 1: in the West, suppose you were going to build out 354 00:21:27,596 --> 00:21:30,796 Speaker 1: a sewage treatment down the road from where we are now. 355 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 1: Is the ratio the same one tenth or is it? 356 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm curious about the kind of state of 357 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:39,516 Speaker 1: the art Western style sewage facilities. What is the what 358 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:41,596 Speaker 1: are the costs of those compared to something like this. 359 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: I couldn't give you a dollar number for that, right 360 00:21:43,836 --> 00:21:46,476 Speaker 1: but if you just look at the components of the cost, right, 361 00:21:46,516 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 1: so the earth worms kind of grow themselves, meaning that 362 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 1: you just have a large ditch with sewage and there 363 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:57,076 Speaker 1: are thems that reproduce. The rest of it is almost 364 00:21:57,156 --> 00:22:01,516 Speaker 1: zero infrastructure, So you've got no concrete. You know, if 365 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:04,516 Speaker 1: you go if you walk into a typical sewage treatment plant, 366 00:22:04,516 --> 00:22:07,196 Speaker 1: you've got lots of power. You've got pumps because the 367 00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: way we treat waste right now of the area them 368 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:12,636 Speaker 1: there the ways, right, so none of that is required. 369 00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: It runs on a tiny solar panel just to pump 370 00:22:15,756 --> 00:22:18,036 Speaker 1: the stuff, and the rest of it is just the worms. 371 00:22:18,356 --> 00:22:20,716 Speaker 1: So the amount of land is the same, but you're 372 00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:23,596 Speaker 1: not spending anything on motors and pumps. You're not spending 373 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:26,476 Speaker 1: anything on large concrete structures. So this is one that 374 00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:29,796 Speaker 1: you expect to move from that could well, you think 375 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:33,476 Speaker 1: be popular in more developed countries. It could be. It 376 00:22:33,516 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: could be. So give you an example of something that 377 00:22:35,636 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 1: came up which I would love to explore. I don't 378 00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 1: know if the current regulatory environment allows for that. In 379 00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:45,316 Speaker 1: the state of Alabama, Lounges County, it's a largely African 380 00:22:45,356 --> 00:22:51,116 Speaker 1: American community, the rates of worm and round worm infection. 381 00:22:51,596 --> 00:22:55,276 Speaker 1: They're comparable to the developing world, and the sanitation infrastructure 382 00:22:55,276 --> 00:22:57,956 Speaker 1: there is non existent, and the state of Alabama is 383 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 1: just not bothered to build it out, and so a 384 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:06,476 Speaker 1: lot of the old septic tanks they just dump into 385 00:23:06,516 --> 00:23:09,556 Speaker 1: the soil there. A place like that is perfect for 386 00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:13,476 Speaker 1: this kind of setup. Obviously, given that the US is 387 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:17,636 Speaker 1: much more of a litigious society than India is, we're 388 00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:21,236 Speaker 1: actually much more careful about liability protections and so on 389 00:23:21,236 --> 00:23:25,116 Speaker 1: and so forth, and it's not yet clear what the 390 00:23:25,196 --> 00:23:27,756 Speaker 1: regulatory environment is, so composting toilets and a lot of 391 00:23:27,836 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 1: and turns out in the US, it's a county by 392 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:32,476 Speaker 1: county thing around the country. So some counties are fine 393 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:35,196 Speaker 1: with it because they don't have a large enough population 394 00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 1: and most of them live off grid anyway, and it's 395 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:40,956 Speaker 1: just an alternative to septic tanks. But other counties are 396 00:23:40,996 --> 00:23:46,676 Speaker 1: much more stringent about it. But if that switch flips 397 00:23:47,036 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 1: where counties, particularly rural counties, recognize that this is a 398 00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:55,636 Speaker 1: much more environmentally sound way to do things, with the 399 00:23:55,676 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 1: appropriate checks and balances to make sure we're not polluting 400 00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:01,636 Speaker 1: the ground and polluting the waterway is as suspect something 401 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 1: like this could be very very interesting. In fact, if 402 00:24:05,836 --> 00:24:08,156 Speaker 1: you do an Internet search, you'll find that there are 403 00:24:08,276 --> 00:24:11,596 Speaker 1: some people living who already do something of the starting Yeah. 404 00:24:12,356 --> 00:24:14,956 Speaker 1: One last question that has to do with scale. It 405 00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 1: sounds like you guys have lots and lots of good ideas, 406 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:22,436 Speaker 1: and these ideas have lots and lots of potential, But ultimately, 407 00:24:22,516 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: of course everything is going to depend on your ability 408 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:27,716 Speaker 1: to scale. Is to where they make a meaningful difference. 409 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about how you think about 410 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:32,796 Speaker 1: the scaling problem. If I wanted to put one of 411 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:35,036 Speaker 1: these toilets in every Indian village that needed one, what 412 00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:38,156 Speaker 1: would have to happen. I don't believe startups a set 413 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:41,196 Speaker 1: up a scale. If you go back to the example 414 00:24:41,236 --> 00:24:45,276 Speaker 1: of Data Power, the reason we brought them on board 415 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:49,276 Speaker 1: is that for a startup like ours, a small organization 416 00:24:49,316 --> 00:24:53,356 Speaker 1: like ours, if we were to reach two hundred villages, 417 00:24:53,636 --> 00:24:58,036 Speaker 1: that would be unprecedented scale. Data Power wouldn't think of 418 00:24:58,036 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 1: two hundred is even a starting point for them, ten 419 00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:04,916 Speaker 1: thousand villages as a starting point. So our belief is 420 00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:07,076 Speaker 1: that the best way of scale is to have a 421 00:25:07,116 --> 00:25:10,076 Speaker 1: company like that that's hungry for this for this market, 422 00:25:10,516 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: that is respected by the government, that has a good 423 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 1: track record and has a staying power. As it happens, 424 00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 1: there's another Tata company that we've been working with. It's 425 00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:23,956 Speaker 1: called Tata Projects, which is an infrastructure company. We're talking 426 00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:26,876 Speaker 1: to them about possibly scaling up this toilet and this 427 00:25:27,156 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 1: sewage treatment business. It's not nearly as mature as the 428 00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:34,956 Speaker 1: Tata Power conversation is. But I suspect if you if 429 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:38,756 Speaker 1: you go around the world in a number of emerging 430 00:25:38,796 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 1: economies Kenya and Nigeria, Ethiopia, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh and 431 00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:48,396 Speaker 1: so on, there are companies that are much better position 432 00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:52,236 Speaker 1: than outside entities to scale and our job is to 433 00:25:52,396 --> 00:25:55,636 Speaker 1: find who they are. If they're not interested, that kind 434 00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:58,316 Speaker 1: of that ends the deal right there. But if they are, 435 00:25:58,876 --> 00:26:02,076 Speaker 1: we bring them up. But this is from from the 436 00:26:02,116 --> 00:26:06,036 Speaker 1: perspective of someone I taughta products. Is this actually a business? 437 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 1: I mean there's says is the you can the idea 438 00:26:11,156 --> 00:26:14,036 Speaker 1: of installing these and presumably being paid by the local 439 00:26:14,876 --> 00:26:18,356 Speaker 1: municipality or whoever it is that actually translates into something 440 00:26:18,356 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 1: that could be conceived of as a large scale business. 441 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:23,276 Speaker 1: It would have to be a large scale business in fact, 442 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:26,516 Speaker 1: because it's a low margin business. Yeah, it has to 443 00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:30,476 Speaker 1: be a large scale business. In the toilets context, you 444 00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:34,476 Speaker 1: may recall that the multi government in India launched this 445 00:26:34,636 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 1: sort of universal toilets initiative and that was going to 446 00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:44,236 Speaker 1: be the vehicle for us to do this. Unfortunately, in 447 00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:46,716 Speaker 1: that program it ended up being a numbers game more 448 00:26:46,756 --> 00:26:50,196 Speaker 1: than anything else. So we've decided to pull back from 449 00:26:50,236 --> 00:26:52,396 Speaker 1: that a little bit to wait for that dust to settle, 450 00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:56,636 Speaker 1: meaning that because the government was giving one hundred and 451 00:26:56,676 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: seventy five per household subsidy to build toilets, and so 452 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:03,876 Speaker 1: lots of households took one hundred and seventy five dollars 453 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:07,156 Speaker 1: built something that kind of resembled a toilet, but the 454 00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 1: user rate is not very high. And in an earthworm 455 00:27:10,916 --> 00:27:13,316 Speaker 1: based system, if people build a toilet and don't use it, 456 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:17,676 Speaker 1: the earthworms die. Yeah, So what we're waiting for is 457 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:21,836 Speaker 1: pretty soon we believe that in the country like Indiana, 458 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:26,236 Speaker 1: a bunch of countries around the world, open defecation is 459 00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:28,596 Speaker 1: or will soon be a thing at the past because 460 00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:30,436 Speaker 1: it's if nothing else, it's a matter of dignity and 461 00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:35,076 Speaker 1: it's a matter of security. So people will want Aspirationally, 462 00:27:35,156 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 1: people will want clean toilets, and so this is we 463 00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 1: believe it's perfect a position for that. Yeah. Yeah, this 464 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:45,596 Speaker 1: has been fascinating. Thank you, Thank you so much. Absolutely, 465 00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:50,676 Speaker 1: I never thought i'd learned that a kilogram of earthworms 466 00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:53,996 Speaker 1: cost twenty five dollars, but I will certainly be repeating 467 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 1: that fact. The way Shatterly tackles these huge, almost existential 468 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 1: challenges with such great detail, it's really important. I think 469 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:08,556 Speaker 1: he says himself that technology and artificial intelligence cannot alone 470 00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 1: solve global poverty. It all depends on the context and 471 00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:17,396 Speaker 1: the existing structures. Bringing this holistic viewpoint is something a 472 00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:21,076 Speaker 1: lot more tech people could find helpful. Oh and the 473 00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:25,236 Speaker 1: electrical minigrids Shashi mentioned to Malcolm, they're actually the subject 474 00:28:25,276 --> 00:28:29,116 Speaker 1: of our next episode of Solvable. Ashvindale will tell us 475 00:28:29,156 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 1: more about the incredible ways they can transform lives and communities. 476 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 1: Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and the Rockefella Foundation, 477 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:44,676 Speaker 1: with production by Laura Hyde, Hester Kant, Laura Sheeter, and 478 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 1: Ruth Barnes from Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's executive producer is 479 00:28:48,716 --> 00:28:53,676 Speaker 1: Neia LaBelle. Research by Sheer, Vincent engineering by Jason Gambrel 480 00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: and the great Folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed 481 00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:02,396 Speaker 1: by Pascal Wise and special thanks to Maggie Taylor, Heather Fine, 482 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:07,356 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Carly Mgliori, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. You 483 00:29:07,396 --> 00:29:11,476 Speaker 1: can learn more about solving today's biggest problems at Rockefeller 484 00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:16,276 Speaker 1: Foundation dot org slash solvable. I'm Mave Higgins. Now go 485 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:16,956 Speaker 1: solve it.