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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Since Britney spears Is conservatorship ended last year, the singer

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Speaker 1: has since gotten married and released a banger new single

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Speaker 1: with Sir Elton John that is already becoming a late

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Speaker 1: contender for Song of the Summer, at least in my book.

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Speaker 1: This week, Brittany also released a twenty two minute, brutally

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Speaker 1: honest deep dive into her conservatorship to her official YouTube

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Speaker 1: channel and Twitter now. The clips have since been deleted,

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Speaker 1: but they are still available on fan sites. In it,

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Speaker 1: she gives new insights into what her life was like

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Speaker 1: before the conservatorship was terminated in November of last year.

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Speaker 1: She says that her father, Jamie Spears, wanted a complete

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Speaker 1: control over her life, saying he loved to control everything

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Speaker 1: I did. I remember the first day he said, I'm

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Speaker 1: Britney Spears and I'm calling the shots. She also weighed

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Speaker 1: in on the Free Brittney movement, saying the whole thing

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Speaker 1: that made it really confusing for me is these people

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Speaker 1: are on the street fighting for me, but my sister

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Speaker 1: and my mother aren't doing anything to me. It was

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Speaker 1: like they secretly liked me being the bad one, like

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Speaker 1: I was messed up and they just liked it that way. Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: why weren't they at my doorsteps saying, baby girl, let's

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Speaker 1: get in the car, let's go. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: main thing that hurt me. Now, Right after the conservatorship

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Speaker 1: was terminated back I sat down with Melissa Ryan, digital organizer,

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Speaker 1: CEO of Card Strategies and the founder of Control Right Delete,

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Speaker 1: a weekly newsletter covering the Internet, to discuss the fan

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Speaker 1: led Free Brittany movement as a successful digital organizing case study.

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Speaker 1: So let's listen. In almost fourteen years ago, a court

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Speaker 1: deemed pop icon Britney Spears unable to take care of herself,

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Speaker 1: placing her in a conservatorship that stripped her of control

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Speaker 1: of nearly every aspect of her life, including her finances,

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Speaker 1: her ability to drive a car, or use an a

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Speaker 1: t M, or make decisions about her own body. Last month,

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Speaker 1: a judge rule to end that conservatorship that Brittany and

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Speaker 1: her fans have long maintained was abusive and traumatic. Brittany

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Speaker 1: spoke up against the conservatorship to a judge. Here's what

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Speaker 1: she had to say, I truly believe this conservatorship is abusive,

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Speaker 1: and then we can sit here all day and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: conservatorships are here to help people. Britney's released from the

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Speaker 1: conservatorship was sparked in part by the Free Britney movement,

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Speaker 1: spearheaded by Britney super fan Megan Radford. The movement began

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Speaker 1: in two thousand nine and aimed to draw attention to

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Speaker 1: the singer's conservatorship. Largely organized online, the movement was made

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Speaker 1: up of fans and advocates from all over the world

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Speaker 1: pushing to end what they said was a predatory conservatorship,

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Speaker 1: including a change dot organ petition for Brittney's right to

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Speaker 1: hire her own lawyer that got over two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thou signatures. In Brittany's first Instagram post after her

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Speaker 1: conservatorship was voided, she wrote, the Free Brittany Movement, you

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Speaker 1: guys rock. Honestly, my voice was muted and threatened for

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Speaker 1: so long and I wasn't able to speak up or

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Speaker 1: say anything. I honestly think you guys saved my life

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Speaker 1: in a way. But even though Free Britney was a

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Speaker 1: pretty successful movement largely organized online, it hasn't really gotten

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Speaker 1: the same kind of attention as other online movements. I

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Speaker 1: sat down with Melissa Ryan, friend of the show, online

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Speaker 1: organizing expert and CEO and editor of Control all Right Delete,

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Speaker 1: a popular newsletter dissecting culture, extremism, technology and the Internet. Melissa,

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Speaker 1: you have been covering and following the Free Britney movement

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Speaker 1: for a while, and I think that you have been

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Speaker 1: covering it with a seriousness that I think it took

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Speaker 1: a while for other folks to get to what initially

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Speaker 1: attracted you to to this movement, Like, why were you

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Speaker 1: following it so seriously? Well? I started, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think I was aware of it for a while, and

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Speaker 1: I thought of it just sort of like, oh, a

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Speaker 1: thing that music fans are doing and is somewhat interesting.

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Speaker 1: But the New York Times documentary was really it was

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Speaker 1: staggering to me both that this had been going on

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Speaker 1: so long that they were able to get folks on,

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Speaker 1: so many folks on the record, but also that this

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Speaker 1: online movement had been growing and building for some time

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Speaker 1: and wasn't necessarily being taken seriously. Um and there was

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Speaker 1: you know, they were clearly able to generate a lot

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Speaker 1: of press stories. They were getting attention from other celebrities,

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Speaker 1: but there just wasn't much sort of conversation among the

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Speaker 1: serious people who love to talk about digital and tech things. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then when Spears did her first testimony in court,

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Speaker 1: a couple of things became obvious. One was her fans

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Speaker 1: had clearly you know, this movement, and her fans had

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Speaker 1: clearly been part of what gave her the courage to

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Speaker 1: speak up, uh and to demand to be heard in

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Speaker 1: a public forum. But two, that the organizing had had worked. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that these folks, you know, whatever they were trying to get,

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Speaker 1: they had. They had scored just a huge win because

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Speaker 1: none of this I think would have happened without their

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Speaker 1: years and years of of rallying online. Um. And still

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Speaker 1: they were sort of treated in the press like, oh,

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Speaker 1: these conspiracy theorist fans or these folks that have you know,

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Speaker 1: no life, And it was very disconcerting because, uh, this

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Speaker 1: was a huge win. I mean, you and I both

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Speaker 1: work in politics. You don't get wins like this like

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Speaker 1: they got. Absolutely. I mean I really kind of see

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Speaker 1: it as one of those classic stories that we cover

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Speaker 1: a lot on this show, or at first people are

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Speaker 1: dismissed as you know, oh they're crazy, they don't know

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Speaker 1: what they're talking about, all of that, and then they're

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Speaker 1: kind of proven right, um. And I feel like the

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Speaker 1: Free Brittany movement is one of those stories where the

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Speaker 1: most vocal folks were dismissed. Why do you think that is? Like,

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Speaker 1: why was it so easy to discount these people? I

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Speaker 1: think because a lot of her fans were women, and

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Speaker 1: I think because a lot of her fans were lgbt

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Speaker 1: Q um, and I think there was the perception that

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were very young, because we think

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Speaker 1: of music fans being young. Although you know, Brittany Britain

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Speaker 1: is forty now where I think she turned forty last week,

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Speaker 1: so and stands to reason that her fans are probably

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Speaker 1: not as you know, I doubt there are many teenagers

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Speaker 1: that are listening to to Britney Spears, except in the

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Speaker 1: context of like their parents nine D station. Maybe I

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Speaker 1: could be wrong. I do think there's this perception that

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Speaker 1: the people who are rallying around her and who are

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Speaker 1: really intensely interested in her are just teeny boppers online.

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Speaker 1: And I think that speaks to how we belittle and

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Speaker 1: cast aside people who are marginalized as you know, just

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Speaker 1: teenagers online or just a bunch of women collecting online,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to this movement that really was lifting up

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Speaker 1: questions about you know, disability justice, reproductive justice. I see

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Speaker 1: this story as hitting so many intersections of the work

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Speaker 1: that you and I do as progressive organizers, you know,

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Speaker 1: lifting up you know, if somebody like Britney Spears can

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Speaker 1: be mistreated in this way, what does that say for

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Speaker 1: other people who might have disabilities? What does it say

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Speaker 1: for other folks who want body autonomy and control over

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Speaker 1: the reproductive choices? Um? You know that that the second

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Speaker 1: New York Times documentary that came out about Britney Spears, Um,

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Speaker 1: for me, was a real text story about the surveillance

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Speaker 1: apparatus that controlled her in her home. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's really fascinating how it took kind of a

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Speaker 1: while for folks to get on board with talking about

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Speaker 1: this story, um in a way that really highlighted those

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Speaker 1: important issues. Yeah. I think it would be interesting to

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Speaker 1: dig into how folks who participated in this at various levels,

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Speaker 1: how her story resonated with them, whether it was the

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Speaker 1: conservative ship angle, whether it was the reproductive freedom angle,

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Speaker 1: whether it was the way that women so often get dismissed,

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Speaker 1: or there's when women get so much, you know, access

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Speaker 1: to capital and power, they're almost always efforts to try

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Speaker 1: to take it away from them. Because I am guessing

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Speaker 1: for a lot of folks, it's not just that they

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Speaker 1: like Britney Spears music, but they saw something or they

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Speaker 1: related to something that was happening. In twenty nineteen, Brittney's Graham,

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Speaker 1: a podcast dedicated to deep dives and close readings into

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Speaker 1: Britney Spears instagram posts, received a voicemail from a pair

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Speaker 1: legal who said he was connected to Britney's Conservatorship. According

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Speaker 1: to him, Brittany was forced into a mental health facility

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Speaker 1: against her will. This created a firestorm of new support

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Speaker 1: for ending the conservatorship. These you know, women who had

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Speaker 1: started this podcast devoted to to Britney's Instagram, which I

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Speaker 1: totally get. I now follow Britney's Instagram and I love

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Speaker 1: that it's like a combination of her dancing and middle

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Speaker 1: aged mom memes. I I don't know, I just I

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Speaker 1: spend so much time on Brittney's Instagram. Now it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Just if we're gonna have that little tangent like I

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Speaker 1: wish I had known about it years ago. Um, but

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Speaker 1: you know, and that they were you know, because they

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Speaker 1: had this podcast. You know, someone trusted them enough to

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Speaker 1: to leave them this voice meal saying, you know, I

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Speaker 1: used to work for this law firm and something that's

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Speaker 1: happening to her isn't right. Um. And just that they

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Speaker 1: were able to build that much trust with people who

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Speaker 1: were in her orbit just by you know, being fans

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Speaker 1: and the content they were creating. It's fascinating to me,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And I mean, I'm I've been following

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Speaker 1: her on Instagram for a while and I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love her spinning dance moves, love it. And even

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Speaker 1: after the conservatorship has been lifted, just she's using her

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Speaker 1: Instagram to document these little things that I take for granted,

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Speaker 1: Like she made a post about getting to have an

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Speaker 1: iPad and how that how free that made her feel.

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Speaker 1: And I think I think it does an interesting job

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Speaker 1: of illustrating what, you know, what the abuse of people

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Speaker 1: who have disabilities can look like, where it's like the

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Speaker 1: little things that she didn't get to have access to,

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Speaker 1: didn't get to just be able to be on her

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Speaker 1: iPad and I think you can really put a a

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Speaker 1: face or an image on these issues or withdraw cash

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Speaker 1: from an A t M. That was one of them

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Speaker 1: where she talked about being able to get three from

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Speaker 1: an A t M. And it's just sort of you're

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Speaker 1: so happy that she has that now, but it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my god, thirteen years of not being able to live

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Speaker 1: as an adult while you were earning the money to

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Speaker 1: pay all of your cat Let's say a quick break

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Speaker 1: at our Back in the final days of Britney Spears's conservatorship,

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Speaker 1: something strange started to happen. Extremist right wing lawmakers like

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Speaker 1: Florida Congressional Representative Matt gets started speaking out on her behalf.

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Speaker 1: Matt gets Pull, in the middle of an ongoing sex

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Speaker 1: trafficking investigation, spoke at an in person Free Britney rally.

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Speaker 1: I really didn't understand what was happening, but Melissa says,

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Speaker 1: extremists co opting cultural moments for their own agendas is

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Speaker 1: nothing new. One of the things that you really did

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Speaker 1: a nice style of pointing out, is this weird thing

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Speaker 1: that happened where at the height of the Free Britney movement,

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Speaker 1: when there was all this momentum we saw all of

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Speaker 1: these right wing far right extremists controls. I guess I

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Speaker 1: would say co opting it. There was this time where

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Speaker 1: Matt gets was speaking at a Free Britney a rapidly

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Speaker 1: and rally. What do you like, what do you think

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Speaker 1: was going on with that? Like? What was happening? That

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Speaker 1: was something I were seeing that in my new speed

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Speaker 1: and being like my brain can't even comprehend what this is.

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Speaker 1: I need to just move on, Like what what was that?

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Speaker 1: I mean? I think I tend to think of Matt

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Speaker 1: Gates as a professional troll and sometimes congressman, Like once

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Speaker 1: in a while he shows up to work at Congress,

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Speaker 1: but most of the time he seems to be like

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Speaker 1: where can I get the most attention for myself? Which

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Speaker 1: is why he like goes to Wyoming to campaign against

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Speaker 1: wiz Cheney and uh, you know, the Free Brittany rally.

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Speaker 1: And so I think he just saw a moment and

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Speaker 1: was like, how can I exploit it to get attention

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Speaker 1: for myself? Um? And I think more broadly, that's sort

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Speaker 1: of what the far right does. They don't really build culture.

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Speaker 1: They steal culture. Um. You know, It's like you see

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Speaker 1: they try to appropriate everything from Peppe the Frog from

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Speaker 1: you see them with Karen and with free Brittany, they

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Speaker 1: saw an opportunity. Um. And one of the most amusing

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Speaker 1: things to me was when her her lawyer, Um, we

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Speaker 1: should definitely talk about the lawyer too, because that guy

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Speaker 1: just looks like Atticus Finch, Like they just pulled him

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Speaker 1: out of Central Casting. But when her lawyer was talking

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Speaker 1: after the conservatorship ended, and he very specifically said, everyone

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Speaker 1: from the far right to the left is supporting Brittany now.

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Speaker 1: And I do appreciate how her lawyer like took advantage

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Speaker 1: of the fact that, you know, everybody and their mother

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Speaker 1: was sort of glomming onto his client. Yeah. Do you

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Speaker 1: do you think that we're gonna see more of that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing? Like? Is that? Is that a common

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Speaker 1: tactic of extremists just whatever conversation is happening. How can

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Speaker 1: I jump into that conversation and co opted for my own,

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Speaker 1: you know, my own fucked up agenda. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: you see it a lot. And again, like they're these books,

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Speaker 1: especially ones who are elected too. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm especially obsessed with like these extremists who have managed

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Speaker 1: to get themselves elected to office. They don't really have

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Speaker 1: any interest in serving their constituencies. They really are like

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Speaker 1: constantly auditioning for Fox News for Trump to try to

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Speaker 1: create viral moments for themselves. So, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green was another one who all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden cared about free Brittaney. Um. There was a congressman

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina who did, um, a free Britney bill

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Speaker 1: about reproductive amount not being able to force someone to

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Speaker 1: have birth control, probably not realizing that, I know, I know,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, dude, you're so close, so close,

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Speaker 1: you have no idea. Um, But yeah, I mean you're

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Speaker 1: gonna see a lot of that with pop culture molds,

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Speaker 1: and we've been seeing it. I mean, how many movies

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Speaker 1: that star women and people of color have the right

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Speaker 1: freaked out about? Um? You know you see that with

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Speaker 1: with so much culture, and again, like they're they're too

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Speaker 1: lazy and too not creative to create their own cultures,

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Speaker 1: so when it comes to culture, like they're always going

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Speaker 1: to try to steal it. Yeah. That's something I've really

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Speaker 1: been stuck on, is the way that pop culture and

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Speaker 1: things that we used to think of as like you know, diversions,

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Speaker 1: how that is kind of become a new battle for

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Speaker 1: because I won't say new battlefield, but just another battlefield

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Speaker 1: to have these wars play out on. And then they

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Speaker 1: have people try to make a name for themselves, Like

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Speaker 1: I think about the whole controversy around the movie Cuties,

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Speaker 1: things like that, where we're no longer having conversations about

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Speaker 1: the film, the art, whatever. It's just a proxy for

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Speaker 1: people to co opt this conversation and to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the only chatter around it is in bad faith.

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Speaker 1: I think there's such an anger on the right because culturally,

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Speaker 1: you know, politically and in terms of raw political power,

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Speaker 1: they are winning. They're winning big time. I don't think

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Speaker 1: there would be any debate there. But in terms of

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Speaker 1: pop culture they're losing, I think worse than they've ever lost.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at uh, you know, all

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Speaker 1: of these entertainment conglomerates, they're working hard to have more

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Speaker 1: diverse voices. You're seeing more writers of color, more casts

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Speaker 1: of color. You know, we're not where we need to be,

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Speaker 1: but it's certainly better than you know when you and

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Speaker 1: I were young people, and they're just not able to

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Speaker 1: create the same sort of pop culture moments the way

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Speaker 1: that they have been with, Like if you think back

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Speaker 1: to like the Super Bowl with Janna Jackson, if you

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Speaker 1: think the things that the Parent Television Council would get

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Speaker 1: upset about, you know, it's just very hard to get

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Speaker 1: folks to care. And Corporate America has figured out, for

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Speaker 1: better or worse, there's good advantage this. But they have

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Speaker 1: figured out that more diversity and more inclusion makes them

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Speaker 1: more money because they're reaching more audiences. So the right

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Speaker 1: is just not going to have that mass media power

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Speaker 1: that they have been used to having, and they don't

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Speaker 1: have the ability to influence conversation through mass media the

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Speaker 1: way they have in the past. That's such an interesting point.

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Speaker 1: I could see a lot of folks on the right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that the that the understandable reaction to that is rage, Like, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't have the influence in this space I used to,

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Speaker 1: so I'm going to rail against it or co opted

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Speaker 1: if I can. It's all so disingenuous, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: as you said, it's not it's not creating culture. It's not.

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Speaker 1: It's not creating culture to co opt another movement. It's

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Speaker 1: not creating culture to you know, turn a piece of

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Speaker 1: film or a piece of art or a television show

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Speaker 1: into a proxy war for your rage to play out

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Speaker 1: in It's it's in the absence of creating culture. I

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Speaker 1: feel this is all they have. Yeah, kind of sad

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Speaker 1: when you put it that way. It is sad, and

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Speaker 1: I actually don't think we recognize enough just how badly

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Speaker 1: the right is losing the culture war. And again it's

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Speaker 1: because they have so much power politically. But it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting disconnect and it'll be interesting to see how it

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Speaker 1: plays out. Yeah. So, I guess one of my last

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Speaker 1: questions for you is, as an online organizer and somebody

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Speaker 1: who cares about the Internet, are there takeaways that you

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Speaker 1: see that we can glean from this? You know? Pretty

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Speaker 1: I would say successful Free Brittany online organizing moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you can't underestimate the power of

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Speaker 1: internet movements to create not just political but cultural change. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, what we've we talked about how we're

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Speaker 1: going to continue to see the right like try and

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Speaker 1: fail to co opt things like this. Um. But mostly

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Speaker 1: I just hope that I want to see what these

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Speaker 1: folks who were involved in Free Brittany do next. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot of talk when I've seen quotes in

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Speaker 1: the press of we're going to get more involved in

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Speaker 1: getting the conservatorship law changed and reproductive rights, So it'll

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Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see what the hard core folks

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Speaker 1: do around it. UM. And then I'm also I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of interested to you know, Britney Spears is someone who

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Speaker 1: has had a career of not being political, like I

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Speaker 1: think you you know, she's from a red state. She

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Speaker 1: uh is very careful I think, and how always and

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Speaker 1: how she talks about politics and and and issues like,

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Speaker 1: I think she's been very smart about that in her career.

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Speaker 1: So it'll be interesting to see what she ends up

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Speaker 1: doing if she wants to be UM an advocate for

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Speaker 1: disability rights or for women's right. She may not want to,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, she has every right to just

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Speaker 1: live her life and not be the leader of a movement,

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Speaker 1: but if she wants to do more with it, she

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Speaker 1: clearly has a community that's ready to engage with her,

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Speaker 1: so that'll be interesting as well. Yeah, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: really interesting to see. And I'm with you. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm one of those people that if there's one thing

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Speaker 1: I believe in, it is the power of women and

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ folks and people of color who are fired up

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Speaker 1: and have access to the Internet and social media, like

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Speaker 1: big things are possible things. I never there's so many

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Speaker 1: things in a million years, I would have never thought

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Speaker 1: I would see. But because somebody had the Internet, they

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Speaker 1: were able to make it happen that somebody had the

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Speaker 1: Internet and a voice. And I think this is a

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Speaker 1: great example of the power of that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: especially now and we're all kind of living our lives

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Speaker 1: online more and more because of COVID. I think it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be an exciting time to see how that bears out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So where can folks keep up with all the amazing

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Speaker 1: work that you're doing, Melissa Sure well, I am on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Melissa Ryan Um. I also have uh my

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Speaker 1: newsletter control all Right Delete, which is free and comes

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Speaker 1: out every Sunday. You can either find that in my

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Speaker 1: Twitter bio or you can go to control all Right

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Speaker 1: Delete dot com. Control all Right Delete is the most

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Speaker 1: I mean, I get so many newsletters, it's like the

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Speaker 1: most useful newsletter. It's like, if I want to know

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Speaker 1: what's happening on the Internet, and like what I should know,

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Speaker 1: It's the most musicful newsletter. So folks should definitely sign up.

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Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No

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Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

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Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amata was

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Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Toad. If you

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