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Speaker 1: On the Bechdecast, the questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 2: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 2: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn bast

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Speaker 2: start changing.

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Speaker 1: With the Bechdel cast.

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Speaker 3: Oh hello, hey, did you want to hear some gossip

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Speaker 3: about Jamie Loftis that stupid bitch?

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Speaker 4: What to wait?

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Speaker 1: That's not a word that we use here, certainly not

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Speaker 1: outside of Kennel's. Oh yeah, Also, this is Jamie on

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Speaker 1: the phone.

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Speaker 3: What the hell you're Jamie loftis?

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Speaker 1: Oh noah no, and I'm I'm fucking your husband?

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Speaker 4: Oh sorry, wow, sorry.

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Speaker 1: Look a girl. A girl has to survive. I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. They hate think you found me in

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Speaker 1: a perfume counter. There's nothing I could do. Job, It's fine.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bexdel Cast. Really feminist exchange we just had.

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Speaker 1: Oh we can do a mid Atlantic accents today. My

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Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftis.

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Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Doronte.

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Speaker 1: Okay, come on, get on.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: I find the way they speak in this whole era

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Speaker 3: very grading. I'm so sorry everyone.

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Speaker 1: I look, I think you may be alone on the

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Speaker 1: zoom call but we will, we will fortune.

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Speaker 3: I'm going I'm going to be the villain of this episode.

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to be the joan of the episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so true. Yeah, oh my gosh, Yeah, I'm the Crystal.

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Speaker 3: What's her name?

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Speaker 5: Crystal Adams mess, Crystal Alan, Crystal Allan, great character name,

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Speaker 5: great character name, all around.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about the women in nineteen thirty nine today.

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Speaker 1: Very thrilling. But before we get there, before we get

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Speaker 1: to words that aren't frequently spoken outside of Kennel's, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about what the hell this show is because it's

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Speaker 1: actually very very relevant to the themes of our show today, Kitlyn,

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Speaker 1: where are we?

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Speaker 6: What's happening?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 3: This is the Bechdel Cast, a podcast where we examine

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Speaker 3: movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test

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Speaker 3: simply as a jumping off point, that, of course, being

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Speaker 3: a media metric created by dear friend of the show,

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Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel alumni. Indeed, there are many versions of this test.

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Speaker 3: The one that we use is do two people of

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Speaker 3: a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?

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Speaker 3: And is there conversation about something other than a man,

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Speaker 3: and then we particularly like it when it's a narratively

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Speaker 3: meaningful conversation and not just like throwaway dialogue that you

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Speaker 3: could cut out and the story would be no different.

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Speaker 1: And just to get ahead of our conversation about this,

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Speaker 1: because this movie, the movie we're covering today, nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: nine's The Women, adapted from a nineteen thirty six play,

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Speaker 1: is a movie that's come up on the show. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I think almost is the first yes, because there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of popular, I think popular narratives around this

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Speaker 1: movie that are not necessarily true when you watch the movie.

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Speaker 1: I think that this was almost like a memafied piece

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Speaker 1: of like twenty tens information that would make the rounds

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Speaker 1: every so often is that The Women is a movie

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Speaker 1: that came out in the nineteen thirties that features only

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Speaker 1: women on screen, but doesn't pass the Bachtel test after

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a beloved movie for me. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk about our respective histories, but I think that that really,

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Speaker 1: if this is a memafied piece of information you've absorbed

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Speaker 1: by osmosis I certainly had. I think you will find

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Speaker 1: yourself pleasantly surprised by how what what a dense, rich

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Speaker 1: text this is at least for two thirds of the

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Speaker 1: movie and then the end of But I wanted to

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Speaker 1: address that at the top of the episode because I

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Speaker 1: think we have referenced this movie in a number of ways,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure the further back you go, the you know,

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Speaker 1: less sophisticated the conversation becomes and now we're perfect geniuses.

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Speaker 3: So we have to correct the record, of course.

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Speaker 1: But I just I'm so excited to talk about I

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Speaker 1: can feel myself talking faster for having watched this movie

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Speaker 1: twice in the last two days. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: fabulous darting. So yes, that is the Bechdel test, and

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Speaker 1: we have an incredible guest today, so let's hop to it.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it. He is a professor of English at

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Speaker 3: the University of Wisconsin Madison, host of the podcast Nerd

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Speaker 3: from the Future, and author of the books The New

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Speaker 3: Mutants and Queer Forms. It's Ramsey Fawas. Hello, welcome, Hey, thanks.

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Speaker 6: For having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, really brave. I was like, wow, I

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Speaker 1: can already fill our guests being like he him on

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Speaker 1: the episode about the women.

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Speaker 6: Listen lock In, lock In, we bound through it. I'm

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Speaker 6: lost in.

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Speaker 7: I have listened I've always felt the affinity with women

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Speaker 7: from the beginning of time. I say at the end

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Speaker 7: of my book Queer Forms, I say, this book is

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Speaker 7: a love letter to feminism and the women in my life.

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Speaker 7: So I have never felt any problem with the idea

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Speaker 7: of cross identification, like let's go.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a Q core movie, like this is

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Speaker 1: this is a girl's in Cays kind of.

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Speaker 6: Movie, and yes, yes, it's really.

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Speaker 1: We're so excited to have you. First of all, thank

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Speaker 1: you for coming.

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Speaker 6: Thank you me too. I can't believe I haven't been

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Speaker 6: here before.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: We're being huge the dogs they put in kennels by

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Speaker 1: not having Yeah, but we love your work.

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Speaker 6: And I thank you. That's so humbly well.

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Speaker 1: Truly, And I'm very curious because I've had a Celsius

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Speaker 1: today and I'm vibrating. I'm so curious what your history

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Speaker 1: with this movie is.

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Speaker 7: So, you know, when I was asked to create a

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Speaker 7: list of movies to potentially talk with you both about,

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Speaker 7: this was one of the ones that popped out from

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Speaker 7: from you guys sent me a list of possibilities that

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Speaker 7: I was like, Oh, the women they haven't talked about

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Speaker 7: the women.

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Speaker 6: Amazing. I encountered the women in the single most formative.

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Speaker 7: Undergraduate course I ever took at UC Berkeley. I took

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Speaker 7: a class on the year nineteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so jealous.

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Speaker 6: That's cool.

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Speaker 7: My mentor, my great mentor, Kathleen Moran, who's on my

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Speaker 7: own podcast.

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Speaker 6: She's on one of the last episodes of the first season.

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Speaker 6: She's incredible. She had invented this.

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Speaker 7: Class with a brilliant political theorist who was her best

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Speaker 7: friend named Michael Rogan, who had just died a year

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Speaker 7: before I came to Berkeley. So it was the first

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Speaker 7: time she was teaching it on her own, and people,

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Speaker 7: if people don't know, the audience doesn't know. Nineteen thirty

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Speaker 7: nine is this unbelievably momentous year in American politics, history, culture.

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Speaker 7: It's the moment of sort of the waning of the

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Speaker 7: Great Depression as we entered World War Two. It's the

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Speaker 7: moment that we start to commit ourselves to the arms

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Speaker 7: race leading up to World War Two. It's also the

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Speaker 7: golden age of Hollywood, So it's like that year alone

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Speaker 7: produces the Wizard of Oz MGM, the Grapes of Wrath Gone.

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Speaker 4: With the win, mister Smith goes to.

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Speaker 7: Yes, misters Smith, we watched that amazing. I mean, these

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Speaker 7: are that one year. Four of the films are considered

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Speaker 7: by the British Film Institute to be four of the

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Speaker 7: most important movies ever made. So I found that class

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Speaker 7: just extraordinary that you could study, like all the different

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Speaker 7: dimensions of American culture through the prism of this one year.

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Speaker 7: Of course, we study things that were also fell outside

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Speaker 7: of that year. We study things that are sort of

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Speaker 7: mid thirties, early forties. But it was an amazing and

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Speaker 7: transformative thing, and I want your listenership to.

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Speaker 6: Know how I watched it.

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Speaker 7: We read the work of Elizabeth Hawes, who was a socialist,

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Speaker 7: feminist fashion designer.

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Speaker 1: Each word better than the last, isn't this that's like fascinating.

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Speaker 7: She wrote this incredible book that nobody reads now, but

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Speaker 7: everybody should get their hands on it called Fashion Is Spinach,

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Speaker 7: and it was basically her saying that for her early

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Speaker 7: part of her career she worked for all these couturiers

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Speaker 7: in France, and she said, basically, what would happen is

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Speaker 7: that there are these companies where they would send people

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Speaker 7: like me to go look at the designer clothes on

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Speaker 7: the runway for Dior and to copy them for middle

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Speaker 7: class women who couldn't afford the originals. And she said,

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Speaker 7: at some point I was like, why am I wasting

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Speaker 7: my life doing this?

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Speaker 6: I should bring couture level clothes to working class people.

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Speaker 7: And so she comes back to the United States and

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Speaker 7: she starts making ready to wear clothes but that are

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Speaker 7: made with a coturier's eye for men who work in factories.

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Speaker 7: And so it forced us as the students to think

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Speaker 7: about The Women as a movie that is partly about

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Speaker 7: fashion and about how women use fashion to exert.

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Speaker 6: Some kind of social control in the world.

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Speaker 7: We'll talk today about how like there's suddenly a full

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Speaker 7: color sequence that's a fashion show in the middle of

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Speaker 7: the movie.

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Speaker 1: God and another minute queer icon moment for it because

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Speaker 1: it's all Adrian clothes too, which is like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: had every time I watch this movie, because I watched

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Speaker 1: it about six months ago just for because it was

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Speaker 1: on Canopy. Yeah, the first outfit we see Roslin russelln

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Speaker 1: with the eyeballs, and like I would, I would cut

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Speaker 1: my own head off to own that. I know.

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Speaker 6: Good honey, this is modernism and this is daw Da.

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Speaker 1: The disembodied hand during the Bashi Job.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, this is like the Lesbians of the Left Bank. Honey,

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Speaker 7: we go like it's it's wide what we see on screen.

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Speaker 1: Truly, mm hmmm, truly.

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Speaker 6: So that's kind of my history with it.

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Speaker 7: And then I remember seeing the two thousand and eight

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Speaker 7: version and sort of being like, oh, I feel like

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Speaker 7: they missed the point of what this movie is about,

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Speaker 7: even though it's entertaining and I like all the people

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Speaker 7: in it, and it stuck with me. The last thing,

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Speaker 7: I'll say, it stuck with me deeply because there is

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Speaker 7: a book that I adore that I wish more people read.

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Speaker 7: There's a book by this feminist cultural studies scholar named

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Speaker 7: Janie Scandura. She wrote this amazing book called Down in

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Speaker 7: the Dumps about depressive modernity and needs. The book that

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Speaker 7: is all about the idea that American modernism, which is

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Speaker 7: all about the future and progress and advancement and civilization,

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Speaker 7: requires the production of a culture of waste, of throwing

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Speaker 7: away of the fact that like in the Great Depression,

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Speaker 7: millions of appliances that people could no longer afford had

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Speaker 7: to be thrown and were thrown away into dumpsters and

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Speaker 7: all of this stuff. And she does a chapter about

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Speaker 7: Reno as the dumpster factory for women, the idea that

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Speaker 7: Reno was this place in Nevada that women were basically

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Speaker 7: disposed of in our culture, like they're thrown away when

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Speaker 7: they get divorces. And I remember reviewing the movie after

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Speaker 7: I had read that book and being like, oh my god,

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Speaker 7: this is a document of Reno as this place right

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Speaker 7: where they say, where women get renovated so that they

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Speaker 7: can get married again. And so that was the other

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Speaker 7: kind of dimension of my relationship to the movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh kidding, this is Oh you just gave me an

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Speaker 1: incredible reading list.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, such a good book. It's wonderful.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this movie really does. I've seen different depictions

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Speaker 1: of Reno in media, old and new. I mean I

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Speaker 1: think also about how in mad And there was like

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Speaker 1: a whole Reno narrative way back in the day. But like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but this is the most compelling. Yeah, and also manages

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Speaker 1: to make Reno look kind of fun, a dreamy, yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of like oh, it's just kind of like girls camp.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you're horseback riding.

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Speaker 6: You know, we're vibing.

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Speaker 1: I'm like we should all just maybe stay here.

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Speaker 6: This is like the beginnings of a compound.

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Speaker 1: We're so close.

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Speaker 7: There's another representation of Reno, I would say, in this

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Speaker 7: very famous, very dark drama with Marilyn Monroe, which was

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Speaker 7: written for her by Arthur Miller after they had divorced.

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Speaker 7: It's one of the last movies that she makes. I

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Speaker 7: don't know why I'm forgetting the title.

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Speaker 1: It's so Clark Gable one or not that's before that.

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Speaker 8: Okay.

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Speaker 7: It has another very famous male lead, but it is

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Speaker 7: about a woman who's been divorced and she's in Reno,

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Speaker 7: and it is a very dark, brilliant I mean, I

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Speaker 7: think Monroe is a genius, and I think like it's

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Speaker 7: her first time trying to do a dramatic role, and

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Speaker 7: Miller sort of writes this role that's.

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Speaker 6: Both amazingly suited to her and that's very punishing.

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Speaker 7: He makes her seem sort of liking a promiscuous woman

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Speaker 7: because he's mad at her about the failure of their marriage.

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Speaker 1: And so make love.

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Speaker 4: Is that it?

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Speaker 6: That might be it? That might be it?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 6: If so?

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Speaker 1: Directed by George Kucore. Pretty cool.

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Speaker 6: Oh stop?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, parallels. Wow, that's that's incredible. Yeah. I think that

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Speaker 1: her her last movie is The Misfits, that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking of.

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Speaker 6: That's what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's the Missing It is okay, great, it's.

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Speaker 7: Incredible that people should be watching that movie. That's an

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Speaker 7: incredible movie.

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Speaker 1: I've got to see it. I still have never seen it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I hear it reference constantly.

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Speaker 4: I haven't actually seen it.

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Speaker 7: It is very moving and very powerful, and of course

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Speaker 7: written by one of the greatest playwrights of all time.

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Speaker 6: Yes, you're right, it is Clark Gable. It is like

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Speaker 6: kind of at the end of his career when he

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Speaker 6: becomes sort of a little bit of a has been.

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Speaker 7: Sort of like you know, actually like Leonardo DiCaprio's character

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Speaker 7: in Once Upon a Time on Hollywood. He's still a

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Speaker 7: hard throb and he's still a big deal, but is

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Speaker 7: like waning and it is a pretty it's a very

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Speaker 7: moving film.

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Speaker 1: And Montgomery Clift. Wow, there's so.

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Speaker 6: Much Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Okay, I'm having a great time. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that. Caitlyn. What is your history with

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Speaker 1: the women?

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Speaker 3: Well, and here comes my villainy go for it.

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Speaker 4: Go well.

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Speaker 3: Listeners of the show will probably know that I am

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Speaker 3: not that big of a fan of the classic Hollywood

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Speaker 3: era Okay. There are very few movies from this time period,

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Speaker 3: and I've seen many of them, but there are very

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Speaker 3: few that I connect with or have any affection for,

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Speaker 3: and this one, so sorry, not really one of them.

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Speaker 6: It's a hard pass.

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Speaker 3: Well, So I saw it for the first time a

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Speaker 3: few years ago because it would come up on the

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Speaker 3: show here and there.

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Speaker 6: So interesting, and it wasn't really on.

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Speaker 3: My radar before that, but it would. It would be

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Speaker 3: referenced pretty frequently by you, Jamie or guests, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, what's this movie? So I watched it and

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, okay, it just doesn't really appeal

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Speaker 3: to my sensibilities. You know, I have a lot to say,

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Speaker 3: a lot to talk about. I'm still sort of like

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Speaker 3: forming opinions about it. The end drives me nuts.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but I don't think it could have ended any

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Speaker 1: other way in nineteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 3: But right, so, but yeah, it's it's it gives us

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Speaker 3: lots to talk about. Yeah, but again, I'm not as

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Speaker 3: enthusiastic about this era of cinema in general. So I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna be the nah person on the show.

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Speaker 6: The kill Joy. Yeah, we always need a kill.

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Speaker 4: Joy, we do. Thank you.

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Speaker 6: Balance by the way.

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Speaker 7: I'm about to be a kill joy for Heated Rivalry

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Speaker 7: because I keep telling you, I'm writing an essay for

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Speaker 7: Film Quarterly about how much I can't stand it, not

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Speaker 7: even not the actors who I adore, and I'm so

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Speaker 7: glad that they're getting all the success.

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Speaker 6: And it is a very sexy and hot show. I

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Speaker 6: think it's message is awful, and I think people's.

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Speaker 7: Unhinged obsession with it really needs to be put in

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Speaker 7: its place. And so I listen, we all need to

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Speaker 7: occupy that seat at some point or another.

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Speaker 3: People just have to come in and be a female

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Speaker 3: dog in a kennel. Yeah, yes, yeah, I still haven't

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Speaker 3: seen Heated Rivalry, but I just know that everyone I

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Speaker 3: talked to is obsessed with it.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm going to wait until I get the flu,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm going to watch Heated Rivalry.

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Speaker 6: Right, not a bad idea, I think that's right.

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Speaker 1: That's how I watch most television, as I wish.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jamie, what is your relationship with the women in

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirty nine?

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Speaker 1: I really love it. I've trying to remember specifically what

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Speaker 1: when I first saw it. I think it probably would

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Speaker 1: have been in college. But I've been on a journey

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Speaker 1: with this movie where I did sort of feel, you know,

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Speaker 1: buy into a lot of popular narratives around this movie.

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Speaker 1: Prior to oh, I think probably around twenty twenty one

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Speaker 1: would have been my big turning point with this movie

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Speaker 1: because I'd seen it.

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Speaker 4: I enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: I enjoy this like dialogue Cadence, I like old Hollywood divas,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of it works for me. And I

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Speaker 1: also like the you know, sort of, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better phrase, gimmick of this of we don't see

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Speaker 1: a man, we simply don't and how refreshing not.

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Speaker 3: A single man, not a single man's voice. Even the

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Speaker 3: animals on screen are all female ANIMs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I like, I really appreciate that, But I did

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Speaker 1: I think in prior references to this, I sort of like,

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Speaker 1: even though I'd seen it, i'd like, basically enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: I also find the ending very dated and frustrating in

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Speaker 1: a way that I feel, like, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that there are reclaimable elements to it, particularly the more

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Speaker 1: I learned about the context of who wrote it, how

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Speaker 1: it was written, when it was written, all this, But

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Speaker 1: I still do find the ending like I'm never looking

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Speaker 1: forward to the ending of the Women. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to the first hour and a half. But I had

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Speaker 1: a churning point with this movie probably around yeah, around

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Speaker 1: the pandemic, because that was the time that I was

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Speaker 1: working on Act Cast, which listeners of the show probably

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Speaker 1: already know, was a podcast that took a look at

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Speaker 1: the Kathie comics of the seventies into the twenty tens

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Speaker 1: and how it was sort of this mirror to in

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Speaker 1: conversation with feminist movements of the time and before, and

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Speaker 1: so to do that I did, like my first which

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Speaker 1: feels kind of like ridiculous, but like my first deep

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Speaker 1: feminist history research, at least in America. And since doing that,

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Speaker 1: going back to movies of this era has been interesting

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Speaker 1: because you can pick up on what it's in conversation with,

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Speaker 1: which I think this movie is very much in conversation

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Speaker 1: with the results of the first wave of feminism, and weirdly,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but also before World War Two, in the

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Speaker 1: sense that we are not encouraging women to be in

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Speaker 1: the workplace quite yet. It's not seen as a noble thing.

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Speaker 1: It's seen as kind of embarrassing. So I really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: especially the first two thirds of this movie that it

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Speaker 1: is doing a lot. It's written by women all the

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Speaker 1: way down, and like fascinating women. It is directed by

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Speaker 1: like one of the most famous queer directors ever, George Qcore.

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Speaker 1: It features designs by Adrian It's just like it's girls

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Speaker 1: and gays. It's girls and gays, and so it is

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Speaker 1: impossible for me to dislike. But my favorite thing learning

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Speaker 1: about it in this round as I never really I

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Speaker 1: knew that the there's two women screenwriters, which already nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty nine is like amazing. I really do appreciate that

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Speaker 1: to a larger extent than the majority of productions at

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Speaker 1: this time, and still like that there is some level

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Speaker 1: of commitment to the women behind the camera as well,

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Speaker 1: where it's based on a work by a woman and

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Speaker 1: it is adapted by two women, including someone we've talked

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Speaker 1: about before show Anita Lows, who wrote Gentlemen Prefer Blondes

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Speaker 1: and also adapted Gigi for Broadway. Just like a complete legend.

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Speaker 4: She's a genius, she really is.

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Speaker 7: I mean, I recommend people to go read the original

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Speaker 7: Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. It's a work of nineteen twenties modernism.

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Speaker 7: It is experimental and avant garde. She's playing with language

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Speaker 7: and she is exploring what it looks like for women

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Speaker 7: to have to invent a language of sounding dumb while

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Speaker 7: being smart.

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Speaker 6: That's the whole point of the book.

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Speaker 7: It's about these two women who basically are using our

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Speaker 7: intentionally sounding stupid to men because they know that it

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Speaker 7: is a way to manipulate social like socially constructed mores

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Speaker 7: around gender to get what they want. And there's that

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Speaker 7: great you know, in the Marilyn Monroe adaptation in the fifties,

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Speaker 7: there's that great moment right at the end where the

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Speaker 7: father of the man she's marrying just can't stand to

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Speaker 7: her because he's like, you're a gold digger, and she's like, no,

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Speaker 7: I love your son and also want his money. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: And she's like, if you had a daughter, wouldn't you

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Speaker 7: want her to marry for love.

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Speaker 6: And money because you're rich.

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Speaker 7: And he looks at her and he's like, you know what,

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Speaker 7: You're right, And it's a kind of an amazing moment

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Speaker 7: where Lewis is saying, like, we're all playing a certain

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Speaker 7: game within this arrangement, and like, let's just admit that

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Speaker 7: women know what the game is right, and let's act naive.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciate.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we cover gentlemen prefer Blondes all the way

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Speaker 1: back in twenty eighteen with such a good movie Koreana

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Speaker 1: Longworth the legend. But it's something I want to revisit

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Speaker 1: and kind of take another crack at, because yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: Anita Lowe's is wonderful.

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Speaker 4: Co written with Jane Murfin, who's also a prolific writer

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Speaker 4: of the time at a time where it's like women

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Speaker 4: working professionally as writers.

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Speaker 1: Was so rare, and the fact that this was you know,

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Speaker 1: a part of the marketing was that it was made

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Speaker 1: by women. Again, Yeah, it is telling of the misogyny

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Speaker 1: of the time then, and that it is a marketing

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Speaker 1: gimmick that women made it.

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Speaker 6: Sure, but I think.

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Speaker 1: It's really impressive and really cool, And yeah, this was

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Speaker 1: my first time learning about sort of getting back to it.

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Speaker 1: I knew about the screenwriters, I didn't really know about

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Speaker 1: the original playwright, Claire booth Loose, who will talk about

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Speaker 1: her in the contact section of the episode, but just like,

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Speaker 1: holy shit, she's so cool. I was so blown away

437
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 1: by like just her life in general, because in ways

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Speaker 1: where I.

439
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Speaker 4: Was trying to understand. I think I'm always trying to understand.

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Speaker 4: It is clear to me that.

441
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 1: The writers and actors and director all love these characters,

442
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: where even when characters are presented I think in a

443
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: heavily stereotyped way, in certain cases it feels less.

444
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 4: Punching down than you would expect.

445
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: I think, particularly in the case of Sylvia's character, which

446
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 1: we'll talk about, I feel like Sylvia.

447
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 4: I was like, I think that she's.

448
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: So funny and you are given the proper context to

449
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 1: understand why she's doing.

450
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 4: What she's doing, even though what she's doing is horrible.

451
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 1: And I'm very excited to talk about that because Claire

452
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: Booth Loose was the other woman, you know, like she

453
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: and in the same way with Crystal, where like Crystal

454
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: is framed as a villain, but also like you have

455
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: the information you need to understand why she's doing what

456
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 1: she's doing, and she.

457
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 4: Gets she gets. I guess there's two last words in

458
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 4: this movie. She gets the better one. Yeah, frankly, because

459
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 4: Norvas sheers like pride is for losers.

460
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 1: I'm going back to my husband and you're like, well,

461
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: I think the line about bitches is far better. But

462
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: Claire Booth loose has been both of those women, and

463
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: I think that, like you can feel that where she

464
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: wrote this play and produced it a year after being

465
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: the Crystal Allen in her then husband's relationship, where she

466
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, whatever that dynamic played out he left his

467
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 1: wife for her. Then she wrote this play and released it,

468
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: and it feels like it was like an attempt to

469
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: process in a very kind of brutal way, just the

470
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: roles that women have to fill in how they relate

471
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: to each other. I'm going to shut up because it's

472
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: been like four hundred minutes since I started talking, But

473
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 1: I just.

474
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 4: I really really appreciate this spuffee.

475
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 1: I like it so much, and it makes me want

476
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: to talk really fast for a week.

477
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 6: Ooh.

478
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 7: Always, I think that's already how I live, so to

479
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 7: speak to Caitlin's point, I completely get it. But I

480
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 7: also like I speak and operate in this ballistic mode.

481
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 7: So while I don't always enjoy watching it, I'm fascinated

482
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 7: by it, and I think I have a lot to

483
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 7: say about that in a minute when we get back

484
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 7: to that.

485
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: Wonderful well, let's take a quick break and then we

486
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 3: will come back for the recap.

487
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 8: Yay and we're back.

488
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 3: Here is the story of the women.

489
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 4: That's yes, and we are introduced to just to set

490
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 4: the scene. It did crack me up.

491
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: It was it did not escape me that we do

492
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: begin the movie by introducing all of our main characters

493
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: by comparing them.

494
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: To wait for it, animal animals look look.

495
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: Very pretty, pretty like and and oh the older the

496
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: women get, the more cows and donkeys.

497
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 6: You're seeing horses.

498
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: Ye, horses.

499
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: You're You're like, okay, this is now, now let's hear

500
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: them out.

501
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 4: But that is a bad look, the bad luck to

502
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 4: start with, sure.

503
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 3: Right, because you have like the main character Mary is

504
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 3: a sweet, little innocent dough and then.

505
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, Crystal is a panther.

506
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 3: Gnarling, and Sylvia is a is a black cat going.

507
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: Amazing, which I was like, I wasn't even really quite getting.

508
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 4: There were some of the comparisons that I'm like, yeah, right.

509
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: Right, maybe it's just a reference to how some women

510
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: are catty, so they literally have cats.

511
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, the woman who gets into the late stage

512
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 9: cat fight in which it is said that Rosalind Russell

513
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 9: actually bit and gave a permanent scart to the other actor.

514
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 6: No, because it's hilarious.

515
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 4: And again that it's one of those old Hollywood anecdotes.

516
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: It's been rehashed so many times that you're like, it

517
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: might not be true, but sure, I've read it in more.

518
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 4: Than one place, so let's just leave it at that.

519
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 3: Amazing for sure. Yeah, Okay. So we open at a

520
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: salon full of women doing various beauty treatments because women

521
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 3: be doing their hair and nails and stuff, and a

522
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: manicurist is gossiping about a Missus Haynes and how her

523
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 3: husband is cheating on her, and she tells this to

524
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 3: Sylvia Fowler played by Rosalind Russell, who is friends with

525
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 3: this Missus Haynes, and then Sylvia also tells another of

526
00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 3: their mutual friends, Edith, played by Phyllis Pova, and the

527
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: two of them are kind of like reveling in this information,

528
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: this gossip, and they're trying to decide what to do

529
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: with it. Again, very caddy stuff. We cut to missus

530
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 3: Mary Haynes played by Norma Shear and her daughter Little Mary,

531
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: their horse riding together because they're rich. It seems like

532
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 3: every woman in this movie is a socialite who has

533
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: access to wealth to some degree, and Mary and her

534
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 3: daughter talk at length about Mary's husband, Stephen slash Little

535
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 3: Mary's father, and how they love him dearly, and it

536
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 3: seems like a very happy family. If Stephen is cheating

537
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 3: on her, Mary has no idea. Then Mary invites several

538
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: of her friends over for lunch, including Sylvia and Edith,

539
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 3: who we just met.

540
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: Sylvia wearing truly one of the greatest the eyeball articles

541
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: of clothing I've ever.

542
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 6: Seen, very Salvador Dolly.

543
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 4: It's just like and it's so it's like so character

544
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 4: driven that.

545
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: It's almost too much, but kind of like there's no

546
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: such thing as too much in this movie, and I

547
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: love that.

548
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 3: So they're there as well as Peggy, a sweet young

549
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 3: woman who got married recently, and then Nancy, an older

550
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: career woman, a writer who never got married.

551
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 7: So an old maid, as she says exactly. She's aware

552
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 7: of her.

553
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 6: Status as whatever spoiled goods.

554
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: Yes, but she has frozen assets, let's not forget. And

555
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: so she is society's worst nightmare. And she's well aware.

556
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: I every character, every almost every character, I'm like, you,

557
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: I die for them, Yeah, I die for them.

558
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so these women are all chatting and they're

559
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: like insulting each other, but in very like veiled ways. Again,

560
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 3: the cattiness is very present, and Sylvia keeps making all

561
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 3: of these remarks about Mary's husband, Stephen, insinuating that he's

562
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 3: cheating on her, stepping out, which stepping out on her.

563
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 4: I'm curious how, because there is just simply so much

564
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 4: dialogue in this movie.

565
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: I always forget and I try to figure out if

566
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: I miss it or if it just is very telegraphed

567
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: in one line of dialogue pretty late in the movie

568
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: that Mary and Sylvia are cousins. Yes, correct, which to

569
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: me because I feel like that not to stereotype all cousins,

570
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: but that contextualizes so much of Sylvia's behavior. It's like

571
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: this is her perfect older cousin. Sure, I don't think

572
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: it's said enough. I think that I that I needed

573
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: the Stranger Things Netflix treatment of being reminded they were

574
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: cousins at certain times.

575
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 7: This is like a crucial moment when the career woman

576
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 7: of the group says to Sylvia, like, of course you're

577
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 7: being about Mary because you can't.

578
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 6: Be happy that she's happy, right, She's actually contented.

579
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 7: There's an amazing line we could talk about later where

580
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 7: she says, you know you're unhappy that Mary is a

581
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 7: woman and that and Edith and Sylvia.

582
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 6: Say, well, what are we? She says, well, you're.

583
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: Females, right, like suggesting that like a woman is like

584
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: someone who is more evolved, someone.

585
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 4: Who is like a yeah, yeah, and there is.

586
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: But like, I just think it was really a really

587
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: smart choice to introduce like a familial jealousy. I feel

588
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: like it helps me get away from the like the

589
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: cattiness of it all, where you're like, oh, at any

590
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: time someone's related, I feel like I will tolerate thirty

591
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: percent more pettiness and all behavior.

592
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 10: You know.

593
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. So we see this interaction and Mary is like, hmm,

594
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: is my husband cheating on me? Then Stephen calls her

595
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: to tell her that he has to cancel a two

596
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 3: week trip to Canada that they were about to take

597
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: because he simply can't get away from work. And Mary

598
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: is very disappointed. And maybe because she is suspicious, or

599
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: maybe she's just taking Sylvia's nail color recommendation, but Mary.

600
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: Yes, so iconic.

601
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: Mary pays a visit to Sylvia's manicurist, the one who

602
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: is known for being super gossipy, and not realizing who

603
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: she's speaking to, the manicurist reveals that Mary's husband, Stephen,

604
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: is in fact having an affair with a woman named

605
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: Crystal Allen, who he met at a department store. Mary

606
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: is devastated by this. Her mother comes over and tells

607
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: Mary that basically all men cheat, including Mary's father, but

608
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: Stephen probably doesn't love this other woman, so Mary shouldn't

609
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: say anything or confront him, and basically just pretend like

610
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: it's not happening, especially because they have a daughter to

611
00:30:58,640 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: think about this.

612
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: One of the many things they appreciate about this movie

613
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: is its attention to generational differences at this exact moment.

614
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: It's really and because I think in a lesser movie,

615
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, while there is a clear argument and it's

616
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: not totally wrong to say that the older women in

617
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: this movie are portrayed as silly, right, but their perspectives

618
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: are clearly telegraphed and taken seriously. Absolutely as well as

619
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: her daughter, Like where I think that, you know so

620
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: often we see like oh little also such a.

621
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 4: Power move when women name their daughters after themselves. I

622
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 4: love that very Gilmore girls to do.

623
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 6: I think the daughter is totally weird.

624
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 7: The daughter is We're gonna come back to that. I

625
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 7: actually think the daughter is like very psychoanalytic. There's like

626
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 7: a whole Freudian thing going on it where she's having

627
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 7: like an electrocomplex where she's obsessed with her mom and

628
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 7: she almost wants to be her mom's girlfriend, and like,

629
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 7: I kind of love all that, but also like.

630
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 6: It's done in a way that's like not fun. It's

631
00:31:58,880 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 6: like weird.

632
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 4: If you're talking about the whole backscratching thing. I used

633
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 4: to do that with my.

634
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 7: Mom, but all of it, she's always like do you

635
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 7: love me as much as you love dad?

636
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: And like are you in love with me?

637
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: Mom?

638
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 6: Yeah?

639
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 7: She can't understand the idea that like the love between

640
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 7: a husband and a wife is different than the love

641
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 7: but like it's just like it's it's so accentuated in

642
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 7: the story that it's symptomatic.

643
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: I think the issue for me was that, like she

644
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: just seems a little bit too old to be thinking about.

645
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: That's exactly it for me.

646
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 4: That's fair one thing where it's like if you're six,

647
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 4: you're like what is this? But like she seems like eleven,

648
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 4: and I'm like.

649
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, she looks like she's eleven.

650
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 6: She's like, do you really love me?

651
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 7: Mommy, and you're like, your mom is obsessed with you,

652
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 7: Like you just said, she just named herself you after herself,

653
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 7: so like, relax.

654
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 4: Little Mary. Such a flex to do.

655
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish I liked my first name better because

656
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: that would be such a flex little Damie.

657
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 7: But I do want to say that the conversation with

658
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 7: the mom, I hope we were churned. That's one of

659
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 7: my favorite moments in the entire movie.

660
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 6: I think it's brilliant.

661
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 1: It's fascinating because it's like, you whatever, even in like

662
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: almost one hundred years later, you find yourself being like, well,

663
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: I hear what she's saying generationally, but like, no, Mary

664
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: needs to stand up for herself. And then she literally does,

665
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: and she's like, you know, it's just it's really cool.

666
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 4: I wish that this movie was allowed to end differently.

667
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 4: But also Hayes code, you know, yeah, we cannot be

668
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: disparaging marriage and the home. And that's later to bring

669
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 4: that back any day. Now, Hay's code is gonna come back,

670
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 4: coming back. He's good two point zero, Yeah, somehow worse.

671
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. In any case, So Mary's mother is trying to

672
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: convince Mary to not do anything about the knowledge of

673
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: this affair because basically, boys will be boys and just

674
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 3: accept it and move on. Mary is not willing really

675
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 3: to do this, and it seems like maybe to sort

676
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: of like take a break from this whole situation, she

677
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: decides to take her mother to Bermuda.

678
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 4: Well, and it's also a power move.

679
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: I think, like something that I thought was interesting tracking

680
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: Mary's behavior through this time, because I think, I don't know,

681
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of stuff.

682
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 4: That is a little more dismissive of Mary.

683
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: Than I feel of like, oh, she's too perfect, blah

684
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: blah blah, she's the perfect wife.

685
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 4: But it's like you can see that she's making decisions

686
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 4: not because.

687
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: She actually wants to be away from home, but because

688
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: she thinks that by leave, her husband will miss her

689
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: and that.

690
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 4: Will resolve the problem.

691
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 6: Which is what her mom told her. That was her

692
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 6: mom's idea exactly.

693
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, right, right right. I feel for her.

694
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: I think she's having like a weird like Frances hostile

695
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: vacation where she like does not want to be doing yet,

696
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: but is like it feels like I should be doing this.

697
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, while Mary is away, we meet Crystal Allen

698
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: played by Joan Crawford. She receives a phone call from Stephen,

699
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 3: who is canceling their dinner plans that night, even though

700
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: it's her birthday, because it seems like he is trying

701
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: to spend more time with and that he's like trying

702
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 3: to his wife is trying to focus on his marriage.

703
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: Then Mary's friends, Sylvia and Edith, the very gossipy ones,

704
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 3: go to the department store where Crystal works to find

705
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 3: her and basically fuck with her. They keep mentioning Stephen

706
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: Haynes and his wife and she's not like falling for it.

707
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: No, this is also like it doesn't I think we're

708
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: encouraged to think that this is not Crystal's first rodeo

709
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: when it comes to managing a situation like this. Yeah,

710
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: but this is her first rodeo dealing with these difas specifically.

711
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 4: But I just think it's so like and again we'll

712
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 4: come back to this, but there.

713
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: Is well, I do think it's like easy to reduce

714
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: that interaction to cattiness between women.

715
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 4: There is a clear class dynamic going on there too,

716
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 4: and oh for.

717
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: Throughout like again, just like the Shades of Gray that

718
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: I feel like this movie doesn't often get credit for.

719
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: It includes like care for generational perspectives and for class perspectives,

720
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: because not only is everyone every person we see on

721
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: screen a woman, and addressing the elephant in the room

722
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: now as we will later, majority majority, majority white women.

723
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: I think that there's two or three characters who are

724
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: black women who exist strictly in service roles.

725
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: Sure, I don't even think you could call them characters.

726
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: They're on screen for a minute or less.

727
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: They're there to react to what white women are doing,

728
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: including Butterfly McQueen, who also was in GOM with the

729
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: Win that year.

730
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 4: Yes, but this movie.

731
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: Is clearly only interested in the interests and affairs in

732
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: politics of white women, which.

733
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 4: Is very very relevant.

734
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: Within there there are generational and class perspectives that I

735
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: was like, especially doing like a close read of it

736
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: for this, like you're like, oh, there is more here

737
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: than I you know, generally give it credit for even

738
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: as a movie that I really like.

739
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, Okay. So then we cut to a couple

740
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: weeks later, Mary and her mother have returned from Bermuda,

741
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: and it seems like ever since then, Stephen has been

742
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 3: more attentive in their marriage, though we do not see

743
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 3: this on screen because again famously, there are no men

744
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: on screen at any.

745
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: Point, we just have to take back, bring it back,

746
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: So we're just kind of taking Mary's word for it.

747
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: Then Mary and a few of her friends attend a

748
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 3: technicolor fashion show that lasts for again, like six minutes

749
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: on screen. It seems like it's just sort of like

750
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: a commercial wedged into the middle of the movie.

751
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, does any was anyone able to find in your

752
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: like research what the hell is going on there?

753
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 4: I actually did. I forgot to go out of my

754
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 4: way to figure out why that is there. In that way, I.

755
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 7: Didn't research it, but I think it's something we can

756
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 7: talk about that it is. I mean, it's if you

757
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 7: read it in a Freudian way, it's simp it's symptomatic, right,

758
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 7: like the fact that there is an explosion of technicolor

759
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 7: in the middle of this black and white movie that

760
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 7: is all about fashion, and that the fashion show is

761
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 7: a performance of the entire arc of the daily life

762
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 7: of a rich woman, starting with playing sports in the morning, tennis,

763
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 7: all the way through going to the zoo, so all

764
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 7: the way through going to a dinner party with a

765
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 7: gown and whatever. Like, there is something it is like

766
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 7: a Freudian slip like the movie.

767
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 6: Is telling on itself.

768
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 7: It's saying, like, this is actually the fantasy that is

769
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 7: at play in living this life, and the fantasy is

770
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 7: radically different than the reality. I mean, I think that's

771
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 7: part of the place where the movie is so smart

772
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 7: is that the movie is very aware of the fantasies

773
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 7: that women have to navigate, the forms of denial that

774
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 7: they have to live to navigate the sexual arrangements of

775
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 7: mid century American life. And I think that the technicolor

776
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 7: moment is also giving the audience the joy, the pure

777
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 7: unbridled joy of that fantasy before it says, u uh uh,

778
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 7: that's not what you're gonna get. That's not what this

779
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 7: whole movie is gonna be. Right, Like this whole movie

780
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 7: we could the whole movie could have been technicolor. That's

781
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 7: what The Wizard of Oz does.

782
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 4: It's incredible, Like I I know that.

783
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: I Mean, the most thing I was able to find

784
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: out is that George Kkor did not like that.

785
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 4: I think that that was sort of like something he

786
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 4: was forced to.

787
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 6: Do, got it by like the studios.

788
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, he felt it like it it disrupted the rhythm

789
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: of the movie, which I think is true, but also.

790
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 4: It definitely does.

791
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: However, I think in some ways, Kitlyn, let me know,

792
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: you think, like if you do, if you are kind

793
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: of exhausted by how fast this movie is, this is

794
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: kind it kind of functions as an intermission.

795
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 4: Of like, uh, all right, it's true, you know, get

796
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 4: catch your breath and buckle in because they're gonna be

797
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 4: talking even faster in the back half. Yeah, And I

798
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 4: don't know.

799
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: And also just because nineteen thirty nine there's so many

800
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: fun like overlaps here.

801
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 4: We're like Adrian Queer Icon who had like a.

802
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 10: Famous lavender marriage to Janet Gaynor, also designed the ruby

803
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 10: slippers and may like he was having a hell of

804
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 10: a year in nineteen thirty nine, just just a legend.

805
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 6: And that's incredible.

806
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 4: Did all the costume designs for the Wizard of Oz

807
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 4: as well. Okay, so yeah he was. He was really

808
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 4: cooking this year.

809
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: So I'm like, while I do find it a little weird,

810
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: I don't hate it only I mean it is kind

811
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: of an intermission.

812
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 4: I love the disembodied hand dress.

813
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 6: Oh my, so that's incredible.

814
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, I'm not mad.

815
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 6: That's modernism, honey.

816
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 4: It is just oh, it's so weird. I love it.

817
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's great.

818
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 7: I would just say as a side note, you know,

819
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 7: there's this extraordinary book by a dear friend of mine,

820
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 7: brilliant film scholar who should totally have on this podcast

821
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 7: named Matthew Tinkham. He actually wrote the British Film Institute.

822
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 6: Book on Greg Gardens.

823
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 7: Oh oh, and he wrote a book called Brokeback Mountain

824
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 7: and Queer Theory.

825
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 6: Incredible.

826
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 4: Should have covered and we haven't yet.

827
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 7: So oh my god, Greg, I have on for Greg Gardens. Honey,

828
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 7: he will blow your minds hell.

829
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 10: Yeah.

830
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 7: So he makes this amazing argument of that book where

831
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 7: he says Golden age Hollywood system, while it was intensely homophobic,

832
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 7: was obsessed with the cultural labor of gay men because

833
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 7: it believed like there was a there was an understanding,

834
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 7: a cultural understanding within the film industry in the nineteen

835
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 7: thirties and after that. Gay men had a distinct aesthetic

836
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 7: style that was extravagant, that was over the top, that

837
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 7: was flamboyant and beautiful, and that fit beautifully with the

838
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 7: desire of Warner Brothers in MGM to.

839
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 6: Do these extravagant musicals. And he shows you.

840
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 7: He has a chapter about how like he gets the

841
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 7: title of his book from an amazing interview of the

842
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 7: head assistant to oh why am I forgetting his same

843
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 7: He's like one of the most famous musical directors, Judy

844
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 7: Garland's first husband.

845
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 4: Is it Vincent Manelli?

846
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 7: Thank you, yes, thank you yes, that Vincent Manelli's head

847
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 7: assistant in the fifties and sixties was interviewed looking back, and.

848
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 6: She says to the interviewer, I don't know how else

849
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 6: to say it.

850
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 7: And I don't mean it at all as a dig

851
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 7: She's like he worked like a homosexual, Like he had.

852
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 6: A style, right.

853
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 7: And so the idea was that audiences when they viewed

854
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 7: those movies and they're incredible, over the top technicolor extravagance,

855
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 7: they didn't think gay. They thought that's entertainment, right, And

856
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 7: so he talks about how like gayness was was woven

857
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 7: into the fabric of the esthetic of the Hollywood musical

858
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 7: Star is Born, Wizard of Oz, all of these movies

859
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 7: of Singing in the Rain, but that it could be coded,

860
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 7: and that is very true here. I think the explosion

861
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 7: of technicolor here is also about the celebration of extravagant femininity,

862
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 7: that is pleasurable to gay audiences and also women.

863
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: I hear that, and this movie has all of that,

864
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: like oh yeah, and and the fact that I feel

865
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: like the most again like echoing what you were just saying,

866
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: like the most prominent voices and fingerprints you see on

867
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: this are women and queer people, Like, yeah, George ku

868
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: Koor was like you know, obviously not open to the public,

869
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: but like known to be openly gay and as well

870
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: as like I think probably maybe this is wrong, but

871
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: one of the if not the first director who was

872
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: known to be like women loved working with him. Yes,

873
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: And so part of what I mean we can get

874
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: into because there's some interesting like production narratives that come up.

875
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: But like for all of the like maybe true, maybe

876
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: not true narratives about how the stars of this movie

877
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: interacted throughout production, what no one ever disagrees on, and

878
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: I've never seen anyone say, is that George Kukre was

879
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: not like deeply respectful and reverent toward women actors, which

880
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: I think, particularly given the time, must have been such

881
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: a breath of fresh air. Almost any story you hear

882
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: about a director of like gaystrake whatever, like yeah, it

883
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: was okay to treat to quote movies like The Women,

884
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: to treat women like chattel and to treat them like

885
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: they were garbage, and that they were like, you know, meat.

886
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 4: Puppets to be to do what you were supposed to do.

887
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: And George Kukor was like collaborative and respectful and everyone

888
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: loved him.

889
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: It's so nice.

890
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 7: I mean, think about the fact that he is one

891
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 7: of the directors of The Wizard.

892
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 8: Of Oz.

893
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 4: All the CPS sequences, right, yeah, King.

894
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 7: Dar and he most of his greatest movies, Philadelphia Story,

895
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 7: A Star is Born with Judy Garland are female led,

896
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 7: like behemoths of film history.

897
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 4: We love George.

898
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: We love George, and in Adrian another very like queer

899
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: artist whose fingerprints are everywhere.

900
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 4: And then it's written by women and you're just I'm cheering.

901
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 4: I love it.

902
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: Also, George k Kerr directed Gaslight like he's just so

903
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: in the conversation he's awesome, amazing.

904
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: Sorry, contin well, I was gonna say. Apparently there are

905
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 3: two uncredited screenwriters of the movie, according to IMDb, at

906
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 3: least who are men, including f Scott Fitzgerald.

907
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 6: That makes a lot of.

908
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: Sense because of Anita Lowe's and I'm pretty sure Anita

909
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: or was it the other screenwriter?

910
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 4: Maybe I think it was Anita Lowe's let me double check.

911
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: Anita Lows worked with and on fitzgerald projects pretty thoroughly

912
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: throughout her career, so that that makes sense, given like

913
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: the time and the place.

914
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 4: I don't know, honestly. I mean, I've read The Great Gatsby.

915
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 4: I don't know that much about Scott Fitzgerald. I've never

916
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 4: fallen down that particular rabbit hole.

917
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 7: I mean, the main thing you need to know is

918
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 7: like one of the greatest kind of chroniclers of the

919
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 7: misery of the of the rich. I mean that's really

920
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 7: like right, Like he was incredible at being able to

921
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 7: capture both the allure, the aesthetic allure, the color, the lights,

922
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 7: the fashion, the parties.

923
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 6: Of an emergent nouveau reche.

924
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 7: Class in the nineteen twenties and the misery that that

925
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 7: culture produced. I mean, he is essentially writing about today,

926
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,959
Speaker 7: right He is writing.

927
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 4: About what Jesse Armstrong is doing right now.

928
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, decadence.

929
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so cool.

930
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: Wow.

931
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 4: Sorry, we just did a ten minute de reil ie

932
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 4: of where are we in the movie. It just started, oh,

933
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 4: a fashion sequest.

934
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 3: The fashion show, and then Afterward, the women ever heard

935
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 3: of them are deciding which dresses they want to buy,

936
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 3: and then Crystal Allen comes in and orders a bunch

937
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 3: of expensive dresses and it seems like Stephen will be

938
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 3: footing the bill and Mary is gutted by this. This

939
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 3: is her first time seeing Crystal face to face. The

940
00:46:54,239 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 3: drama loving Sylvia wants Mary to confront Crystal, which Mary

941
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 3: finally does, being like, hello, miss Allen, I believe you

942
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 3: know my husband, but you won't be knowing him any longer.

943
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 3: And Crystal is like, well, bitch, that's not for you

944
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 3: to decide. I can do whatever the hell I want.

945
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 4: Love her.

946
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 11: The next thing we know, it is also wearing like

947
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 11: this like gold lea May She's doing She's Whenever you

948
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,919
Speaker 11: see Mary and Crystal in this, you're just like, okay, yes,

949
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 11: these are these are very different, the women very different.

950
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 4: The women's I love it, Yes.

951
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, indeed. The next thing we know, Mary

952
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 3: has asked Stephen for a divorce. There's a scene where

953
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 3: Mary and Stephen have a big fight, but once again

954
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 3: it's off screen because we don't ever see men.

955
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 7: This is I want to just say real quick, this

956
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 7: is important. And again we should come back to this

957
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 7: the entire fight between her and like, because men are

958
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 7: not in the movie, Yeah, they have to come up

959
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 7: with all of these really smart and interesting narrative and

960
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 7: visual techniques to represent what's.

961
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 6: Happening with men without them in the picture.

962
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 7: And the way they do this is that the two

963
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 7: women who work in the house, the woman who runs

964
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 7: the kitchen in the apartment and the woman who's like

965
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 7: cleans the house, they are gossiping with each other, and

966
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 7: the younger one is narrating to the older one all

967
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 7: of the fight that she's hearing.

968
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 6: Yes, and so what you get is.

969
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 7: Working class people, people who work in the service side

970
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 7: of serving rich people, interpreting what they are hearing. They

971
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 7: not only repeat what they're hearing of the fight between

972
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 7: Mary and her husband, they also interpret it. And they're

973
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 7: also like thoughtfully judgmental of both of them. They're just like,

974
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 7: why is he talking like this? Why is she saying

975
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 7: that she should know better? He should know better? Like

976
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 7: there's a really canny knowingness among working class people that's

977
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 7: sort of like, we love these people, but also like

978
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 7: what an eye roll?

979
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 6: They know how to blow up their own lives, like

980
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 6: get grow up?

981
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: The older woman especially is providing some very colorful commentary

982
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 3: during those where the whole thing she's like, men ain't shit,

983
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 3: they're all liars, they cannot be trusted, they suck the

984
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: horrible I.

985
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 4: Mean, something I appreciate, and I do think there's shades

986
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 4: of this in real life. I think every woman over forty.

987
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: Five, that is the main narratives that they are presenting

988
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: us with, even if they're like and I do it

989
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: all again.

990
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 4: But like men more like love.

991
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 6: She loves love.

992
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: She loves love, you know so much that she is

993
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: fully I mean, and again there's a class privilege to

994
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 1: this that you can afford to have your life.

995
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 4: Blown up time and she'll get five divorces. But yeah,

996
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 4: so you could afford to keep getting back on that train.

997
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: But there is a really cool element of that where yeah,

998
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: every woman who is like not in their thirties or

999
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: younger basically are like, yeah, men are.

1000
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 4: Awful, and you choose to engage with them or you don't.

1001
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 4: And I don't know, there is a timelessness to that message.

1002
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just thought that was like such a

1003
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: smart writing choice where I think that there is an

1004
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: argument for like, I wish that we outside of Crystal,

1005
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: and even that, I feel like there's something left to

1006
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: be desired.

1007
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 4: But outside of Crystal, the working class girls, we really.

1008
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: Don't get to know what their inner lives are, but

1009
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: we mainly get insight into we know their perspective exactly exactly,

1010
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, one movie can't do everything,

1011
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know, I just again it feels

1012
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: like peanuts. But like even having their perspectives considered and

1013
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: included is so unusual, especially in a way that doesn't

1014
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: feel you know, trauma, poorn or like condescending in a

1015
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: way that I think that, like, you know, working class

1016
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: people are so frequently treated in movies.

1017
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So Mary starts divorce proceedings and she tells

1018
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 3: her daughter that she and her father are splitting up,

1019
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 3: and little Mary is very sad, she's crying. Then Mary

1020
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 3: heads to Reno, Nevada. Because at this time, and we

1021
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 3: alluded to this already a little bit. We can talk

1022
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,959
Speaker 3: more about it later, but at this time in the US,

1023
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 3: getting a divorce was very difficult in most states and

1024
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 3: most areas in general, except for in Reno, there were

1025
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 3: certain laws that just made it very easy if you

1026
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 3: basically moved there for a few weeks, set up residency.

1027
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 3: You could basically get a divorce, no questions asked. So

1028
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: that's what a lot of people, and especially I think

1029
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 3: a lot of women did during this time. So Mary

1030
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 3: heads there on the train to Reno. She meets several

1031
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 3: other women who are in the middle of a divorce,

1032
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 3: some of whom are despondent about that, including her friend Peggy,

1033
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 3: but a couple of the women seem to be thrilled

1034
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 3: about getting a divorce, including an older woman named the Count.

1035
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 4: Just a love I love.

1036
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 3: Her, I love her who at this point has been

1037
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 3: married and divorced four times. She's like, in the middle

1038
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 3: of her fourth divorce.

1039
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: Who among us doesn't have an aunt that is somewhat

1040
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: like this, ye, Lamore, lamour.

1041
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 6: It's two of them tried to murder her. Just oh

1042
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 6: my god.

1043
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: And again it's like, okay, we could we can academic

1044
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: afy that to death.

1045
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 4: But just the.

1046
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 1: The casualness that she presents it with, yeah, I feel

1047
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: like is actually really powerful. Where it's like, oh, of

1048
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: course women can be expected to have attempts on their

1049
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: wife done casual and YadA, YadA whatever.

1050
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 4: I get back on the train, and uh no harm,

1051
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 4: no bowel. That was like I love the energy, love

1052
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 4: the energy.

1053
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 8: Yep.

1054
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 3: So there's her, and then there's a younger woman named

1055
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 3: Miriam played by Paulette Goddard with her is getting her

1056
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 3: first divorce.

1057
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 4: With a with a with a Bob of the century.

1058
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,919
Speaker 3: Her bangs start all the way back at the back

1059
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 3: of her head.

1060
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 4: Her bangs start like on her butt. It's like her

1061
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 4: bang is It's so there are so many really interesting

1062
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 4: characters introduced very deep into the movie.

1063
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, And so Mary starts kind of piling

1064
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: around with these two women who perhaps are helping to

1065
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,479
Speaker 3: give her a new perspective on divorce that maybe it's

1066
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 3: not so bad. We cut to Reno. Mary has been

1067
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 3: there for six weeks and her divorce is almost final.

1068
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: Because I think you have to like establish residency, like

1069
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: there's a whole you basically have to agree to go

1070
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: to like divorce summer camp, which again the movie does

1071
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: manage to make look pretty fun for most people.

1072
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would like to see a movie made

1073
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 3: now but set in whatever thirties, forties, fifties agree about,

1074
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 3: like Reno Divorce Summer Camp. I think that would be

1075
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 3: about load of fun. Yeah, but so you know Mary,

1076
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 3: the divorce is almost final, and she seems content about

1077
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 3: her choices and her life. For the most part, Sylvia

1078
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 3: shows up. She's also getting divorced.

1079
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 6: Because come up, then has happened?

1080
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, her husband has been having an affair with

1081
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 3: It turns out that Mariam, woman we just met.

1082
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 4: I did appreciate it. This was the first time I

1083
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 4: really like clocked this. But how because I really do

1084
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 4: love Barry. I hate that she goes back to that.

1085
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: Loser, but I love I have a lot of love

1086
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 1: for Mary, and I really appreciated that she was able

1087
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: to when when Sylvia showed up at divorce camp, be

1088
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: like welcome instead of being like you fucking sat, which

1089
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 1: would have been well deserved for Sylvia.

1090
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 4: I think she's just like, welcome, the water's fine here.

1091
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: Like I just was like, Wow, she's really good at

1092
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: being the bigger person.

1093
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 4: She just shouldn't have gone back to that.

1094
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: Those are but nineteen thirty nine, we have to reinforce

1095
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: hays Code.

1096
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 4: Hayes Code.

1097
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: Indeed, indeed, yes, so, so Sylvia pretty quickly finds out

1098
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 3: that this Miriam Will who her husband was having an

1099
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 3: affair with or currently is is right there. So they

1100
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 3: get in a physical fight. They're pulling each other's hair,

1101
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 3: they're whipping each other's clothes. Sylvia bites Mariam et cetera.

1102
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 4: Yes, and and and look, it is what it sounds like. Listen,

1103
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 4: it is what it sounds like. I did appreciate.

1104
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: Again, we get so defensive of every choice in this

1105
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: movie for no reason that at least we get to

1106
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: see the other women enjoying the fight.

1107
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,879
Speaker 12: We get to see them be like, let them Yes,

1108
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 12: happens all the time, don't worry about it.

1109
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 4: Let's like get a drink, let's see what happens. I

1110
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 4: was fun.

1111
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 3: There's a woman who I left out of the recap.

1112
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 3: I believe her name is Lucy. She's sort of like

1113
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 3: I don't know if she's like a cook at this

1114
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 3: summer camp.

1115
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: Or seems to be like I guess I viewed her

1116
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: as sort of like this is a poor comparison, but

1117
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: like the house mother of like divorce Cass seems like it.

1118
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, she I mean I thought she again a very.

1119
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: A very stareeotyped character that the actor made their own

1120
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: in a way that I got. And again, the details

1121
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: we learn are like and it's it's partially just like

1122
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: the very frank kind of cynical view that this movie

1123
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: has for the first two thirds.

1124
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 4: But like we we do learn a lot about this character.

1125
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 1: Who we are introduced to as I believe a donkey,

1126
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: which is like, yeah, I am assuming a man's.

1127
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 3: Fault, okay, shrek vibes.

1128
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 4: Oh okay, we're reclaiming donky.

1129
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 3: So that's actually a huge compliment to become of the context.

1130
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: Of so a very shreky in choice but intended as insulting.

1131
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: But we do learn that, like, you know, she as

1132
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: another working class character who is presented.

1133
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 4: In a heavily stereotype way.

1134
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: However, we do learn that like she you know, has

1135
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: a very i mean, speaking to your point, Ramsey, like

1136
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: a very specific perspective on where she is and what

1137
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: she's doing and how it connects to her own life.

1138
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: We learn that she is the victim of tremendous domestic

1139
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: abuse and has internalized it and to accept it. And like,

1140
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: that is a lot to learn about a character who

1141
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: is intended as comedic relief.

1142
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 4: But I don't think that again, it's just like I

1143
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 4: don't know if it's like the George Q. Koor of

1144
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 4: it all if it's the writing, if it's a performance.

1145
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 4: But I feel like as well as this.

1146
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: Movie can handle it, It's clear that she is intended

1147
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: as comedic relief.

1148
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 4: But the comedic relief is not that she's abused, true, which.

1149
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: Is a difficult needle to thread. And I think, you know,

1150
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: could could it have been more sensitive? Sure, but like

1151
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: in the context of a big, you know, talkie comedy,

1152
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 1: I think it does pretty well.

1153
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. So Okay, So Sylvia and Miriam have

1154
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 3: had this big cat fight and Sylvia is pissed at

1155
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 3: Mary for not defending her and kind of taking Miriam's side,

1156
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: so they have a falling out about it. Then it

1157
00:57:54,040 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 3: seems Mary's perspective maybe starts to change back too, Well,

1158
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 3: maybe I shouldn't get divorced, maybe my marriage can work.

1159
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 3: After a couple things happen. One is that she sees

1160
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 3: her friend Peggy, who has just found out that she's gregnant,

1161
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 3: and Peggy tells her like soon to be ex husband,

1162
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 3: that she's expecting a baby, and he decides, oh, we

1163
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 3: shouldn't get divorced, let's get back together, so they reconcile

1164
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 3: in their marriage is quote unquote saved. So Mary sees that,

1165
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 3: and then she also has a conversation with Miriam, who

1166
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: tells her about the importance of a woman's role in

1167
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 3: a marriage, such as being a caretaker in all capacities,

1168
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 3: being a mother and a nurse maid and all these

1169
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 3: things like very traditional prescriptive gender role stuff by our

1170
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 3: modern standards, of course. Ye, but Mary takes this to

1171
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 3: heart also, like Mariam is like, you're a coward for

1172
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 3: not fighting for your man. You should have tried harder

1173
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 3: to stay with Stephen.

1174
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 7: I actually love this conversation. We're going to come back

1175
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 7: because I don't want to. I don't I want You're

1176
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 7: almost at the end, yes, but we're going to come back.

1177
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 7: I actually love that conversation. I think it's so smart.

1178
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm interested.

1179
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 6: It's the one that you have a hard time like recuperating.

1180
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, it is like so much so. And

1181
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: it's like I think that it's because this conversation happens

1182
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: when the movie is actively losing me God that I'm like,

1183
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: I don't know how to feel about that, and then

1184
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: the movie moves so quickly through the end, yet I

1185
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: feel like I've never really fully understood how to feel

1186
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: about it.

1187
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, we'll talk about it.

1188
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 3: So Mary is like, hmm, maybe she's right, Maybe I

1189
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 3: do need to go back to being a wife and

1190
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 3: a caretaker to my husband. Then Mary receives a call

1191
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 3: from Stephen, and she's coming in with this renewed sense

1192
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 3: of love and hope, and it seems like she's willing

1193
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 3: to call the divorce off until she learns that the

1194
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,919
Speaker 3: reason Stephen is calling is to tell her that he

1195
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 3: married Crystal Allan earlier that day. So Mary is devastated

1196
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 3: all over again.

1197
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 4: Night before. Why why aggressive?

1198
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 3: Like, literally the moment she gets divorced, he goes out

1199
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 3: and gets married to someone else.

1200
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 7: Time to die, Time to just life in prison without

1201
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 7: the possibility.

1202
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 4: Of work, anti KURSRL, except for.

1203
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 3: Step except for Stephen. Okay, we cut to Crystal. It's

1204
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 3: I believe, like a year and a half later. She's

1205
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 3: in the bathtub and she she's horrible, she's entitled, she's cruel,

1206
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 3: and she is cheating on Stephen with another man. And

1207
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 3: she and Little Mary have a chat because she's now

1208
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 3: little Mary's stepmother, and Little Mary is like, oh, you

1209
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 3: think I don't like you, Well, you're right, I hate you,

1210
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 3: but I never said it, but I never said it

1211
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 3: because I'm polite.

1212
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 6: Polite, I'm proper.

1213
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 7: I didn't say it to your face, but you made

1214
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 7: me say it to me because now you said that

1215
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 7: I don't like you when you're right.

1216
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 3: And you're right. Then Sylvia comes in because she and

1217
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 3: Crystal are friends now, and Sylvia learns that Crystal's new

1218
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 3: lover is a man named buck Winston, who is the

1219
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 3: current husband of the Countess de lave No, Mary's friend

1220
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 3: who she met on the train to Reno.

1221
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: Who has who has basically fab we later learned fabricated

1222
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: the career to make her loser, cheating husband feel better.

1223
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: And you're just like ooh ooh, okay, anti cars rule,

1224
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: but maybe not for buck Winston.

1225
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 6: Maybe yeah, abolition but not for him.

1226
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 4: Maybe jail for him, Yes, yes, yes.

1227
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 3: Then Mary has a conversation with her daughter where Little

1228
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 3: Mary reveals that Stephen is miserable in his relationship with

1229
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 3: Crystal and that Crystal is clearly having an affair with

1230
01:01:56,120 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 3: someone else, which once again gives Mary a renewed sense

1231
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 3: of hope. She's ecstatic, thinking that she can possibly win

1232
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 3: Stephen back, so she rushes off to a restaurant where

1233
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 3: she knows that Sylvia and Crystal and Stephen are going

1234
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 3: to be Yes, there's this convoluted thing that I was

1235
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 3: having a hard time following, But basically she gets Sylvia

1236
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 3: to admit that Cristal is having an affair with Buck

1237
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 3: Winston in front of and I don't know if this

1238
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 3: person is a gossip columnist or someone.

1239
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 4: Who just okay the gossip columnists.

1240
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 3: I was like, maybe she just like spreads gossip for fun.

1241
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 3: But rather than writing about it, this gossip columnist just

1242
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 3: runs into the room and loudly announces to everyone about

1243
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 3: this affair.

1244
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 4: That's how that job works, right, it does Macana.

1245
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 6: I mean, I think you can call it that it.

1246
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 4: Is gossip x Macana.

1247
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure.

1248
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 3: So now Stephen knows that his new wife Cristal is

1249
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 3: cheating on him, and so he wants to reconcile with Mary,

1250
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 3: so she runs back to him, and then the movie

1251
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 3: ends with the implication that Mary and Stephen will get

1252
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 3: back together the end.

1253
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 7: I think it's important to remember also that the final

1254
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 7: shot is Mary putting her hands out super melodramatically crying

1255
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 7: but with joy rushing towards Stephen, and we are the

1256
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 7: first time that we get that close to the subjectivity

1257
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 7: of a man. We are this is like male gaze

1258
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 7: one oh one, right. We are in the position as

1259
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 7: the audience of Stephen, So while we never see him,

1260
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 7: we inhabit him figuratively as she's rushing towards us, which

1261
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 7: one could use to argue either way that it's a

1262
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 7: deeply sexist ending or that it's actually kind of an

1263
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 7: amazing ending. We're really the romance stories between the audience

1264
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 7: and Norma Shearer and not Stephen.

1265
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 1: Sure, okay, And then before we kick to break, it's

1266
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: like it's worth mentioning that that gossip columnist is played

1267
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: by the gossip calumnists of.

1268
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 4: The day had a hopper who comes up.

1269
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 6: Wow, I didn't know that.

1270
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really a really fun cameo in the movie.

1271
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 3: Okay, and with that, yes, let's take a quick break

1272
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 3: and we'll be back to discuss. And we're back.

1273
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, where the hell to start?

1274
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 7: Can I before we start with specifics, can I do

1275
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 7: like a like a I don't know, this isn't exactly

1276
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 7: a read, but I want to like lay out.

1277
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 6: The case, please please please?

1278
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 7: Okay, So I want to start by saying, like to

1279
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 7: anyone's current eyes if you were to watch this movie today,

1280
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 7: on its face, it is so obviously sexist as to

1281
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 7: be like not even a question. And let's lay out

1282
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 7: what those are. The comparison at the beginning of women

1283
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 7: to animals coming in hut, The idea that women seem

1284
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 7: to live in a universe where all they do is

1285
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 7: talk about men and their relationships with men, their entire

1286
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 7: life orbits of the desire of men, the money of men, etc.

1287
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 7: The perception that women are against each other, that they

1288
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 7: turn on each other.

1289
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 6: That they are caddy.

1290
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 7: It begins with another animal allegory where these two rich

1291
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 7: women are walking into a salon and their dogs are fighting,

1292
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 7: and the dogs fighting are symbolic of women fighting with

1293
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 7: each other.

1294
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 8: Right.

1295
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 7: There is a continual blame the victim story in which

1296
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 7: women are made to feel that it's their fault that

1297
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 7: men cheat on them, that they aren't understanding enough. And

1298
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 7: of course the ending, which is a reconciliation with a

1299
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 7: cheating husband that would appear to tell you.

1300
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 6: Like this is so sexist. However, what I want to

1301
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 6: say is that those elements are the.

1302
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 7: Movies payoff to Hollywood to be able to do something

1303
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 7: feminist like the ending is the way in which Hollywood

1304
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 7: gets its way so that women can take center stage.

1305
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 7: And if you think about it, the structure of that

1306
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 7: is completely undermined by the formal logic of the movie.

1307
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 7: So if the plot appears to be really sexist, everything

1308
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 7: about the form is not.

1309
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 6: It is a movie that is only about women.

1310
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 7: Women are the center of the screen, and they are

1311
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,919
Speaker 7: presented in a way that both allows for the male

1312
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 7: gaze but is really about the gaze.

1313
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 6: And their gaze on women. Right.

1314
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 7: So like, while we do see women in this pleasurable,

1315
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 7: fetishized way, it's usually to celebrate fashion, and it's usually

1316
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 7: to celebrate the pleasure of a woman's form.

1317
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 6: So number one, there's that. Number two, it.

1318
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 7: Is a movie that is ballistic dialogue between women. It

1319
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 7: caused every single sequence is like a seven minute extended

1320
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 7: moment in which women are talking to each other constantly,

1321
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 7: and even if patch the Bechdel test they are always

1322
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 7: talking about men, what they're really talking about is what

1323
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 7: the feminist psychoanalyst Dorothy.

1324
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 6: Dinnersteine would call sexual arrangement.

1325
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 7: The movie continually presents different competing theories of what gender is,

1326
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 7: so like in every moment, there is a woman in

1327
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 7: every different class saying well, I think gender is this.

1328
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 7: I think gender is this. The mom is like, gender

1329
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 7: is compromise, right, like other people are like, actually, gender

1330
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 7: should be about liberation.

1331
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 6: Actually it should be about this. There are competing visions of.

1332
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 7: What gender is, and the fact that a movie in

1333
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 7: nineteen thirty nine is presenting a bunch of women talking

1334
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 7: about competing models of gender. The reason it seems sexist

1335
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 7: to us today is because one of the models that

1336
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 7: is not acceptable in the moment is simply the idea

1337
01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 7: that women could exist without men. But the economic structure

1338
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 7: of American society does not even make that viable, because

1339
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 7: to be without a man is to essentially be working class,

1340
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 7: and rather thence make that invisible.

1341
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 6: We see it all over the movie.

1342
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:15,439
Speaker 7: We see many single women who are working class, who

1343
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 7: are like, the only way I can work within the

1344
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 7: system is to try to steal a rich woman's husband.

1345
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 7: Those women are very aware that the arrangements of gender

1346
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 7: are always temporary, and so part of what is so

1347
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 7: feminist about the movie is that because the women talk

1348
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 7: so openly and honestly about different models of gender, they

1349
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 7: always acknowledge that gender is sort of miserable that gendered

1350
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,679
Speaker 7: arrangements between men and women provide temporary security. The Countess

1351
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 7: de lav will have this amazing moment at the end

1352
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 7: where she's like, she seems like she's happily married for

1353
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 7: a fifth time, and she looks at all the women

1354
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 7: and she says, isn't it so lovely that we're all

1355
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 7: settled for now at least, right? And she is so

1356
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 7: aware they're all aware that it's all bullshit, that the

1357
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 7: entire system is temporary, it's contingent, it's always being overthrown,

1358
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 7: and the working class women know what the best Because

1359
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 7: when Crystal Allen, while she fights so hard to get

1360
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 7: her quote unquote meal ticket by marrying this guy, when

1361
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,759
Speaker 7: she ruins it all and it blows up in her face,

1362
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 7: how quick she is to say, h, I guess I'll

1363
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,760
Speaker 7: work at the counter again. She knows that all of

1364
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 7: these arrangements are temporary, and so at the end of

1365
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 7: the day, the movie is so unbelievably realistic about how

1366
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 7: the fantasy at the end of getting back with your

1367
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 7: husband or whatever is just that it's a fantasy and

1368
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,720
Speaker 7: it's temporary, and so I think part of its genius

1369
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 7: is that it's honest about the fantasy.

1370
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 6: And the last thing I will say for the moment,

1371
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 6: for the.

1372
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 7: Case is that it is one of the rare texts

1373
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 7: that we could say that this is really patriarchal, but

1374
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 7: that acknowledges that men are part of that arrangement and

1375
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 7: that men are also miserable with it, right that, Like,

1376
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 7: that's why I love that conversation with Mary, because Marianne

1377
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 7: is not totally wrong. She's like, Mary, what do you

1378
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 7: think your husband was gonna do? He's now been publicly

1379
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 7: embarrassed by his infidelity. He has to make the infidelity legitimate.

1380
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 7: So he's gonna do the silliest thing ever, which is

1381
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 7: what men always do. He's gonna get married to this woman.

1382
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 7: He doesn't even love to make it look legitimate. Yeah,

1383
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:23,440
Speaker 7: And she's saying, like, you created the conditions.

1384
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 6: You were also part of the game.

1385
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 7: And I think what's important is we live in a

1386
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 7: moment today where we think that feminism means women are

1387
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 7: always right, they are always injured by men, as opposed

1388
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 7: to like a radical feminist view in the seventies is like,

1389
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 7: women are injured by men, but women also participate in

1390
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 7: injuring men and in creating the conditions where they are

1391
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 7: injured by men.

1392
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: Well, I think that that is still a facet of

1393
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: modern feminism as well.

1394
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 4: It's like holding other women to account.

1395
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 6: Oh for sure.

1396
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:56,440
Speaker 7: I don't think it's the popular discourse of feminism.

1397
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 4: I guess I disagree.

1398
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 6: Oh okay, yeah, yeah.

1399
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 7: I think my experience has been that men are basically

1400
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 7: like their view of feminism today is like everything we

1401
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 7: do is wrong.

1402
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, but men are always wrong, so that I actually.

1403
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 6: Can go along with that. I think it's also fair

1404
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:13,839
Speaker 6: to say that women are also wrong sometimes.

1405
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 4: No, but that's what I'm saying, is like that women.

1406
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 1: I do think there is a lot of vital discussion

1407
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: among women in modern feminism, holding each other to account

1408
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:25,800
Speaker 1: and figure it out. I don't think that there is

1409
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: like a through line of like, yeah, oh, we all

1410
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 1: agree with each other and we have only.

1411
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 4: Been injured by men, and men cannot possibly be our allies.

1412
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:35,640
Speaker 7: No, you're totally right, I think. Tell me if you

1413
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 7: agree with this. I don't think that nuance has been

1414
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 7: translating to the mass public.

1415
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 4: I definitely don't think it's translated to the internet.

1416
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, yeah, for sure.

1417
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 7: I mean when I teach young men, even really progressive men.

1418
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 7: They have not received the message that there is a

1419
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 7: nuanced conversation going on within contemporary feminism that includes any

1420
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 7: of their interests or the idea that they might also

1421
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 7: be injured and that they might all like, I don't

1422
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 7: think they perceive that.

1423
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: I agree, but I guess I like a lot of

1424
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 1: my read of why that is is not necessarily primarily

1425
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 1: because of how feminists are talking to or about men.

1426
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 1: It has to do with how feminism is presented to

1427
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: them by other men, and like, I feel so much

1428
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: of that, so much like the I don't know, I've

1429
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: done like a fair amount of like research and repretting

1430
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 1: on the manisphere and how the.

1431
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:31,600
Speaker 4: Ideas of feminism are twisted to seem completely exclusionary to

1432
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 4: men and then.

1433
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,200
Speaker 1: Having it sold back to like don't even try, yeah,

1434
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 1: to talk to women because they hate you.

1435
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:38,600
Speaker 4: And I don't think that's true.

1436
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 6: Totally Yeah, No, I think that's totally fair.

1437
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:44,759
Speaker 7: But I like that the movie it never really deeply

1438
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 7: investigates this, but it suggests that men and women are

1439
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 7: participating mutually in a quite miserable and unhappy sexual arrangement. Yes,

1440
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 7: that should be changed, but the movie doesn't exactly know

1441
01:12:58,800 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 7: how to change it.

1442
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 6: It does have the conversation totally.

1443
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:02,719
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1444
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:08,680
Speaker 3: I would also add that, like monogamy, culture contributes to

1445
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 3: a lot of this, and like, yeah, for some people,

1446
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 3: monogamy is very restrictive. And it appears to me that

1447
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 3: a lot of the characters in this movie, men and

1448
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 3: women alike, are non monogamous. They're not practicing it ethically,

1449
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 3: but they seem interested in having multiple partners at the

1450
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,839
Speaker 3: same time, because almost everyone in this movie is cheating

1451
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 3: on their spouse. But the expectation at the time was

1452
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 3: that everyone present to society as though they are monogamous.

1453
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 3: But if these characters were more open to like I

1454
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:50,560
Speaker 3: don't know, like using older terminology, but like being swingers,

1455
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 3: like some.

1456
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,560
Speaker 4: Of them kind of like soft are anyway.

1457
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 6: Oh god, right, yeah, well that's also it's so sexual.

1458
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 7: There's so much sex happening without it being erotic movie

1459
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 7: at all. And he does seem like everybody's cheating on everybody,

1460
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 7: and it's kind of commonly known that that happens, and

1461
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 7: divorce has happened now, right right.

1462
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:08,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.

1463
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 1: I mean I think going off of that was like

1464
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 1: thank you for articularly in that this is so good.

1465
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 6: So I just wanted to lay out the larger Yeah.

1466
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I feel like, for me, this movie

1467
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 1: is presenting a lot of stereotypes of the time that

1468
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 1: are I mean, it is really bizarre watching this like

1469
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 1: eighty seven year old movie and seeing like, oh.

1470
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 4: A lot of this is making a really intense comeback.

1471
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 1: Right now, including the values of marriage and what does

1472
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 1: it mean and all this stuff. Yeah, but what I

1473
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 1: think like saves this movie from becoming impossibly dated is

1474
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: you're right, like women writers and women lend productions at

1475
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 1: this time had to play ball yeah to be released.

1476
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 4: And while I do think.

1477
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,560
Speaker 1: A lot of stereotypes and stereotypical misogyny are presented, almost

1478
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: all of it is common upon yes, and like the

1479
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: characters are frustrated by it, even if they are playing

1480
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 1: into it.

1481
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,960
Speaker 4: That's part of why I find I think Sylvia is

1482
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 4: my favorite character.

1483
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I really appreciate her from a number of levels,

1484
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: but also like she just seems to me someone who

1485
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:21,639
Speaker 1: I think.

1486
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 4: Maybe on the page, is like internalize a lot of

1487
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 4: misogyny and.

1488
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 1: Is projecting it back, and it's like presented almost as

1489
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 1: like she's doing it for fun.

1490
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 4: I think you can really find someone like who's very wounded.

1491
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 1: In her because she's never the way she talks about

1492
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:38,560
Speaker 1: her husband, who eventually.

1493
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 4: Leaves her for another woman, she's very dismissive of him.

1494
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 4: She's like, I don't care fuck that guy, blah blah blah.

1495
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 6: She's also like, I gave you my youth.

1496
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: It's not resentful, but it's I think that a lot

1497
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: of the ways, really, with the exception of Mary, the

1498
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: ways that the women in this story talk about men,

1499
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 1: it's not about them, it's about how it's about survival

1500
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,759
Speaker 1: in an environment that is not designed for their independent survival.

1501
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:04,719
Speaker 4: So it's like about survival and it's.

1502
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,599
Speaker 1: About how they're perceived by the women around them, which

1503
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: is part of why I kind of feel for Sylvia.

1504
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 1: Where she's not trying to get a man, she's not

1505
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:16,640
Speaker 1: trying to keep a man. She is hyper fixated on

1506
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 1: what the women around her are doing and trying to

1507
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 1: like win their favor or not. Where like how she

1508
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,600
Speaker 1: like gloms on to Crystal after her falling out with

1509
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 1: Mary feels so telling where it's just like, yes, it's

1510
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 1: their approval that matters. It's not her fucking loser husband,

1511
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 1: but the losing her husband affects how women see her,

1512
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 1: and losing her husband affects her ability to survive. And

1513
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 1: it's just like, I don't know, Yeah, there's like so

1514
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 1: much interesting stuff going on.

1515
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 4: That I feel like it's like, oh, let me know,

1516
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 4: how do you feel about this?

1517
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: But I think that like Mary is the only person

1518
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 1: in this movie who seems to.

1519
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 4: Genuinely have affection for her spouse, and the.

1520
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 1: Rest is like it's survived because like you're saying, like,

1521
01:16:57,640 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: how old are you going to survive at this time

1522
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 1: particular before I mean, and again, this is a very

1523
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 1: white conversation.

1524
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 13: Yeah, because white women were actively encouraged to not work,

1525
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 13: and it was the shape like and and that was

1526
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 13: not the case for any other racial demographic at the

1527
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 13: time that are completely ignored by this story, partially because

1528
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:19,919
Speaker 13: of the Hayes.

1529
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:23,799
Speaker 1: Code, but also if you keep scrolling on Claire Looses,

1530
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 1: I mean, I wanted to say, like, she's an incredible figure,

1531
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 1: but she gets pretty conservative later in her life. She

1532
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:33,760
Speaker 1: was elected to office, she served at the House of Representatives,

1533
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 1: like started pro Roosevelt, then later turns on him.

1534
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 7: Interesting, also groundbreaking. I mean, that's a pretty cliche. That's

1535
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 7: a pretty cliche arc right, Yeah, for a lot of people,

1536
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 7: for a lot of people in the culture industry.

1537
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 4: It's very exactly. Yeah. I was like, and we can whatever,

1538
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 4: how many people can we think of now? I mean

1539
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,560
Speaker 4: we can start with jk. Rowling, the the like successful

1540
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:01,440
Speaker 4: woman writer, tough for people person pipeline.

1541
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 6: I know what is going on, so.

1542
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 4: Not to like endorse all of her views because she

1543
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 4: to this day there is like I'm seeing like.

1544
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 1: A loose like conservative women's club that exists to this day,

1545
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:16,440
Speaker 1: which is pretty diabolical.

1546
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 4: But anyways, getting back to.

1547
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,440
Speaker 1: I feel like this this movie, even though the tagline

1548
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 1: is it's all about men, I don't think that's true.

1549
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 4: I think it is about how women.

1550
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: Perceive each other. Yeah, at this time, and I wish

1551
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 1: that they that we got to see more of it.

1552
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 1: I wish that we got to you know, like it

1553
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:38,400
Speaker 1: would be. I think there is room in this movie

1554
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 1: to have a better understanding of the working class women's

1555
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 1: lives outside of how they perceive the upper class.

1556
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 4: There's sure there's room for a lot of different things.

1557
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:50,839
Speaker 4: But I don't know. Yeah, I guess if.

1558
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 1: You go with this movie's marketing, it's all about men,

1559
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:54,919
Speaker 1: but it's just like it is it just it clearly

1560
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: isn't It's about a lot of frustrated women trying to

1561
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:02,559
Speaker 1: figure out how they're going to survive in a political

1562
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 1: climate that is designed to leave them reliant on men.

1563
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 3: Yes, and well, speaking to both the stereotypes present in

1564
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 3: this movie and the rampant whiteness, and to your point, Ramsey,

1565
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 3: like one of the reasons that this movie, again looking

1566
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 3: at it through our modern twenty twenty six lens, the

1567
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:29,759
Speaker 3: way the women are presented and their interests and their behavior,

1568
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,600
Speaker 3: so much of it is again very catty, very gossipy.

1569
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 3: Women are superficial, They're obsessed with their appearance and their

1570
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:42,679
Speaker 3: beauty regimens, like all these very stereotypical things. But also

1571
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 3: we have to remember that most of the characters in

1572
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 3: this movie are affluent white women who are classist and

1573
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 3: racist and fatshlobic and a number of other things. And

1574
01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:00,680
Speaker 3: the thing like, affluent white women usually are caddy and

1575
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 3: superficial and cruel and harbor a lot of prejudices toward

1576
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 3: marginalized people. And I know that, like there are you know,

1577
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:10,320
Speaker 3: you can read deeper into that, and you know there

1578
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 3: is a discussion about, like, well, the context behind why

1579
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 3: these women are so caddy is because there is a

1580
01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 3: survival component and because there are so many constraints to

1581
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 3: how they are able to survive, so they have to

1582
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 3: sort of game the system or play the game or whatever.

1583
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, that I think the.

1584
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,480
Speaker 3: Movie, you know, a lot of it is like contextual

1585
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 3: and implicit. There aren't that many explicit conversations about that.

1586
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 3: And you know, again, it's nineteen thirty nine, it's whatever.

1587
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:41,639
Speaker 3: But I kind of came away from it being like, yeah,

1588
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 3: we do see a lot of stereotypes about women, but

1589
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 3: it's a bunch of rich white women and.

1590
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:50,800
Speaker 4: It feels pretty true, like how, yeah, like how women

1591
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 4: in this position would have behaved.

1592
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:57,599
Speaker 1: I don't know, because I do think like there are moments. Yeah,

1593
01:20:57,640 --> 01:20:58,759
Speaker 1: I'm curious about you.

1594
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,599
Speaker 4: You think Gramsey of like, I think you have one

1595
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:06,639
Speaker 4: specific class moment in the movie that I don't remember.

1596
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 4: I think it's Edith. There's one hundred and forty women

1597
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 4: in the movie. I'm pretty sure it's Edith.

1598
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 1: It's after what I think, because I like, I love

1599
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,160
Speaker 1: Roslin russell performances and her physical.

1600
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,400
Speaker 4: Comedy is just like she's following a crash. She's like

1601
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,800
Speaker 4: the Hillary Duff of her time she is pratt falling, yeah,

1602
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:28,640
Speaker 4: and that I have always loved that, like weird Pilates scene, or.

1603
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:33,000
Speaker 1: She's like whipping her legs around and delivering forty pages.

1604
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:34,560
Speaker 4: Of dialogue like it's unreal.

1605
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 6: Well, and that's okay.

1606
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 7: So this if I if I'm if my premonition is correct,

1607
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 7: you're gonna tak That's an amazing moment. Yes, where she

1608
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 7: has paid along with her friend Peggy. She has paid

1609
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:49,160
Speaker 7: for them to have a class, an exercise class that

1610
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:53,439
Speaker 7: is calisthenics, and she wastes it by gossiping the whole

1611
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:55,240
Speaker 7: time and then kind of cutting it short. And the

1612
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 7: woman who's leading the class is like, are.

1613
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 6: You sure you want me to leave?

1614
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 7: And she's like, yeah, I do. And finally the woman

1615
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:02,719
Speaker 7: is like, this is such a waste of money.

1616
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, she says like shut the hell up. But she says,

1617
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:08,439
Speaker 4: if you could just relax your muscles from the chin up,

1618
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 4: and you're like, oh, okay, right.

1619
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 7: But I do think that it is a moment in

1620
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 7: which a certain kind of wealth in the United States,

1621
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 7: like returning to Gilded Age moment. There are women who

1622
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 7: are watching this wealth being wasted and saying like oh

1623
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 7: my God, like your emotional and sexual profligacy, like the

1624
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:29,879
Speaker 7: fact that you guys are all miserable in your marriages

1625
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:33,040
Speaker 7: and it's all sort of a sham. Is redoubled in

1626
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 7: the fact that you guys waste so much money, like

1627
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 7: in the service industry, and that is like shocking to people.

1628
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 7: But I want to also comment on types and stereotypes, right, Like,

1629
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 7: stereotypes are not all the same in the sense that

1630
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 7: some are more pernicious than others. We can say that

1631
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 7: stereotyping in all forms is pernicious, but the reality is

1632
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,679
Speaker 7: that human beings in habit types, and not because we're

1633
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:00,720
Speaker 7: innately or essentially so, but because Like the problem with stereotypes,

1634
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 7: right is that they say, well, this group of people

1635
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 7: is essentially like this, all black people are like this,

1636
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 7: or all queer people are like this. If you have

1637
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 7: a different view of typology that says types are socially

1638
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,639
Speaker 7: constructed and we see them modeled for us the way

1639
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 7: gender is. Right, Like, the flamboyant gay man is a type,

1640
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:21,719
Speaker 7: and I have inhabited that type.

1641
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 6: I know a lot of people who've inhabited that. When

1642
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 6: you watch gay media, like Looking or Fellow Travelers, you're like, oh.

1643
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 7: My god, that's that gay guy. That's that gay guy.

1644
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,800
Speaker 7: I know that person, right, I recognize that person. What

1645
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:36,240
Speaker 7: the movie does that's so great. I think it drills

1646
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 7: down less into stereotype although it's all over the movie,

1647
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 7: and more into types. It's about the there's a reason

1648
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 7: why there's so many women in the movie because it's

1649
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 7: multiplying the types of women that you see in a

1650
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 7: crowd like this. And one of the ways that type

1651
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:58,560
Speaker 7: apology is played out is that different types are represented

1652
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:04,120
Speaker 7: by their individual choices of the kinds of psychological compensatory

1653
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 7: things they pursue to make up for the failures of marriage.

1654
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:11,479
Speaker 7: Edith is the one that decides, I'll have an endless

1655
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:14,639
Speaker 7: number of babies. Oh yeah, and that's a type, right.

1656
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 7: They keep making fun of her because they're just like,

1657
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:18,600
Speaker 7: oh my god, like another.

1658
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:19,720
Speaker 3: One of eight children.

1659
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 4: Now it's I was like, okay, Catholic coded. They're totally so.

1660
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 7: The idea that like, she's the type of woman who

1661
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 7: compensates for the failures of marriage to live up to

1662
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:34,559
Speaker 7: all of its promises by having a lot of babies.

1663
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:41,760
Speaker 7: Rosalind Russell's Sylvia compensates by taking everybody down a peg, right,

1664
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:43,559
Speaker 7: like that is her joy.

1665
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, out of clear insecurity, which I think is like

1666
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 1: clearly telegraphed in the performance and on the page.

1667
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 4: Yeah there's Yeah, I found the lae I was looking for.

1668
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 1: It is a line from again I'm like one of

1669
01:24:57,320 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 1: the older women. I'm not totally sure because she also

1670
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:01,480
Speaker 1: covered in cosmetics.

1671
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:04,680
Speaker 4: But it's after that moment you were talking about Ramsey.

1672
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 1: Where like, yeah, the pilates or whatever, the exercise instructor

1673
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:10,599
Speaker 1: is like all right, I'm gonna leave.

1674
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's.

1675
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 14: So clueless, and it's like it is a good pestige

1676
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 14: of like clueless, wealthy white women, where she says, honestly,

1677
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 14: the class feeling you run into, I'm so sick of

1678
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 14: paying creatures like that to insult me, calling a working

1679
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:26,680
Speaker 14: class woman a creature, and also fully not questioning that.

1680
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 1: She may have been in the wrong, like it's just,

1681
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 1: it's just and it's it's kind of fun seeing that

1682
01:25:32,120 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 1: played out by actors.

1683
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,719
Speaker 4: Who are we know, privileged white women.

1684
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:41,839
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, totally also in that scene because Peggy eventually

1685
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:45,600
Speaker 3: comes in and starts doing the Calisenics with truly the

1686
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 3: worst form I've ever seen, like the form of these.

1687
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 4: I know, like Frankensteining toward the camera. Totally so funny.

1688
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:56,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, it made me laugh. But Peggy comes in, So

1689
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 3: she's the one who is newly married. She seems to

1690
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 3: be a bit naive, and it also seems as though

1691
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:05,599
Speaker 3: she makes more money than her husband.

1692
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 6: And her husband that's a problem.

1693
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:11,639
Speaker 3: Very clearly resents her for it. He makes her give

1694
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 3: him the money that she earns. He won't let her

1695
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 3: buy a car with her own money, like all of

1696
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 3: these things, and she tries to So she is sort

1697
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 3: of in a different place class wise than her peers

1698
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 3: because she has a job. We don't know what it is.

1699
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:30,400
Speaker 3: I don't think she works for her own money. And

1700
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,799
Speaker 3: her husband, unlike all these other women, is not wealthy,

1701
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:37,879
Speaker 3: so she's sort of in a different position in class

1702
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 3: than her peers. She tries to confide in Sylvia and

1703
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:47,400
Speaker 3: then later and Mary about this financial situation she has

1704
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,720
Speaker 3: had with her husband. Neither of them really know what

1705
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 3: to do in response to this. But I also like

1706
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 3: to speak to your point about types, like we do

1707
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 3: see so many different types of well not so many

1708
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,080
Speaker 3: different types, but different types of women. They are various

1709
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 3: positions in life. There are various perspectives in life. Some

1710
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 3: of that is informed by class, some of it is

1711
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 3: informed by generation and age and experience, some of you know,

1712
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:15,080
Speaker 3: all these different things. And that is one of the

1713
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 3: things I appreciate about this movie. And I don't know

1714
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:21,680
Speaker 3: if we want to turn gears to Mary's mother, but

1715
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,280
Speaker 3: I feel like we all have so much to say

1716
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:28,800
Speaker 3: she about her fascinating. She's major because she's one of

1717
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 3: the older characters. She's an older generation than most of

1718
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 3: the women who are like piling around together. She is

1719
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 3: very much someone who like recognizes that, like men's behavior

1720
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 3: is often questionable, a lot of them tend to lie

1721
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 3: and cheat, but she insists that you just have to

1722
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:56,800
Speaker 3: accept it. So in that way, she's she's upholding patriarchal

1723
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 3: expectations and like allowing men to have the power to

1724
01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:05,519
Speaker 3: be shitty and to display all this horrible behavior. She's

1725
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 3: just like, that's how we have to survive. Don't even

1726
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:10,680
Speaker 3: say anything about it, don't do anything about it, just

1727
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 3: accept it. Boys will be boys.

1728
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 1: And also reveals, I mean, yeah, that seemed really always

1729
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:19,719
Speaker 1: kind of stops me in my tracks because it also

1730
01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:22,280
Speaker 1: reveals that like it comes from a place of like

1731
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 1: a very personal place, because she experienced it, yeah, and

1732
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:31,120
Speaker 1: that her daughter had no idea as.

1733
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:32,760
Speaker 4: A very much an adult. I just that seems so much.

1734
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,680
Speaker 1: It's so weird to watch now because I think that,

1735
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, while it is cool to see Norma Chera's

1736
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 1: character stand up to her mother about that, because it

1737
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: is clearly ideals that need to be pushed back on

1738
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 1: and exist in a larger conversation, but there is like

1739
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:52,640
Speaker 1: a level of like pragmatism that a lot of this

1740
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 1: movie talks about that I think is again, like you've

1741
01:28:56,400 --> 01:28:59,200
Speaker 1: both referenced, at this point, there is no clear solution,

1742
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: but it's interesting. I'm like, I don't know if it's

1743
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 1: my I don't know how to feel about it, but

1744
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:06,480
Speaker 1: I definitely notice.

1745
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 4: That there is this element of like.

1746
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:16,520
Speaker 1: Mary acts on her righteous anger and her righteous feeling disrespected,

1747
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:19,640
Speaker 1: and she acts on her personal politics and her personal values,

1748
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 1: and she sulfers for it, and that is like a

1749
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,880
Speaker 1: very I think that that's something we don't often see

1750
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:28,760
Speaker 1: in movies, because movies are meant to show you like

1751
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:31,400
Speaker 1: that following your heart can only.

1752
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:33,599
Speaker 4: Achieve a positive and uncomplicated result.

1753
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:38,080
Speaker 1: This does not achieve a positive and uncomplicated result.

1754
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:40,160
Speaker 4: She's very like I mean she she finds.

1755
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:42,719
Speaker 1: I like that we see her find herself over time,

1756
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: but it is not immediate.

1757
01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:47,240
Speaker 4: I still don't think she should go back to Steven

1758
01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:49,679
Speaker 4: at the end, but I think that it is interesting

1759
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 4: watching her Reno narrative and watching the eighteen months later narrative.

1760
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 1: Where you see her like learn to be okay, but

1761
01:29:57,720 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 1: the world is judging her for it, and that is

1762
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:03,679
Speaker 1: is like I think, a more realistic view of people

1763
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 1: whose you know, personal politics and values don't align with

1764
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 1: their culture acting on them like it is a long

1765
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,679
Speaker 1: and difficult road, and I appreciate that her.

1766
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 4: Mother is able to accept that, even.

1767
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 1: If she doesn't completely agree with it. I was reminded,

1768
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:23,840
Speaker 1: I don't know like my parent, like my It's just

1769
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,919
Speaker 1: interesting that to know that that that line of thinking

1770
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 1: doesn't go away, especially when it comes to like how

1771
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:34,160
Speaker 1: do you manage this situation when there's children involved?

1772
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:37,320
Speaker 4: And I really love there's a line with Mary that

1773
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 4: feels very.

1774
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:42,679
Speaker 1: Just reminiscent of many divorces, including my parents, where it's

1775
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 1: like she says something like, well, what good is it

1776
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 1: going to do little Mary if she grows up in

1777
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 1: this like miserable household that is full of tension and

1778
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:53,439
Speaker 1: unresolved contra conflict.

1779
01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:54,519
Speaker 4: What is the point of that?

1780
01:30:54,840 --> 01:30:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's right, and also that doesn't mean that

1781
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 1: this divorce isn't going to be very difficult and complicated

1782
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 1: for everybody. And I just like, especially in the in

1783
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: like the context of like a pretty fast paced talkie comedy,

1784
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 1: to have complicated ideas like that presented with the almost

1785
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:13,960
Speaker 1: like realism of like and we don't know how to

1786
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:15,400
Speaker 1: resolve it.

1787
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:18,080
Speaker 15: It's part of why I find the ending so like, ooh,

1788
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 15: I would like even if there was a way under

1789
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:24,480
Speaker 15: the Hayze code for the ending to be more ambiguous

1790
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 15: than it is.

1791
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 4: Whatever it was eighty seven years ago, I get it.

1792
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:30,480
Speaker 3: But it's been eighty four years.

1793
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:31,760
Speaker 4: It's been and then some.

1794
01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 1: But like, it's just it is really interesting to see

1795
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 1: these cyclical conversations that exist among women and within feminism

1796
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 1: presented so clearly.

1797
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:47,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1798
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, because I mean, if you think about that conversation,

1799
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 7: the part of it that is boys will be boys

1800
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:58,000
Speaker 7: is when she says, this is how men resolve their unhappiness.

1801
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:02,679
Speaker 7: Women do it by change their hair or remodeling their house.

1802
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 7: So that part is essentialist, right, She's saying, well, women

1803
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 7: have a way of doing it.

1804
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:08,040
Speaker 4: Men have a way of doing it.

1805
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:12,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, but the underlying message is actually way more complex.

1806
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 7: She's saying men and women are equal in the fact

1807
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:19,920
Speaker 7: that they're existentially both unhappy. Like that is such a

1808
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 7: powerful thing, And all I could think of when I

1809
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:24,960
Speaker 7: rewatched it, if you put it in the current moment,

1810
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:27,040
Speaker 7: is that if you think about the you know, the

1811
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:32,320
Speaker 7: brilliant psychotherapist as their Parrell who writes all about how

1812
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:35,680
Speaker 7: like we now have in our current era, this obsession

1813
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 7: with the idea that if someone cheats on you, it

1814
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:42,160
Speaker 7: should destroy the whole relationship and blah blah blah, blah blah.

1815
01:32:42,200 --> 01:32:46,000
Speaker 7: And she says, that's a completely new paradigm. The idea

1816
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 7: that people have affairs and that that's basically normalized was

1817
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 7: completely like that was common knowledge, you know, before this era,

1818
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 7: because the idea was security mattered more than sexual fidelity,

1819
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:01,639
Speaker 7: right that having a lot like right, like the mom

1820
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:04,240
Speaker 7: says it matters who you and like who's with you

1821
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,160
Speaker 7: at the end, right, And Parrela is not saying the

1822
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 7: earlier model is good and the new model is bad.

1823
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:11,519
Speaker 7: She's saying each one of them are good and bad

1824
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 7: in their own ways, and She says, one of the

1825
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:17,280
Speaker 7: bad parts of the contemporary model is that we play

1826
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:20,719
Speaker 7: such a premium on sexual fidelity that if someone cheats

1827
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:24,400
Speaker 7: on you, there's no possibility for repair. It's not seen

1828
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 7: as the potential for the beginning of a new chapter

1829
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 7: of the relationship. And there is no attempt to understand

1830
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,599
Speaker 7: why someone cheated. And I think that there's an amazing,

1831
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 7: you know, thing that the movie is saying that is, like,

1832
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 7: maybe it's worth exploring that men do these things because

1833
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:44,439
Speaker 7: they're unhappy, and women also do things because they're unhappy.

1834
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:47,559
Speaker 7: The movie can't accept the idea that women also cheat,

1835
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:49,799
Speaker 7: that women also have affairs.

1836
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 4: Well, but Crystal, you know, like Crystal, that's actually right.

1837
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 1: I take that back, and Miriam, it's pretty accepted that

1838
01:33:57,400 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 1: Miriam does, so yeah, you're so right.

1839
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 4: Is interesting though, Yeah, I totally. I mean, if we

1840
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 4: start talking about the politics of cheating, will be her

1841
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 4: all night.

1842
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:12,040
Speaker 1: Sure, But like, it is interesting how this movie approaches it,

1843
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 1: because I don't know, like, in my perspective, the way

1844
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:20,559
Speaker 1: that cheating is handled culturally is like almost irrelevant to

1845
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,559
Speaker 1: the point where like it's it's culturally relevant, but it's.

1846
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:26,240
Speaker 4: Like it just depends on the people involved, right, Like,

1847
01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:29,360
Speaker 4: it's just like there are some people who can whatever.

1848
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:30,600
Speaker 4: It's it's all circumstantial.

1849
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for Mary, she can't tolerate it, you know,

1850
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:37,720
Speaker 1: and that and she acts on that, and then there

1851
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:39,640
Speaker 1: are relationships.

1852
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:42,960
Speaker 4: That can withstand that can and like handle that stress test.

1853
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:46,240
Speaker 4: But I don't know, it is like you're totally right

1854
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 4: like that that.

1855
01:34:46,920 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 16: That can of worms is opened and it's an unresolvable

1856
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:53,600
Speaker 16: can of worms. Oh totally and like and I like

1857
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:57,160
Speaker 16: that the movie doesn't pretend I mean again, the ending

1858
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 16: kind of feels like nope, if you're I guess like

1859
01:35:00,360 --> 01:35:01,280
Speaker 16: that's part of why.

1860
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:04,720
Speaker 1: It's an idea introduced in this fascinating way by her

1861
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 1: mom in a way that is clearly personal, in a

1862
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 1: way that is clearly pragmatic, in a way that she

1863
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:09,839
Speaker 1: doesn't want to see.

1864
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:12,240
Speaker 4: Her daughter lose the security that she has.

1865
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 1: So it's almost like, you know, love isn't enough, but

1866
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 1: it's nineteen thirty nine, so what are you going to do?

1867
01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 4: It's an interesting idea to present, but then I feel

1868
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 4: like the.

1869
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:25,640
Speaker 12: End of the movie kind of overvalidates it by I

1870
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:28,240
Speaker 12: don't know, I guess, like the way that this movie

1871
01:35:28,280 --> 01:35:32,080
Speaker 12: is in conversation with like first wave feminism is interesting

1872
01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 12: because obviously, like first wave feminism was deeply racist.

1873
01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:40,160
Speaker 1: And homopholedic, as is to some degree every way of feminism.

1874
01:35:39,320 --> 01:35:43,599
Speaker 1: But with regards to like marriage, first wave feminism did

1875
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 1: accomplish a lot in terms of like pushing back on the.

1876
01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:50,120
Speaker 4: Idea that a man is essential to survival.

1877
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:52,439
Speaker 1: And I feel like the movies that we see in

1878
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:55,479
Speaker 1: the years following women getting the vote are trying to

1879
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:57,599
Speaker 1: interact with that idea.

1880
01:35:57,040 --> 01:36:01,160
Speaker 4: While subtly being like, but you should still probably be married,

1881
01:36:01,360 --> 01:36:03,759
Speaker 4: you know, like that, and that's the ending.

1882
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,839
Speaker 7: And let's add that they need to for economic reasons.

1883
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:10,000
Speaker 7: I mean, something we haven't talked about is like the

1884
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:16,040
Speaker 7: movie It very honestly dramatizes the fact that this dysfunctional

1885
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:19,600
Speaker 7: sexual arrangement between men and women that we call heterosexuality

1886
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:21,320
Speaker 7: feeds our economy.

1887
01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:24,559
Speaker 6: Yes, like it is absolutely important.

1888
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:30,560
Speaker 7: The fact that women respond to feeling left alone, feeling undesirable, unloved,

1889
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:32,759
Speaker 7: that they go and spend tons of money on clothes,

1890
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:37,120
Speaker 7: that they buy tons of things for the house, that

1891
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 7: they travel, that they go on vacation. The idea that

1892
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:44,439
Speaker 7: like this arrangement keeps people in their place and keeps

1893
01:36:44,479 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 7: the economy running. Reno is basically like funded by the

1894
01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:52,439
Speaker 7: fact that tons of women go there and pay money

1895
01:36:52,479 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 7: to be in these like sort of halfway houses and

1896
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:56,439
Speaker 7: all of this stuff.

1897
01:36:56,760 --> 01:36:59,040
Speaker 6: So I think that the movie is really honest.

1898
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:01,920
Speaker 7: About the fact that heterosexuality also feeds the economy. And

1899
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:05,720
Speaker 7: I think it's an interesting historical context to think that

1900
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:07,719
Speaker 7: the movie is right on the cusp of the moment

1901
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:11,840
Speaker 7: when millions of American women will enter the workforce as

1902
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:14,599
Speaker 7: part of the World War two effort, right, and they

1903
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:16,559
Speaker 7: will end at the end of that many of them

1904
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:18,840
Speaker 7: will end up like Peggy, which is that they will

1905
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:20,800
Speaker 7: be making their own money and they will start to

1906
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:22,280
Speaker 7: be like, do I really want to go back?

1907
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 4: Right?

1908
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 6: The government has to go through a.

1909
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:31,559
Speaker 7: Massive cultural effort to literally fund making people go back

1910
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 7: into the suburban. Like the GI Bill is the government

1911
01:37:34,439 --> 01:37:36,400
Speaker 7: saying we will pay you a check and pay for

1912
01:37:36,439 --> 01:37:38,240
Speaker 7: you to go to school and buy a house if

1913
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:41,559
Speaker 7: you get married and if women stop working, like that's

1914
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:44,519
Speaker 7: the payoff. So I think like the movie is at

1915
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:45,759
Speaker 7: the cusp of that moment.

1916
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it is such a weird historical moment for

1917
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:54,599
Speaker 1: this movie to come out, But it's so interesting and like, yeah,

1918
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:58,559
Speaker 1: unfortunately because we're living in love fucking ra boris Like

1919
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 1: it feels very real evant to a lot of stuff

1920
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:03,679
Speaker 1: that we're talking about now, where it's like we have

1921
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 1: significant government forces trying to force marriage back upon women,

1922
01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:14,320
Speaker 1: force comphet ideals and punish people who are who resist that,

1923
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 1: And I don't know, it is interesting having a character

1924
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:21,479
Speaker 1: like Mary who's pushing back on it, but the moral

1925
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:23,720
Speaker 1: I mean, the last words out of her mouth are like,

1926
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:25,560
Speaker 1: I don't have time for pride.

1927
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:26,400
Speaker 4: I'm in love.

1928
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:33,120
Speaker 1: Like but having that, like we've been talking about, like

1929
01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:36,759
Speaker 1: having that sort of like challenged by the working class

1930
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 1: girls where there is still even though Mary's come so

1931
01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:40,680
Speaker 1: far as a person, there's always going to be sort

1932
01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:44,320
Speaker 1: of this baseline privileged naivete about her worldview she can

1933
01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: afford to, you know, be doing this. Crystal is like

1934
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:50,720
Speaker 1: survival wise in this world, I have to go back

1935
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:51,799
Speaker 1: to work, if.

1936
01:38:52,080 --> 01:38:56,000
Speaker 17: You know, and absolutely work making sucks ass and there's

1937
01:38:56,120 --> 01:38:58,960
Speaker 17: not a lot of like fun interesting jobs available to

1938
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:01,880
Speaker 17: women at this time and so like, I don't know,

1939
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,639
Speaker 17: I just I have a lot of I mean, Crystal

1940
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:06,800
Speaker 17: is So it's also just fun watching like a Joan

1941
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 17: Crawford villain.

1942
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 1: Oh sure, because she's just so good at being a bitch.

1943
01:39:12,800 --> 01:39:15,480
Speaker 6: She's like wicked. She looks like wicked.

1944
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,840
Speaker 4: Eyebrows, and it's just like amazing. I know.

1945
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:20,640
Speaker 7: The fact that it's painted on is also kind of

1946
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:25,360
Speaker 7: Hollywood saying like she's an authentic her and her eyebrows.

1947
01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:26,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, her and Rosalind Russell.

1948
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:30,599
Speaker 1: In anytime they're together on screen, I'm like, woo, it's

1949
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 1: just I love them. But but yeah, like that that,

1950
01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, she has to sort of go back, but

1951
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:38,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like I don't know, like by the

1952
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,759
Speaker 1: end of the movie, it almost feels like this weird

1953
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:43,799
Speaker 1: handshake between the two.

1954
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:47,679
Speaker 4: Women where she like, it's not they're never gonna be friends,

1955
01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 4: like why the hell would they be, But it's almost like,

1956
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 4: all right, you in this round, we play the game,

1957
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 4: Yeah you next time, bitch, Like it's kind of fun.

1958
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:57,800
Speaker 4: I don't know, And is that misogynous?

1959
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:00,640
Speaker 17: Yeah, but there, I don't know.

1960
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:03,639
Speaker 4: It's just it's such a beefy little text.

1961
01:40:03,720 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 6: It's also honest in a way.

1962
01:40:05,760 --> 01:40:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, because it's like the world is not going

1963
01:40:08,320 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 1: to repair in their favor anytime soon, so the chances

1964
01:40:11,479 --> 01:40:14,559
Speaker 1: are we will be encountering this issue again until the

1965
01:40:14,600 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 1: world is different totally well.

1966
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:19,280
Speaker 3: To me, there are three major reasons why the ending

1967
01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:24,120
Speaker 3: is so frustrating. One is that for a while, the

1968
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:27,840
Speaker 3: movie seems to be on a trajectory where we think

1969
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 3: it's going to end with Mary like fully realizing and

1970
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:36,840
Speaker 3: coming to terms and being content with the decision she

1971
01:40:36,920 --> 01:40:41,280
Speaker 3: has made to leave her husband and not settle for

1972
01:40:41,479 --> 01:40:46,519
Speaker 3: a man who is dishonest and doesn't meet her emotional needs.

1973
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 3: But then she goes back with him after he realizes

1974
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:56,280
Speaker 3: that his current wife is cheating on him. So that's

1975
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:59,759
Speaker 3: reason number one, where there's a certain trajectory, a certain

1976
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:02,800
Speaker 3: of expectation that the movie starts to set up for

1977
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:05,920
Speaker 3: the audience, and then it's like, just kidding, Nope, never mind. Yeah,

1978
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 3: number two and this is kind of part of this,

1979
01:41:09,080 --> 01:41:13,760
Speaker 3: but Stephen has done nothing to redeem himself, nothing true,

1980
01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:17,160
Speaker 3: earn her back or anything like that. It's just that

1981
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:19,439
Speaker 3: he's gotten a taste of his own medicine. He's been

1982
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 3: cheated on, and now he knows how it feels, so

1983
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:23,320
Speaker 3: he'll go back with his first wife.

1984
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 4: And you're just like, that's not how that works. That

1985
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:30,360
Speaker 4: there is an element of like he started it. She

1986
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:32,800
Speaker 4: was not doing anything wrong. She was driving, she was

1987
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:34,840
Speaker 4: driving horses. She was whatever she was doing when.

1988
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 1: She was quote unquote supposed to do, which is also

1989
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:40,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, just like such a I whatever, my

1990
01:41:40,280 --> 01:41:43,519
Speaker 1: dad's dead, it's fine, like my but like listening to

1991
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 1: how my mom processed infidelity within their relationship, it was

1992
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:50,720
Speaker 1: like not dissimilar to Mary.

1993
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:53,439
Speaker 4: I mean, if we didn't have fucking horses, we were poor.

1994
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:56,240
Speaker 1: But the idea of like I was doing all of

1995
01:41:56,240 --> 01:41:58,760
Speaker 1: the right things, how could this have possibly happened to me?

1996
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:03,559
Speaker 1: And like almost like it's the disappointment and anchor of

1997
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:06,599
Speaker 1: being cheated on, But it's also the like I mean

1998
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:08,880
Speaker 1: questioning the entire view of the world where it's like

1999
01:42:09,040 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 1: you've done everything right and your worst case scenario still happens,

2000
01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:13,960
Speaker 1: So what now?

2001
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 4: And I feel like, Yeah, the ending does not really

2002
01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:18,559
Speaker 4: pay off on that.

2003
01:42:18,720 --> 01:42:20,880
Speaker 1: Because it's like, oh, she goes on this whole journey

2004
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:24,160
Speaker 1: of self discovery, she seems basically happy, and then she

2005
01:42:24,280 --> 01:42:25,559
Speaker 1: just goes back to where she was.

2006
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:27,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the arc that the movie seems like it

2007
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:30,720
Speaker 3: was setting up for her is just like completely abandoned.

2008
01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:34,200
Speaker 3: And again Hollywood movies of this era had to adhere

2009
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:37,280
Speaker 3: to the restrictions of the Hayes Code, which was all

2010
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:44,160
Speaker 3: about promoting you know, family values aka conservative Christian American values. Yeah,

2011
01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:47,679
Speaker 3: but it still makes for a frustrating conclusion to this narrative.

2012
01:42:48,560 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 3: And then the third reason that I find this ending

2013
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 3: to be frustrating is that Mary cooks up this little

2014
01:42:56,640 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 3: scheme where she exposes Crystal for having an affair, and

2015
01:43:01,040 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 3: this happens at the expense of her friend, the Countess,

2016
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 3: who humiliated. She's devastated, and Mary does not seem to

2017
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:12,599
Speaker 3: give a single shit that she hurt her friend.

2018
01:43:13,120 --> 01:43:17,879
Speaker 7: I think it's because Mary wants to exercise a degree

2019
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:21,640
Speaker 7: of wickedness that she's never been able to write. Like

2020
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,920
Speaker 7: the movie allows her this because she's been jilted.

2021
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:26,880
Speaker 4: But like the Countess catches a serious stray.

2022
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:30,840
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I didn't even I honestly hadn't really fully

2023
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:33,120
Speaker 1: connected that because the ending moves so fast.

2024
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 3: Totally, yeah, it really does. But yeah, I'm just like

2025
01:43:36,280 --> 01:43:39,599
Speaker 3: my second watch, I was like, oh my god, Like, yeah,

2026
01:43:39,600 --> 01:43:44,480
Speaker 3: the Countess is devastated, she's crying, she's been publicly humiliated,

2027
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 3: and Mary's just like it doesn't matter. I have my

2028
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:48,559
Speaker 3: husband back.

2029
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 8: Hah.

2030
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 6: It's like she'll take one for the team.

2031
01:43:50,439 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, But it's like Countess has I don't know,

2032
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:57,799
Speaker 1: I really have liked the Countess Lucy, like older wiser

2033
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:00,679
Speaker 1: women who are presented as types, but who are also

2034
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 1: does fundamentally wont to be supportive to the.

2035
01:44:04,120 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 4: Younger women going through what they've already been through.

2036
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:09,439
Speaker 1: And so it's like that in that specifically, like in

2037
01:44:09,439 --> 01:44:12,080
Speaker 1: that context that is so like they should be.

2038
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:15,320
Speaker 4: Respect your elders. Norma Shearer.

2039
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Caitlin and Jamie jumping in with a quick pickup

2040
01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:25,040
Speaker 3: because future us future us here. We ran out of

2041
01:44:25,120 --> 01:44:28,479
Speaker 3: time during our recording with Ramsey, but we just wanted

2042
01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:32,080
Speaker 3: to jump in here with just a quick pickup to

2043
01:44:32,120 --> 01:44:37,559
Speaker 3: talk briefly about a character named Lulu. So basically, we

2044
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:41,320
Speaker 3: see a character at the department store where Crystal works.

2045
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:44,360
Speaker 3: I believe it's one of Crystal's colleagues who makes a

2046
01:44:44,920 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 3: racist joke about this character, Lulu, who we see very

2047
01:44:50,680 --> 01:44:54,680
Speaker 3: briefly in a different scene, played by Butterfly McQueen. She

2048
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:58,960
Speaker 3: I believe plays a maid who works for Crystal.

2049
01:44:59,040 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 4: Which I believe it's true.

2050
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:03,479
Speaker 18: But the fact that we have to guess tells you

2051
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,759
Speaker 18: how much we know about this character precisely, And Butterfly

2052
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:13,640
Speaker 18: McQueen was type cast very often as a maid, the

2053
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 18: way that for many many years in Hollywood, black women

2054
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:19,719
Speaker 18: were type cast in service roles.

2055
01:45:19,760 --> 01:45:23,360
Speaker 3: Black actors in general were very limited, and.

2056
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 1: This same year, Butterfly McQueen famously played an enslaved character

2057
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:29,240
Speaker 1: and Gone with the.

2058
01:45:29,200 --> 01:45:33,160
Speaker 3: Wind, Yes, exactly. So I just wanted to share a

2059
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 3: quote from her that is relevant to her character in

2060
01:45:37,439 --> 01:45:41,200
Speaker 3: this movie, because she says, quote, I didn't mind playing

2061
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 3: a maid the first time, because I thought that was

2062
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 3: how you got into the business. But after I did

2063
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:50,880
Speaker 3: the same thing over and over, I resented it. I

2064
01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:55,280
Speaker 3: didn't mind being funny, but I didn't like being stupid unquote.

2065
01:45:55,680 --> 01:45:58,320
Speaker 3: As far as she's presented in this movie, i've I mean,

2066
01:45:58,360 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 3: we only see her in that very brief seen and

2067
01:46:01,040 --> 01:46:04,439
Speaker 3: then we see white characters say racist things about her,

2068
01:46:04,479 --> 01:46:06,960
Speaker 3: and that's really just all we get.

2069
01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:10,439
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, this is like nowhere near again. It's like,

2070
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:15,360
Speaker 1: just speaking to Butterfly McQueen's nineteen thirty nine, this is

2071
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:19,920
Speaker 1: nowhere near the most offensive way that this actor has

2072
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:22,080
Speaker 1: been portrayed in this calendar year.

2073
01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:23,720
Speaker 4: So just again to speak to it.

2074
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 6: And this is also still.

2075
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:28,000
Speaker 1: While the Hayes Code is in effect and it will

2076
01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:31,479
Speaker 1: be for many years to come, which just inherently limited

2077
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:36,000
Speaker 1: the roles that were available to black actors, even if

2078
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:41,280
Speaker 1: creatives wanted to provide better roles, which is I mean, we.

2079
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 6: Could do it.

2080
01:46:42,320 --> 01:46:45,080
Speaker 1: Doctoral thesis is worth of discussion about.

2081
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:48,160
Speaker 4: That, but feel's important to reference here.

2082
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:52,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely, So, yeah, we just wanted to call attention to

2083
01:46:52,160 --> 01:46:57,799
Speaker 3: that and shout out Butterfly McQueen. And then the last

2084
01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:03,600
Speaker 3: thing and very seamlessly we're jumping back into the episode

2085
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:08,040
Speaker 3: is to examine whether or not this movie passes the

2086
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:11,040
Speaker 3: Bechdel test because there is a discussion to be had

2087
01:47:11,080 --> 01:47:11,519
Speaker 3: around it.

2088
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:12,760
Speaker 4: Does I think it does too.

2089
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:16,120
Speaker 3: It is mostly women talking about men. I would say

2090
01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:21,240
Speaker 3: probably ninety percent of the conversations are women talking about men. However,

2091
01:47:21,400 --> 01:47:26,640
Speaker 3: there are short exchanges where women talk about perfume, dresses,

2092
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:31,240
Speaker 3: your right hair, sekincare, nail polish.

2093
01:47:31,280 --> 01:47:31,479
Speaker 1: Well.

2094
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:33,760
Speaker 4: I also, I'll push back a little more.

2095
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:35,920
Speaker 1: I think that there are a number of conversations in

2096
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:39,200
Speaker 1: this movie that are about how women perceive each other.

2097
01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:40,840
Speaker 4: It is not the.

2098
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:44,720
Speaker 1: Majority of the movie, but it is enough of it

2099
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 1: that I feel like I'm officially against the tagline of

2100
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:48,679
Speaker 1: the movie.

2101
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:51,479
Speaker 4: It's not all about men. It is a lot about men,

2102
01:47:51,560 --> 01:47:52,880
Speaker 4: but it's not all about men.

2103
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:53,519
Speaker 6: That's fair.

2104
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:55,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually agree with you both.

2105
01:47:55,960 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 7: I think that's exactly right. I also think, you know,

2106
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:04,080
Speaker 7: the women, it's very meta. The women talk about not

2107
01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:07,960
Speaker 7: just men, but their relationship to the problem of relating

2108
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 7: to men, like right, Like that I think is so interesting.

2109
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 7: I mean, the one thing I wanted to say in

2110
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:16,439
Speaker 7: this episode also was like, the movie that this reminds

2111
01:48:16,479 --> 01:48:19,320
Speaker 7: me of the most is The Boys in the Band from.

2112
01:48:19,240 --> 01:48:20,839
Speaker 4: Nineteen seventy familiar.

2113
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:22,920
Speaker 6: It's astonishing movie.

2114
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:26,880
Speaker 7: It's the first movie with all out gay men as

2115
01:48:27,360 --> 01:48:29,920
Speaker 7: main characters. The majority of the cast are gay men.

2116
01:48:29,960 --> 01:48:33,040
Speaker 7: There's two straight men in it. They're not straight in

2117
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:36,120
Speaker 7: the movie, but they're straight in real life. And you know,

2118
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:39,000
Speaker 7: it was first also a play on Broadway. It ran

2119
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,599
Speaker 7: for like a thousand shows, sold out. And what's amazing

2120
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,920
Speaker 7: is it has very similar structure that it is like

2121
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:49,000
Speaker 7: about a group of gay men living in New York,

2122
01:48:49,160 --> 01:48:52,439
Speaker 7: most of whom are upper middle class, not rich at all.

2123
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:56,280
Speaker 7: Most of them work, but they're middle upper class and

2124
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:59,280
Speaker 7: it's them screaming at each other for an entire evening

2125
01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:02,880
Speaker 7: about their experiant of homophobia. And so one could argue

2126
01:49:02,960 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 7: that it's a group of men talking about men, but

2127
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 7: really what they're doing I have a whole chapter of

2128
01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:11,559
Speaker 7: my second book about that happens, and I'm obsessed with it.

2129
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:17,080
Speaker 7: They are talking about their their emotional and effective relationship

2130
01:49:17,120 --> 01:49:21,600
Speaker 7: to the problem of male desire, right, Like they're just

2131
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:25,680
Speaker 7: like desiring men puts us in this marginalized position, but

2132
01:49:25,920 --> 01:49:29,240
Speaker 7: also sort of is like sexy and makes life also

2133
01:49:29,320 --> 01:49:32,440
Speaker 7: kind of a nightmare because men treat each other like garbage,

2134
01:49:32,760 --> 01:49:36,160
Speaker 7: and like there's so much internalized homophobia, and it's them

2135
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:38,559
Speaker 7: working that out, and they do it in a way

2136
01:49:38,560 --> 01:49:40,840
Speaker 7: that's very vicious towards each other.

2137
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:43,479
Speaker 6: And what I love about the movie is it was

2138
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 6: panned in.

2139
01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:48,440
Speaker 7: Its moments as homophobic, as stereotypes and blah blah blah.

2140
01:49:48,479 --> 01:49:50,080
Speaker 7: And one of the things I argue in my work

2141
01:49:50,160 --> 01:49:53,400
Speaker 7: is like, but the genius of the movie is that

2142
01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:56,920
Speaker 7: it's honest about the fact that when people who've been

2143
01:49:56,960 --> 01:50:03,000
Speaker 7: marginalized first start to un pack the depth of their oppression,

2144
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:06,479
Speaker 7: they are going to be mean to each other. Like

2145
01:50:06,600 --> 01:50:10,880
Speaker 7: it's going to bring up so much unresolved rage that

2146
01:50:11,040 --> 01:50:16,120
Speaker 7: cannot be adequately projected onto the right sources, that they

2147
01:50:16,160 --> 01:50:18,760
Speaker 7: will do it to each other. And that's honest, and

2148
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:22,599
Speaker 7: expecting people from jump to be super nice while they're

2149
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:25,760
Speaker 7: doing that right is unrealistic. And I love that the

2150
01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:28,240
Speaker 7: movie basically says like there's a great moment at the

2151
01:50:28,320 --> 01:50:31,680
Speaker 7: end where after this one friend has basically like annihilated

2152
01:50:31,720 --> 01:50:36,120
Speaker 7: everybody and he gets socially punished by his friends for it,

2153
01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:38,360
Speaker 7: and in the last moment, one of his best friends

2154
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:41,720
Speaker 7: looks at him and like just nails him to the wall,

2155
01:50:41,840 --> 01:50:44,160
Speaker 7: like just is like you, how you have behaved tonight

2156
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:44,960
Speaker 7: is so disgusting.

2157
01:50:45,200 --> 01:50:46,519
Speaker 6: And then at the end of it is like I'll

2158
01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 6: call you tomorrow, all right, Like yeah.

2159
01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:52,559
Speaker 7: There's this amazing like like we know. And I think

2160
01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:55,519
Speaker 7: The Women is an earlier version of this that is

2161
01:50:55,600 --> 01:51:01,400
Speaker 7: about women trying to relieve themselves of the amount of rage, irritation,

2162
01:51:01,479 --> 01:51:03,599
Speaker 7: and frustration they feel towards the way that men are

2163
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 7: treating them, and they take it out on each other,

2164
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 7: but they also have a very thick skin and their

2165
01:51:09,520 --> 01:51:12,479
Speaker 7: ability to survive it and to also sort of like

2166
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,160
Speaker 7: be like Okay, whatever, I forgive you you know, like,

2167
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:17,800
Speaker 7: I guess i'll see it, see it tomorrow. Right, There

2168
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 7: is this sense that that I think is the meat

2169
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:22,160
Speaker 7: of the movie, and I think the idea that it

2170
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:24,599
Speaker 7: ends with her returning the last thing I'll say about

2171
01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:28,040
Speaker 7: the end. I think it's fair to say there's enough

2172
01:51:28,080 --> 01:51:31,280
Speaker 7: of an intelligent audience who watched that movie and we're like, oh,

2173
01:51:31,280 --> 01:51:33,000
Speaker 7: that's ridiculous, but I love the movie.

2174
01:51:33,280 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, who can see the ending as ridiculous?

2175
01:51:36,360 --> 01:51:39,200
Speaker 3: It's it is ridiculous, as ridiculous as fantasy.

2176
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:42,280
Speaker 1: Yes, and also is like, well, I think what it

2177
01:51:42,600 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 1: had to be to be released in the time it

2178
01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:46,920
Speaker 1: came out, correct, Yeah, totally.

2179
01:51:48,040 --> 01:51:50,000
Speaker 3: I mean you could do you could do a super

2180
01:51:50,040 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 3: cut from this movie that's just all the lines of

2181
01:51:53,040 --> 01:51:59,240
Speaker 3: dialogue where women are saying something like men cannot be trusted,

2182
01:51:59,600 --> 01:52:01,280
Speaker 3: men only want one thing.

2183
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 7: Men, You're living enough fools paradise across generations, across class.

2184
01:52:07,439 --> 01:52:09,760
Speaker 3: That super cut would be like ten minutes long. Like,

2185
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 3: there are so many examples absolutely this, and so what

2186
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:16,080
Speaker 3: you know, we we joke on the podcast sometimes that

2187
01:52:16,120 --> 01:52:18,080
Speaker 3: it does pass the Bechdel test when women are like

2188
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:19,000
Speaker 3: shit talking men.

2189
01:52:19,360 --> 01:52:21,160
Speaker 6: Sure, yeah, yeah.

2190
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:23,160
Speaker 1: I think this is a movie where you could actually

2191
01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:26,639
Speaker 1: really make that argument, because yeah, some extent, it's.

2192
01:52:26,439 --> 01:52:29,920
Speaker 4: Like in the period you're writing and releasing it into

2193
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:31,280
Speaker 4: what can you get away with?

2194
01:52:31,680 --> 01:52:34,960
Speaker 2: And I think that this movie is doing almost everything

2195
01:52:34,960 --> 01:52:38,800
Speaker 2: it can, not quite but more than most movies, and

2196
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:41,840
Speaker 2: more the most popular movies at this time could to

2197
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:44,400
Speaker 2: get away with a lot of stuff that even almost

2198
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:45,759
Speaker 2: one hundred years later, you're.

2199
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:47,679
Speaker 4: Like, oh, that was a good one, totally.

2200
01:52:47,960 --> 01:52:49,160
Speaker 6: It's really amazing.

2201
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:52,879
Speaker 1: The Bechdel test is one thing that what about the

2202
01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:56,240
Speaker 1: world's only perfect media metric, which is the bechel Cast

2203
01:52:56,320 --> 01:52:57,240
Speaker 1: Nipple scale.

2204
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:59,400
Speaker 3: The nipple scale where we rate the movie on a

2205
01:52:59,439 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 3: scale of z. I wrote to five nipples based on

2206
01:53:02,200 --> 01:53:07,280
Speaker 3: examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Now here's

2207
01:53:07,320 --> 01:53:10,360
Speaker 3: the thing with this movie. To me, The Bechdel Cast

2208
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:12,840
Speaker 3: Nipples scale is such a modern metric, and to apply

2209
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:18,000
Speaker 3: it to a movie that's almost ninety years old, I don't.

2210
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:21,280
Speaker 3: I Just what I'm saying is I might I might

2211
01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:23,519
Speaker 3: refrain from rating on the nipple scale because I have

2212
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:25,040
Speaker 3: no freaking idea.

2213
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:27,720
Speaker 7: Well, I will, I will get I will whether we

2214
01:53:27,800 --> 01:53:31,160
Speaker 7: rate it or Notah, I'm not overly attached to giving

2215
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:31,679
Speaker 7: it a rating.

2216
01:53:33,280 --> 01:53:33,439
Speaker 1: You know.

2217
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:38,160
Speaker 7: Jennifer Nash, famous black feminist, she says, you know, in

2218
01:53:38,200 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 7: her book Black Feminism Reimagined, She's like, one of the

2219
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:45,760
Speaker 7: problems with intersectional thought is that it has centered race

2220
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:50,320
Speaker 7: so intensely that it leaves out the question of, like,

2221
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:52,920
Speaker 7: can you do an intersectional read where race is not

2222
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:57,639
Speaker 7: the dominant sure category? Right, And in this movie race

2223
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:01,800
Speaker 7: is everywhere without being talked about in terms of whiteness,

2224
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:05,120
Speaker 7: but blackness is not that which was centered or.

2225
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:06,640
Speaker 6: Other forms of racialization.

2226
01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:14,880
Speaker 7: And yet it intersects age and class so intensely. Those

2227
01:54:14,920 --> 01:54:18,719
Speaker 7: two you guys talked about the intergenerational competition. There's three

2228
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:22,519
Speaker 7: generations of women, the grandmothers, the mothers, and the daughters basically,

2229
01:54:23,240 --> 01:54:27,439
Speaker 7: and I think that classes everywhere. So I think, whether

2230
01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:30,639
Speaker 7: you rat it or not, it is a deeply intersectional film.

2231
01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:33,160
Speaker 7: It's just not intersectional in the way that we associate

2232
01:54:33,200 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 7: with with its origins and black feminist thought, because it

2233
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:41,080
Speaker 7: is it does not centralize race and or blackness specifically

2234
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:45,360
Speaker 7: as a primary vector of cultural analysis, which so few

2235
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:48,880
Speaker 7: movies from this era did totally, which is why, which

2236
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:49,400
Speaker 7: is why.

2237
01:54:49,480 --> 01:54:51,200
Speaker 4: It's like it's hard to apply this scale.

2238
01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:51,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

2239
01:54:52,040 --> 01:54:53,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, so well.

2240
01:54:53,160 --> 01:54:55,760
Speaker 4: We can, we can, we can say we're going to

2241
01:54:55,840 --> 01:54:56,400
Speaker 4: forego it.

2242
01:54:56,520 --> 01:54:58,200
Speaker 1: And if you want to know what we think, we

2243
01:54:58,360 --> 01:55:02,160
Speaker 1: just recorded over two hours, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

2244
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:06,280
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, just rewind and listen again. So with that, Ramsey,

2245
01:55:06,280 --> 01:55:07,560
Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us.

2246
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:10,240
Speaker 6: Oh my pleasure, this is such a GIF. Thank you

2247
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:11,000
Speaker 6: for having.

2248
01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:13,360
Speaker 4: Me come back for I would love you whatever you want.

2249
01:55:13,480 --> 01:55:15,680
Speaker 6: Okay, there's a million ideas I have.

2250
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:17,880
Speaker 4: We could totally oh yay perfect.

2251
01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:21,839
Speaker 3: Where can people follow your work? Check out your writing?

2252
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:23,600
Speaker 3: Plug anything you'd like to plug?

2253
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:28,760
Speaker 7: So, ramseyfowas dot com is a phenomenal resource. I have

2254
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:32,440
Speaker 7: all of my published essays available open source for people there.

2255
01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:35,240
Speaker 7: I have links to all my books, to the special

2256
01:55:35,280 --> 01:55:38,760
Speaker 7: issues that I have edited, and I also have information

2257
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:43,880
Speaker 7: there about my yearly or annual courses at the Esslin Institute.

2258
01:55:44,440 --> 01:55:49,000
Speaker 7: The Esslin Institute is an extraordinary, world famous consciousness expansion

2259
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:52,040
Speaker 7: retreat on the edge of Big Sur, California. It's one

2260
01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:54,400
Speaker 7: of the most beautiful, miraculous places you could go in.

2261
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:57,080
Speaker 7: Every year, I offer a five day seminar where I

2262
01:55:57,160 --> 01:55:58,720
Speaker 7: kind of take a lot of the ideas from my

2263
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:02,040
Speaker 7: scholarly work and I package them in a wellness model

2264
01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:07,760
Speaker 7: where I kind of talk about how feminist feminist thought

2265
01:56:08,200 --> 01:56:13,160
Speaker 7: can also benefit reducing your anxiety and actually like changing

2266
01:56:13,160 --> 01:56:15,440
Speaker 7: your relationship to the world. So I'm teaching a seminar

2267
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:20,280
Speaker 7: in June called the Thrill of Groundlessness Flowing through Life

2268
01:56:20,280 --> 01:56:24,400
Speaker 7: without Absolutes. People can find information about that on my website.

2269
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:27,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, there so cool flow.

2270
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 7: It's such a beautiful environment. We're gonna read, We're gonna

2271
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 7: read a little short excerpts from different texts, and we're

2272
01:56:33,880 --> 01:56:36,280
Speaker 7: gonna watch movies. We're gonna talk about them. And it's

2273
01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:39,919
Speaker 7: an amazing place. And I'm also a columnist for Film Quarterly,

2274
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:42,840
Speaker 7: where I write a column every three to six months

2275
01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 7: about a different media form.

2276
01:56:43,920 --> 01:56:45,240
Speaker 6: I just published a piece about.

2277
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:51,360
Speaker 7: And or amazing show, revolutionary show, and I will be

2278
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:53,760
Speaker 7: writing my next piece about heated rivalry, and so you

2279
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:55,520
Speaker 7: can find all of that on my website.

2280
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:57,400
Speaker 4: Arts will be Broken. I can't wait.

2281
01:56:57,520 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 7: Art's gotta be broken. Listen, sometimes we got to get

2282
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:01,800
Speaker 7: out of that fantasy. I'm gonna be the kill Joy.

2283
01:57:01,840 --> 01:57:04,400
Speaker 7: I'm gonna be Caitlin in that essay.

2284
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:08,360
Speaker 6: Love It Brave, Oh a blessing. I nerd from the

2285
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:10,320
Speaker 6: Future on Instagram.

2286
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:12,680
Speaker 1: Yes, perfect, check that out, listeners, and you can find

2287
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:14,800
Speaker 1: us in all the normal places, which is really just

2288
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 1: two places. You can find us on our Patreon aka Matreon,

2289
01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:21,480
Speaker 1: where for five dollars a month you can get access to.

2290
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:24,480
Speaker 4: Two new episodes a month on a theme of your

2291
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:27,520
Speaker 4: choosing with me and Caitlin, as well as back catalog

2292
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:29,160
Speaker 4: going back.

2293
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:32,400
Speaker 2: Like eight years, So a couple hundred episodes for your enjoyment,

2294
01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 2: all for five dollars a month, a price that we

2295
01:57:35,200 --> 01:57:37,240
Speaker 2: might add has never ever changed.

2296
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:41,040
Speaker 3: What a damn good special. Yeah, damn good with that.

2297
01:57:41,400 --> 01:57:43,960
Speaker 3: Should we all get on a train to Reno and

2298
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:45,360
Speaker 3: drink a bunch of champagne?

2299
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:47,879
Speaker 4: Oh honest, yeah, that sounds perfect.

2300
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:50,040
Speaker 6: Honey, Let's divorce from Patriots.

2301
01:57:50,120 --> 01:57:53,800
Speaker 7: Let's say yes, Let's get a divorce from the patriotchy

2302
01:57:54,480 --> 01:57:56,360
Speaker 7: Bye bye.

2303
01:57:58,840 --> 01:58:02,040
Speaker 1: The Bechdel Cast is a pretty action of iHeartMedia, hosted

2304
01:58:02,080 --> 01:58:04,480
Speaker 1: and produced by me Jamie Loftus and.

2305
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:09,320
Speaker 3: Me Kitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

2306
01:58:09,120 --> 01:58:12,520
Speaker 1: And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of them? That's

2307
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:15,920
Speaker 1: me and our logo and merch and all of our

2308
01:58:16,000 --> 01:58:19,720
Speaker 1: artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus ever heard

2309
01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:22,960
Speaker 1: of her? Oh My God, and our theme song, by

2310
01:58:23,000 --> 01:58:25,880
Speaker 1: the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by

2311
01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:30,040
Speaker 1: Katherine Voskrasinski Iconic and a special thanks to the one

2312
01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:32,120
Speaker 1: and only Aristotle Asceveo.

2313
01:58:32,640 --> 01:58:36,400
Speaker 3: For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree, slash

2314
01:58:36,440 --> 01:58:37,240
Speaker 3: Spcdelcast