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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on

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Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Welcome to the fastest show in politics. It

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Speaker 2: is already the Wednesday edition of Sound On. I'm Joe,

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Speaker 2: Matthew and Washington. With a reminder that dictators do not

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Speaker 2: like to be called dictator, as President Biden referred to

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Speaker 2: President she during remarks at a fundraiser last night, with

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Speaker 2: a heavy response now from China, saying that the American

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Speaker 2: president made a public political provocation by referring to his

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Speaker 2: Chinese counterpart as a dictator. Chinese Foreign Ministry a spokesperson

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Speaker 2: calling the US leaders comments irresponsible. As I read on

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Speaker 2: the terminal, this was a regularly scheduled news briefing in Beijing,

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Speaker 2: but they were ready. Quote. It is against the basic

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Speaker 2: facts and diplomatic protocols, seriously violates China's political dignity and

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Speaker 2: amounts to public political provocation. This, of course, what two

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Speaker 2: days after Secretary of State Anthony Blinkln returned from his

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Speaker 2: trip to Beijing in which he met personally with President She.

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Speaker 3: The relationship and the communication between are the two leaders.

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Speaker 2: Between President Biden President She is most important of all.

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Speaker 1: That's why they've.

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Speaker 2: Had a number of communications and meetings to date, and

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Speaker 2: that's why I expect you'll see more of that in

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Speaker 2: the time ahead. Now, that was just as I said

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Speaker 2: what three days ago here with the idea that hey,

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Speaker 2: at some point, you know, look, we finally got back

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Speaker 2: on track. Next or at some point in the next

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Speaker 2: couple of months, President Biden will meet with President She.

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Speaker 2: The principles will be back in touch. We've heard about

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Speaker 2: trips from the Treasury Secretary in the works, the Commerce

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Speaker 2: Secretary as well. So a lot of questions this morning

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Speaker 2: about whether we just crashed into the rocks again with

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Speaker 2: this relationship or if it's just another stop on the road,

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Speaker 2: remembering some very severe responses we heard from China following

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Speaker 2: the President's comments on Taiwan not to mention the visit

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Speaker 2: of the Speaker of the House. And that's where we

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Speaker 2: get rolling here with the gentleman from South Dakota. Congressman

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Speaker 2: Dusty Johnson joins US Republican who serves on the Select

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Speaker 2: Committee on China. It's great to have you back on

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Radio. Congressman, what is the status of our relationship today?

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Speaker 4: Well, nobody gets spun up faster than the Chinese Communist Party.

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Speaker 4: I mean, listener, I get it. You know, Colin she

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Speaker 4: a dictator. He clearly is a dictator. You know, was

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Speaker 4: you know, the nicest, most politically correct thing the president

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Speaker 4: could have done. No, But Shi Jingping is a dictator.

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Speaker 4: And all of this breathless opposition, this pearl clutching from

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Speaker 4: the Chinese Communist Party. Listen, They've got to calm down.

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Speaker 4: They've got to understand that that's the reality. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it clearly is a dictatorial regime. We can maybe talk

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Speaker 4: about it in a nicer way, but that's not going

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Speaker 4: to obscure the fact that the guy's a dictator.

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Speaker 2: A dictator with maive human rights offenses. This is a

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Speaker 2: big component of our strife with Beijing right now. I

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Speaker 2: guess the question is, Congressman, is it recoverable Because we've

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Speaker 2: had a lot of throws, basically through through the comms

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Speaker 2: departments with Beijing, But they've also put airplanes in the air,

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Speaker 2: and they've put ships in the sea when they get upset,

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Speaker 2: Is this just another one of those or are we

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Speaker 2: in trouble here In terms of the long term trajectory

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Speaker 2: of this relationship.

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Speaker 4: I think this is a pretty standard Chinese Communist Party fit.

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Speaker 4: You know, they do like to throw these we do, listen,

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Speaker 4: this relationship is worth protecting. We do not want a

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Speaker 4: hot war with China. We don't want a cold war

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Speaker 4: that degrades even further. Clearly, you know what we want

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Speaker 4: is behavior change. I mean, we'd like it if Hujingping

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Speaker 4: would not be the worst human rights abuser in you know,

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Speaker 4: decades or hundreds of years, decades. Certainly, we don't want

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Speaker 4: them to be gaining coercive economic power over our country

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Speaker 4: and other free eleving countries. Like we'd like it if

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Speaker 4: they behaved normally according to some rules based international standards.

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Speaker 4: We should be able to get that done without a

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Speaker 4: hot war, and so we shouldn't needlessly provocate the Chinese

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Speaker 4: Communist Party. But every once in a while it's okay

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Speaker 4: to let them know that we're willing to speak the truth.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to see President Biden sit down with

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Speaker 2: President She? Is that a necessary step in the near future?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know that it's necessary, but you know

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't be upset if he did. I do think

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Speaker 4: there are I think some hard messages that the president

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Speaker 4: could deliver to Shijing.

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Speaker 1: Thing.

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Speaker 4: I think this president, his predecessor, his predecessors at various times,

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Speaker 4: they could all be really good about talking about the

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Speaker 4: value of these values, that these principles that should bind

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Speaker 4: us together. And when somebody is falling short, like the

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Speaker 4: Chinese Communist Party does seemingly every day, it's worth calling

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Speaker 4: them out. And I don't normally a president's the most

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Speaker 4: powerful messenger.

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Speaker 2: You can have ye interesting turn that this is happening

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Speaker 2: a day after the big trip to Detroit, and I

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Speaker 2: want to ask you about that. For lawmakers, including the

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Speaker 2: chair and ranking member of your China Select Committee, went

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Speaker 2: to Detroit to meet with leaders of the major automakers

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Speaker 2: Ford and GM to urge them to cut their supply

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Speaker 2: chain's reliance on China. And that's awfully important when it

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Speaker 2: comes to building evs, which most of these automakers and

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Speaker 2: certainly Ford and GM are now leading into. Can you

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Speaker 2: give us any sense of what came from that meeting,

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Speaker 2: if everyone's on the same page or not.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I do think there are lots of areas of agreement,

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Speaker 4: and we do need to be risk this relationship with China.

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Speaker 4: I think we've given them way too much control over

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Speaker 4: critical minerals, over healthcare, over food, over major industrial capacity

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Speaker 4: in this country. I think when I talked to CEOs

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Speaker 4: and this would have been consistent with what we heard

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Speaker 4: yesterday as well. They are a little concerned about the

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Speaker 4: pacing of this. They certainly don't want to see a

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Speaker 4: big divorce between US and China. They understand that that

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Speaker 4: could wreck a serious harm on both countries. But shame

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Speaker 4: on our country if we continue to sleep walk through

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Speaker 4: these challenges. We have got to de risk our relationship

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Speaker 4: with China, and I think a big part of that

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Speaker 4: is making sure that large players in American industrial manufacturing

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Speaker 4: step up. And it doesn't have to be all in America,

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Speaker 4: but let's make sure that they understand the value of

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Speaker 4: on shoring, friend shoring near shore, Yes, because.

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Speaker 2: How do we do that when it comes to the

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Speaker 2: minerals and rare earths? Though that we need so badly

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Speaker 2: to make these evs happen, or are you skeptical about that?

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Speaker 2: I mean I keep hearing that we need to enshore,

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Speaker 2: you know, the processing of cobalt and nickel and lithium,

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Speaker 2: and China's you know, owns more than ninety percent of

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Speaker 2: the market on this stuff.

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Speaker 4: It's amazing to me that we haven't done a better

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Speaker 4: job with us We've got the stuff in the ground.

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Speaker 4: That's what a lot of people don't understand that these

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Speaker 4: rare earth minerals, they don't They occur almost everywhere, but

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Speaker 4: not in high concentrations. So kind of everybody's got them,

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Speaker 4: has got to have big minds, and they got to

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Speaker 4: digle out of dirt, and they got to go work

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Speaker 4: to find them and pull them together. It is almost

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Speaker 4: impossible to cite a new mind in this country. Even

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Speaker 4: on projects that everybody loves, like you know or almost everybody,

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Speaker 4: like highway projects or you know, energy projects that don't

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Speaker 4: face a lot of local opposition. Those things still take

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Speaker 4: five years to get done in this country. The same

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Speaker 4: kind of project you could get done in two years

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Speaker 4: in France or Italy or Australia and Canada. Our country

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Speaker 4: is we're being idiots with regard to citing. We need

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Speaker 4: to get it together. There is no reason we should

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Speaker 4: be dependent on China for critical minerals.

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Speaker 2: Well, we'll see how that develops. And I know it's

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Speaker 2: something that your committee is super focused on. You reference

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Speaker 2: China's economy and our relationship economically when it comes to

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Speaker 2: trade is of course a huge part of this conversation.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of concerns, Congressmen about where China's

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Speaker 2: economy is heading now that they're moving to some form

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Speaker 2: of stimulus, and there are concerns about where ours is

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Speaker 2: heading as well. I'm talking to you as you know,

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Speaker 2: Chair J. Powell does his first day of testimony in

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Speaker 2: the House, will be in the Senate tomorrow, with a

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Speaker 2: lot of questions about where we're going with inflation and

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Speaker 2: whether this economy is actually heading into a recession. What's

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Speaker 2: your view on that.

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Speaker 4: I don't think there's going to be a recession, but

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Speaker 4: there are a lot of guys smarter than me, and

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Speaker 4: gal smarter than me that I think will be able to,

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Speaker 4: you know, tell us with more accuracy. I do think

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Speaker 4: inflation has been a problem. The fact that it's come

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Speaker 4: down a little bit, this is not a reason for

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Speaker 4: a victory lap. It's not like, you know, prices are softening,

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Speaker 4: They're just going up a little bit slower than they

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Speaker 4: did before. This is going to be a generational problem.

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Speaker 4: I mean everything's expensive and it's going to be expensive

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Speaker 4: forever compared to what it would have been had we

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Speaker 4: not dumped ten trillion dollars of fiscal and monetary policy

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Speaker 4: out on the bricks. Is a major error. And guys

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Speaker 4: like me were saying in real time, not with the

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Speaker 4: benefit of hindsight, but in real time, Gang, this is

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Speaker 4: too much money. We got to slow down, and we

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Speaker 4: just have got to figure out a way to try

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Speaker 4: to cool this economy without putting us into a recession.

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Speaker 2: Well, so you know, and Chairman Powell was speaking about

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Speaker 2: the impact of COVID as well on inflation, as we've

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Speaker 2: heard from him repeatedly when he testifies on Capitol Hill.

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Speaker 2: I know there are a lot of reasons, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of people can argue all day long about what

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Speaker 2: was a bigger driver of inflation here. But do you

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Speaker 2: want to see the FED pull off the gas a

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Speaker 2: little bit and see what the lagging effects of these

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Speaker 2: rate hikes are before they keep going.

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Speaker 4: If they keep going, yeah, I don't know that they

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Speaker 4: need to be super aggressive and increasing rates. They've slowed

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Speaker 4: down a little bit. I mean, I have not criticized

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Speaker 4: their behavior because I do think they're headed in generally

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Speaker 4: the right direction. Boy. COVID is such an easy whipping boy,

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Speaker 4: and I get it. COVID was terrible and we had

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Speaker 4: a million Americans lose their lives, and it was terrible

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Speaker 4: and it was a real American tragedy. But you know what,

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Speaker 4: the recession ended in March, not last March, not the

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Speaker 4: March before that, but the March before that. And the

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Speaker 4: fact that we have still in the last two years

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Speaker 4: had congresses that were willing to spend, you know, past

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Speaker 4: trillion dollars package after trillion dollar package and ass and

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Speaker 4: spend like we were in the Great Depression, even though

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Speaker 4: we were not at all. I think that is a

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Speaker 4: much bigger problem than COVID. I mean, the public health

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Speaker 4: emergency has been done for kind of a long time.

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Speaker 2: I have to ask you, as you also serve on

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Speaker 2: the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, your business card's too long

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Speaker 2: to stick on one topic, Congressman. This bridge collapse on

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Speaker 2: one ninety five in Pennsylvania. We were talking with your

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Speaker 2: colleague Brendan Boyle, who was very optimistic about this being

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Speaker 2: fast tracked. And I know that there is a workaround

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Speaker 2: project that's being implemented right now. Can you give us

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Speaker 2: any update on that important court or what the committee

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Speaker 2: sees as a solution.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Boyle probably has better insight than I do, just

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Speaker 4: because he's a local boy. But I am very I

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Speaker 4: feel great about the fact that the timelines for getting

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Speaker 4: this project open are so quick. I think it shows

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Speaker 4: that when we really need to state, local and federal

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Speaker 4: garments can work, move pretty quickly on infrastructure. That is

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Speaker 4: why it drives me so crazy that other important projects

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Speaker 4: can take five or ten years when something like this

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Speaker 4: was clearly we should move quickly on this. It was

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Speaker 4: a terrible and kind of a freak accident to have

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Speaker 4: that kind of fire. Obviously, most of our bridges are

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Speaker 4: not vulnerable and quite that same way to collapse. But

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Speaker 4: we need to continue to make smart investments in infrastructure.

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Speaker 4: I did not like how the Infrastructure Package paid for it,

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Speaker 4: which is to say they didn't pay for it at

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Speaker 4: all in a long term way. They scooped up one

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Speaker 4: time dollars and spent those in an ongoing way. But

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Speaker 4: clearly we need a bipartisan commitment to infrastructure investment. We

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Speaker 4: just need to make sure we pay for it in

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Speaker 4: a responsible way.

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Speaker 2: We talk about paying for things while you're still with us. Congressman,

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Speaker 2: I have to ask you about the argument in the

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Speaker 2: House over spending cuts and the displeasure that we've heard

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Speaker 2: from a number of your Republican colleagues, many of them

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Speaker 2: on the Freedom Caucus, about the debt ceiling deal that

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Speaker 2: was cut, many pushing, including right there on the Appropriations Committee,

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Speaker 2: for much more steep cuts than Speaker McCarthy agreed to

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Speaker 2: with Joe Biden. Is that the right path?

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Speaker 4: I don't know what these guys are talking about. I mean,

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Speaker 4: we listen what I have loved a better deal, of course,

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Speaker 4: do I think we cut enough in that? No, But

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Speaker 4: it seems to me that their argument, by and large

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Speaker 4: is that it was not a perfect deal. Well, guilty

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Speaker 4: as charged. I mean, have any of you ever lived

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Speaker 4: in the real world. I mean, when you cut a

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Speaker 4: Republicans have barely one half of control of one third

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Speaker 4: of government. I mean, what kind of deal did they

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Speaker 4: think we were going to get here? I mean, wake

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Speaker 4: up and smell the coffee. The reality is it is

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Speaker 4: not a perfect deal. It's only the best debt ceialing

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Speaker 4: deal that Republicans have ever gotten, ever, the largest ever

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Speaker 4: cut in federal spending more than two trillion dollars, the

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Speaker 4: largest ever decision the federal government spending from a federal agency,

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Speaker 4: the biggest change to American sighting and permitting that you

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Speaker 4: and I were just talking about in decades, and the

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Speaker 4: biggest change to welfare reform since nineteen ninety six. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I get it, Gang, you wanted more. Go ahead and

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Speaker 4: yell out loud, make it seem like you know you

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Speaker 4: could have delivered a better product, but it was so easy.

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Speaker 4: He's need to negotiate a great, a perfect debt ceiling deal. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: then why didn't we do it in the last administration?

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Speaker 4: There were times we had a Republican House, a Republican Senate,

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Speaker 4: and a Republican White House. We still didn't get as

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Speaker 4: good a deal as we got hou this month. I

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Speaker 4: think the complaints are overblown.

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Speaker 2: Listen to you, So is this the conversation in the

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Speaker 2: halls of the House or are you Are you telling

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Speaker 2: those members what you just told me?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Of course, I mean I'm not. You know, listen, I'm

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Speaker 4: a polite guy, but I'm no shrinking Violet. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I know these guys. I like these guys. We work

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Speaker 4: together every day. Yeah, saying anything to you, I haven't

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Speaker 4: said to them, but we frankly, we've moved past it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we got other issues to deal with. I mean,

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Speaker 4: that was the last play. What's the next play. Let's

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Speaker 4: get the ball in bounds, Let's get make the passes,

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Speaker 4: let's get the rebounds, let's get the shots. We've got

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Speaker 4: appropriations bills, twelve of them. We need to move and

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Speaker 4: I'm not spending a lot of time talking to my

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Speaker 4: colleagues about the last play.

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Speaker 2: Well, come on and talk to us about the next play. Congressman,

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Speaker 2: it's great to spend some time with you. Dusty Johnson,

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Speaker 2: the Republican from South Dakota, We do thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us here.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the

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Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 2: If Washington cannot get its arms around Crypto, what does

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Speaker 2: it do with AI? I'm Joe Matthew with Kaylee Lyons,

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Speaker 2: tackling the question that is being asked really on both

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Speaker 2: ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. Chuck Schumer speaking today a special

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Speaker 2: address at csis about humility, Kaylee, and the approach that

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Speaker 2: lawmakers need to take with this technology that they clearly

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Speaker 2: do not understand.

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Speaker 6: We must exercise humility, humility as we proceed. We're going

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Speaker 6: to work very hard to come up with comprehensive legislation

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Speaker 6: because this is so important. We're going to do everything

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Speaker 6: we can to succeed, but success is not guaranteed.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh, where we start there? This comes the day

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Speaker 2: after President Biden talked about it in California. Yes, he

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Speaker 2: didn't seem terribly engaged. I don't, we want to use

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Speaker 2: the wrong word, terribly passionate about the issue.

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Speaker 5: Social media has already shown us the harm and powerful

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Speaker 5: but powerful powerful technology can do without the right safeguards

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Speaker 5: in place. That's why I said it's the state of

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Speaker 5: the Union that Congress needs to pass bipartisan privacy legislation

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Speaker 5: to impose strict limits on personal data collection, ban targeting

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Speaker 5: and advertising to our children, and require companies to put

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Speaker 5: health and safety first.

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Speaker 2: Okay, he was reading for about four minutes there, Like that.

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Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom with it like boy, this, I don't I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure guys, if we're ready for this. Knowing that

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Speaker 2: the crip the world that you cover remains elusive to lawmakers.

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Speaker 7: It does. Indeed, they're trying to, you know, crawl forward

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Speaker 7: on the legislative front on that. But there's a real

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Speaker 7: question about, you know, really getting their heads around this

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Speaker 7: AI issue. And one Congressman, who by the way, hates crypto,

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Speaker 7: I think is a fair characterization, is a Congressman from

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Speaker 7: California to who I was chatting with on Capitol Hill earlier,

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Speaker 7: Congressman Brad Sherman, a Democrat, and I did ask him

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Speaker 7: about AI, and he said humanity is not equipped to respond.

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Speaker 7: And he was quick to point out to me, Joe,

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Speaker 7: that he started talking about this in the year two thousand.

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Speaker 7: He was speaking on the floor of the House. He

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Speaker 7: said he'd been called a nut for working on this

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Speaker 7: for twenty years, but basically was just berating the fact

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Speaker 7: that Congress has not appropriated one dollar, he says, toward

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Speaker 7: research to make sure that computers aren't ambitious and self aware.

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Speaker 2: He's very concerned humanity.

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Speaker 7: What did he say, humanity is not equipped to respond

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Speaker 7: to AI?

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Speaker 2: Great, well, so good luck.

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Speaker 7: To all of us.

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Speaker 2: Shean's takeover called Matthew Shettenhelm. This is what he does

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Speaker 2: all day. Well, he does a couple of other things

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg intelligence litigation, and government analysts, but this is his beat. Matthew,

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Speaker 2: you got like the best beat going here. Certainly if

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Speaker 2: you ask Wall Street, it's the hottest thing in the world.

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Speaker 2: The company can't even have an earnings call without claiming

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Speaker 2: to have some sort of AI project underway here and

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Speaker 2: now Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden are thinking about ways

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Speaker 2: to fix it. Is this like a comedy routine for you?

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Speaker 2: Or is Washington on the right path?

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Speaker 8: Hi, Joe, Yeah, this is an exciting time. I think

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Speaker 8: Congress wants to, you know, get a part of this.

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Speaker 8: But I think you're exactly right that they are very

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Speaker 8: far behind in terms of catching up to this technology

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Speaker 8: and understanding the problems that they need to address, let

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Speaker 8: alone you know, designing and fashioning a regulatory model to

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Speaker 8: go after those issues. This is very much early days

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Speaker 8: in thinking about this in Washington.

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Speaker 9: D C.

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Speaker 7: Do we even have an idea of where they would start?

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Speaker 8: Well, I think Europe is really going to be driving

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Speaker 8: that conversation, probably more than anything and the EU AI

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Speaker 8: Act that is sort of moving ahead there really is

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Speaker 8: going to drive the conversation. It's really focused on sort

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Speaker 8: of a licensing model that's focused on risk and maybe

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Speaker 8: licensing higher risk things more aggressively than lower risk things.

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Speaker 2: But I think that's the first.

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Speaker 8: Idea out there. But I think more likely we saw

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Speaker 8: a bill introduced this week that had some bipartisan support,

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Speaker 8: the idea of let's before we jump into regulation, let's

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Speaker 8: have a commission that brings the industry to the table,

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Speaker 8: brings interested parties to the table, and let's have a

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Speaker 8: conversation about, Okay, what is AI and what are we

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Speaker 8: really concerned about, and how should we be thinking about regulation.

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Speaker 8: I really think that's the most lit step. We're not

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Speaker 8: close yet to understanding how to move ahead on regulation.

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Speaker 8: That sort of a sensible approach to start.

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Speaker 2: Where you were writing about the first hearing on AI.

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Speaker 2: This was not that long ago. Actually it was the

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Speaker 2: sixteenth of May, if my notes are correct. In the Senate,

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Speaker 2: Senator Richard Blumenthal shows up with an opening statement that

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Speaker 2: was generated by AI. It's not He's sitting there with

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Speaker 2: the computer, his mouth closed, the computer doing the talking,

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Speaker 2: and he wrapped it with this.

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Speaker 9: If you were listening from home, you might have thought

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Speaker 9: that voice was mine and the words from me, But

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Speaker 9: in fact that voice was not mine, the words were

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Speaker 9: not mine, and the audio was an AI voice cloning

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Speaker 9: software trained on my floor speeches. The remarks were written

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Speaker 9: by chat gbt uh huh when it was a how

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Speaker 9: I would open this hearing? Incredible and you heard just

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Speaker 9: now the result.

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Speaker 2: So Matthew AI will be doing this program at some

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Speaker 2: point soon and I won't have a job. I just

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Speaker 2: wonder what happens to the bipartisan legislation that dropped just

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Speaker 2: on the fourteenth of this month. Does it have a chance.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, So, I mean, the remarkable thing about that hearing

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Speaker 8: was sort of how on board everyone was Republicans, Democrats

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Speaker 8: on let's go regulate aggressively. But you know, to me,

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Speaker 8: I think the tenor of that is very different than

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Speaker 8: the reality of actually imposing material regulation. So what I

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Speaker 8: do think has a chance to pass is what I said,

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Speaker 8: this bipartisan legislation about a commission to let's sort of

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Speaker 8: think about it for a while. Maybe also a bipartisan

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Speaker 8: bill to let's make sure the Section two thirty liability

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Speaker 8: shield doesn't apply to AI. I think you can agree

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Speaker 8: on that, but doing comprehensive and materially disruptive AI regulation,

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Speaker 8: that's far down the road.

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Speaker 7: I think, well, and what are companies in this space

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Speaker 7: likely to advocate for. I mean, we were talking about

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Speaker 7: crypto here at the beginning of the segment. A lot

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Speaker 7: of the crypto companies say, please regulate us. We want

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Speaker 7: to know what the rules of the road are. And

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Speaker 7: I just wonder, you know how the lobbying effort may

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Speaker 7: play in.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think I think we're already seeing some of

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Speaker 8: that from the companies, where they you know, they don't

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Speaker 8: want to be against regulation. And this kind of draws

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Speaker 8: on what we've seen from the regulation of big tech

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Speaker 8: and Congress's struggle there where Meta has actively been saying,

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Speaker 8: give us some regulation, put some guardrails in place. And

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Speaker 8: I think that's what you're going to increasingly see from companies,

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Speaker 8: at least in public forums and these hearings on the Hill,

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Speaker 8: where they say, put in some sensible guardrails to make

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Speaker 8: AI make sense. I think behind the scenes, though the

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Speaker 8: company may not be as supportive of regulation, at least

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Speaker 8: not aggressive regulation. But I think I think sort of

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Speaker 8: risk based regulation is what you'll hear a lot from

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Speaker 8: the companies and focused on sort of high risk things

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Speaker 8: which without disrupting sort of the run of the mill

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Speaker 8: operation of this technology is what the companies will be

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Speaker 8: pushing for.

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Speaker 2: You know, some people say, the cat's already out of

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Speaker 2: the bag, jeans out of the bottle, the toothpaste out

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Speaker 2: of the tube, whatever here, But yes, good. But so

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Speaker 2: it becomes the question is it too late already? And

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Speaker 2: I suspect it's not, Matthew, But I wonder when it

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Speaker 2: is it? Is it autonomous vehicles, is it when AI

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Speaker 2: starts doing your kids homework, when people start getting fired

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Speaker 2: on mass in the service industry? When is it too late?

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Speaker 8: It's a great question. I mean, I think it's time

437
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 8: to get moving before it is too late. I don't

438
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 8: know how to how to draw that line exactly. And

439
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 8: there's certainly increasingly these this these automated processes are going

440
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 8: to become more and more a part of our lives

441
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 8: and are going to be more and more a part

442
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 8: of our routine. And at that point it becomes harder

443
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 8: and harder for lawmakers potentially to disrupt it. And so

444
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 8: definitely want to want to get moving if they're going

445
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 8: to do serious regulation.

446
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

447
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 7: I mean, Joe, if we're talking about machine learning here

448
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 7: that is constantly learning on top of itself, I mean

449
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 7: we are how much realistically can this progress in the

450
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 7: time it takes Congress to do literally anything at all.

451
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, turn the machines on. Matthew, great work,

452
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 2: thanks for talking to us, Thanks for having me find

453
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: him on the terminal. Matthew sheddenhelmet Bloomberg Intelligence. By the way,

454
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: a little secret. If Matthew doesn't know, lawmakers don't know either.

455
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: A lot more ahead. I'm Joe Matthew with Kaylee Lyons

456
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: in Washington. This is Bloomberg Sound On. You're listening to

457
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

458
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: one Eastern.

459
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeart Rate and the Bloomberg

460
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: Business app, or listening on demand wherever you get your podcasts.

461
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: I do think if there's one thing we've established here

462
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: in the first twenty minutes so the program is that

463
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 2: China remains a bipartisan obsession here in Washington, and I

464
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: guess there's a lot not to like. And following President

465
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 2: Biden's remarks last night, President she calling him a dictator.

466
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: Everybody's upset again. We just spoke with Congressman Dusty Johnson,

467
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: who serves in the House Select Committee, the China Select Committee.

468
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 2: You know, he says what a lot of people aren't

469
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: saying out loud, and that is well, he is a dictator.

470
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 2: We assemble our panel, Rick Davis and Genie Shanzano or

471
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 2: with us Bloomberg Politics contributors. It's great to have you

472
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: both here. Rick, Sometimes I guess it's okay to say

473
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 2: the truth. It's not the most controversial concept here inside

474
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: the Beltway.

475
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 10: No, especially after a week of trying to bend yourself

476
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 10: into a pretzel, trying to you know, make excuses for having,

477
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 10: you know, a state visit or state visit, a visit

478
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 10: by the secondcretary state to China.

479
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way.

480
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 10: And China then abused him badly in their social media

481
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 10: and state media, you know, for even coming. They claimed

482
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,479
Speaker 10: they rolled him and embarrassed him. They claimed they rolled

483
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 10: him and that he was there on father's data because

484
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 10: China is our daddy, and I'm sorry, daddy, I have

485
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 10: no daddy as a dictator, so so you know, they

486
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 10: deserve everything they get. And these alligator tears every time.

487
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 10: You know, Joe Biden says something like, yes, you know,

488
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 10: Taiwan's a strategic partner of ours.

489
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: Yes, you are a dictator. It's just they hate the.

490
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 10: Truth, and so as long as we're prepared to tell

491
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 10: the truth, we'll have the kind of relationship we want

492
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 10: with China.

493
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: So was that a forced error?

494
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 11: Genie?

495
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: I mean, let's talk about Joe Biden's role in this year.

496
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: Was it irresponsible for the President of the United States

497
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: to poke the bear like that? I know we're not

498
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: talking about Russia, but you know what I mean.

499
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, when I heard this, I thought, am I losing

500
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 11: my mind? In the In Joe Biden's first State of

501
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 11: the State, he refers to him as an autocrat repeatedly.

502
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 11: Blincoln then comes in and says he is responsible, sing

503
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 11: handedly for crimes against humanity and a genocide. So, you know,

504
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 11: as a political science professor, I'm delighted people are so

505
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 11: fixated on the difference between an autocrat and a dictator.

506
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 11: But there's really not that much difference there, And so

507
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 11: I'm a bit surprised that this has sort of blown

508
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 11: up as if Joe Biden has never said.

509
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: These Well, they're always looking for something right shod he

510
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: have said it or not, I guess is the question.

511
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 11: I think he should have said it. We've accused him

512
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 11: of crimes against humanity, of genocide, and by the way

513
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 11: he put blink in at the little kid's table in

514
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 11: the meeting, and Joe Biden's raising money for a campaign,

515
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 11: so he's going to use this sort of fervor against

516
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 11: China to his political benefit. They do the same. So

517
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 11: I think, you know, all's fair in love and war,

518
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 11: and we need each other, so we'll still try to

519
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 11: work together.

520
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: Well, and that's of course the real question here. You know, Rick,

521
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: we saw Bill Gates there last week. She called him

522
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: as the best American friend. They're the only I think

523
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: American friend he's had visited the last year. I don't

524
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: know how Elon Musk or Jamie diamond Field about that,

525
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: but he's been getting a lot of love from corporate America.

526
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: And you do wonder if we're starting to take separate

527
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 2: paths here with the government and private enterprise.

528
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 10: Well, I think that that it's more like a collision course,

529
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,199
Speaker 10: not separate paths, because you can't have the federal government

530
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 10: looking at China in the way they do and say,

531
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 10: you know, we're going to start banning US corporations from

532
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 10: doing business in China and trading technology and making investments

533
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 10: in China state owned enterprises that are actually out to

534
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 10: do harm to the United States and other democratic countries.

535
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 10: And then have Wall Street, by and large, you know,

536
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 10: and some of these tech companies that you know you mentioned,

537
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 10: continue to do active and full throated business.

538
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: On mainland China.

539
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 10: At some point in time that check comes due, and

540
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 10: it's not the federal government that's going to pay that check.

541
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 10: It's going to be Wall Street and the tech companies

542
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 10: who are looking at this still in I think very

543
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 10: innocent eyes as being one of the largest untapped markets

544
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 10: in the world. It just happens to be in a

545
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 10: collision course with the United States of America.

546
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 2: All the while, we're writing debt here, you know, faster

547
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: than Everginie, because we're coming off as debt ceiling period.

548
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: There are a lot of debt auctions lined up, a

549
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: lot of them are being enhanced. And you know who's

550
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: going to buy all those treasury bonds? Don't we need China.

551
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 11: We do need China, we absolutely do, and they quite

552
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 11: frankly they need us. I mean their economy is suffering

553
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 11: horribly since COVID they haven't recovered. They do need That's

554
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 11: why they have reluctantly met with blinkeoln They certainly didn't

555
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 11: want to meet with the Secretary of State, but they

556
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 11: do want to meet with the Secretary of Treasury and

557
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 11: maybe even Commerce and certainly the business men and women

558
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 11: because they know how important it is to shoring up

559
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 11: and getting an economic recovery over there. So they need us,

560
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 11: we need them. And the reality is we are running

561
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 11: on two tracks and those two tracks are going in

562
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 11: opposite direction when it comes to issues of defense and

563
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 11: when it comes to issues of the economy and economics.

564
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 11: And we're going to have to resolve that. And that,

565
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 11: I think, you know, is something the US has long

566
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 11: long had an issue with. It's unclear you go back

567
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 11: to Trump and even earlier, what our approach to China

568
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 11: is and should be. It's still not clear under Biden,

569
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 11: and I think that's the biggest problem. We have hawks

570
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 11: and we have doves in the administration. They seem to

571
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 11: be battling it out. The doves seemed to be winning

572
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 11: until the balloon came overhead. We saw it, and so

573
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 11: they had to get a little more hawkish, and this

574
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 11: is sort of where veering sort of in between both.

575
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: That was actually what really I guess upset President Sheeve

576
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: not only called him a dictator, but the President told

577
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: the crowd last night, and there were no cameras here

578
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: at this fundraiser, that's the way it goes. But everybody

579
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: talks about it after that he did not know about

580
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: the spy balloon, that he was ignorant of the whole thing,

581
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: and he was embarrassed by those remarks. Was that the

582
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: faux pas?

583
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 10: Well, I'm not sure it was a faux pas. I

584
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 10: think it was something that was well known in the

585
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 10: military and intelligence community.

586
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: I heard a similar story.

587
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 10: At the mccannin's two Sadona Forum given to us by

588
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 10: a senior military officer in the region, and so I'm

589
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 10: not sure that there were any surprises. I think the

590
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 10: surprise Tochi is anytime something like that becomes public, he

591
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 10: looks weak. Who's in charge? Is he really given the

592
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 10: orders to the PLA or is the Red Army actually

593
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 10: acting on its own behest. It won't be the first

594
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 10: time something happened in the military that the civilian leadership

595
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 10: was maybe not fully appraised of so I think everybody,

596
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 10: everybody gets a little bit of a gimme. But when

597
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 10: you set yourself up to be the dictator of choice

598
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 10: right when you, when you are, you know, the man

599
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 10: beyond any reproach and at all roads in Beijing lead

600
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 10: to you, then you're actually setting yourself up for this

601
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 10: kind of incident that makes you look bad.

602
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 9: Wow.

603
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: Spending time with Rick and Jeanie our panel today on

604
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: Bloomberg's sound on, fascinating response from Dusty Johnson, the Congressman

605
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: from South Dakota Republican, when I asked them about the

606
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: pushback on spending cuts and really the pushback on the

607
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: debt ceiling deal that was cut. If you listen to

608
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: this program, you know all about it. Freedom Caucus Republicans

609
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: and some others are really bulking at the lack of

610
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: cuts or what they saw coming out of the agreement

611
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: between Speaker McCarthy and Joe Biden. So they're coming back around.

612
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: They want to have more cuts implemented than agreed on

613
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: in the appropriations process, and the congressman wasn't having any

614
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: of them.

615
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 4: I don't know what these guys are talking about. I mean, well,

616
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: listen what I have loved a better deal. Of course,

617
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 4: Do I think we cut enough in that? No, But

618
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: it seems to me that their argument by and large

619
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 4: is that it was not a perfect deal. Well, guilty

620
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 4: as charged. I mean, have any of you ever lived

621
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 4: in the real world?

622
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So that brings us, I guess into the house Genie,

623
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: and this is the conversation going on between members here,

624
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: is this whole thing going to be a wash in

625
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: the appropriations process? Do those members pull back on these demands?

626
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 11: Hallelujah for straight talk from South Dakota's Rusty. I mean,

627
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 11: that is just a the rusty Dusty. I'm sorry, Jesus,

628
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 11: I'm combining the representative and Dusty. You know, he is

629
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 11: absolutely right. You're never going to get a perfect deal.

630
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 11: You're going to get the best deal you can. It

631
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 11: was the best deal they can. They need to move

632
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 11: forward with that. But of course, you're talking about people

633
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 11: who pulled the vote for speaker to the longest we've seen,

634
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 11: you know, in over one hundred years. Who have you know,

635
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 11: talked about maybe you know, recalling their own speaker. It's nonsense.

636
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 11: It is, you know, destructive to their own party. They

637
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 11: don't care. I wish they would listen, but I'm not

638
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 11: sure they will.

639
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 2: What do you think about this, Rick, Are we actually

640
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: going to have this fight in the full Uh? Yeah,

641
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: You're going to have fights similar to this, maybe not

642
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: this one. They're not in the votes for these kinds

643
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: of things to happen in the House effectively, and they

644
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: certainly are dead on arrival in the Senate. Jasa makes

645
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: it sound fringe, right, and I think that's true. Sure, absolutely.

646
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 10: The problem is, as he points out, in an almost

647
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 10: evenly divided house of represent fringe matters, and so you

648
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 10: got to have them on the votes you need them for.

649
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 10: And nobody knows better how to tool that system than

650
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 10: a person like you know, Senator Boomerville, who is holding

651
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 10: up two hundred and fifty military.

652
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: Appointments all on his own right.

653
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 10: So, thank goodness they don't have those rules in the

654
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 10: House or representatives.

655
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: It's meant to be unruly.

656
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 10: But you know, as long as the Speaker is able

657
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 10: to get things done like he did on the debt ceiling,

658
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 10: as long as business can continue to transact, and it

659
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 10: sounds like there are more deals that are bipartisan in

660
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 10: the works in the House, then I think you can

661
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 10: have a productive ten year speaker. But the minute you

662
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 10: start listening to the fringe and doing things that they

663
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 10: want you to do, you're just wasting time.

664
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: Rick Davis, GD Shanzano back with us next and we're

665
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: going to add the voice of Greg's store with new

666
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 2: revelations about ethics on the Supreme Court.

667
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

668
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

669
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

670
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

671
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

672
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: New questions today about ethics in the Supreme Court, the

673
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: code of conducts, as we learned from Pro Publica once

674
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: again now taking aim at Justice Samuel Alito reportedly failing

675
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: to disclose a luxury fishing trip he took with billionaire

676
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: Paul Singer, declining to recuse himself from cases involving the

677
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: hedge fund founder. As I read on the terminal, of course,

678
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: we've actually heard back from Alito pretty remarkable by way

679
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: of an outbed on the Wall Street Journal late yesterday.

680
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: Alito accusing Pro Publica of issuing false charges against him,

681
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: says he was not required to disclose the free jet

682
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 2: trip he received from Singer to get to Alaska under

683
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: Supreme Court rules at the time, so he didn't know

684
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: Singer was by the way before the Court, which is

685
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: an important part of this and we want to learn

686
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: a bit more about it with the help of Greg

687
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: Store Bloomberg's, of course Supreme Court expert. We'd call him reporter,

688
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: but it's more than that. And it's great to see

689
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: you here Greg, as we do this all over again.

690
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what Pro Publica has up its sleeve next,

691
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: but it's generated calls for some level of reform, certainly

692
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: on Capitol Hill. But we have, you know, a separation

693
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 2: of powers issue here, and John Roberts said just recently

694
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: in some rare public remarks that he's got this.

695
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 10: I want to assure people that I am committed to

696
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 10: making certain.

697
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 12: That we as a court adhere to the highest standards

698
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 12: of conduct.

699
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: So what do you make of this latest round here

700
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: and does it prompt another look at the code?

701
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 12: It certainly prompts another look among people who have been

702
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 12: critical of the Court. I mean, these are very similar

703
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 12: circumstances that we had with Justice Clarence Thomas, where he

704
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 12: took luxury vacations over a number of years paid for

705
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 12: by a Republican mega donor. Alito's case is just one vacation,

706
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 12: and it's somebody who more clearly had business before the

707
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 12: Court at a future point. But generally it's the same

708
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 12: sort of thing and the dynamic we have seen as

709
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 12: there has been a lot of criticism of the Court

710
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 12: and the Court has shown very little reaction to that.

711
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 2: The idea of Congress taking action here doesn't seem to

712
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: be going very far. Congress, is that even possible with

713
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: the way our government is set up?

714
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 11: Here?

715
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: Is that a waste of breath on Capitol Hill?

716
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 12: It's certainly difficult when you have a divided Congress the

717
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 12: way we do now. You know, Republicans are mostly saying

718
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 12: these are just attacks on the Court by people who

719
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 12: don't like what the Court is doing, and certainly, you

720
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 12: know there's a correlation there. The attacks are many of

721
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 12: them are coming from people who are very unhappy about, say,

722
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 12: the abortion ruling from last year.

723
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: Even if everybody agreed, though, isn't there a separation of

724
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: powers issue here? I mean this would be held up

725
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: in court.

726
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 12: There is a question about that the Court has in

727
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 12: Chief Justice Roberts has sort of suggested, it's not clear

728
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 12: Congress has the authority to impose a code of Congress

729
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 12: on us. And at the same time, the Court has

730
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,439
Speaker 12: declined to actually adopt one itself and say we will

731
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 12: adhere to this. Instead, they sort of have put out

732
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 12: a kind of a statement of principles. They say these

733
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 12: are the things we do, but it's not the kind

734
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 12: of binding, enforceable code of conduct that some other folks

735
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 12: would like.

736
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 2: What do you make of Alito's response here by way

737
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: of an op ed light It's like open warfare on

738
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: the media with a Supreme Court justice.

739
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 12: It's amazing, Yeah, remarkable. Of course he put that out

740
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 12: even before the Pro Publica story published. He got an

741
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 12: email that according to the to the editor's note, he

742
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 12: got an email from them on Friday of last week.

743
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 12: I believe it was saying, we need to get an

744
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 12: answer from.

745
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 13: You by.

746
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 12: Tuesday, and instead of you know, responding to the reporters

747
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 12: who asked the questions, he publishes this op ed, which

748
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 12: is the Wall Street Journal editorial page, was apparently happy

749
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 12: to do it. One little contrast, I'll put to you

750
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 12: twenty eleven, there was an issue involving a case that

751
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 12: he was involved in where he didn't refuse even though

752
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 12: his children own stock in Disney, which was involved in

753
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 12: the case. And in that case I actually did an

754
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 12: interview with him where he explained that it was an

755
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 12: oversight and he hadn't realized that children own the stock

756
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 12: which they got from a grandparent. The difference in the

757
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 12: reaction is just striking over the course of over twelve years.

758
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: Well, I bet you read that with some from real attention. Greg,

759
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 2: thank you for coming over. Good luck with the coverage

760
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: that follows, because you're in for some pretty big breaking

761
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: news over the coming days and weeks. Greg Store, Bloomberg

762
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: News Supreme Court Reporter. Always a great pleasure to have

763
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: with us here, and thanks for spending some time with us.

764
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: Greg.

765
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: As we reassembled our panel, Rick Davis and Genie Shanzino

766
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: along for the ride here. Genie, what's your thought when

767
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: we start talking about a code of conduct? Listen to

768
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: Senator Richard Blumenthal. The last time Pro Publica came out

769
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: with his story, As Greg mentioned, it was then about

770
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: Clarence tom.

771
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 9: I believe in the separation of powers, but that doesn't

772
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 9: mean anything goes with the Supreme Court. They have to

773
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 9: have a code of ethics. They can do it themselves.

774
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: So what should happen or what could happen? Genie?

775
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 11: They should have a code of ethics, They should strengthen

776
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 11: what they have already. They should at the very minimum

777
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 11: be following what other federal agencies have to follow. Obviously,

778
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 11: if we have separation of powers and they can do

779
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 11: it themselves. But can we just say this was the

780
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 11: weirdest op and maybe I've ever read it was like

781
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 11: written from an SNL writer. I mean he's saying, oh,

782
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 11: you know, don't worry because the trip wasn't as luxurious

783
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 11: as you may imagine. The wine wasn't a thousand dollars.

784
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 11: I mean you've read it.

785
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: He was only filling an empty seat.

786
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 11: Yes, And somebody said, like, is it a weird uber

787
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 11: thing for millionaires that you know, if there's a seat open,

788
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 11: you could happen. It is the weirdest read. Everybody should

789
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 11: get a glance. If he paid a PR person, as

790
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 11: people have been saying, he needs to get his money back.

791
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 11: Very strange prebuttle.

792
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: Up it, Rick Davis, what's your take here. We're expecting

793
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: news on some big cases affirmative action, student loan forgiveness,

794
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: et cetera. Public sentiment around this court has been plummeting

795
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: because of stories like these. Does something need to happen?

796
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that the reality is it is the

797
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 10: public opinion you mentioned. That's the biggest problem for the

798
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 10: Supreme Court. They do require, you know, public support to

799
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 10: you know, be able to make the rulings and implement

800
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 10: the law as they see the Constitution directing it. And

801
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 10: it wouldn't do any good if they're seen as an

802
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 10: illegitimate body. And in this case, you know, being able

803
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 10: to recuse yourself in the case of Alito and Justice

804
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 10: Thomas recently means that that you recuse yourself if there's

805
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 10: a threat of bias, right, Not that like you've got

806
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 10: a direct conflict of interests, like you've got money on

807
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 10: this decision, you know, but that if it if it

808
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 10: looks like you might be biased. And and I can't

809
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 10: imagine a situation in both of these cases where both

810
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 10: individuals who funded these trips were had cases in front

811
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 10: of the Court that it didn't look like that after

812
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 10: the fact they'd be biased. So one of two things

813
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 10: has to happen for credibility. Roberts has to implement a

814
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 10: new accountability to the court where they have to report

815
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 10: these things, and those reports need to be made public

816
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 10: because without the public consent of the govern then you're

817
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 10: going to lose integrity in your institution. And at a

818
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 10: time when this Supreme Court wants to actually make policy

819
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 10: and be more aggressive than any Supreme Court in modern period,

820
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 10: they're going to lose the support of the people who

821
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 10: they are supposed to be charged to govern.

822
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: Is John Roberts the man to make those changes?

823
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 10: John Roberts is the only man to make those changes,

824
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 10: and there's no real evidence that he's on his way

825
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 10: to making those.

826
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: That's my question, though, Is he up to it?

827
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: Is he?

828
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 10: I think most people I've talked to who follow the

829
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 10: court think that that nothing's going to happen. They basically

830
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 10: have told me, don't hold your breath. John Roberts is

831
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 10: not that kind of guy.

832
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 2: We'll wait for the next pro public I guess, or

833
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: Genie will wait for the next stop ed. It was

834
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: just remarkable to read. Thanks to Greg's store for popping over.

835
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: Rick and Jeanie stay with us for some final thoughts

836
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: next on this International Day of Yoga.

837
00:41:54,160 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast.

838
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: Catch the program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio,

839
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg

840
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa

841
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play

842
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: Bloomberg eleven thirty.

843
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 2: Did you know today is International Day of Yoga? Maybe

844
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: you've seen coverage this of the events happening all over

845
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: the world as they try to raise awareness about the

846
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: physical and mental benefits of practicing yoga. One of those

847
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: events taking place earlier on the front lawn of the

848
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: United Nations in New York. Presson, Yes, the own that

849
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: kicked things off for a big event, including none other

850
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: than India's Prime Minister. Yeah, Narendra Modi actually doing yoga

851
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: with people there a day before he visits the White House.

852
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 13: NA does the power of yoga to build breed is

853
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 13: a friendship, a peaceful world and a cleaner, cleaner and

854
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 13: sustendable future.

855
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: A cleaner and leaner I like that. You know who

856
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: else showed up? I believe he's a devout vegetarian. I

857
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: guess I should have known he was into yoga.

858
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 3: This International Yoga Day is an international call for us

859
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: to stand up for humankind across the globe in all

860
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 3: living being.

861
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: Mister Mayor Eric Adams on this International Day of Yoga,

862
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: Rick Davis, Genie Shanzano, you do wonder, Genie, if Washington

863
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 2: could use a little bit of yoga.

864
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 11: They absolutely could. And here I was thinking, it's the

865
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 11: first day of summer. We're supposed to go to the beaches,

866
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 11: you know, relax, and I should have gone there and

867
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 11: done my yoga poses for God's sake.

868
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: Joe Matthews, Yeah, well keep you know, shame working on

869
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: the core here, Rick, What do you think, I mean,

870
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 2: if lawmakers did a little more yoga, you think we'd

871
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: produce anything more, get along better in Washington.

872
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 10: I'm a pretty confident there's a yoga coccus on Capitol Hill.

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Speaker 10: So if you want to get into a little matt

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Speaker 10: work with the congressman and senators, I'm sure we can

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Speaker 10: arrange that for you.

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Speaker 2: Joe, Yeah, absolutely, I feel like this is the coming together.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Eric Adam showed up there for a reason, right,

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Speaker 2: He is a vegetarian, right, or he's a he's a vegan.

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Speaker 2: He's the real thing. If I remember correctly. You don't

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00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: have to answer that. Rick, thank you. It's great to

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Speaker 2: have you in the Capitol with us. Genie, thank you

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00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: in New York. Like I want you guys to breathe now,

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00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 2: we're going to ease into this second hour and make

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00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: room for Kaylee Lyons. Yes, that's right, Jared. We're feeling

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00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: centers on the fastest show in politics. I'm a stake.

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00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Sound on podcast. Make sure

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00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 2: to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and

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00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,520
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Speaker 2: Eastern Times by Bloomberg dot com.