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Speaker 1: Whole Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People did cool stuff. I'm

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Speaker 2: your host, Margaret Kiljoy.

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Speaker 1: That was a really good deep breath. I just have

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Speaker 1: to compliment you.

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Speaker 2: He's great. I've been working on my deep breaths.

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Speaker 1: God.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if it makes people think I'm not doing drugs.

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Speaker 2: I'm not even saying that, like it's not a wink

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Speaker 2: and a whatever. I think people know that I'm too

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Speaker 2: boring to do drugs. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, whose

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Speaker 2: last name is totally kind of related to the fact

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Speaker 2: that I don't do drugs. But my guest for this

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Speaker 2: podcast is Chelsea Weber Smith. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great and I'm I'm really happy to learn

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Speaker 1: the second half of this story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because well okay, wait, First, Sophie is a producer,

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Speaker 2: Hi Sophie, and Ian is our audio engineer, Hi Ian,

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Speaker 2: Hi Ian. I am on women did their theme music.

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Speaker 2: And this is part two of a two parter. If

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Speaker 2: this is the first time you're listening to this podcast,

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Speaker 2: then I guess that's news to you. But everyone else

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Speaker 2: knows that this podcast is usually two partters on Mondays

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Speaker 2: and Wednesdays, since today is Wednesday. Whenever you're listening is

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Speaker 2: honorarily Wednesday. If you ever, like man, I wish it

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Speaker 2: was just the middle of a week. You just put

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Speaker 2: on an episode of cool People with cool stuff, and

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Speaker 2: it's either Monday or Wednesday. Everyone's two favorite days historically.

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Speaker 2: What was I talking about. I'm off script. I'm lost

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Speaker 2: in the wilderness.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to do what you were going to

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Speaker 1: read the script of your podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's right, because I'm a podcaster. So this is

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Speaker 2: part two. We are talking about the Deal Pickle Club,

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Speaker 2: and what we talked about last time was some of

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Speaker 2: the people who started it, including a man who could fuck,

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Speaker 2: and also Hobohemia and why Margaret doesn't like that name,

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Speaker 2: even though I'm sure the people who were involved in

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Speaker 2: it thought it was the cleverest thing in the world.

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Speaker 2: But overall they're pretty cool. So we'll let that one slide. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the Dill Pickle Club. As always, when a group of

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Speaker 2: people try to do a thing, and they do a

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Speaker 2: thing together, history tries really hard to only remember one guy.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel like half of my research is

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Speaker 2: being like whenever, like and this was run by this guy,

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Speaker 2: and you're like Okay, who else did it? Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: actually appears.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding.

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Speaker 2: A whole crew of people founded the Dill Pickle Club,

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Speaker 2: and they were all wobbles. Jack Jones and Jim Larkin

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Speaker 2: are the two that historians can verify directly with a

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Speaker 2: long list of potential co founders. Besides, some of them

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Speaker 2: were poets and playwrights, most were soapboxers from bug House Square,

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Speaker 2: our favorite Irish goth labor organizer, Mother Jones, is often

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Speaker 2: listed as a co founder or like people who are talking.

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Speaker 2: When Picklers talk about the founders, they often mentioned Mother Jones.

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Speaker 2: There's actually no evidence for this, sadly.

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Speaker 1: Was it like an inspo, like she was like an

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Speaker 1: honorary founder because of what she'd already done. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Probably people were just like, oh, she's so cool, she's

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Speaker 2: like the founder, you know, I mean I would that founder. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this podcast was actually founded by not the magazine Mother Jones,

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Speaker 2: but the the goth Irish socialist who I actually disagree

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Speaker 2: with on a bunch of minor bullshit from one hundred

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Speaker 2: years ago. That she was part of it, I'm not so.

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Speaker 2: Actually she listened to her opinion and not mine, uh

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Speaker 2: for everyone?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly in the town square.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we would have been debating in Buckhouse Square. I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you what, No, I would have just left with

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Speaker 2: my tail between my legs. I mean, like your mother.

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Speaker 2: Jones had good feet. Yeah, yeah, Jack Jones. He is

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Speaker 2: often seen as the kingpin of the whole thing. And

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Speaker 2: he performed three tasks, well four. One of them is

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Speaker 2: that he was the owner on paper and I think

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Speaker 2: by the end he was often the guy right. But

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Speaker 2: he was the master of ceremonies. He was the sign

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Speaker 2: painter and like the set painter for a lot of

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Speaker 2: the plays. And he was the janitor. And you know what,

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Speaker 2: if you're gonna be in charge of a place, be

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Speaker 2: the fucking janitor too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he grew up Jack Jones grew up. It was

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Speaker 2: a good name. I gotta admit, hats off to this

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Speaker 2: American name. Yeah, he grew up poor as fuck. Like

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Speaker 2: most Wobbley's. He worked as a union miner. He was

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Speaker 2: a lifelong teetotaler for the classic reason of ain't no

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Speaker 2: way I'm going to turn out like my dad, which

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Speaker 2: I think that Ben Rightman could have learned from that lesson.

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Speaker 2: But you know whatever. But he had another hobby. He

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Speaker 2: had a lot of hobbies. He was like a hobby guy.

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Speaker 2: One of his hobbies was dynamite. Not like, wow, it

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Speaker 2: was great. I'm not using slang here, it was it

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Speaker 2: was the combination of nitro glistening saw the that he

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Speaker 2: was really excited about.

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Speaker 1: The red stick with the fuse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know exactly why he did ten years

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Speaker 2: in prison for arson, but I do know that at

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Speaker 2: least later he would get arrested for trying to dynamite

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Speaker 2: some of his bosses. So I suspect the arson charges

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Speaker 2: were not wildly dissimilar.

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Speaker 1: He's dynamite, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And so he's a union guy, likes not drinking, and

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Speaker 2: he likes using direct action to solve problems. When his

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Speaker 2: union joined the Wobblies. When the Wobblies were formed, he

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Speaker 2: was in. He was like fuck yeah. Although later he

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Speaker 2: followed some like twists and turns through various splits in

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Speaker 2: the movement that I don't really care to recount, because

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Speaker 2: what he's famous for is ignoring. He's not really famous

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Speaker 2: at all, But what he's known for is that he

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Speaker 2: ignored all those splits and brought everyone together at his

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Speaker 2: club regardless of like what flavor of leftist or whatever

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Speaker 2: you are. Respect Yeah. He was also famous for his

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Speaker 2: ruined left hand, and rumors abounded. The main two contenders

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Speaker 2: was that it was damaged while he was breaking into

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Speaker 2: safes with nitroglycerin, or that he had been making bombs

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Speaker 2: with the IWW's underground Sabotage Division. The historian I read

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Speaker 2: was like, and these were probably not true, because after all,

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Speaker 2: he was poor, and what kind of safe cracker ends

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Speaker 2: up poor? And I'm like most of most of them.

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Speaker 1: That's like a very big jump in the logic there are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the IWW absolutely had an underground sabotage division.

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Speaker 2: He got arrested for that shit sometimes so and he

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Speaker 2: also did nothing to discourage the rumors. He I think

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Speaker 2: it's because he did those things or power to him.

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Speaker 2: He was a sober bookworm who is outgoing but always

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Speaker 2: kept kept a part of himself reserved. He was a

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Speaker 2: dreamer and a schemer. He was the kind of person

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Speaker 2: who's always trying out some new invention or idea. Right Like,

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Speaker 2: he's like the classic I swear I'm gonna build a

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Speaker 2: car from scratch and drive it off from the sunset.

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Speaker 2: Guy got it that classic trope that totally.

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Speaker 1: Exists, and I didn't just make up I know what

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Speaker 1: you mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, totally like and this led him down

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Speaker 2: some dark paths. Unfortunately, he and his second wife built

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Speaker 2: a boat in the backyard and they took it out

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Speaker 2: for their honeymoon and it was wrecked by a storm

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Speaker 2: and he nearly drowned and his wife did drown.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Had a hard fucking life. Yeah, he spent a long

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Speaker 2: time in prison. He was broke as shit. His first

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Speaker 2: wife was far more famous than him, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn,

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Speaker 2: far more famous than very specific circles. She was a

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Speaker 2: communist and one of the founders of the American Civil

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Speaker 2: Liberties Union. But by the time she did, like anything

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Speaker 2: that she's famous for, she had already left him for

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Speaker 2: being boring, and before he started the Dill Pickle Club,

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Speaker 2: She's like, man, you're kind of boring, And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what kind of life do you lead where this man? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but he like at one point they'd been married for

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Speaker 2: a while and they were like going around doing labor organizing,

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Speaker 2: and he's like, why don't you like move in with

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Speaker 2: me and we could like have a life, And she's like, Nah,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't sound good. So she leaves him.

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Speaker 1: Hey whatever, just sounds like a mismatch of needs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Neither of them bury each other. Bad blood. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So that's one of the founders. The other guy, Jim Larkin,

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Speaker 2: and he's the guy who named the club. He was

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Speaker 2: going for something that screamed working class and he was

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Speaker 2: a leftist of a completely different origin. He was an

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Speaker 2: Irish Republican, like one of the people who helped Ireland

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Speaker 2: not be part of England anymore. He was an irishman

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Speaker 2: born dirt poor in England who organized doc workers there.

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Speaker 2: And there's a connection I got really excited about when

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Speaker 2: I realized all history is a web. He's a syndicalist,

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Speaker 2: you know, a way of organizing people, organizing dock workers,

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Speaker 2: Irish dockworkers in the nineteen hundreds, and this led to

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Speaker 2: the solidarity between Irish and Jewish communities that smashed the

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Speaker 2: ever loving shit out of British fascism in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 2: which you can hear about under episodes of the Battle

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Speaker 2: of Cable Street.

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Speaker 1: Cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Jim Larkin. Yeah, he went from England to

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Speaker 2: Ireland and traveled around a bunch of Ireland and he

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Speaker 2: formed syndicalist unions among dockworkers. There he formed the Irish

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Speaker 2: Labor Party alongside future friend of the Pod James Connolly,

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Speaker 2: who's one of the main Irish Republican theorists that sparked

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Speaker 2: the Irish independence movement, and he was executed for his

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Speaker 2: role in the nineteen sixteen Easter Rising, which I is

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Speaker 2: like close to Roman Empire for me, Like I mean,

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Speaker 2: actually Roman Empire is like nothing. I never think about

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Speaker 2: the fucking Roman Empire, besides the fact that they couldn't

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Speaker 2: get near Ireland because it was too scary. Jim Larkin

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Speaker 2: our guy, not the not James Connelly. He also for

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Speaker 2: the Irish Citizen Army. Well actually he was him and Connolly,

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Speaker 2: but whatever, Conny's not the part of the story. Jim

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Speaker 2: Larkin formed the Irish Citizen's Army, a labor militia that

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Speaker 2: joined the Easter Rising. They fought for the principle that

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Speaker 2: quote the ownership of Ireland moral and material is vested

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Speaker 2: of right in the people of Ireland and to quote

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Speaker 2: sink all difference of birth, property and creed under the

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Speaker 2: common name of the Irish people. Then East Rising hasn't

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Speaker 2: happened yet. His friend and a co organizer hasn't died yet.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen fourteen, there's like this big labor thing that

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into in Ireland and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't go great, and like he just burned the fuck out,

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Speaker 2: and he's like, I'm get out of here. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: go to America for a while. And people are like,

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Speaker 2: you're ditching us, and he's like, whatever, I'm burned out.

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Speaker 2: I'm going. Yeah. Probably why he survived, unfortunately, And so

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Speaker 2: he goes to America nineteen fourteen and he travels around

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Speaker 2: and he's speaking to syndicalis and to Irish Americans about

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Speaker 2: how World War One is bad and the Irish shouldn't

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Speaker 2: fight and die for the fucking British, but instead they

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Speaker 2: should fight the British directly or to quote him directly

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Speaker 2: because it rules, and he had away with words. Quote

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Speaker 2: what has Britain ever done for our people? Whatever we

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Speaker 2: got from her, we rested with struggle and sacrifice. No,

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Speaker 2: men and women of the Irish race, we shall not

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Speaker 2: fight for England. We shall fight for the destruction of

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Speaker 2: the British Empire and the construction of an Irish republic.

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Speaker 2: We shall not fight for the preservation of the enemy,

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Speaker 2: which has laid waste, with death and desolation the fields

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Speaker 2: and hills of Ireland for seven hundred years. We shall

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Speaker 2: fight to free Ireland from the grasp of the vile

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Speaker 2: carcass called England.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, yeah, that's poetry, maybe, I know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, here's what I actually think about. Once a week.

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Speaker 2: I think about the fact that Ireland was colonized for

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Speaker 2: more than seven hundred years before it won its freedom

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Speaker 2: and started the decolonization process. And as an American, and

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Speaker 2: I was told that it's too late for decolonization here right.

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Speaker 2: I was told that it's been five hundred years, get

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Speaker 2: over it. The Irish didn't get the fuck over it,

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Speaker 2: and like they still haven't totally won, but like decolonization

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Speaker 2: is still a possibility and is not over. I think

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Speaker 2: about that once a week.

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Speaker 1: At least, I'm going to think about that once a week.

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Speaker 2: And then I got like lost how to talk, think

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Speaker 2: about how to say it, you know, because I'm like, ah,

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Speaker 2: what is it? Anyway? But he had trouble making friends

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Speaker 2: in the US. Jim Larkin. He shows up in the

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Speaker 2: US and he's like, yeah, I'm gonna talk to the

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Speaker 2: Irish Americans and the Irish Americans are like, we're with

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Speaker 2: you on hate in the British, but you're a fucking commy,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, you're a socialist. We're kind of shitty

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Speaker 2: and right wing here. And then he'd go talk to

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Speaker 2: the socialists and they'd be like, wait, you're Catholic and

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Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, what, why is that a problem? So

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Speaker 2: he had a hard time in the US. Yeah, even

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Speaker 2: though he was more of a traditional state communist than

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Speaker 2: an anarchist. He got arrested for criminal anarchy in nineteen

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Speaker 2: nineteen during the first Red Scare. He defended himself in

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Speaker 2: court there's your Bingo Square listener, and in court he

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Speaker 2: was like, look, I believe in Bolshevism, Catholicism, syndicalism, in

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Speaker 2: Irish nationalism. What's so hard about that? Why is this wrong?

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Speaker 2: He was convicted. He was sent to sing Sing prison

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Speaker 2: in New York, where the strange anarchist superstar Charlie Chaplin

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Speaker 2: visited him, like the most famous man in the world

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Speaker 2: at that point. Probably he was deported in nineteen twenty three.

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Speaker 2: He goes back to Ireland and he winds up with

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Speaker 2: a mixed legacy in Irish politics. He starts by working

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Speaker 2: closely with the USSR, and then he realizes what most

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Speaker 2: people eventually realize, which is that Stalin is a fuck

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Speaker 2: who didn't let anyone think for himself, and his like

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Speaker 2: Catholic syndicalism does not play with Bolshevism in the end,

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Speaker 2: and does not play with Stalinism in the end, and

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Speaker 2: the Catholic Church weren't really fond of his communism. He

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Speaker 2: is a man between worlds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard, I know.

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Speaker 2: But he lived good, long life, doing amazing things. He

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Speaker 2: died a working class death. He was overseen some repairs

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Speaker 2: on a building when he fell through the floor at

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Speaker 2: seventy three years old. Oh and like died from his

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Speaker 2: injuries like a little bit later. And he had a

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Speaker 2: big Catholic funeral, And there's a statue of him in

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Speaker 2: Dublin and has one of his sickest quotes, the greats

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Speaker 2: appear great because we are on our knees, let us rise.

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Speaker 1: That is good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Has a wow fucking poet, Yeah yeah. And some

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Speaker 2: of that might come from the fact that he was

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Speaker 2: basically bullied into writing poetry at the Dope Pickle Club.

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Speaker 1: Oh, nothing like getting bullied into writing poems that's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing.

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Speaker 2: Everyone who is there was like suddenly kind of forced

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Speaker 2: to be a poet. You know.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I will tell you I did go to grad

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Speaker 1: school for poetry.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I'm also here to your poetry, your poetry, train opera

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Speaker 1: guy too many here?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, elly, yeah, I wrote more poetry back when I

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Speaker 2: wrote trains.

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Speaker 1: Hey. Yeah, yeah, they go hand in hand. Yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: just living life, man, you're in the moment. I know.

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Speaker 2: What I wish I had done is listen to my

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Speaker 2: father's advice, which was, right, write a journal, because I

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Speaker 2: was like, how could I I'm never gonna forget this.

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Speaker 2: This is the most amazing thing. Like how I'm never

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Speaker 2: gonna remember half that shit. I don't remember a third

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Speaker 2: of that shit I have.

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Speaker 1: I think I have some journal I have journals. I

295
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Speaker 1: was a journaler, but it wasn't like here was what

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Speaker 1: I did today. So it's just like scraps of like

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Speaker 1: crazy shit whatever. I'm thinking, Well, I'm just doing yeah,

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Speaker 1: just the most dangerous behavior.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, that's that's what I have. But my

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Speaker 2: father's a big advocate of like literally or like today

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Speaker 2: I did the following three things.

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Speaker 1: Now, I do wish I would have done that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I really do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, he is famous, and none of his fame

305
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Speaker 2: is for running a social club in Chicago. I did

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Speaker 2: not mention find any mention of the Dull Pickle Club

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Speaker 2: and anything else I read about him except I've never

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Speaker 2: read a full biography of him or something though, just

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Speaker 2: articles and stuff, except for the book about the Dull

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Speaker 2: Pickle Club, where it talks about his involvement a lot,

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Speaker 2: because he's one of the founders and he's one of

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Speaker 2: the first people there before he's deported for criminal anarchy.

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Speaker 2: And I think it matters because people tend to see

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Speaker 2: cultural and political stuffs like two distinct spheres. But the

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Speaker 2: people who are like doing it, don't you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can be a poet and a revolutionist. You could

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Speaker 2: be an actor and a revolutionist. You can have a

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Speaker 2: cool hipster club where you talk about need ideas and

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Speaker 2: still try to overthrow capitalism and direct in material ways

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Speaker 2: and along the way people revolutionize culture. People who actually

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Speaker 2: just set out to revolutionized culture rarely do. So it

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Speaker 2: comes it comes from great passion. People see these like

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Speaker 2: art and cultural movements and just imitate the aesthetics without

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Speaker 2: seeing underneath, and you wind up with like a pale imitation.

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Speaker 2: I would argue that jazz mattered because it came from

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Speaker 2: black struggle, and so people pick up on the like

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Speaker 2: aesthetic of it and run with it, but they don't

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Speaker 2: have that heart, and it's hollow, you know, it's.

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Speaker 1: Like slumming and yeah, the jazz clubs kind of yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, which was so popular, which also but then

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Speaker 1: that was also so important because without the sort of

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Speaker 1: racial mixing that occurred through those relationships, it's just, yeah,

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Speaker 1: history is complicated, and I do think that's like the

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Speaker 1: most important thing to get across. Every moment is as

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Speaker 1: complicated as the one ran.

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Speaker 2: No totally, and I think that it's like so it

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Speaker 2: becomes less about being like cultures must stay distinct and

338
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Speaker 2: more like what is the heart of this thing? You know?

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Speaker 2: And like how can people who yeah, no, I know and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like how do you hold up the heart of

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Speaker 1: the thing while still contributing your own? Yeah, it's it's big.

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Speaker 1: These are big quess These are like the questions artists

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Speaker 1: have been asking time immemorial.

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Speaker 2: It's true. Yeah, And they could have asked them at

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Speaker 2: the Dope Pickle Club and then people would have heckled them.

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Speaker 2: Those are the two known founders. There's there were more

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Speaker 2: and just knowing sure. But there's one figure who is

348
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Speaker 2: prominent through its entire heyday, the guy we talked about earlier,

349
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Speaker 2: the fuck boy hobo doctor Ben Ightman. He wasn't there

350
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Speaker 2: at the start, but he's around soon enough. By nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 2: he's around on the scene and he is working his

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Speaker 2: pr magic on the place. He's talking to journalists, he's

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Speaker 2: getting people there, and he's turning it into a thing.

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Speaker 2: He turns it from a like from a place where

355
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Speaker 2: some wobblies argue about politics to like this like cultural

356
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Speaker 2: hub that changes Chicago's understanding of the world. This includes

357
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 2: bringing out highbrow folks to mingle, but he actually worked

358
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Speaker 2: really hard to make sure he stayed working class. And

359
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Speaker 2: he like it was a place for the low life.

360
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Speaker 2: You know, you could come slum, but it wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to be yours, you know, which makes sense. He's the

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Speaker 2: hobo doctor. He knows how to run in the upper class,

363
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Speaker 2: but he is like, yeah, not an upper classman. The homeless,

364
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Speaker 2: the unemployed, drifters, and therefore a lot of disabled folks

365
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,360
Speaker 2: were a huge part of the clientele. To quote historian

366
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Speaker 2: Franklin Rosemont, who wrote the book on the Dope Pickle Club.

367
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Speaker 2: It was Reitman, more than anyone else, who perfected the

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Speaker 2: definitive and wonderful, wonderfully improbable dill pickle mix that brought

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Speaker 2: together wobblies and opera stars, poets and scientists, professors and prostitutes,

370
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Speaker 2: hoboes and psychoanalysts, con men and crack pots. And as

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Speaker 2: for when they started it, no one actually knows when

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Speaker 2: they started it. But you know what, also, well, actually

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Speaker 2: a capitalism started with the enclosure of the commons in England.

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Speaker 2: I would feel I was going to do an ad

375
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Speaker 2: transition about no one knows when ads started. I bet

376
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Speaker 2: there's I bet you, I bet there's old handbills from

377
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 2: the Roman Empire, oh yeah, with ads on them. But

378
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Speaker 2: I wouldn't know because I've never seen the TV show Room, Sophie,

379
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 2: were their ads in rom Sophie said, yes, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think about the Roman Empire.

381
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Speaker 2: Sorry, no, I'm talking about the TV show. I definitely

382
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 2: don't think about the TV show. Yeah, I've never seen it. Well,

383
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 2: but you know what I am gonna see or listen

384
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 2: to or buy whatever comes after the end of the

385
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Speaker 2: sentence and we're back.

386
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Speaker 1: Thanks.

387
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 2: I enjoy the scene now where I can push this.

388
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Speaker 1: Really beautiful transition, natural as anything.

389
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Speaker 2: So the most likely start date is nineteen fourteen, but

390
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 2: some people say it is nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen, whatever,

391
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. It's the kind of thing that looking

392
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: back doesn't really matter. I'm sure it matters, but doesn't

393
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 2: matter to me. It probably started in late autumn, which

394
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: lines up with when Jim Larkin came from Ireland. And

395
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: it probably started as a way for soapboxers to get

396
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 2: to be able to keep doing their thing during the winter. Right.

397
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 2: It's hard a soapbox in a Chicago Winner, which you'll

398
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 2: change in probably about another ten years or so, when

399
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 2: Winner is a vague memory. So that's we have that

400
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 2: to look forward to. It probably started the Dill Pickle Club,

401
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: probably started way too seriously. It was like a labor

402
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: forum in a tea room called the Copper Kettle and

403
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: the Dill Pickle, which is too long, if anyone's listening,

404
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 2: that's too long. It was only open on weekends to start,

405
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 2: and then in nineteen seventeen the landlord raised the rent

406
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 2: and then it moved to its real home eighteen Tucker Alley.

407
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: At this point it stopped being a clubhouse only for

408
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 2: Wobbles and their friends and started to become a bonafide

409
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 2: social club and cultural cornerstone. It was in a barn

410
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: in the alley, which is a thing that does not

411
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Speaker 2: make sense in my modern conception of how cities work,

412
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: but it was. It was a barn in an alley.

413
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: Over the years, they bought a bunch of other barns

414
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: and like hauled them over and like constantly rearranged the

415
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: whole place by sticking all the things together in different

416
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 2: ways whenever they like got bored, I guess, and it

417
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 2: it seems like it would be a hole in the wall,

418
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,239
Speaker 2: right of everything that we're going to be describing as

419
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 2: place in a barn in an alley. The main lecture

420
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: hall held seven hundred people.

421
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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, oh okay.

422
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,959
Speaker 2: I suspect that it was not like a lot of

423
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 2: like fire code enforcement no in nineteen seventeen.

424
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Speaker 1: Sitting on a lot of hay bales just waiting to

425
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Speaker 1: erect in play.

426
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Speaker 2: Yeah, this could have gone real different this story. The

427
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: entrance to the alley had a green light. I believe

428
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: it is green like a Pickle. I think that's the idea.

429
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: And then the building itself had two notable signs on

430
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: the outside on its orange door lit by another green light,

431
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 2: which sounds garish as fuck. And I think that this

432
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: sign is literally like just giant letters carved into the

433
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: entire door, but I'm not sure. There's no photos of this,

434
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: and there's like some illustrations that I've seen. It says

435
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 2: step high, stoop low, and leave your dignity outside. Well yeah,

436
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: and then once you were in the entryway, the next

437
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: sign said, elevate your mind to a lower level of thinking.

438
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: Great.

439
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

440
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: It's great chaos energy, Yeah.

441
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. The single most characteristic thing about the Dill

442
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: Pickle Club was the diversity of its clientele. Those who

443
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: started it and ran it. We're working class leftist revolutionaries

444
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: of a mix of different ideological positions. The people who

445
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: showed up were all sorts, and ideas of all sorts

446
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: were allowed. Atheists debated, breakaway Catholics debated, the spiritualists, Buddhists

447
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: and hindu spoke regularly. It was queer friendly and multi racial,

448
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: when both of those things were far from the norm

449
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: in the US. This is decades before wase you pointed

450
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: out you know more actually about this period than I do.

451
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 2: But I'm saying this is decades before there's a recognizable

452
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: LGBT rights movement in the US. Definitely, Yeah, And it

453
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 2: comes just after the peak of white labor. The white

454
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: labor movements like racism problem, which I want to say

455
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: like peaked in like probably the eighteen nineties nineteen oughts.

456
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: IWW had a lot of success by being like you

457
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: fucking bullshit racists. Look, we're organizing all the different like

458
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: people of color, and like, you know, we actually rule anyway.

459
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: For a long time, it was the only integrated club

460
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 2: on the North Side of Chicago. They had talks by

461
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 2: black presenters with names like Jazz, the Hope of the Nation,

462
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: and Moorish Contributions to present civilization. Folks from all over

463
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: the world came to present about their experiences and lives.

464
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: If you're an immigrant from anywhere in the world, you'd

465
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: come and talk about like here's where it's like where

466
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: I'm from. You know. Birth control was discussed openly, despite

467
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: people going to jail for talking about it at the time. Right.

468
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 2: Magnus Hirschfeld, probably the single most influential figure in LGBT history. Honestly,

469
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: I haven't come up with a competing person who had

470
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 2: more of an impact. He's a guy who ran the

471
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: gender clinic in pre Nazi Germany. He came and he

472
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: spoke there in nineteen thirty one and it was the

473
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: largest crowd the club have ever gathered in its history.

474
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: Wow.

475
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: The Catholic anarchist Dorothy Day, who later founded the Catholic

476
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 2: Worker Movement, was a regular there, and I think an organizer.

477
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 2: And this is before she like I'm like, I don't

478
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: know as much about her yet as I want to,

479
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 2: but like it was before she like got really Catholic

480
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 2: and she was just like a hard drinking journalist. People

481
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: talked about political issues, religious issues, cultural issues, art, everything.

482
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: There were lectures on every conceivable topic from Cesarean sections

483
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: to physics. Probably the first discussions of surrealism and Chicago

484
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: were held there. Like the guy who maybe found the

485
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: North Pole, there is this big dumb fight. This actually

486
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: seems like the kind of thing that you heard this

487
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: Like there's like two different guys who were like I

488
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: found the North Pole. No, I found the North Pole.

489
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: I have not heard about those.

490
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: Like the guy who claims that he did it first,

491
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: who probably didn't. He came and gave a talk about

492
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: finding the North Pole and shit, you know.

493
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: Again, chaos energy. Yeah, it all in there, see what happens.

494
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, The New York Tribune was like trying to talk shit,

495
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 2: so they referred to its client until they said it

496
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: quote equally attended by North Shore Society leaders, pickpockets, morons,

497
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: soapbox theists, University of Chicago professors, and derelicts of all kinds.

498
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: They just made it sound cool.

499
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: I know. Yeah, Jack Jones, the janitor said, quote more

500
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: famous people in all lines of creative work have passed

501
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 2: through the Dill Pickle than through any fifty universities in

502
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: the world. But they also like, you couldn't no matter

503
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: how like famous and what respected you are, like, you

504
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: are like the same as everyone else, and you're gonna

505
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: get Apparently the Heckler's like waited until you were done

506
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 2: and then heckled you.

507
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: Well that's nice. I know.

508
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 2: There was a Dill Pickle gallery of art on the

509
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: walls because apparently you could pay your debt to the

510
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: house of the painting.

511
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I love this play. I know.

512
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: It was ostensibly a tea house and you could get

513
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: cheap sandwiches and all kinds of non alcoholic drinks there.

514
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: I've read different accounts of whether or not the mob

515
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: muscled in in the twenties and started to serve alcohol.

516
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 2: I know that they tried. I currently leaned towards they

517
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: didn't succeed, But I'll talk about that more later as

518
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: we talk about the end of it. But no one

519
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: was coming there for the food or the drinks. People

520
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: came to feel like they were part of something and

521
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: to discuss the issues of the day. Like imagine if

522
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: Twitter was like a good.

523
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: Place, you know, yeah, imagine that.

524
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: Not even in the like like this is better than

525
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: pre elon Twitter.

526
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, right, better than threads. Yeah yeah, sorry, Zuck, yeah.

527
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, just please fight it out and both both die.

528
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: Uh legally. Some of the okay, some of the debates

529
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: that they had were like formal debates, like that whole

530
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: fucking thing that I don't understand because I wasn't on

531
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: my high school debate team. But one of the things

532
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: that they would do is they have these formal debates

533
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: where like the Hoboes and Wobblies, which is like school

534
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: university debate teams on a regular basis, debate teams started

535
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: showing up just to watch it happen and take notes

536
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: from the rail riding union organizers about how to fucking debate.

537
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: Wow, it's probably because they actually had passion and yeah,

538
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, weren't just reading from some boring ass dissertation. Totally,

539
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: that's how you got to do it. You got to

540
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: hide the medicine, that's what we say. You got to

541
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: be exciting, you gotta be fun. That gets dangerous too. Yeah, charisma, No,

542
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: it's true, and like yeah, no, And I feel like

543
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: they avoided a lot of the like Star Warship thing

544
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: by having like a ton of.

545
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: Characters. You know, you'd go there and it wouldn't be

546
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: just to see Ben Rightman speak or Jack Jones or

547
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: Lucy Parsons or any of these people everyone, and you

548
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: could go be a character, you know, you could like

549
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: build an identity and build a like culture. And I

550
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: don't know.

551
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: You know what. It kind of makes me think of

552
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: as like it's some kind of like political vaudeville. It's

553
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: like yeah, I don't know, yeah, which is also huge

554
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: at this time. Totally, it makes sense that there were

555
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: like some cultural exchange, like in terms of structure happening there.

556
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, and also and we talk about

557
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: the medicine that has to go down. It was a

558
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: free speech and debate and exchange of ideas for him, right,

559
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: but it was tinged with humor and everything was like

560
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: kind of stand up comedy ish on some level. There's

561
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: one category of people who you actually could go there

562
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: if you want it and be like, I'm going to

563
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: go advocate for law and order or fascism or like

564
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: like anything. Like at one point someone was like, I

565
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: guess you could go there and argue for misogyny. Everyone

566
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:01,239
Speaker 2: would just tear you apart, you know overall, And I

567
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: wish I knew more about how they made this happen.

568
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: It was a free speech zone, like a literal actual one,

569
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: where the people who didn't want to use it were

570
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: the authoritarians, fascists, stalinists, cops and organized criminals largely stayed clear.

571
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, okay.

572
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: And like I don't know, I I like want to

573
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: know how they threaded that needle, you know, yeah, yeah,

574
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: because now you have like the people who are like

575
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: debate me are like bad people.

576
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, yeah I do.

577
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if it's because like, if your debate

578
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: cannot be televised, you know, there's no way for you

579
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: to like gather a complacent, distant audience. Like everyone is

580
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: there feeling the energy of people being like you're a

581
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: ideas suck, you know.

582
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

583
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did way more than debates and whatever. They

584
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: every Saturday night were dances and the orchestra was whatever

585
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: musicians were in the house that night.

586
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: Oh I love it. Yeah, what a place.

587
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: People came as we cant to talk about this before,

588
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: but it's in my script, so I'm going forward with it.

589
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: People also came to be around the sort of characters

590
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: of a sort we don't have as much today. On

591
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: some episode or another we talked about Emperor Norton and

592
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: the San Francisco characters. Have you heard of Emperor Norton?

593
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: I haven't.

594
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: Oh. He was this guy who like may or may

595
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: not have been homeless, who declared himself the Emperor of

596
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: the United States and Mexico and like wrote pardons and

597
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: laws and shit, and was like actually this like anti

598
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: racist crusader and organizer. But he was just this guy

599
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: in nineteenth century San Francisco.

600
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: It's a character.

601
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Chicago had its own characters, right, some of the

602
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: founders of the place were some of these characters. A

603
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: ton of the people who were the characters didn't make

604
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: their way into their history books. And so there's all

605
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: these like the Surfesser who didn't actually seem interesting enough

606
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: to really include in my script much, Martha Biegler and

607
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Davis, who I don't know anything about. You know,

608
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: we'd be like, holy shit, we're going in Martha. Martha

609
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: Biegler's there, you know. And and it was a place

610
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: where a neurodivergence was celebrated as a strength by having

611
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: this sort of like character based thing because it wasn't

612
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: let's go make fun of these people, you know, mm hmm.

613
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: A ton of the Chicago poets started hanging out there

614
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 2: as teenagers while they were still in high school. A

615
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: ton of high school students went there because it wasn't

616
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: a bar and the food was cheap.

617
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: So there you go.

618
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: It's the place to be. It's like the mall, I know, right,

619
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: if the mall was like the crazy awesome place like yeah,

620
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: like yeah, like imagine just like dropping off your kid

621
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: being like have fun at the Big the Big Pickle.

622
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: It's the dual pickle, Mom, Yeah, and leave the carriage

623
00:33:54,160 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: or whatever. Yeah, okay, yeah, well you're not too anarchists

624
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: for me to give you enough money for one of

625
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: those sandwiches, are you no?

626
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: Mom?

627
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 2: They sometimes put on three plays a week at this place.

628
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: Sunday night was like play night, but sometimes up to

629
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: three night plays a week. For a while, they were

630
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: the most active small theater in the city. I think

631
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: small theater is like a specific designation of a type

632
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: of theater. But I I think it's the equivalent of

633
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: off Broadway but for other cities or in the nineteen

634
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 2: twenties or something, I don't know, it had its own troop.

635
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: They put on all the big name plays, but they

636
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: also put on plays from local play rights and and

637
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 2: then music nights. They ranged from hobo songs to operate

638
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: a jazz to Eastern European folk music. And it's heyday

639
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: was like nineteen seventeen to like the mid to late

640
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties. Jack Jones the ringleader and janitor. He got

641
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: arrested more and more in connection to running the place,

642
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: and the cops fucking hated this place. And as for

643
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: how it fell apart, I guess it. Well, it depends

644
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: on who you ask. For example, if you were to

645
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: ask Sophie, Sophie would say now is the time to

646
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: do ads, and then it doesn't actually even tie into

647
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 2: what I was saying, is just an awkward ad transition,

648
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: which is what you come here for. Why why won't

649
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: you just leave me in peace? Why must I always

650
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: do these ad transitions? Even if you subscribe to cooler

651
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: zone media, then you get the best of both worlds,

652
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: because I still have to performatively describe the anti capitalist

653
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 2: struggle with running a platform that has ads, But then

654
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 2: you don't have to listen to the ads. It really

655
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: is just the best thing you can I good, here's

656
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: the ads, and we're back. So by the late nineteen twenties,

657
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: there's like a bunch of copycats. And it's funny because

658
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: like if you read some of the people talking about

659
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: like all these fucking poser clubs, like blah blah blah,

660
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: and then other people were like, like Ben rightman is like

661
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: it's great other people are doing it now. Isn't that

662
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: the point? You know? Because he's just like, yeah, actually

663
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: earnestly excited about it. But then he actually lists which

664
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: of the copycats are, like good and which ones of

665
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: our like total poser clubs that.

666
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: Suck you know, nothing changes, I know.

667
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 2: I know. And some of them are like more specialized ares,

668
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 2: ones that are actually speak easies, you know, and all

669
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: these different things. But yeah, it's model expanded across Chicago,

670
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: and once it was no longer the only game in town, like,

671
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: the culture started to change and some of the characters

672
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: went not were the people who would kind of go

673
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: and spin off their own clubs, you know. Most of

674
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: the others failed faster because a lot of them lacked

675
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 2: that heart that we're talking about where they actually come

676
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: from something. You know, because if someone random centrist or

677
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: right wing persons like, oh, I'm going to start my

678
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 2: new free speech for him, and you're like, oh, it's

679
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: gonna it can go terribly Yeah, you know, because it

680
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: goes to this theory that I have that I haven't

681
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: seen proven wrong yet, which is that new aesthetics are

682
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: new aesthetic ideas are pushed by radicals and freethinkers, and

683
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 2: then people copy the aesthetics, not the heart. I kind

684
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: of already mentioned this, but I just think about this

685
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: like this is another thing I think about it, probably

686
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: not once a week. This is a like intensely for

687
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 2: a week once a year. Is this type of thought

688
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: where like you pick a culture or a genre of

689
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 2: like fiction or music or living, and you can find

690
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: the like radical roots of it, and then and then

691
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: you see just the aesthetic is what is then packaged

692
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: and sold to people. You know.

693
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think drag is a really good example of

694
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: that too, because we just did a drag queen series

695
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: and starting around this time, Harlem Renaissance drag queens, you know,

696
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: co opted by hipsters, White hipsters suddenly slowly take over

697
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: the drag scene. You know. It's kind of a typical,

698
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: typical cycle that you're talking about.

699
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And it's like if you just see the like, yeah,

700
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: if you just see the aesthetic trappings, then you copy that,

701
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: because that's the easiest thing to figure out to copy,

702
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, as compared to like copying the like

703
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: way of thinking for yourself and like applying it to

704
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: your problems, which if you come from a different background,

705
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 2: will give you a different aesthetic result. But that's good.

706
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: We can create a beautiful, chaotic, lovely mess of culture

707
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 2: that I want to live in.

708
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like you want to have those things

709
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: passed down even if they're in copy form, which is

710
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: like unfortunate. But what's the alternative I guess is like

711
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: we adopt aesthetics and hopefully adopting those aesthetics leads us

712
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: back to their roots versus fighting against the aesthetic. Yeah,

713
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 1: it's complicated, No, that that makes sense.

714
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: I mean like yeah, look at punk, Like punk is

715
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: like a yeah, like I think two of the most obvious,

716
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 2: Like like anyone who doesn't know that punk and hip

717
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: hop both come from like real radical shit, like just

718
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: like really missed the memo because like it's like pretty

719
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: they're pretty forward about that, you know.

720
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a suburban kid's like, whoa, that's a

721
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: cool anarchist patch. What's that? Yeah, I don't know. It's

722
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: like okay, do that with your time? Good? Yeah?

723
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, you know you're right and that like sometimes

724
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: you can encapsulate the message into the aesthetics and like

725
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: lead people back to it, that's yeah.

726
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: And sometimes it destroys the whole things, yeah, you know,

727
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: different than different different strokes.

728
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: I guess whenever people are like I know the answer

729
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: to I have the solutions to things, and I'm like,

730
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: you clearly don't, because we haven't gotten out of this

731
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: mess yet, you know, like.

732
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not hanging out with you totally.

733
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, So the Dill Pickle Club by the mid

734
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: to late nineteen twenties, it's struggling and it is no

735
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: longer the like main happening place. And I suspect it

736
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: was never incredibly good at making money. I mean they

737
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: had they had the people showing up so clearly, you know,

738
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: and they did a and he had a lot of support.

739
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: But Jack Jones, he has nothing if not a schemer

740
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: and an optimist. He's the kind of guy who builds

741
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 2: a boat in his backyard while running a club that

742
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: he started after he blew off his messed up his

743
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: hand with nitroglycerin, you know. Yeah, And so he kept

744
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: like publishing papers that were like it's bigger and better

745
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 2: than ever, We're gonna have these like bold, new amazing things,

746
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: and it it just wasn't true anymore. And then like

747
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: the way he decided he was going to save the place.

748
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: This is the most this guy energy thing he's going

749
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: to do his entire life. He tries to market a

750
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 2: self walking Dill pickle duck toy.

751
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's great. I feel like this was the

752
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: era of like novelty like toys and pranks and stuff.

753
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: I just got a bunk about novelty toys that that's uh,

754
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: I bet that's what's happening here.

755
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: It's like the whoope cushion era.

756
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly like the Chattering Teeth. Yeah, those types of

757
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: just stupid bullshit that we love so much.

758
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he creates the do Dill Duck, which the

759
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: like rumor among picklers. I I'm not gonna give this

760
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: one too much credence that it was the inspiration for

761
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: Donald Duck. I mean, stranger things have happened, and Disney

762
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: was clearly all about robbing the public domain and then

763
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: putting it into the copyright. Yeah, but the do Dill

764
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: Duck didn't go anywhere despite being self walking. And let

765
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: me tell you, if your cafe is struggling, probably inventing

766
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: a duck isn't the way out of it. No, I

767
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: could have had a walking pickle.

768
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: What did it look like? Do we have like pictures

769
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: of this?

770
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 2: There's like some sketches. It's like kind of boxy.

771
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: It's what's it call again?

772
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: Do du dash d I l duck?

773
00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: Uh? Just see this sketch. Oh okay, so it's got

774
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: a like a little bit of that duck or the

775
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: little bird that dips its head into water vibe. That's

776
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: what it looks like to me. Yeah, you know what

777
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

778
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, the drinking duck that I think of from.

779
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: The drinks bird.

780
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah all right yeah. Although, actually, now that I've looked

781
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: this up, it claims that it was invented and copyrighted

782
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two by Jack Jones, The Picture of a Duck,

783
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: and it says, I walk with a shimmy and wiggle

784
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: my bill. I wobble my head to give young folks

785
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: a thrill. I'm just made of wood, but I'm sure

786
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: to bring luck to those who possess this ungainly old duck.

787
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: Nothing more thrilling than that duck.

788
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: I take back everything I said about being good to

789
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: force people to write poetry. No, it's a joke. I

790
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: think it's a great poem.

791
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: Was good.

792
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and okay. I've read a bunch of different versions

793
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: of how the Dill Pickle Club met its end, and

794
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: a lot of them are like, oh, you know, cycles

795
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: of hipsters and blah blah blah. I find one the

796
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: most convincing, and so that's the one I'm going to use.

797
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 2: And it is what Ben Rightman said happened. And basically

798
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: it's like, all right, Jack Jones, he hates alcohol, and

799
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 2: he's like real committed to his ethics, right, you don't

800
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: become a I mean, you don't live this guy's life

801
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: if you're not like willing to take some risks to

802
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: live by your ethics. You know. Yeah, And the mobsters

803
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: in the next neighborhood over are getting more and more

804
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: powerful as prohibition goes on, and they keep trying to

805
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:36,919
Speaker 2: muscle in on the place, and they want their guys

806
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: as waiters so they can do bootlegging and take a

807
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: cut of the action. And the only like argument is

808
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: whether or not they succeeded ever or not. You know.

809
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 2: But Jack Jones won't. He won't go for it. Either

810
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: it happens and he keeps fighting back or it doesn't

811
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: happen at all, And my money is didn't happen at all.

812
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: And he goes to the politicians he's like, you got

813
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: to protect me from the mafia, and they're like, we're

814
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: not going to fucking help you unless you bribe us.

815
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 2: It probably didn't.

816
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: Phrase you because the mafia will, you know, mafia takeover,

817
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: We'll make money yeaheah.

818
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. So he writes a five hundred dollars check

819
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: to a politician, but then his conscience wins out and

820
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: he stops payment on the check before it's cashed. So

821
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: the politicians who are probably in bed with the mafia.

822
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: Chicago is fucking notorious for this. They dredge up an

823
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: old law that a dance hall can't be within one

824
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: hundred feet of a church, and in nineteen thirty three

825
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 2: they shut it down.

826
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That sounds totally plausible.

827
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and like like literally the only because everything

828
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: else that I've read is like kind of vague, being like,

829
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: oh just kind of fell off the map, and you know,

830
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: the neighborhood is gentrified and or like, I don't know,

831
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: I find this the most convincing argument. Yeah, but it

832
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: left a hell of a legacy. It was the working

833
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: class under belly of what gets called the Chicago Renaissance,

834
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 2: which tends to focus instead on the like upper middle

835
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: class and such like that elements of it. And it

836
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: was just, you know, just huge cultural touchstone that started

837
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: with some working class revolutionaries from the mining camps and

838
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: from Ireland, atheistsyntheists, socialists and anarchists, poets and actors. And

839
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: I will say, so I close this out, there's one

840
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 2: place in my life that I've been to that feels

841
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: the closest to the dill pickle, and I just want

842
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: to shout them out. There's a worker cooperative bookstore and

843
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: cafe in Baltimore called Red Emma's.

844
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: I've been there. Yeah, sorry, I just randomly have been there.

845
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: No one time I went to Baltimore.

846
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: I was so cool there, absolutely, And what's cool is

847
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: the lineage is actually clear here. It is named after

848
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: Emma Goldman, who taught Ben Rightman everything he knew. Red

849
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 2: Emmas is a majority POC like POC owned radical space

850
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: where ideas all across the left are discs where people

851
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 2: go to just be. And it really kind of does

852
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: that magical stuff that cities do best. I say, this

853
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: is someone who doesn't live in a city anymore, but

854
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: there's like something specific about this, like way of creating

855
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: culture and like having characters and like bringing people together

856
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 2: that cities really do amazingly, and I think Red Emmas

857
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: does an amazing job of it. And I will say

858
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: also they sell books online, So if you want a

859
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: good place to get your books, you should go to

860
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: Redemas dot org and they have like an amazing selection.

861
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: And there's also like kind of another direct lineage in

862
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 2: that the Chicago surrealists Franklin Rosemont, who wrote the book

863
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: about the Dill Pickle Club, was actually a fairly I

864
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: actually checked with one of my friends who wrote red

865
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: Emma's right before I recorded this episode, and she was like, yeah, no,

866
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 2: the Dill Pickle Club is absolutely a like conscious thing

867
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 2: that we were thinking about when we started this place

868
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: and about twenty years ago now, so they have actually

869
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 2: outlasted the original built Dill Pickle Club by a couple

870
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: of years.

871
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so cool.

872
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're on there like fourth building because they

873
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 2: keep getting like, you know, it's hard to be a

874
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,439
Speaker 2: worker Cooperati bookstore, you know. Yeah, but now they own

875
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: their building. It's been put into a land trust, so

876
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: they're fucking You should go check out red Emmas if

877
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: you're only wearing Baltimore, or you should buy their books.

878
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: That's the dope Pickle Club. I never thought i'd be

879
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: doing an episode though, Like, let me tell you about

880
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 2: a nightclub.

881
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: God, yeah, this was so fun. Yeah, I'm just left

882
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,439
Speaker 1: with the deep sadness that I could never go there.

883
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: I know, at least we could go to Red Emmas.

884
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: There's lots of places like it. But it does sound

885
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: like the energy of that time, Like we said, like

886
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: the vaudeville character driven energy is so what I want

887
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: in my life, and I just wish I could have

888
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: been there. Yeah, and yeah, it sounds like it was

889
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: a mix of so many different important parts of like

890
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen teens going into the twenties. It's like just

891
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: really big changes happening there. Yeah, and about to hit on,

892
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: like a total changes in American culture that would like

893
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: you know, talking about pr talking about capitalism and all

894
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: those things. I feel like, you know, the twenties are

895
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: coming and it's going to change everything positively negatively. But

896
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: the roots seem to be you know, in these radical movements.

897
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah that yep.

898
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.

899
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: It's this behind the scenes thing like this, Like you know,

900
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: it's all these people who are like or all these

901
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: movements that are much known, much better known for their

902
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 2: other work, you know, and then being like, but there's

903
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 2: actually these like nexuses that bring all these people together

904
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: and like so Jack Jones didn't, you know, overthrow English

905
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 2: rule of Ireland the way that Jim Larkin did or

906
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: something right, but like he cleaned up after a place

907
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: where everyone came together. And maybe Jim Larkin, who has

908
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: that fucking amazing way of putting things, maybe he developed

909
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 2: that doll pickle club, or maybe he walked in as

910
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: a ringer and he was like, whatever, I got this shit,

911
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 2: you know, whatever, I don't care.

912
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And maybe there's a lesson in terms of how

913
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: to make politics fun.

914
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

915
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: Right. It doesn't have to be a boring conversation. It

916
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: doesn't even have to be a battle on Twitter. It

917
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: can be you know, sharing space with people and having

918
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: conversations that are fun and watching shows and reading each

919
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: other's znes and you know, it's a there's a lot

920
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: of joy in political movements, and I think that gets

921
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: lost in kind of the grimness of it all totally.

922
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:53,959
Speaker 2: And I also think that there's something about the fact

923
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: that they like they listen to each other, Like even

924
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: when they like would heckle each other, be like, no,

925
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: you're fucking wrong, you piece of shit, but they they'd

926
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: be like you piece of shit, but you're like, my

927
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: piece of shit, you know, like like it was like haha,

928
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: and that's something that I feel like we've really lost

929
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: and we need to bring back. And I think it

930
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 2: partly it's because it happens in person, you know, where like, yes,

931
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: the kinds of things that people say to us online

932
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: are not the kinds of things that people I mean

933
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 2: sometimes people are like driving past me and moving cars

934
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: will ye all the kinds of things that people say

935
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: to me on Twitter, you know, but like, but.

936
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: That's because they're not looking in your eyes. Yeah, they're

937
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: not looking in your face totally. Yeah, yep.

938
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: And like we actually need to learn to respect diverse

939
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: opinions and like even when we're like, no, your opinion

940
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: is fucking wrong, but it's like I hate your opinion

941
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 2: that I hate you unless you're like, you know, trying

942
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: to murder everyone or whatever, right, But like instead of

943
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: being like I don't know whatever, I clearly like, no.

944
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: It's true. It's like always been kind of the saddest

945
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: part of leftism is just the the continued in fighting

946
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: that keeps derailing things. And you know, I mean this,

947
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: the Bill Pickle Club makes me think of the Rainbow

948
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: Coalition for at Hampton's Rainbow Coalition for the Black Panthers

949
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: was just like, let's bring together, you know, all types

950
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: of people, let's bring together, like these Hillbillies as that

951
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, they were called the time, and they're going

952
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 1: to be flying their Confederate flags and like we're gonna

953
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 1: have the Black Panthers yell at you about why that's

954
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: fucked up. And then they're like, you know what, We're

955
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: not bringing the Confederate flag.

956
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 2: Did that happen? We talked about them on the show.

957
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 2: I didn't know that they ever put down the Confederate flag.

958
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

959
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,959
Speaker 1: Did they did? Yeah? I mean again, history is hard,

960
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: but according to my research and what I found out,

961
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: they did end up retiring the flag and standing together. Yeah,

962
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, breakfast for kids revolutionary.

963
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, also if people want to learn about stuff,

964
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: I know my ability to do smooth transitions was destroyed

965
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 2: somewhere earlier today. Do you have anything you want to

966
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: plug here at the end of the show.

967
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll just my podcast, American Hysteria. If you

968
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: like this show, I really think you'll like our show.

969
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: We cover moral panics, urban legends, conspiracy theories, hoaxes, and

970
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: crazes all through kind of a sociological lens and how

971
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: they affected culture and culture affected them, And I do

972
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: think there's a lot in common. It's very research based,

973
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: so if you're an obsessive researcher, I think you'll like

974
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: it too.

975
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, what do I have to plug? I'm doing

976
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 2: a bunch of what club? Oh yeah, I started a

977
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: book club. It's funny to say it like it was

978
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: in the past when it's actually in the future. For me,

979
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 2: Cools own book club every Sunday on both this feed

980
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: and it could happen here. Feed is fiction, story culture,

981
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: the kind of stuff that also matters, you know, and

982
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 2: it is hosted by me, and I read stories. And

983
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 2: the first month of it is going to be one

984
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 2: of my novella's called The Lamble Slaughter of the Lion,

985
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 2: which is the first book in the Danielle Kines series,

986
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: and it is about a squatted town that is ruled

987
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 2: over by a three antler deer that the anarchists summoned

988
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 2: to try and keep the town safe. And it is good.

989
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: You might like it. And I read it to Robert Evans,

990
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: and then after that I'm going to read other stories,

991
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: most of them won't be by me. They could even

992
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 2: be by you. But I don't know how to tell

993
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 2: you to submit, ye, because we haven't figured that stuff

994
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: out yet. Just make it really good and have it

995
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 2: come on my radar naturally. That's the way to submit.

996
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: Get good at writing fiction. Get good, yeah, be as

997
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: good at words as Jim Larkin and better than me, Sophie.

998
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 2: What you got to plug that? That's what I have

999
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 2: to plug? You did it? Hell? Yeah? All right, We'll

1000
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: see you all either Sunday or Monday or Wednesday, or

1001
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 2: whatever day of the week you listen to another episode

1002
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: of Cool People Did Cool Stuff.

1003
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 1: Hey Bye bye.

1004
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1005
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

1006
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 2: visit our website

1007
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1008
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.