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Speaker 1: Ah beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military

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Speaker 1: News and straight talk with the guys and the community

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Speaker 1: soft Rep Radio on time on Target. This is episode

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Speaker 1: four hundred. I am Dennis Jones. His name is Jack

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Speaker 1: Murphy and we're joined by your daughter in studios Are

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Speaker 1: there one as well? So hello all, it's the end

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Speaker 1: of school, that's why Alice is here. So summer is here,

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Speaker 1: which as a parent I'm sure is um exciting because

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Speaker 1: obviously you get to see your daughter more. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, as a parent, how do you like, Well,

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Speaker 1: what's on what's on tap? This summer? We got summer camp? Okay,

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Speaker 1: she's done. She's in like one of these uh summer

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Speaker 1: camps where she's gonna do some coding and stuff. But

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Speaker 1: that's only for like a week, and actually she's going

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Speaker 1: to be in Italy most of the summer. Got it

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Speaker 1: made in the shade. Yeah, I think her mom's taken

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Speaker 1: her somewhere else too, so Mr Mystery Spot Yeah, good

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Speaker 1: for her, um, but obviously always happy to have her

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Speaker 1: in studio. Um, we have Joe Goldberg on today. We

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Speaker 1: didn't that was the first we revealed his name. We

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Speaker 1: didn't do it. We've been doing the long tease, the

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Speaker 1: slow play. Joe Goldberg worked in the CIA for eight years. Um,

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Speaker 1: gonna be all the guests have incredible stories to tell Joe.

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Speaker 1: I was telling you off air. He's through email and

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Speaker 1: I hope it translates via phone, which I think very uh,

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Speaker 1: very comedic. He's got a he's got a witty sense

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Speaker 1: of humor to him. He's I've enjoyed emailing him and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure speaking with him he's going to be a delight.

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Speaker 1: He was recommended to us by a good friend of

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Speaker 1: mine who's also been a guest on this show twice.

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Speaker 1: I think j T. Patton is his pen game. Um,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, he came to me through a good friend.

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Speaker 1: So we're looking forward to having Joe on. You will

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Speaker 1: hear that shortly? Um, we didn't. We usually discussed topics beforehand,

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Speaker 1: if there's anything we want to hit on, and today

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Speaker 1: we didn't really have anything. So I went through the

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Speaker 1: Softwap radio email and I was just clicking around looking

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Speaker 1: for some stuff. Um, if there was any particular emails

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Speaker 1: that jumped out at me, and there was one that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about obviously was directed to

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Speaker 1: you because I know nothing about the military um um.

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Speaker 1: It was from a listener, Scott. I don't do last names.

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Speaker 1: We'll give him, We'll give me past there he said,

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Speaker 1: this he's sent Scott. He sent a lengthy email, so

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Speaker 1: I cut it in half. So I don't think that

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Speaker 1: I ignored it. I just wanted to get the the

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Speaker 1: pertinent stuff out, he said soft rep. I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if Jack ever considered doing a deep dive into why

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Speaker 1: many of the issues in the special Forces community tend

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Speaker 1: to come from two or three specific units and doesn't

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Speaker 1: really reflect across the entire special forces community in general.

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Speaker 1: That's the beginning that keeps going. The units with the

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Speaker 1: majority of the issues are traditionally the Seals, Delta Force

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Speaker 1: and more recently, to some degree, Marsok. We don't see

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Speaker 1: the C G. Ranger Regiment or a stock members committing

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Speaker 1: these alleged less than honorable choices compared to the first three,

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Speaker 1: or at least not on this larger scale. Commonly, I

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Speaker 1: hear that the reason for these poor quote decisions where

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Speaker 1: that we've been at war for eighteen years NonStop. But

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Speaker 1: the latter three units have seen just as much, if

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Speaker 1: not more, combat than the three units who seem to

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Speaker 1: be in hot water. It doesn't really add up to me.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everybody from the latter three units

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Speaker 1: are perfect or angels with no negative conduct, but it's

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Speaker 1: very limited to if any at all. As an army

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Speaker 1: veteran myself who served outside of big Army and who

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Speaker 1: also served as a military contractor, I have a decent

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Speaker 1: amount of experience with guys from many of these units,

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Speaker 1: and in my experience, the behavior and culture of these

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Speaker 1: units overly vary. Why do you think that is so? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure, I think let me just look at it

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Speaker 1: just to see. I just want to see exactly what

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Speaker 1: he was talking about. Uh Okay, the units of the

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Speaker 1: majority of issues being Seals, Special Forces Group and to

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Speaker 1: some degree marsk. So I think that there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of different things happening. Um, there's reality and there's perception,

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Speaker 1: and they feed into one another. Um. The Seals have

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Speaker 1: been like a loud and proud just in like everybody's

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Speaker 1: face for a while now, especially since the ben Laden raid,

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Speaker 1: and part of that is their own fault, and part

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Speaker 1: of it is just the public perception and you see,

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Speaker 1: it feeds into another if they feed into one another.

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Speaker 1: Because the Seals did some things very specifically to try

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Speaker 1: to raise their profile. Um. They did things like that

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Speaker 1: movie Act of Valor. Um. They have really like tried

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Speaker 1: to feed the media machine in a lot of ways, um,

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Speaker 1: to help with recruitment. Um. Those things even end up

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Speaker 1: affecting things like congressional funding and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because if the if the if Congress doesn't know what

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Speaker 1: you do and doesn't support what you do, I mean,

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Speaker 1: eventually they're gonna look at like, wow, this unit is

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Speaker 1: super expensive to maintain. Why do we have it? This

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Speaker 1: is something the Marine Corps has, Like they fought for

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Speaker 1: their existence long and hard, and they have to like

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Speaker 1: basically wine and dine in romance these congressmen. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think things are quite so bad now, but

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Speaker 1: it used to be like that that they would have

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Speaker 1: to really fight for their existence. UM. So they would

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Speaker 1: you know, have to you know, like I said, romance. Um,

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Speaker 1: some of the policymakers and the legislators out there. I

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Speaker 1: think the Seals engaged in some of that also. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then on the other the flip side of it

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Speaker 1: is you have all of these guys who get out

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Speaker 1: of naval special warfare and they are able to cash

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Speaker 1: in on this reputation that has been built. So it

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Speaker 1: kind of snowballs from there. Um, And it starts with

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Speaker 1: um very reasonable in my opinion, kind of like and

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Speaker 1: I say this with my own bias because I wrote

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Speaker 1: a memoir myself, But it starts with like, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: let's let's take like Remy Adele, who we had on

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Speaker 1: the show right a memoir, this is my experience in

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Speaker 1: my life in and out of the Navy. And it

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Speaker 1: starts um in a very tasteful way that there's really

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But then it

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Speaker 1: turns into like a Navy Seals guide to gardening and

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Speaker 1: it's like, wow, this is like gotten kind this has

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Speaker 1: gotten kind of nuts. Um and and it just kind

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Speaker 1: of snowballs from there, and it's like it's just Navy seal,

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Speaker 1: this Navy seal that by the Navy Seal flashlight, get

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Speaker 1: the Navy Seal T shirt. Um. It even became aim

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Speaker 1: like you can look at these other like almost like

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Speaker 1: cultural figures like Kristen Beck, who was a Navy seal

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Speaker 1: who who became I guess she always was, but I'm

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Speaker 1: struggling to use the right terminology. But she's transgender, and

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Speaker 1: she came out as transgender after her military service. So

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Speaker 1: then you have the transgender Navy Seal and there's even

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Speaker 1: a book about her called Warrior Princess. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just like, uh, and I'm not saying she's wrong for

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Speaker 1: being transgender for talking about that, But the Navy Seal

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Speaker 1: um machine, and if you will, media machine just builds

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Speaker 1: and builds and builds, and I think again, it's a cycle,

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Speaker 1: and it feeds back onto itself, and you have people

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Speaker 1: buying into their own legend. Yeah, I could certainly believe that,

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Speaker 1: And so you arrive at the point we're at now

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Speaker 1: and it's just like a perpetual joke where it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: a Navy Seal hair gel and deals, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a it becomes a joke, and I think

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Speaker 1: it ultimately it starts to reflect back on the actual

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Speaker 1: active duty Navy seals. And the sad thing about that

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Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of active duty Navy

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Speaker 1: Seals and I've met them over the years who are

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Speaker 1: totally good guys, like head down doing their job, disciplined individuals.

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Speaker 1: They are not interested in like having Instagram accounts talking

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Speaker 1: about how badass they are. Just good dudes doing their

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Speaker 1: job and serving their country. And I often think about

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Speaker 1: that because for those guys, this has got to be

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Speaker 1: like just such an embarrassment, you know. And when you

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Speaker 1: go and you tell people you're a Navy seal, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if people have a bad impression in there, what's

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Speaker 1: the what's the first reaction to hearing that? And then

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Speaker 1: all this other stuff with the discipline issues. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're murders, war crimes, alleged good cover, drug use, all

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Speaker 1: this other stuff starts again. It's just like snowballs on

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Speaker 1: top of each other. And I feel like it's almost

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Speaker 1: like the Seals are like the new too big to fail,

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Speaker 1: you know, like this thing is just such an institution

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Speaker 1: um that like no manner, any manner of ridiculousness is accepted. Um.

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Speaker 1: But he also mentioned the Special Forces groups and MARSK.

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Speaker 1: We haven't heard a whole lot from MARSK. I mean

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Speaker 1: they've gotten, um the two mar sock Raiders and Molly.

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Speaker 1: Um one of them got or two of them are

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Speaker 1: in trouble. Um. But I don't I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: we've heard a whole lot from marsk Uh Special Forces groups. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: especially for some reason, Seventh Group seems to be getting

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Speaker 1: into trouble a lot um, But mostly it's been on

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Speaker 1: the Seals, And I think a lot of it is

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Speaker 1: just the media fanfare and pubblic city uh, the whole

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Speaker 1: aftermath of the bi Lauden raid. I mean that blew

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Speaker 1: back on them pretty hard, I think. Um. So, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a combination of things, um, And a lot

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Speaker 1: of it has to do with YES seals getting out

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Speaker 1: after service and trying to build careers for themselves as

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Speaker 1: former Navy seals um. And even I feel like a

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Speaker 1: lot of times I'm like, man, can I like turn

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Speaker 1: in my veteran card and just like stop being a

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Speaker 1: veteran because it's like this is like this is kind

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Speaker 1: of ridiculous, you know, between the between the vet bros

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Speaker 1: and the woke vets. It's like, man, this is exhausting.

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Speaker 1: Like I just want to like report news and and

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Speaker 1: write you know, history and interview other guys, Like I

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Speaker 1: don't really care about all this weird stuff that goes on,

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Speaker 1: but I'm also a part of it, right, And I

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Speaker 1: have to I have to acknowledge that that when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the commercialization of special special operations for US

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Speaker 1: is I've kind of been right there at the middle

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Speaker 1: of it. Right there in the middle of it, um,

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Speaker 1: because you know, we founded this way up site in

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. We were really the first on the scene.

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Speaker 1: This was before every former guy had an Instagram account

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Speaker 1: posting their deployment pictures. Right when when we first started,

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Speaker 1: I was one. Uh. I mean when I first first started,

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Speaker 1: I was the only ranger of my generation talking about stuff, um,

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Speaker 1: and one of two or three SF guys. Now everyone's

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Speaker 1: in that, everyone's doing it, so um, so I'm right

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Speaker 1: there at the heart of it. And I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily mean to imply that, like I'm better than

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Speaker 1: the guy who has the Navy Seal pull up bar

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Speaker 1: or something like that. I mean, you know, teach their own,

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Speaker 1: but I think we can all acknowledge that it has

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Speaker 1: also reached a point of ridiculousness. Um. But on the

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Speaker 1: flip side of that, these other units, uh Delta Range

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Speaker 1: of Regiment a sock, I mean, they all have their problems. Um,

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Speaker 1: We've all had problems. None of these units are perfect.

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Speaker 1: I think maybe the difference in the units that I

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Speaker 1: just mentioned is that there's a bit more accountability and

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Speaker 1: that people who step out of line get fired. I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that kind of keeps

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Speaker 1: things from spinning out of control. Um. And again it's

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Speaker 1: also the publicity machine is like Delta Force as a

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Speaker 1: unit has not sought publicity at all, like the Range

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Speaker 1: of Regiment has had something. They do some publicity, some

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Speaker 1: public engagement, which I think I don't think there's anything

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Speaker 1: wrong with that either, um, because again, you want people

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Speaker 1: to know that you exist, and you want to get

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Speaker 1: young people to come and you know, apply. Um. But

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Speaker 1: it just hasn't been to that level. You know, you

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Speaker 1: haven't seen the Rangers Guide to Gardening quite yet. No.

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Speaker 1: And like as I mean obviously um, as a civilian

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Speaker 1: even growing up, like I feel like my friends and

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Speaker 1: like everybody knew it in like Navy Seals and you

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Speaker 1: might not have heard of like mar Sock or or

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Speaker 1: these other units, and you're just they've done a good

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Speaker 1: job of self promoting. The Seals have. And I think

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Speaker 1: I think, as you said, a lot of that buys

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Speaker 1: in where it's like, you know, the seals, the elite

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Speaker 1: of the elite, like being a seal isn't easy obviously,

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Speaker 1: so you get these guys and especially from you know,

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Speaker 1: our generation where you grew up, and you know that

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Speaker 1: Navy seals are like these it's incredibly tough, so that

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Speaker 1: you know we're badasses, and then you're almost buying in beforehand.

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Speaker 1: So maybe, I mean, maybe it's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that too. And then he also mentions that you know,

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Speaker 1: as part of the issue, that poor decisions are being

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Speaker 1: made because you know, we've been at war for eighteen

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Speaker 1: years and these units are kind of fraid the culture

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Speaker 1: is broken down. I think there are cultural issues, and

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Speaker 1: if you're a former seal out there, feel free to

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Speaker 1: write in and weigh in on what I'm about to say. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to give it an observation and other

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Speaker 1: can weigh in on and waite weigh in on it

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Speaker 1: as they like. I think that in the army it

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Speaker 1: comes out of something of an infantry tradition to be

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Speaker 1: a ranger, to be green beret, to be a delta operator, um,

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Speaker 1: and it's much it's all you function within a platoon,

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Speaker 1: within a squad, within a team, and it is seen

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Speaker 1: as a team effort, and no one is really interested in,

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Speaker 1: you know, the individual guy. It's like, okay, you're a

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Speaker 1: good dude, great, but you know, you're one guy on

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Speaker 1: the team. I think with the Seals, it's a much

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Speaker 1: more like individualistic thing and they see themselves more as individuals.

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Speaker 1: Um and it comes. I think part of that culture

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Speaker 1: is driven by the Army being an infantry driven culture.

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Speaker 1: The Seals are coming out of the Navy where they

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Speaker 1: are really the only ground combat element in the entire

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Speaker 1: branch of serve. This so they have a very special

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Speaker 1: status in the Navy. If you're a Ranger, you're airborne infantry. Okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: but we have a whole division, the eighty second Airborne

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Speaker 1: Division also airborne infantry. Like, so it's not quite as

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Speaker 1: seen as like you're not quite as special as maybe

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Speaker 1: you'd like to think you are. UM. So I think yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the Seals, it's a little bit more individualistic, and

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Speaker 1: I think that plays into it. UM. I also think

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Speaker 1: that because of that, in the Seals, it is encouraged

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Speaker 1: that it's encouraged to have more of an entrepreneurial spirit

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Speaker 1: and like, if you go out there and sell the

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Speaker 1: Navy seal, pull up bar. I think those guys like

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Speaker 1: high five each other and like it's it's really cool,

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Speaker 1: and again that's okay, and of itself. I think they're

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Speaker 1: they're much more supportive of that, like, yeah, go crush

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Speaker 1: it in business, Go be an entrepreneur, go do this

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Speaker 1: and that when you're a ranger or you're a Green Ray.

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Speaker 1: And I've talked about this in the past. If you

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Speaker 1: talk about like getting out of the military and going

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Speaker 1: to be a businessman, going to be an entrepreneur, start

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Speaker 1: a company, your own chain of command looks it back

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Speaker 1: at you and says, you're a fucking piece of ship.

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Speaker 1: You will never succeed on the outside. You will never

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Speaker 1: be anything after you leave this unit. So the culture

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Speaker 1: is very different. I know I've said this in the past.

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Speaker 1: When I was in Special Forces and I told the guys,

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, I'm not re enlisting. And one

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Speaker 1: of the dudes told me, he's like, you know what

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Speaker 1: n c O stands for, right, And I was like,

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Speaker 1: what do you? Because n c O is noncommissioned officer,

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Speaker 1: a sergeant like I was, And it's like it stands

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Speaker 1: for no chance on the outside. Thanks for the support buddies.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there are cultural issues um that

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Speaker 1: at play there. And you know, if you're a former seal,

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Speaker 1: I mean, feel free to write in and tell me,

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Speaker 1: tell me if you think I'm wrong, tell me what

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Speaker 1: you think about what I just said. And uh, and

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Speaker 1: you know, please please don't just like I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to read a rant on air, but if say your piece,

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Speaker 1: you know, articulate your points and I'll be happy to

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Speaker 1: read that on air. Um, and we can discuss it.

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Speaker 1: Because maybe I am completely off base there. I was

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Speaker 1: never a Navy seal, so I can't tell you firsthand

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Speaker 1: what their culture is. I can just tell you based

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Speaker 1: on some observations I've made over the years. So I

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Speaker 1: think all those things play into it. And I think

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Speaker 1: the seals, the active duty seal teams, are in the

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Speaker 1: process of trying to clamp down on it and like

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Speaker 1: reverse course because now they kind of I think they

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Speaker 1: kind of realize like we've sort of created a monster here,

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Speaker 1: like like what do we do about it? And I

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Speaker 1: don't think they're happy with seals being the butt of

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Speaker 1: every joke within the military profession. Um, So I think

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Speaker 1: they're trying to turn that around because again, it is

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Speaker 1: unfortunate because there are a lot of active duty seals

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Speaker 1: who are just totally straight up good dudes. And that's

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Speaker 1: that's the thing is, like they're there's however many number

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Speaker 1: seals currently but a few at apples and it's like,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, now, now this is your reputation

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Speaker 1: across the board, and it's like, that's not the case. Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure the majority of the Seals are great guys,

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Speaker 1: And it gets the impression of like, is being a

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Speaker 1: Seal about being a professional and serving your country? You know,

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Speaker 1: you're a frogman, you're a Navy commando, Like that's something

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Speaker 1: to be proud of or is it just um, is

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Speaker 1: it just a brand name that you used to sell

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Speaker 1: protein powder and energy drinks? Right? Well put. But I

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Speaker 1: think the military, I think that the army units are

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Speaker 1: are also susceptible to that. Like, you know, I'm sure

325
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Speaker 1: somewhere out there there's like a range or cross fit gym,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure, Yeah, I'm sure it's all out there.

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Speaker 1: It just is not to the level that it is

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Speaker 1: with the naval special warfare guys, so you don't see

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Speaker 1: it quite as often. But I don't I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to pretend like Special Forces or Rangers or you know,

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Speaker 1: the units I served in, or like above all of

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Speaker 1: this and like like we would never we would never

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Speaker 1: do any of this stuff because we're just we're so professional,

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00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: like come on, no, no, And and who am I

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Speaker 1: to say because I am also that guy who I

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Speaker 1: started a website that is about you know, former Special

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Speaker 1: Operations guys writing about the Special Operations world. So it's

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Speaker 1: not it's if I'm above all that either. So uh great,

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Speaker 1: I mean, first off, thanks for the email, Scott Um. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: great insight. I knew and we've kind of been talking about,

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Speaker 1: I mean obviously with Ellie Eddie Gallagher stuff. We talked

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Speaker 1: about that fairly frequently, and I just feel like somebody

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Speaker 1: put it in email form, like, you know, why are

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Speaker 1: these guys not necessarily getting a bad rapid? I mean,

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Speaker 1: some of it is are things that they're accused of doing,

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Speaker 1: but why does it seem to be well, how calm,

347
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Speaker 1: like every time you turn around, like somebody somebody in

348
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: the military misbehaving in some way and it's Navy Seal.

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Speaker 1: It's it's that it's a perception. Is it reality? Though?

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Speaker 1: Um and I can tell you because I have worked

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Speaker 1: as a as an investigative journalist. It partly is a

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Speaker 1: perception like, yes, there are seals doing things they probably

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing, but there are guys on the Army

354
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Speaker 1: side that are also misbehaving and doing stuff, um that

355
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Speaker 1: we've covered here, um killings, murders, drug trafficking, spousal abuse,

356
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Speaker 1: like the whole gamut. Like let's take the um, the

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Speaker 1: Jason star Tory trial, the court martial where um he

358
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Speaker 1: was this was a Special Forces officer and um, he

359
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Speaker 1: was abusive towards women, um, and he was recently sentenced

360
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Speaker 1: to ten years in prison. But that trial did not

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Speaker 1: receive point zero one percent of the coverage that let's

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Speaker 1: say that Eddie Gallagher has received. Now, I was the

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Speaker 1: only person who wrote about star Tory for over like

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Speaker 1: a year, and then the Army Times finally wrote one

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Speaker 1: article about it as he was about to be sentenced. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that so you've got two articles out there, well

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Speaker 1: three with the follow up I wrote, so me and um,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I can't remember the woman's name at

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Speaker 1: the Army Times who wrote an article about it finally. Um,

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Speaker 1: but okay, two articles about Star Tori that was it.

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Speaker 1: So there's something on any Gallier every day every day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there are soldiers in the Army and Army Special

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Speaker 1: Operations who have done bad things and are have gone

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Speaker 1: to court martial, have been drummed out of service, et cetera.

375
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Speaker 1: But it hasn't received it received the same coverage. So

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Speaker 1: there is a perception issue at play as well. Okay, well, uh,

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Speaker 1: perception isn't I like the way you were to the

378
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: perception isn't necessarily reality. But um, it's it's unfortunate that

379
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Speaker 1: seals are getting a bad It's unfortunate because maybe they're

380
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: doing it, maybe they're not. Who knows this this? I

381
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: mean some of them haven't come in and sometimes there

382
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Speaker 1: is a culture there that gets out of control. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's what we said on the last

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Speaker 1: podcast that what's come out of the Eddie Gallagher trial

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Speaker 1: is like that seal platoon is pretty out of control.

386
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Speaker 1: And I didn't want to go back to that, but

387
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Speaker 1: it's like, are the are the higher ups, like you know,

388
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Speaker 1: the inmates running the asylum and it's just like it

389
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: just comes it trickles down from that and it's like, yeah, well,

390
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: you know if all I know is crazy behavior. But

391
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Speaker 1: at the same time, not every seal platoon is acting

392
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Speaker 1: like that, and people people need to keep that in mind.

393
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Speaker 1: And like what I what I would hate to think

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Speaker 1: is that when people meet a Navy seal they automatically

395
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: have that conclusion like book Deals and hair Jael, like, no, no,

396
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: they're like a lot of these guys are professionals, and

397
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Speaker 1: like we shouldn't jumped the conclusions that, like you know,

398
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: they're all just out for themselves or they're bad people.

399
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: Come on, come on, man. And I do think it's

400
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Speaker 1: a shame in some ways that they that the unit

401
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: has kind of gotten that reputation over the years. So

402
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: as Jack said, if if you are current seal, former seal, whatever,

403
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: and you want to weigh in on this on this discussion,

404
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: free yeah, man, Or like if if if you send

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Speaker 1: us an email and I can verify you are who

406
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: you say you are, I mean you can even call

407
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: in and you know you can talk about it, uh,

408
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: I mean on a future podcast. It's not like you're

409
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: you know, by no means that you're trashing them. You're

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Speaker 1: just giving an observation. No, No, I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to trash the the entire you know, special Naval

412
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: special warfare community by any means um But I mean

413
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: there's former seals out there who can offer better insight

414
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: to that than I can, absolutely, so feel free to

415
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: reach out please. Um we're gonna bring on Joe Goldberg,

416
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: former c i A, so no seals talk there. But

417
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: before we do that, I want to let you guys

418
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: know that the show is to you by air Drop.

419
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420
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421
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422
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Speaker 1: There's some great stuff on there that's heavily discounted, but

423
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424
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426
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Speaker 1: Club fishing spears, so get on those now, because if

427
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: you look for things like the Gerber multi tool that's gone,

428
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: you can't buy them anymore. You snooze, you lose. It's

429
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: up to It's up now on its own section on

430
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: Create Club dot us, or you can go to store

431
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: dot Crate Club dot us to check it all out.

432
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: That store dot crate Club dot us. There's tons of

433
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: gear that you're going to love that you can find

434
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: on air drop. And with that we welcome on Joe

435
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: Goldberg joining us. Now we have Joe Goldberg first and

436
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: foremost everything every bio I've read on him. I want

437
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: to make sure I mentioned this because he went both

438
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: undergrad and he got his masters the University of Iowa.

439
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: He's a big Hawkeyes guy, So I want to get

440
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: that right out in the open, right off the bat.

441
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the most important thing we're gonna

442
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: talk about today, So go hawk eyes. Uh No. But

443
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,479
Speaker 1: in seriousness, he worked eight years in the c I

444
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: A covert actions and he did information collection and analysis

445
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: and for over thirty years who worked in the intelligence field,

446
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: which is quite a lengthy career. Joe, that was a mouthful.

447
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: Did I miss anything? Off the bat? You've missed things,

448
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: you added things, But that's just fine and pretty much

449
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: doing monk by time. Now it's been teaching goes in

450
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: the consulting time. Congratulations, how's how's teaching going? I like it.

451
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: It's I might agree, from Iowa Communications and Politics. I

452
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: teach communications and a couple of colleges I teach a

453
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: course in Iowa a couple of times a year and

454
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: keep too busy. I like it. I knew that's where

455
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: I would end up in education. That's cool. So Joe,

456
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: you came as a recommendation from a good friend, j T.

457
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: Patton as his pen name. I'm really glad we could

458
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: get you on the show today. And Uh, as I

459
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: told Jason the last show, I always try to figure

460
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: out how to break the ice, and I just kind

461
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: of start off with, you know, how did a guy

462
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: like you wind up in the intelligence business? Well, that's

463
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: actually a good story. It's a good question. Uh. I'm

464
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: an old schooler. I'm back in the eighties. So I

465
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: was at Iowa getting my master's degree. I actually want

466
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: to go to law school. And I just pretty much

467
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: bombed my l s ats like I expected and was

468
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: kind of waiting around for some more applications to come around.

469
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: And they came on campus the interview of the CIA.

470
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: I had a master's degree in communications and a degree

471
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: in political science. I thought that was the best way

472
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: to put my two interests together. That was the middle

473
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: of the Iran Contra Nicaraguay want to call it time.

474
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: There's protests on campus. I was the first guy to

475
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: sign up. They were following the HR guy, the interviewer around.

476
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: I went in and I had a pretty good interview.

477
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: I was saying, this is a I wanted to go.

478
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: I always wanted to be in public service somewhere down

479
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: the road. And it took about a year various applications,

480
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: and I got in. I went into this fledgling video

481
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: and TV thing that was happening back in the eighties.

482
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: I was like the only guy around had actually had

483
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: a TV degree. So they came on campus. It was

484
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: just pretty simple. That took a while. Um, but I

485
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: had an expertise. I think they were looking for at

486
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: the time. That's interesting, So they brought you in as

487
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: a operations officer. No. I went into the director of intelligence.

488
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: I was a I was basically the video librarian that

489
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: when the video came in from around the world or

490
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: from the stuff that was recorded locally or domestically, I

491
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: watched it for stuff that might be of intelligence interests.

492
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: And when something happened overseas, uh, they didn't see it.

493
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 1: Then when something happens, they don't see. The libraries, they

494
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: don't see necessarily the newspapers. They see the television stations.

495
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: So when there is a chilly Laurel happened, so that

496
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: was all on TV. Even when we had a massacre happened,

497
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: that was all on TV. Marcos went down TV, do

498
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: Valier in the Philippi, in in Haiti, all happened on television,

499
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: and that was what we did. We're basically sort of

500
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: a second watch office, following what was happening when in

501
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: the world on this on this new twenty four cable

502
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: television and new services, and I would watch it, see

503
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: what's happening. Call up people who are used to reading

504
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: reports are coming across, you know, cables coming across the wire.

505
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: I call up and say, hey, you want to see

506
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: what's happen in your country? Right now? Here it is.

507
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: And then you know, apartheid South Africa all happened on

508
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: television and they there was there was not a mentality

509
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: towards looking at video and images as intelligence. This is

510
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: the eighties. So I was for the zealous thing. You

511
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: know what, here it is. Here is what this person

512
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: looks like right now. Here is what the forces look like.

513
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: Here is a here is the ship Achille laure What

514
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: do you know? Ground branch guys, over my shoulders. I'm

515
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: popping mitsubushies, black and white photos off my TV so

516
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: they can see what the ship looked like. It wasn't

517
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: off paper, was off the video. So I was I

518
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: was kind of a guy went into d I and

519
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: was doing all that, sort of watching TV and categorizing it.

520
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: And as low as we doing that, the operations guys

521
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: sort of would come over and say, hey, we need something,

522
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: and we need something, and they would I would sort

523
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: of have this mind for remembering things and they'd say, oh,

524
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: that's interesting. So basically, one year exactly to my date

525
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: of entry into the d I, at the first moment

526
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: I was able, they transferred me to the operations group

527
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: in the propaganda so I used my TV stuff there.

528
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. So like you were doing open source

529
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: intelligence gathering before the Internet. I mean, that's what it

530
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: comes down to. Oh absolutely, absolutely, there was when when

531
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: uh Tenement Square happens. Although I was in a sort

532
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: of slight different world. I was still doing propaganda someone

533
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: at the time, but all these things were happening, and

534
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: it was all happening visually. There was no Internet, forget that,

535
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: and then there was no source. The zero wasn't even

536
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: talked about CNN. It was a few years on the

537
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: air CNN effect back when it was when it was CNN.

538
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: It it had an impact of what we were able

539
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: to see. It was it was gaving twenty four hour

540
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: news and it was being played around the world. That

541
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: we were able to take advantage of that. And there

542
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 1: was it was all open source, There was no There

543
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: was very little that I got that was internal. I

544
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: did get some molieve that alone, but mostly it was

545
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: you know, at the Ministers of Sight Syria, when there's

546
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: hostages in Lebanon, comes onto television, wants to talk about things.

547
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: I can call it the Syria brands and say here

548
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: he is. And I could call it the Leadership Brands

549
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: and say here he is, and called the bio guys

550
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: and say here's what it looks like. Immediately, and that

551
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: was that was all brand new. That was that was

552
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: cutting edge. It was just ev just this is of

553
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: a broader question, but I'm very interested in this, this

554
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: idea that I think the advent of communications technologies is

555
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: something that almost as a human species, like we haven't

556
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: fully grappled with even now, like we're we don't really

557
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: know how to deal with it. And I feel like

558
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: you were right there at the cusp of when twenty

559
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: four hour news came around and things were really starting

560
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: to change, And I was just wondering if you have

561
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: any observations on how that um altered intelligence gathering, which

562
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: you touched on a little bit, but even even like

563
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: in a broader sense, like how it changed the world. Well,

564
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: the excellent question, in fact, the sort of a question

565
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: I thought to my communications classes, like I say, a

566
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: couple of things. Everything started somewhere, and everything's connected. So

567
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: when I came along in the eighties, the patriots in

568
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: the in the intelligence community, in the military previously had

569
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: done so much to allow me to be there at

570
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: the time when television and graph and doing videos for

571
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: insurgence groups or whatever, doing propaganda operations that was my time,

572
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: and my time helped lead hopefully to a new appreciation

573
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: for speed and for paying attention to what's real and

574
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: what's fake, and a idea of if we have it,

575
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: they have it, Okay, So if we have if we're

576
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to use television, radio, graphics,

577
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, as propaganda tools, which is what

578
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: I did, then so are they and are we ahead,

579
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: are we behind? And now it became the Internet comes

580
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: along and we were at the forefront, We the United

581
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: States with the forefront of sort of how to use

582
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: the Internet, and everybody catches up and so the tools

583
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: and we have a helicopter, they got to help with helicopter.

584
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: We have the Internet. They got there to that. How

585
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: do you use that more effectively to get your message across?

586
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: And then it becomes content and content always wins. But

587
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: when it came down the actual channel, it was it

588
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: was exploding at the time, but on our time, you know,

589
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: it was a videotape, and videotape lead to digital. You know,

590
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: digital lead to basically the Internet, and all the capabilities

591
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: are out there now, but it's all connected, but it

592
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: still comes down to content. Message always comes down to content. Interesting,

593
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: and then you got moved over to doing essentially disinformation, right. Well,

594
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: I always called me disinformation is a tough for it.

595
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: I can't define that disinformation. In fact, I wanted to.

596
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: I sort of I used to say, we just kind

597
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: of tell the truth in our own way, you know,

598
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: we let sometimes we just tell the truth about the

599
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: Soviets are doing in Afghanistan. It's all you need, or

600
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: what's happening in Nicaragua or Uganda, or or pick up

601
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: place for the castro. I mean it's bad enough. You

602
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: don't really need to do a lot of disinformation. You

603
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: just need to tell the truth in your own way

604
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: and get it to the people which are going to

605
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: have an impact. That's probably the biggest we I think

606
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: we were able to target. It's comfer to do, but

607
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: we're able to target who we wanted to see our

608
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: stuff a little bit better, only because the internet and

609
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: social media is so pervasive. It's it's you know, you

610
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: can create websites and social media targeting the certain groups,

611
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: but you still are just out there. When there was

612
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: three or four television channels and whatever number of radio stations,

613
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: you got them, you got a captured audience. So I

614
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: think we can target We could have targeted them. We

615
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: targeted the message better, whatever it might be. Content wise.

616
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: This information, yes, truth, yes, um, current events yes UM.

617
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: I always sort of lean on the side of the

618
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: gray area between truth and not quite the dark blackness.

619
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: In fact, if you asked me up against the wall

620
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: that I ever due to this information flat out lying

621
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: about something, I have to think about it for a bit.

622
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure I did. I just can't remember said, yeah,

623
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: that's a lie. We made stuff that was that was

624
00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: um that it's intent was not what people thought it was,

625
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: but the content itself wasn't a lie. I don't think

626
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: how good questions And then how is what you guys

627
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: do different than what's say the Broadcasting Board of Governors

628
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: or Voice of America does. Well, I always get that.

629
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: I get that's always a good question too. I mean

630
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: we have we have the perspectives that we're dealing with

631
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: from the point of view the intelligence community saying, hey,

632
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: this is that, this is what we're trying to get across.

633
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: Go do this and you know, let me know how

634
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: it goes. And that's what we follow. Follow the rules

635
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 1: of what the intelligence community says we can and cannot do.

636
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: And we're not there. Just I was never just trying

637
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: to nation build American way, uh, you know, all legitimate

638
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: good things, you know, giving news around the world. We

639
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: were targeting certain specific topics, whether it be drug traffickers

640
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: or if it was terrorists. I was at the Gaddafi

641
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: a lot after Narco traffickers a lot um a little

642
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: bit on you know, all the Silver Union number one

643
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: when there was when there was a civil union. I mean,

644
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: that's that's where I was targeting our stuff. And if

645
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: and if Ronald Reagan gets up there, President Reagan says

646
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: Mr Gorbachoff turned down that wall, turned on this wall,

647
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: my whole life changes, all right for six months to

648
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: a year because we're not working on the directive to

649
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: work on the Brulin wall. So that that that was

650
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: saying that I would say different in you know, the

651
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: content and the message was specifically for the intelligence communitys

652
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: opposed it just the American way. Could you talk a

653
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: little bit about that, like when you say, I'm just

654
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: interested as far as the extent to what you can

655
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: talk about it. How does that actually work that you

656
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: you're you're producing content that is targeted? I mean, what

657
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: what is that process? How does that work? And what's

658
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: the target audience? Well, I don't think I don't know

659
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: if the zak the process has changed too much between

660
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: then and now. Um, obviously it's really the intelligent cycle.

661
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: Someone gives us something that we need to do, or

662
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: we come up with an idea saying, you know, this

663
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: is a big deal. We need to be paying attention

664
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: to this, or to act upon this if it was

665
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: Noriega and Panama. That didn't come to me. It was like, go,

666
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: we're going after Noriega and Panama, and we need radio

667
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: to do that, and we need radio content that is

668
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: uh saying certain things at certain times that isn't gonna

669
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: be shut down by the government or it's very difficult

670
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: to be shut down by the government. So he sitting

671
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: around like, how we how can we do that? And

672
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, you think about it and you create the

673
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: content which is pretty much obvious what we're trying to

674
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: say about drug trafficking Noriega versus what we what we

675
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: really want, and then you figure out what the I'm

676
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: trying to I'm not I'm skirting some of the edges here.

677
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: Um yea, yeah, you're right up the content that you

678
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: know and then you and you create and then what

679
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: I think it was great about this and I don't

680
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: know exactly sure they have and now we were just

681
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: trying to be creative. What what new things can we

682
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: use to make people pay attention because there's even then

683
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: there was still a lot of stuff. And now I

684
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: teach social media, with social media and and all the

685
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: different channels, how do you grab people's attention. I mean,

686
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: the terrorists had the same attention grabbing tools and the

687
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: captured audience as we do when we're trying to talk

688
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: to them. And back then we had a captured audience,

689
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: but the channels were television, radio, some print last of speeches,

690
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: So you know how you know? Is it music videos? Maybe?

691
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: Is it documentary filmmaking? Yeah, is it television programming, serial programming,

692
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: could be It's all these things that were you knew

693
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: there was eyes on that particular content. Now it's a

694
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: little bit, I think a little bit more difficult to

695
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: know when you put something out there on on on

696
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,959
Speaker 1: social media, Twitter, name your name, your behind the scenes platform,

697
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: who's actually reading it? With the number? I know they can,

698
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: I know they can do the big data mining. But

699
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: impact is always the question did that thing have an

700
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: impact on that action? And I could never say it did.

701
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: I would never be very difficult to say it did.

702
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: But we did have an impact on bringing down the

703
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: Berlin Wall. And I want to say yes, but I

704
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: don't know the statistics to prove that. Keep talking about

705
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: like how you did that? I mean, was it like

706
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: radio transmissions into East Germany or uh, well, I was

707
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 1: the video guy and let the radio guys do their thing. Um,

708
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: we did everything possibly could. Uh. We made documentary films.

709
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: How do you get the document short documentary film where

710
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: it's seven minutes or thirty minutes, seven minutes about is

711
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: about people's attention span? Back then? It's much shorter now.

712
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: But you know, saying you have a seven or thirty

713
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: minute documentary film that lays it out, that's really interesting.

714
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: You know what's made in the way that you think

715
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: that your potential end users will be paying attention. So

716
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: you need to create a process where that gets distributed

717
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: to you know, intelligence, Uh assets, we have access to

718
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: the media who can place these things or in position

719
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: to go out and uh gather it legal or open

720
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: and the open means so where does there's no suspicion

721
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: on them that this is pand into them in some

722
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: dark gallery. They just got it through the normal course

723
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: of their own business and they're able to show that

724
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: whether it's we did use try to do music videos.

725
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: We did try to do Um the things that the

726
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: youth would would rally, would would would make them pay

727
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: attention and music video to nineteen eighties mid eighties thinking

728
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: when we did music videos, MTV have been on the

729
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: air for just a few years. Everybody was doing these things.

730
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: What's going to make the youth movement on the East

731
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: want to we want to get up tight. Let's do something.

732
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: Let's get some popular music person to write some popular

733
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: song at least in their area and see if we

734
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 1: can make something that might have an impact to say, yeah,

735
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: making the number one song if we can. And and

736
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, we had to. We had the ability to

737
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: think of those types of things and try to do

738
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: those types of things. So thanks thanks to my bosses

739
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: for a lot for doing that. Sometimes they shut us down.

740
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: Sometimes they you know, I tried some things or brought

741
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: some ideas and actually would help make the Night States

742
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: government make money off of it. But you know they

743
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: were they were a little bit too fringe e for them,

744
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: a little bit too far um. They didn't quite grasp

745
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: some ideas. Are there any like music videos out there

746
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: from back in the eighties that we can like look

747
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: up on YouTube and that the that the CIA had

748
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: a hand in I got no. I will never confirm

749
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: her Demni where we made it. We made a music

750
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: video and if I could, I wouldn't remember it. It

751
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: was It was not in my language. Just put that

752
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: way and um uh the answer I would say no,

753
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: I would say no. You know, um, I can't remember

754
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: the name of the names of some of those things were,

755
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: but there was there was, there was activity behind some

756
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: of those behind music. Even nowadays, when I worked in

757
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: political campaigns and other things, you hit the culture where

758
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: the culture sits. You know, social media mass communications are

759
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: hitting the youth, the cultural movement that that brings up,

760
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: brings up the countries, and we're doing exact same things.

761
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 1: We just had a little bit more limited tools set. Uh.

762
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: So it was at that time it was music and

763
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: short videos and it was humor, um whatever. I like humor.

764
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: Humor is very impactful if it's done right. Now every

765
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: has the same sense of humor. So it's hard, it's

766
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: very um. You got to be cautious using humor. But

767
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: if you have an idea of your end users it's

768
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 1: done right, you can have a nice impact sarcasm of course,

769
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: serenite life type of things. But the answer to your

770
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: question in the shortness is no, like the father than debate,

771
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: I've did everything wrong, but I teach people debate tactics

772
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: for presidential politics that the answer the question is no,

773
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: and then all that other stuff, and I wonder the

774
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: time you start. One of the other things I wanted

775
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: to ask you, is that back back in the day

776
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: when you were doing this, you could produce, you know,

777
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: being a documentary or a music video or um. Of

778
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: course there's other people who do pamphlet drops, um, there's

779
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: all sorts of different propaganda. But you, guys, I think

780
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: in your in your in your area, it was easier

781
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: to target the audience. And I was wondering if today,

782
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: with the Internet, if there are legal implications because when

783
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: you put something on the Internet, it could potentially be

784
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: viewed by an American audience, And is that something you

785
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: have to deal with? Oh that that drew me on

786
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 1: my mind. Blowback a right, So it was all brand new.

787
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: So if we were making a video or some sort

788
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: of film that was gonna be shown publicly somewhere, it

789
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,959
Speaker 1: was right the Oversight Committee report because there's a chance

790
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: for to be blown back in the United States of America.

791
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: And and the answer to that question was yes, elected

792
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: official or staffer for elected official, there's a chance, but

793
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: that's not the intent of what we're trying to do here.

794
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 1: And it's gonna have no impact in the US. It

795
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: is the chance, by the way, the chances of it

796
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: happening are slim and none, and it's like we're not

797
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: monitoring where it's where what's happening. But it was a

798
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: very fourth vanguard of we're gonna put something on the

799
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: digital television waves and that's gonna there's and there is

800
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: a chance it's coming back. And now it's coming back.

801
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: And I actually it's a good question. And I don't

802
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: ask them, these these guys, but and I'm sure people

803
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: who are listening who happen to have an answer going

804
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: how people don't know? The answer is how do you

805
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: keep whether what we're trying to do from not blowing

806
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: back in the States. And I gotta believe that there

807
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 1: has just been a understanding that intent and um, you know,

808
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: maybe telling an advance, getting the getting the types of

809
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: approval of advance they're required. Two, overcome policy because policy

810
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: is always more restrictive than law. We're always doing those

811
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: policies about that. I've got to believe that the in

812
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: that and social media guys are out there now in

813
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: the basements of all these buildings are are have the

814
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: the correct roadmap and rules Because it's coming, it's you know,

815
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: the moment it's sent, it's here, right, So let's there's

816
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: got to have been a massive discussions about that, and

817
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: I gotta believe it comes on the messaging content and intent.

818
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: When we made a video, if there was a defector,

819
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of defectors back then in

820
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: the Soviet days, and if we had to make something

821
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: for Reagan was a video guy, so we made videos

822
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: for him to see these people, and we made sure

823
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: that the agency symbol was on the very front of it.

824
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: So there's no way when this got leaked to the

825
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: Washington Post or whoever that it was, that it was

826
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: seeing this propaganda. It was here's we made this, and

827
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: that was there was this fear it was and apprehension

828
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: about that, at least my my world. And I gotta

829
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: believe that the same fear net prinsion is there for

830
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: the digital warriors, but they have the correct marchings to before,

831
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: because it is out there. It is. I mean, now

832
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: it's we're in a totally different era. And I wonder

833
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: what you make of UM everything that happened in UM

834
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: with you know, Russian influence operations directed against the United States.

835
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like you're one, you're one of

836
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: our originals when it comes to this sort of quote

837
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: unquote warfare. I was just wondering what you think of

838
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: all that. Well, that's that's um, that's um an excellent question.

839
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: I mean, I have my own personal views, and when

840
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: it comes down to work, having work in politics for

841
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: these years, I've almost just staying away because it's just

842
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: a very hot topic. I'll give my opinion because you asked.

843
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: This is Joe's opinion based upon experience. First of all,

844
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: we're doing they're doing it to us, We're trying to

845
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: do it to them. It's always the same from my

846
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: first comment. And we've been they've been meddling in our politics,

847
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 1: we've been meddling in other governments. About meddling. It's been

848
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: our mission, intelligence mission, to do things about certain trees governments.

849
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: That's that's what we're supposed to do at all. I'm

850
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: all for it. But the Soviets did was great, was

851
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: brilliant Russians. But the Russians did was very simple, was

852
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: very targeted, and they just used human nature too. Spread

853
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: the word and they uh, you know whatever, whether they

854
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: were in the Macedonian kids who were just doing it

855
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: for money or they were being manipulated by other entities.

856
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: And we know that's what the certain Russian intelligence people

857
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: were doing. They did it, and they did it because

858
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 1: they understood American culture and the split of our country.

859
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: What I what I sort of I've been wondering why

860
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: they hasn't been brought up. Is what happened was if

861
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: it's being something is being covered in Twitter or on Facebook,

862
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: which was the most of the places, it's getting picked

863
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: up by the broad media. All right, if it's if

864
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: it's if I'm not uh following that website or that

865
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: Twitter started, I'm not seeing it. I'm only getting it

866
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: because some larger media entity has picked it up. And

867
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: whether the twenty four hour news guys, who are you know,

868
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: the first of the news gonna be breaking. It's a

869
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: mentality that they're in now. We've got to have it first. First. First,

870
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 1: we're gonna say the name of this person, even though

871
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: it's not the right name. We're gonna we're gonna have

872
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 1: breaking news twenty four hours a day, which I haven't

873
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: quite figured that out yet. Um, I can't be breaking

874
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 1: news for twenty four hours a day. But so they

875
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: are all culpable, all right, all of them, and some

876
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: worse than others picking up the stuff that the Soviets

877
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: knew that the mainstream media would pick up and and

878
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: their way and they and they broadcast it to the

879
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: people who are not registered for those Twitter sites or

880
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: those Facebook sites, and made those stories that were being

881
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: brought up by the Russians to these sites, made them

882
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: national news, in my opinion. And I don't know exactly

883
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: conversation has been had about that, And that's very simplistic

884
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: discussion of what happened, because it's pretty complex. But they

885
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: did what we would do. What is the way human

886
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: beings reacted news that that's coming to them? How do

887
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: use information do they What type of stuff did they

888
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: act on? What do they not act upon? What do

889
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,240
Speaker 1: they tell their friends about? What do they share without

890
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: even reading it? What entities do they trust the most?

891
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: They trust their friends the most, they trust perhaps a

892
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: certain news groups. And then again inside their bubble and

893
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: that's all they see. And the Russians understood that, and

894
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: they played that bubbles bubbles and put out hundreds and

895
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: hundreds of sites and messages into those bubbles. They got

896
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: picked up by the broader media, and those messages occasionally

897
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,720
Speaker 1: got spread and then it became a national news story.

898
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: And let's just say for the record that what they're

899
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: what they try to do is abhorrent towards department democracy

900
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: and we should do everything we possibly can to pay

901
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: them back everything. And it's that is it's they're doing.

902
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: Then they're doing their jobs in in a in a

903
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: Russian kind of way. But they had the advantage of

904
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 1: the American culture, society, freedom and press, all those types

905
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: of things, and the explosion and sort of uncontrolled world

906
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 1: of social media to just wrangle around and ride, and

907
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: they did it good enough. Do you think that Americans

908
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: are particularly naive when it comes to being susceptible to

909
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 1: these sorts of influence campaigns? Absolutely, and statistics proven. It's

910
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: part of my class. I mean, I am a believer

911
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: in the filter bubble, which is, you know, we all

912
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: we we pretty much got ourselves inside the news that

913
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: we want to accept, our friends that we uh uh

914
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 1: follow or friends with in information sharing wise, they're they're

915
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: inside the bubble and it's very hard to get that

916
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: stuff that might be more balanced or outside your bubble,

917
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: because that's not the way the algorithms work right. And

918
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 1: so the if you fill the algorithms that the major

919
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: um computing companies, whether the news filtering companies with their

920
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: the stuff that you want, you're going to get the

921
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: stuff that you want. And human Nature and and pe

922
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 1: research and pick a research company. They say that people

923
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: share the stuff. They don't They don't read what they share.

924
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: It just the title and something they agree with. They

925
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: never look they very rare look at the source. Actually

926
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: quizzed my classes and there these are you know, college kids,

927
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: or they say where do you get your news? What

928
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: news journalists do trust? Who do you go to when

929
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: you hear something? Do check out the sources? And the

930
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: answers are almost university zero. I mean in in our day,

931
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: it was you know, you always watched Walter Cronkite or

932
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: you watch Humpy briefly and then and then early the

933
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: early good news days in this in the nineties, I know,

934
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 1: and maybe it was a wolf for whoever it might be,

935
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: and I but nobody. There's no journalists today that people

936
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: can go to and say, ah, that's the person who

937
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: I trust for news. And what they say is alter

938
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: because it's filtered the way that is believable. And now

939
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: those people don't exist. It just comes and it comes

940
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: from something dot com. It's in't forward to me by

941
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: some friend of a friend, and I like the title,

942
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna share it to my friends, maybe

943
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: not even read and probably not even read it statistically.

944
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: And that is the way we work. That's the way

945
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: the internetworks and the human nature works, except for the

946
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: rare cases of people who do pay attention, but the

947
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: majority of people just let life happen. And the Russians

948
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: played into that. They did what they can do in

949
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: twenties sixteen. You have to make sure it doesn't happen again.

950
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: But that's and that's what's led to the sort of

951
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: split culture we have because you're going to get what

952
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: you like and you're gonna get what you don't like

953
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: in the same thing to other guys, and you're never

954
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: gonna talk to each other because the informations you're getting

955
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: doesn't allow you to think across the lines, acro outside

956
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: your bubble. Because I mean, that's that's exactly what intelligence

957
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: services do, right. They look for shism in society, some

958
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: sort of social cleavage and jam themselves in there or

959
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: and it's basic divide and conquer right, absolutely, absolutely, if

960
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 1: you're if you're giving your unless you're trying to show

961
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: up your base, or you're trying to show up some

962
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: of who's in power, you're trying to show up the

963
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: populace in the country that is that may have been oppressed,

964
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 1: or you know, you're giving them the message that will

965
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: make them in in a broader sense, enlightened and think

966
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: the way that you bring ideas in their brains that

967
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: you want them to think about and process them in

968
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: a way that you hopefully you're processed to our way

969
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: and you can find the whether it's the tribal leaders

970
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: or you're gonna try to the ownership of the media

971
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 1: where it's a little bit more control of other countries

972
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: there there, you know, you know what owners are and

973
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 1: you can go to them and you might go to

974
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: say do this for us, and they know they also

975
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: in all the newspapers and they and they have certain

976
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 1: regional or tribes or ethnics behind them. You can go

977
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: to them and you can put that message in there

978
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: and you can just pump it out and you can

979
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: pump it as much as as you possibly can to

980
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: flidify that your issue and to keep pushing as you say, schism,

981
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: keep pushing it further to suffocate them and to give

982
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: us more space to operate. And uh, both in the

983
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: digital world now that is that is twenty four hour job.

984
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean I was carrying videotape around

985
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 1: it right there, was mailing things out because that's the

986
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: way that was the internet of the time, all right.

987
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: If you need if you want to get your stuff

988
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: to somebody, they wanted your they wanted to videotape in

989
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: some country because it's expensive stuff, they can they could

990
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: run it, and then they have a free videotape. They

991
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: have the tape. You know, that's a totally different mentality

992
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: than it is now because we're just staturated positively and negatively.

993
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: The filtering, messaging content and filtering is what makes propaganda

994
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: operations and information flow and or not flow effective and

995
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: not effective. It all comes down to message. I think

996
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's amazing what you just said before that

997
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, people assimilate information and then very quickly forget

998
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 1: the source of that information if they ever even knew

999
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: in the first place, and then it just becomes sort

1000
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: of an established fact in their mind. Exactly. Well, absolutely,

1001
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: when I worked and I worked in Mortar Rola for

1002
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: for years and years in the corporate area, and the

1003
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: first thing one of my bosses says is, if you

1004
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: put a number or a word up on the board here,

1005
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 1: it's sticking. And I knew that for my old days,

1006
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: but I was learning the corporate world. You say this,

1007
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 1: they're not going to stick. You can stick and give qualifiers.

1008
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: All you want. This is I'm just you're asking for

1009
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: a number and this is the same name of campaign.

1010
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: How much is this campaign going to cost me? I

1011
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: don't know, Well I need a number. Well, okay, I'm

1012
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: gonna put a number up here, but it may not

1013
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: be the right one, so don't stick with it. But

1014
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: it sticks. It sticks every time because they've seen it.

1015
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: So as someone sees a headline that says something, it sticks.

1016
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: And it's very hard to to unstick things because once again,

1017
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: inside their own universe of information, they're getting more sticky

1018
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: things that support them. They're very rarely going to be

1019
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: seeking out things that are going to unglue. And if

1020
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:18,959
Speaker 1: you can find an individ individuals or the demographic which

1021
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: is more open to various thoughts, alternative issues or ideas

1022
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: or um well against that alternative issues, ideas or channels

1023
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: to get things. Then you have a way to to

1024
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: manipulate to communicate your message through. You know, it's the

1025
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: America was primed to be used. American people are primed

1026
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: to be used. Don't pends even changed that much? Um,

1027
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: But you know, if we're trying to get to a

1028
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: population overseas, you have to know the culture. You got

1029
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: to know it from the from the president to the leadership,

1030
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: to the village leaders to whoever. Might be the same

1031
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: things for political campaigns, but you're not getting your message across.

1032
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: It's just why say something if it's not gonna have

1033
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: an impact on the people you're trying to get to.

1034
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: And you need to understand fully how they get their information,

1035
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: what drives that culture, what drives them to act fully?

1036
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: So how do that? It's harder back in the eighties,

1037
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: how do you think we begin to counter this in

1038
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: the United States when we have a very naive population?

1039
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 1: I mean, how do we wage counter information warfare? Well,

1040
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: I asked that question. This is America, right, We're freedom

1041
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: of the press and freedom of speech and never right

1042
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: to say good things and bad things? Right? Yeah? Yeah,

1043
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: So I asked my student, my students this because they

1044
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: are the media users. They they are total digital natives.

1045
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: They've never read a newspaper. Very really then the newspaper

1046
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: or magazine or a book back almost it's almost. I

1047
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,919
Speaker 1: always do a survey and it's almost zero of them

1048
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: have read a newspaper, book or magazine, very very small numbers.

1049
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: It's all YouTube and um is Facebook on YouTube, Graham

1050
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: stamp chat. So how do you how do you that's

1051
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: the new culture? How do I if I was going

1052
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: to go after those files on the outside coming in,

1053
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: you're going after the youth. If I was my guy,

1054
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: it's my time. I was saying, how do we use?

1055
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: How do we community not use? How do we communicate,

1056
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: break enlighten the users of social media so that they

1057
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: are able to think, appreciate, accept even looking at a

1058
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: different viewpoint. And that's kind of how I run my class,

1059
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: my social media class, to let them think these new things.

1060
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: And it comes down and I don't know the answer.

1061
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: Your question once again is I don't have an answer

1062
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: because it's so huge America. So the verse, the new

1063
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: apps are are hundreds of day. How do you control that?

1064
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 1: How do you how do you get into that? And

1065
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: the answers. You can't and if you don't, we don't

1066
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: have We don't have a national consciousness like we used

1067
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: to in the old days. Mostly you watched Walter Cronkite.

1068
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: You watch Huntley Brinkley too, but you you know, Walter

1069
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: Cronkite would say something and we would go, that's news.

1070
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: It's it's not editorialized. This guy is giving us the news.

1071
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: And you watch Johnny Carson at night to see how

1072
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: he felt about it. All right, Johnny would do he

1073
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: was Johnny wasn't political, but he would he would laugh

1074
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: about things, and he would make you feel he would

1075
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: bring up the society and the news of the day

1076
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 1: and he would make you think about it. Where Walter

1077
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: informed you about it, and that doesn't exist in today

1078
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: at all. That Daily Show and John Stewart sort of

1079
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: was doing that, and the guys and now are doing that.

1080
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: But there's so many of them now now what's this

1081
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: used to be just daily and then and then they not.

1082
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: There's a lot of them and every network is trying

1083
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: to have their So how do you how do you

1084
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: grasp that? And the one constant actually in the United

1085
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: States culture, what's Let me ask you, what's the one

1086
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: constant United States cultures been around for thirty, uh fifty,

1087
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: forty years of in American sort of consciousness. And I

1088
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: think about my timing here. Forty years of consistency in

1089
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: American consciousness. Uh yeah, it's Saturday Night Live and making

1090
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: how many Surday Night Live has been around. It's been

1091
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: there every week except for reruns. And it's changed its politicals,

1092
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, discussion, it's it's pro, it's against. It is

1093
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: what it is. But people watch it and has had

1094
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: a following for decades that is um of a certain kind.

1095
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: But it's consistent, and on Monday or Sunday, everybody's running

1096
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: Sarday Night Live routines. We didn't we were kids. You go,

1097
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: you watch Surday Night Live and you go to school

1098
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: on Monday and you do all the routines. Right. One

1099
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: of the originals you know it was, is what it's

1100
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: been around forever. So I think that is one that

1101
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: has been at least there. You could say to eight

1102
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: Show and those types of things that they've changed, they've

1103
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 1: changed leaders, they've changed sort of, they've changed everything, but

1104
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: there is no You asked the question, what news person

1105
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: does our current culture had that we might be able

1106
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 1: to influence, to make the break that thing that you're

1107
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 1: asking about. There is no answer when the shooting happens

1108
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: in the United States. I asked my class that monually,

1109
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: where did you hear it? Where did you hear about this? First? Twitter? Facebook?

1110
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: I got this text former friend. And then I asked

1111
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: the next question, where did you go once you've heard

1112
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: about it? Where'd you go to find out more about it?

1113
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: And I say there. I say there's a specific person

1114
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: or location that you went, and they answer his university.

1115
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: There is nobody universal. They just kind of go out right,

1116
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: nobody trusts these news now nobody nobody trusts these social

1117
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: media giants either. So it's just like total tribal chaos.

1118
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: And people get there get their information now from memes,

1119
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: which is increased. I agree. I teach memes because memes

1120
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: have to have a political impact. Jifts have a comic gets,

1121
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: but jifts have a have a political impact. Yeah, tell

1122
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 1: us more about that, well, I mean, I mean today's

1123
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: Democratic uh debate mean day and and and jift day,

1124
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: which I was kind of just actually kind of looking

1125
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: some of those before it came on the going after Delaney,

1126
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 1: he seems to be the one that seems to be

1127
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: the comic relief. Um I would would you like him

1128
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:28,479
Speaker 1: or not? But he happened to be the one people

1129
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: are talking about the most because he had the most

1130
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 1: spatial expressions, I guess, and Twitter went off on them.

1131
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: But you know, if someone puts out a mean that's

1132
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: inaccurate or is biased, that may not be inaccurate. It

1133
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: maybe actually be positively truthful, but it's brought up in

1134
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: a biased way. It's not showing the story that numbers

1135
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,919
Speaker 1: correct comma. But here's the fine front and people look

1136
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 1: at that, and then they forded on and it's every topic,

1137
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 1: every domestic topic I can think of. You know, I

1138
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: don't there's actually mean truth dot com or some subtlence

1139
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: things like that. I look at that sort of says

1140
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: is the data in this meme real? But someone says,

1141
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,439
Speaker 1: this amount of people, we spent this amount of money

1142
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: in wars overseas, and this many people have died, We've

1143
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,439
Speaker 1: killed as many people. This is what the minimum ways

1144
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: should be. Another countries, other countries have healthcare. Whatever it

1145
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: might be your issue. I don't care whether what's your

1146
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: what's your point of view is. But when that stuff

1147
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: comes out and people see it and it's been biased.

1148
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: It gets sticks, just like my other comments of a

1149
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: while ago. It's sticks and people and it gets forwarded

1150
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: and those who the people who create it know it

1151
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: and they pump it out. It's it's it's it's the

1152
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:45,959
Speaker 1: Macedonian kids in who put out all those uh click

1153
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: bay types of titles because they knew people to be

1154
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: a click on them, and and they then a political

1155
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: point of view. They just knew that these memes and

1156
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 1: these titles, these these headlines were meat and people are

1157
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: going to grab them. And the meme guys are the executives,

1158
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: same way, and it's easily share able. You don't need

1159
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: to do anything that will makes them so it's it's

1160
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: it's fascinating to talk to people who share them too,

1161
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: because I've I've brought up to people who share a

1162
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: meme like one that's just completely false false, where it's

1163
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: showing a picture of somebody you're saying it's this person,

1164
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: but it's really not that person at all, and point

1165
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: that out to them and give them some additional information

1166
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: and say like, look, this is factually inaccurate, and finally

1167
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: when they're confronted, confronted with the facts. They will the

1168
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: last resort. They'll come back to you and they'll say,

1169
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: maybe it's not factually accurate, but the spirit of it

1170
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: is true, exactly exactly. Almost your comment is almost is

1171
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: exactly correct because it is it has we were with

1172
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: way back and do their bubble, and their bubble is

1173
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 1: filmed with the filled with things that they feel is

1174
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: the right uh sense of what they want to feel,

1175
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: and so it becomes it becomes something to them. It

1176
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: fortified on both on all sides, all sides. Um, this

1177
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: isn't like to let democratic Republicans, I don't believe, you know,

1178
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: left right, middle, everybody has this has their schisms and

1179
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 1: their fringes. This isn't a them versus us. It is

1180
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: an It is an American information culture. This is a

1181
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: way that we think that is becoming much more difficult

1182
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: to have openness at that that which is a vague

1183
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: word unto itself, but a decent exchange of ideas. And

1184
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: when I when I talk to people, I'd say, you know,

1185
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: and they gave me this information, They said I saw

1186
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: this on there, and I asked them where'd you see that?

1187
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: Where'd you get that? And they say, I don't know,

1188
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 1: And I think WoT and saying the night sid, I'm

1189
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: not gonna talk to you about because what the point.

1190
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: But I asked you, I'm of those guys who kind

1191
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 1: of tries to read behind the scenes, not the news.

1192
01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: I kind of trying to read the actual document perhaps

1193
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: for things, so I can be a little more uh

1194
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,480
Speaker 1: informed about it. And that's that's not that just shuts

1195
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 1: shuts down conversations, because as you say, they keep falling

1196
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: back and falling back and falling back to the points

1197
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: as well. Basically, I believe it anyway. It may not

1198
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: be true, but I believe it. At first of all,

1199
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 1: it exists. It exists on the air, Therefore it is.

1200
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: But now we all use the same meme. Um, don't

1201
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: believe everything on on what you see on the internet,

1202
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: said Abraham Lincoln. Right, that's and that you know the

1203
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 1: famous water you know, I Einstein. But that is very telling.

1204
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: That is a very sarcastically truthful thing, because people believe

1205
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 1: everything they see in the Internet mostly because it fits

1206
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: into their mindset, and it's their mindset is being fed

1207
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: by computers and by their associates around them, friends, family, colleagues,

1208
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: whatever might be there, and they're not having a chance

1209
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: to see other things. And so when it comes down

1210
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: to how as a propping and the guy try to

1211
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 1: get food, I'm wonder what they're doing nowadays, because it's

1212
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're their geniuses and they they they've kept

1213
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: up and they know exactly what they're doing. It's just

1214
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that the best. I'll say this, I

1215
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: guarantee our guys are the best in the world. I mean,

1216
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 1: no one has got better internet people in the unities

1217
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: of America. So I'm guarantee that they are. They know

1218
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 1: what they're doing. But boy, their jobs may have been

1219
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 1: made hard but a digital world and it's not coming back.

1220
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: You think our intelligence professionals are doing a good job

1221
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: at waging the information campaign, well, that's different things to

1222
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: talk about their qualities. I don't have the metrics. If

1223
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:43,640
Speaker 1: I go back to saying I don't know, it's tough

1224
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 1: about things out data, I don't have the metrics to

1225
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: say whether we're doing a good job or a bad job.

1226
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 1: I want to believe we're doing a good job. I

1227
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: know that there's been there there is a wide of

1228
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 1: spectrum of issues that they need to talk about when

1229
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: it much starting with the terrorism world all the way up.

1230
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: But my day was narcos and communists. Now it's terrorists

1231
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: and terrorists. And so you know, saying effective is what what? What? What?

1232
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 1: What was I did on Berlin Law effective? I don't know.

1233
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 1: I know we did it, and we did it well

1234
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. Pick a topic, pick narco traffick or whatever

1235
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: it might be. So I believe first of all that

1236
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: there are people are the most qualified, best in the world,

1237
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 1: and they have all hopefully they have the tools and

1238
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: the flexibility to do what they want to do. Where

1239
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,720
Speaker 1: it comes to effective as an impact, I had to

1240
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 1: leave it to them because I don't know what they're

1241
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: trying to do. I don't know we were talking to

1242
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what means or means they're using, what

1243
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: their target is. So I would be totally totally out

1244
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 1: of my world to say they're doing a great bad

1245
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 1: job or or maybe sort of and it sort of

1246
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: kind of like that. I just know, I just know

1247
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: they're good. They are. There are people who do what

1248
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: they do. This is sort of the point of when

1249
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: I write my own stuff is their patriots. These are

1250
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 1: the people nobody knows about who get up every day

1251
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 1: and they worked their asses off, and I could get

1252
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: stock options and promotions. And they're the worst fears to

1253
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 1: be showed up in the front page of New York

1254
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: Times or Washington Post. And and they are doing a

1255
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 1: hell of a difficult job and not asking for much

1256
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 1: and there, and they are the best trained, best thought

1257
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: and they always were my day. They were the days

1258
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 1: before everybody has their morons and their jerks and their

1259
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 1: idiots and there, and they're bad guy, bad people. I

1260
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 1: get that. But overall, the drone bees who keep the

1261
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 1: operations working, who buzz into work every day and buzz

1262
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: out are the best in the world. In the United States,

1263
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 1: I would I would take back in my days. I'll

1264
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 1: take the Soviets on in popping in operations any day

1265
01:10:51,840 --> 01:11:01,560
Speaker 1: of the week. They they had a different um outlets,

1266
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 1: they had a different style. Uh, they had sort of

1267
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 1: a different audience. Because I see people sharing links to

1268
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 1: on on Facebook, to RT to this day anti American

1269
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 1: propaganda and these are these are most of my friends

1270
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: on social media or veterans who love this country. But

1271
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: they're still sharing our T links. Well, there's do I

1272
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 1: read our T look at our T I occasionally do

1273
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: because I want to know yeah, yeah, I understand in

1274
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:37,759
Speaker 1: your case. Yeah, but and and once again, not everything

1275
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 1: everybody's saying is ridiculous or untrue. They're doing the same.

1276
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 1: They're doing this is within the real most things that

1277
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,680
Speaker 1: people are going to accept and or it's what I

1278
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 1: like to do is, here's all the stuff that's real

1279
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: and true. This is the news. This happened, it was sunny,

1280
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: it was rainy, there's a bull fight. And then in

1281
01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 1: the middle of that, you put in your your thing,

1282
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 1: which looks like everything else. It is sort of like

1283
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: it's it's it's news branding, it's you know, you put

1284
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 1: your thing in and it gets played along with everything else,

1285
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: so it gets the validity of everything else around it

1286
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: and true traditional good old fashioned yellow journalism propaganda. You know,

1287
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: everything's right. And then there's this thing that you can't

1288
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 1: see it because it looks like everything else that that

1289
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 1: has been around forever. It's going on right now in

1290
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 1: the digital world. Are your friends? Are my friends enlightened

1291
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 1: enough to go and see what our t really is.

1292
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 1: No one's telling them that they have to. I asked

1293
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 1: my students, who who is ding ding ding dot com?

1294
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:44,919
Speaker 1: I don't know, So I make them do an assignment

1295
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,679
Speaker 1: to go in and find out who these guys are

1296
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: and tell me if they're real or not to open

1297
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: I'm trying to open their eyes to the fact that

1298
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 1: maybe that stuff that they're just you know, gobbling up,

1299
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 1: just may not be the right stuff. And by the way,

1300
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 1: and then tell your friend. And in no other way.

1301
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: I have no other way to figure out how to

1302
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 1: do it besides just to make these guys think a

1303
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 1: little bit more critically about what they're sucking into their

1304
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:10,639
Speaker 1: brains and don't accept everything. And if you've never had

1305
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,719
Speaker 1: even someone even challenge you on it, you're never gonna

1306
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 1: do it. Now, what's our Our teams are by the

1307
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: Russians a big deal. Russias's the country's a big country.

1308
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 1: Their enemies a big deal. They have anything immediately right,

1309
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 1: it's not gonna read it. That's the that's the way

1310
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: it's going to be. And it's very and so it's

1311
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 1: impossible to stop. But what can we do. We need

1312
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 1: to get our message out there, and get it out

1313
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: there better to the people that we want to get

1314
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: the message out too broad propaganda. I didn't have a

1315
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: lot of taste for it. Just yeah, it's not something

1316
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: that broad Pappy, you shouldn't even exist, and right says,

1317
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: what good is Propaganda's targeted, it's getting our message. I mean,

1318
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: I know there's big open propagan That's not what I did.

1319
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 1: I did. We're supporting intelligence community, supporting the president, this, this, this.

1320
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,160
Speaker 1: I didn't like to do rain for fat. I left

1321
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: when left for various reasons. But so the last stup

1322
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 1: I was doing was, let's let's talk about the rainforest

1323
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 1: and pharmaceuticals from flowers, which is a really huge topic,

1324
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 1: no problem at the topic, all in, but I want

1325
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:11,679
Speaker 1: to spend my time collecting and creating stuff on that.

1326
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 1: And didn't that know, that's not why I left, But

1327
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:18,920
Speaker 1: that's last up I was kind of doing. Come on, yeah,

1328
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the point the environments will be. I'm

1329
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: not pulling the rain for I'm all, don't tear down

1330
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: the rainforest. And you know we if we need to

1331
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 1: have access to these plants and give us help our

1332
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 1: pharmacuticle industry make the drugs that we needed, I'm all

1333
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 1: in on it. Are you trying to talk to about that?

1334
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 1: The Brazilian farmers chopping down the rainforest, they're not paying

1335
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 1: attention to it. You're talking to the Brazilian government kidding

1336
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: they're making They're making millions and millions off of these industries.

1337
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 1: How I'm how much impact the megan to have saying

1338
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: saying this in a targeted poping in operation, it would

1339
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: be doable. It would take a long time and a

1340
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,600
Speaker 1: lot of money. But they were they weren't going to

1341
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 1: do that, and they weren't doing that, which is like,

1342
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 1: oh do this come on? How could do it? Do it? Right?

1343
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 1: I was wondering on that note, if you could tell

1344
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:05,640
Speaker 1: us a little bit about your novel and maybe a

1345
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:09,640
Speaker 1: little bit about what it's based on. Novel one or

1346
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: novel two are both? Um let's start off. Let's start

1347
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: off with one and go into two. Well one is

1348
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 1: is uh let me quote unquote fiction anyways, almost say

1349
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 1: when living in debt is pretty coincidental and astigment of

1350
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 1: the authors imagination. Do you get that? Um? It is?

1351
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 1: I wrote a historical fiction. I actually wrote it between

1352
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,759
Speaker 1: two thousand and one and talk about digital versus analog

1353
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: The week the day two days at nine eleven September eleven,

1354
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: two and one had a stack of middle envelopes with

1355
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: printed papers and coverage letters and things to send out

1356
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 1: the agents in New York. And then my book, which

1357
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: is about Kaddafi and Libya and our response that the

1358
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 1: Libel disco bombing, our bombing of Libya, of Tripoli, and

1359
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,680
Speaker 1: then underneath that is this propaty in operation to manipulate

1360
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 1: the officials in Libya to do things and act upon

1361
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: our way. It's about as close as I can get you.

1362
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 1: They gotta prove it's it's it's it's um close to

1363
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 1: real in some senses. But ah, you know, I had

1364
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 1: this letter is ready to go. Nine eleven happens. I

1365
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 1: ripped open all these packages and right my we write

1366
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,800
Speaker 1: my coverl as saying terrorism if now now, if not now?

1367
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: When this is? This is two thousand and one. And

1368
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: I got a couple of comments back saying, oh, nobody

1369
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 1: wants to read about terrorists. Everybody's afraid. Of course, that

1370
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 1: was wrong, because all the great authors, the brad Thor's

1371
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: of the Vince Flynn's, and all the Martin Margraini and

1372
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 1: all these guys wrote about that in that time frame,

1373
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 1: and all the other authors yourself and whoever, are writing

1374
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 1: about real heroes, super military action thrillers, and that market

1375
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 1: of golf. I didn't publish my life GUIDs on the

1376
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 1: way happens. I have a lot of things that half

1377
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: of my life I said, I didn't get this book out.

1378
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 1: Finally I rewrite it pretty make it. I just make

1379
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 1: it better, and I self published it and it becomes

1380
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:19,439
Speaker 1: an Amazon bestseller. Oliver North Gaming Review, good review. Um,

1381
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: Dewey Clarridge, who's actually I have a character based upon

1382
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 1: him in this book and actually my nick third book. Um,

1383
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: he created the counterterrorism Center in uh C. I A.

1384
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: He's one of my mentors and friends. Um, you know

1385
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 1: he's in it, and he gave me a good review.

1386
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:38,639
Speaker 1: Mark Graining game Review. I mean, and it's sold, it's

1387
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 1: just still continues to sell, uh print and electronically. Actually,

1388
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:47,720
Speaker 1: I called it secret Wars, which is, you know, a

1389
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: euphemism for propaganda, secret wars and espionage story because I

1390
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: wanted to be about the world of espionage and my

1391
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 1: tribute this to my family and to the patriots. I

1392
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: use that for because the patriots are the people who

1393
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 1: this book was dedicated to. I used very few names

1394
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:09,679
Speaker 1: of characters because it's about these people, you know, the

1395
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 1: the intel officer, the specialist, because they are unnamed people

1396
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 1: working in the trenches to keep us safe every day.

1397
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 1: And it's not it's not you know, it's an okay

1398
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: book for being self published, but it was. It was

1399
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:25,280
Speaker 1: built for the pages. I can tell you the Pagriots

1400
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 1: story to have a second where I got that phrase.

1401
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I was in the training class, in one

1402
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:33,640
Speaker 1: of my numerous training classes in the day, and they

1403
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:36,240
Speaker 1: bring in a knock, a nonofficial cover guy. He was retiring,

1404
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: and this is actually a scene in the book, once

1405
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 1: again fictionalized book. And to make it short, he was

1406
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:45,280
Speaker 1: talking about the life of a knock and he was retiring,

1407
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 1: and he had been a very successful knock. He made

1408
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:50,639
Speaker 1: a lot of money in his coverage jobs in his world,

1409
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,559
Speaker 1: and he basically was going to give it back because

1410
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: he said I and he was getting all the song

1411
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 1: it's yours. You were into it this, I know it.

1412
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,559
Speaker 1: I was. I earned it for a reason, for a purpose,

1413
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 1: which is to help the country. And so he was

1414
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:07,640
Speaker 1: getting glad praise for that insight. And he was the

1415
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 1: one who said, you do it because you're patriots. And

1416
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:13,599
Speaker 1: he looked at it because you are the patriots. You're

1417
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: the people who are out there who are doing this job.

1418
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 1: And no one's gonna know about it, and you're doing

1419
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,320
Speaker 1: it for for everybody else. I never forgot that. I

1420
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 1: made a scene in the book. I dedicated the book

1421
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: to people. It's about people, people people, So We're Secret

1422
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: was an espionage story, and then I kind of wrote

1423
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:33,360
Speaker 1: a a sequel to it. I got a lot of

1424
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 1: people saying, write a contemporary but nobody cares about historical fiction.

1425
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,599
Speaker 1: They want to read now. Now. Now. So I worked

1426
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: in corporate intelligence and motor ole over sixteen years, and

1427
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 1: I had my little stories. I still have my agency background.

1428
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,719
Speaker 1: So my current book, which is called Spy Devils Um,

1429
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 1: is a merge of corporate intelligence and global espionage, Chinese

1430
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:03,000
Speaker 1: assassins and Ukrainian oligarchs and see in CIA incorporate malfeasance,

1431
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:06,759
Speaker 1: and almost nothing in it is not in the newspaper somewhere,

1432
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 1: and I just kind of pizza together based upon true

1433
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:12,320
Speaker 1: experiences or not, and then that right now, I'm currently

1434
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 1: seeking out an agent, if not self publish it at

1435
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 1: some point, but um, panning agents out there let me know,

1436
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: because um, you know it's it's not bad. And the

1437
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 1: third one is gonna be a shared universe between secret

1438
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 1: Wars and spy devils. So, but the first book is

1439
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:31,639
Speaker 1: all propaganda all the time. Actually, spy devils, they use

1440
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 1: their main tool I thinks, thinks sort of a mission impossible,

1441
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 1: guys who are missied impossible. Their main tools are social media.

1442
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:46,000
Speaker 1: They expose bad actors actions on social media and bring

1443
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 1: them down, whether it's internally or externally to their own

1444
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:52,879
Speaker 1: new organization. How do you mess up a drug cartel?

1445
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:56,439
Speaker 1: You make them start eating themselves from inside by spreading rumors,

1446
01:20:57,439 --> 01:20:59,720
Speaker 1: news and stuff. And that's what the spy Devils do.

1447
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 1: That's their main tool. That's kind of what the book

1448
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: is about. It a little bit. That stuff is super interesting. Um.

1449
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 1: And you know, selling a novel is really a tough,

1450
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:13,400
Speaker 1: tough deal. I know because I've tried as well. Um,

1451
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 1: it's just really hard, and especially everyone's all about counter terrorism,

1452
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: and it's really hard to sell the espionage plotline, which

1453
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways is more important, um than

1454
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,160
Speaker 1: necessarily just shooting one person in a head. Like you said,

1455
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,599
Speaker 1: isn't it better if you can turn the organization against

1456
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:31,720
Speaker 1: itself and the American taxpayer doesn't have to send our

1457
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:36,080
Speaker 1: soldiers to this country to deal with it? Uh? You

1458
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:38,240
Speaker 1: know it's cool that we had Seal Team six go

1459
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: and shoot Being Laden. I mean, he had it coming,

1460
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 1: but wouldn't have been even better if Being Laden just

1461
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 1: died in a cave somewhere completely irrelevant, no one even

1462
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,320
Speaker 1: even cared about him. The perfect world, he would have

1463
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 1: been dead right away. Yeah, it didn't happen. So we

1464
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:53,080
Speaker 1: spent ten years doing we do best, and I'm down

1465
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:57,560
Speaker 1: and killing him. Um well, I agree, I agree. I

1466
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:02,680
Speaker 1: I enjoy all the books of the of the I

1467
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:07,679
Speaker 1: would say military action thriller, you know, great, very entertaining

1468
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 1: and engaging books. If I started writing again, I went

1469
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:14,680
Speaker 1: back and listened to and read all John mccarre al,

1470
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:18,840
Speaker 1: Frederick Forsyth, Daniel Silva. Um even now that and that

1471
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 1: Jason Matthews a new stuff. Books that are spy books,

1472
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 1: espionage books, but don't depend upon action to drive military

1473
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:32,520
Speaker 1: or combat action to drive the story and don't necessarily

1474
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 1: have the I would say superhero person who uh is

1475
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:42,000
Speaker 1: sort of the main focused They all have superhero lead people.

1476
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: Gabriel Alan is Daniel Silva, but he's not He is

1477
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:48,280
Speaker 1: what he was and now he is. You know, he's

1478
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 1: an espionage guy. He runs intelligence organizations, so it's not

1479
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: as if there's a shoot him up every every day

1480
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:58,600
Speaker 1: on the street. So I love those books j T

1481
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 1: And writes the JP Patton, you know, any rights sort

1482
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: of a little bit more of a psychological political military thrill,

1483
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: which is even different it self. So but I always

1484
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:11,639
Speaker 1: I want to believe it's still a space for I'm

1485
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 1: not gonna say literary and espionage fiction, but stuff that

1486
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily depend upon a singular superhero type of former

1487
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 1: military guy who are all great um doing the only

1488
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:27,519
Speaker 1: the things, only impossible, things that only they can save.

1489
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: My books, I try to have people intersecting in places

1490
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 1: that they never saw coming. And you know, if you're

1491
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:36,720
Speaker 1: a corporate walk and suddenly one day you've got to

1492
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:42,440
Speaker 1: deal with corporate espionage and bad alegarchs and bad leadership

1493
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 1: and you know, illegal things, what do you do? And

1494
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 1: I's and you're dealing with global sudly one day you're

1495
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:51,920
Speaker 1: worrying about feeding your kids fishing sticks. The next day

1496
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 1: you're in the middle of the world of global espionage.

1497
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 1: And I try to bang those two things kind ofgether

1498
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 1: sort of kind of did it in in Secret Wars

1499
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 1: and definitely doing in spy devils will do the same

1500
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:04,240
Speaker 1: thing in the book he was haven't quite named yet.

1501
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:07,400
Speaker 1: That's right, that's my gig. And it's it's hard because

1502
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 1: no one like you say, no one, You've got to be,

1503
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, really really good. I wouldn't say I'm really

1504
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 1: so I'm say any about me. But there's the market

1505
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 1: for those types of military slash espionage spy book spykeeper

1506
01:24:21,360 --> 01:24:24,759
Speaker 1: books is much smaller than the really good filler market.

1507
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:28,559
Speaker 1: You know that it is. In science fiction, it's been done,

1508
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:31,679
Speaker 1: um that they there's like like a ghost in the shell.

1509
01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:34,800
Speaker 1: It deals with this unit called Section nine, and they

1510
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,640
Speaker 1: do they are superheroes doing counter terrorism and stuff like that.

1511
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:41,680
Speaker 1: But it also is the first that I've seen that

1512
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 1: really the plotlines combine the disinformation, cyber warfare, counter terrorism, um,

1513
01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:52,799
Speaker 1: all a political warfare, all those things kind of combined

1514
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 1: into one. But that's a Japanese comic book that was

1515
01:24:55,400 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 1: later turned into a film, and I've I've never really

1516
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 1: seen and um in the United States, I've never really

1517
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,400
Speaker 1: seen it done well. So maybe you're maybe you're going

1518
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 1: to be the one who accomplishes that. Now I don't.

1519
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 1: I don't because because there's one thing, and I say this,

1520
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 1: but it's all about money. If it's not a commercial

1521
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: book which is not going to sell a lot, and

1522
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: the agents aren't gonna spend their time, spend their time,

1523
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:18,639
Speaker 1: and why why spend their time and take a risk

1524
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:24,280
Speaker 1: on something which is maybe less proven than young adult

1525
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 1: fantasy books or now with the Game of Thrones or

1526
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:30,639
Speaker 1: I mean, if you go through the agencies what they're publishing,

1527
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:34,479
Speaker 1: you see what's hot and this is not. You know,

1528
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: am I am I trying to start to maybe fill

1529
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 1: a hole? Maybe maybe I am. Maybe some of us

1530
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: will will start getting into more literary stuff. I don't,

1531
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 1: but it comes down with whether it can sell or not.

1532
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:48,960
Speaker 1: And this and it all goes back to our very

1533
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:53,040
Speaker 1: first conversation about culture, what people read and accept People

1534
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:56,720
Speaker 1: quite rightly and should enjoy a variety of books and

1535
01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:59,479
Speaker 1: the writer of books they're liking. In the sort of

1536
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 1: Miller thrillers, agency spykeeper, you know, twenty four Hours, Jack Ryan,

1537
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:09,719
Speaker 1: stuff is much more action oriented because action is visual

1538
01:26:09,800 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 1: and exciting. But John LEYE. Curry didn't have any of that,

1539
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 1: and he wrote two or three or four the best

1540
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,800
Speaker 1: spy books ever they have. All the movies are were

1541
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 1: mini series. Well, how people how many people die in

1542
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:25,000
Speaker 1: Tinker tailor Soldier Spy. Those books were a product of

1543
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:28,920
Speaker 1: their time in the Cold War, and today I think

1544
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:34,000
Speaker 1: the audience they understand Navy seals, fast rope onto a compound,

1545
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 1: blow down the front door, kill the terrorist inside. Like

1546
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 1: everyone can wrap their mind around that. But you get

1547
01:26:39,479 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: a Joe Goldberg here talking about like, Okay, here's what

1548
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:45,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna do. We're gonna make this uh you know,

1549
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: propaganda video tape with some actors in Hollywood, and then

1550
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna feed it into this foreign country and it's

1551
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:57,639
Speaker 1: going to influence the deputy uh ministry. Yeah. Like people

1552
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:00,559
Speaker 1: have a hard time wrap in their mind around that. Yep.

1553
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,640
Speaker 1: And I absolutely agree and I and it's uh no,

1554
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 1: no sour grapes are winding on my part. I write

1555
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:10,800
Speaker 1: the story that I write, should write what they want

1556
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,639
Speaker 1: to write. And there's a whole new world of self

1557
01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:15,600
Speaker 1: publishing out there if it comes down to that. The

1558
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:17,960
Speaker 1: literary market needs to figure that out. They're trying, and

1559
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:20,240
Speaker 1: you see what they're trying. I wanted to try the

1560
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: Aiden's world. And but you're right, the the the population

1561
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 1: and culture can wrap the heads around Action TV Studios, Netflix,

1562
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:34,720
Speaker 1: with the new Golden Age of television, you know, they

1563
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:37,360
Speaker 1: they have there's a chance there for more of a variety,

1564
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: but it's going to have to have check off some buttons.

1565
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:44,680
Speaker 1: And although I will say, and this is when I

1566
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:48,679
Speaker 1: tried to push Secret Wars in, I said, listen, guys,

1567
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 1: Argo is winning Academy Awards, alright, the Americans is one

1568
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 1: of the top television programs on TV. And guess what,

1569
01:27:56,760 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 1: none of that stuff is happening by the way. They're

1570
01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 1: set in the eighties, all right, So there is a

1571
01:28:01,040 --> 01:28:06,880
Speaker 1: market for historical fiction and things or things that don't

1572
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 1: necessarily have to have something blow up before the commercial break.

1573
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 1: And so that was that's why I was trying to

1574
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: pinning my hopes on that there was examples of this

1575
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:18,360
Speaker 1: out there. Maybe they were only examples because they were

1576
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 1: the past. They were historical, and absolutely trends change. That's

1577
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 1: the past nowadays currently it's not that. And the whine

1578
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,080
Speaker 1: about it, I think I think you got it. I

1579
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 1: think you're right. There is some market for it. It's

1580
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:33,240
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of getting you know, producers and

1581
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 1: publishers to be on board to take the risk. Yeah,

1582
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 1: that's on me. And and maybe there's the one person

1583
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 1: out there who want who wants to do it. But

1584
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:46,560
Speaker 1: once again, there's a lot of people such like the

1585
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 1: stuff who who've come back from dangerous interesting uh, every

1586
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:55,840
Speaker 1: attitude you can think of that explains having put your

1587
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:57,559
Speaker 1: life on the line for your country, who are writing

1588
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:00,919
Speaker 1: great materials that are very attained. The people who google,

1589
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: who can leave their living room and go sit in

1590
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:08,280
Speaker 1: a vehicle in some dents somewhere shooting some sort of weapon.

1591
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 1: And that's the escapism that that this type of stuff provides,

1592
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,759
Speaker 1: whether it's in a book, the book, or you know, visually.

1593
01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:17,760
Speaker 1: So I get that at that, and and and the

1594
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:20,799
Speaker 1: people who are doing that are doing a a superb

1595
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 1: job of it. They're covering a wide spectrum of people's

1596
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:26,759
Speaker 1: interests across American culture on what they're interested in reading about,

1597
01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:28,640
Speaker 1: on these topics that they never get a chance to

1598
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: experience up through television newspapers. Well, what I'm saying speaking

1599
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:35,240
Speaker 1: of which Joe, I mean, we'll have to have you

1600
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:38,560
Speaker 1: back on again sometime if you're interested, because you do

1601
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:41,840
Speaker 1: have a particular expertise on a subject that is really

1602
01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:44,080
Speaker 1: hot in the headlines the last couple of years, which

1603
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 1: is influence propaganda information. UM, I feel like you. I

1604
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:51,439
Speaker 1: feel like you have a lot more that you can

1605
01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 1: enlighten us about on these topics. Well, I have a

1606
01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:57,439
Speaker 1: model and a model I've used since my first day

1607
01:29:57,479 --> 01:29:59,280
Speaker 1: and see in the agency, which is anything to do

1608
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:01,880
Speaker 1: to help? Let mean and I always mean that. Thank you.

1609
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:03,200
Speaker 1: If there's something I can do, you want me to

1610
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 1: come back. Anybody he's listening, what's giving me a caller

1611
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,080
Speaker 1: sam full of it? Or what's to discuss something I'm

1612
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 1: all in I can help. That's my job as a human.

1613
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Joe. I really appreciate that and appreciate you

1614
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,880
Speaker 1: taking the time to talk to us today. Um, is

1615
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 1: there anything before we go? Is there anything else that

1616
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 1: we really should have brought up that we didn't? We

1617
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:23,519
Speaker 1: talked about a lot. I'm I'm not trying to trying

1618
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:25,320
Speaker 1: to trying to take notes here saying what am I

1619
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:28,200
Speaker 1: being repetitive about? But you ask some good questions, and

1620
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: I mean, there's always the current events issues which no

1621
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:35,760
Speaker 1: one has all the background on. There's an election coming

1622
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 1: on which is gonna be interesting to think. How about

1623
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: how the media and news flows and seeing how we're

1624
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:42,719
Speaker 1: paying attention to any outside influences, So all those topics

1625
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: are are fair game at some point down the room. Yeah,

1626
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:46,840
Speaker 1: maybe that's a good thing to bring up as we

1627
01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:49,559
Speaker 1: go into the election, as we get a little deeper

1628
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:51,600
Speaker 1: into it. Have you back on to talk about it

1629
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 1: from an information aspect, whatever I can do. The hell awesome.

1630
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 1: Thank you, Joe, Thank you all right, man, have a

1631
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 1: good rest of your week and a good weekend. Thank

1632
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:06,160
Speaker 1: you very much. All right, take care. That was Joe

1633
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:12,320
Speaker 1: Goldberg a very interesting conversation that um propaganda. He got

1634
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:17,600
Speaker 1: a little upset about the word propaganda. Um he no,

1635
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 1: he got he didn't want to use the word disinformation.

1636
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:24,200
Speaker 1: He said, you know, it wasn't necessarily a lie, right right, right,

1637
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:29,120
Speaker 1: So it's that was fascinating at the end. It was

1638
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 1: the for me to sit back and like you put

1639
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:36,799
Speaker 1: it perfectly, it's like, because you spoke, you weren't speaking

1640
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 1: to me. But I'm one of those idiots that I

1641
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 1: can resonate more with, you know, repelling down. Everyone can.

1642
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 1: In the military itself thinks like that, Like we like

1643
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:52,680
Speaker 1: counter terrorism as opposed to say unconventional warfare fit or

1644
01:31:52,960 --> 01:31:55,240
Speaker 1: some of the other missions we have, because when you

1645
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 1: do those direct action missions, like you go into the room,

1646
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:00,719
Speaker 1: you shoot a target, and you can see a little

1647
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 1: like you see the results. Yeah, right, right, it's easy

1648
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,680
Speaker 1: for us to understand, and it's easy to measure to

1649
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 1: quantify the results. But to to Joe's point, he was saying,

1650
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 1: how like Netflix in the Golden Age, I think you know, um,

1651
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:17,240
Speaker 1: what was the name of the one book, the Secret

1652
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:22,600
Speaker 1: Wars an espionage an espionage story. I think if Netflix

1653
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:25,759
Speaker 1: gives it the or any form of you know, Amazon,

1654
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 1: however you stream your shows, gives it the opportunity to

1655
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:33,000
Speaker 1: you can plant a seed in like season one, let's say,

1656
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:35,800
Speaker 1: and you can watch throughout the course of the show,

1657
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 1: like even if it's only you know, four or five seasons.

1658
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 1: But like you know that like Joe, you know, Joe

1659
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 1: goes and pitches and he's like, here's the end result

1660
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 1: whatever it is, like, but the story to get from

1661
01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 1: point A to point B instead of just I feel

1662
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 1: like these you know, these action stories are straight line.

1663
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:58,120
Speaker 1: You know, obviously the shortest distance boom we go. You know,

1664
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 1: something happened to us, We're going to retaliate eight. That's

1665
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:04,560
Speaker 1: the end result where you get an espionage story and

1666
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 1: counterintelligence and stuff like that where it's you don't like

1667
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:13,559
Speaker 1: there's so many interwoven stories where you can get lost

1668
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:17,640
Speaker 1: per se, but like there's so much going on, and

1669
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:20,519
Speaker 1: like he mentioned, the Americans and the Americans was an

1670
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 1: incredible TV show because there was that tension of like,

1671
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, they're living I mean, are you familiar, Like

1672
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:31,720
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, um, but like they're living with

1673
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:37,120
Speaker 1: you know, they're Russians living in America like suburbia, and

1674
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 1: they're working for the American government, and there's just like

1675
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 1: the whole time, there's this tension of like when are

1676
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:44,200
Speaker 1: they gonna get caught? Like you know, you know what

1677
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 1: the end results gonna be, and it's like when's the

1678
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 1: shoe gonna drop in? It's just you can you can

1679
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: play with that so much. And I think that like, obviously, I'm,

1680
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:53,599
Speaker 1: like I said at the beginning, I'm one of these

1681
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:56,040
Speaker 1: idiots that are just like, you know, kick the door down,

1682
01:33:56,080 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: shoot the bad guy, we overcome. But I love and

1683
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 1: obviously Joe is passionate about it where I mean he

1684
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:07,519
Speaker 1: worked in the field forever, but like just the what

1685
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:09,960
Speaker 1: you can do with that story wise, whether it be

1686
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:13,400
Speaker 1: books or movies or whatever. They're they're really it's an

1687
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:16,600
Speaker 1: untapped market. And you said, like all it takes is

1688
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:20,000
Speaker 1: one person to to buy in and to take a

1689
01:34:20,120 --> 01:34:21,760
Speaker 1: risk on it, and I don't. I don't think it's

1690
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 1: a risk, like obviously taking a risk, but like the

1691
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:26,200
Speaker 1: word risk is in quotes because like, I don't think

1692
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 1: it's a risk. I think there there is a demographic

1693
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 1: for it. But you know, he was he was a

1694
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:33,439
Speaker 1: good It's it's it's young adults. Now it's game of

1695
01:34:33,479 --> 01:34:36,000
Speaker 1: thrown stuff. And it's like, I think these things are cyclical,

1696
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:40,559
Speaker 1: like you can find whatever one person knocks down the door,

1697
01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:42,519
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, espionage is the new

1698
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:45,719
Speaker 1: It's it's a tough market, and part of the problem

1699
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:47,960
Speaker 1: is like the publishers want they want to go with

1700
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:51,080
Speaker 1: the safest bet principle, but at the same time it's

1701
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 1: really weird. It's like I've had other people who write

1702
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:57,400
Speaker 1: novels and have been published tell me, like it's weird

1703
01:34:57,439 --> 01:34:59,160
Speaker 1: that they hired me to write this book, and but

1704
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 1: then they do like no publicity for it, like they

1705
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 1: it's like and what the publishers are doing is they're

1706
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:08,400
Speaker 1: like literally just like throwing stuff up against the wall

1707
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 1: to see what'll sticky, and so there's like not really

1708
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:16,760
Speaker 1: any like thought process or strategy involved, and it sometimes yeah,

1709
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 1: like hopefully we hit a home run with this thing,

1710
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:20,360
Speaker 1: but if not, like you know, we well, like if

1711
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,160
Speaker 1: it happens, it happens. You know, it's like like maybe

1712
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 1: this becomes like the next Tom Clancy, but whatever if

1713
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't. What it's like that it's just kind of weird.

1714
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:30,240
Speaker 1: Both as a writer and as as a publisher, I

1715
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: would think it's just kind of strange to see the

1716
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:33,680
Speaker 1: way they do that because like as a publisher, like

1717
01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:36,720
Speaker 1: you get stuff come across your desk like like this

1718
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: is interesting, but this isn't. Like how do you like,

1719
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:40,599
Speaker 1: if you're gonna pay for it, don't you like want

1720
01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 1: it to be something that you're excited about that you

1721
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 1: think readers will be excited about that you're gonna like

1722
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:48,559
Speaker 1: put some weight behind. Um. So yeah, I have friends

1723
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 1: who are novelists that are pretty frustrated with that. But

1724
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:52,840
Speaker 1: I mean that was on the back end of the

1725
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:57,640
Speaker 1: conversation with Joe. Joe was I told you I just

1726
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 1: from email, I could tell that I was going to

1727
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,960
Speaker 1: enjoy He was very well spoken. Um, obviously he's a

1728
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:07,760
Speaker 1: professor um, but it's just it's it's something that a

1729
01:36:07,840 --> 01:36:10,280
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know obviously because the CIA is

1730
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:13,680
Speaker 1: you know, covert, but it's it's nice to get a

1731
01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:16,519
Speaker 1: peek behind the curtain, especially how he was on the

1732
01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:18,679
Speaker 1: forefront of like i mean, you you talked about early

1733
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 1: on he was a meme lord before they before they

1734
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:26,799
Speaker 1: existed on VHS tap a VHS lord. Yeah, that's funny.

1735
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:31,280
Speaker 1: I enjoyed that. But yeah, and the fact that he's

1736
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 1: teaching social media now, it was it's nice to see

1737
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:36,120
Speaker 1: that he's you know, cared enough about it throughout the

1738
01:36:36,240 --> 01:36:40,280
Speaker 1: years where you know, a lot of I'm sure a

1739
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:41,840
Speaker 1: lot of people can get burned out, like you know,

1740
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:46,719
Speaker 1: you've done this since the eighties and at a certain

1741
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:48,800
Speaker 1: point you're like, you know, enough is enough. But no,

1742
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:52,439
Speaker 1: he's enjoyed enough to turn it into into another profession

1743
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:55,320
Speaker 1: where you know, he's teaching social media classes at IOWA

1744
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 1: and it's like okay, and and he's who better like this,

1745
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:02,320
Speaker 1: This guy lived it. He was doing it like he

1746
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 1: should be the guy that's on television talking about this stuff. Yeah,

1747
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm sure he could if he wanted to.

1748
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:10,759
Speaker 1: And like he said anything anything to help. So anyone

1749
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 1: in television wants to have Joe on to talk about

1750
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:14,920
Speaker 1: that stuff, reach out to him. He'll be he'll be

1751
01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:17,040
Speaker 1: happy to I'm speaking on behalf of him. At this point,

1752
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:20,559
Speaker 1: I feel like I can so. Um. There was um

1753
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:23,599
Speaker 1: one thing we didn't bring up in the intro. Uh.

1754
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:27,000
Speaker 1: We get packages all the time, books coming up. Stephen

1755
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 1: sent us his book Steven Elliott. He was on what

1756
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:34,639
Speaker 1: uh two episodes ago with the Pat Tillman story War Story.

1757
01:37:34,960 --> 01:37:36,759
Speaker 1: So we want to thank Stephen for sending us copies

1758
01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 1: of the book. Obviously we're gonna read them. Um, but

1759
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:41,680
Speaker 1: you also got a package that you wanted to talk about. Yeah,

1760
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: this is cool. I got this uh package from todd

1761
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:47,559
Speaker 1: A Pulski, who's been on the show a couple of times,

1762
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 1: and he sent me this cool necklace with the Zen

1763
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:54,600
Speaker 1: Commando emblem that he had made up. It looks like

1764
01:37:54,800 --> 01:38:00,439
Speaker 1: a meditating Spartan. Um. Uh he's I mean this really

1765
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:02,160
Speaker 1: nice letter. I'm gonna have to get back to him,

1766
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:06,760
Speaker 1: but he said, uh, he's he attributed a lot of

1767
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 1: the attention that his Zen Commando program down in Costa

1768
01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:14,599
Speaker 1: Rica has gotten to this podcast. And uh, he said,

1769
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:18,320
Speaker 1: so the necklace he gave me with this little emblement it,

1770
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:20,799
Speaker 1: he said. The circle represents the circle of life, nature's

1771
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:23,160
Speaker 1: way of taking and giving back to the earth. It

1772
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:26,960
Speaker 1: symbolizes the universe being sacred and divine. The warriors sitting

1773
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:30,120
Speaker 1: in a lotus position represents peace, harmony, and understanding. The

1774
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:33,680
Speaker 1: helmet the warrior where signifies security, strength and protection. It's

1775
01:38:33,720 --> 01:38:36,120
Speaker 1: made from a coconut shell, crafted by the local Costa

1776
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,680
Speaker 1: Ricans that lived near Camp zen Commando. Um, so that's

1777
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:41,920
Speaker 1: really cool. I gotta go down there someday. I haven't

1778
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:46,479
Speaker 1: been to Costa Rica since two thousand four. I've got

1779
01:38:46,520 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 1: two thousand four, so it's been a long time. I'm

1780
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 1: sure it's kind of different down there now, I would imagine.

1781
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 1: But he runs He runs that place for like veterans

1782
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 1: to go down there and like decompress and you do

1783
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: pt and meditate and eat right and all that good stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

1784
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:05,120
Speaker 1: Todd's a really good guy. Um, next time he's up

1785
01:39:05,160 --> 01:39:06,800
Speaker 1: here and we'll have to have him on again. I

1786
01:39:06,880 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 1: feel like, once you're in Costa Rica and you sit

1787
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 1: up camp there, I don't think he has family like

1788
01:39:11,360 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 1: in Connecticut. I think. So he's up this way once

1789
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:16,960
Speaker 1: in a while. All right, then we'll have we'll have obviously,

1790
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:19,040
Speaker 1: todd if you're listening, come back on some time whenever

1791
01:39:19,040 --> 01:39:23,720
Speaker 1: you're in Connecticut swinging by here. Um what else? Oh?

1792
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:27,519
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course. So yesterday was Alice's last day

1793
01:39:27,560 --> 01:39:29,479
Speaker 1: of school, so I took her to the toy store.

1794
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:31,479
Speaker 1: See if you wanted to get a new toy since

1795
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:34,040
Speaker 1: you did a good job. And uh, I thought we

1796
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:36,080
Speaker 1: were going to get a nice wholesome toy. You want

1797
01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:37,680
Speaker 1: to you want? Do you want to tell them what

1798
01:39:37,760 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 1: you actually got? Um? I don't know. It's a call

1799
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:43,720
Speaker 1: the bid dirty calls it a poopsie b it's not

1800
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:47,559
Speaker 1: called Yeah, no it is that, I swear to God.

1801
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:49,840
Speaker 1: It's on the side of the toy the can. No,

1802
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:52,600
Speaker 1: it says. Um, I didn't know what it says. I

1803
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:57,599
Speaker 1: don't remember. No, it does it pop? No, it's POOPSI anyways,

1804
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 1: and I don't remember. It has the dragon A guy

1805
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:07,160
Speaker 1: drag it and it's green with a horn on it.

1806
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:10,400
Speaker 1: It looks like a unicorn dragon if I it has

1807
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:15,439
Speaker 1: big eyelashes. Yeah, what does it do? Um? You? Um?

1808
01:40:15,560 --> 01:40:19,599
Speaker 1: We get of water and the little bottle and then

1809
01:40:19,680 --> 01:40:23,280
Speaker 1: you squeeze it in the mouth and then you gotta

1810
01:40:23,320 --> 01:40:26,799
Speaker 1: shake it for a minute, and then it's spits, vomits,

1811
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:31,400
Speaker 1: were poop, and then and then you put some sparkles

1812
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:34,640
Speaker 1: and stuff in it, and then you have to like

1813
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: mix it with the spoon and then um, and then

1814
01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 1: it turns into slim and then you put it in

1815
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:45,280
Speaker 1: a little bag. Yeah. So this toylet literally vomits pink

1816
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:48,639
Speaker 1: goo up over itself, and then it comes with these

1817
01:40:48,680 --> 01:40:51,439
Speaker 1: little packets of glitter that you open up and you

1818
01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 1: mix into the vomit and like mix it up into

1819
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:57,720
Speaker 1: like a vomit slime with glitter in it, and then

1820
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 1: you store it inside a plastic bag and you can play.

1821
01:41:01,439 --> 01:41:03,600
Speaker 1: You can play with it. That's literally what this toy is.

1822
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 1: It's so sticky, Yeah, wonderful, and Daddy's so happy. I

1823
01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:09,640
Speaker 1: can't I can't wait to I'm cleaning it out of

1824
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:12,680
Speaker 1: our couch. Mr and Mrs Poopsie, whoever invented this, are

1825
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:14,760
Speaker 1: laughing all the way to the bank. Oh yes, people

1826
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,040
Speaker 1: are they are. Let's just make a toy that you know,

1827
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:19,840
Speaker 1: vomits and poops. Kids will clean it, will throw glitter

1828
01:41:19,960 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 1: on it, and will be millionaires. Take I take Alice

1829
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:24,760
Speaker 1: to this toy store. It's like, hey, you want to

1830
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:27,960
Speaker 1: get some Calico Critters, Carte Blanche pick, you want to

1831
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:30,760
Speaker 1: get some you want to get the Lego Ghostbusters car? Like,

1832
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:32,680
Speaker 1: what what do you want now? I want a poopsie

1833
01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:37,840
Speaker 1: because I saw in a cookie and I wanted it. Yeah,

1834
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:44,280
Speaker 1: speaking of propaganda, we were talking, we're talking about YouTube influence.

1835
01:41:44,280 --> 01:41:49,479
Speaker 1: There's cookie swirlse is like some sort of terrorist. Don't

1836
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:52,280
Speaker 1: let the terrorists win, by bye Murphy's law. Yeah, don't

1837
01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:57,760
Speaker 1: you love America? Don't support cookie? See what's subscribe to

1838
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:03,160
Speaker 1: cookie soil See you're fired, get off on my radio show,

1839
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:08,680
Speaker 1: Away with you. If she poops he's on the mic,

1840
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 1: you're You're in a world of trouble. Was it on

1841
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:15,120
Speaker 1: a once a day thing? I don't know. It's one

1842
01:42:15,160 --> 01:42:20,600
Speaker 1: and done. Thank god for that that one off the

1843
01:42:20,640 --> 01:42:25,960
Speaker 1: reals quick. Oh yeah, So next episode one of our

1844
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 1: writer's job, A fave coming, last name LaFave just said

1845
01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:33,360
Speaker 1: he could be a fan la fave pardon the pud

1846
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:39,599
Speaker 1: like McK lovin. It's like a really sexy hamburger. Joe,

1847
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:43,000
Speaker 1: you're my la fave. Uh, looking forward to having Joe

1848
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:45,680
Speaker 1: on and then uh, and then my I believe my

1849
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 1: old buddy is gonna be coming on the show. I'm

1850
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:53,200
Speaker 1: pretty sure he's gonna make it in. I'll reconfirm with him. But, um,

1851
01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:57,600
Speaker 1: he's another guy who's deeply involved, A veteran I know,

1852
01:42:57,760 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 1: I've known for a long time. He's deeply involved and um,

1853
01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:06,519
Speaker 1: use of psychedelics to treat PTSD and all that bad stuff. Um.

1854
01:43:07,400 --> 01:43:10,000
Speaker 1: So he hit me up the other day and said

1855
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:11,800
Speaker 1: he'd love to come on the show and talk about it.

1856
01:43:11,920 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 1: After hearing Jeff talk about Jeff Nichols. Yeah yeah, and

1857
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:17,439
Speaker 1: so he's like this guy I know is involved in

1858
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:19,559
Speaker 1: like trying to get involved in like the policy side

1859
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:23,000
Speaker 1: and influence legislation and stuff. Yeah, it's crazy because, uh,

1860
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:25,320
Speaker 1: you know, I tell my friends like you're like, oh,

1861
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:28,840
Speaker 1: who'd you have on like, and I was talking about

1862
01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:30,760
Speaker 1: Jeff and how they were like he was like went

1863
01:43:30,800 --> 01:43:33,160
Speaker 1: down to Mexico and use psychedelics to to help with

1864
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:36,360
Speaker 1: this PTSD And everybody was like wait what. I was like, Yeah,

1865
01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:40,360
Speaker 1: they just you know, it was like doctors gave him,

1866
01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, d MT and sell cybin mushrooms and they

1867
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:46,840
Speaker 1: were like okay, Uh, I definitely need to learn more

1868
01:43:46,880 --> 01:43:50,479
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, it's because that's that's fascinating. The fact that,

1869
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:53,599
Speaker 1: I mean we talked about it a bunch, but like, uh,

1870
01:43:54,360 --> 01:43:57,760
Speaker 1: taking well, what did your buddy call him? Uh? Plant

1871
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:01,759
Speaker 1: plant medicine, plant medicine, like first off name uh. Secondly,

1872
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 1: the fact that if there are alternatives like that that

1873
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:11,120
Speaker 1: are helping, that's incredible. Mushrooms from the earth that well,

1874
01:44:11,240 --> 01:44:15,600
Speaker 1: he was telling me, he's like this thing like using psychedelics,

1875
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 1: Like it's difficult to monetize, but you have to be

1876
01:44:17,840 --> 01:44:20,559
Speaker 1: careful talking to policy makers about it because like they

1877
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:22,680
Speaker 1: want to make money off it. Of course they want

1878
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 1: tax revenue. Um. And he was saying this like if

1879
01:44:27,360 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 1: this takes off, like it's not only is it going

1880
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:32,599
Speaker 1: to wipe out the pharmaceutical industry, but it's also gonna

1881
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:34,880
Speaker 1: like like the Betty Ford clinics and all that, although

1882
01:44:34,960 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 1: like rehab, like all that's gone too now. I mean,

1883
01:44:38,439 --> 01:44:44,320
Speaker 1: this is a little conspiracy theorists, but like they is

1884
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 1: it really gonna wipe him out? Like I feel like

1885
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:49,760
Speaker 1: big government, you know, has has a hand, Like they've

1886
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:51,640
Speaker 1: got to be aware that this is a capability, so

1887
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:54,200
Speaker 1: maybe they like they can try you know what I mean, Um,

1888
01:44:55,160 --> 01:44:57,240
Speaker 1: what am I thinking of? Like you know how there's

1889
01:44:57,320 --> 01:44:59,280
Speaker 1: rumors that they're like that there's a cure for AIDS

1890
01:44:59,280 --> 01:45:01,160
Speaker 1: and they just won't really because well, I mean, in

1891
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:06,880
Speaker 1: the past, it's true that DuPont Chemicals was behind getting uh,

1892
01:45:07,400 --> 01:45:11,559
Speaker 1: marijuana made illegal. They funded that movie Reefer Madness because

1893
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:14,719
Speaker 1: they they're they're synthetic products could not compete with hemp.

1894
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:17,600
Speaker 1: There you go, So that was the whole thing, Like

1895
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 1: they propagandized the public, scared the hell out of everyone

1896
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:27,960
Speaker 1: about a reef he'll die from smoking reefer um. But yeah,

1897
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean it'll be interesting to hear because the same thing.

1898
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:36,320
Speaker 1: You know what else too um um. Absinthe was also

1899
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:39,280
Speaker 1: made illegal for the same reason because the bourbon industry

1900
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:42,640
Speaker 1: couldn't compete with absinthe. At the time, any alcohol, it

1901
01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:45,720
Speaker 1: was very absence was very popular like around the turn

1902
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 1: of the century, I think, And so yeah, it was

1903
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:50,640
Speaker 1: it was like the bourbon companies and whiskey company, we

1904
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:54,320
Speaker 1: gotta get ahead of this ad absinthe made illegal. Yeah yeah, well,

1905
01:45:55,200 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: uh looking forward to heaven, Joseph and and then hopefully

1906
01:45:59,479 --> 01:46:02,439
Speaker 1: your buddy content because I this stuff fascinates me, Like

1907
01:46:02,479 --> 01:46:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm not a I'm not a drug user by any mean,

1908
01:46:05,040 --> 01:46:09,080
Speaker 1: but like too to hear how that this helps from it,

1909
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:11,360
Speaker 1: I mean to go back to like the reefer revolution,

1910
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 1: how you know, marijuana had such this the stigma of like,

1911
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, lazy pothead like eat cheetos and all this,

1912
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:22,080
Speaker 1: and now it's like it's helping, Like athletes are pushing

1913
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:24,599
Speaker 1: for it for you know, to relieve like joint pains

1914
01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:28,000
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And it's like, oh maybe maybe,

1915
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean, drugs are still bad, don't get me wrong,

1916
01:46:30,240 --> 01:46:32,160
Speaker 1: but like, well maybe we're getting a little bit more

1917
01:46:32,280 --> 01:46:35,160
Speaker 1: enlightened about you know, how we're going to use them. Um,

1918
01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:39,640
Speaker 1: because I mean pharmaceutical drugs are not great for you either, right,

1919
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:43,640
Speaker 1: Like you know, so in some cases, I mean, it's

1920
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:48,639
Speaker 1: smoking marijuana better for you than using opioids. It seems

1921
01:46:48,680 --> 01:46:52,479
Speaker 1: like it probably, I mean, it's not gonna kill you.

1922
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:54,720
Speaker 1: Like who what was it? I read somewhere that like

1923
01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:57,240
Speaker 1: from to O D and marijuana you have to like

1924
01:46:57,320 --> 01:47:03,760
Speaker 1: smoke your weight in marijuana basically. Well that's so it's like, yeah,

1925
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 1: it's not gonna Happen's a lot of marijuana. Um. That

1926
01:47:08,680 --> 01:47:10,760
Speaker 1: wraps it up. I feel like, right, that's it. Man.

1927
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:16,840
Speaker 1: We'll be back on Tuesday. Tuesday with Joseph. House is hungry,

1928
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:19,200
Speaker 1: so we gotta gotta you gotta feed you gotta feed

1929
01:47:19,240 --> 01:47:22,360
Speaker 1: her otherwise she pops all over the We don't we

1930
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:25,120
Speaker 1: don't want to deal with that um Before we go.

1931
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 1: I want to let you guys know, be sure to

1932
01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 1: check out Create Club. It's a club four men by

1933
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1934
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1935
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Speaker 1: right now we're running an extremely limited promotion of off

1936
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Speaker 1: for all softwarep radio listeners. This is the biggest discount

1937
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Speaker 1: we've ever made available and we don't know how long

1938
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Speaker 1: this promotion will last, so get on it right now.

1939
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Speaker 1: That's Create Club dot us. The coupon code is soft

1940
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Speaker 1: repf year subscription for all crates. Sign up today. Also,

1941
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Speaker 1: as a reminder to you the listener, now was the

1942
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:00,840
Speaker 1: time to sign up for the spec Ops Channel, our

1943
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:04,559
Speaker 1: channel that offers the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews

1944
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:08,160
Speaker 1: covering the most exciting military content today. The Specops channel

1945
01:48:08,200 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 1: premier show, Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as

1946
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 1: they participate in the most advanced training in the country,

1947
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Speaker 1: everything from shooting Schools, Defensive Driving, Jungle and Winter Warfare,

1948
01:48:19,240 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 1: climbing and much more. Again, you can watch this content

1949
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:24,880
Speaker 1: by subscribing to the spec Ops channel at spec ops

1950
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:27,560
Speaker 1: channel dot com and take advantage of a membership for

1951
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Speaker 1: only four month. That's spec ops channel dot com. Sign

1952
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Speaker 1: up today. Last, if you're not already signed up at

1953
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Speaker 1: the News Rep, you've gotta get on board. There's expert

1954
01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:41,080
Speaker 1: reporting and actionable intelligence from your favorite writers. You've heard

1955
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Speaker 1: guys like Jack Murphy, their stav Ros Uh, plenty of

1956
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,479
Speaker 1: other guest writers pop in time to time. When you

1957
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:49,599
Speaker 1: sign up for the News Rep, you get unlimited access

1958
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1959
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Speaker 1: to join the war room community, you get invitations to

1960
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Speaker 1: our exclusive events, and it's all add free for members.

1961
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:01,920
Speaker 1: There's a trial off for going up right now where

1962
01:49:01,920 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 1: you can get four weeks for only sign up at

1963
01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:09,519
Speaker 1: the News Rep dot com. That's the News Rep dot com.

1964
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:12,000
Speaker 1: By the way, if you're not aware, we have our

1965
01:49:12,040 --> 01:49:14,960
Speaker 1: own SOFTWAREP radio app that you can download for free

1966
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:18,200
Speaker 1: on iPhone or Android, and our homepage is softwap radio

1967
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:21,200
Speaker 1: dot com, where you can see our full archive of shows.

1968
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:24,120
Speaker 1: As always, keep up with us on social Media at

1969
01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:30,800
Speaker 1: SOFTWAREP Radio as well. That concludes episode four. We want

1970
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:36,000
Speaker 1: to thank Joe for coming on. Great conversation. Looking forward

1971
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:40,759
Speaker 1: to having another Joe on Tuesday, so back to back Joe's.

1972
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:43,880
Speaker 1: That wraps it up. Thank you guys for listening. Be

1973
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:48,639
Speaker 1: sure to subscribe, rate, review, uh enjoy, Hope you guys,

1974
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:51,400
Speaker 1: uh I hope you guys enjoy the episode You've been

1975
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 1: listening to Self rep Radio. New episodes up every Wednesday

1976
01:49:56,120 --> 01:50:00,280
Speaker 1: and Friday. Follow this show on Instagram and Twitter at

1977
01:50:00,400 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 1: self red Radio