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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Quick trigger warning.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking about Brett Kavanall, uh nominee for the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, which talking about apparently needs a trigger warning.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about allegations against him attempted rape. So if

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Speaker 1: that's something that is difficult for you to hear about,

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Speaker 1: that is what we're talking about today. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 1: did an episode on Brett Kavanall a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: depending on when you're listening to this and his confirmation hearing,

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Speaker 1: and we said we would update you if there was

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Speaker 1: any new info, and surprise, there's new info. He might

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Speaker 1: be a creep, that's right. Psychology professor Christine blaisie Ford

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Speaker 1: came forward with a very disturbing allegation that happened when

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Speaker 1: are both teens in Maryland. She alleges that Kavanaugh and

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Speaker 1: a friend, both quote stumbling drunk, pushed her into a

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Speaker 1: bedroom onto a bed where rock music was playing with

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Speaker 1: the volume turned way up. The post description follows while

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Speaker 1: his friend watched, She said Kavanaugh hindered to a bed

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Speaker 1: on her back and groped her over her clothes, grinding

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Speaker 1: his body against hers. I'm clumsily attempting to pull off

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Speaker 1: her one piece bathing suit and the clothing she wore

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Speaker 1: over it. When she tried to scream, she said, he

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Speaker 1: put his hand over her mouth. Ord told the Post

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Speaker 1: that both boys were laughing maniacally during the alleged assault,

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Speaker 1: and that she feared that Kavanaugh might inadvertedly kill me.

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Speaker 1: It ended when the drunken friend pounced on Kavanaugh and her,

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Speaker 1: which sent them tumbling, allowing her to escape and lock

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Speaker 1: herself in a bathroom. Ford also produced notes from couples

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Speaker 1: therapy session as corroboration of her account. Quote. The therapist notes,

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Speaker 1: portions of which were provided by Ford and viewed by

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Speaker 1: The Washington Post, do not mention Kevinaugh's name, but say

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Speaker 1: she reported that she was attacked by students quote from

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Speaker 1: an elitist boys school who went on to become highly

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Speaker 1: respected in high ranking members of society in Washington. In

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Speaker 1: a statement to the Post, Kavanaugh said quote, I categorically

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Speaker 1: and unequivocally deny this allegation. I did not do this

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Speaker 1: back in high school or at any time. It's also

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Speaker 1: worth noting that the friend that she says was in

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Speaker 1: the room with him. Mark Judge said he has no

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Speaker 1: memory of the attack, but it's also as of this

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Speaker 1: recording refusing to testify, and he might have heard. Soon

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Speaker 1: after these allegations surfaced, Senate Republicans issued a letter signed

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Speaker 1: by sixty five women vouching for his character. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I always carry around a letter of sixty five people

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Speaker 1: who I didn't write. You know, we decided have to

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Speaker 1: have it. That's like a standard thing you have in

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Speaker 1: your wallet, like, oh, here's a letter of all the

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Speaker 1: people that I never attacked, just so that you have

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Speaker 1: it for your records. That's a normal thing to be

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Speaker 1: able to produce at a moment's notice. That's what I've

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Speaker 1: been told. There is a ton more to this story,

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Speaker 1: which we will revisit in a full episode, but the

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Speaker 1: parallels to Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas are stark. Anita

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Speaker 1: Hill testified before the U. S. Senate that then Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court nominee Clarence Thomas sexually harassed her when they worked

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Speaker 1: together in a piece for The New York Times. Hill

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Speaker 1: rights The phrase they just don't get it became a

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Speaker 1: popular way of describing senators reaction to sexual violence. With

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Speaker 1: years of hindsight, mounds of evidence of the prevalence and

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Speaker 1: harm that sexual violence causes individuals and our institutions, as

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Speaker 1: well as a Senate with more women than ever. Not

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Speaker 1: getting it isn't an option for our elected representatives in

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Speaker 1: our senators must get it right. I completely agree Anita

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Speaker 1: hill Um. I think what's happening is at the very

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Speaker 1: least troubling, right, Like, obviously this is something that that

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Speaker 1: needs more scrutiny. Obviously this is something you know, it

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Speaker 1: brings up the question of whether or not this person

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Speaker 1: is fit to hold public office. I have to say,

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Speaker 1: I have been really kind of shocked by a lot

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Speaker 1: of the conversations happening where folks are saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't want to be held accountable for

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Speaker 1: things I did when I was a teenager. And I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we spend so much time teaching boys

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Speaker 1: and young men that their behavior matters, and that how

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Speaker 1: you treat people matters, and that you know, no means no,

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Speaker 1: and all of this. I can't help but wonder how

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Speaker 1: much work is being undone by these grown successful men

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Speaker 1: going on TV and saying whatever you do in high

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Speaker 1: school doesn't make a difference if you if you attempt

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Speaker 1: to write somebody in high school, you can still you know,

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Speaker 1: still hold one of the most powerful offices in the land. Right. Um.

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Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of disturbing conversations around it as well,

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Speaker 1: and I've heard a lot of well, no, there's no

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Speaker 1: other blemishes on his record that we can find, so

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Speaker 1: just this one time that's okay, like giving it sort

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Speaker 1: of a pass, which it's it's not okay. And if

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Speaker 1: this is a job interview and this is a really

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Speaker 1: powerful position, then I think we need to take it

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Speaker 1: seriously and get to the bottom of it. So I

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Speaker 1: personally do not agree that it has no it has

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Speaker 1: no bearing on his ability to lead now. But even

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Speaker 1: if that's even if that is how I felt, which

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Speaker 1: I don't, if he lied about it, if he's lying

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Speaker 1: about it now, that certainly matters for someone trying to

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Speaker 1: be oh, I don't know, a Supreme Court judge. And

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Speaker 1: if you agree, if you think, yeah, this is something

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Speaker 1: that deserves more scrutiny, We have more questions. We need

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Speaker 1: a better investigation on what's going on. You know what

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Speaker 1: you can do, Call your senator, Call your senator, Call

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Speaker 1: your senator. We hammered this home and in our first

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Speaker 1: Cabinal episode, and we're doing it again. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is so important. There are so many things that are

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Speaker 1: at stake with this nominee that it's important that we

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Speaker 1: that we know what's going on and that we are

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Speaker 1: making our voices heard. So please call your senator. You

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Speaker 1: can do so by calling two O two two to

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Speaker 1: four three one to one. That's two oh two two

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Speaker 1: to four three one two one. And you know what,

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Speaker 1: because I live in Washington, d C. I don't even

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Speaker 1: have a senator to call. So you're doing me a

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Speaker 1: personal favor by by calling your senator on my behalf

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Speaker 1: or not on my behalf, but call your senator for

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Speaker 1: those of us who live in d C who can't

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Speaker 1: call their senator. So please do this as a personal favor,

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Speaker 1: and in the meantime, enjoy this classic episode on Anita Hill.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You. From House topporks

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Christen,

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Speaker 1: I'm Caroline and Caroline. Even though we're talking today about

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Speaker 1: something that happened in one it's timely because HBO's Confirmation

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Speaker 1: hits screens April sixt in which Carrie Washington is starring

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Speaker 1: as Anita Hill. That's right, she also produced it. It's

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Speaker 1: an important story to tell. It's an absolutely important story

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Speaker 1: to tell. And some of you may have already seen,

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Speaker 1: as I did, the documentary Anita Speaking Truth to Power,

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Speaker 1: which is all about Anita hills testimony regarding sexual harassment

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Speaker 1: by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas during Thomas's confirmation hearings. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's it was pretty surprising to a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that this documentary came out because Anita Hill is

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Speaker 1: so famous private, famously private, he said, a contradiction, um,

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Speaker 1: but Hill said that she felt it was time to

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Speaker 1: revisit this and for people to understand who I am

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Speaker 1: and who that is is someone who really helped change

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Speaker 1: this country's legal and political landscape. Although, as we talked

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Speaker 1: about in our last episode, the term sexual harassment had

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Speaker 1: been coined in the mid seventies, it really wasn't until

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Speaker 1: this massive televised spectacle of a of a hearing that

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Speaker 1: the entire country, and importantly a lot of women started

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Speaker 1: talking to each other about the issue of sexual harassment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so if you haven't gone back and listened to

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Speaker 1: our previous episode on the legal history of sexual harassment.

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Speaker 1: We highly recommend that you do that. Um. But Caroline,

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if you remember this happening, because I do,

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Speaker 1: and the way that we're framing the issue today in

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Speaker 1: this podcast studio is much different than the way the

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Speaker 1: hearing was framed when I was a kid in a

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Speaker 1: very conservative home. Um, from what I can piece together

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Speaker 1: from my memory, I mean, I remember her sitting there,

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Speaker 1: I remember her, seeing her in her blue suit. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure we were not allowed to watch like the actual

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Speaker 1: hearing because she was talking about things like breasts and penises. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I remember her being seen in my home or

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Speaker 1: described in my home as really the enemy. No, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember it at all, Honestly. I I know I

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Speaker 1: have like this vague, lizard brain like knowledge that it happened, um,

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Speaker 1: But I was not aware of it. If my parents

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Speaker 1: watched anything about it. It was on the nightly news,

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Speaker 1: and I just have no recollection. And you were busy

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Speaker 1: watching Murphy Brown. I was super busy watching Murphy Brown

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Speaker 1: and Designing Women and the Cosby Show well, and so

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Speaker 1: when I watched that documentary Anita Speaking Truth to Power

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Speaker 1: a few months ago, I started crying. Caroline not kidding

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Speaker 1: because it feels so long ago, and yet it is not.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's not. And you know, the the nineties are

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Speaker 1: having such a heyday right now. Um, it's like everything

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Speaker 1: is nineties nostalgia. And yeah, I saw a picture of

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Speaker 1: Rihanna wearing a choker. Back. Everyone's wearing chokers. I should

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Speaker 1: pull out the my my handmade chokers from high school.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, I shouldn't. Um, but watching it made

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Speaker 1: me want to reach through the internet and shake it

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Speaker 1: by its lapels and say, we need to remember this thing,

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Speaker 1: this chapter in our not so long ago history. Because

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Speaker 1: the way she was treated sitting before an all male

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Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary committee, which included Veep Joe Biden. Um, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was horrifying. It was a horrifying thing to witness.

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Speaker 1: And I think every single woman listening should absolutely watch it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, watch Carrie Washington's confirmation because she's fabulous and

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Speaker 1: support her, but go back and actually watch the hearing itself. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean there are definitely clips online, their transcripts, you

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Speaker 1: can access this information. And it's so important too, because

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Speaker 1: these fourteen white male senators were essentially performing the disbelief

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Speaker 1: of women. Do you know what I mean? Like they

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Speaker 1: were they were performing how so many men felt and

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Speaker 1: feel about women who claim any type of sexual misconduct

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Speaker 1: in the workplace. Well, they were performing that and performing

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Speaker 1: the hyper sexualization of women of color. Correct. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's why I think it's so important. Read the transcript, yes,

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Speaker 1: if you want more details, but you gotta see it

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Speaker 1: because the optics of it are just stunning. So let's

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Speaker 1: set the scene, shall we. Let's go back to July

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Speaker 1: when I was going through my wind suit phase. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, me too. Were they neon? Yes, yes, of

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Speaker 1: course they were. I had so many, so many win seas. Okay, anyway, right,

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Speaker 1: So in July ninety one, when kristin I were win

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Speaker 1: suiting it up and swish swishing down the hallway, President

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Speaker 1: Bush the first nominated forty three year old conservative African

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Speaker 1: American judge Clarence Thomas to replace Justice Third Good Marshal

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court amid what was then a super

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Speaker 1: conservative political climate. And they figured that while Clarence Thomas

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Speaker 1: was way more conservative than Third Good Marshal, uh, he

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Speaker 1: would at least maintain the racial makeup of the court.

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Speaker 1: But the pinpoint Georgia Natives conservative bent. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: that is conservative with what's bigger than a capital CEE,

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Speaker 1: like a massive Washington monument size from the illuminated Bibles

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Speaker 1: that monks did. That's a huge sea. Yes, one of those,

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Speaker 1: one of those large monk sees conservative. It upset a

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Speaker 1: lot of groups. I mean, you had the double A

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Speaker 1: c P. The National Bar Association and the Urban League

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Speaker 1: fearing his views on affirmative action. They were worried that

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Speaker 1: it would reverse the progress of the Civil rights era

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Speaker 1: because he was so not for affirmative action. The National

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Speaker 1: Organization for Women worried that he would rule against legal abortion,

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Speaker 1: and the legal community at large was concerned about his experience.

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Speaker 1: He had less than two years of experience as a

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Speaker 1: federal judge. But still the nomination heads to the Senate

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Speaker 1: Judiciary committees confirmation hearings, which go relatively smoothly, but they

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Speaker 1: ended a high which sends the nomination to the full

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Speaker 1: Senate without a clear recommendation. And at this point, although

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Speaker 1: like he didn't get a glowing recommendation because it was

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Speaker 1: a tie and a lot of people didn't like him. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it was still pretty smooth sailing. Until things take a turn,

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Speaker 1: And in October of nine, Anita Hill, who was the

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Speaker 1: University of Oklahoma's first tenured black law professor, came forward,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. She didn't really come forward, but we'll

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Speaker 1: tackle that in a minute. She said that Thomas had

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Speaker 1: sexually harassed her when he was her boss at both

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Speaker 1: the Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights in eighty

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Speaker 1: two and at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in nineteen two.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eight three, but let's back up a second,

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Speaker 1: how did she even end up before the Senate if

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Speaker 1: she didn't technically really kind of come forward on her own.

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Speaker 1: So she actually submitted a confident Hill statement to the

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Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee saying that Thomas had harassed or ten

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Speaker 1: years earlier when they were both single. The FBI, per usual,

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Speaker 1: investigated the report, found it to be inconclusive, and the

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Speaker 1: committee decided not to act on it. But then it

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Speaker 1: became clear that members of various senators staffs approached Anita

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Speaker 1: Hill about her report, rather than what would later be

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Speaker 1: alleged that Hill approached senators attempting to smear Clarence Thomas,

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Speaker 1: And in fact, she remained silent publicly until just two

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Speaker 1: days before the full Senate was set to confirm Thomas,

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Speaker 1: when someone leaked the statement to journalists, and that happened

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Speaker 1: on October six, and NPR and Newsday broke the story.

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Speaker 1: And once it broke, Anita Hill famously said, I felt

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Speaker 1: I had to tell the truth. I could not keep silent.

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Speaker 1: And so you have a lot of different groups, including

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Speaker 1: a lot of women's and feminist groups, in addition to

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Speaker 1: Senate Democrats helping pressure a testimony into being, and so

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Speaker 1: Hi'll get summoned to testify live on TV, delaying the

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Speaker 1: confirmation hearings, and those harassment hearings began just a couple

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Speaker 1: of days later on October eleventh, with Thomas's opening statements,

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Speaker 1: which journalists noted were bitter to the point that people

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Speaker 1: thought he might withdraw his candidacy, followed then by eight

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Speaker 1: hours of Anita Hill's testimony. And I want to say

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Speaker 1: that it was a pretty big deal that they convinced

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Speaker 1: the you know, the Senate to air it live on

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Speaker 1: television because they did not want it to be a

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Speaker 1: closed hearing. Yeah, and I mean sort of off on

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Speaker 1: a tangent, but that very decision within usher in our

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Speaker 1: era of like celebrity, giant paparazzi type of tabloid trials

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Speaker 1: as we then would see in ninety five with O. J. Simpson. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so with her testimony, Anita Hill's testimony, it was a

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Speaker 1: massive spectacle. There's really no other way to describe it.

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Speaker 1: She was grilled and prodded for eight hours by a

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Speaker 1: panel of fourteen white male senators, including all all Joe Biden,

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Speaker 1: but she never lost her cool, asserting that she's not

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Speaker 1: making a formal sexual harassment claim and that she did

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Speaker 1: not ask to testify. And Time magazine even painted her

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Speaker 1: as cool as a cucumber, prim delicate, quiet and serious.

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Speaker 1: And I mean if anyone saw Cecil Richards, you know,

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Speaker 1: planned parenthood testimonies before the Senate, and even Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: has been Ghazi testimonies, I mean, those two things were

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Speaker 1: nothing compared to what Anita Hill sat through. Oh I know.

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Speaker 1: But it is interesting that Time magazine article came out

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Speaker 1: about a year after hearings, and they were sort of

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Speaker 1: going back and forth trying to I don't know what

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Speaker 1: they were trying to do. They were trying to paint

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Speaker 1: a picture looking back of how the hearings had gone,

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Speaker 1: and they were sort of The only way I can

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Speaker 1: picture it is like a cat with a ball of yarn,

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Speaker 1: like batting back and forth, the ideas of like, who's lying,

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Speaker 1: someone's lying? How could it be her? She was so

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Speaker 1: quiet and prim and serious, But how could it be him?

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Speaker 1: He's a big deal judge. And it's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's sickening. And I get and they did a great

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Speaker 1: job of breaking down what happened in the hearing, but

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Speaker 1: still it's like, oh good, just another notch in our

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Speaker 1: culture of not believing women. Well, and that's also why

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Speaker 1: I so fervidly argue that everyone needs to watch that

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Speaker 1: testimony because when I did see like the Benghazi and

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Speaker 1: planned parenthood hearings, flashbacks came of Anita Hill, because it's

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Speaker 1: like it's the same thing, especially when it came to

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Speaker 1: Cecil Richards and planned parenthood of mostly men. By that point,

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Speaker 1: um challenging the veracity of what women say about their

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Speaker 1: own bodies, right right, exactly. Well, so let's get into

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Speaker 1: the allegations. Hill said in her report that Thomas talked

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Speaker 1: about pornographic films and other materials, and good Old Committee

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Speaker 1: Chairman Joe Biden asked her, I'm not sure I don't

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Speaker 1: know why. I mean, I guess for details, but he

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Speaker 1: specifically requested to know what the most embarrassing encounter was,

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Speaker 1: and she said it was during Thomas's discussion of a

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Speaker 1: particular porn actor who had a really large penis, who

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Speaker 1: went by the name of Long Dong Silver and Senator

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Speaker 1: Oran Hatch, who would prove to be one of Hill's

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Speaker 1: most aggressive interrogators over the course of her testimony, dug

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Speaker 1: up a federal appeals court decisions citing an obscene photo

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Speaker 1: of a character by that name, and so he tried

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Speaker 1: to discredit her by saying, no, no, no, you heard

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Speaker 1: it in this eight case. You didn't hear it from

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas. Yeah, um, and He'll also talked about how

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas would brag about his own sexual prowess the

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Speaker 1: size of his own penis, and the most famous, slash

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Speaker 1: infamous moment came when Hill recounted Clarence Thomas reaching for

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Speaker 1: a can of coke when they worked together and asking

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Speaker 1: who has put pubic hair on my coke? And oor

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Speaker 1: in Hatch again one of the most aggressive interrogators, as

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Speaker 1: you put it, Caroline said that she simply stole that

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Speaker 1: story from the Exorcist, which features the line there seems

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Speaker 1: to be an alien pubic hair in my gin. And

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Speaker 1: I just want to know whether or in Hatch was

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Speaker 1: like that much of an Exorcist buff to be able to, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, pull that out of his hat so quickly,

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Speaker 1: or if that was an interns job regardless, I was

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Speaker 1: actually jeless. I was trying to picture the same thing

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Speaker 1: about like how how do you send an intern on

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Speaker 1: that on that kick? Like do you just have an

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Speaker 1: intern who works for who's like that's a line similar

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Speaker 1: to one in the Exorcist, like someone who's like really

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Speaker 1: plugged into pop culture? Because Google didn't exist back then,

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Speaker 1: No Goog. Maybe the interns name was Google. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But the last telling Straw was her last encounter with

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Speaker 1: Thomas as an e e o C employee. So she

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Speaker 1: says that Thomas had been asking her out. He'd asked

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Speaker 1: her out about ten times, but she declined, saying that

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Speaker 1: dating a supervisor was inappropriate, and so her last day

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Speaker 1: at the e o C before taking a position at

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Speaker 1: Oral Roberts University, uh Anita Hill said that Thomas invited

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Speaker 1: her to a restaurant afterwork, assuring her that dinner was

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Speaker 1: a professional courtesy only sounds all right, it's a way

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Speaker 1: to see me off. I'm leaving for another job. But

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Speaker 1: that last straw he'll said was he made a comment

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Speaker 1: I vividly remember. He said that if I ever told

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Speaker 1: anyone of his behavior, that it would ruin his career.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, aside from a handful, just a couple of people,

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Speaker 1: she really didn't tell anyone now, And of course that

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Speaker 1: made her immediately suspect to the Judiciary Committee. And I

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Speaker 1: should say that not all of the senators were out

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Speaker 1: to get her, but I mean it was nonetheless a

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Speaker 1: very hostile room. Um. And in response to that, she said, listen,

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Speaker 1: I was afraid of coming forward. She reported feeling vulnerable, humiliated,

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Speaker 1: and frustrated. I mean talking about humiliation. I mean she

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Speaker 1: had to repeat so many times, Caroline, that pubic care story.

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Speaker 1: It is mind boggling. Um. She said, at one point,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't as though it happened every day, but I

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Speaker 1: went to work during certain periods knowing that it might happen.

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Speaker 1: And that goes to that e o C definition of

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment, where it happens frequently enough that it's creating

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Speaker 1: a hostile work environment, and she was afraid of the

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Speaker 1: repercussions if if she spoke out. Yeah, she was afraid

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Speaker 1: that she'd be overlooked for work assignments, could lose her job,

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Speaker 1: might not be able to find another political job at

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Speaker 1: all in the Reagan administration if she kept turning her

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Speaker 1: superior down. And this had very real physical consequences. The

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Speaker 1: anxiety that she felt dealing with all of this humiliation

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Speaker 1: and frustration contributed directly to her having to go to

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Speaker 1: the hospital for stomach pains, which is something we talked

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Speaker 1: about in our last episode on sexual harassment that so

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Speaker 1: often victims of trauma and or sexual harassment end up

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Speaker 1: with these very real manifestations of the anxiety and pain

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Speaker 1: their feeling. And that Time magazine article that I referenced

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Speaker 1: earlier after the hearing, uh, they were wondering like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should believe her after all, because they wrote

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Speaker 1: given the detail and consistency of her testimony, it was

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Speaker 1: almost inconceivable that Hill, rather than describing her own experiences,

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Speaker 1: was fabricating the portrait of a sexual harassment victim. Duh.

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Speaker 1: Of course she wasn't making it up. And as she

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Speaker 1: herself said, I have nothing to gain here. This has

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Speaker 1: been disruptive of my life, and I've taken a number

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Speaker 1: of personal risks. And she even reported being threatened at

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Speaker 1: the time and beyond the testimony, and she went on

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Speaker 1: to say, I have not gained anything except knowing that

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Speaker 1: I came forward and did what I felt that I

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Speaker 1: had an obligation to do. That was to tell the truth. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there was absolutely nothing in this or Anita Hill,

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Speaker 1: But what about witnesses, what about other women, because surely

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Speaker 1: Anita Hill wasn't the only one this happened to, or

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Speaker 1: if she was, isn't that so suspect? Well, the thing is,

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Speaker 1: other women did come forward, but we never really heard

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Speaker 1: about it. I mean, some came forward to support hills

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Speaker 1: claims that she had previously complained to them, you know,

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Speaker 1: in private, of sexual harassment at the time of the incidents.

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Speaker 1: And some came forward though, to complain of their own

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Speaker 1: incidents of harassment. So why don't we know so much

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Speaker 1: about these other women? Caroline? Well, I mean they were

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Speaker 1: they were stifled by the Judiciary committee. Uh. One of

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Speaker 1: the most famous examples of this is the journalist Angela Right,

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Speaker 1: who was a really fascinating character in her own right,

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Speaker 1: didn't mean to do that. That's also her last name.

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Speaker 1: But Wright had worked with Thomas at the e o

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Speaker 1: C as well and shared similar accounts with Senate investigators,

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Speaker 1: like like the ones that Hill had shared, but Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden lifted her subpoena because she wasn't considered credible. So

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Speaker 1: basically you had Democrats and Republicans who were afraid of

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Speaker 1: Right testifying because they were worried it would cream or chaos.

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Speaker 1: They were worried that it would doom Thomas's nomination. Right

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Speaker 1: had been fired and or quit from like two other jobs,

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Speaker 1: and basically she stood up for herself in those scenarios

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Speaker 1: with not so great bossa is. But the committee was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that just goes to show she's unstable. But basically what

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Speaker 1: led Angela Right into this situation, uh, was the fact

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Speaker 1: that she was horrified that Hill was being called hysterical

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Speaker 1: and that senators were saying, oh, there's no problem, it's

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Speaker 1: not like Hill was touched. So Right talks to her

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Speaker 1: higher ups at her newspaper, The Charlotte Observer and says,

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Speaker 1: I want to pin a column. I want to write

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Speaker 1: about this. This is what I was hired to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do it, but she hadn't even published

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Speaker 1: it yet when the Senate Committee called and they were like,

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Speaker 1: we're very interested to know what's going to be in

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Speaker 1: your column, and Right ended up going to d C.

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Speaker 1: She sits in her lawyer's office for three days waiting

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Speaker 1: to be called, and behind the scenes what was going

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Speaker 1: on as Republicans and Democrats were working together to basically

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Speaker 1: be like, nah, we are not calling her, and I

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Speaker 1: mean Right would have and and Biden admits this Right

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Speaker 1: would have shifted the tone of the whole thing. And

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Speaker 1: she said, I believe her, Anita, because he did it

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Speaker 1: to me. And even a coworker Rights backed up her

428
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: account that Thomas had pressured her to date him, had

429
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: commented on Right's appearance and had asked what size rights

430
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: breasts were. And then you have Sakari Hardnett, who was

431
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: Thomas's ex assistant, who wrote to the Judiciary Committee quote,

432
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,239
Speaker 1: if you were young, black female and reasonably attractive, you

433
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: knew full well you were being inspected and auditioned as

434
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: a female by Thomas. And that which reading this today

435
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: in sten like, obviously that is sexual harassment up down

436
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: in sideways, But that also reflects that that kind of

437
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: assumption that yes, okay, this is going to happen to you.

438
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: If you're pretty enough, you're gonna get hit on. But

439
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: it also reflects all of the retro office advice that

440
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: we talked about in our previous episode on the legal

441
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: history of sexual harassment, where you know, women writing to

442
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: other women would say, you know what, be pretty form,

443
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: It's okay, it's it's a compliment. He's just paying you

444
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: a compliment. Well, so, while you had these women in

445
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: the wings who had been waiting to support Anita Hill

446
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: but weren't called, you also had many who were against her,

447
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: some reported conflicting stories to weaken her credibility. Thomas had

448
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: a much larger number of witnesses at his disposal to

449
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: benefit his case rather than Anita Hills. But you also

450
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: have the fact that the committee ignored evidence regarding Thomas's

451
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: habitual use of pornography, although the habit was later documented

452
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: by so many others, including former girlfriend Lillian McEwen, and

453
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: so Lilian McEwen becomes an important character in this case

454
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: because Thomas's defenders cited his relationship with her in order

455
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,239
Speaker 1: to deflo at Hill's accusations, how could he be doing this.

456
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: He's in this long term relationship with this lovely Lilian

457
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: woman and she didn't testify again because of Biden. He

458
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: limited female witnesses to those who had a professional relationship

459
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: only with Thomas, which is a laugh because he's actually

460
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: her asked them, so it's not all professional. Well, and

461
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: as McEwen would later describe it, she said, he was

462
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: always actively watching the women he worked with to see

463
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: if they could be potential partners. So you got some

464
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: grooming going on. She called it a hobby of his,

465
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: and saying that he asked one woman her bra s

466
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: eyes at one point, saying how he was obsessed with

467
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: porn and would talk about what he had seen in

468
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: magazines and films if there was something worth noting, which

469
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: sounds a lot like what Anita Hill was saying and

470
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: speaking of x as though we should also note that

471
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: um one of Anita Hill's ex boyfriends, attorney John Carr, said,

472
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I remember her talking to me

473
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: in confidence about this. But he was so nervous for

474
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: her when he found out that she was going to

475
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: have to testify, because he knew the climate and he

476
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: knew what she was up against. Yeah, she was not

477
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: facing a sympathetic crowd. Oh and also in retrospect to

478
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: the owner of the porn video rental store that Thomas

479
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: would frequent because again pre Google, pre YouTube, uh said, Oh,

480
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: if I had known how things would have turned out,

481
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: I would have testified too. I saw him all the

482
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: time in there. Mm hmm, Yeah, I'm making my disapproving

483
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: emoji face. Uh. Well, so we've we've heard a lot

484
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: from Anita Hill, We've heard from Angela, right, what about

485
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: what about Thomas? How did he respond? Well, he did

486
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: not mince words. So Thomas's response to Anita hills accusations

487
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: was none to please, to put it incredibly mildly. Uh.

488
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: He first said that he felt shocked, surprised, hurt, and

489
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: enormously saddened upon hearing about Hill his accusations, and he

490
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: went on to of course deny that he'd ever asked

491
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: her out, instead claiming just to be a nice guy,

492
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: just a friend willing to help her out. And then

493
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: he famously called the hearings a high tech lynching for

494
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: uppity blacks, and then writing about this not too long after,

495
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: Time magazine reporters say that basically, you felt the whole

496
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: rooms still as soon as he says that, because he

497
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: is sort of throwing down the gauntlet around racism. Oh, absolutely,

498
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: I mean, And he threw in another lynching reference in

499
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: his relatively short testimony too. He said, no job is

500
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: worth what I've been through, No job, no horror in

501
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: my life has been so debilitating. And he goes on

502
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 1: to say, I will not provide the rope for my

503
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 1: own lynching. These are the most intimate parts of my

504
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: privacy and they will remain just that private. Yeah, I mean.

505
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: He went on lamenting about the testimony, how it had

506
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: drawn out his nomination, how I brought so much scrutiny

507
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: from the press. He said the process was robbing him

508
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: of something he could never get back, and it needed

509
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: to stop quote for the benefit of future nominees. He

510
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,719
Speaker 1: also vacillated between saying he'd rather take an assassin's bullet

511
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: to this kind of living hell, and yet would rather

512
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: die than withdraw. But really, the point, he repeatedly hammered,

513
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: was that this was a racially motivated attack and on

514
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: on behalf of Hill, but also that it was that

515
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: she was some sort of operative on behalf of the

516
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: Democrats and he said, I cannot shake off these accusations

517
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: because they played to the worst stereotypes we have about

518
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: black men in this country. And if I remember correctly, Caroline,

519
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: in his autobiography, Clarence Thomas, you know, of course, writes

520
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: about how angry he will always remain about this incident

521
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: and about Anita Hill. And he said that his response

522
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: to learning that he had in fact been confirmed was quote,

523
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: whoopie damn do mm hmm. Sounds really excited. I wonder

524
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: if that has anything to do with the fact that

525
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: he's spoken from the bench twice in a decade. Anyway,

526
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 1: in the meantime, as this is happening, you see the

527
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee attempt again and again too discredit and

528
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: delegitimize Anita hills testimony because of saying over and over again,

529
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: you know the old thing of like, well, how could

530
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: you even put yourself in this place? It goes back

531
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: to the standard for those old rape laws, where it's

532
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: like if you did not violently protest, if someone didn't

533
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: hear you screaming rape throughout the town square, then it

534
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: just couldn't have happened. So the first question they wanted

535
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: to know was, well, why did you follow him from

536
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: the Department of Education too? Very ironically the E E

537
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: O C. Yeah, And she answered by saying that she

538
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: thought by this point the sexual overtures which had so

539
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: troubled me, had ended. And secondly, like we had said earlier,

540
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: she was really worried that Reagan might phase out the

541
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: Education Department, and so she was worried about losing a job. Um.

542
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: And then they said, you know, if he's still harassing

543
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 1: you at the E O C, why did you remain

544
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: in contact with him after he left? And her answer

545
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: to that was, well, I might as well remain cordial

546
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: rather than burning bridges and cutting off all ties, since

547
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: I didn't work with him anymore and no longer felt threatened.

548
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: And of course they then pressed, why didn't you cut ties?

549
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: Why didn't you know? Why didn't you burn those bridges?

550
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: And she said, if I had done that, I would

551
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: have had to explain this whole situation that I've come

552
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: forward with today, because remember she didn't she didn't want

553
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: to publicize it. Yeah. And so as a result of

554
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 1: all of this so called evidence against her, Senator Arlen

555
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: Specter produced an affidavit from John Doggett, a Yale, classmate

556
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: of Clarence Thomas's and an acquaintance of Anita Hills and

557
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: dogg It. In this affidavit claimed that Hill had cornered

558
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: him at a party about leading her on, and he

559
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: referred to her ideas about romance between them as fantasies,

560
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: to which, of course, Anita Hill responded, I did not

561
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: at any time have any fantasy about romance with him.

562
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: But all of this was Senator Specter's way of trying

563
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: to paint her as just simply unstable. I mean this

564
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: woman again, hyper sexualization of women of color. I mean

565
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: she she just wanted a sexual attention. Yeah, And I

566
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: mean Spector hammered her on details, minute details of her

567
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: story changing. He questioned how valid her memories of events

568
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: from eight to ten years earlier were. In his example,

569
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: he said that when you spoke to the FBI in September,

570
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: you said you told just one friend about the harassment.

571
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: Now you have to witnesses lined up to testify that

572
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: you'd complained at the time. And she basically said, listen,

573
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: you have to take this testimony and the statement as

574
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: a whole. And of course there is no motivations, she

575
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: said to show i'd make up something like this. I mean,

576
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: I can hardly tell you what happened eight to ten

577
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: days ago, Caroline, much less eight to ten years. Um.

578
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 1: But one thing that's really important for us to highlight

579
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: is the gender and racial aspects of this, of how

580
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: it ties into the angry black women's stereotypes and concerns

581
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: about coming across that way, um. Women simply being seen

582
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: as outside of the norm in general, even back not

583
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: so long ago, and Biden himself even framed it as

584
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: part of quote a fundamental power struggle going on in

585
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: this country between women and men, making it. It's making

586
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: it a whole like he's she said thing when it

587
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: should not have been at all. Well, yeah, and as

588
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: many articles have gone on to point out, it should

589
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: have been a he said, they said. But um, when

590
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: you are looking at this in terms of outsiders perspectives,

591
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: people who are watching this hearing happened, so many women

592
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: saw their own experiences echoed in Hills experience, and so

593
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: many men were watching their fears about women making unsubstantiated

594
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: but damaging claims playing out of course, unsubstantiated in this

595
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: case being in air quotes. Um. And although angela right

596
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: for instance, back then took issue with how black men

597
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: were being portrayed in the press. She said she was

598
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: insulted that Thomas was considered the best African American for

599
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: the job. If they're gonna, like try to maintain the

600
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: racial balance of the court, they can at least find

601
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: a better, more qualified guy, someone who doesn't have this

602
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: sexually predatory repassed. Yeah. I mean, And the thing is, like,

603
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: Thomas was absolutely right about the stereotypes of black men

604
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: in this country, but he was using that to play

605
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: against like stereotypes about women and to discredit her. And

606
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: but if we put gender aside, the African American community

607
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: at the time largely stood behind Thomas. I mean to

608
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people, Anita Hill, a black woman coming

609
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: forward to testify against a black man, I felt like betrayal. Yeah. Yeah,

610
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: it goes against the idea of solidarity, standing with your community.

611
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: What Angela Wright said about you know, I hate how

612
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: black men are portrayed in the press. I don't want

613
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: to have another takedown campaign of a black man. But

614
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: there are better people for this role. And Anita Hill

615
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: in the documentary would say I had a gender and

616
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: he had a race, And she explained it to Slates

617
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: Dollia Lithwick by saying that you have to keep in

618
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: mind that in Washington, d c. There was a great

619
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: deal of entitlement that went along with being male, and

620
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: they didn't take it into account, and instead they portrayed

621
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: him as an African American who could use the lynching

622
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: metaphor to his advantage. In other words, this is performance absolutely.

623
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, though, you know, Lithwick asked Hill how it

624
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: felt to hide her anger, because you know, we have

625
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: the whole stereotype about the angry black woman which has

626
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: been used historically to marginalize women's intelligence and credibility. So

627
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: she has to mask all of that, whereas Thomas is

628
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: able to use his as a way to exert power.

629
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: And Hill said, quote, I don't use my anger as

630
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: a strategy. And I think that that's what he was doing.

631
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: That was a strategy. I don't even know how real

632
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, and then you have you know, we've

633
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: mentioned this already. You mentioned it earlier, Christian about going

634
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: back to early rape laws about women needing to uh,

635
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: they have to perform their anger, pain fear. They've got

636
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: to run screaming through the town to prove that they

637
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: were raped. And this gets at the root of what

638
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: Democratic Arizona Senator Dynas d Coccini said in that twenty

639
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: four documentary when he said that when women are harassed,

640
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: they ought to get angry and they ought to raise hell.

641
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: And Anita Hill is like, uh, excuse me what she says.

642
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: People can't tell us how we respond to our own problems.

643
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: They shouldn't say because she didn't act the way I

644
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: would have acted, it must not be true. You're supposed

645
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: to bang on the table. But she said, had I

646
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: done what d Concini said, then I would have been

647
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: caricatured in a different way. I mean absolutely. They were

648
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: already trying to paint her as hysterical and that only

649
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: would have played into that as well. But the thing is,

650
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: even after Thomas was confirmed, the gender discrediting efforts did

651
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 1: not stop. And this is where we have to talk

652
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: about an odious man, an odious writer named David Brock

653
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 1: and a book he wrote soon after the confirmation hearings

654
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: called The Real Anita Hill, and it was part of

655
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: a right wing smear campaign that continued after Thomas had

656
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: taken his seat at the bench to portray Hill as

657
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: a man hater, a crusading leftist, and a feminist zealot,

658
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: along with being a spurned woman bent on revenge. So

659
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: the things that they would highlight where how this woman's

660
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: never been married, she doesn't have kids, she's ambitious in

661
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: her career. What is her deal? She must be unhinged

662
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: not to mention she is a woman of color. What

663
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: is she doing in here? She just got into this

664
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: position Asian thanks to affirmative action, and now she's, you know,

665
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: inca hoots with feminist lawyer Katherine McKinnon to unleash some

666
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: kind of feminist campaign on this country. And we're not

667
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 1: going to stand for it. This feminist campaign to make

668
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: men act like human beings unthinkable. Oh and we have

669
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: to mention the most famous slash infamous. I feel like

670
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: this whole thing is famous slash infamous, this phrase that

671
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: Brock used and then was repeated. It feels like every

672
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: single review and even retrospective on the book The Real

673
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: and Anita Hill, in which he described her as quote

674
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty. Yeah,

675
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 1: I mean it really His book really served to frame

676
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 1: the discourse for years, years and years until he came

677
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: out and apologized and said he had twisted the truth

678
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: at the behest of Republican politicians. I mean, but the

679
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: damage was already done. I Mean. The wildest thing to

680
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: me about all of this is how when that book

681
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: came out, reviewer after reviewer considered it almost like a

682
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: masterpiece of journalism. Um Deirdre English wrote a pretty in

683
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: depth analysis of the book and the reviews that it

684
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: had gotten in the nation in and she said the

685
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: only the only reviewer and commentator on it was op

686
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: ed columnists for The Times Anna Quinlan, who raised the

687
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: red flag, saying like, uh, there's some underlying bias that's

688
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: pretty evident in Broxhole argument, and it seems like he's

689
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: distorting some assumptions. But even she said that he had

690
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: unearthed some compelling contradictions. But listen to this, Caroline. This

691
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 1: will this will get your blood boiling, if it isn't already.

692
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: In response to this book over in Newsweek, George Hill

693
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: wrote at Anita Hill was not a victim of sexual harassment,

694
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 1: but of quote the system of racial preferences that put

695
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: her on a track too fast for her abilities and

696
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: made her fluent in the rhetoric of victimization. What but

697
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: you know what, I see a lot of that tone

698
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: reflected in a lot of internet common today. Oh yeah,

699
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: you you're just reveling in being a victim. Don't play

700
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: the victim? Yeah? Why why do liberals or feminists or

701
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: trans people or whoever you are, Why do you just

702
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: want to be the victim? Well? And even in uh

703
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: a Newsweek article on this that we read that came

704
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago, even then, it spent

705
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: so much time focusing on like how she looked and

706
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: called her childless. At one point, it's like, seriously, are

707
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: we still are we really focusing on her uterus? We are? Yeah,

708
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: we are. Because Hill herself has said that she feels

709
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: that that part of her identity, being a single woman

710
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: who doesn't have children, really really colored how people viewed her,

711
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: the lens through which people viewed her, and she says

712
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: it still does, which is why again it's another part

713
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: of why she wants to talk about it now. Yeah,

714
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean, And even these contemporary articles that we read

715
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: for this podcast would usually circle back to her relationship status,

716
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: being like, and it turns out she's still not married,

717
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: but don't worry, she has been in a committed, happy,

718
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: monogamous relationship with a with an insurance salesman for a

719
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: number of years. It's like fine, yeah, It's like the

720
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: subtext is still there. And almost immediately though Hill's testimony

721
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: had amazing ripple effects. Gloria Steinham, speaking to Newsweek, said

722
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: that when Hill was not believed, the feeling was that

723
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: this would cause fewer people to report sexual harassment, But

724
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: what happened was the reverse. Because she had opened up

725
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: the subject, women began to talk to each other and

726
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: discovered that this had happened to many other women. So

727
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: it turned out to be a huge national teaching on

728
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: sexual harassment. And sure enough, according to e o C filings,

729
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 1: sexual harassment cases in the wake of her testimony more

730
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: than doubled from just over six thousand and nine to

731
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: just over fifteen thousand in nine. And over that same

732
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: period you also see awards to victims under federal laws

733
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: nearly quadrupling from seven point seven million dollars to twenty

734
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: seven point eight million dollars. So, even though we clearly

735
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: in still have deeply entrenched attitudes that allow sexual harassment

736
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: to continue, clearly, in just that short period, women are

737
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: starting to be heard. Yeah, I mean. And as another

738
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: part of the silver lining to this horrific spect to call,

739
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: you have more women in government. When the hearing took place,

740
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: just two women were in the Senate, and of course

741
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: none of whom were sitting in front of Hill that day.

742
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: But in Nino you have what has been deemed the

743
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: Year of the Woman, which has been credited to fall

744
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: out from those hearings, which drove a record number of

745
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: women to run for office, and women won four new

746
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: Senate seats plus one incumbent reelection, and twenty four new

747
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: House seats. Yeah, so clearly making a positive dent. Clearly

748
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: women are like, oh no, oh no, this isn't gonna

749
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: happen again. Yeah, I mean. And also once you have

750
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: those women in Congress, you also have more laws being

751
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: passed tightening up sexual harassment you know, protections and also

752
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: um sexual harassment protections within the government, like for government

753
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: employees that were not previously there. Well, so spoiler, I

754
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: guess at this point, in case you weren't aware, Clarence

755
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: Thomas was confirmed. WHOOPI damn do WHIPTI damn do as

756
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: he said, uh, and he was approved by a narrow

757
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 1: margin fifty eight. So you know, even though all those

758
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats were in cahoots to suppress women's testimony, uh,

759
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: still wasn't very popular. But like Kristen said earlier, you know,

760
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: he never let go of that anger. And in that

761
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: two thousand seven autobiography he referred to Hill as my

762
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: most traitorous adversary. But Caroline, I've got a drop a

763
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: fact that I learned in the process of researching this

764
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: podcast which blew my mind, which cites like, how, of course,

765
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: how much he would hate Hill and consider her his

766
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: most traitorous adversary considering that one of his buds is

767
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: a rush Limbaugh, he who coined the term feminazi, He

768
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: officiated Clarence Thomas did Rush Limbaughs third now dissolved marriage. Yes,

769
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: Caroline's eyes a huge y'all. Oh, I hate it. Yeah,

770
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: But enough with those guys. What happened to Hill? What

771
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: happened to Anita Hill? Well, she had grand plans to

772
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: just go back to her previously quiet and private life

773
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: at the University of Oklahoma teaching commercial law. But unfortunately,

774
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: I guess life had other things in the cards because

775
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: she didn't stay there long. Probably not because life had

776
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: other things in the cards. It probably had more to

777
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: do with the death threats she was receiving in addition

778
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: to facing a push from conservative lawmakers to fire her

779
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: despite the fact you know, she hadum tenure ah and

780
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: while she didn't want to return a commercial law and contracts.

781
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: So many people were clamoring at this point to understand

782
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: sexual harassment and related laws that she's kept her focus

783
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: on it. And now she's a professor of social policy,

784
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: law and women's Studies at Brandeis University. And she says

785
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: that women still come up to her with like tears

786
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: in their eyes, treating her like a celebrity, I mean,

787
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: which she is to a to a certain degree, but

788
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: just saying thank you for what you did. Oh, I mean,

789
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: such a heroine absolutely um And Gloria Steinum has said

790
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: that some senators since then have you know, kind of

791
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: come back and approached feminist leaders asking like what can

792
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: they do to kind of rectify that wrong that was

793
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: committed And Steinham just suggested, apologize, just apologize for it.

794
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: But they've not know they haven't. And in a really

795
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: weird twist, and this kicks off the documentary, Thomas's current wife, Jenny,

796
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: who was not on the scene during the hearings, left

797
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: Anita Hill a bizarre voice message edge at seven thirty

798
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 1: in the morning on a Saturday on her work phone, saying,

799
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: I would love you to consider an apology sometime and

800
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: some full explanation of what you did with my husband.

801
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: So give it some thought and certainly pray about this

802
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 1: and come to understand why you did what you did. Okay,

803
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: have a good day. And the wild thing is that

804
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: she was making that phone call not in like two

805
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: or three, that was in and I mean, and she,

806
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: you know, invokes this prayer rhetoric and stuff. And Hill

807
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: herself is a devoted Christian, you know, it's not It's

808
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: not a thing of like Anita Hill being a heathen um.

809
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: But Hill, of course was stunned by it and simply

810
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: turned the voicemail over to law enforcement authorities. She was

811
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: not going to call Jinny Thomas back up and have

812
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: a little heart to heart. And writing about this for

813
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: The New Yorker, Jeffrey Tuban said, virtually all the evidence

814
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: that has emerged since the hearings corroborates Hill's version of events,

815
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: and this, of course makes Jenny Thomas's phone call to

816
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: Hill all the more puzzling, and speaking of evidence that

817
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: has emerged, you know, corroborating Hill's testimony, I do want

818
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: to recommend the book Strange Justice, The Selling of Clarence

819
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: Thomas by Jane Meyer and Jill Abramson, because there's was

820
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: the book that really, you know, kind of through Brock's

821
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: the quote unquote real Anita Hill to the wayside and journalistically,

822
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: you know, revealed what was going on with the case.

823
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: Imagine that journalistically, well, so you know, everybody wants to know,

824
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: like are you are you vengeful? Rageful? Like do you

825
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 1: throw darts at pictures of Clarence Thomas's face as I would? Um?

826
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: But Anita Hill has told many reporter I mean, of

827
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: course I'm angry. I'm angry with him, I'm angry with

828
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: the Senators. I'm probably less angry than I was ten

829
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: years ago, but it's still there. And she talks about

830
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: how bit by bit you let go of anger, and

831
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: she says, for me, the best way to do that

832
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: is to think about what my contribution can be to

833
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 1: make sure this doesn't happen to other people. She said

834
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: that the larger goal is both gender equality and racial equality,

835
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: because both racism and sexism contributed to my being victimized.

836
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: But I don't want to walk around being angry all

837
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: the time. It's not constructive. And so not only did

838
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: she speak truth the power she has been walking her talk.

839
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: She's doing exactly that, And what she really wanted to

840
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: accomplish with that most recent documentary was for young women

841
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: to know that history and also to know that she's okay.

842
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: I mean her parents who were so old at the time,

843
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: they sat there watching this whole thing go down. She was,

844
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, one of was it. It was more than

845
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: a dozen children, like grew up in poverty. I mean,

846
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: she worked her way into you know, that tenured professorship. Um.

847
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: So she also wants to shed light on the fact

848
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: though that, like we have emphasized so many times, this

849
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: is not an issue that was just frozen in time. Yeah,

850
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: that we still have so much to accomplish, And she

851
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,240
Speaker 1: said that she basically looks at it from the perspective of,

852
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, it took a lot of brave women for

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00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: us to get where we are, but we have not

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00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: fixed the problem. All we've done is acknowledge it. Well, Caroline,

855
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: I do feel good that we have you know, answered

856
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 1: Anita Hills call to spread this history to young women

857
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: and to all of the people listening to this podcast,

858
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: because it's something that we all need to know about.

859
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely and listeners, now, I want to hear from you.

860
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about it? I mean, does this

861
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: experience resonate with things that you've experienced before. Mom Stuff

862
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: at house sul works dot Com is our email address.

863
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

864
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages

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00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. I have one here

866
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: from Michelle. She says, I just wanted to send through

867
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: an email thanking you for your recent podcast interviewing Emily

868
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: Airies from bost Up. The first five minutes of the

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00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: podcast put a name to the roller custer of emotions

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00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: that I've been feeling for the last twelve months. Three

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00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: years ago, I packed up, left my family and friends

872
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: and moved to the opposite side of the country for what,

873
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 1: on paper was a great job. I've always prided myself

874
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: on being upbeat, enthusiastic and passionate about my work. However,

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00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: by the time I reached the end of last year,

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00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: I was a mess of exhaustion, anxiety, and cynicism. I

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00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: started obsessing over the simplest tasks at work, lost all motivation,

878
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: and spent countless nights awake, obsessing over the smallest details

879
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: from the day. I had stopped exercising and socializing and

880
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: was feeling isolated. I knew that my job was the

881
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 1: source of these feelings, but felt caught in a cycle

882
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: that I couldn't get out of. At the beginning of

883
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: this year, I realized that something had to give, and

884
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: I started considering a career change, but never felt quite

885
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: brave enough to take the next step. The same day

886
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: that I listen to your podcast, I finally worked up

887
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: the courage to submit an application for that job I've

888
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: always wanted. While it may amount to nothing, thanks to

889
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,479
Speaker 1: your podcast, the next step doesn't seem quite as big

890
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 1: as it once did. Well, thanks, Michelle and good luck.

891
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from Alicia about our sexist

892
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: emoji episode, which, by the way, y'all, we've been getting

893
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: so much great feedback on that and so many great

894
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: favorite emojis, She writes. A year and a half ago,

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00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: I was painting a paint by number type mural in

896
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: my bedroom wall and needed something to listen to while

897
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: I worked. I was late to the podcast scene, so

898
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: I asked around for recommendations, and my mom recommended your podcast,

899
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,439
Speaker 1: and I've been working on listening to every episode since then.

900
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 1: High five red Mom. When I listened to your sexist

901
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: emojis episode, it reminded me of a night this past December.

902
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: My sister and I were home for the holidays, and

903
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: one evening, we were sitting with my mom on her

904
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: bed looking at all new emojis from the recent update.

905
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,720
Speaker 1: We joked that there needed to be a female version

906
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: of the egg plant emoji, and we spent the next

907
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes scrolling through the list looking for an acceptable

908
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: vulva representation. Again cool mom, alert um. Anyway, our top

909
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: two favorites are the taco and the side by side

910
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: pieces of sushi slash sashimi. To be honest, I'm still

911
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: a little fuzzy on exactly when the egg plant emoji

912
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: should be used, but I've been known to send my

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00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 1: husband the sashimi to indicate that I'm interested in some

914
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: BANKI banky. Oh my gosh, Alicia, thank you so much,

915
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: and thank you for introducing me to my new favorite emoji.

916
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: And listeners. You can send your letters to mom seven

917
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: house at works dot com and for links all of

918
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs,

919
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: videos and podcasts with our sources. So you can learn

920
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: more about the incredible Anita Hill, head on over to

921
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com or more on

922
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff

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00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: Works dot com