1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: I got such an angry letter from a Liz Fir 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: fan when you so kindly came and did backing. 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 2: Vocals on So What one of my songs. 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: One asked me to dance, and I got a letter 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: from a person going, don't advertise Liz Fair unless she's 6 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: going to actually be able to be heard in the mix. 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 2: How dare you mix her down? How dare she be 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: a backing vocalist? 9 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: How dare you, Mini Driver, use Liz Fair as you 10 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: have used you use her own? 11 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 3: Oh God, and so you had on the other country. 12 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: I moved to England. 13 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Mini Driver. I've always loved Proust's questionnaire. It 14 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: was originally in nineteenth century parlor game, where players would 15 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the 16 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: other player's true nature. In asking different people the same 17 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: set of questions, you can make observations about which truths 18 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: appear to be universal. 19 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: And it made me wonder, what if these questions were 20 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: just the jumping. 21 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Off point, what great day would be revealed if I 22 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: asked these questions as conversation starters. So I adapted Pru's 23 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions that I 24 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: personally think are pertinent to a person's story. 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 4: They are when and where were you happiest? What is 26 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 4: the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, real 27 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 4: or fictionalized, defines. 28 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: Love for you? 29 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 4: What question would you most like answered? What person, place, 30 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 4: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be 31 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 4: your last meal? And can you tell me something in 32 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 4: your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? 33 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: And I've gathered a group. 34 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: Of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored and 35 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: humbled to have had the chance to engage with. You 36 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: may not hear their answers to all seven of these questions. 37 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: We've whittled it down to which questions felt closest to 38 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: their experience or the most surprising, or created the most 39 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: fertile ground to connect. My guest today on many questions 40 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: is the recording artist Liz Fair. 41 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: Liz is a unicorn. 42 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: By that, I don't mean that she's mythic, because she's 43 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: one of the realist people I know. 44 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: But she is rare and she carved out. 45 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: Space for herself where she roamed wild and free, and 46 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: from what I can tell, still does. Liz was an 47 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: iconic force right out of the gate. From initial recordings 48 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: under the Girly Sounds banner. She was then signed and 49 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: she released her first album, Exile in Guyville, in nineteen 50 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: ninety three. And girls just weren't singing and writing the 51 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: songs I heard on that record. They were honest and factual, 52 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: blunt and sexual. I just thought she was the coolest 53 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: kind of feminist, and she still is. She and I 54 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: share a similar sort of doomish wisdom, where we think 55 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: everything good comes out of some kind of dead end, 56 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: constantly reimagining artistry and continuing to explore life outside the box. 57 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: I am thrilled that my good friend Liz agreed to 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: come on the show today. 59 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: So, Liz Fair, where and when were you happiest? 60 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: This is a dull answer, but it's when I'm on 61 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 3: vacation with friends and family. I love the feeling of 62 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 3: being suspended. I have a lot of trouble with rules 63 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 3: in society, although I'm also someone that appreciates order, so 64 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: it's a contradiction in me. But I really love taking 65 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 3: everyone I love out of context and being away where 66 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 3: you're outside of your norms, you're outside of your roles, 67 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: and you're together somewhere, and I feel a sense of 68 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: freedom there. And I don't think I ever feel more 69 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 3: like myself than when I'm on vacation, you know what 70 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 3: I mean, Like you just strip off all of society 71 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 3: and it just feels so good. So I think I'm 72 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 3: happiest and freest when I'm outside of the roles that 73 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 3: we're given, that we're scripted. 74 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: That's pretty wild given that you like the bell Weather 75 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: rock and roller creating her own reality literally a one 76 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: woman show band, Like how does that fit in? 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: Like what? 78 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: Because it's so funny the way that you made it 79 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: sounds like it's kind of corporate the world that. 80 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: You're escaping from. 81 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 5: You know, all these rules and regulations, like when you're 82 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 5: on the stage. 83 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: To do with your monitors down? What is it? 84 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 3: No, it makes sense, it's all of it. If I'd 85 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 3: come up now, maybe it would have been. But I 86 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 3: feel like when I came up in the music business, 87 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 3: every step was convincing someone that I could do it, 88 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 3: or just taking the step and then they're like, what 89 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: are you doing? You took a step? What did you 90 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: take a step for? I'm walking here, I'm walking, you know, 91 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: And so like every step along the way felt like 92 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: a bravery test. Wow, you know, like a fight for 93 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: the right to be an art I know it sounds stupid, 94 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: but that's how I feel now. 95 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: It doesn't sound stupid at all. It doesn't sound stupid 96 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: at all. 97 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: The people that cut the path through the field, who 98 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: are up front with the machete so that everybody else 99 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: can travel down that pathway. Like I always feel like 100 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: you were one of those women. Thank you, I did that, 101 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: So no wonder you're tired and you want a bloody holiday. 102 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: And that's why right. 103 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: Down you're always on alert for the tigers. You know, 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 3: you don't know what you're cutting into. And a lot 105 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 3: of times I know that in my career I've ruffled feathers. 106 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 3: Look my poor fans, are you know, haranguing you because 107 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 3: I haven't been positioned right? They also harangue me, you know, 108 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: if I haven't positioned myself correctly. 109 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: So can I just tell you that it's so crazy 110 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: because like hearing you say that, like it makes me 111 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: want to punch something. The idea of like being positioned 112 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: right because for me. 113 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: You are. I can't. 114 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: It's important for all these female artists. If you hadn't 115 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: done that, they wouldn't exist. So but it's interesting that 116 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: you the way that you feel that you weren't positioned right. 117 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,119 Speaker 1: I think you were positioned incredibly Like in my heart 118 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: and in so many millions of people's hearts, you are. 119 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: But I understand that of sort of hitting a wall 120 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: and going wow, they don't they don't get where I 121 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: want to take this next. 122 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: Well, you went into music, and you wrote a book, 123 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: a beautiful book, a beautiful memoir. 124 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: I've got to keep making. 125 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 3: All of those things are things that no one gave 126 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: you permission to do. You just said, this is what's 127 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: in me, and this is what I'm going to do next. 128 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: And I would imagine some of your agents were a 129 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 3: little bit surprised at your musical detour. 130 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: Possibly, yeah, I mean they definitely were like, well, that's 131 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: it for you, love, If you're going to move to 132 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: Hawaii just like lat music, goodbye, good bye. 133 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: No one will remember you when you come back. 134 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: And largely they were sort of right, but I think 135 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: theyde underestimated how much women are used to having to 136 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: insist on their space at the table, even if you've 137 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: left the table briefly for whatever your reasons are, mental health, 138 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: your soul, have a child, the fact that we can't 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: come back and go yeah, I'm going to sit back 140 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: down now. 141 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: Which is interesting. And you talk about roles. I mean, 142 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 3: until I moved to Hollywood, until I knew artists like you, 143 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: I didn't realize that acting was just another facet of 144 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: their artistry, That everyone who's an actor is also an artist. Yeah, 145 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: and so there's so much more to them that, you know, 146 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: Hollywood doesn't have a use for just do that acting thing, 147 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: look more beautiful, keep acting these people, these large souls 148 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: getting put into small roles. 149 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, or if you fall into the trip, the implied 150 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: insistence on youth and beauty, and that if you don't 151 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: subscribe to that and end up looking this weird, homogenized 152 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: way that a lot of women look now from having 153 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: bowed to that pressure, it doesn't work then either, because 154 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: then in a way you're then punished for having given in. 155 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: You've made yourself replaceable. 156 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, you know, I feel like a 157 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: lot of people have felt that way about women aging anyway, 158 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: But I don't see women doing that. I see people 159 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: writing off ads about women doing that, But no one 160 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: I know does that. No woman I know over the 161 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: age of fifty is invisible. They are the vibrant, most 162 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: powerful versions of themselves. 163 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: I know, I don't understand that. It's almost like fear mongering. 164 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 3: I'll always look up from an article. I'll be like, 165 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 3: do I I don't feel in. 166 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: If they shout more at the articles that I read 167 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: about you know, women and aging and what it means 168 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: and aren't you worried about this? No, you're worried about it. 169 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: You're just getting the clickbait. And I suppose I did 170 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: click on it to read it. 171 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 3: Well, you always want to know what are they saying. 172 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 3: There is a sense of our people to talking about this. 173 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: But I mean I watched my grandmother remarried twice after 174 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 3: the age of seventy. So I watched her date. 175 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: I love that. Did she have a great time doing it? 176 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: She did? And there was one that she became like 177 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: a teenager giggly at the tate. We're like, what's up 178 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 3: with winky? Look at her? She's like like, you know, 179 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 3: like this laugh. This personality comes out of your grandmother 180 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: that you've never seen before. So I think I had 181 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 3: a good role model in the sense that it ain't 182 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: over until it's over, and it's such a brief life anyway, 183 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 3: you know, why on earth are you limiting yourself in 184 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 3: these seventy two hundred years in any way, shape or form. 185 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you see it reflected back in the media, 186 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's only like that if you say it 187 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: is like, the more I've thought about it, the more 188 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: I genuinely believe there is only the meaning that we 189 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: assign in this world, and it's what lives in the 190 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: same space. For me is you get what you say, 191 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: You get what you say you worth. I think you 192 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: have to tell the story that you want to live. 193 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: You really do that activity. 194 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: I have a great metaphor for this. At one point 195 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 3: in two thousand and three, two thousand and four, there 196 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: was a lot of money being poured into promoting me, 197 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 3: so I was everywhere I was like under Capitol Records, 198 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: and I was very visible, and so everywhere I went 199 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 3: there's this tension of if people recognized you. But I 200 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: realized something at my own shows that if I needed 201 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: to leave the venue or go meet someone and there's 202 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 3: a line of people outside my show waiting to see me, 203 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 3: if I walk like it's no big deal, Like I'm 204 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: just super casually walking back, nobody recognizes me. I can 205 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: walk past my own line casually strong. But if I 206 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: have like people around me that're like, okay, we got 207 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 3: to get her out of here, everybody notices. So I'm 208 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 3: literally creating my own reality by how I'm carrying myself 209 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 3: and how I see that situation, and it stuck with me. 210 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 3: How you carry yourself to a large degree does shape 211 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: how you experience it and what that means to you 212 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: later on, and how that sticks with you. So if 213 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 3: you want to be invisible as a woman, you can 214 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: carry yourself invisibly, or you can carry yourself loudly. 215 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of the things that bothers me most 216 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: about the way in which middle aged women they speak 217 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: about this invisibility. 218 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: I bought into it. 219 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, that does happen, doesn't it. 220 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: And I was like, no, it doesn't. I remember calling 221 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: my mother really sad, one like genuinely profoundly depressed, and going, 222 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: I'm so sad. 223 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. What do I do? 224 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: And she was like, oh, put on some lipstick, be seen, 225 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: put your face on, act like it isn't what you 226 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: are saying is act like that and see what happens. 227 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: I remember being so annoyed with her put on. 228 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: Fucking red lipstick to act like I'm happy when I'm sad. 229 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: It was completely right, though when they say it visible, 230 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: what they're really just saying is men are not going 231 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 3: to try to run you down and conquer that for 232 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 3: such that is. 233 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: That is exactly that is exactly right. 234 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 3: But I don't want to be run down and conquered 235 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 3: for sex anymore. 236 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: So enough of that. Oh I'm sick of it. I'll 237 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: tell you what I've been I've been run over it anymore. Frankly, 238 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: it's you're right. 239 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: It is to do with a woman's worth being enforced 240 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: and tethered to this idea of desirability. 241 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: For sex specifically whatever. 242 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: Man, If that's really what it comes down to, just 243 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: like where you want to go and have sex. 244 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: Allow me to be invisible. 245 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: Let me maintain my invisibility, and I'll get on and 246 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: do all the really interesting shit that doesn't involve, you know, 247 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: ten minutes of sex with you. 248 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 3: Oh my god, thank you for putting such a fine 249 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: point on that. 250 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: And now we can I'll tell you my visibility over 251 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: a swift turn with you. 252 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: Love. 253 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 3: The articles never explained that part of it. 254 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: They never do. What is it we're going to be 255 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: seen by a swift ten minutes. I don't, I really don't. 256 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: I don't go and google Sally Rooney and see what 257 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: she's writing next. Thank you off? 258 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: Oh God, what relationship, real or fictionalized? 259 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: Defind love for you? 260 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 3: Okay? 261 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: Tell me. 262 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: I never knew this. In my twenties and thirties, how 263 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 3: I felt in relationships was of paramount importance, and it 264 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 3: wasn't until I became a mother, and frankly, it took 265 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: fifteen years past that to really understand that if you 266 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: love a person, you want the best for them. You 267 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: want them to find their journey, you want them to 268 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: realize their potential. And that's the kind of love that 269 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: I think is the highest love. It's the best love. 270 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: It's the most rewarding love. It's really hard to find, 271 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 3: and it's really hard to give. But to love somebody 272 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: and to love yourself wanting the best for you and 273 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: wanting you to fulfill your highest potential, that's real love. 274 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 3: That's the kind of love that if you break up 275 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: and it's not right between you, you can still look 276 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 3: at the person and say, I admire this person. There 277 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: was a point at which a relationship was something that 278 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: fulfilled me, that I got something out of, and then 279 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: I morphed into someone that wants the best for the 280 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 3: other person and only wants to date someone that I 281 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: would feel that way about. 282 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 4: Hmmm. 283 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: So distill it to what defines love for you? 284 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: A lack of selfishness, a keen interest and admiration and 285 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 3: feeling for a real connection that you can't put into words. 286 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: But that doesn't just consume, that doesn't just say, oh great, 287 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: when can we be together? What can we do? But 288 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: that listens to what they want to do, What are 289 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 3: you trying to do with your life? What are your dreams? 290 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: And then supporting that. I guess it's about only dating 291 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: people that you really already respect and admire as people individuals, 292 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 3: not meshing, not going to that full mesh that I 293 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 3: did in my twenties. Do you know what I'm saying. 294 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: About, Like, yeah, full mesh for the birds? 295 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 3: Well, I mean it was fine. Those are the epics 296 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 3: stories and the fights in the street and the like 297 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: ro Julia and the steaks or something. No, I'm not 298 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: into that. 299 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: I'm too tired for that. 300 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: But I also don't want I don't want ten minute sex. 301 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: But I also don't want that. I don't want I 302 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: don't want that screaming in the streets you to actualize. 303 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 3: I want you to have what you want in life, 304 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: and I want to be there for the ride. 305 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: But it's about respect, right, respect and recognition. And you're 306 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: right about liking who they are and that you support 307 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: that despite the compromise that it might be to your 308 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: own life, because you love them, because that's actually what 309 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: what love is. 310 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: I think that's interesting. 311 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 3: You want the best for them. 312 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: Have you got that? 313 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: No? And I remember a boyfriend telling me that that's 314 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 3: what it was, and I wanted to punch him. I 315 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: really did. I was like, take your Hallmark guard and 316 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: hit the road. 317 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: But he was right. 318 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: I hate it when someone tells you something that's right 319 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: and then you know they were right, and then you 320 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: have to carry that around. 321 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 3: Yeah it is. I don't have the relationship back, but 322 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: I took the advice. 323 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: Then you profited from that. 324 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 3: No do I have that now? 325 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 5: No? 326 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 3: I do not. It's very hard to find. But I 327 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: also don't trifle with possibles. If I don't feel deep 328 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: compulsion that this person is connecting with me, I think 329 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 3: of it as chakras. If they're not lighting up five 330 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 3: of those chakras at once. I'm not going to bother. 331 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so great. It's like a traffic 332 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: light system. That's fantastic. Yeah, I'm sorry, and there's all 333 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: three lights are going. We don't have anything happening. Yeah, 334 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: that makes it very practical. You have an internal traffic. 335 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 3: And if you're friends, that can always change because you know, 336 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 3: you'll fall in love if it's not ten minutes, if 337 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 3: it's half an hour's eare and it's satisfying. 338 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: Listen, I'm giving ten minutes. I'm giving ten. 339 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: Minutes a bad app there's a good version of ten minutes. 340 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: It's just the people that are cooling women invisible over 341 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: the age of fifty, and not that people have a 342 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: good ten minute sex. 343 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: Okay, that's the that's the fucking deal right there. 344 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: But that fellow, But I'll take a good ten minutes. 345 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: This is all the truth you need. 346 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: I'll take a good ten minutes with my boyfriend any 347 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: day of the week. 348 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: God damn right. 349 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, but he's also probably a forty five minute or 350 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 3: a ten minute or a five minute or and any 351 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: sort of thing. 352 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: He's all the minutes. Indy, Oh, the minutes I need. 353 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: I think we should drive a song. He's old minutes. 354 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 3: And we can even have parts of it. We're like 355 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: fifteen minutes now, you know, No, it's like twenty minutes. 356 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: Now. 357 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 5: Hi, my name's twenty minutes and I'm a mid point 358 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 5: in your day. Hi, my name's two minutes. I'm a 359 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 5: knee trembling in the kitchen. 360 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 3: I'm your launch pray. 361 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: It's Friday, Sunday afternoon. 362 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 3: He's all minutes in the hour, so he's all a 363 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: minutes by me. 364 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: Oh my godnes on a Tuesday. By the way, I'm 365 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: definitely writing the song. I'm going to send it to you. 366 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: All right, Angel in your life, can you tell me 367 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: about something that has grown out of a personal disaster? 368 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 3: The knee jerk reaction is everything's grown out of personal disaster. 369 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: I like that. 370 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 3: Correct way to say is I see personal disaster as opportunities. 371 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 3: Not at the moment, but I always keep that in 372 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 3: the back of my mind. So if you consider the 373 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 3: fact that I was adopted, I came right out of 374 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 3: a personal disaster into a pretty good situation. And you know, 375 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 3: though I I wanted to be a visual artist, the 376 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 3: personal disaster of me sort of having my I'm not 377 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 3: going to school anymore. I hate everything, I hate everyone. 378 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 3: That personal disaster wrote Guyville, and so then the personal 379 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 3: disaster of oh god, now it's my job to perform 380 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 3: on stage that personal disaster. Or when I was having 381 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 3: trouble with my record company, well, I have a college degree. 382 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 3: I could write a book, you know. So everything comes 383 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: out of a dead end. For me. Everything that I've 384 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 3: done that has really impressed me about myself has come 385 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 3: out of a dead end where something isn't working out. 386 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 3: And that may just be that I value those experiences 387 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: more because I overcame something. But personal disaster for me 388 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: equates with growth. So anytime I break something or someone 389 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 3: breaks me, even in the depths of it, and trust me, 390 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 3: I'm going to go hide in a cave for about 391 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: six months. It's just been my experience on life like 392 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: that is what happens. Necessity is the mother of invention. 393 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 3: That is the truism. But it's true, and it's extremely 394 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 3: useful in my life because otherwise there's no rhyme or 395 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: reason to what I've done in my life. Young people 396 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 3: should remember that exactly. 397 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: It's just like wait a minute, just let it breathe 398 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: when it's really bad, give it a second. 399 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: What person, place, or experience most altered your life. 400 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: I'm so happy we have arrived at this question. Music, 401 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 3: music industry, music business, music fans, playing music, performing music. 402 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 3: You know, I got into this business to be recording 403 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: artists and never thought that I would have to perform 404 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 3: said music. And it has been something that I have 405 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 3: had to learn how to do, had to learn how 406 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 3: to love, had to get better at and it has 407 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 3: changed me so profoundly that it's hard to even explain. 408 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: But sometime around two thousand and five, I was a 409 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 3: new mom. I had a six year old and I 410 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 3: was teaching him about singing, and I realized that opening 411 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: my heart to be a better singer was not about technique. 412 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 3: For me, it was about not strangling my voice, not 413 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 3: feeling that shyness. It's always for me about letting you 414 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: see me, letting myself be vulnerable in front of people, 415 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 3: and the fact that given a choice, I would never 416 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: do that, and that because of my job. It's been 417 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 3: the work of my life. Has made me such a 418 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 3: better person in so many ways. It never lets me 419 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: totally put roots down because I'm always being asked can 420 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: you give more? Can you give something new of yourself? 421 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 3: Can you open up again? And that has shaped me 422 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 3: in ways that I'm deeply grateful for. Wow, because I 423 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: wouldn't have you wouldn't know. I would have been like 424 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 3: I would have been a know it all. I would 425 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: have sat back and been like, I don't do that. 426 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 3: But now I can never say I don't do that. 427 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe I do do that. I don't know, 428 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: because the thing that I would least like to do 429 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 3: became my job. 430 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: What did you think you were going to do? 431 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 3: Sit back and make records, make art, make visual art? 432 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 3: Maybe right, anything behind the scenes, nothing in front of 433 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 3: the camera. 434 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: Who made you go in front of the camera? 435 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 3: People fans? 436 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: When you made a record, you must have known that 437 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: you were going to have to go out and tour 438 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: that and promote it and get on stage. 439 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: No. No, I was twenty six. I had fully prepared 440 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 3: and trained to be a visual artist. I had my 441 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: whole life set out. I knew I'd have a studio. 442 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 3: I fantasized about being like on the East Coast, you know, 443 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 3: and having the life of the house and then my 444 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 3: studio next to it. HM, that would be my fantasy. 445 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: Wow, wow, but you anyway. 446 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 3: I did it anyway, I mean not just anyway. I 447 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 3: did it and did it and did it, and like 448 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 3: I said, the biggest gift was the thing that I 449 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 3: wanted to avoid, and that lesson never left me. Now 450 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 3: I always know if something comes up and I'm like, 451 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: you know, she'll probably do it, and maybe I should, 452 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 3: maybe I shouldn't, but like I could, I could try. 453 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, I love that like I could. 454 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: My mother was like that till the very end. 455 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: She was eighty four, and probably a month before she died, 456 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: she didn't know she was going to die. 457 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: She'd started a new business because she. 458 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: Was like, I love it because because I want to 459 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: and there's like a gap and because I can and 460 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: I'm doing it, and she did it, and that whole 461 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: notion of yeah, you see something that you can't do, 462 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: you go, yeah, but I could. 463 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: I don't feel like doing that, Yeah, but I could. 464 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: I could do that. I love that that. 465 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: There is only the limit that you put upon yourself. 466 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: That you say, that is andy invisible cloak that you. 467 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: Put on yourself. 468 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: There is only that sort of stifling of your thoughts. 469 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 3: They're fragile, you know, they can be shattered. I love 470 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 3: that chapter. But may I talk about your memoiral like 471 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 3: that chapter about your mom passing. There was brutal parts 472 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 3: about it, but the eloquence with which you described the 473 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 3: love you have for her and how she was determined 474 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: the Duchess, I mean, like, it's just that was such 475 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 3: a satisfying and beautiful chapter to explain a daughter's love. 476 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 3: And it was complicated, and it was filled with so 477 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 3: much stuff, and there were things you wouldn't even try 478 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: to put into words, you know, the way you would 479 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 3: sit by her, and how quickly you were rousable from 480 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 3: your sleep, the way you had been when your son 481 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 3: was so young, Like that just meant a lot to 482 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: me as my parents are getting older, and just thank you. 483 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 3: It meant a lot to me. And I think that 484 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 3: you have a very powerful way of opening up private 485 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: experiences to a very broad encompassing lens. That's so it's 486 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 3: really thank. 487 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: You, Thank you so much, thank you. 488 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: It's just an exploration, as you know, it's. 489 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: Just like go on a journey. 490 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: That's a hard relationship to define, and you did it 491 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: so beautifully without defining it. 492 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 2: Thank you. 493 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 3: She sounds like she was a very formative love. 494 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: She was always slightly out of reach, like I could 495 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: never quite get her, and then obviously death has been 496 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: the ultimate. 497 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 2: Oh my god, she got away. I never quite. But 498 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: that's that you. 499 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: Wrote a song about you. 500 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: And what she like, what she inspired because there was 501 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: no the idea of her being an arrival point. That 502 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: that has been like rocket fuel in my life to 503 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: keep exploring. And it's not about not being satisfied, but 504 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: staying curious about how do we keep feeling in this 505 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: world that's so hard? 506 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: How do you keep. 507 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: Having fragile feelings and experiences. She taught me how to 508 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: do that because it's what she did, and she went 509 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: out chasing whatever came next in a way. 510 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 3: Always Yeah, yeah, I respect that so much. I mean, 511 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 3: starting a business while you're on your deathbed, that's something 512 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 3: I'd like. 513 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: To do, Yeah, totally, whilst also watching the football and 514 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: telling us all what we needed to do. 515 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, she was immense, amazing, she was immense. 516 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: That's what you gave word to Our mothers are immense. 517 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 3: They are immense, and that's what you cant you. 518 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thomy, thank you so much. All right, I 519 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: better ask you the next question otherwise, well, next question, 520 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: what is the quality you like least about yourself. 521 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 3: I thought about this for a long time. There's a 522 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 3: lot of qualities I don't like about myself, but the 523 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 3: most I think troublesome to my The way I want 524 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 3: to come across is impatience. I am impatient. It's very 525 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 3: hard for me to slow it down and let things 526 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 3: unfold if I think I know where they're going, and 527 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 3: I miss a lot. I miss people by doing that, 528 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 3: I miss letting them unfold. 529 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 2: Hmmm. 530 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: So I like that least about myself. 531 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 4: Hmmm. 532 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: Do you take steps to I don't know have self 533 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: correct is the right word, because that that all sounds 534 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: a bit like you need a writing crop. 535 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 3: What do you I do? I could use it. 536 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: I need to whip myself. 537 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: Listening. I practice listening, as we were talking about before 538 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 3: with my career, trying to always step where no one 539 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 3: has given me permission to step. That can create a 540 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 3: you kind of a not pushing us, but like a 541 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 3: I hear no, but I'm seeing you know maybe that 542 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: kind of like let's try this. So letting things happen 543 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 3: to me, letting myself go through things without speeding it 544 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 3: up or escaping it. 545 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 2: That makes sense, Yeah, totally. 546 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: I mean I think a lot of it is wrapped 547 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: up with like again having to be the herald of 548 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: your own work. Like also, you weren't in a band 549 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: like it was you, like that's how you presented yourself, 550 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: and you're writing all the songs, so there had to 551 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: be probably quite a lot of people that needed to 552 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: be tuned out who were telling you what to do. 553 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: It's interesting, though, a really useful tool then becomes something 554 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: that as we evolve, it's like, oh, that thing that 555 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: served me so well, then perhaps that part of me 556 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: has to evolve so that now it actually does listen, 557 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: now that it's not a survival technique. 558 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: Not listening, that's it. 559 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: You've just encapsulated perfectly growing up because whatever characteristics you 560 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 3: had in childhood, they were adaptive. You're doing the best 561 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 3: in the environment that you had, and this is how 562 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: you made it through whatever you were going through. And 563 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 3: if you're lucky enough to get control of your life 564 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: to some extent, you can look at those things. Since 565 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: for so much of my life I just kept going. 566 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 3: It worked before, just keep going, and it wasn't until 567 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 3: my forties I think that I stopped and said, yeah, 568 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 3: but the same problems keep popping up, like the same 569 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 3: failures keep happening. And so I had to kind of 570 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 3: pull apart as we do our psychology and look at 571 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 3: it and think about what if I changed my mind 572 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: and I approach everything that way. Now I'm going to 573 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 3: change myself before I'm going to change anyone else. 574 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: That's so good. I got to try and do that more. 575 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 3: It's hard. I don't succeed all the time, believe me, 576 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 3: It's just what I try to do. 577 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: It is interesting, though, when one realizes, you know, we've 578 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: all had to learn how to actually be kinder to ourselves. 579 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: As my friend Emma said one day, yeah, but are 580 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: you being too kind to yourself? 581 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: Do you not need to be a little bit tougher 582 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 2: with yourself? 583 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: I was like, and she's absolutely correct. 584 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: Now and now I think about. 585 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: Being the common denominator in all my shit. And even 586 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: though I used to beat myself with that, then I 587 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of forgave myself completely and let myself off the hook. 588 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: And the weird thing is that there's this whole part 589 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: I just never evolved because it was like, look, either 590 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: you have never found the middle way of going It's 591 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: okay for this fallibility and this shit, but just let 592 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: it remind you in a more robust way as opposed 593 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: to I'm either going to pretend it's not there and 594 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: like love myself and it's not about me, it's about them, 595 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: beat myself like that. There's somewhere in the middle. I 596 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: think that's actually what middle age is, is that you 597 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: find the fucking middle path. Everyone's so busy talking about 598 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: your wrinkles, they don't realize it. 599 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: It's actually quite sweet. 600 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: I'm not living in a quite such a polarized way 601 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: with yourself. 602 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: The extreme. Yeah, it's easy to shift into the extreme, 603 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 3: like go go go that way, go go go this way. 604 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: That was my twenties and thirties right there. 605 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: That's it. That's my next book. It's just going to 606 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: be that. 607 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: It's just going to say that's fair. 608 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: Wrote my next book. 609 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: That's what it. 610 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: Don't be called by many driving. 611 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 3: I love you Mini, thank you so much for this, 612 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 3: and thank you for your memoir. It was very personally meaningful. 613 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: To thank you so so much. 614 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: Angel, really really really and also really hope to see you. 615 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: Back in California. 616 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 3: Let's do it. 617 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 2: I mean allor right, Angel, Hi, take care of yourself. 618 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: We'll see Sue See Sue, Hi Love Bye. Mini Questions 619 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: is hosted and written by Me, Mini Driver Executive produced 620 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with production support from Jennifer Bassett, 621 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: Zoey Denkler and Ali Perry. 622 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: The theme music is also by. 623 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: Me and additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to 624 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: Jim Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella, a, Nick Oppenheim, A, 625 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: Nick Muller and Annette wolf A w kPr, Will Pearson, 626 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: Nicki Etoor, Morgan Levoy and mangesh Had Tiggadore