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Speaker 1: On the Bechde Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

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Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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Speaker 2: have individualism? The patriarchy zeffi beast start changing with the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 1: We are family. I am a Republican official. I mean

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Speaker 1: certainly not us, but certainly Gene Hackman. What an iconic.

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Speaker 3: Oh god, I'm so excited to talk about today's I've

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Speaker 3: already just started the episode by accident, but just like,

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Speaker 3: there's so many beautiful parts of this movie, and ultimately

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Speaker 3: it's like, how can we as a community help this

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Speaker 3: Republican avoid a scandal? And you're like, oh, what if

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Speaker 3: we didn't, What if we didn't Callista Lockhart would live,

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Speaker 3: She'd be fine.

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Speaker 4: Anyways, Anyways, welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 5: Welcome. Indeed, my name is Kaitlin Durante.

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Speaker 3: My name is Jamie Loftus, and this is the podcast

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Speaker 3: where we talk about all of your favorite movies from

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Speaker 3: an intersectional feminist perspective. And today we are covering a God.

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Speaker 3: I feel like this is one of this qualifies as

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Speaker 3: a movie. We have almost covered like six or seven

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Speaker 3: times at this point, and we just never had the

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Speaker 3: right guest come along until to today.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, let's bring them in. Our guest today is a

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Speaker 5: film critic and writer. It's Manuel Bettencourt.

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Speaker 6: Welcome, thank you for having me. I love talking about

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Speaker 6: this movie. So I'm very excited about today.

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Speaker 5: We're so excited to have you. I forgot we didn't

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Speaker 5: tell anyone what the Bechdel Test is?

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Speaker 1: Well, what is it?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: What is it?

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Speaker 5: Well, here's what it is. It is a media metric

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Speaker 5: created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel

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Speaker 5: Wallace Test. It is a media metric that has many

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Speaker 5: different versions. Ours is do two characters of a marginalized

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Speaker 5: gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And

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Speaker 5: is there cover about something other than a man. We

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Speaker 5: particularly like it when it's a substantial conversation and not

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Speaker 5: just throw away dialogue. And also, this is something that

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Speaker 5: we bring up now and then. Important context that often

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Speaker 5: gets left out of the conversation around the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 5: is that the comic that it appeared in Alison Bechdel's

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Speaker 5: Dikes to Watch Out For showed characters talking about whether

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Speaker 5: or not movies past this test because they were specifically

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Speaker 5: looking for women in movies talking to each other about

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Speaker 5: something other than a man, because if they weren't talking

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Speaker 5: about a man, the characters in the comic could ship

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Speaker 5: those characters together. Because there was so little lesbian representation

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Speaker 5: on screen, right, we're a representation on screen in general.

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Speaker 3: We've mentioned this on this show over the years, but

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Speaker 3: I feel like, especially like it's worth bringing up every

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Speaker 3: once in a while because Alison Bechdel was truly playing

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Speaker 3: a game of five D chess that I don't think

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Speaker 3: the general public gives her credit for. Like it's just

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Speaker 3: reduced to, you know, people of marginalized genders talking about anything.

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Speaker 4: But it's like, no, she she had a reason, she

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Speaker 4: had a motivation.

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Speaker 5: So that's all the context. Menuel, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 5: Of course, tell us about your relationship with The Bird Cage.

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Speaker 6: I feel like I don't know a world in which

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Speaker 6: The Bird Cage was not part of my life. It's

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Speaker 6: one of those nineties movies that were so played in

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Speaker 6: my house. I think it's one of those that it

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Speaker 6: was in constant rotation. I don't remember that we had

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Speaker 6: a VCR, A VHS of a Baby just played on

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Speaker 6: TV all the time, and every time I was on.

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Speaker 6: I just watch it, and it has to have been

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Speaker 6: one of the first mainstream Hollywood films that I remember

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Speaker 6: watching that was about gay men, and it was about drag,

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Speaker 6: and like they were not punchlines, like this was before

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Speaker 6: Will and Grace, Like it was a sort of a

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Speaker 6: round sort of time. It was like Robin Williams, who like,

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Speaker 6: of course I knew, and Nathan Lane, who I then

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Speaker 6: fell in love with. But it just I've always watched it.

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Speaker 7: It was so central in.

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Speaker 6: My like teenage years, and I always loved it, and

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Speaker 6: it's it was only until I sort of went to

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Speaker 6: college and you know, reading something like fun Home and

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Speaker 6: reading Bechdell and sort of reading queer theory and sort

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Speaker 6: of then going back to it and being like, oh,

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Speaker 6: this is a movie that at its time it was

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Speaker 6: both so radical and so traditional. And I think that's

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Speaker 6: where the for me has always been the crux of it,

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Speaker 6: because it is, you know, how do we help those

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Speaker 6: Republicans Cenator not have a controversy, have a scandal and

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Speaker 6: also let celebrate family, but also do it with.

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Speaker 7: The power of drag and the power of you.

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Speaker 6: Know, battling against toxic masculinity, And how do we value

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Speaker 6: femininity and gay men, and the fact that I could

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Speaker 6: do both those things at the same time has always

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Speaker 6: fascinated me. So I think about it a lot. I

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Speaker 6: laugh about it every single time. I quote it infinitely.

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Speaker 6: And also everyone's you have Robin Williams, you have Nathan Lane,

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Speaker 6: you have Christine Baranski, you have you have. I mean,

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Speaker 6: it is Hank Azaria doing a very very problematic quant character.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we'll talk about that, Hank Azaria being you know,

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Speaker 5: Hank azarias.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The thing is, I like the bit about the shoes

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Speaker 3: so much.

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Speaker 1: It's funny.

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Speaker 4: The bit about the shoes gets me every single time.

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Speaker 3: Like the shoes bit would have carried me for a

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Speaker 3: six hour like a whole Lord of the Rings marathon.

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Speaker 3: I could have watched the shoes bit. It's so funny.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Jamie, what's your history with the movie.

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Speaker 1: I've seen this movie so many times.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it is one of the more quotable

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Speaker 3: movies that exists.

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Speaker 1: I feel like.

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Speaker 3: There's people who quote this movie all the time and

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Speaker 3: don't even know that they're quoting this movie. And that

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Speaker 3: is the power of a good Elaine mayscript. And I'm

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Speaker 3: very excited to talk about her and Mike Nichols as well.

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Speaker 1: But I just I love this.

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Speaker 3: My mom this is one of her favorite movies ever.

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Speaker 1: She had it on a lot.

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Speaker 3: I remember very clearly my mom being like, Jamie, this

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Speaker 3: is the movie where the Genie and Timone are married.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, awesome, and she's like, yeah, it

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Speaker 4: is awesome.

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Speaker 3: So I think, I, yeah, I've probably been watching this

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Speaker 3: movie since I was like ten, maybe I don't even

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Speaker 3: maybe even sooner, like it's just a great movie to

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Speaker 3: have on.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know, I didn't even realize.

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Speaker 3: I think, Manuel, it's like a great way to put it,

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Speaker 3: is like this movie is both very subversive and very

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Speaker 3: like grounded in more traditional values than you would think

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Speaker 3: when you like go back to look at it.

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Speaker 4: It's so interesting and it was wildly successful.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, this is like a v This

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Speaker 3: was a VHS standby.

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Speaker 1: I spent a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of you know, sick days watching The Birdcage alone

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Speaker 3: and in my whatever, eight nine, ten year old brain,

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Speaker 3: it was the movie where the Genie and Timone were married,

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Speaker 3: and it will always be YEA, yeah, Caitlin, what's your

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Speaker 3: history with the Bird Cage?

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Speaker 5: So I bring this up on the podcast every now

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Speaker 5: and then where there's a movie that I've seen a

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Speaker 5: few clips of before I actually saw the movie. And

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Speaker 5: I saw the clips by playing the movie trivia game.

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Speaker 5: Seen it.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, right this movie got play.

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Speaker 3: Whoever did see it was a big bird Cage fan.

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Speaker 5: The bird Cage because I would see the clip where

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Speaker 5: Robin Williams is teaching or kind of like demonstrating to

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Speaker 5: this dancer for an upcoming performance, different dances that he

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Speaker 5: can do. He's like Madonna, Madonna, Twila, Twila.

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Speaker 3: You know that part is so like when I was

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Speaker 3: rewatching it, I was like, oh, that's just a moment

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Speaker 3: where they were like Robin Williams, just do Robin Williams

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Speaker 3: think here and he and boy did he?

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Speaker 5: He sure did. And so it was that scene. It

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Speaker 5: was the scene where Robin Williams is telling Nathan Lane

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Speaker 5: to keep his pinky down and that men's smear, you know,

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Speaker 5: iconic scenes, and I would watch them and I'm like,

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Speaker 5: what is this movie? What movie is are these scenes from?

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Speaker 5: And then I eventually saw the movie, I think when

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Speaker 5: I was probably a freshman in college, and I was like,

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Speaker 5: oh my gosh, I get why it was so heavily

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Speaker 5: featured and seen it. It's such a fun, funny movie,

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Speaker 5: and I watched it every few years after that. Again,

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Speaker 5: not one I grew up with, but one I've appreciated

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Speaker 5: as an adult. And I'm glad we're finally covering it.

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Speaker 5: There's so much to talk about.

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Speaker 1: It's an awesome It's also just like I love a farce.

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Speaker 1: I love a damn farce.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize, because i'm, you know, uncultured swine, that

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Speaker 3: this was based on a French play. And I love

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Speaker 3: finding out something like that because it makes me feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm secretly, like so smart. And that's actually why

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Speaker 3: I watched The Bird Cage one hundred times, is because

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Speaker 3: I love French theater culture exactly exactly.

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Speaker 5: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

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Speaker 5: back for the recap. And we are back, and here

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Speaker 5: is the recap for The Bird Cage. We open in

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Speaker 5: South Beach in Miami, Florida. Ever heard of it on

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Speaker 5: a drag club called the bird Cage. That's the name

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Speaker 5: of the movie.

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Speaker 1: We're Cheering, We're Cheering, Woo.

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Speaker 5: It is run by armand played by Robin Williams. We

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Speaker 5: also meet his partner Albert played by Nathan Lane, a

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Speaker 5: drag performer whose stage name is Starina and Armand and

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Speaker 5: Agadoor played by Hankazaria, who is Armand and Albert's man servant.

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Speaker 1: Cool boy.

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Speaker 8: Yeah really, I'm like, there's so many things to talk

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Speaker 8: about with that character, but one of them was like,

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Speaker 8: I hope he's getting paid in more than rent.

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Speaker 1: I hope he's getting paid money.

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Speaker 5: Right, We're not sure, but anyway, Armand and Agador are

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Speaker 5: trying to convince Albert to get ready and go on

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Speaker 5: stage for the performance. But Albert is too upset because

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Speaker 5: he thinks Armand is cheating on him.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing like Nathan Lane sobbing, like no one sobs

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Speaker 3: like Nathan Lane.

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Speaker 5: Him sobbing him, gasping, him, squealing, It's incredible. Yeah, So

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Speaker 5: he thinks that Armand is cheating on him, and we

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Speaker 5: the audience are kind of led to believe that that

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Speaker 5: might be true.

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Speaker 3: This is a very weird fake out. I will say

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Speaker 3: every time I see this fake out, you're just like,

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Speaker 3: why did they?

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Speaker 4: But whatever, It's it's farcie, but you're still like.

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Speaker 5: Okay, unclear why this was done. So what happens is

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Speaker 5: a young man comes to see Armand, but twist it's

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Speaker 5: his son, but not his secret lover. So his son

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Speaker 5: Val played by Dan Futterman, is there to ask for

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Speaker 5: his dad's blessing because he wants to get married to

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Speaker 5: his girlfriend Barbara, and Armand is like, you're twenty years

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Speaker 5: old and you're too young to get married.

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Speaker 1: But and he was right to say it. He was

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Speaker 1: right to say it. I'm just not wrong.

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Speaker 3: I was seeing a lot of letterbox reviews of this

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Speaker 3: movie that put in words something that I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: that is sort of because we're told they're twenty repeatedly,

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Speaker 3: but like in nineteen ninety six, twenty year olds looked

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Speaker 3: thirty five. Like it's just I don't know if it's

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Speaker 3: like a dressing thing. I don't know if it's like

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Speaker 3: a skincare thing. I mean, they're dressed like adults. But

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Speaker 3: I just kept being like, they're yeah, they're too young,

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Speaker 3: but they also look like, you know, they're in their thirties.

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Speaker 1: They probably have I don't know.

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Speaker 5: It's confusing, yeah, but they are twenty. And Armand is like,

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Speaker 5: what are you doing? But I guess go ahead and

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Speaker 5: have your hetero wedding. Then we meet Barbara played by

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Speaker 5: Klysta Flockhart and her family. Her dad is Kevin Keeley

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Speaker 5: played by Gene Hackman. He's a conservative senator and co

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Speaker 5: founder of something called the Coalition for Moral Order. Her mom,

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Speaker 5: Louise played by Diane Weist, is a very like wife

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Speaker 5: of a conservative senator type, you know, very like in

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Speaker 5: Pearl Clutching. Yeah, and her parents are not thrilled with

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Speaker 5: the idea of Barbara getting married so young either, but

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Speaker 5: they kind of warm up to the idea when Barbara

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Speaker 5: says that VAL's dad is a cultural attache to Greece

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Speaker 5: and his mom is a housewife. But we know that

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Speaker 5: VAL's dad is the owner of a drag club and

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Speaker 5: his quote unquote mom is Nathan Lane.

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Speaker 1: So way better. But they did they didn't better.

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Speaker 4: They didn't realize, they didn't know how good they had.

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Speaker 5: It, I know. So then Senator Keeley gets embroiled in

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Speaker 5: a scandal where his colleague and the other founder of

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Speaker 5: the Coalition for Moral Order was found dead with an

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Speaker 5: underage black sex worker. And we will unpack that later. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: but her parents are like, hmm, maybe our daughter's wedding

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Speaker 5: to vow can rehabilitate our image especially because they think

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Speaker 5: Val comes from this very traditional, wholesome, heterosexual family, and

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Speaker 5: especially because right now the press is having a field

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Speaker 5: day with this scandal and Senator A. Kiley's reputation is

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Speaker 5: on the line. Then we get that famous scene where

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Speaker 5: Albert is rehearsing and Armand is directing, and Albert says,

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Speaker 5: he blew a bubble with gum at me while I

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Speaker 5: was singing. He can't do that while I'm singing, And

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Speaker 5: then Armand does that demonstration of all the dance moves

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Speaker 5: the other.

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Speaker 1: Preferred culturally impactful indeed.

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Speaker 5: Then Val takes Armand aside and tells him that Barbara

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Speaker 5: and her parents are coming for dinner the following day

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Speaker 5: and how they're very conservative, and that Barbara told them

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Speaker 5: all that stuff about VAL's parents being a cultural attache

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Speaker 5: and a house life. So Val asks his dad and

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Speaker 5: Albert to play that part, which will mean hiding all

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Speaker 5: of their penis art and quote unquote so much dick art.

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Speaker 5: It's hilarious.

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Speaker 3: I honestly like it's I And you don't realize how

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Speaker 3: much is there until they have to remove.

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Speaker 5: It, until they're packing it up, and you're like, hmm,

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Speaker 5: that's quite a bit. Yeah, so they have to hide

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Speaker 5: all of that. They have to quote unquote act more straight,

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Speaker 5: which includes sending Albert away for a few days. He

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Speaker 5: can't even be present.

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Speaker 3: And this is where I mean, like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to talk about I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: evil villain.

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Speaker 5: Val, like Val, Oh my gosh, yes.

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Speaker 1: How ungrateful.

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Speaker 3: His mother is literally Nathan Lane and look how he's

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Speaker 3: dealing with Like ugh, Val, Yeah, we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 5: So Val makes all these homophobic demands, and Armand is like,

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Speaker 5: fuck that, I'm not going to pretend to be somebody

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Speaker 5: else for this conservative asshole. But then Armand changes his

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Speaker 5: mind and agrees to play along for the sake of

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Speaker 5: his son, because ultimately, every movie is about fathers and sons.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and see it's like that's where it's like, it's

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Speaker 3: it's subversive and it's traditional. It's still about fathers and sons,

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Speaker 3: so people can be comfortable.

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Speaker 5: Yes, exactly. So Armand suggests to Albert that he go

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Speaker 5: away on a trip, because again, Albert is quite effeminate

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Speaker 5: and doesn't fit this image that they're trying to create

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Speaker 5: a vow coming from this traditional hetero family, and Albert

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Speaker 5: is very very understandably hurt by this, and Armand tries

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Speaker 5: to comfort and reassure him, and then Albert's like, well,

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Speaker 5: what if I pretend to be a relative who drops in,

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Speaker 5: you know, Uncle al I could play it straight. And

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Speaker 5: this is the scene where Armand tries to coach Albert

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Speaker 5: on how to you know, quote unquote act straight, how

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Speaker 5: to keep his pinky down, and how to smear condiments

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Speaker 5: like a man, and walk like a man and chew

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Speaker 5: tobacco like a man. Yes, but like a man.

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Speaker 1: I was hoping this was taking a turn for Titanic.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, of course, naturally. And meanwhile, Barbara and her

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Speaker 5: family have snuck away from the hordes of press surrounding

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Speaker 5: their house. They drive from Ohio to Florida over the

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Speaker 5: course of I think a single day, and it takes

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Speaker 5: longer than that, but anyway, who's counting. They make this

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Speaker 5: quick trip to Florida to meet VAL's family, but there

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Speaker 5: are a couple journalists who saw them escape and now

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Speaker 5: they are following the family back in South Beach. Val

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Speaker 5: finds out that Armand told Albert that he can stay

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Speaker 5: and pretend to be uncle al Val is freaking out,

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Speaker 5: and really, this is the peak of him being a

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Speaker 5: little shit and our mom's like, okay, well what we

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Speaker 5: really need is a woman to pretend to be your mother.

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Speaker 5: Hey wait, let's just ask your actual birth mother. Who

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Speaker 5: turns out to be Christine Baranski.

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Speaker 1: Which, if you have to choose a birth.

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Speaker 7: Mother, you like, that's like you couldn't do better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's truly about as good as you can do, truly.

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Speaker 5: Her name is Catherine Armand goes to see her. They

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Speaker 5: reminisce about how they met, that one time that they

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Speaker 5: slept together where she got pregnant and had vowel.

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Speaker 1: It's a great scene.

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Speaker 3: I also love the like like this is the very

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Speaker 3: nineties two thousands contrivance. I'm sure it's still around, but

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Speaker 3: like she's just vaguely business like, like you don't like

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Speaker 3: she has an office, and you're like, good for her.

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Speaker 3: We like whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: She's like too, she's girl bossing.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, or like woohoo executive realness.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, the SHEEO of a company. And Albert walks

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Speaker 5: in on them being kind of handsy slash. It's Christine

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Speaker 5: Baranski who's like really touching Armand in a way that

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Speaker 5: we're not sure that he's comfortable or consenting to it.

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Speaker 5: But anyway, Albert sees this, he gets upset and he

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Speaker 5: threatens to leave. Armand comforts him once again gives him

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Speaker 5: calamony papers saying that he has like rightful ownership of

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Speaker 5: the club, and Armand decides to tell Catherine not to

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Speaker 5: come to dinner after all. Meanwhile, Val is continuing his

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Speaker 5: little homophobic meltdown. Then Catherine calls to be like, wait,

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Speaker 5: so you don't want me to come, and Val is

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Speaker 5: like no, no, no, no, we do want you to come,

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Speaker 5: because again he's just too ashamed of Albert. So Catherine

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Speaker 5: makes her way to the house. Albert, who is upset

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Speaker 5: that he's not effectively passing as straight, locks himself in

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Speaker 5: his room. Then the Kiley family arrives to the house

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Speaker 5: for dinner, and Armand and Val are doing their best

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Speaker 5: to pretend that Armand is straight. The whole situation is

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Speaker 5: awkward and uncomfortable and funny. We have Hank Azarias slipping

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Speaker 5: all over.

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Speaker 3: This is where the iconic shoes bit comes in and

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Speaker 3: I just love, like whatever, Gene Hackman, who knows he's

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Speaker 3: I don't even know where I would rank him in

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Speaker 3: the you know, he's in the bottom half of this cast,

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Speaker 3: which is saying something because I think he's awesome, right,

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Speaker 3: But like the second how he like instantly connects with

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Speaker 3: Albert without knowing, Like it's just it's so funny.

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Speaker 1: It's like they're they're just killing it.

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Speaker 5: It's great, right, because before that the dynamic is extremely awkward,

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Speaker 5: and Gene Hackman goes on this long, boring ti rae

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Speaker 5: about the foliage in Virginia or something like that, and

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Speaker 5: everyone's like.

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Speaker 1: Uh huh.

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Speaker 5: And then the big moment comes where Albert, dressed as

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Speaker 5: a woman, comes in pretending to be VAL's mom, who

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Speaker 5: is a conservative housewife, and then yeah, Gene Hackman's character

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Speaker 5: immediately takes a liking to her, which also like kind

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Speaker 5: of threatens Barbara's mom and she's like.

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Speaker 1: You like her better than me? And low key he does.

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Speaker 1: Like they hit it off.

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Speaker 5: Especially because Nathan Lane in drag pretending to be VAL's

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Speaker 5: mother is like spewing some of the most like the

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Speaker 5: wildest conservative rhetoric where it's like, no, I don't even

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Speaker 5: I don't think we should kill abortion doctors. We should

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Speaker 5: kill the mothers who are trying to have abortions.

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Speaker 1: Just like ugh, it's like it's I don't know.

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Speaker 4: It's part of why I love this movie is so

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Speaker 4: much because it works on it. Like he, you know,

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Speaker 4: Albert's playing five D chess.

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Speaker 3: He's like doing conservative drag too, like he's intellectual drag

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Speaker 3: on top of like it's amazing.

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Speaker 5: It's so funny.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So meanwhile, the journalists have lost track of the Kighleis,

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Speaker 5: but they're taking what information they do have to try

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Speaker 5: to figure out where they've gone. And they find out

390
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Speaker 5: about the Birdcage nightclub owned by someone named armand Goldman,

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Speaker 5: and there's this mix up of like are they the

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Speaker 5: Coleman's or the Goldmans because another component of it is

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Speaker 5: that they're pretending not to be Jewish in order to,

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Speaker 5: you know, impress this conservative Christian family. So that's part

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Speaker 5: of it. Now it's time for dinner, and this is

396
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Speaker 5: where things really start to fall apart because there are

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Speaker 5: these gay horny bowls. Albert's wig is falling off. Catherine

398
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Speaker 5: shows up because she still thinks they need her to

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Speaker 5: be there, and then Senator and Missus Keeley are like

400
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Speaker 5: who is this and why do you have two moms?

401
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 5: So Val finally reveals the truth, which is that Armand

402
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Speaker 5: and Albert are together as a gay couple. They run

403
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Speaker 5: the drug club downstairs. They are his parents. The Kilis

404
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 5: are horrified and they're about to leave, but the journalists

405
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 5: are on the doorsteps, so they're kind of trapped there.

406
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 5: The press have gotten wind about the senator possibly being there,

407
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Speaker 5: so then they get the idea to sneak the Kihlis

408
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 5: out through the club by dressing them in drag so

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Speaker 5: that they will escape undetected, and that works, and then

410
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 5: we cut to Val and Barbara's wedding and it's all

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Speaker 5: of you know, like Barbara's conservative friends and family looking

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Speaker 5: over at VAL's queer friends and family being like, what

413
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 5: what's going? And that's the end of the movie. So

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Speaker 5: let's take another quick break and we will come back

415
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 5: to discuss. Okay, there's a lot to unpack.

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Speaker 1: Where did they get Yeah, and then well what stands

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Speaker 1: out to you?

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Speaker 4: Where would you like to start, guests, Honor.

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Speaker 7: There are so many places to start.

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Speaker 6: I always like starting in a conversation about this movie

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Speaker 6: with Nathan Lane because I think he I mean, we

422
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Speaker 6: can talk about Nichols and May sort of being the

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Speaker 6: DNA of the film, but I think the film lives

424
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Speaker 6: and dies on Lane's performance and the way that he

425
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 6: really keys into the tone. And I think in that

426
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Speaker 6: dinner scene when he is doing this like conservative drag

427
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Speaker 6: to the m degree is working on so many levels

428
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Speaker 6: for audiences who are keyed into what he's doing. Najie

429
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Speaker 6: Hackman obviously not senator to Chilly, who's always only seeing

430
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Speaker 6: the little stuff in front of him, which is like,

431
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Speaker 6: this is what a woman looks like, this is what

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Speaker 6: a woman's supposed to think, this is what I want.

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Speaker 6: She's only agreeing with me, she's only right, like she's

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Speaker 6: of course, he takes a liking to her. Yeah, And

435
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Speaker 6: I think the farce of the movie, which I think

436
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 6: is what Lane does so well, is what helps for

437
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 6: me sand down a lot of the problems, right, So,

438
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 6: like the fact that Val is an asshole, right, and

439
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 6: the fact that he's like really an ungrateful son. The

440
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 6: only reason that works is because this is a farce

441
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 6: and not a melodrama. If this were a melodrama, then

442
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 6: we would be encouraged more to like examine why, like

443
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 6: the whys of what he's being such a little bastard

444
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 6: of a son, and like why he's being so ungrateful.

445
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 6: But because this is a farce and because we know

446
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 6: this is sort of this plot that's going to put

447
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 6: into motion all of these like hilarious antics, I think

448
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 6: it makes me a little bit softer on valid because

449
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 6: I think the movie actually ends it pushes us to

450
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 6: disagree with him. I think there's no if you walk

451
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 6: out of the bird cage thinking that, well Val I

452
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 6: was asking was normal or acceptable, Like, I think you've

453
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 6: not read the film, because the film really just wants

454
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 6: to get you to the point to be like this

455
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 6: never should have happened, right, And so it indicts Val.

456
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 6: And it does that by giving Lane and giving Albert

457
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 6: so much power in those funny scenes in like you

458
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 6: you're so drawn to him and drawn to what he's doing,

459
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 6: and those right as we were talking at the beginning,

460
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 6: like he can sigh and it's funny, he can squeal

461
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 6: and it's funny. He can gasp when it's funny. He

462
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 6: can like look as scans and it's funny. His wig

463
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 6: can be like coming off and it's hilarious. And he

464
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 6: does so much with every single line reading that of

465
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 6: course you're falling in love with them in every single

466
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 6: version of them, so I think in that sense, like

467
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 6: that's where I always begin.

468
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, and in an ideal world or you know, an

469
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 5: alternate universe, the plot of this movie wouldn't even have

470
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 5: to exist because val would have just been like, yeah,

471
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 5: these are my parents, armand and all, and they are

472
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 5: happily together as a gay couple. Okay, right, but that's

473
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 5: not the world we live in. And so you know,

474
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 5: the movie hinges on them pretending to be a straight

475
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 5: couple to appease a conservative senator. And you know, we

476
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 5: can talk about the way that culminates as far as

477
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 5: like and the conservative family learned their lesson not to

478
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 5: be so homophobic and.

479
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: Right, And it's like if we don't even I mean

480
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: not until like head can it. We don't even know

481
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 3: that they like probably they didn't learn their lesson. I

482
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: don't I don't think that this leads like this leads

483
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 3: to Senator Kelly, you know, proposing legislation that's friendly to

484
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: queer people.

485
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: I just don't see it.

486
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: It feels almost like, I mean sorry to immediately go here,

487
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 3: but almost like a like a Donald Trumpian thing where

488
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: you know, as someone who has a ton of queer

489
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: people and in their life, but would never in his

490
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: life put forth any legislation for them to be treated equally.

491
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, I think minimiir to your point,

492
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 3: Like if we're viewing this movie and I feel like

493
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: we have to because of the culture it was released into,

494
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: as like nineteen ninety six, in general, a movie will

495
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: be successful if it is presented in the US to

496
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 3: a straight audience, and the.

497
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 4: Fact that this movie's resolution is.

498
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: Hinged on letting Armand and Albert be who they are

499
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: is meaningful and that like Val, like you were saying, man, well,

500
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 3: like Val did the wrong thing by asking his parents

501
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 3: to which feels so obvious now right, like obviously, you know,

502
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: I think.

503
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: From a twenty twenty four perspective.

504
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: Like he is a villain, and like Albert should be

505
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: allowed to legally kill him if he chose.

506
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: I That's just how I feel.

507
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: But but like, yeah, for in the culture that this

508
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 3: movie was released into, I feel like it really tracks.

509
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: And it's like, while there is a part of me

510
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: that wants this movie to push even more, I also

511
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: know that, you know, it's very likely because we've talked

512
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 3: about this in a lot of movies that have queer protagonists.

513
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: How it's so easy to be totally screwed over in

514
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: terms of ratings, in terms of distribution, and in terms

515
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: of just getting your work out there, especially the further

516
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: back you go in history, if things are if whatever

517
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 3: invisible line is crossed, and I think for the time

518
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: this movie came out and the cast and just like

519
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: all of these incredible things that it goes way further

520
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: than most movies at this time were, and it like

521
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: definitely doesn't hurt that it's so fucking funny, no, right.

522
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 5: And like we said, it centers a story that, at

523
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 5: least at this time and especially in mainstream American media,

524
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 5: was acknowledging something that was not often brought up, which

525
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 5: is that, you know, in order to survive, queer people

526
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 5: often had to hide significant parts of themselves. They had

527
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 5: to you know, code switch in a number of ways

528
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 5: just to be safe out in the world and not

529
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 5: be you know, quote unquote detected. And we see all

530
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 5: those scenes where Armand is teaching Albert how to quote

531
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 5: unquote act straight, smear, pinky down, walk like John Way

532
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: and all that kind of stuff, and then that brings

533
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 5: up this concept of performing gender and what society's idea

534
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 5: is of what it is to be a man or

535
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 5: to be a woman, which generally speaking is a very

536
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 5: you know, rigid, binary, heterocentric view from society.

537
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well that's like perfectly demonstrated by how like

538
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 3: Senator Keeley is immediately taken in by Albert's conservative drag,

539
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: like it's it couldn't be clear, and that like gender

540
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: is constructed based on how immediately he's like this lady

541
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: rocks yea, like she looks and sounds like I need

542
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: her to.

543
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 7: Yeah. I think so there's two things.

544
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 6: I think, Yes, this that the context in which the

545
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 6: movie was made is sort of very important, I think

546
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 6: sometimes gets cossed over. But I think also the fact

547
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 6: that it takes place in South Beach, because I think

548
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 6: it reminds us that there are and were places where

549
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 6: gay folks queer folks created a community.

550
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 7: Where they didn't need to coad switch. Right.

551
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 6: So that scene where Arman and Albert are walking to

552
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 6: the restaurant where he's going to teach him how to

553
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 6: smear like a man, they passed through so many gay

554
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 6: men and they say hi, And the film really paints

555
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 6: South Beach, you know, as you know, Fire Island, or

556
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 6: as Province down or as pump Springs as these like

557
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 6: havens of queer community that live in isolation, right, Like

558
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 6: this is a place where they've created a community and

559
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 6: a space and a business and a life that doesn't require.

560
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 7: Them to coad switch.

561
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 6: And I think, right, that's that also can key us

562
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 6: into sort of like, oh, this is what happens when

563
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 6: val leaves. Right, val grew up in but as soon

564
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 6: as he's needing to interact with the with the outside world,

565
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 6: with Achilles of the world, like, he has no way

566
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 6: of doing that because he's never had to. And I

567
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 6: think to me, that's also fascinating. Thing is like it's

568
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 6: usually queer folks who have to be like being like, oh,

569
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 6: this is what the world expects of me, But in

570
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 6: this case, it's Valve being like, I don't have the

571
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 6: language I have, I have no way of doing this,

572
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 6: so of course I'm going to retreat into what I know.

573
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 6: And in terms of this, like the gender performance, I

574
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 6: hear this is also like farce. Like if we've seen

575
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 6: Shakespeare in comedy, it's like it's always men dressing as

576
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 6: women and like everyone So I think it's it's fascinating

577
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 6: that Nicholson may sort of like really be like, this

578
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 6: is the genre in which to do that, and this

579
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 6: is what allows us because this is what we've always

580
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 6: seen in comedy and it's and it and it doesn't.

581
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 6: What does it differently is like it never does it

582
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 6: at the expense of drag performers.

583
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 7: It never does it.

584
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 6: At the expensive it's queer characters. It's really so reverential

585
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 6: to them, Like it really is an awe of what

586
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 6: Storrena can do and what Albert can do, and they can,

587
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 6: you know, create a character of nothing while they're in

588
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 6: their bedroom. Like I every time, I'm like, oh, he

589
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 6: had that wig, and he had those pearls, and he

590
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 6: had that dress like just in his closet, So what

591
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 6: many other women could he have like drum up in

592
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 6: five minutes while he was you know, crying and wailing

593
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 6: about I would.

594
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: Love to see the other options.

595
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 5: The incredible that's a trying on clothes montage that I

596
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: would have loved to see.

597
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 6: I mean, its dout fire like moment right like is

598
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 6: this wig?

599
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 7: Is this? As these these nails?

600
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: I also, I mean just from uh whatever, having first

601
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 3: seen this movie when I was a kid, I think.

602
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 4: If you don't count Timone and Pumba, which arguably you could.

603
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: This was the first movie at least that I had

604
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: ever seen where there were gay parents and and and

605
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 3: really I mean, while you know, being flawed in all

606
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: the way people are are flawed, both really really good,

607
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: loving kind parents and and it feels like crumbs now,

608
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: but I know for sure if you don't count Timon

609
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 3: and Pumba as adoptive fathers, which again I do, but

610
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 3: but that, yeah, that Albert narmand are we're probably the

611
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: first example in a in a movie I saw of

612
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 3: queer parents, which is wild because it's like I had

613
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 3: uncles who were parents, but I had just never seen

614
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 3: it in a movie before. And and yeah, I mean

615
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: as much of a you know, sort.

616
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: Of like a fearful dipshit that Val can be. You know,

617
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: he had amazing parents and he knows that.

618
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: And that's like part of the frustration of watching that

619
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 3: character go through this is like, you do know that

620
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: at his core he knows that his parents love him

621
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: so much, and he's trying to like fit himself into roundhole,

622
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 3: square peg whatever that metaphor is, right, Yeah, which like

623
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: one of the things that I mean, I don't know,

624
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 3: it's sort of like, I don't really I don't actually

625
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 3: feel like, man, I wish Callista Flockhart was in this more.

626
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 3: No disrespect to her, but it's just like I don't

627
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 3: want to take a second of screen time away from

628
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: Nathan Lane.

629
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I was kind of curious about

630
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: I guess why.

631
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 3: Even in the space of a farce like I would

632
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: have loved to see her be more willing to push

633
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 3: against her parents, right, I feel like that would have,

634
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: you know, characterized her a little bit more and also

635
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: just like would have honestly for you know, would have

636
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: made sense to be more because I'm just like Val.

637
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: If Val grew up in a queer flirty in Paradise,

638
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: why her?

639
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 3: Like?

640
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: Why her?

641
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 3: If she's absolutely unwilling to move like It's just I

642
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: don't know, I was a little confused and put off

643
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: by her character, and I mean that's just personal, but

644
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: also I mean, if we're looking, like looking at the

645
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: women in this story as well, like I was just

646
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 3: kind of like baffled that even by nineteen ninety six standards,

647
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: that she wasn't at least challenging vals, you know, because

648
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: that's an interesting dynamic too, is if Val.

649
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: Is like here's what I'm gonna do.

650
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to do the most evil thing of all

651
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: time in an attempt to be accepted by your family. Like,

652
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 3: what is the response to that? And she's but she

653
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: sort of is just like, yeah, it makes sense to me.

654
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 5: I wonder if that's why those characters are written to

655
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 5: be the age that they are twenty and eighteen, because like, because.

656
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: They're still basically kids. Yeah.

657
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 6: I also think as soon as you see her mom,

658
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 6: you maybe sort of understand why she would be such

659
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 6: a wilting flower, because for most of the movie, Senator

660
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 6: Achilly's wife his sort of mum and submissive and it's

661
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 6: only through the moment of a dinner and again it's

662
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 6: a credit to Weese's performance that she's sort of blossoms. Like,

663
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 6: if we're going to head canon the future of the couple,

664
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 6: I think like she's one who will have emerged from

665
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 6: this being like, oh, not only are queer people I

666
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 6: don't know people, but maybe I should not be so

667
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 6: subservient to my idiot husband because she she is the

668
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 6: one who like sort of pushes back the most out

669
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 6: of her and Callista sort of in the film.

670
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 5: But I wonder if that's only because she's feeling threatened

671
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 5: by how much Gene Hackman seems to be taking a

672
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 5: liking to you know, Albert in Conservative Lady Drag, which

673
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 5: is kind of like a misogynist trope of like, oh

674
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 5: I find this other woman threatening, and so women are

675
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 5: in conflict now because of it. The movie doesn't really

676
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 5: examine that very thoroughly, but I was like, I wonder

677
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 5: if that's kind of why there's any pushback from the

678
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 5: Dian Weiest character.

679
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: But I do think like her performance like brings a

680
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: ton and I don't know, I mean an ultimate like

681
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: this is not a women's movie necessarily, Like I feel

682
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: like to some point it's like that is a lot

683
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 3: of what we talk about. And I do think that

684
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: there is even in like nineteen ninety six by nineteen

685
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: ninety six standards like questions I had.

686
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 4: I don't know how much of that is lost in adaptation.

687
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 3: I'm not familiar with the source material because I'm not

688
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: actually that smart. I've just seen The Birdcage, but I

689
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: mean clearly like this is a story that is centered

690
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 3: on the Goldman family. But I did, yeah, there were

691
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,959
Speaker 3: a few questions I had just about how it felt

692
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: like the women were characterized less thoughtfully, but I mean,

693
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 3: I think it's because two out of the three women

694
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: we see in this movie are kind of these like

695
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 3: conservative stock characters, which makes sense in the space of

696
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 3: a farce. And then we have Christine Baranski, who's just awesome.

697
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: Like one thing I was really happy about in this

698
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: space of this movie is that I feel like, you know,

699
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 3: so often when you see a mother character, whether it's

700
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: just like a biological mother or someone who's taken on

701
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: the role of a mother, you know, someone who has

702
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 3: a child but is not a mother to that child,

703
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 3: like there's just an inherent like how dare you? Or

704
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 3: a woman who gives up a child for adoption, you know,

705
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: like it's there's a how dare you aspect to it

706
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: that this movie just completely foregoes, Like it's there's not

707
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 3: a moment of shame placed on this character, which I

708
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: was I mean, again, just I think maybe it's like

709
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 3: something that you're sort of conditioned to expect in a movie.

710
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, if if someone gives.

711
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: Birth and then the child is adopted, there is an

712
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 3: expectation of shame, of regret, and that the adoptive parents

713
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 3: could not possibly be sufficient and that's just not entertained.

714
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: By the end, it makes total sense in the story,

715
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 3: but it's like this was the arrangement. She doesn't regret it,

716
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: No one regrets it, and she's just like happy to

717
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 3: see Ramand again, I think it's really nice.

718
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 7: Yeah.

719
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 5: I made that note too, that it's so rare to

720
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 5: see in a movie where if like people had a

721
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 5: one night stand and a pregnancy happened because of it,

722
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 5: you would typically see the mother raising the baby, you know,

723
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 5: possibly as a single mother, and then the father may

724
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 5: or may not be in the picture. But in this case,

725
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 5: it's the father who raises the baby, and that's just

726
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 5: something you rarely see in movies.

727
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 3: Knocked Out came out like twelve years after this, and

728
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 3: it's like far more conservative and its view of one

729
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 3: night stands.

730
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 5: Like we have kind of mentioned the context a bit,

731
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 5: and I like to go through it more thoroughly because

732
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 5: it is super interesting of you know, how this movie

733
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 5: came to be and the backs here. So I'm pulling

734
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 5: most of this from a video essay from Matt Baum

735
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 5: entitled The Bird Cage and uh oh French words coming

736
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 5: The Cage of Full The Inside Story, No, No, thank you.

737
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: It's perfect.

738
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 5: Okay, I recommend you know watching this video essay. It

739
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 5: does a really deep dive into the history of how

740
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 5: the movie The Bird Cage came to be. This is

741
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 5: a very kind of summarized version of that. But basically,

742
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 5: two French theater performers, oh more French coming, Jean Pirot

743
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 5: and Michelle Serol, they write a play in I believe

744
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy three called The Bird Cage but in French,

745
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 5: which more or less has the same plot as the

746
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 5: movie The Bird Cage and was kind of loosely inspired

747
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 5: by a British play from the late nineteen sixties called

748
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 5: The Staircase, not to be confused with the true crime

749
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 5: docu series The Staircase.

750
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 3: Which we have actually talked about extensively, extensively. We've been

751
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 3: on a real journey. We don't have time. But yeah,

752
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: he probably did do it.

753
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 5: He probably did do it. Or maybe it was an

754
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 5: owl owl.

755
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: Yeah that was how that was how I knew my

756
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 3: brain was fully developed. Where prior to my brain's full development,

757
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 3: I was like, it was the owl. And then the

758
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: second that shit was locked in, I was like, no.

759
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 7: He obviously did it.

760
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 5: Yeah it yes, So this staircase is about a gay

761
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,479
Speaker 5: couple who, even though they bicker a lot, they love

762
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 5: each other and they're together and they face the world together.

763
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 5: So La caage a Full was then adapted to a

764
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 5: French movie in nineteen seventy eight, and both the play

765
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 5: and the film were loved by audiences straight and queer

766
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 5: audiences alike because of its nuanced depictions of the queer

767
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 5: experience and queer relationships. So the French film got a

768
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 5: very small distribution in the US and it screened at

769
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 5: a couple dozen art house theaters in the late seventies,

770
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 5: but it got rave reviews and I think at least

771
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 5: one OSCAR nomination, So it was appreciated by the audiences

772
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 5: who did see it, although it wasn't a large number

773
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 5: of people, and it was one of the first films

774
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 5: about a gay couple to get a theatrical release in

775
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 5: the US. So an American producer, Alan Carr saw the

776
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 5: movie and wanted to adapt it to an American film,

777
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 5: but no one took him seriously, but they did sell

778
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 5: him the rights for the stage play, so Alan Carr

779
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 5: went to work putting a musical stage production together for

780
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 5: an American audience. He hired Mike Nichols, among other people,

781
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 5: but he fired them all and then hired another team,

782
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 5: including Arthur Laurent and Harvey Feierstein.

783
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, he brought brought the big guns for lag. Yeah.

784
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, okay, not fucking around, not fucking around.

785
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 5: And so they developed the script together. There were artistic

786
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 5: differences in vision throughout the development, but eventually the musical

787
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 5: debuted in Boston. Okay, hello, I ever heard of it,

788
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 5: and I believe nineteen eighty three, and they were really

789
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 5: concerned about how especially Boston audiences would receive it. But

790
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 5: the audiences loved it. And so the musical.

791
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: Boss is full of surprises. And I say this as

792
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: someone currently sitting in it. Yeah, it's it's you never

793
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 3: know what you're going to get, but often it's love

794
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: and acceptance.

795
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 6: I know.

796
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 5: It's so nice. Okay. So then because of the success

797
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 5: in Boston, the musical opened on Broadway and it was

798
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 5: a huge hit. It was nominated for eight Tonies. It

799
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 5: ran for several years, It toured around and an American

800
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 5: film adaptation was the next logical step, but they still

801
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 5: didn't have the film rights at this time. There was

802
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 5: also a bunch of like messy stuff happening in Hollywood

803
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 5: with MGM, the studio that would have been the one

804
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 5: to produce this movie. But eventually the film rights were secured.

805
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 5: This is like the early nineties now that we're talking about, okay,

806
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 5: and Mike Nichols came on board to direct after being

807
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 5: fired from the stage production like a decade earlier. There

808
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 5: was apprehension on the part of the studio because a

809
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 5: major studio doing a mainstream broad comedy about a gay

810
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 5: couple was pretty unheard of at the time, and no

811
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 5: one was really sure how American film going audiences would

812
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 5: respond to this, especially around this time and you know,

813
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,959
Speaker 5: throughout much of history. But there was so much homophobic

814
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 5: rhetoric from conservative politicians who were like running on the

815
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 5: platform of homophobia.

816
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: The Senator Achilles of the actual world.

817
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 5: Of the real world exactly.

818
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is in the context we had Jesse Holmes.

819
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 6: But also, I mean we should also say, like this

820
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 6: was also don't Ask, don't tell, So it is Clinton here.

821
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 6: So it's not just the right wing people that are

822
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 6: sort of presenting a homophobic front.

823
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 5: For sure, it was conservative and you know, democratic politicians alike,

824
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 5: but Mike Nichols was just like very adamant about making

825
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 5: this movie. He cast Robin Williams, Nathan Lane, and Hankazaria

826
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 5: among the other cast members, and many of them and

827
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 5: the studio were nervous about how the movie would be

828
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 5: received by audiences. Ultimately, it was a huge box office success.

829
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 5: It was made on a thirty million dollar budget. It

830
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 5: made one hundred and eighty five million at the box

831
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 5: office or less, saved MGM, which was absolutely flopping as

832
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 5: a studio at the time, and it paved the way

833
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 5: for more queer characters and queer relationships to be present

834
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 5: in mainstream media.

835
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: So and it also reunited I mean as like a

836
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 3: comedy had it reunited Nichols in May, which is like

837
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 3: so beautiful and so cool. I mean, they were like

838
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 3: a truly like still modern comedy defining a duo in.

839
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: I think the fifties.

840
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 3: And they eventually went their separate ways in the sixties.

841
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: And you know, Nichols went on.

842
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 3: To direct a lot of theater and direct movies, and

843
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 3: May also went on to direct and write a lot

844
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 3: of movies.

845
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: Although I think she is still.

846
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 3: Comparatively underappreciated and she's still with us shout out Elaine May.

847
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 3: But this was I mean, they hadn't worked together in gosh,

848
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 3: I mean I think it was decades. I mean it

849
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 3: had been easily twenty five years since they had worked together.

850
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 3: It wasn't like a bad blood situation, but they just

851
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: hadn't worked together in a really long time. And to

852
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 3: come back together in this collaboration is like what a dunk?

853
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 4: Like that's so great.

854
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

855
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 6: This is also where I should say, like if you

856
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 6: have not watched the Broadway show, because it is fantastic

857
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 6: and it is sort of you know, looking back in

858
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 6: the nineteen eighty three if you think of Hiri Feirestein

859
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 6: doing the show, writing the show, and in the Tony

860
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 6: broadcast having there's this big number called I Am What

861
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 6: I Am, which is sung and dragged by the character

862
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 6: about this. That's the number that the producers chose to

863
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 6: do on the Tony broadcast, which they knew would be

864
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 6: watched by like, you know, millions of people. That in

865
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 6: itself was also kind of like groundbreaking to see drag

866
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 6: performers on stage at the Tony Awards, you know, on

867
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 6: network television. So this is the kind of like ip

868
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 6: if you will, that has really been breaking ground sort

869
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 6: of for decades and being away and you know when

870
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 6: we talk about you know, as you said, you know,

871
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 6: it is one of the first examples of like a

872
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 6: queer couple in a mainstream comedy. And then I was like,

873
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 6: where are those films today, Like in twenty twenty four,

874
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 6: I think we're still struggling that that would be, right,

875
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 6: Like The Bird Cage was number one in the box

876
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 6: office three weeks in a row, right, and it was

877
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 6: like in box and I was like, how are we

878
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 6: doing that in nineteen eighty six, And how are we

879
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 6: struggling to even get independent queer cinema in twenty four?

880
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 7: Like sometimes it's just so baffling.

881
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 3: Waffling, it's so and it's like that we learn this

882
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 3: in so many different with so many different marginalized communities

883
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 3: where you know, like you have stories about like, oh, well,

884
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 3: no one wants to see movies with women over a

885
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 3: certain age, and then the First Wives Club comes out

886
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 3: and everyone's like, oh, never mind, but it's still going

887
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 3: to be another twenty years before we get something like

888
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 3: that with an equal success rate. I mean, it's like

889
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: we went through that level of discourse when Black Panther

890
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: was a billion dollar movie, Like it's just like crazy

891
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 3: rich Asians like it just all it happens over and

892
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 3: over it over, and people just never learn.

893
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: It's so frustrating.

894
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 3: And I feel like the nineties, I mean there were

895
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 3: more Yeah to your Apartment, Well, there were more movies

896
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: about queer people that starred mainstream, you know, huge actors

897
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 3: than happens now.

898
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely.

899
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 6: I mean I always think of bird Cage, Tu Wang Fu,

900
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 6: thanks for everything, Julie Newmar and Priscilla Queen of the

901
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 6: Desert at this sort of like this tripartite like moment

902
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 6: where like drag was having a moment, so every time

903
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 6: right now we're having comfortable conversation with like, you know,

904
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 6: RuPaul's Drag Race bringing Dragon to the Masses. I was like, yeah,

905
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 6: but also, twenty five years ago, we had Guy Pearce,

906
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 6: we had Patrick Swayzee, we had John Agisma, we had

907
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 6: Robin Williams and Nathan Leen, all these films that were

908
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 6: really capturing the zeitgeist. And then it still tags decades

909
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 6: for us to do it again, and I'm just waiting

910
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 6: for it to ebb again and flow, And it's kind

911
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 6: of frustrating to keep having these same conversations and either

912
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 6: Hollywood learning the wrong less or belatedly learning them, or

913
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 6: then just forgetting them once in you CEO comes in,

914
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 6: possibly taking over Warner Brothers, I mean, or someone else,

915
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 6: but like, right, it's always it's just.

916
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: So I don't know, like so much of it, in

917
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 1: my mind has to do with.

918
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 3: Like the rise of studio takeovers and how like you know,

919
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 3: Disney is far less likely to make this movie than

920
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 3: whatever other studio, and then you have like whatever, even

921
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 3: if even if you like a handful of them, Marvel.

922
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 1: Movies just like fabreezed the entire landscape of like what.

923
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 3: A blockbuster movie could look like, because this is a

924
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 3: blockbuster movie, like and also just like a hostility towards

925
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 3: original stories, like this is an original story.

926
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 4: But also I mean, Caitlin just hearing the fact that it.

927
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 3: Took you know, the better part of twenty years to

928
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 3: get this from the front on stage in France to hear.

929
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, even when we have a story that

930
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 4: centers queer.

931
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 3: People, it has to be tested for twenty years before

932
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 3: it can be considered a viable American movie, and even

933
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 3: then it has to be sort of like couched in

934
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 3: these very careful ways in order to get the proper

935
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 3: rating and get the proper release, and the stars and

936
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 3: just like all this stuff like it's for the fault

937
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 3: that this movie has. It's like one that you're just

938
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 3: like it's a miracle that it came out and that.

939
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 1: It's so good.

940
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 3: And I just wanted to shout out really quickly as well,

941
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 3: because Elaine.

942
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 4: May is a Jewish writer, and also she.

943
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 3: Sort of intersects like it's not just the fact that

944
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 3: Senator Keeley is homophobic, which he overtly is, but also

945
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 3: that he's anti Semitic, and like, you know, I don't

946
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 3: think he would as openly or proudly say that as

947
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 3: he would I'm homophobic, but clearly there is also a

948
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: like cultural code switching on that level too, and just

949
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 3: to see, don't know, I just feel like it speaks

950
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 3: to Elaine May's skill as a writer, that like, this

951
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 3: family is being forced to hide a lot of things

952
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 3: about themselves, and of course their queerness is at the center.

953
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: Of that, but there's also like there's just a.

954
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 3: Lot and I don't know, in some ways it it's

955
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 3: like VAL's a villain, but it's also like kind of

956
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 3: tragic that he has grown up in such an accepting

957
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 3: environment and still is so affected by the greater cultural

958
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 3: forces that he is tempted to become hostile towards the

959
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 3: people he loves most.

960
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 5: Senator Keeley is also deeply racist. He says different things

961
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 5: about the Agador character as does armand says racist and

962
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 5: xenophobic things about the Agador character. And then the Agador

963
00:53:55,080 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 5: character himself is Hanka's Area playing a from Guatemala. Hanka's

964
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 5: Area is not a Guatemalan or LATINX actor. He's doing

965
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 5: one of his hank Azaria accents.

966
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: Hank Azaria.

967
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I've kind of forgot that this was like

968
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 3: on his list of crimes.

969
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: Honestly, Yeah, because.

970
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 3: There's a lot of discussed, popularly discussed crimes with hank Asaria,

971
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 3: and this one, I feel like is maybe because there's

972
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 3: whole documentaries on his performance as Uphu.

973
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 5: Yes, we will refer you to a documentary called The

974
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 5: Problem with a Poo, where comedian Hari Kuonbalu examines the

975
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 5: representation of South Asian characters in Western movies and TV

976
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 5: and how a poo from The Simpsons, which is voiced

977
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 5: by Hanka's Area, significantly set that representation back, he's doing

978
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 5: a very similar thing with the Agador character in this movie,

979
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 5: and it's just incredibly frustrating to watch.

980
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,720
Speaker 3: It's like the part of this movie that very clearly

981
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 3: ages the absolute worst.

982
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

983
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 3: And then also there is like precedent for this prejudice

984
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 3: and quiet brown face in comedy and in farce, and

985
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 3: like he's certainly not the first.

986
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 4: To do it, but it's like it's so agreedious.

987
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 3: And otherwise close to in my close to perfect, like

988
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: wonderful movie sticks out like a sore thumb.

989
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, And especially because like this movie is set in

990
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 6: South Beach. So it's also when I was like, oh,

991
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 6: why we would need one Latin character, right, like Latino

992
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 6: Latin character, because that would make sense for the time,

993
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 6: wouldn't make sense with the geography. And so I could

994
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 6: see that there was a reason to like have an

995
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 6: Aggador like character, but he didn't have to be this way,

996
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 6: and it didn't have to be like this, and it

997
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 6: didn't have to be played by Hanka's area. I used

998
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 6: to to wonder, like who might have been able to

999
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 6: sort of do a much more interesting job or a

1000
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 6: much more nuanced but this is very much this. It

1001
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 6: is the lowest hanging through jokes of the entire film,

1002
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 6: and they're hard to They do make it hard to watch,

1003
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 6: just sort of like the Nicky Rooney part of Requisitiphanies,

1004
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 6: which is like, oh yeah, I can't there's no I

1005
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 6: don't know how to reconcile I just because there's no way.

1006
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 3: To, right. Yeah. I mean, in the fact that this

1007
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 3: Naday is shot partially in Florida and partially in Los Angeles,

1008
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 3: there are so many talented Latin comic actors, Like, there's

1009
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 3: absolutely no excuse for Castingcazaria in this not to mention

1010
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 3: it's like it's not like Hanka's area is the reason.

1011
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 3: Like he's like the tenth most famous person in this movie.

1012
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: Like just don't cast him.

1013
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 5: You don't need him in that way. This movie is

1014
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 5: still very much a reflection of the kind of standards

1015
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 5: of the nineteen nineties where, you know, as we've been saying,

1016
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 5: it's mostly white characters were white actors. It's all sis

1017
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 5: actors and characters. There are physical embraces and like pecks

1018
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 5: on the cheek between Armand and Albert, but there's no

1019
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 5: significant like romantic kiss things like that that you're like, oh, yeah,

1020
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 5: This movie came out in the nineties, but as I

1021
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 5: was touching on in the kind of context corner of

1022
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 5: this movie, it was very groundbreaking in many ways, and

1023
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 5: I think the reason it has such a lasting legacy

1024
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 5: from its, you know, kind of conception as a French

1025
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 5: production in the seventies is that it did present queer

1026
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 5: characters with far more nuance than audiences had seen. And

1027
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 5: part of that is because there's an exploration of how

1028
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 5: these characters feel while being forced to fit this like

1029
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 5: you know, rigid mold of heteronormativity and masculinity and to

1030
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 5: pretend to be someone there not. You have different monologues

1031
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 5: from Armand and from Albert saying like, I know who

1032
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 5: I am. It took me twenty years to get here,

1033
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 5: but I'm not gonna let some idiot senator destroy that.

1034
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 5: Fuck the senator. I don't give a damn what he thinks.

1035
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 5: Like he is embraced who he is and he doesn't

1036
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 5: want to backtrack from that. Albert, you know, when he

1037
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 5: learns his family wants to send him away, he's like, oh,

1038
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 5: I get it. You think I'm some monster. I'm a freak.

1039
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 5: And he's you know, saying something like I'm not gonna

1040
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 5: stay where I'm not wanted, where I can be thrown

1041
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 5: out on a whim without legal rights. So these characters

1042
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 5: are advocating for themselves, and they're very steadfast in who

1043
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 5: they are. And yes, they're in this community of you know,

1044
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 5: South Beach where they don't have to deal with the

1045
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 5: same level of homophobia as other parts of the country.

1046
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 5: Not to say that this is the first time they're

1047
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 5: dealing with this, but I imagine if they've been in

1048
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 5: South Beach for a while, this is the first time

1049
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 5: in a while that they've had to kind of retreat

1050
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 5: back into the closet and hide their authentic selves. So

1051
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 5: as we discussed, yeah, like interesting to see vow make

1052
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 5: these demands, I chalk it up to him being again

1053
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 5: this child, twenty year old child. All this to say

1054
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 5: that I appreciate that part of this is letting the

1055
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 5: characters express how they feel about this harmful societal expectation,

1056
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 5: showing how traumatic it is for the characters to have

1057
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 5: to deal with. Those scenes were some of the most

1058
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 5: powerful to me, and I'm glad the movie took the

1059
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 5: time to show that those were some of my favorite

1060
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 5: moments in the movie.

1061
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 6: And also everyone in Drag. At the end, I think

1062
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 6: just the shot of Gene Hackman in Drag is worth

1063
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 6: the price of admission.

1064
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 3: And just like, yeah, Gene Hackman is again and like

1065
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 3: I would rank him like fifth in performances I.

1066
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: Love in this movie.

1067
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 3: But like he is showing this like simultaneous, like I

1068
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 3: don't think I've ever quite seen a facial expression that

1069
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 3: both demonstrated like wow, this is so exciting and like

1070
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to like this, it's not actually awesome,

1071
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 3: like and just seeing that in a space of express

1072
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: like one expression is really lovely.

1073
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 5: For sure. I want to unpack the scandal, like the

1074
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 5: you know, Senator colleague, the.

1075
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 3: Other thing that ages inexcusably poorly.

1076
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 5: Right where it's you know, the co founder of the

1077
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 5: Coalition of Moral Order, this very ultra conservative, you know,

1078
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 5: family values guy being found with an underage black sex worker,

1079
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 5: and the way she has talked about the way she

1080
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 5: is framed by the movie to some extent, I see

1081
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 5: what they're trying to do, which is that they're trying

1082
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 5: to emphasize the irony that this you know, Christian Crusader

1083
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 5: would cheat on his wife, the irony that she is black,

1084
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 5: when this politician is very likely racist, but also the

1085
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 5: sex worker being black feels like it's a thing that

1086
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 5: makes it all the more scandalous. Also, her being underage

1087
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 5: is not addressed.

1088
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 1: And what I found.

1089
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 3: Most frustrating about all of this because yeah, I think

1090
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 3: it is like an attempt at satire of like, here

1091
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 3: is a person, like an underage black sex worker is

1092
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 3: someone who this politician would absolutely have a vested interest

1093
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 3: in disadpranchising and you know, not someone that you think

1094
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 3: he would ever want to meet, right, and so like

1095
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 3: not only are they, you know, exposing him to be

1096
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 3: a child sex abuser, but also you know, obviously it's

1097
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,439
Speaker 3: but it's like the way that that character is then

1098
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 3: presented by the movie, which is also as a joke,

1099
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 3: kind of undercut any attempt for sure at satire where

1100
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, I think in a modern context,

1101
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 3: like it's basically impossible to make this attempted joke work,

1102
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 3: especially from completely in a movie that is otherwise completely

1103
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 3: white and with one character that's Hanka's area and brown

1104
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 3: face not for the first time.

1105
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 4: But the fact that we do see this character.

1106
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 3: And she is presented in a bronze stereotypical way to boot. Like,

1107
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 3: it's just like if there was any doubt that this

1108
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 3: movie was not equipped to even attempt that satire, I

1109
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 3: feel like that really kind of sealed it for me

1110
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 3: on this viewing.

1111
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 5: For sure.

1112
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1113
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I like to think it was like it almost

1114
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 6: narratively made more sense for it to have been a

1115
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 6: gay affair, Yeah, right, like it would have set up

1116
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 6: it would have been so much cleaner and neaterer and

1117
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 6: sort of but then maybe that in itself would have

1118
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 6: been a little bit too much or too obvious because

1119
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 6: it is about the hypocrisy. But yeah, the choice of

1120
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 6: target and that hypocrisy feels weighted in a way that

1121
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 6: the film kind of like never really deals with for sure.

1122
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the way that like you see how prejudiced

1123
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 3: Senator Keeley is.

1124
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 4: The people that he's prejudiced against.

1125
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: At least narratively, who we know, we have a deeper.

1126
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 3: Knowledge of, we have a lot of empathy for, we

1127
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 3: know them, and that is the one character that you

1128
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 3: don't get that treatment for. It's like you're just presented

1129
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 3: with a broad stereotypical reaction and a broad stereotypical character

1130
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 3: that I think like unintentionally almost reinforces what the movie's

1131
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 3: trying to criticize.

1132
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, is like that was just.

1133
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 4: And also like minimal Narratively, it does.

1134
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 3: Make way more sense for sure, because then it's like, oh,

1135
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 3: not only is Senator Keeley afraid of any scandal, He's

1136
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 3: specifically afraid of this type of scandal.

1137
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, that it would have been a far more logical

1138
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 5: choice to make in the movie rather than what they

1139
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 5: do well nineteen ninety six. Meanwhile, I wanted to ask

1140
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 5: your thoughts, and I know this might be opening kind

1141
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 5: of a can of worms, and this is a much discussed,

1142
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 5: complicated question, but I was just curious on your thoughts

1143
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 5: of the straight actors playing gay characters in Robin Williams

1144
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 5: and Hanka's area. I know it's a different scenario for

1145
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 5: Nathan Lane. Obviously he was out to his friends and

1146
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 5: family at the time of this movie. He came out

1147
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 5: publicly a couple years later, I think in ninety nine.

1148
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 5: But yeah, curious of your thoughts on that it is.

1149
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 6: A can of worms, and it is. You know, it's

1150
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 6: a conversation that I've had a lot over the past

1151
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 6: few years. I feel like if you were a queer

1152
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 6: critic writing, you just constantly run into this. What I

1153
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 6: always say is that I don't have a moral or

1154
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 6: an esthetic about straight actors playing gays, so long as

1155
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 6: they're doing it with care, with curiosity. To me, this

1156
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 6: has always been a labor issue more so than an

1157
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 6: aesthetic one. Like I don't it's not my place to

1158
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 6: say that an actor can or can't play X or

1159
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 6: Y or Z, because I think then it becomes very murky.

1160
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 6: But it is a labor issue when if Hollywood studios

1161
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 6: and casting executives and directors are only offering these parts

1162
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 6: to straight actors, I think we should interrogate why. And

1163
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 6: I think we should interrogate that why at a larger

1164
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 6: sort of systemic level, in terms of who is getting paid,

1165
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 6: who is getting promoted, who is getting distributed, who is

1166
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 6: getting project screenlt why that rarely happens for out queer actors.

1167
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 6: And so that's always how I want to frame it,

1168
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 6: that this is a labor concern more so than an

1169
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 6: aesthetic one.

1170
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 7: Because I do think.

1171
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 6: I mean, I look at Robin Williams and what he's

1172
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 6: doing with armand doesn't feel a caricature, doesn't feel mockery,

1173
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 6: it doesn't feel like it's coming from a place of

1174
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 6: hre or of condescension. It's actually coming from a place

1175
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 6: of love. And I think, you know, you see that

1176
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,439
Speaker 6: also in his really tiny bit part in Tuwong Fu.

1177
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 6: You really buy it, and you're really buy it for

1178
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 6: the chemistry that he has with with Nathan Lane writer,

1179
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 6: Like I watch Brooke Bag Mountain and I'm like, I

1180
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 6: love Heath and Jake. I think they get at something

1181
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 6: very real, and I think this is sort of the

1182
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 6: point of the actor. This is exactly what they're supposed

1183
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 6: to be doing, tying into the humanity of the other.

1184
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 6: I don't want any kind of actor, including queer actors,

1185
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 6: to solely be cast according to their very limited identity.

1186
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 6: Like I want queer actors to be able to play

1187
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,919
Speaker 6: straight roles. I want transactors to be able to play

1188
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 6: siss roles. Like I don't because I think as soon

1189
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 6: as we do it from one side, it has to

1190
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 6: come to the other side. But you know, in a

1191
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 6: perfect world, we wouldn't be needing to have this conversation

1192
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 6: because queer actors would be queer, and transactors would be

1193
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 6: given the kinds of opportunities that are solely given right

1194
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 6: now or mostly given right now to SIS straight actors,

1195
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 6: and I think that's for the conversation needs to be happening,

1196
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 6: which is it's a harder one to have than to

1197
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 6: just say, oh yeah, straight actors are not a lot

1198
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 6: because they don't get us and they don't understand us

1199
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 6: or but so that's that's that's always my like tiny

1200
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 6: little soap box.

1201
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, no, no, We've had similar conversations on the

1202
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 5: podcast before when this comes up, and it does boil

1203
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 5: down to this happens because the pool of out queer actors.

1204
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 5: It's not that they don't exist, it's just they aren't

1205
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 5: given the same opportunities as their straight CIS counterparts. It's

1206
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 5: that they don't have the same kind of often rise

1207
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 5: to fame as they're SIS straight counterparts. So yeah, a

1208
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 5: labor issue, it's a cultural issue far more than anything else.

1209
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 5: So great, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Of course,

1210
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 5: So the movie does pass the Bechdel test. I think

1211
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 5: I mean.

1212
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 7: Very loosely right. I was trying to track that.

1213
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 6: I was like, there are like loosely about sort of men,

1214
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 6: but not a man.

1215
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 7: I don't know.

1216
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 3: It's one of those, Yeah, between Barbara and luwise, and

1217
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's passing it best. But again, I feel

1218
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 3: like I have PTSD about how poor, like how the

1219
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 3: Bechdel test is like weaponized when there's movies that center

1220
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 3: queer characters in a way that Alison Bechdel almost certainly

1221
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 3: and like I think in fact has confirmed.

1222
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, that's not how you're supposed to use it.

1223
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 3: I wrote as a joke because I remember that, like

1224
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 3: when during Fire when yeah, when Fire Island came out,

1225
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,719
Speaker 3: they're like, well, this movie isn't everything you think because

1226
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 3: but and you're just like fuck you, like you know,

1227
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 3: it's like this is I don't. I think this is like,

1228
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 3: at best a soft pass, but it's also like doing

1229
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 3: so many things that most movies are that it's like,

1230
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:50,639
Speaker 3: would it be great if it passed?

1231
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: Yes?

1232
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 3: Am I going to think this movie is inherently hostile

1233
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 3: to women in marginalized communities because it doesn't fuck you?

1234
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 5: You know not. The more relevant test here is the

1235
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 5: Veto Russo test, which we bring up now and then,

1236
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 5: which examines the representation of queer characters in media and

1237
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 5: asks if they have any kind of interiority, asks if

1238
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 5: you removed those characters from the story, would it affect

1239
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 5: the plot, and in this case, obviously very very much so.

1240
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 5: The entire story centers these characters, So a high pass

1241
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 5: to the Veto Russo test. Bechdel test not super relevant here,

1242
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 5: but the nipple scale, the Bechdel cast nipple scale the

1243
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 5: most relevant test of them all, where we examine the

1244
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:40,759
Speaker 5: movie on a scale of zero to five nipples. Looking

1245
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 5: at it through an intersectional feminist lens, I would say,

1246
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 5: because of its legacy and the kind of aftermath paving

1247
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 5: the way for more queer representation, I want to give

1248
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 5: it like three and a half nipples. I'm taking some

1249
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:04,599
Speaker 5: off for the Hanka's area of it all, for the

1250
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:09,799
Speaker 5: framing of the scandal with the black sex worker, different

1251
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 5: things like that that make the movie not hold up

1252
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 5: as well as it could. But as we've discussed, there

1253
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 5: is so much the movie is doing right. It's a

1254
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 5: critique on traditional ideals of masculinity. It's a celebration of

1255
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 5: characters living their authentic selves. Because of that, I want

1256
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 5: to give it three and a half nipples, maybe even four,

1257
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 5: I don't know. I'm somewhere around there. Also worth mentioning

1258
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 5: the movie is rated R and it still was as

1259
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 5: much of a box office success as it was, because

1260
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 5: it's kind of rare for our rated movies to do

1261
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 5: quite so well at the box office. But why is

1262
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 5: it rated R? We ask? Sure, they say fuck a

1263
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 5: few times, but other than that, there's nothing that Warren

1264
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 5: it's an R rating about this movie. I'm speculating that

1265
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 5: it's because it does center a gay couple. Yeah, that

1266
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:10,560
Speaker 5: they're like, yuckie, oh, this is gonna.

1267
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:16,560
Speaker 3: Corrupt adults, contain adult.

1268
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: Themes like just fucking ridiculous.

1269
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 5: Yes, So all that to say, I'll land like on

1270
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 5: a three point seventy five and I'll give my nipples

1271
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 5: to Christine Baranski and Nathan Lane.

1272
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm going to go four. I think that this

1273
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 3: movie is has its flaws. I'm glad that we discussed them.

1274
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 3: I feel like they're not often discussed the context of

1275
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 3: this movie. And for all of its wonderful parts, it

1276
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 3: is still a movie that's ultimately written by white people

1277
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 3: in a Hollywood that did and does cater to white people.

1278
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 3: And so there's two glaring racist plot points that take

1279
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,520
Speaker 3: place with in this movie, But its legacy is undeniable.

1280
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 3: The performances are undeniable, Like Nathan Lane is I forget.

1281
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 3: I didn't have I couldn't find the quote that I

1282
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 3: found in my research.

1283
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 1: But there was. I believe it was like either Gene.

1284
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,720
Speaker 3: Hackman or Robin Williams that was like this movie was

1285
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 3: about just like getting out of Nathan Lane's way and

1286
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 3: just like giving him room to do it because it's

1287
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 3: like a career defining performance and he's had so many

1288
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:36,719
Speaker 3: sinse like he's just unbelievable and then randomly he's series. Yes,

1289
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 3: we just cited the same thing. Yes, we're big Dick's

1290
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 3: the musical heads on this show. But also I just

1291
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 3: think about like like he's just his range is incredible,

1292
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 3: He's awesome, and this is just like a perfect Nathan

1293
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 3: Lane role.

1294
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: And yeah, the legacy is wonderful.

1295
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 3: And speaking to what you were talking about earlier, Manuel,

1296
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 3: like we to this day don't regularly get movies that

1297
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:05,839
Speaker 3: center queer couples, queer parents.

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01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,000
Speaker 4: And the rating thing is very, very glaring.

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01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought it up.

1300
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 4: But even in.

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01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:13,759
Speaker 3: Spite of the rating, I mean, I have to imagine

1302
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 3: if this movie was rated PG thirteen, it would.

1303
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: Have done even better.

1304
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 3: And absolutely the fact that it became such a widely

1305
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:24,640
Speaker 3: beloved movie, and especially in today's climate, like this was

1306
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 3: a movie that heavily featured drag, that everyone watched, and

1307
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 3: so people have only gotten more mentally sick as time

1308
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:31,760
Speaker 3: goes on.

1309
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: And I love that for the world, and that's awesome. Yay.

1310
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:40,600
Speaker 3: So I'm going four nipples and I'm giving four nipples

1311
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 3: to Nathan Lane.

1312
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 4: If I had more, i'd give one to a Lane May,

1313
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 4: but I don't.

1314
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:46,599
Speaker 1: Have any more. So that's just kind of.

1315
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 5: The situation that's understandable. Menuel, how about you?

1316
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, I fall sort of on the three

1317
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 6: seven five for I think it's as we've discussed, it

1318
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 6: does so many things simultaneously that feel radical and traditional,

1319
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 6: but keeping them always so funny. I think the fact

1320
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:08,599
Speaker 6: that it does that with humor, without punching down, without

1321
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,799
Speaker 6: going for the low hanging fruit agador and you know, black.

1322
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:13,760
Speaker 7: Sex work or aside.

1323
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,719
Speaker 6: I think it's so it's so smart and it feels

1324
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 6: I watched it in twenty twenty four, and it still

1325
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 6: surprises me that this cup made in ninety six, that

1326
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 6: this was a hit in ninety six, that it had

1327
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 6: had the character actors that it had ninety six, that

1328
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 6: you know Nichols and May who you know. Nichols had

1329
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 6: been you know, making amazing movies for decades at this point,

1330
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 6: and you know he was able to sort of do this.

1331
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:36,640
Speaker 6: And I also love the Nathan Lenham at all. But

1332
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 6: also because this was an out gay actor at the

1333
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 6: heart of it, right, I think I think that's also

1334
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 6: it's a great showcase for a queer performer who has

1335
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 6: only proven with time that he deserves every and all

1336
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 6: flowers we throw at him.

1337
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:53,519
Speaker 7: So yeah, I would. I would also give my nipples

1338
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:53,840
Speaker 7: to him.

1339
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 5: Oh beautiful, Thank you so much for joining us. This

1340
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 5: has been such a treat. Comeback anytime time.

1341
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 7: Absolutely, this is a joy.

1342
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, thank you. Where can people follow you

1343
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,759
Speaker 5: on social media? Check out your writing? Also, we forgot

1344
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,879
Speaker 5: to mention that you penned an amazing piece on Rotten Tomatoes.

1345
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 5: I ever heard of it on this movie, so we'll link

1346
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,840
Speaker 5: that in the description of this episode. But yeah, where

1347
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 5: can people check out that and your other writing?

1348
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can find me on both Instagram and x

1349
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 6: formerly honest Twitter and it's at b Manuel so B

1350
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 6: M A n U E L.

1351
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 7: You'll find my writing there.

1352
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:41,560
Speaker 6: Also my recent book The Mail gazed on Hank's Hearthrops

1353
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 6: and what pop culture taught me about desiring men just

1354
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,759
Speaker 6: came out in paperbacks. If you're looking for a nice

1355
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 6: pool side or beachside read, I highly recommend it. It's

1356
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 6: all about men and desiring men and asking myself whether

1357
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 6: I want him, where do I want to be him?

1358
01:15:55,960 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 6: Which is a queer essentral queer concern of my also

1359
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:01,799
Speaker 6: have a lot of queer folks.

1360
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 7: But yeah, that's that's where you can find.

1361
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 5: Me amazing and you can find us on Instagram at

1362
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 5: Bechdel Cast. You can follow our Patreon aka Matreon at

1363
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 5: patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where we release two

1364
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 5: bonus episodes every month on a hilarious, amazing, brilliant genius

1365
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 5: theme that always makes so much sense, and that's five

1366
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 5: dollars a month. You can check out our merch at

1367
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 5: tea Public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast and grab

1368
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 5: lots of T shirts and pillows and buttons, all designed

1369
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 5: by Jamie. And with that, should we dress in drag

1370
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:46,440
Speaker 5: and run out a nightclub.

1371
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 7: To the tuner your family?

1372
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, yes, okay, see you there by bye. The

1373
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 5: Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Kaitlin

1374
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,840
Speaker 5: Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by

1375
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 5: Moe laboord our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan

1376
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 5: with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo and merch is

1377
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:15,600
Speaker 5: designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Assevedo.

1378
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:19,719
Speaker 5: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

1379
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:20,440
Speaker 5: Bechtelcast