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Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Works and I heart radio and love all

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Speaker 1: things tech. And before I jump into today's topic, first

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Speaker 1: I want to welcome a special guest. I have Annie

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Speaker 1: from Stuff Mom Never Told You right here in the studio.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you for literally sitting still in the studio after

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Speaker 1: just recording an episode of Stuff Mom Never Told You

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Speaker 1: and letting me come in here and record tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like it's my job or something. I

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Speaker 1: was very excited to have this opportunity to have this

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Speaker 1: conversation with you, and also, um, yeah, be beyond tech stuff. Awesome. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you can slum it. Stuff Mom Never Told

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Speaker 1: You It was a phenomenal show and has been ever

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Speaker 1: since its inception. I remember actually being there on the

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Speaker 1: pitch meetings for that show. So it's been fantastic seeing

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Speaker 1: that show grow over the years and evolved. It's been

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Speaker 1: a phenomenal. And again, before we jump into this topic,

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Speaker 1: one thing I want to say at the outset for everybody.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be a very special episode of tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be We're gonna deal with some mature themes, uh,

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Speaker 1: some adult themes. These are all euphemisms. We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about sexuality. We're gonna talk about gender bias. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about double standards. We're gonna be talking specifically

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Speaker 1: about a product that is a sex toy. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about this frankly and honestly because I think

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Speaker 1: it's a very important subject for many reasons. But I

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Speaker 1: wanted to make that clear at the outset just in

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Speaker 1: case there are any listeners out there who are not

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Speaker 1: comfortable with this subject matter. Uh, they feel like that's inappropriate.

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Speaker 1: I'm not passing any judgment whatsoever. I completely understand. So

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Speaker 1: this is a fair warning if you do find those

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Speaker 1: sort of topics uncomfortable, I totally understand. However, I do

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Speaker 1: stress that you should check out stuff Mom never told you,

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Speaker 1: because you will learn very quickly to become comfortable with

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Speaker 1: the subjects because they are important ones, and you'll realize, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: I get it. But I realized that for Tech Stuff audience,

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Speaker 1: that might be asking a lot right of the gate.

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Speaker 1: So now that that's out of the way, what did

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Speaker 1: what brought us here together today? So I went to

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Speaker 1: see E S two thousand nineteen in Las Vegas, Nevada,

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Speaker 1: which I have learned is pronounced Nevada, not not Nevada. No, no,

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Speaker 1: I've been making that mistake for you years, you and

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Speaker 1: most of the country. But the people of the fine

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Speaker 1: state of Nevada will tell you, yes, that you are incorrect.

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Speaker 1: When I went there, one of the stories that popped

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Speaker 1: up was about a product called ose o s E

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Speaker 1: with an accent uh and oh excellent, My my French

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Speaker 1: is not parfit. Unfortunately, that was be good though I think,

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Speaker 1: I think and blame, but Francai not so well. So

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Speaker 1: at the c E S there was this ose product,

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Speaker 1: which some people have described as a vibrator, although the

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Speaker 1: creators would quickly point out that that is far too

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Speaker 1: simple simple a name for this thing. But it's specifically

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Speaker 1: a sex toy marketed for women, designed by women. And

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Speaker 1: they had submitted this product to the Consumer Technology Association,

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Speaker 1: that's the organization that throws c E s for consideration

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Speaker 1: for what is called an innovation award. They got one.

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Speaker 1: Then they got a letter saying, just kidding, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to give you that award, we're taking it back.

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Speaker 1: And then also, oh and by the way, you aren't

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Speaker 1: allowed to show this product at c E S. And

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Speaker 1: that brought up this enormous conversation about what actually happened.

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Speaker 1: Who's in the wrong? Was this say about the not

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Speaker 1: just the technology, but the attitudes towards sexuality, specifically women's sexuality? Um?

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Speaker 1: Are there double standards in play? And so we're gonna

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Speaker 1: suss all that out. Annie, And I asked you on

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Speaker 1: here because I wanted someone who has credibility to be

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Speaker 1: on this show for once. Well, thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that. UM, I have never been to see yes,

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Speaker 1: and I know you're kind of old hat with it.

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Speaker 1: Um was this something because from what I understand, they

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Speaker 1: found out like a month later that the award had

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Speaker 1: been rescinded. Right They submitted the the application earlier in

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Speaker 1: UH in two thousands, two thousand eighteen, So this process

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Speaker 1: takes a long time. Obviously, UH companies typically submit these

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Speaker 1: products to the Consumer Technology Association. They, in theory anyway,

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Speaker 1: go through and screen all the products and then all

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Speaker 1: the ones that at least past the initial screening go

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Speaker 1: to an independent review board. They assign a score. Any

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Speaker 1: product that gets a certain score or higher meets a

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Speaker 1: threshold gets the designation of Honoree. Whichever product gets the

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Speaker 1: highest score in its category gets a Best of Innovation award.

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Speaker 1: So there is no limit to the number of honorees.

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Speaker 1: The limit is only based upon the quality of the

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Speaker 1: products that they get. UH. And the companies that submit

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Speaker 1: these no no well ahead of time because they need

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Speaker 1: to be able to market the product as a Best

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Speaker 1: of c E S or an Honoree or whatever. UM.

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Speaker 1: So they had known all the way back in October

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Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen that this was gonna be an Honoree product,

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Speaker 1: But then they got the letter in October That was

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Speaker 1: like a month after they had found out the the award.

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Speaker 1: So I guess they technically learned to the award in

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Speaker 1: September two tho eighteen, get the letter in October two

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Speaker 1: thousand eighteen saying loll just kidding, we're taking it back

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Speaker 1: and uh. And so the news didn't break immediately then,

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Speaker 1: which some people would argue was kind of a publicity stunt,

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Speaker 1: but I would argue that's absolutely what was needed um.

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Speaker 1: The news broke during the show itself because they did

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Speaker 1: show off the OZ at an event called show Stoppers.

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Speaker 1: So CS is this huge, huge event, and there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of little spinoff events that are some of

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Speaker 1: which are directly connected to c e S and some

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Speaker 1: of which are not at all endorsed or sponsored by

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Speaker 1: c e S, but are always part of it, and

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Speaker 1: show Stoppers is one of them. It's an opportunity for

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Speaker 1: some of the smaller exhibitors to get together and show

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Speaker 1: off their products and be seen. And so while OSE

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Speaker 1: was banned from ce S because show Stoppers was not

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Speaker 1: an official ce S event, they still could exhibit there.

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Speaker 1: So they did go there, and that's where the story

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Speaker 1: really started to get traction because this was the OS

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Speaker 1: is the very first product from the company Laura Dick

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Speaker 1: de Carlo, which is that that's the name of the

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Speaker 1: company that produces it. Um It's the first product they've

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Speaker 1: ever made, so they didn't have a lot of press

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Speaker 1: attention leading into this. This is kind of in a

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Speaker 1: way you could argue ultimately it's probably the best thing

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Speaker 1: that could have happened for that company because it brought

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Speaker 1: so much attention to it and there it's the subject

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Speaker 1: of eight patents, right, like any robotics and bioimicry. Because

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Speaker 1: obviously the team at De Carlo wanted to know what

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Speaker 1: reason are you sending this award? Yeah, And they got

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Speaker 1: a couple of different responses, uh, one of which was infuriating. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: both of them, I would argue are infuriating, but the

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Speaker 1: first one in the initial letter that was sent to

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Speaker 1: them that told them that the award had been rescinded.

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Speaker 1: There's a passage. I'll quote it directly because I want

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Speaker 1: to make sure I get it right. This is what

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Speaker 1: the ct A wrote back. They said, entries deemed by

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Speaker 1: c t A in their soul discretion to be immoral, obscene, indecent, profane,

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Speaker 1: or not in keeping with c t a s image

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Speaker 1: will be disqualified. C TA reserves the right and its

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Speaker 1: sole discretion to disqualify any entry at any time which,

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Speaker 1: in c t a's opinion, endangers the safety or well

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Speaker 1: being of any person or fails to comply with these

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Speaker 1: official rules. End quote. That is a loaded statement if

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Speaker 1: I ever heard one. Right. So, women's sexual pleasure is

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Speaker 1: either immoral, profane, yeah, or not in keeping with CTIAS image,

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Speaker 1: which I would argue is probably the one that is

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Speaker 1: the most true. But in a way that is is

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Speaker 1: me passing judgment on C t A, not on women's sexuality.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's get a little broader picture here for

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Speaker 1: a second. Um, C E S and sexuality are not

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Speaker 1: separate things and never the twain shall meet. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it is totally not the case. From the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 1: until two thousand eleven, the two the C S event

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Speaker 1: happened in conjunction with another big event in Las Vegas,

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Speaker 1: the Adult Video Network Awards or an Adult Video a

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Speaker 1: v N show. So this was a show in which

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Speaker 1: adult content, essentially pornography if you prefer that term, was

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Speaker 1: going on and frequently you if you had a badge

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Speaker 1: to one, if you had a badge specifically to C

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Speaker 1: E S, it would get you entry into the other

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Speaker 1: conference as well. And there were lots of comments about

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Speaker 1: this about how the target audience for both conferences tended

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Speaker 1: to be the same, which was mostly straight dudes, um

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Speaker 1: and that. But anyway that there was no real there

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Speaker 1: was no real shying away from that. It's not like

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Speaker 1: they weren't officially handshaking being buddy buddy about the two conferences,

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Speaker 1: but they also weren't shying away from it at all.

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Speaker 1: And the only reason the two conferences went their separate

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Speaker 1: ways and now are scheduled at different times of the

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Speaker 1: year or different times in January is because they were

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Speaker 1: just running out of space. It wasn't so much that

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Speaker 1: it was oh no, we can't be associated with them,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to well the adult video guys were saying,

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Speaker 1: the real problem is that c S is jacking up

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Speaker 1: all the prices of all the hotel rooms in all

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Speaker 1: of Las Vegas, so people can't afford to come to

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Speaker 1: our conference. So we're gonna hold it a different time

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Speaker 1: where the hotel rates will be back down to normal.

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Speaker 1: So I had nothing to do with being obscene or profane.

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Speaker 1: So the question then is why is this product viewed

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Speaker 1: as that? Especially if you were to walk around c

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Speaker 1: e S. Especially if you were to walk around and

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Speaker 1: really pay attention, you would find that there was a

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Speaker 1: meeting room off the main hall and c e S

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Speaker 1: where Naughty America was showing off a virtual reality application

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Speaker 1: in which you could view pornography and virtual reality, and

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Speaker 1: they were giving live demonstrations of this. At CES. There

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Speaker 1: was so Lerna, which was a sex robot meant for men,

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Speaker 1: essentially a very advanced sex doll um. And there are

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Speaker 1: other aids as well that mostly you could argue, even

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Speaker 1: those that are intended to be used by women are

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Speaker 1: done so in a way that kind of reflects back

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Speaker 1: toward men. Yeah, those all seemed to be fine. They

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Speaker 1: were all allowed to be shown. The OZ was not right.

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Speaker 1: And I know that CS until pretty recently, right had

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Speaker 1: the not that this is exactly on the same level,

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Speaker 1: but they had booth babes. Oh yes, yeah, in fact

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Speaker 1: they still do, but it's not it's not nearly as

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Speaker 1: prevalent as it used to be. But yes, that used

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Speaker 1: to be that if you walked in. When I first

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Speaker 1: went to ce S in two thousand eight, it was

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Speaker 1: a very common practice to employ women, usually models, typically

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Speaker 1: wearing revealing clothing um for really just the purpose of

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Speaker 1: enticing people into the booth a slee men. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: it was it was typically these women would have at least,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of a bird's eye overview of what

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Speaker 1: was in the booth, so that they could at least

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Speaker 1: give a very shallow spiel of what was happening there.

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Speaker 1: But rarely was it the case that they were informed

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Speaker 1: enough to really talk about the products, so they were

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Speaker 1: there almost like set decoration. Uh. It was very much

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Speaker 1: an objectification kind of thing. Uh. There were exceptions. There

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Speaker 1: were some people who employed what would folks would refer

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Speaker 1: to as booth babes, and they were incredibly well informed

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Speaker 1: and good on them, fantastic. Still was a little weird

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Speaker 1: that they're using women in revealing clothing to try and

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Speaker 1: get people to come into a booth. Um. I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you how many times I was trying to get

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Speaker 1: from point A to point B in a conference center

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Speaker 1: and couldn't get through the hall that I was in

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Speaker 1: because there was just an enormous crowd stopped to taking

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Speaker 1: so they can take photos of booth abes posing. Um,

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Speaker 1: I know this will shock you. The ed Hardy booth

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Speaker 1: one year was particularly bad about that. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that is less prevalent today. There are still booths

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Speaker 1: that use women uh to try and entice people to

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Speaker 1: come in, but it's not nearly as overt and it's

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Speaker 1: not nearly as prevalent. So that's largely been cut back,

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Speaker 1: but it's still something you see occasionally and in in

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Speaker 1: these are current times. UM. Well, one I probably hear

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Speaker 1: from listeners so much about this UM tech company ABC

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Speaker 1: has done X y Z sexist thing. UM. The culture

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Speaker 1: is hostile towards women and i'n binary folks. UM forces

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Speaker 1: them out and it's infuriating because it is a self

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Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy. It maintains this tatus quo so many stories

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Speaker 1: and technology and entertainment gone. Yeah, but also CS because

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Speaker 1: of this climate we're in where you will get called

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Speaker 1: out for this stuff now, Like they in sen they

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Speaker 1: had an all male lineup of keynote speakers UM, and

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Speaker 1: that led to the hashtag CS so male and also

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Speaker 1: these terms like programmer and bro topia. So in your experience,

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Speaker 1: is it I'm sure there's probably data somewhere, but is

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Speaker 1: it mostly men? Okay? Let me put to you this way. Okay.

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Speaker 1: One of the long standing jokes, and it's not really

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Speaker 1: a joke, but it's kind of like the trope is

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Speaker 1: that ce S is a conference where it's one of

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Speaker 1: the few places where you're going to have an enormous

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Speaker 1: group of people and there's always a line for the

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Speaker 1: men's room and not one for the ladies room. So

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Speaker 1: you get immediately what that means, right, immediately understand you're thinking, oh, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that tells me what's happening here is like and you'll

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Speaker 1: I remember talking with so Press gets real chummy chummy

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Speaker 1: at CES, you know, because we all end up working

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Speaker 1: with each other. I talked with a lot of women

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Speaker 1: impress over the last twelve years of covering C E

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Speaker 1: S and I remember multiple times where they said, like,

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Speaker 1: the one thing I like about this show is I

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Speaker 1: never have to wait if I need to go to

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Speaker 1: the bathroom. I just there's never a line like that's

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Speaker 1: the one good thing. And I'm thinking, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was like ha ha ha at the time, and then

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Speaker 1: as time has gone on and I've become more as

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Speaker 1: the kids say, woke, I thought, hole, that was more

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Speaker 1: of a warning red flag that I should have really

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Speaker 1: paid attention to. That wasn't so much a you know,

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Speaker 1: here's something funny about the show, but rather uh this

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Speaker 1: is this literally is one of the few positive things

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Speaker 1: I can say about this experience from from the perspective

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Speaker 1: of a woman. And the more I paid attention and

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Speaker 1: the more I stepped outside of who I am as

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Speaker 1: just a boring straight white dude. Uh, the more I

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Speaker 1: began to appreciate that, but it does require that you

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Speaker 1: take if you're like me, it does require that you

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Speaker 1: take yourself out of that. The state of Georgia is

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Speaker 1: still a state where as far as I know, where

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Speaker 1: sex toys have to still be called adult novelties. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: obscenity laws, Yeah, I think it was. It prevented storage

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Speaker 1: from selling sex toys until a few years ago they

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Speaker 1: sold novelty items. Or I think this is really telling

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Speaker 1: marital aids. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the state I

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Speaker 1: grew up in, So you know, it's it's it's taking

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Speaker 1: a long personal journey of growth for me to get

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Speaker 1: to the point where I can have at least an

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Speaker 1: appreciation of what is happening. Not it's still not directly

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Speaker 1: affecting me um in that sense, which again is a

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Speaker 1: reason why I wanted to have somebody else on this

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Speaker 1: show to talk about this topic. Hey, it's Jonathan from

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Speaker 1: the Future breaking into Jonathan from the past, and I'm interrupting,

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Speaker 1: probably me, but possibly Annie. Either way, We're going to

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Speaker 1: be right back with more of this conversation. But first,

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Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. Another

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Speaker 1: thing that kind of gears back into this is, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I said that the initial response was saying

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Speaker 1: this obscenity thing, and obviously that needed to be walked

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Speaker 1: back on right away or else that was going to

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Speaker 1: be the worst optics in the world. And not like

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can't you can never unsay stuff, so

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Speaker 1: it's still really bad optics. But there was a subsequent

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Speaker 1: letter that came from Gary Shapiro, who's the president of

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Speaker 1: c T A and UM. One of the executive vice presidents,

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Speaker 1: Karen ch I believe, wrote a letter and they said

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Speaker 1: in that one not that this was an obscene or

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Speaker 1: profane product, but rather the reason that they rescinded the

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Speaker 1: award was because the product did not meet the qualifications

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Speaker 1: of the category to which it had been submitted, Because

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Speaker 1: there are twenty eight, at least in nineteen there were

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Speaker 1: twenty eight different categories for Innovation Awards, and Ose was

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Speaker 1: submitted in the Robotics and Drone category, which, when you

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Speaker 1: first think about it, you know, if you if you're

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Speaker 1: told the oversimplified story of this is a vibrator that

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Speaker 1: was submitted to Robotics and Drone, your first thought is

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Speaker 1: like well, yeah, that doesn't that doesn't seem to fit.

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Speaker 1: But in fact, one, it's far more complicated than a vibrator.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't vibrate. It has all these motions that are

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Speaker 1: meant to mimic human motions. The one of the purpose,

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Speaker 1: the stated purpose of the OSE is to create a

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Speaker 1: blended orgasm, and in fact that the founder of Laura

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Speaker 1: de Carlos, says that she's very up front. She says,

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Speaker 1: I'm working to perfect the female orgasm. That's what I'm

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Speaker 1: looking to do. And this is to be a product

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Speaker 1: where you don't have to use your hands. It's mimicking

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Speaker 1: human motion. It's meant to mimic up partner. It's supposed

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Speaker 1: to UH. It has all these complicated things like it has.

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Speaker 1: It has a high end it, it's got uh, it's

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Speaker 1: got high tech materials in it, it's got robotics all

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Speaker 1: through the design of this product. They have a PhD

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Speaker 1: in robotics who worked on this, so they said that

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Speaker 1: it obviously should qualify. And I actually went back and

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Speaker 1: looked at earlier recipients of the Robotics and Drone honorees,

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Speaker 1: and in one of those honorees was a lidar sensor,

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Speaker 1: which in itself is not a robot. It's not a drone.

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Speaker 1: It's a component. Now it's it's an important component. Light.

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Speaker 1: Our sensors allow robots to detect the range between them

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Speaker 1: and other objects, and they can do it very very quickly.

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Speaker 1: It's what autonomous cars use as part of their systems

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Speaker 1: to detect the environment around them. So very important. But

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Speaker 1: it's not a robot, it's not a drone. It's a component.

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Speaker 1: And yet this other device, which you would argue this

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Speaker 1: seems to fit in robotics way more than a sensor would,

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Speaker 1: is somehow disqualified. So it still doesn't seem to be

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Speaker 1: a satisfactory reason for and it certainly doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be a satisfactory reason to say, not only were we

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Speaker 1: taking your reward away, we aren't allowing you to to

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Speaker 1: exhibit at c S right. And I mean they went through,

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Speaker 1: like you said, they had to go through this panel

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Speaker 1: of judges and they all said, oh, yeah, it qualifies.

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Speaker 1: And like I said earlier, it's the subject of eight

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Speaker 1: pending patents for robotics, biomimicry, and engineering. That doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like it's something that is just a simple device. And

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Speaker 1: you know ce s is no shortage of the same

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Speaker 1: thing a billion times over. And simple gadgets. I mean

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Speaker 1: you see them everywhere, and some of them still are

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Speaker 1: considered honorease because they fall into whatever the category is.

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Speaker 1: I would argue, if in fact they genuinely think that

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Speaker 1: this doesn't fit in robotics and drone, that perhaps what

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Speaker 1: needs to happen. First of all, I disagree that that

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Speaker 1: isn't a valid answer. I reject that, But if you

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Speaker 1: have to go with that, I would say there's a

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Speaker 1: very real need to create a category specifically for health

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Speaker 1: and sexuality that is called for that. I think because

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Speaker 1: these products do exist on the show floor, like again,

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Speaker 1: mostly geared with men in mind at least at some

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Speaker 1: in some way, shape or form, and if they're if

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Speaker 1: those are allowed, I cannot understand what the justification is

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Speaker 1: for denying this other one. Right, And this kind of

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Speaker 1: gets to that bigger issue that's not This isn't a

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Speaker 1: tech issue. This is a culture issue of viewing women's

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Speaker 1: sexuality and sexual pleasure as being taboo. Yeah, this is huge,

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Speaker 1: It is huge. I have a kind of joined universe

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Speaker 1: of horror movies that almost all of them are male writers,

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Speaker 1: struggling with their fear of female sexuality. Oh sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I love to talk about that one one day.

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Speaker 1: That would be I wish I could talk about that

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Speaker 1: on this show, Different past, it's a different podcast, but

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Speaker 1: as someone who loves horror movies and also loves the

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Speaker 1: social commentary that is in there, yeah, like, and I

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Speaker 1: think of ones that try to treat it in a

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Speaker 1: way how I'm going off on attention, but we'll get

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Speaker 1: back to it, don't worry. But I think of ones

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Speaker 1: to try and treat in a way that is more aware,

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Speaker 1: like it follows, I would argue, is a little closer

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Speaker 1: to being more aware because it's treating this, uh, this

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Speaker 1: idea of sexuality and almost like treating like a like

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Speaker 1: a paranormal um entity as almost like a sexually transmitted disease.

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Speaker 1: I think that that one is probably a little better

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Speaker 1: than say things like car which I think still is

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Speaker 1: not the worst the worst. Uh Why am I trying

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Speaker 1: to say it's not. It's not the absolute worst version

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Speaker 1: of viewing women's sexuality as being this kind of related

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Speaker 1: to this kind of thing of of either being unclean

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Speaker 1: or being taboo. But it's closer because you know, you've

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Speaker 1: got the whole menstruation aspect of carry that's in there. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: back to this other topic. So this is something that

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Speaker 1: is clearly think it's clearly seen beyond tech and for

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Speaker 1: women this is not a surprise. For for men like me,

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Speaker 1: you might think like, oh, yeah, I never really thought

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Speaker 1: of it that way, because again, it never directly affected me.

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Speaker 1: But this is this is something that is getting more

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Speaker 1: and more attention as women are able to assert themselves

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Speaker 1: more and more, and we're starting to see that trend

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Speaker 1: change where that we're seeing less suppression of that voice

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Speaker 1: I got. I would say that we're seeing more of

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Speaker 1: this despite to men, as opposed to because men are

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Speaker 1: giving women space. It's more that it's because women are

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Speaker 1: taking space, which is good but also sad that it

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Speaker 1: has to happen. Sad in the sense that you know,

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Speaker 1: guys like me aren't aren't making more room. But um yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about that a bit. So the implication to

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Speaker 1: me is that if if a device is ultimately intended

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Speaker 1: to enhance the sexual pleasure of a man, that's fine, yes,

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Speaker 1: But if it was only for a woman, which you

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Speaker 1: could also says, since the message if it's to eliminate

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Speaker 1: the man's role in in providing sexual pleasure to a woman.

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Speaker 1: That's not cool. Yeah. That founder of DeCarlo, Laura Haddock,

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Speaker 1: she said, you cannot pretend to be unbiased if you

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Speaker 1: allow a sex robot in shape of an unrealistic female body,

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Speaker 1: but not a vagina focused robotic massager for blended orgasm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's yeah, And I think that's pretty clear

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Speaker 1: now to be totally fair to all parties. Uh, the

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Speaker 1: ct A has not really commented on this very much.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I tried looking a lot to see about

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Speaker 1: any follow up from this, because there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of media attention in the immediate uh fall out of

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Speaker 1: the the announcement that oh, by the way, we were invited,

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Speaker 1: but then they revoked our invitation and I couldn't find anything. Um, So,

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Speaker 1: if there are any truly ethical or legitimate complaints on

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Speaker 1: the part of c t A, they have not been

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Speaker 1: shared publicly. So we are left to lean what we

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Speaker 1: can from the letters that were sent to Laura de Carlo,

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Speaker 1: and those are the ones that seem pretty damning with this,

429
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: And UM, I'm curious, what when I asked you to

430
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: do this and you started looking into it. What were

431
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: some of your reactions, Oh, not surprised. Um, it's so

432
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: much of in the words of past stuff I've never

433
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: told you co host host Caroline, the female orgasm is

434
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: more regulated in this country than almost anything, um, and

435
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: that we have a long history of that. Until like

436
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, doctors and men in general in

437
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: Europe and the US thought women did not experience sexual

438
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: desires or pleasure. Yeah, that's recent, and that's where the

439
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: whole hysteria, genital massage UM, doctors complaining of cramped hands.

440
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: That's the only reason we have vibrators is because male

441
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: doctors we're tired of giving genital massages. UM. And at

442
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: the time masturbation was called self abuse, so you didn't

443
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: really have any other option. And you can argue that

444
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: a lot of these topics are still very largely taboo.

445
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's this is one of those things where

446
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: I think, only recently I would be able to have

447
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: this conversation with you and not feel like I was

448
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: doing something wrong. Um. And it wasn't because of any

449
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: intrinsic thing with the subject. It was rather this cultural

450
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: belief that has been instilled in me. You know, I'm

451
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: I'm a generation older, well not quite a generation, but

452
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: I'm older than you are any significantly older. Because we

453
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: had a conversation earlier that that were I had been

454
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: married for several years and you were talking about being

455
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: in middle school and I was like, well, okay, but

456
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: I come from a generation where it is still kind

457
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: of it's a foreign thought to me to be able

458
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: to have these sort of conversations frankly and uh and

459
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: not feel like I'm doing something wrong. But I've been

460
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: seeing that growing trend where people are embracing sexuality. They're

461
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: embracing this and there's sex positivity has become an enormously

462
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: powerful movement, and it still has a long way to go, obviously,

463
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: but it's miles beyond what it was when I was

464
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: your age. And uh, So this has been a sort

465
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: of a transformative experience that I've I've managed to to

466
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: witness in my own lifetime. I also, outside of my

467
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: work here at how stuff works. I'm a medievalist. So

468
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: for me, I think back to the rise of the

469
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: Puritanical era, which you know, you have had Catholicism, you

470
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: had the Protestantism, then you had the outgrowth of Puritanism.

471
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: From Protestantism and the Puritans. The Puritanical view was essentially

472
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: anything anything related to pleasure was considered a distraction from

473
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: your devotion to God and that therefore was sinful. And

474
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: a lot of that has gone into becoming the groundwork

475
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: for American morality and American social mores. Because again, the Puritans,

476
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: a lot of them were the people who fled England

477
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: from from persecution in England because everyone in England got

478
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: fed up with them, so they fled to America, to

479
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 1: the New World. And so while I wouldn't think that

480
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: American culture today is particularly Puritanical, there's still a lot

481
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: of holdovers in that in our culture. And I would

482
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: say that this particular story really played that out on

483
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: a specific stage, the tech stage. Yeah. So um yeah,

484
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: not to be t m I, but I didn't know

485
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: women could masturbate until college college, so we don't talk

486
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: about it, we're embarrassed to bring it up. But one

487
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: third of American women own a vibrator. And again, the

488
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: device that we're talking about is not a vibrator, but

489
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: it does have to do with sexual pleasure for female

490
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: non binary folks. So you can kind of extrapolate the

491
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: conversations we have around vibrators to this. Um. But if

492
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: you look at so going back to that whole marital

493
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: aid thing. Okay, so back in the eighteen and early

494
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, sex toys, which by itself, if you think

495
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: about that term already says that this is kind of

496
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: a frivolous, wasteful activity, that this is not in any

497
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: way inherent to someone's health. Right, And you would hear

498
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: from more recent authority that sexual pleasure and health are

499
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: very much they're they're all part of the same umbrella. Yeah,

500
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: and not not like, oh, this is just for fun times,

501
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: like this doesn't mean anything, This doesn't contribute to your

502
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: well being in any meaningful way. Yeah. And I am

503
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: a huge advocate for sex education, such a huge advocate,

504
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: but I do think that the little sex education we

505
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: do get in this country, or at least in most

506
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: of the country, UM, it's focused on fearmongering. Of these

507
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: are the diseases you could get, you could get pregnant.

508
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: We should be talking about when it's when sex is

509
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: done well and people consent and your adults, it's pleasurable.

510
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: It should be pleasurable. We never talked about I can't

511
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: imagine hearing that, Yeah, that's what it's gotten to the

512
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: point where it's so taboo. I mean, it's not gone

513
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: to the point it's been this way for for decades,

514
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: for centuries, but it's it's at the point where if

515
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: you try and imagine that scenario, like you you first,

516
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure you put yourself in your own shoes back

517
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: when you were in middle school or high school, and

518
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: you think, all right, well, I'm in health class and

519
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: we're hitting that sex said block of content, and you

520
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: imagine what your reaction would have been like had that

521
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: discussion started up. And the first thing you think is

522
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: everyone being immature and giggling and not being able and

523
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: blushing and not being able to like just wanting to

524
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: be anywhere else than where you were. And that's because

525
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: we have this cultural taboo against sexuality. It's not again,

526
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: it's not inherent in the subject itself that if we

527
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,239
Speaker 1: were able, if we were able to change that, uh,

528
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: that set of more rais and beliefs and values and

529
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: our perceptions, that we could get to a point where

530
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: you could have this conversation. And I'm sure there's always

531
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: going to be someone who's from a household that is

532
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: more conservative or more restrictive or whatever. That still feels

533
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: like this is an inappropriate or uncomfortable topic. But we

534
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: could get to a point where you can have that

535
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: sort of conversation. I think it's a very important conversation

536
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: in the in the wake of all the stories we hear,

537
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: many of them the text fear of harassment and worse,

538
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: a lot of that deals you could trace that right

539
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: back to a lack of education, which leads also to

540
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: a lack of empathy. And uh, you get this this

541
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: uh reinforced sense of entitlement, especially among straight dudes. You know,

542
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: they everything in our society establishes the straight dude as

543
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: the norm, and then everything else is a deviation from

544
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: the norm, and the norm gets everything and the more

545
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: deep you deviate from the norm, the less you get.

546
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: So as the norm, you have an expectation for sexual pleasure,

547
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: You have an expectation to get it when you want it,

548
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: from who you want it. This is me making like

549
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: the most extreme case for that. But that that that's

550
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: kind of the problem we have to tackle, and again

551
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: one that ends up being illustrated by this case we're

552
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: talking about. I know that we're arranging why and follow

553
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: for tech stuff. But the important thing for me is

554
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: one it relates back to the specific story and what

555
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: happened to It relates back to the concept of inclusion

556
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: and diversity in technology in general. We want more women

557
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: to get into those fields. Everyone benefits when you get

558
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: a more diverse level of expertise and perspectives into any industry,

559
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: not just technology. UM and that I know that there

560
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: are a lot of women who listen to tech stuff,

561
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: and I want them to know that, like, I'm totally

562
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: on this particular train, like I am not. I don't

563
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: want anyone to get any mistaken belief about where I

564
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: stand on this um, which means that I'm going to

565
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: get a billion tweets telling me that I'm preachy again.

566
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: But that's okay. I don't mind. I don't mind being

567
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: preachy about this. Yeah. I think this is a good

568
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: topic to get those kind of tweets about. Yeah yeah,

569
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: as opposed to some of the other ones that I mean,

570
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: like when I get real mad about Android versus Apple.

571
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of kind of minor in comparison. Jonathan

572
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: from the Future again, jet packs are awesome. It's time

573
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: to take another quick break to thank our sponsor. Now

574
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: what do you think what do you think ct A

575
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: should do? Let's say that you you're brought on as

576
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: a as an advisor, like they're a consultant. C t

577
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 1: A brings you in there, like Annie, we're in a mess.

578
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: We we did the stuff. The optics are terrible. Everyone

579
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: is is saying that we're sexist and misogynist and there

580
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: there's gender bias. What should we do to fix it? Well,

581
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: I assume there's no time machine invented, though if it

582
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: had been, I'm sure would have gotten a best of innovation.

583
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. I feel like at this point,

584
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: since CS is over, they're going to have to think

585
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: about what they're going to do, the steps are going

586
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: to take for that is wild that we're talking about, Um,

587
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: what what can they do to get not only more

588
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: women to come to the conference, but more female or

589
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: non binary companies or technologies to exhibit there. And like

590
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: you were saying, I think that's a great idea for

591
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: health and sexuality to have its own right um, But

592
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: I do think on top of that there needs to

593
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: be some kind of public because, like you said, we

594
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: don't really know where c t A stand UM, so

595
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: make some kind of public statement saying we were wrong

596
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: to do this, or either this is why we did this,

597
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: this is why we thought we should this is a

598
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: thing that we should have done, some kind of clarity

599
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: around it. Here are the steps we're going to take

600
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: so that we can be more inclusive and we can

601
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: be an environment that does welcome innovation from everyone. Yeah.

602
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: I think if you don't do that, then the danger

603
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: you run into is saying, oh, all this inclusion that

604
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: you're talking about, this fifty fifty split of keynote speakers,

605
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: it's all for show and you don't actually mean it,

606
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: Like you're responding to the perception but not to the

607
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: actual problem. And doing what you're suggesting shows that, oh, no,

608
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: we recognize that there are there are hurdles to overcome,

609
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: and we are dedicating ourselves to actually doing that. I

610
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: agree entirely. I think I think they need to say

611
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: either we were in the wrong or we don't believe

612
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: we were in the wrong, but we do believe we

613
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: did it the wrong way. Right, Like, here's here's what

614
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: here's also leave why we made the decision we made,

615
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: but the way that it was communicated and the way

616
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: it uh it unfolded was wrong, and we are responsible

617
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: for that. You cannot blame Laura de Carlo for their

618
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 1: reaction because they got an award and then they got

619
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: it taken away. That is listen, that's that's Charlie Brown

620
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: going to kick the football and the football gets pulled away. Right,

621
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: you don't do that. It's not cool. And and beyond that,

622
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: the denial to exhibit like that's still to me, that's

623
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: like the thing that I can't get past the most.

624
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: Like the award I think is bull hockey. What what

625
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: word am I going to use? Um? I think that's nonsense.

626
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: I think the I think resending the award is nonsense. Uh,

627
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: but I think the denial of exhibiting at all is

628
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: like I can't understand unless you go with that initial

629
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: response they gave where they think it's up seen, and

630
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: that's what has to change. Yeah. So, um, I'm glad

631
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: that we're able to have this conversation. I am sad

632
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: that it is necessary. Yeah, I mean that's generally, I mean,

633
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: come listen to stuff I've never told your listeners. So

634
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I can't believe we have to

635
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: talk about this right now, But we do yeah, well,

636
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine, like I've had this. Actually, this

637
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: also tells me that I should have had you on

638
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: numerous times before because I've covered other topics like I've

639
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: covered topics. Google had the infamous sexual harassment issue that

640
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: that you where you had women organizing so that they

641
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: could do a walk out and protest because of this stuff.

642
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: And and you know, for the longest time, Google was

643
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: looked at as a fairly benevolent company. That has obviously

644
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: changed over the last i'd say five years, but you know,

645
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: for a long time their official model was do no

646
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: do no evil, or do not don't be evil. I

647
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: think was specifically was don't be evil. By the way,

648
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: that has not been their motto for at least five

649
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: years exactly. So I will definitely reach out to you

650
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: to talk about these kind of things in the future.

651
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, I agree entirely. This is something that there

652
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: there's an opportunity here to address a problem and to

653
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: make an improvement and to set up twenty twenty so

654
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: that these these sort of products can take their rightful place.

655
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I also read a great interview where they

656
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: were talking with Laura Haddock about the possibility what if

657
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: c e S were to create a show space where

658
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: all the the sex toys and and marital aids could

659
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: exist and maybe it's apart from everything else. And she said, well,

660
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: we have those already. We have those kind of trade shows.

661
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: Those trade shows exist. What we're asking for is a

662
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: seat at the consumer electronics table where we're not treating

663
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: this as a taboo subject or something that needs to

664
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,439
Speaker 1: be behind closed doors or that that you know, oh

665
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: you have to go behind the curtain at the video

666
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 1: store to go check that out, like because that, again,

667
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: it already sets the stage that this is a taboo thing, right, Um,

668
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: so I agree with that. I think I don't think

669
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: I'm ever going to reach a point of maturity where

670
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: I'll be able to walk through the show floor without

671
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: maybe blushing quite a bit. But that's because of my

672
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: own personal hang ups and the fact that I went

673
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: way too long before getting uh semi woke. But that's

674
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: my own personal failing, not anyone else's sure. I do

675
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: want to throw in here that sex toys are estimated

676
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: to be worth about thirty billion dollars. That's a lot

677
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: of money. Yeah, that's a lot of money to pretend

678
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: like no one does it. It is yeah, to put

679
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: it behind the curtain, yea, to sit there and and

680
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: and say like like, well, I mean, come on, how

681
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: how important could this industry be? Look, when you're starting

682
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: to throw around billion with a B, you're talking, you're

683
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: talking a serious industry. So um, thank you Annie for

684
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: agreeing to be on the show and to have this

685
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: conversation with me. I greatly appreciate it. I was. I was.

686
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: I remember when I first walked up to you and

687
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to approach you about the subject, and I

688
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: literally I was like, I have no idea how this

689
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: conversation and Annie, to your credit, you were like, totally,

690
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: let's talk about it. Thank you very much for asking me.

691
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: I've this has been a great conversation. I could, Um,

692
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: I could talk about this a lot. And that's perhaps

693
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: why I am on a podcast that does that. Yeah,

694
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: and I hope that if you guys over at stuff

695
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: Mom never told you cover topics like this. I can't

696
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: wait to hear them because I want I really want

697
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: to hear your full perspective. UH that show obviously you

698
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: you've developed your own uh structure and tone, and it's

699
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: it's a very special show. A very important show. And

700
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: you know you're able to balance rage and humor in

701
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: a way that I greatly admire. Thank you. It's a skill. Yeah,

702
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: I know, the fact that you aren't just constantly going

703
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: around and punching everybody is a phenomenon to me. I'm

704
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm amazed. Thank you, You're welcome. I don't get complimented

705
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: on not punching people enough. I also just want to

706
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: say thank you because I like my face not punched. Annie.

707
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: So where can people find all of your work? In

708
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: case they are not familiar. You can find me over

709
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 1: on Stuff I've Never told you, And you can also

710
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: find me on Saver, which is a podcast about food

711
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 1: and travels a little bit lighter but not always formally

712
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: called food stuff formally called food stuff. Yes, um, and

713
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that most people who listen to this are

714
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: pretty uh they know what to do in technologically. Well, yeah,

715
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: so you can. You can find it on Google. Um,

716
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: you find on the I Heart radio app. I think

717
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: we're legally obligated to say that, are we need to

718
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: get the time, but yeah, come on over. We have

719
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: conversations like this all the time. Fantastic Annie, Thank you

720
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: so much, And guys, if you have any questions, maybe

721
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: have follow up questions about this episode, Maybe you have

722
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: suggestions for other topics. Maybe you heard this and you

723
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: thought this was really interesting. I want to hear more

724
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: on this line of topics. Then let me know. Even

725
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: if it's not something that tech Stuff should tackle. I

726
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: can certainly hand it over to Annie so that she

727
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: can look into that, or maybe who knows. You never

728
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: know what will become the next mini series episode. That's true.

729
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: Thing like, we are constantly on the lookout for possible

730
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: podcast topics that may not fit in any existing show

731
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: but might be a great, let's say, ten episode series.

732
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: So if you have something where you're like, I really

733
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: want to hear, maybe like a full series about the

734
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: history of the inner section between sexuality and technology, that

735
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: could be phenomenal. I am not the right person to

736
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: do that because I will at some point just end

737
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: up blushing so hard I pass out. I'll come back anytime. Yeah,

738
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: I'll be happy to hand the baton to you. But

739
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: that might be an excellent mini series. But if there's

740
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: anything else along those lines, you should send me an email.

741
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: Let me know the addresses tech Stuff at how stuff

742
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: works dot com. You can check out the website that's

743
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: tech Stuff Podcast dot com. You can find all the

744
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: archives there, as well as other ways to get in

745
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: touch with me. Don't forget to pop over to the

746
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: merchandise store that's t public dot com slash tech stuff.

747
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: Every purchase he make goes to help the show, and

748
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: we greatly appreciate it. And I'll talk to you again

749
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: really soon for more on this and thousands of other topics.

750
00:45:51,080 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: Is that how stuff works dot com. Two