1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. Production of my 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: heart radio. Hey, are you welcome to stuff to blow 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: your mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: In the last episode, the last core episode, we discussed 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: the nature of incense and how it factors into the 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: mix with other fire based technologies, both as an occasional 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: practical measure, but also something linked to sacred rights around 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: the world, either as a kind of direct offering to 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: divine beings or spirits, or is a means of setting 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: aside a sacred space for ritual we've changed the atmosphere 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: of this space with incense and now it is an 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: appropriate place to do something that is not mundane, that 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: is not part of the vulgar world, that is part 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: of the sacred world. We also discussed some specific examples 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: of dedicated sensors for incense, but we didn't touch on 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: one of the most famous Western examples of incense use, 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: and that's where we're gonna kick off today with this episode, 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: Part Two of Incense, and that's of priests swinging metal 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: sensors around on chains, wafting sacred smoke through holy spaces. 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about the world of Thuribles. That's right. 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: If you've ever watched, uh, you know, maybe a service 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: on a particular holy day from from one of the 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of the high church denominations, so maybe a Catholic 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: service or an eastern Orthodox service, you may have seen 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: a member of the clergy walking around carrying some kind 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: of cage suspended from chains, and out of that cage 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: is wafting wisps of smoke. Now, I was reading about 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: the history of Thuribles in a book called the history 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: of the Church in art by Rosa Georgi. Uh, this 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: was a getty art history publication from two thousand eight 31 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: translated by Brian Phillips, and this is the entry in 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: this book on the Thurrible and the incense boat. And 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: Georgy here describes the Thurible as, quote, a cup shaped 34 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: container with a lid controlled by four chains. It is 35 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: used with a smaller container in the shape of an 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: open boat. Both are made of precious metals. So, going 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: back deep into the history of the pre Christian Roman Empire, 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: it was customary to sprinkle a room with incense. The 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: use of incense was initially controversial in Christian rights, and 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: I'll get into more of the reasoning behind that in 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: another paper I want to talk about in a minute. 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: But this was especially because of its association with Pagan Rituals. 43 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: But eventually incense was widely adopted for church uses, especially 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: in the fourth and fifth centuries, uh and this would 45 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: be for uses such as the veneration of the dead 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: and the demarcation of special days of worship. Georgie writes 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: that the thurible itself has been in use since roughly 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: the seventh century and it usually consists of a cup 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: shaped container, and you carry that hanging from four chains 50 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: and you swing it around and the Cup has a 51 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: lid with holes of some kind in it. The holes 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: are important so that air can get in and so 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: that smoke can get out, kind of like the vents 54 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: on a grill, and in the middle of the cup 55 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: there's usually a small container for the burning incense itself. 56 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: If you look at the earliest examples, thuribles tend to 57 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: be simply round or hexagonal boxes, but over time the 58 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: thurible becomes more ornate. Quote in Gothic Times it took 59 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: on architectural forms to symbolize the Church building itself, and 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: from the seventeenth century onward it acquired freer forms. Now, 61 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: I think this point about the the innovations of gothic 62 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: times is very interesting. If you look at many historical Thuribles, 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: you can often see this architectural Motif, how they might 64 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: resemble the Dome or the spire that would be found 65 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: atop the cathedral that you were carrying them around the 66 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: inside of, all almost like this is a little model 67 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: of our church and the smoke pouring out of it 68 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: and floating up into the air. It's kind of like 69 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: the prayer and the worship floating up out of this 70 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: building to reach God. Yeah, that's that's that's interesting. It is. 71 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: I never thought about it like that before, but it is. 72 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: It's kind of in many cases that you're looking at 73 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: kind of like a little model of a church is 74 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: being swung around inside of a church. Yeah, so there. 75 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: So there's the thurible itself, but then there is also 76 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: an attendant artifact called the NAVICULA, which, confusingly, is also 77 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: the name of a genus of algae that are said 78 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: to resemble boats. I think both these names come from 79 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: the word for boat, uh, and if you look up 80 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: navicula as algae, they really do look like boats. It's 81 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: it's one of the better examples of naming an organism 82 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: after a human made object because it actually does look 83 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: like the thing, unlike many of those. Yeah, it does. 84 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: Now in the church context, the NAVICULA is a little 85 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: spice tray. It's uh, it's a small boat shaped container 86 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: and You keep the incense in there and then, when 87 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: you're running out inside the Thurible, transfer more from the 88 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: NAVICULA to the throuble with the spoon. And Georgie writes 89 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: that the boat shape of the NAVICULA became common in 90 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries because it symbolized the church 91 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: carrying Christians to salvation as if on a boat. And 92 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: she also includes some interesting examples of artwork depicting the 93 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: use of Thuribles in, say, Bible Stories. One is a 94 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: painting by seventeenth century Italian artist named Filippo Abiati, called 95 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: Solomon Making a sacrifice to the idols and rob I've 96 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: included a copy of this painting for you to look 97 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: at here. A few interesting things to note about it. 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: So this is based on a passage in first kings 99 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: in the Hebrew Bible. UH, talking about how you know, 100 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: despite the fact that Solomon in some senses was very 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: wise and worshiped the god of Israel. It's also kind 102 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: of disparaging. It's like he ran around with some foreign 103 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: idols and it says that, quote, he sacrificed and burnt 104 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: incense at the high places, meaning two idols of of 105 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: other gods, and the painting shows Solomon placing a thurible 106 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: on a table in front of a humanoid idol. It 107 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: looks kind of like a classical Greek statue and I 108 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: thought this was interesting because the painting is correct in 109 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: assuming that the use of incense burning uh took place 110 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: in honoring the gods of many religions going back into 111 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: ancient times and pre dates Christianity. But it's interesting that 112 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: it shows him using a thurrible with a design that 113 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: would have been contemporary and used in Christian churches at 114 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: the time of the painting. Be kind of like if 115 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: you had an illustration of Christ speaking to the masses 116 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: and he's using a megaphone. Yeah, now, leap frogging off 117 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: of this, I actually came across a paper that I 118 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: found totally fascinating, a paper about the role of Aromas 119 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: in the history of Christian theology, but specifically focusing on 120 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: a figure named Saint Ephrem the Syrian, and this was 121 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: a paper by Susan Ashbrook Harvey. I also want to 122 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: give a shout out that I came across it by 123 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: way of reference in a Jay store daily article by 124 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: Livia Ger Shawn. But this, this paper by Susan Ashbrook Harvey, 125 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: was published in the Journal of Theological Studies in Nineteen 126 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: and it's called St from on the scent of salvation. 127 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: Susan Ashbrook Harvey, the scholar who wrote this, as a 128 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: professor of history and religion at Brown University. And this 129 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: is all about this guy known as St Ephrem the Syrian, 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: or St Ephraim. He lived in the fourth century, from 131 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: three Oh six to three seventy three, in the eastern 132 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: part of the Roman Empire, and he was a popular 133 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: Christian theologian, but especially a prominent as a popular writer 134 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: of Hymns, a hymnographer. So you may in fact have 135 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: heard hymns where the lyrics were composed by this guy, 136 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: by St e Ram interesting, and I have to fillock 137 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: up which ones we can attribute to him. Generally, I'm 138 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: just used to saying like John Wesley's name and that 139 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: the Western names well I don't know. I don't know 140 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: how much Ephraim you're going to get in English speaking churches. 141 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: I think that some of his hymns are still sung 142 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: in some Orthodox churches. But Anyway, Harvey highlights the fact 143 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: that in many of his Hymns St Ephraim uses a 144 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: very interesting phrase, rhea Dehyuta, which could be translated as 145 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: the fragrance of life. Now, as a bit of background, 146 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: smell and fragrance had an important place in the rituals of, 147 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: according to Harvey, all the major religions of the ancient Mediterranean, 148 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: not just the various pagan cults, but also in Judaism 149 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: and eventually in Christianity, though it seems like the very 150 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: earliest Christianity, the first few centuries of Christianity tended to 151 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: avoid the use of fragrances and incense, but that changed 152 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: over time and would change by Ephraim's time. Uh. Now, 153 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: across all these different distinct religions, the form of many 154 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: sacrificial gifts to God or to the Gods was is 155 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: a burnt offering. You would burn something to make that 156 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: a gift to the Gods and you would expect the 157 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Gods to reward you in turn with with good favor, 158 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: with blessings of some kind. Uh. This is the classic 159 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: I scratch your back, you scratch my back, relationship between 160 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: between humans and the Gods. And Uh, these burnt offerings 161 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: could include anything from the burnt flesh of an animal 162 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: sacrifice to the burning of incense on a God's altar. 163 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: And it was often, I think this is one of 164 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the strangest things, it was often explicitly said that the 165 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: smell of the offering in particular was pleasing to the gods. 166 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: And this is not just in Pagan religions. There are 167 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: loads of examples of this in the Hebrew Bible. In fact, 168 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: I even alluded to one example I'm going to site 169 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: in the last part of the series. Uh So, if 170 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: you look to the book of Leviticus, Chapter One, the 171 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: Lord is telling Moses how to perform sacrifices of livestock. 172 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: It says, quote, then the priest shall turn the whole 173 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: is referring to a bull. Shall turn the whole into 174 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: smoke on the altar as a burnt offering, an offering 175 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: by fire of pleasing odor to the Lord. And this 176 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: is not the only reference like this. There are tons 177 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: of references throughout the Bible of smells being pleasing to God. 178 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: Just a few verses later, at the beginning of chapter two, 179 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: we get a specific reference to incense. We learned that 180 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: if somebody makes a grain offering instead of an animal offering. Quote, 181 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: when anyone presents a grain offering to the Lord, the 182 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: offering shall be of choice flower. The worshipers shall pour 183 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: oil on it and put Frankincense on it and bring 184 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: it to Aaron's sons the priests, after taking from it 185 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: a handful of the choice flour and oil, with all 186 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: its frankincense. The priests shall turn this token portion into 187 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: smoke on the altar and offering by fire of pleasing 188 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: odor to the Lord. So over and over again we 189 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: learn that it was believed that the aroma of sacrifice 190 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: itself is what gives the Lord Pleasure. And meanwhile, in 191 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: Roman Pagan cults it was common practice to make a 192 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: burnt offering of some kind. Also could be a burnt 193 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: offering of an animal or an offering of sweet smelling incense. 194 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: In fact, I think incense was often considered sort of 195 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: the baseline sacrifice you could make to the Roman gods. 196 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: It was like, you know, you didn't have an whole animal, 197 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: you could at least get a little chunk of incense 198 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: and burn that. I love the wording in this uh, 199 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: this this quote you read about turning the token portion 200 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: into smoke, and it kind of gets to this, UH, 201 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: something we've touched on with with fire technology before, about 202 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: the the transformation of one thing into the other, the 203 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: sort of alchemical power of of cooking or flame or 204 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: in this case burnt offering. Right. I think that very 205 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: transformation was something that that a lot of ancient theologians 206 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: found kind of transfixing in a way, like they did 207 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: write about it. I think we may get to a 208 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: bit about that in in just a minute here. But 209 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: another thing is it doesn't stop just with the smell 210 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: of burnt offerings, whether that's, you know, the kind of 211 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: barbecue smell of of an animal, or whether that is 212 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: the scent of incense on the altar. Also, in religions 213 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: of the ancient Mediterranean, fragrant holy oils were used to 214 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: anoint new initiates or people specially blessed in some circumstance, 215 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: or maybe the sick or the dying. So the point 216 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: is smells were a deeply rooted part of religious life 217 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: and the experience of the divine for multiple religions with 218 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: otherwise very different beliefs. Now, coming back to St Ephraim, 219 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: specifically of the fourth century and his idea of the 220 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: fragrance of life, harvey notes that. One thing I think 221 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: is worth pointing out. We often when we say the 222 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: word fragrance, that has a positive connotation to it. You know, 223 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: the fragrance of life is necessarily a good smell and, 224 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: as Efraim used it, it does seem to often have 225 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: positive connotations. But actually the word he's using here, Rehau, 226 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: does not mean only pleasant smells. It could mean the 227 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: smell of anything from a chunk of murder to a 228 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: bookcave flowers to a big old tub of spoiled sour cream. 229 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: It would cover it all. So it might be better 230 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: to think of it as smell, even though it's usually 231 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: translated into English as fragrance. It's tough when you're talking 232 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: about English because I I feel, and and this has 233 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: been pointed out, I've seen this pointed out by researchers before, 234 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: that English language, especially it's popular usage today, is not 235 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: great at describing smells and odors like it. Yeah, it's 236 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: one of the reasons whereas so often times you'll hear 237 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: kids talking about food stinking like or smelling like, I 238 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: don't know. They's just that sometimes the vocabulary is lacking there, 239 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: and certainly our usage of the vocabulary to properly describe 240 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: smells as more than just, you know, extremely pleasant or 241 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: or extremely alarming. Yeah, a lot of smell words have 242 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: too much front connotation, loading like they're already even if 243 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: you say the words smell, which is supposed to be neutral, 244 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,599 Speaker 1: I think more often that's going to have a negative connotation, 245 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, fragrance makes you think of flowers or something, 246 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: or perfume. Aroma, I think, often makes me think of, 247 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, onions and garlic, like cooking aromatic cooking ingredients. Yeah, 248 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm I'm always annoyed when there's talk of, quote, Stinky Cheeses, like, 249 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: come on, wait, we have other words that we can use. 250 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: So we can say that these these cheeses are pungent, perhaps, 251 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: but but are they stinky? I think you're it's just 252 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: it's just a loaded description. It's pre judging. Yeah, but okay. 253 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: So what's the deal? What? What is the fragrance of life? 254 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: According to St Efrem. Well, Harvey writes about it like this. 255 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: Harvey writes, quote, for from knowledge of God is something 256 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: not only cognitive in origin but also sensory, hence the 257 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: arresting quality of his old factory imagery. Bypassing the mind 258 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: body dichotomy and leaving aside the question of rationality, is 259 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: the basis for establishing truth from finds in sensory experience 260 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: a knowledge about God which cannot be gained any other way. 261 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: So Harvey argues that for Efraim the fragrance of life 262 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: is part of an idea that knowledge can be, quote, 263 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: non cognitive yet genuinely revelatory of divine being, truth and action. 264 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: Now that might be like, I don't know. At first 265 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: I was like, what is she talking about? What does 266 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: this mean? But I eventually got through it. She's saying 267 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: that for Fraim, and not just him. There were other 268 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: ancient theologians who thought this way. But for Efraim, like 269 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: you can know God is there because you can sense 270 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: him with your senses. And according to Harvey, this belief 271 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: has interesting relationships to the religious context of asceticism in 272 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: early Syrian Christianity, which was fram's context. So there's a 273 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: section kind of on what you might call the natural 274 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: theology of e Ram. You know sometimes, uh, you'll hear 275 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: various versions of this where people look, will express their 276 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: religious beliefs in terms of viewing the natural world. It's like, 277 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, observe the way the regularity of nature, look 278 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: at the way the tides work, look at the way 279 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: plants grow, look at the way the sun comes up 280 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: and comes down. That just proves that my religious beliefs 281 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: are true. Yeah, sometimes this is very clunkily carried out 282 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: as well, like you'll see a billboard by the highway 283 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: and it's like proof of God and it's a picture 284 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: of a baby, and I'm like, okay, well, it's cute 285 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: and all, but I don't know if that's proof of 286 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: anything other than like two people had a baby. Well, yeah, 287 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: I mean I think it's it's making like it's like 288 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: cutting out a step in the middle. So you look 289 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: at all these things and they are indeed amazing and 290 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: they can fill you with wonder and they can be 291 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: inspiring and make you feel like wow, there's you know, 292 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: there's so much more to life and to existence than 293 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: I often realize when I'm just going about my tedious 294 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: little everyday tasks. And that's all true. And then there's 295 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: a second leap where the person says and therefore the 296 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: fact that there is more means whatever I in particular 297 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: happened to believe is what the more is. And I 298 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: think that's the part that they're kind of skipping over. 299 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: Truth of God confirmed. But but I think one thing 300 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: I find very interesting about about the the the invocation 301 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: of smell, he had the invocation of voters, is that, 302 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, as we've discussed on the show before, like 303 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: there's an immediacy to the way we register smell that 304 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: does often feel like it comes outside of reason and 305 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: it comes outside of memory, and I think that's that's 306 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: very fascinating to think about in this context. Like I 307 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: would say, picture of a baby doesn't really tell you anything, 308 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: but the smell of a baby, I don't know. I 309 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: don't know. That might that might be prooved of God confirmed. 310 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: That's more uh, it's at least more convincing to the brain. 311 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: Like the emotional impact is more powerful than the billboard. Yeah, Um, 312 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: but so what's the deal with Ephraim's natural theology? I mean, 313 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: I think this is the less interesting part of what 314 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: he's trying to say. He's saying like you can sense 315 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: God with nature because like every element of nature is 316 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: in some sense stamped with his seal. An example given 317 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: in the paper that I thought was funny. Harvey talks 318 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: about how Efrem said, you know, birds have to extend 319 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: their wings in order to fly and when they extend 320 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: their wings they make the shape of the cross. There 321 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: you go. There is a lot of Christian theology from 322 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: the early centuries that reads kind of like this. To 323 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: me it's like you're kind of reaching, but I admire 324 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: the effort. Thank thank but anyway. So Efraim believes that 325 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: baptism kind of changes the body, allowing it to acquire 326 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: new senses that can literally directly sense God and the 327 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: divine through sites and sounds and tastes and smells. Uh So, 328 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: to read from Harvey here quote in Efraim's hymns, eating 329 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: and smelling are closely related experiences. So too are the 330 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: concepts bread of life and fragrance of life. Bread of 331 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: life is a is a phrase directly from the Gospels 332 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: in the New Testament, where Jesus says I am the 333 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: bread of life, and this is taken in mass to 334 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: refer to, like the sharing of communion, the eating of 335 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: bread at communion. But anyway, Harvey goes on. When eaten 336 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: as the bread of life, Christ pervades the whole of 337 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: the believer's being. When inhaled, as the fragrance of life, 338 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: Christ again penetrates throughout the believer. EFREM titles Christ, quote 339 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: the Glorious Lily, quote the treasure of perfumes around whom 340 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: the faithful gather, quote that they might inhale and be 341 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: sated and that the power of Christ's deeds might permeate 342 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: their senses. And then harvey goes on with her own writing. Here, 343 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: through the act of breathing the life force itself, Christ's 344 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: presence saturates the believer. Interestingly, it is fragrance rather than 345 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: breath that efrem highlights again and again. His old factory 346 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: imagery is about encounter, not animation. The breath of life 347 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: that Adam received at creation animated his lifeless body. The 348 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: fragrance of Christ inhaled by the believer indicates by its 349 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: smell the action of human slash divine encounter through sensory experience. 350 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: So this probably seems very weird to most people today, 351 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: even to most Christians today, I would guess, the idea 352 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: that you could literally sense the resurrection of Christ directly 353 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: by smelling him. But as weird as that might seem 354 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: to us today, Harvey again emphasizes that Special Aromas were 355 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: a very important part of the rituals of basically every 356 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: religion in the ancient Mediterranean and in ancient literature, divinity 357 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: is often described as having a sweet smell. Harvey writs, quote, 358 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: the Association was not capricious, immaterial, invisible yet tangibly experienced. 359 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: Scent provided a fitting metaphor for divinity that exceeded physicality 360 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: or comprehension. Scent conveyed s rather than substance. It could 361 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: not be contained or circumscribed. Circumscribed it had the powered 362 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: across boundaries. The experience of it could not be voluntarily controlled, 363 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: since was affective yet ineffable. Wow, that's that's neat that. 364 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: This reminds me of the bit we're discussing the last 365 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: episode about the presence of the the imperial Chinese court 366 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: and in the presence of the emperor, who again has 367 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: divine connotations. And you can compare that to various traditions 368 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: of divine kings and cultures around the world, but the 369 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: idea that this, this would be a presence that had 370 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: its own unique olfactory reality and that by by smelling that, 371 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: you're smelling the divine as well. Yeah, exactly. And and 372 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: she goes on to include many examples of the way 373 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: from Uh reimagined like existing pre existing Bible stories, as 374 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: essentially being about smell, like when St Ephraim describes the 375 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: story of the first pentecost in the book of acts. 376 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: This is a story where, after the death of Jesus, 377 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: the apostles are said to be they're said to suddenly 378 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: be filled with the Holy Spirit and they begin to 379 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: speak in tongues to the multitudes. Ef Him writing about 380 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: this in him writes again in translation quote. When the 381 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: blessed apostles were gathered together, the place shook and the 382 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: scent of Paradise, having recognized its home, poured forth its perfumes. 383 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: So the infilling of the Holy Spirit is like the 384 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: pouring of a perfume. You can literally smell it. So 385 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: Harvey summarizes at the end of this section. Quote. For Efraim, 386 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: Olfactory Experience Mirror sacramental reality. To Smell God is to 387 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: know God as a transcendent yet transforming experience, a presence 388 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: actively known through bodily experience. Okay, so so that's section 389 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: one of this paper, the one that I think actually 390 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: I found the most interesting. This is about how Efraim 391 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: believes smell can literally directly reveal the presence of God. 392 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: God has a smell, you can smell him and that's 393 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: how you know he's there. But it also sort of 394 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: goes the other way. Harvey after this as a section 395 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: on how Efraim believed humans can use smells to commune 396 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: with God. And yet again, this is not uh, this 397 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: is not unique to Ephraim. I mean this is widespread. 398 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: We talked about all the examples of humans using various 399 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: smells to give something to God, to give a sacrifice 400 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: or a gift to God or to communicate with God. 401 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: And here's where there's a little bit of interesting uh 402 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: tension in the Christian history of the use of smells. So, uh, 403 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: Ephraim was living in the fourth century, in the three hundreds, 404 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: and this comes at a turning point for the use 405 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: of incense in Christian worship. Before this period, Christians mostly 406 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: avoided the use of incense. UH, setting themselves apart from 407 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: basically every other religion in the empire, and the Early 408 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: Avoidance of Incense May in fact have been a kind 409 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: of intentional segregating maneuver. It's saying like no, we're different 410 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: from all these other religions because we don't do that 411 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Another problem for the of Incense and Christianity, 412 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: especially in the third century, arose because the burnt offering 413 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: of incense was a was a standard ritual of worship 414 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: of the Roman gods, who the Christians considered the pagan gods, 415 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: and especially of emperor reverence, the reverence for the Roman Emperor. 416 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: So we've talked about this on the show before. There's 417 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: there's a bit of a misperception that it was like 418 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: consistently illegal to be a Christian in the Roman Empire 419 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: before Constantine, and that's not true at all. Like, for 420 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: the most part, Roman authorities really did not care what 421 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: religion you were what God you worshiped. But there were 422 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: brutal persecutions of Christians in periodic outbreaks in the Roman Empire, 423 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: not for their positive belief in Christianity but for their 424 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: refusal to participate in the imperial cult. So this could 425 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: take the form of a kind of loyalty test. This 426 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: was especially bad under the emperor deseus at the beginning 427 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: of the third century. So a Roman Authority might like 428 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: grab some Christians and, you know, bring them in and say, okay, 429 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: we hear you're you're not showing proper fealty to the 430 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: Roman gods and to the emperor. All we need you 431 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: to do is do a little burnt offering, burn some 432 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: incense for the emperor, for the Roman Gods, and then 433 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: you're you'll be fine. Sometimes they would do it, which 434 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: Christians saw when, you know, when some of them did that, 435 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: they saw that as a big betrayal. Some of them 436 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't do it, and then they might be they might 437 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: face really harsh penalties, including being put to death. It's 438 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: worth noting that Roman Pagans viewed the UH. Their refusal 439 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: sometimes to do the offering incance of incence is really confusing, 440 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: like why not just do it? What's the problem? Yeah, 441 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: like it's it might seem a strange hill too, in 442 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: some cases literally die on. But you can certainly see 443 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: how if Christians in the third century are encountering these 444 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: situations where, like they you know, the burning of Incense, 445 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: of an incense offering is what the Romans are trying 446 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: to force you to do or you die, and it 447 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: is the thing that some of you did in order 448 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: to avoid death, but in a way that now makes you, uh, 449 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: shamed and excluded from the Christian community. You can understand 450 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: why they might not think burning in since was cool. Yeah, 451 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: and I mean and certainly you can get into various 452 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: histories of different like fringe groups and uh and belief 453 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: systems that that have set themselves outside of the rest 454 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: of a given culture, and you often enforce those barriers 455 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: by having prohibitions like this in place. Like that, we 456 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: are not going to do the thing that everyone else 457 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: is doing because we are set apart. However, it seems 458 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: like all this changed in the fourth century. So in 459 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: the fourth century, for one thing, you get the Emperor Constantine, 460 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: the first Christian emperor, and this is a period of 461 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: big transition, roughly when Christianity goes from a a sort 462 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: of reviled, large minority religion to suddenly a culturally and 463 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: politically dominant and in vogue religion. And this is concurrent 464 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: with what Harvey Calls A, quote, broader embellishment of Christian 465 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: ceremonial I think this means a sort of in meshing 466 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: of Christian belief with the more mainstream esthetic elements of 467 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: just religion generally as understood in the Roman Empire. So 468 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: this is where you get the kind of mixing of 469 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: the superficial trappings of Roman religion with the core theological 470 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: beliefs of Christianity. And by the fifth century the change 471 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: seems to have been complete and the use of incense 472 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: was just normative for pretty much all Christian worship. So 473 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: e from is writing in the Fourth Century when incense 474 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: usage in Christianity is becoming more popular, and he uses 475 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: incense imagery a lot. UH, from is careful to distinguish 476 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: between incense used in what he calls True Religion, which 477 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: of course for him was Christianity and Judaism, and false religion, 478 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: which for him was everything else. He refers to the 479 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 1: instance offerings of Pagan's interestingly, as quote, foul, gloomy in 480 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: their vapor and loathsome in their odor. And yet uh, 481 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: and yet, he says, of course, in sence burning is 482 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: great in what he thought were the true religions. And 483 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: when incense has a sweet smell, this is because, according 484 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: to Ephrom, Christ intervenes to make it smell good. That 485 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 1: that raises questions. But and he repeatedly uses the image 486 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: of a sensor or Thurible, like we were talking about before, 487 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: as a metaphor for the worship of Christians. To quote 488 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: one of his hymns, he says, come, let us make 489 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: our love a great common sensor. Let us offer up 490 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: our songs and prayers like incense to the one who 491 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: made his cross a sensor to the divinity and offered 492 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: his blood on behalf of us all. So the sensor 493 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: is doing a lot of work in this kind of imagery. 494 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: So are he's saying our love of the divine is 495 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: a sensor that you know, and that kind of fits 496 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: with the church imagery right like that. The you might 497 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: carry a sensor that looks like the church you're in, 498 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: and of course the church is often a metonym for 499 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: the church community. So it's like the church in a 500 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: sense is a sensor and the smoke coming out of 501 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: it as the prayers and the faith and all that. 502 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: But then he also says that Jesus made his cross 503 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: a sensor. Uh, I think I've lost track of what 504 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: the image is doing there, but clearly he's really into 505 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: the idea of of like of faith and love as smells. Yeah, 506 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: so we're needed at least and symbolic religious technology at 507 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: this point. Right now there's all this stuff about theological tension, 508 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: about like whether the burning of incense should be thought of, 509 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: as you know, honoring of God or not, because some 510 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: Christian theologians would say, wait a minute now, uh, we're 511 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: not supposed to be sacrificing to God anymore. Christ was 512 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: the sacrifice, so that's not part of our religion anymore. 513 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: But I guess they were just overruled because like it, 514 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: it became part of what most of the Church did. 515 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: And then, finally, the last thing in Harvey's paper here 516 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: is this whole idea of Ephraim and these other theologians 517 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: talking about smells as having come some kind of saving 518 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: or animating power, like creating stories in which the the 519 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: salvation of Christ, is itself an animating smell. So like 520 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: when the when a Christian dies, according to these theologians, uh, 521 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: you know, the body dies, but then upon the second 522 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: coming of Christ, quote, the wondrous odor of that treasury 523 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: of life flies into the body. So the idea of 524 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: the resurrection is that life returns because animating smells are 525 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: are are sort of injected into the dead body by 526 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: Christ or or by the Holy Spirit. Uh. And this 527 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: goes along with all kinds of stuff. Ef Firm writes 528 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: about how like when you go to heaven, you don't 529 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: actually need to eat bread in heaven, you know you're 530 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: not gonna be hungry because instead of bread there is 531 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: the very fragrance of paradise. You will live on smells alone. 532 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's enough to make you wonder if he 533 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: was a super smeller, if he yeah, it had just 534 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: like heightened sense of smell compared to average people. And that, 535 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: I mean that alone wouldn't account for all of this, 536 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: but perhaps that's sort of uh, played into this. Just 537 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: just hyper obsession with sacred smells. I was wondering about 538 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: that very thing. One this is the very last thing 539 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: I want to mention from this paper, but I thought 540 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: this was interesting too. Uh. So, Harvey described Syriac Christian traditions. 541 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: That's and this is related to from two that said 542 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: that when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden 543 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: of Eden, you know the Garden of Eden story, they 544 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: eat the fruit. No, they weren't supposed to do that. 545 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: They get kicked out. In these Syrian Christian traditions, they 546 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: say it was because the serpent had breathed on Adam 547 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: and Adam became mortal. And quote, Eden could not tolerate 548 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: the stench of mortality. So He after the serpent breathed 549 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: on him, he stunk, he stunk of death, so the 550 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: garden had to vomit him out, and then it was 551 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: the fragrance of life supplied by Christ that reversed this 552 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: curse and frightened away death itself. So it's a parallel 553 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: to the garden. Uh, it said that the grave could 554 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: not tolerate the smell of life, and thus it's spit 555 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: Christ out and he was resurrected. Oh Wow. You know, 556 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder. You know, Terry Jones of 557 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: Monty Python was a pretty bright fell lane and very 558 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: well read, especially when it came to medieval topics. I 559 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: wonder if that any of this played into the bog 560 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: of eternal stench and labyrinth, because this is, you know, 561 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: this idea that if Jareth, the ruler of the realm 562 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: or to cast you out, you would be cast into 563 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: the bog of eternal stench. And of course, if anything 564 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: in the in the bog there touches you, you will 565 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 1: smell bad for the rest of your life. Uh So, 566 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. I wonder if there's any connection there. 567 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: Maybe not, maybe it's that, but I wouldn't put it 568 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: past Terry Jones. But that's interesting. I didn't make that connection, 569 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: but it is interesting how it's reimagining these theological beliefs 570 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, just understanding our basic physiology that, 571 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: like smell, is clearly a sense that is very crucial 572 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: to our discussed reaction and that, like bad smells, can 573 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: easily cause the like the emitic function, you know, the 574 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: desire to vomit and, uh, I don't know where I'm 575 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: going with that, but it makes sense to me. I 576 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: also was wondering. I mean obviously different types of sensory 577 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: hallucinations exist and olfactory hallucinations also exist. Um, but I 578 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: feel like most of the time when I've read about 579 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: olfactory hallucinations, they tend to be negative as opposed to positive. 580 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: They tend to be bad smells, they tend to be 581 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: situations where, instead of smelling flowers, you smell, you know, 582 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: rot as opposed to the reverse or something, or smelling. 583 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: I said it may be the case that exists, but 584 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: I don't think I've read anything about hallucinated pleasant smells. 585 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: But if such a thing did exist, I guess it 586 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility you could have 587 00:33:54,800 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: positive olfactory hallucinations induced by religious experience. Than this kind 588 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: of ties into the next thing I wanted to mention, 589 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: which is a scientific study about the connection between a 590 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: commonly used smell in religious rituals, specifically Frankincense, and pharmacological 591 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: effects in the brain. So this is a study that 592 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: was published in the F A S Eb Journal in 593 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: two thousand eight by Aria Musiaf at all, and it's 594 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: called Incensial Acetate, an incense component ellicit psychoactivity by activating 595 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: trpv three channels in the brain. Okay, so we know 596 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: Frankincense and other incense, you know aromatic smells have been 597 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: used in religious rituals going way back. But this is 598 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: an interesting finding that the smoke of Buzzwellia Resin again 599 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 1: frankincense may not only affect us by habit or by 600 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: learned cognitive association, there may actually be a armacological mechanistic 601 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: effect on the brain as well. Uh, so the authors 602 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: begin by observing you know that people have been burning 603 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: Boswellia resin going back to ancient times for ceremonies of 604 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: all different sorts, and that the smell is often said 605 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: to help people feel spiritual exaltation. This study was designed 606 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: to investigate the neurological and behavioral effects of an organic 607 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: compound called Incenseil Acetate, which is found in some types 608 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: of Frankincense. INSENSEIL ACETATE has had already been shown at 609 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: the time of this study to have some anti inflammatory effects, 610 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: and the authors here we're looking at the effects on 611 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: the central nervous system. One key discovery seems to be 612 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: that Incenseil Acetate is a potent agonist or activator for 613 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: something called the transient receptor potential Valenoid, or TRP v 614 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: three ion channel. Now, the TRP v channels are typically 615 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: used by the skin and other tissues to detect temperature 616 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: changes and warmth, as well as chemical changes that simulate warmth. 617 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: One example is that this is a different one, but 618 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: spicy foods are known to work, at least in part, 619 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: by stimulating the TRP V one channel, which is naturally 620 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: used to detect burning sensations and pain via heat via 621 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: real heat. But you eat some spicy food, the CAPSAS 622 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: and in the spite in the hot peppers will activate 623 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: those trpv one channels and create the the false sensation 624 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: of burning or heat in the mouth. Meanwhile, the authors 625 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: of this study point out that the TRPV three channel 626 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: specifically appears specialized to detect temperatures with a threshold in 627 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: the range of thirty one to thirty nine degrees Celsius, 628 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: which is about eighty eight to one oh two degrees Fahrenheit, 629 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: or roughly the range of human body temperature. And so generally, 630 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: when this ion channel is activated, it is Experien Riens 631 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: by the brain as the feeling of warmth on the 632 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: skin or in the mouth, wherever the wherever it's activated. 633 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: So these trpv three channels are expressed in places like 634 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: the skin, in the mouth, the mouth cavity, of course, 635 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: but strangely they are also expressed in the brain tissue itself. 636 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: And since the body is supposed to always keep the 637 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: brain at a relatively constant temperature, it doesn't really make 638 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: sense for the brain tissue to be sensitive to temperature changes. 639 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: So what is the TRPV three channel doing in there? 640 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: What's it? Why is it in the brain tissue? At 641 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: the time of this study the answer to the question 642 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 1: was unknown and I don't know whether there's been much 643 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: development on that since then, but this study itself might 644 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: help provide at least one small clue, and it goes 645 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: like this. So you've got this compound, instance all Acetate, 646 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: found in frank instance, and it is shown in this 647 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: study to be an agonist or activator for the TRP 648 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: v Three Channel. It's activating these receptors that trigger are 649 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: a feeling of warmth, as well as perhaps having other 650 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: unknown effects within the brain. Could we look at behavior 651 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: of animals that are stimulated with this compound in order 652 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: to see what those effects might be? Well, what do 653 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: you know? They did that and yes, there are some 654 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: effects in wild type mice. They found that Incenseil Acetate 655 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: was shown to reduce anxiety and depression. Quote, at fifty 656 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: milligrams per kilogram, I exerted a potent anxiolytic like effect, 657 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: meeting anxiety quelling causing mice to spend significantly more time 658 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: in the aversive open arms of an elevated plus maze. Uh. Now, 659 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: rob we've talked about the elevated plus maze test on 660 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: the show before. That's a test commonly used to try 661 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: to investigate Um anxiety, or the lack thereof in animals, 662 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: where they're placed in a condition where they, you know, 663 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: they can explore different parts of of of a simple 664 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: cross shaped maze. Some parts of that maze are are covered, 665 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: they're sheltered, so they create a feeling of safety or 666 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: shelter for the animal. Other parts are uncovered and so 667 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: generally when an animal spends more time exploring the uncovered parts, 668 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: they are showing less anxiety. You know, they're less worried 669 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: about what's going to happen to them and they're more 670 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: willing to engage in full exploratory behaviors without the without 671 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,959 Speaker 1: worries about harm. Uh, and this is used to test 672 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: various kinds of anxiety drugs that are designed to reduce anxiety. 673 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,919 Speaker 1: But it appears that Frankinsense also will call, at least 674 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: at this dose, will cause mice to have less anxiety 675 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: about these uncovered, exposed spaces. And they also showed in 676 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: some different tests that the compound had antidepressant effects on 677 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: swimming tests and mice. And they double checked this mechanism 678 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: by trying to reproduce these results on mice that had 679 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: been genetically altered to have their trpv three receptors knocked out, 680 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: and the frankinstance compound had no effect on those. So 681 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: it looks like it is indeed working via trpv three. Now, 682 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,439 Speaker 1: the study was in mice and the same thing might 683 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: not hold true for humans, or it might not hold 684 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: true at the doses one would be likely to receive 685 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: just from being in a room that is, you know, 686 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 1: lightly smoked with Frankinsense. But it does at least raise 687 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: this interesting question. Is Frankinsense in particular selected for religious 688 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,720 Speaker 1: rituals not only because of tradition and the pleasant smell, 689 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: but because of some kind of possible downstream pharmacological effects 690 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: associated with activation of the TRPV three channel? And these 691 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,439 Speaker 1: these again, could include sensations of warmth as well as 692 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: regulation of emotional states, particularly anxiety and depression. This is fascinating. 693 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, on one level, potentially good news 694 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: for the church mice in general. Yeah, with nothing else, 695 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: but but yeah, like trying to imagine, like how this 696 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: could feed into ideas and rituals revolving around frankinsense. I 697 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: mean again, obviously church members at large or not huffing 698 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: Frankincense uh in in in their worship. And also we're 699 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: talking about we're often talking about rather large spaces with 700 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: just kind of wafting about. But if at some point 701 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: somebody in a position of sort of spiritual, theolotological power, 702 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,879 Speaker 1: uh had been in a more confined space with this 703 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: and had experienced some of these Um sensations whilst uh, 704 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, breathing in some frankincense saturated air, you could 705 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: see how that might lead into uh emphasises that are 706 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: placed on on Frankincense moving forward. This absolutely got me 707 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: wondering about formative experience in which I wonder if one 708 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,479 Speaker 1: St Ephraim maybe got into a little hot box room, 709 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: got very, you know, a confined space, and went hard 710 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: on the Frankincense and that did something to him. Yeah, 711 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: he emerges believing that he can not only metaphorically but 712 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: literally smell the presence of God. Yeah, this is this 713 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: is fascinating. I guess I'd love to hear from frankinsince 714 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: enthusiasts out there, UM, and also, I guess in general, 715 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: it would be interesting to hear from people whose religious 716 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 1: practices do have a a dedicated incense or specific odor 717 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: like like. Certainly I can think of like Asheram type environments. 718 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: I've been in uh you know where there is there's 719 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: incense burned and I don't even know what specific incense 720 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: would be, but it does contribute to that space. But 721 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: I think back on growing up in a like a 722 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: Protestant church environment and I don't I would be hard 723 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: pressed to say what the smell, but the odor of 724 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: the sacred spaces was. You know, it was just like 725 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: what vacuumed carpet, freshly vacuum carpet maybe something like that, 726 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: something very neutral and almost invisible, air conditioning perhaps, or Um, 727 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: I guess, kind of the wood of the pews, that 728 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But nothing. It's like that is like 729 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: literally piped in or literally burnt and created in the space. 730 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I've been in some Protestant churches that 731 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: almost had new car smell. I don't know how to 732 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: explain what that is. New Car smell is interesting to 733 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: think of in terms of like religious experience, at least 734 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: within the uh the sort of pseudo religious experience in 735 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 1: the secular capitalist world of consumerist worship of the automobile. 736 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: I guess sometimes there is that new church smell sometimes 737 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: that you do encounter that right where it's just like 738 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: the new construction smell, new paint, that sort of thing. Yeah, 739 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 1: now one one last thing I wanted to touch on here. UH, 740 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: would be remiss if we were talking about Thuribles and 741 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,439 Speaker 1: we did not mention the UH, the the Botea fumeriou. 742 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: This is the largest of all thuribles. It is found 743 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: in Spain's Santiago de Compostela Cathedral, and this is literally translated. 744 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: It is the smoke expeller. It is a rate. Uh. 745 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: Is a huge eight M or hundred and seventy six 746 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: pound thurible. That's stay. If it's it's standing upright on 747 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: the ground. It would stand one point uh, six meters, 748 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: or five ft two in height. So it's like the 749 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: size of a person. Is this the height of a person? 750 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: And Uh, and therefore it's too large for one individual 751 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,760 Speaker 1: to swing. No, instead it swings from a pulley system 752 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: on the ceiling like a great pendulum through the space here, 753 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: and you can look up videos of it and it's 754 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: it's pretty intimidating. It's this silver finished, brass, bronze comet 755 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: burning its way back and forth through the church. You 756 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: can imagine like if someone were to walk in front 757 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: of this and they would just be completely walloped. Um, 758 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 1: it's UH, yeah, it's it's pretty amazing. It's I think 759 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 1: the current one only goes back a hundred, seventy one years, 760 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,879 Speaker 1: but the use of the pulley system and the use 761 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,760 Speaker 1: of a large thurible in this church goes back centuries, 762 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: to I think the fourteen hundreds, and there have been 763 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: some notable accidents over the years. Every now and then 764 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,879 Speaker 1: you know something's gonna go awry. I think in six 765 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: two and it allegedly flew out of a window, but 766 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: nobody was hurt. Um, this is I mean, I love 767 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: this thing, but also I just got sad thinking about 768 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: how I'm positive that Dan Brown has written a novel 769 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: in which someone is murdered with this object. It just 770 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: has to be. Yeah, it seems like that would be 771 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: an irresistible scene for for a novel like that. Like 772 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: maybe that's how you you do in your villain, or 773 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: maybe that's the sort of James Bond esque scheme that 774 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: your villain has to take out, uh, your your hero. 775 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 1: What would be the plot to be like? Oh, no, 776 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,360 Speaker 1: the Dalai Lama has been crushed to death by a 777 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: giant Thurible and it's up to our symbologist, who only 778 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: as twenty four hours, to catch the killer before the 779 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,439 Speaker 1: volcano erupts. That I don't know. I guess it would 780 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,919 Speaker 1: also be irresistible because I think in Bertaccos fucos pendle 781 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: Um somebody ends up hanging from the pendulum or something. 782 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,359 Speaker 1: It's been a very long tent since I read that one. 783 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: So it would make sense give, you know, all this 784 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: Dan Brown stuff, since the sort of sense to sort 785 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: of come in the wake of Umberto Eco. It would 786 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: make sense that that it would go in that direction. 787 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: Now I actually was researching another angle on sensors for incense, 788 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,280 Speaker 1: and it turned out to be a pretty exciting area 789 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: of religious technology bleeding into the history of technology in general. 790 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna set that aside. We'll come back to that. 791 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: So if you haven't had enough incense yet, don't worry. 792 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: There's going to essentially be more incense content coming out, 793 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: but instead of it being incense part three, it's going 794 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: to be a separate discussion. That just involved since, since 795 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: now we didn't touch on anywhere near all the various 796 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: incense traditions from cultures around the world. They're marvelous examples 797 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,360 Speaker 1: that I know I was running across from parts of Africa, 798 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: Mezzo in South America, the Middle East and much more 799 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: are so please you're right in if there's a specific 800 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: example you'd like to highlight, something that's part of your 801 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: practice or culture, because we'd love to hear from you all. 802 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out 803 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: other episodes of stuff to blow your mind, our core 804 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the stuff to 805 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: blow your mind podcast feed, you can find that wherever 806 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: you get your podcast episodes. On Monday's we do listen mail. 807 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do an artifact or monster fact, and 808 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: this week's, by the way, in case you missed it, 809 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: is incense themed, so go back and listen to that 810 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: one if you missed it. And on Fridays we do 811 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: weird how cinema. That's our time to set aside most 812 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: serious concerns and just talk about a weird film, huge things, 813 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: as always, to our excellent audio producer, Seth Nicholas Johnson. 814 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 815 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 816 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,359 Speaker 1: a topic for the future or just to say hello, 817 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,319 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to blow 818 00:47:51,360 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: your mind dot com. Stuff to blow your mind is 819 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: production of I heart radio. For more podcasts for my 820 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,800 Speaker 1: heart radio, visit the I heart radio APP, apple podcasts 821 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows.