WEBVTT - Ep 130 Cocoliztli: We do love a salty dish 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.680 On the first day of August fifteen seventy six, Coco 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:09.320 Litsli began extremely strongly in Tekemachalco. It could not be resisted. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:14.520 For this reason, many people died, young people, married people, 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.759 old people, men and women and children. In two or 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:23.120 three days. They died of hemorrhage. Blood emerged from their noses, 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:27.200 from the ears, from the eyes, from the anus, and 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.760 women bled between their legs. And for us men, blood 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.840 emerged from our members. Others died from diarrhea, which took 0:00:34.880 --> 0:01:26.440 them suddenly. They died quickly from this awful Oh yeah, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:33.120 it's this episode is loaded with quotes, Karen. That particular 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.560 quote was from an anonymous Nahua, author of the anal 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:43.959 state Techamachalco from the epidemic of Coco Leeseley in fifteen 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:49.760 seventy six. Okay, hi, I'm Aaron Welsh. 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:51.200 And I'm Erin Allman Updyke. 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.120 And this is this podcast will kill. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:57.480 You And today we are doing a medical mystery. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:03.400 We are. It's a first one in many episodes. It's 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:08.480 been the years, yeah, I think definitely over fifty episodes. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.359 The last one was Sweating Sickness. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.920 Sweating Sickness, yep yeah, no, no, dancing Pike. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.079 I don't know. I don't know, could be either, It's 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.680 one of those. But yeah, this has been on our 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.480 list for a while, which I feel like we say 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.560 about every topic. But I'm really excited that we're covering 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.000 it because there is so much to get into. And wow, 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.840 like once I started pulling the string on this, I 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.840 just couldn't stop. 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.640 Like a sweater just came all the way unraveled. 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:43.360 Yep, I can't wait. 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:50.720 I am thrilled because so listeners, you may recall or 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:52.640 you may not, because again it's been a number of years. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.320 We are going to do this episode in a different way, 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.040 and the way that Aaron and I have researched for 0:02:58.160 --> 0:02:59.840 this episode is very different than. 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:00.480 Are you usual. 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:09.560 I know nothing about this story about Coco Elitesley at all, 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:15.200 but I have been given a list of contenders of 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:21.639 possible pathogens that may have caused this, and then we're 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.600 going to try and solve it, you know, in just 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.639 like the next hour and a half. Medical mystery that's 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.680 been going on for hundreds of years. 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.919 I mean, I hope that people aren't looking for full 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.080 resolution like I always do when I watch Unsolved mysteries, 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:38.600 and then at the end, I'm upset like that, what 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.720 a you solved in the name of the show. But 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.120 so brace yourselves. You'll know a lot more and maybe 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.760 be able to come to some conclusions yourself. But yeah, 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.600 this will be an unsolved mystery at the beginning, middle, 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:56.040 and end. 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.640 I can't wait. I'm really excited about it and to 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.960 get us started. I believe that it's quarantining time. 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.920 It certainly is. What are we drinking this week? 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.360 It's Anyone's Guess. That's the name of the name of it. 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.920 Thanks to John for that title. Appreciate it so creative 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.560 and in It's Anyone's guess. It's delicious, and it's got 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.640 a lot of ingredients, which is you know, I think 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.400 sometimes can be fun. It's got some dark rum, it's 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:33.760 got pineapple juice, orange juice, lemon juice and passion fruit juice, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.320 tropical and lots of juices. Yeah, it's delicious. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.400 We'll post a full recipe for that quarantine as well 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.880 as the non alcoholic and equally delicious plus Ebrita on 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.039 our website, This podcast weekili dot com and our social media. 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.960 We certainly will. On our website you can find all 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.160 sorts of things, such as transcripts, links to bookshop dot 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:02.200 org and goodreads lists. You can find music by Bloodmobile merch. 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.600 We've got some cool new merch coming out for you. 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.320 You know. There's more stuff sources for our episodes. 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.040 That's enough, right, it's a lot. There's a lot there. 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:12.040 Check it out O this podcast. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:13.040 Weicill you dot com. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.240 Can we get started? Please please? 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.479 I can't wait, all right, primed to take notes while 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:20.919 we talk. I'm so excited. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.000 Let's just take a quick break and then we can 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:24.880 get right to it. 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:50.760 Okay. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.320 In the year fifteen eighty four, seventy five years after 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.880 Hernando Cortes first arrived in what is now Mexico, Antonio 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:05.080 Sioux dad Reale and Frey Alonzo Ponce, both Spanish, traveled 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.840 through much of Mexico and wrote what they saw of 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:14.440 this once densely populated and vibrant land. Quote in times 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.760 past that town had a large population, according to the 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.520 older people, and now it just seems like ruins of houses, 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:23.640 and for the many fruit trees there are in the 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.920 surroundings among which the Indians usually have their towns, especially 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.680 being in the hot lands like it is, but with 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.240 the coco Litli. There was such a very large pestilence 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.240 and mortality in that land that everything was destroyed and 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:44.640 now there are scarcely two hundred inhabitants whoa yeah. And 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.960 while they name drop cocolitle specifically there, it was far 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.800 from the only factor in the tremendous population losses and 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:58.480 cultural devastation experienced by indigenous populations in Mexico following first 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:03.160 contact with European colonizers in the sixteenth century. And if 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.440 you'll just allow me to get on a soapbox for 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:09.360 a little bit. Even though the focus of today's episode 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.600 is on just one of those factors, cocoliteslei, which we'll 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.680 spend a lot more time about, I don't want to 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.480 lose sight of that fact that this cultural and population 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:27.400 devastation was multifactorial. That we can't take this disease cocolitsli, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.560 or these epidemics out of their historical context without considering 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.840 everything else that was going on at the time. Retrospective 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.600 diagnosis is a tricky enough business as it is, and 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.920 ignoring all of the social and political factors that played 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.640 a role in the spread of disease, it's only going 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.000 to further limit our ability to say anything about whether 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:54.360 Cokolitsli was rodent associated or waterborn. For way too long, 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:59.640 many historians have over emphasized the effects that pathogens alone 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.400 had on the population declines of indigenous peoples living in 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:08.480 the America's following European contact. The concept of quote unquote 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.120 virgin soil epidemics, as in the idea that these pathogens 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.760 that Europeans were more acquainted with and brought with them 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.040 to the New World, that these pathogens were more devastating 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:27.000 to immunologically naive populations. This concept has been overly used 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:33.439 in the construction of these like Eurocentric Jared diamond esque histories, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.880 where the strong conquered the weak and took what was 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:43.560 rightfully theirs because nature i e. Pathogens determined that they 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:44.880 were the victors. Right. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:46.240 No, oh, no no. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.760 Focusing on the role that germs alone played in mass 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:55.120 mortality events in the Americas ignores the decisions that European 0:08:55.200 --> 0:09:00.920 colonizers made to subjugate and oppress the indigenous populations, forced 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:06.839 labor overburdensome taxation, complete upheaval of everyday life, and repression 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:13.800 of traditional cultural practices. Germs weren't acting alone here in 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.480 more ways than one, Like, yes, there were devastating smallpox 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:22.640 epidemics that cannot be ignored, that cannot be debated, and yes, 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:27.200 there were also horrific measles outbreaks and influenza epidemics and 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.040 so one and so forth. But it's not like in 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.120 those like eighties action movies where the bad guys take 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:39.000 turns fighting the one good guy. It's like multiple pathogens 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.040 were all circulating at the same time, all the bad 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.800 guys were fighting all at once. And this isn't to 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:50.320 downplay the enormous mortality rates that we see during these epidemics, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.120 upwards of sixty to eighty percent of the entire population 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.520 in some cases, but it's just to try to present 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.480 a more nuanced view you of where those numbers, those 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:07.839 mortality rates might be coming from. Death from disease absolutely 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:13.720 maybe increased by malnutrition or coinfection with another pathogen, or 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.560 weakened health from forced labor or fewer people to care 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:22.360 for the sick, like societal collapse. The layers of protection 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.200 from getting sick or dying from illness in many cases 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.719 had been entirely stripped away, and I think sometimes that 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:34.440 can get lost in looking at these epidemics from like 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:40.960 a purely biological microbiological epidemiological focus, I guess, and I 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.440 think this is especially important to remember when we're trying 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.000 to go through and guess which pathogen might be responsible 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.720 for Coco litesle and be like, wow, there's no known 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.240 pathogen that causes such high mortality rates. Like well, of course, 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:01.560 because it's not just one loan pathogen. But anyway, keeping 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.800 all that in mind, LAO, let's turn to Coco Leathsley. 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:12.280 What were the Coco Leitsli epidemics? In short, they were 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.680 a series of epidemics of undetermined cause that swept through 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.920 much of Mexico and the rest of meso America during 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:26.040 the sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth, and possibly even the nineteenth centuries. Huh. 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:30.520 At least thirteen distinct epidemics according to one paper I read. 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.240 But today I'm only going to be focusing on the 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:39.520 two most devastating Coco Leathsley epidemics, one that began in 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.520 fifteen forty five and the other in fifteen seventy six, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.640 since they have the most documentation and had the most 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:54.400 apparently impact on the population. But to better understand how 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.360 these epidemics happened when they did and the impact they had. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:03.080 Let's do a little bit stage setting. In fifteen nineteen, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:08.160 the Spanish conquistador Hernando Cortes and his crew landed in Mexico, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.240 where they claimed the land for the Spanish crown and 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.800 proceeded to travel inland until they reached toto che Lan, 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.320 the massive capital of the Aztec Empire, or specifically the 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.240 Mashka people. Aztec is kind of a political term I 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.040 learned that means really just the three tribes that controlled 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.160 a lot of Mexico at the time, and one of 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.720 these tribes, the most powerful, was the Meshika. Anyway, shortly 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.280 after arriving in to notche Chielan and being showered with 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:43.120 please go away gifts of silver and gold and textiles, 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.800 the Spanish then took the Meshika emperor of the city 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.040 as prisoner, Montezuma for a year until he was killed. 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.960 And skipping over a whole lot of history here, that 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.720 really sort of kicked off the beginning of Spanish colonial 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.800 rule in Mexico. Like that is not even beginning to 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.720 get into that's not even surface level. There's so much 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:12.840 more history there. But basically things changed very quickly in 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:19.679 that Aztec Empire, from political organization to wealth distribution, cultural 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:25.000 practices to daily life. Agriculture shifted under Spanish rule as 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:31.760 domestic animals were introduced and the dominant crops switched from maize, squash, amorants, beans, 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.280 and peppers to wheat so that the Spanish could make 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.920 European style bread. Lakes were drained to prevent flooding or 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:44.280 to provide more arable land for farming. Taxation or tributes 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:50.199 grew enormously in demand, pretty much beyond anyone's means, and 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.480 as a result, nutrition really suffered, especially since there were 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.920 a series of droughts throughout the sixteenth century that we'll 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.520 talk maybe a little bit more about later on. Many 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.160 indigenous people were enslaved or forced to do labor, or 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:11.480 displaced from their homes and land. Even clothing changed, apparently 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.280 with an emphasis on European style clothing, along with fewer baths, 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.400 since it was the Spanish belief at the time that 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:25.720 bathing daily was bad for your health. Now, all of 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.840 these changes did not take place everywhere or at the 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:34.360 same time throughout Mesoamerica, but life certainly changed for everyone, 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.080 and I came across a paper about Coco Lethsley by 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:42.520 mar and Kirakoff from two thousand, where the authors wrote that, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.080 quote certainly, the policies of the Spanish colonial regime were 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.600 harsh in many ways, but no more so than those 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:55.000 of the Aztec imperial regime had been end quote I 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.400 mean wrong, and I think to claim that is to 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.320 kind of undermine the drastic effects that the Spanish regime 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:09.360 had on life for indigenous peoples. So anyway, when Cortes 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.240 and his crew landed in fifteen nineteen, Mexico was home 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.480 to a population of around twenty two million people, and 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.440 the major city, ten Ochtreetlan had approximately two hundred and 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.800 fifty thousand to three hundred thousand occupants, which was five 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:30.000 times the size of London at the same time. Oh wow, 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:35.720 with an incredibly intricately connected society. But within the century, 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:40.840 millions upon millions of people would be dead from a 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.080 combination of disease and the major upheaval of Spanish rule. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.840 And the first disease to make itself felt with smallpox, 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.280 which began to spread in fifteen twenty, only a year 0:15:53.440 --> 0:16:00.600 after Cortes arrived. Eight million people died during the smallpox epidemic. Oh, 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.240 out of a population of twenty two million. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.560 Yeah, that's. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:07.120 Unfathomable. 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:07.440 Yep. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.960 And again this was not just from smallpox alone, but 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:18.680 also from the general collapse of their society. Measles epidemic, typhus, influenza, 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:24.680 and other diseases all followed, described by witnesses as distinct diseases, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.200 even though they may co occur. And although the fifteen 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:34.240 twenty smallpox epidemic has probably received more attention historically because 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.040 of how it affected the transition of power from Aztec 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.520 to Spanish rule, the Coco Leesle epidemics that followed were 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:46.160 no less terrifying or devastating. So finally getting to Coco 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:51.280 Ltsley in fifteen forty five, Coco Lethsley struck for seemingly 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.400 the first time. Over a dozen early Spanish and indigenous 0:16:55.400 --> 0:17:00.080 contemporary accounts describe a deadly disease that swept through Mexico 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:05.280 and the rest of meso America. Bernardino des Sahagoon, Franciscan 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.880 scholar who witnessed this epidemic, wrote, quote, in the year 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:14.120 fifteen forty five, there was a huge and universal pestilence 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.280 where in all of New Spain most of the people 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.520 who lived there died. At the time of this pestilence. 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.719 I was in Mexico City, in the part of tlate Loco, 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.160 and I buried more than ten thousand bodies. And at 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.879 the end of the pestilence, I became ill and almost 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:37.200 died end quote hm. Importantly, Sahogoon also lived to see 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.080 the second epidemic of Cocolitsli in fifteen seventy six, which 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.879 he described as being very similar to the one in 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.679 fifteen forty five, and he ultimately died in a third 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.440 Cocolitsi epidemic in fifteen ninety. 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.200 Okay, okay, yeah. 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:59.640 The symptoms of the illness were described as quote acute 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.480 onset of fever, vertigo, and severe headache, followed by bleeding 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.760 from the nose, ears, and mouth. It was accompanied by 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:12.159 jaundice and severe abdominal pain and thoracic pain, as well 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.679 as acute neurological manifestations end quote. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.200 I'm I'm listening so intently. 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.040 I can hear you typing. I love it. 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:22.359 I know. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.919 I'm sorry I doesn't pick up in the mic, but 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:32.080 I'm taking notes. Fever, verdio, headache, bleeding, okay, jaundice, okay, And. 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.640 We can go over all of this at the end. 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:36.040 Oh we will also. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.200 Yeah. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.399 In general, the duration of the disease was described as short, 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.959 about three to four days okay, and was said to 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.639 have mainly affected the indigenous population. However, sources vary on 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.120 that point, which is maybe something that we'll get into 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.680 later when going through the possible pathogens. Children and young 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.399 adults were said to be the most affected, although again 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.720 sort of sources are not entirely consistent on this point, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.639 but this is supported by evidence from burial grounds in 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:14.720 southern Mexico where the Mishtek peoples lived, and these burial 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:19.480 grounds show that a young people were disproportionately buried and 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:24.000 b bodies were stacked vertically, suggesting that the deaths happen 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.920 too quickly for individual graves to be dug which is 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:34.159 the norm. So definitely like this is considered an epidemic graveyard. 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:35.320 Okay, okay. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.679 And the bleeding seems like a key feature of this 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.400 disease since it shows up in many of the contemporary 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:47.879 illustrations of the epidemic. So one features a man in 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.440 a full body rash as blood or vomit flows from 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.840 his face, and others also feature bleeding from the face, 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.720 and written descriptions also mention in the blood quote a 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.760 pestilence in which blood poured from the nose end quote. 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:10.840 And someone who was writing about the fifteen forty five 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:17.280 Cocleaedsli epidemic like sixty years after it happened, wrote that 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:21.120 quote blood flowed from the mouth, eyes, nose, and anus 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.000 end quote of all people poor and noble alike, and 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:29.119 that the bodies were eaten by dogs and coyotes. Okay, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.240 I think just like emphasizing the speed with which this 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:38.399 killed and how many people are killed. Another Franciscan friar 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:42.000 and eyewitness to both the fifteen forty five and fifteen 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:47.359 seventy six coco Leedes epidemics used the term pujamiento de sangre, 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:53.960 meaning abundant bleeding or full bloodiness, and said it was 0:20:54.080 --> 0:21:00.920 characterized by blood fevers. Notably, though, this same author used 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.200 the Spanish word for Typhus Tabardillo for the fifteen seventy 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:09.000 six epidemic, and remember he saw both of them. But 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:14.520 in general, this fifteen forty five Cocolitsi epidemic was described 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:19.760 by most eyewitnesses as distinct from other European introduced diseases 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:27.880 including smallpox, measles epidemic, typhus, pertussis, and malaria. So in total, 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:34.280 an estimated five to fifteen million people died, said to 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.040 be about eighty percent of the indigenous population. 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.560 Is that in these two outbreaks combined or just in 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.320 the fifteen forty five outbreak. 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.320 Just fifteen forty five? Holy uh huh. Yeah, there's a 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:48.560 lot more detail on the fifteen seventy six one, so 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:52.560 we'll get into that one in a second. Oh my, yeah, 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.760 eighty percent is what most estimates say, eighty percent of 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:00.000 the indigenous population at the time. 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.480 Yep, okay, I'm I'm I want to ask a million questions, 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.080 but I want I feel like you're going to answer them. 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.440 It's possible, but it's also possible that I won't at all. 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.680 But yeah, this this fifteen forty five epidemic lasted. It's 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.600 it's kind of unclear. It probably varied from region to region, 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.440 but it seems like I've read one and a half 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.080 years to four years as the total length of time, 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:30.120 more often four years. 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:33.160 And that's okay, So like from fifteen forty five till 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:37.080 fifteen forty nine, basically, yeah, so over that time period, 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:43.280 eighty percent of the population died presumably from this or 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.520 related to it, right for you know, there's co morbid 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:47.320 et cetera. 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.320 Co morbid and also just sort of like societal collapse, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.680 like because this was such an intricately connected society. When 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.520 you don't have let's say, people who are sick can't 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.959 then harvest food, and then people who get sick who 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.520 can't turn that food into ingredients, and then people who 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.240 can't turn ingredients into meals, and then people who can't 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.080 you know, it's just like becomes this thing where if 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.080 you're sick, then who's caring for you? So I think 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.760 that's where we have to kind of remember where those 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:25.120 mortality numbers are coming from. 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.120 Right, because it's not necessarily all directly attributable to disease, 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:33.760 right exactly, and or to this one specific disease. 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.520 Right and you can't assume care, even like palliative or 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:38.879 supportive care or something. 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:43.639 Yeah, and then this but despite that, that is the 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.640 number that's attributed to this outbreak which took place over 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:48.000 four years. 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:53.400 It is what is the population losses during this epidemic? 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:59.159 Yes? And can I ask a question? Yeah, when it 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:03.879 like sporadic, like evenly distributed across those four years. Do 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.800 we know was it like mostly at the beginning or 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.760 mostly at the end. Was it like every spring for example, 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:13.800 or something like that, or is it just like it 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:16.320 was these four years? And that's the most resolution that 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:16.720 we have. 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:20.359 So for the fifteen forty five one, more or less, 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.080 that's the most resolution that we have. I think it 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:27.680 probably started out very strong, and it seems to have 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:33.560 sort of swept through towns very quickly and very dramatically. 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:39.840 But we do have more information in general for the 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:46.440 fifteen seventy six one. Okay, so let's get into that, okay, please. 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:50.560 But also I will say that the fifteen forty five 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:52.680 to one did start in August. 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:57.840 It started in August, Okay, Yeah, in Paris, in Mexico, Okay, Okay. 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.520 So there would be other appearances of cocolitesli in the 0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:06.760 years following that fifteen forty five epidemic, but it really 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:11.760 came back with a vengeance in fifteen seventy six. Quote, 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.680 in the year fifteen seventy six, a great mortality and 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:19.639 pestilence that lasted for more than a year overcame the Indians. 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:23.440 It was so big that it ruined and destroyed almost 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:26.840 the entire land. The place we know as New Spain 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:30.000 was left almost empty. It was a thing of great 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.480 bewilderment to see the people die. Many were dead and 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:37.000 others almost dead, and nobody had the health or strength 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:40.040 to help the diseased or bury the dead. In the 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:43.280 cities and large towns, big ditches were dug, and from 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:46.720 morning to sunset the priests did nothing else but bury 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:49.600 the dead bodies and throw them into the ditches without 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.000 any of the solemnity usually reserved for the dead, because 0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:56.520 the time did not allow otherwise. At night they covered 0:25:56.560 --> 0:25:59.240 the ditches with dirt. It lasted for one and a 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.639 half years and with great excess in the number of deaths. 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:05.800 End quote wow okay. 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:11.080 That is a quote from Freewan de Torkumata, who was 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:15.480 a Franciscan historian, and he was describing the epidemic in 0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:21.680 Mexico City. The epidemic. This epidemic began in June in 0:26:21.720 --> 0:26:25.320 central Mexico and quickly made its way across the land, 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:28.800 reaching as far north as parts of what is now 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:32.880 the Southern US and as far south as the Peruvian Andes. 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.600 But the vast majority of cases were concentrated in like 0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:41.040 a four hundred mile radius in Mexico, where it spread 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:43.760 from the dry plains of the north to the densely 0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:49.359 populated subtropical valleys of central Mexico, leaving almost no place 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:55.320 unscathed except for perhaps the coastal areas. According to some, 0:26:56.880 --> 0:27:00.960 the spread seemed to slow by October fifteen seventy eight, 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:05.119 so it's like two years after, but then increased again 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:09.399 in August fifteen seventy nine, ending finally in the middle 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:16.520 of fifteen eighty one. The effect was truly devastating in Mexico. 0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:20.879 More than two million people died during this epidemic, half 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:25.600 of the population fifty one point three six percent to 0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:30.320 be precise. And we can be so precise because censuses 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:33.600 were conducted a few years before the epidemic and a 0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:34.359 few years after. 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:36.280 Wow. 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:42.000 Yeah, this epidemic in general, like I mentioned, is much 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:45.960 better documented, So get ready for lots of quotes. 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:46.520 Okay. 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:50.879 The mortality rate was not consistent across all areas, so 0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:56.200 one region southwest of Mexico City, Tepeyaka, lost eighty six 0:27:56.240 --> 0:28:00.600 point six percent of its population of sixty thousand, while Chilula, 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:04.200 east of Mexico City lost only forty percent of its 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:09.120 fifteen thousand inhabitants. Only forty percent, right. 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:10.679 An unbelievable number. 0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:18.119 Yeah yeah. One eyewitness described its erratic spread. Quote, it 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:20.560 appears as if it is a living thing, and that 0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:23.479