WEBVTT - Ep. 870: The Public Land Grab Returns with Hal Herring

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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<v Speaker 1>the White Tail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven

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<v Speaker 1>versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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<v Speaker 1>Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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<v Speaker 2>the show, I am joined by Hale Herring to discuss

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<v Speaker 2>the return of the public land grab movement and other

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<v Speaker 2>conservation related issues and threats that we're going to have

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<v Speaker 2>to keep an eye on heading into the new year.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>brought to you by First Light and their Camera for

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<v Speaker 2>Conservation initiative. And today we're continuing our series looking forward

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<v Speaker 2>into twenty twenty five and the new year, and the

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<v Speaker 2>focus today is public lands and conservation related issues. We

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<v Speaker 2>talked the big beginning of the year, kind of looking

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<v Speaker 2>back on twenty four and things that Tony and I

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<v Speaker 2>have learned as we look towards planning our next year

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<v Speaker 2>worth of projects. Last week, I think it was we

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<v Speaker 2>talked with Jake about planning and looking forward to a

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<v Speaker 2>new year of habitat improvements. Now today we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>go a little bit bigger picture, looking across the nation

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<v Speaker 2>at the issues that are going to potentially impact all

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<v Speaker 2>of us who enjoy hunting and fishing on wild public

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<v Speaker 2>places and also private land related places too. But today, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to kind of turn back the clock to

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<v Speaker 2>a set of issues that was talked a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>here on the podcast you know, five, six, seven, eight

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, and that being the land transfer movement, the

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<v Speaker 2>public land grab movement, folks trying to get rid of

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<v Speaker 2>our public lands, transfer them, sell them, degrade them, overutilize

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<v Speaker 2>them for things that are not conducive to hunting and

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<v Speaker 2>fishing and healthy wildlife populations and clean air and clean water.

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<v Speaker 3>All that kind of good stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a set of topics that has to be

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<v Speaker 2>discussed again, and my guest today is someone who's perfectly

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<v Speaker 2>suited to do that. It's Hail Hearing. Hell is the

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<v Speaker 2>host of Backcountry and Hunters and Anglers podcast. He's also

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<v Speaker 2>a long time outdoor writer and journalist. He's covered the

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<v Speaker 2>conservation and environment related beats and kind of the intersection

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<v Speaker 2>of those topics with hunting and fishing. He's covered that

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<v Speaker 2>for decades, I believe, and he's actually now working on

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<v Speaker 2>a book exploring some of these topics, in particular the

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<v Speaker 2>history of our public land. So Hell is a wealth

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<v Speaker 2>of information and he's someone who has been tracking the

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<v Speaker 2>latest iteration of these public land threats. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's one of the key things that we need to

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<v Speaker 2>understand now, is that maybe for a minute, we felt

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<v Speaker 2>like we'd won the battle, we'd kind of stopped this

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<v Speaker 2>land transfer movement in its tracks. Back in eighteen nineteen twenty,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a decent bit of good news on the

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<v Speaker 2>public lands side of things, and over the last four

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<v Speaker 2>years there has been a lot more of that positive

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<v Speaker 2>changes when it comes to management of our public lands,

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<v Speaker 2>expanding public lands again, increasing protections on our public lands again.

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<v Speaker 2>But it appears that new forces are ascending. New leaders,

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<v Speaker 2>new influencers, new political think tanks and groups with different

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<v Speaker 2>goals and different aims now are in a position to

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<v Speaker 2>influence change for us in a not so good way.

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<v Speaker 2>And we've started to see the beginnings of that. And

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<v Speaker 2>one of those ways has been what Hell has described

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<v Speaker 2>as the slickest land grab attempt yet, which was this

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<v Speaker 2>lawsuit that the State of Utah recently filed back at

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<v Speaker 2>the end of twenty twenty for looking for the disposal,

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<v Speaker 2>asking the Supreme Court for the disposal of eighteen point

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<v Speaker 2>five million acres of public lands in Utah.

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<v Speaker 3>And then in.

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<v Speaker 2>Another like thirteen fourteen, maybe fifteen other states signed on

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<v Speaker 2>in support of that lawsuit, states like Idaho, Iowa, Wyoming, Alaska.

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<v Speaker 2>These states were in support of this. So this is

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<v Speaker 2>a new way. This is a new back door way

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<v Speaker 2>to try to get folks to get folks hands on

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<v Speaker 2>our public lands. And of course, as we've talked many times,

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<v Speaker 2>we got to keep public lands in public hands. So

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<v Speaker 2>our discussion today is going to be about what this

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<v Speaker 2>latest land grab attempt means and the good news on

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<v Speaker 2>that front, which is just a couple days ago the

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<v Speaker 2>lawsuit was struck down by the Supreme by the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're going to discuss what this lawsuit was about,

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<v Speaker 2>why the Supreme Court shot it down, what that means

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<v Speaker 2>for the future, what a all of this might point

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<v Speaker 2>towards over the coming year or years, as far as

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<v Speaker 2>how the public land grab movement might be shifting. In

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<v Speaker 2>what we need to do as hunters and anglers and

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<v Speaker 2>outdoors people to make sure that we are ready for

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<v Speaker 2>this and ready for some new challenges coming down the

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<v Speaker 2>pipeline because it is now time to re engage. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to discuss this. We're going to discuss why twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five. In the next few years, we as a

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<v Speaker 2>hunting and fishing community are going to have to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of get on it again. Maybe we've been sitting back

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<v Speaker 2>on our laurels a bit recently, sitting pretty feeling comfortable.

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<v Speaker 2>No longer we need to rally. We need to stand

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<v Speaker 2>back up and get busy, because if we don't, we

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<v Speaker 2>are once again faced with the very real threat of

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<v Speaker 2>losing places we really care about. Places like the Boundary Waters,

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<v Speaker 2>places like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, places like the

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<v Speaker 2>Tongus National Forest, places like the hundreds of millions of

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<v Speaker 2>acres managed by the Bureau of Land Management across the

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<v Speaker 2>American West. That's what we're discussing today. Hale is the

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<v Speaker 2>perfect guy to discuss it with. I will give a

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<v Speaker 2>one quick soft plug. If this whole land transfer movement thing,

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<v Speaker 2>if the history of how our public lands have been

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<v Speaker 2>traded and managed and now are under threat, if that's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of new to you, if you haven't been following

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<v Speaker 2>this story over the last decade with us here on

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<v Speaker 2>Wired Hunt, I gotta plug my book. You can see

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<v Speaker 2>it behind me if you're watching the video. It's called

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<v Speaker 2>That Wild Country and Epic Journey into the past, present,

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<v Speaker 2>and Future of America's Public Lands. That book was my

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<v Speaker 2>my attempt to try to get the average person up

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<v Speaker 2>to speed on what's going on and do it in

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<v Speaker 2>a fun, adventurous, compelling way. So there's a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>stories about my adventures on public lands, hunting and fishing

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<v Speaker 2>and backpacking and rafting and doing all that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And along the way, I'm going to get you all

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<v Speaker 2>up to speed on how we acquired six hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>forty million acres of federal public lands, how we is

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<v Speaker 2>America and have access to these things, and the crazy

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<v Speaker 2>story that led to that, as well as the debates

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<v Speaker 2>and controversies and concerning threats that we will be facing

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<v Speaker 2>here in the future to make sure we maintain that

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<v Speaker 2>access in these incredible places for us to go out

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<v Speaker 2>there and camp and hunt and fish and have a

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<v Speaker 2>hell of a time. So check out That Wild Country.

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<v Speaker 2>There are maybe autograph copies still on the media website.

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<v Speaker 2>If not, going over to Amazon pick up a copy

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<v Speaker 2>and lets.

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<v Speaker 3>You do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Tune into the rest of this podcast with hal Herring.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good one. It's an important one.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for being.

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<v Speaker 2>Here all right here with me now on the line

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<v Speaker 2>is mister Hale Herring.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome back to the show.

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<v Speaker 4>Hell thanks for really having me man man Mark.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I always appreciate you making time to do this.

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<v Speaker 2>These are some of my favorite chats. And that's for

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<v Speaker 2>another reasons. One because you're just a wealth of information

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<v Speaker 2>and second because you are someone who from afar gives

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<v Speaker 2>me both hope and inspiration when it comes to the

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<v Speaker 2>future of our wild places, public lands, wildlife through your podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>through your words you have You've done that for a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people. Hell, so I want to thank you

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<v Speaker 2>here at the outset for doing that.

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<v Speaker 4>I appreciate that. It ain't really I wasn't really trying

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<v Speaker 4>to do that. That's how I feel. I've had it.

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<v Speaker 4>If it comes through, it's just it's just the way

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<v Speaker 4>I've lived it. Like my life has been so I've

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<v Speaker 4>been so lucky, raised my kids and my family with

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<v Speaker 4>the public lands and hunting and fishing Missouri River catfish

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<v Speaker 4>and I mean I just and all the way back

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<v Speaker 4>where I grew up in Alabama. It's like I've been lucky,

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<v Speaker 4>so my passion for all this is kind of borne

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<v Speaker 4>in and.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's hard to fake that when it's that deep

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<v Speaker 2>in your bones and your history.

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<v Speaker 3>And same for me. It's uh, it's these things.

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<v Speaker 2>They have given us so much, So much of our

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<v Speaker 2>lives have revolved around these places, these pursuits, these critters

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<v Speaker 2>you can't help but want to make sure they're still wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to make sure that this this pumper can

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<v Speaker 2>keep on ticking right, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>I feel like there's a there is kind of in

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<v Speaker 4>my case, I've been so lucky with it. If there

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<v Speaker 4>is a quid pro quo. Yeah, And then being a

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<v Speaker 4>reporter like Field and Stream, I got to deep dive

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<v Speaker 4>into like some of the things that can go wrong

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<v Speaker 4>and some of the things that have gone right.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, and and and that's I guess why I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to have you back on here again. I wish

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<v Speaker 2>we had good things that we maybe do have some

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<v Speaker 2>good things to talk about. But I think the major

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<v Speaker 2>impetus for giving you a ring again is the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the boogeyman of six, seven, eight, nine years ago

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<v Speaker 2>that we were talking about with the public land transfer movement,

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<v Speaker 2>the divestment of public lands, the idea of selling or

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<v Speaker 2>transferring public lands that was getting really concerning in twenty fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen.

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<v Speaker 2>Somewhere in that window, we're starting to see that starting

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<v Speaker 2>to rear its ugly head again. I think for a

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<v Speaker 2>minute there folks kind of felt like, all right, we've

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<v Speaker 2>got it tamped down. We got this thing as a

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<v Speaker 2>political poison pill. If you try to mess with our

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<v Speaker 2>public lands, it's going to be political suicide for you, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And in some of these recent years we felt pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good about things. But there have been some recent changes,

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<v Speaker 2>some recent attempts I think that are maybe forcing us

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<v Speaker 2>to open our eyes again to a new series of threats.

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<v Speaker 2>In this lawsuit coming out of Utah is maybe the

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<v Speaker 2>most glaring of those. And literally the day that we

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<v Speaker 2>started record, the day that we're recording this, some big

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<v Speaker 2>news has opened up on that front. Can you just

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<v Speaker 2>give us a quick rundown of what this latest attempt

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<v Speaker 2>to take our public lands was coming out of Utah,

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<v Speaker 2>why that was so concerning, and then what happened today?

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<v Speaker 4>Sure, and we can all be thankful that we live

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<v Speaker 4>in a country with a you can argue with however

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<v Speaker 4>you want, but with a functioning Supreme Court of the

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<v Speaker 4>United States. You know, anyway, we can argue about its

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<v Speaker 4>composition and all that, but the court did rule. It's

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<v Speaker 4>not for me or for you. The court ruled on

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<v Speaker 4>the basis of the lawsuit. The lawsuit was the State

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<v Speaker 4>of Utah filed a lawsuit against the United States federal government,

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<v Speaker 4>our government claiming that and I'm not sure how they

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<v Speaker 4>picked eighteen point five million acres of BLM Bureau of

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<v Speaker 4>Land Management managed public lands in Utah had to be

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<v Speaker 4>gotten rid of, had to be disposed of. They claimed

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<v Speaker 4>that it was unconstitutional for the US government to maintain

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<v Speaker 4>control or management of those lands under the good okay,

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<v Speaker 4>because they were unappropriated. And to try to get that

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<v Speaker 4>short but make it understandable is like people, if you

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<v Speaker 4>know about the homestead Acts. Right, So the United States

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<v Speaker 4>government gave away, for a very small fee, starting in

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<v Speaker 4>eighteen sixty two, parcels little land to settle the West.

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<v Speaker 4>We had already given away huge amounts in the east, right,

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<v Speaker 4>but in the West was opening up after the Civil War,

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<v Speaker 4>and so those lands, they were unappropriated lands that were

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<v Speaker 4>given to homesteaders. The great piece of history. It's one

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<v Speaker 4>of the reasons the United States is the way it is.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, it was a Jeffersonian concept from the beginning.

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<v Speaker 4>You know a lot about it, Mark and I. But

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<v Speaker 4>I'm just trying to boil it down. But yeah, so Utah, nobody,

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<v Speaker 4>nobody wanted these desert rock lands in Utah at that time,

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<v Speaker 4>and so they remained a part of the federal lands.

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<v Speaker 4>And Utah is claiming that they are unappropriated and so

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<v Speaker 4>they have to be gotten rid of. Okay, So the

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<v Speaker 4>problem with that, there's a lot of problems with the lawsuit,

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<v Speaker 4>which the Supreme Court found quickly this morning, was that

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<v Speaker 4>these lands are appropriated. They are federal public lands managed

0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 4>for multiple use for the American.

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.920
<v Speaker 3>People by the Bureau of Land Management.

0:13:55.960 --> 0:14:00.200
<v Speaker 4>By the Bureau of Land Management. In this case, the

0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:05.439
<v Speaker 4>problem with the lawsuit was that if it had been successful,

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 4>thirteen other states signed on to this boondoggle. And that's

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 4>a problem of the American culture wars right now, I

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.160
<v Speaker 4>can tell you because the state of Alabama signed on

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:25.440
<v Speaker 4>to this, and I guess they figured it unappropriated. Bankhead

0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.440
<v Speaker 4>National Forest, where some of the greatest public land in

0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.920
<v Speaker 4>the Southeast was also they're going to get a hold

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 4>of that. I don't know what they're planning. What the

0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.880
<v Speaker 4>concept was. I think it was a culture war thing.

0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.800
<v Speaker 4>We're all against the federal government. We better prove that

0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.320
<v Speaker 4>by signing on to this nutball lawsuit.

0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because by signing this amicus brief, as I understand it,

0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 2>that was nothing more than kind of ceremonial, right, I mean,

0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.920
<v Speaker 2>they're signing onto this would not in any way change

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:55.840
<v Speaker 2>the outcome of the lawsuit, right.

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 4>No, it would not, but it certainly threw a gauntlet

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 4>down as to who what these people believe about our

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:08.760
<v Speaker 4>public lands and hunting and public hunting and fishing in

0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.680
<v Speaker 4>the Southeast and there we've got a big We've got

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.240
<v Speaker 4>a big problem. This is this the amicus brief with

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:23.080
<v Speaker 4>the additional signings shows us that we have a big

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 4>problem in amongst conservation, hunting and fishing and public lands

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:29.600
<v Speaker 4>users in the United States.

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Basically fifteen or sixteen states with a government that is

0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 2>antagonistic towards our public lands.

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 4>Yes, was what that would show well? With with elected officials, Yeah,

0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 4>I would say, yeah, I mean, the governments, whatever we

0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 4>make it, we vote for these dudes.

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Wyoming, Yeah, Wyoming, Alaska, Iowa, Alabama.

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.360
<v Speaker 3>I think one or two of the Dakota's. There was

0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 3>a long list of them.

0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think a whole lot of our listeners

0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.040
<v Speaker 2>live in those states. Yes, And I think that's a

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.280
<v Speaker 2>clear sign that we've got some talking to do to

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:03.400
<v Speaker 2>our representatives.

0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:08.040
<v Speaker 4>We do, and and so the so the the lawsuit

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.840
<v Speaker 4>was tossed out this morning, dismissed this morning by the

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:15.240
<v Speaker 4>Supreme Court, with this enormous list of case law behind it.

0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.720
<v Speaker 4>Behind the dismissal that this this lawsuit is not valid.

0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.560
<v Speaker 4>Right that those lands are appropriated and they are appropriated

0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 4>by That's not what this frime court said. They just

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.480
<v Speaker 4>said the lawsuit wasn't valid. But the fact is is

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.800
<v Speaker 4>that you know, the origins that we were talking before

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.400
<v Speaker 4>we get record that the origins of this were the

0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:43.600
<v Speaker 4>anger from the off road vehicle community. This is what

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.920
<v Speaker 4>I understand at the Bureau of Land Management for closing

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.720
<v Speaker 4>down and trying to recover some places that that had

0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:56.200
<v Speaker 4>been become very overused by damaged right damage totally. Uh

0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:01.320
<v Speaker 4>And like Labyrinthe Canyon and the mo Ebb. I mean,

0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 4>if you've ever gone to the Rock Crawler festival down there,

0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.520
<v Speaker 4>you know it's pretty pretty big. It's huge are these

0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.440
<v Speaker 4>are This is a huge industry.

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I ended up down there once by accident at the

0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 2>same time as the Easter weekend GSA.

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 4>Festival or whatever.

0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it was it was wild, that's for sure.

0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:25.120
<v Speaker 4>Wow. And and I don't share in rock hopping and

0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 4>you know, like like mad Max in on the on

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.840
<v Speaker 4>the desert, right, but it's cool that other people do.

0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.480
<v Speaker 2>And that was, you know, one of my big takeaways

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 2>while I was down there. And what makes federal management

0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.000
<v Speaker 2>of our public lands so special is that we have

0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.840
<v Speaker 2>this multiple use mandate on them, right that stipulates that

0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.160
<v Speaker 2>this land is not just for the cattle grazers, not

0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.240
<v Speaker 2>just for the rock climbers, not just for the deer hunters,

0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.680
<v Speaker 2>or the miners or the oil drillers or the loggers

0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 2>or the bird watchers. It's for all of us. And

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.680
<v Speaker 2>there has to be some compromise there to to manage

0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:02.040
<v Speaker 2>for that.

0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 4>Right. Yeah, nobody can get everything they want. I mean,

0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 4>it's just like living in a family or or sharing

0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:13.239
<v Speaker 4>a house with people. But the what what made me

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:18.320
<v Speaker 4>amazed about this was that the impetus for this lawsuit,

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 4>and this we talked about this is kind of this

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.520
<v Speaker 4>is like with the Bundies and all those other folks

0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 4>too that were in the in the more it advised

0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.960
<v Speaker 4>Sagebrush rebel movement was if they got what they said

0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.359
<v Speaker 4>they wanted, they would be the ones that would be

0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.240
<v Speaker 4>the first loss. They would have to pay to go

0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.520
<v Speaker 4>rock hopping on the desert, and there would be huge

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.720
<v Speaker 4>places like like when you think about the Amungiri Resort

0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.800
<v Speaker 4>down there just south of the Utah border in Arizona

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.360
<v Speaker 4>where they charge what thirty eight hundred dollars a night

0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 4>and they pick you up and fly you up in

0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.440
<v Speaker 4>a helicopter to do sunrise yoga on the mesa and

0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.159
<v Speaker 4>they have like, you know, little servants that come and

0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.399
<v Speaker 4>bring you the dates or whatever and make sure that

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.280
<v Speaker 4>you're hydrated in the h you're not going on like

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:10.560
<v Speaker 4>a good camera. But those people would be happy to

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 4>buy another thirty forty fifty thousand acres of this, of

0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:14.600
<v Speaker 4>course they would.

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 2>And so that's I mean, that's the same worry that

0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>we had back in twenty sixteen about the land transfer

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 2>movement was basically, if federal public lands go to states,

0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.439
<v Speaker 2>states have a mandate to have a positive ROI on

0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.800
<v Speaker 2>those state lands. They have to make money off of them,

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 2>and they simply would not be able to do that

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 2>with this level of land and the management needed the

0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.040
<v Speaker 2>risk of wildfires and a thousand other things that would

0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.240
<v Speaker 2>just bankrupt a state inevitably leading them to have to

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.840
<v Speaker 2>sell these lands. Right, isn't that still the case with

0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 2>this situation.

0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's for sure that case. I mean Idaho did

0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.879
<v Speaker 4>a full study of that, and like they had to

0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 4>cut down every tree, all the timber immediately in order

0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:05.520
<v Speaker 4>to p off like the management you know, costs. But

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:11.880
<v Speaker 4>this this lawsuit was even more kind of wild because

0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.480
<v Speaker 4>if you look at the PR campaign for it, it

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.399
<v Speaker 4>was stand for our Land or something, you know. But

0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.159
<v Speaker 4>the lawsuit actually said that the lands have to be

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.120
<v Speaker 4>disposed of, that the federal government couldn't hold them. This

0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.919
<v Speaker 4>one didn't say they had to be transferred right to

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:33.800
<v Speaker 4>the states. So this this was this was you're basically

0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.639
<v Speaker 4>a taxpayer in Utah was basically paying a PR firm

0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.760
<v Speaker 4>and a law firm to carry a lawsuit to take

0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.040
<v Speaker 4>away the very place they hike, hunt, or ride their

0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:50.359
<v Speaker 4>rock crawler. This one was like we're talking about the

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 4>Overton window, the things that are acceptable. This one was

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.360
<v Speaker 4>throwing the Overton window over way off to right field

0:20:57.920 --> 0:20:59.880
<v Speaker 4>left field? And is that why?

0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.399
<v Speaker 2>I heard you say this on your on your podcast

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.160
<v Speaker 2>at one point that this was maybe the slickest attempt

0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.520
<v Speaker 2>yet that you've seen for stealing our public lands. And

0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.160
<v Speaker 2>and there's a little bit of I think one thing

0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.840
<v Speaker 2>I worry about is issue fatigue over this thing. Right,

0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.679
<v Speaker 2>we keep on talking about challenges to public lands, the

0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.160
<v Speaker 2>threats to our public lands, and folks have been hearing

0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:21.920
<v Speaker 2>this for years and years and years now, and there's

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:26.359
<v Speaker 2>this worry that eventually folks will stop paying attention. But

0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.000
<v Speaker 2>this one seemed like one that rose a lot more red.

0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:31.719
<v Speaker 3>Flags than usual. Why why was that?

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Why did this one stand out as so concerning and

0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.199
<v Speaker 2>and maybe pretending something even more concerning in the future.

0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:45.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, because it was an incredible propaganda campaign. This one

0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.879
<v Speaker 4>was better. I was coming back we did uh we

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 4>were working Bureau Land Management uh sagebrush planting job in

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.840
<v Speaker 4>October and we had one of them was in Colorado

0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:02.240
<v Speaker 4>and we came back to the Utah cardor Wassat's cardor there,

0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, and I saw those giant signs with these

0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:10.720
<v Speaker 4>like super nice looking people standing on them with their kids,

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:15.399
<v Speaker 4>going stand for our land. And I thought it was

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.400
<v Speaker 4>I mean, did you see the billboards. No not, They're

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.720
<v Speaker 4>very very high end. Uh. And then it would say

0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 4>go to stand for our land dot org. And then

0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:27.240
<v Speaker 4>there would be a map of the United States which

0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.159
<v Speaker 4>was like completely red west of the Mississippi, you know,

0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:34.560
<v Speaker 4>like the federal government controls everything. And it was funny

0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.960
<v Speaker 4>because they had even put all the Indian reservations on there.

0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 4>And it was a but it was a slick propaganda campaign,

0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:50.520
<v Speaker 4>something like the Bundees and the the old Sagebrush rebel guys.

0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:52.760
<v Speaker 4>They would have never they would have never done this.

0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.600
<v Speaker 4>This was the governor of Utah and using the taxpayer

0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.600
<v Speaker 4>money to create a slick propaganda campaign to divest the

0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:04.280
<v Speaker 4>American people of some of the greatest red rock country

0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:04.840
<v Speaker 4>in the world.

0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.639
<v Speaker 2>This idea, though, that they're putting out there, the federal

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.680
<v Speaker 2>government owns all your land. The big bad boogeyman bureaucrats

0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.919
<v Speaker 2>in DC are making horrible decisions. We the state, you,

0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.040
<v Speaker 2>the people here close to these lands, you should have

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.200
<v Speaker 2>You should be able to control these places. The states

0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:37.760
<v Speaker 2>should be managing these places, et cetera. That it first glance,

0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:42.840
<v Speaker 2>might seem like an appealing message. Why And one other

0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.960
<v Speaker 2>thing I'll add is that we often hear and sometimes

0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:53.159
<v Speaker 2>have seen real shortcomings with federal management sometimes of our lands. Right,

0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.680
<v Speaker 2>it's not always perfect. There's a lot of challenges. Yeah,

0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of a lot of issues, right, So

0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.399
<v Speaker 2>it's not perfect over there. So people love to complain

0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:04.280
<v Speaker 2>about federal management of everything. But in this case public lands. Sure,

0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:07.800
<v Speaker 2>why I guess what would you say to someone with

0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:12.280
<v Speaker 2>that set of critiques? Why is federal management actually a

0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.959
<v Speaker 2>good thing to continue? And why is it that this idea,

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:19.960
<v Speaker 2>this alluring idea of local control, Why is that a

0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:20.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit of snake oil.

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:26.720
<v Speaker 4>Well, because you have way more input into federally controlled

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:29.879
<v Speaker 4>public lands. Federally manages public lands, and you ever will

0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.080
<v Speaker 4>under SITTLA. If you look at this, that SITTLA is

0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:37.240
<v Speaker 4>a state Land Board of Utah and they've been selling

0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:44.720
<v Speaker 4>off state lands at a great clip. Now, this that

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.240
<v Speaker 4>state transfer movement will tell you right away that well,

0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:51.040
<v Speaker 4>we're not letting these aren't school trust lands. We're taking

0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:55.320
<v Speaker 4>over huge sections of federally managed public lands and we're

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:58.439
<v Speaker 4>not going to make them school trust lands. So we

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.359
<v Speaker 4>can do whatever we want with them. But the fact is,

0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:04.119
<v Speaker 4>what do they want to do. Do you think you

0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:10.080
<v Speaker 4>would have more local control over Sittla lands. You can't

0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:14.520
<v Speaker 4>even you can't even camp on state lands in Colorado

0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:19.200
<v Speaker 4>without permission, if I if I understand that right. Montana

0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:22.440
<v Speaker 4>fought a huge lawsuit in the nineteen eighties over public

0:25:22.480 --> 0:25:28.679
<v Speaker 4>access to state land Section. I mean, it's just let

0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:31.359
<v Speaker 4>me tell you, I think there is a lot of

0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:35.960
<v Speaker 4>mismanagement of every kind in America all the time, and

0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:41.400
<v Speaker 4>in Sudan and in Brazil and in Finland. Human beings

0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:45.959
<v Speaker 4>do good things and they do bad things, and federal

0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:50.639
<v Speaker 4>management of public lands is always in conflict, and it

0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:53.920
<v Speaker 4>should be. If you and I are inherit a great,

0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:59.320
<v Speaker 4>big mansion with our twelve siblings, we're going to argue

0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:03.800
<v Speaker 4>over whether the bathroom fixtures ought to be gold, how

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:06.960
<v Speaker 4>steep the steps ought to be. When Grandma comes, we're

0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:10.199
<v Speaker 4>gonna argue over that, and we're gonna make mistakes, and

0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:14.439
<v Speaker 4>somebody's gonna paint the living room, you know, purple, and

0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:18.040
<v Speaker 4>you're gonna be furious about that. But that doesn't mean

0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:21.800
<v Speaker 4>that you give the mansion away to some dude from

0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:25.199
<v Speaker 4>Norway and everybody in the family live out on the

0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:27.680
<v Speaker 4>streets looking back at the mansion and going like, oh, man,

0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:29.920
<v Speaker 4>remember when I had that bedroom upstairs and we.

0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:32.359
<v Speaker 3>Played chess, and wasn't that nice?

0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:38.160
<v Speaker 4>Wasn't it great? And so I'm a big fan one.

0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.200
<v Speaker 4>I think that if we look at public land management

0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:44.199
<v Speaker 4>since eighteen ninety one when we had the first forest

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:49.000
<v Speaker 4>reserve signed by President Harrison, you will find missteps, and

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.760
<v Speaker 4>you will find all kinds of all kinds of things.

0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:58.679
<v Speaker 4>You will find good mostly good people working very hard

0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:00.960
<v Speaker 4>to try to do the right thing as they understand

0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:04.439
<v Speaker 4>it at that time, and you will see one of

0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:08.800
<v Speaker 4>the greatest success stories that Aldo Leopold. Aldo Leopold would

0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:17.120
<v Speaker 4>approve of seventy percent right. Sixty percent even Aldo Leopold,

0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:20.760
<v Speaker 4>the great conservation thinker of his time, who worked for

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:24.240
<v Speaker 4>the Soil Conservation Service during the dust Bowl and was

0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:29.119
<v Speaker 4>the proponent of the first wilderness area, he would approve

0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 4>about sixty percent right. And dude, when you have this

0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:37.760
<v Speaker 4>wonderful thing, you got to argue over the management. And

0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:40.680
<v Speaker 4>that's what we do. And this is good. It's good

0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:43.960
<v Speaker 4>to argue over. It's good for the OHV people to say,

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:48.600
<v Speaker 4>bolm is stepping on my toes. I want to do this,

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.399
<v Speaker 4>I want to do that, and people argue over that,

0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 4>and they go out and look at Labyrinth Canyon and

0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.639
<v Speaker 4>they look at the places and they say, ah, this

0:27:56.800 --> 0:27:59.920
<v Speaker 4>is too much impact for me. And then somebody else goes,

0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:02.960
<v Speaker 4>ain't no impact here. This is wonderful. I love this.

0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:05.439
<v Speaker 4>Shooting on public lands is always going to be a

0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:08.359
<v Speaker 4>big It's going to be a big issue going forward.

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.080
<v Speaker 4>Of course, can you take your refrigerator out there, you

0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 4>blow it up with the ak and you drive off,

0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:17.399
<v Speaker 4>and somebody else goes like, oh my god, look at

0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:21.240
<v Speaker 4>this horrible thing. Right, and so you can't really do

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:24.760
<v Speaker 4>that if you want to keep on acting that way. Yeah,

0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:30.120
<v Speaker 4>so we but it's not just compromise either. It's bringing people.

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:33.600
<v Speaker 4>This is the great unifier the United States. Public land

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:39.360
<v Speaker 4>unifies right left, Republican, Democrat, Independent. This is the last

0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:42.560
<v Speaker 4>of the great commons in this country.

0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:46.320
<v Speaker 2>And I think a key thing to remember is despite

0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:48.400
<v Speaker 2>the fact that we can point to plenty of things

0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:50.520
<v Speaker 2>that aren't just raight, we're plenty of things that we

0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:54.640
<v Speaker 2>personally aren't quite happy with we have. We are the

0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 2>envy of the world in many cases with what we have,

0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>with this imperfect yet still really damn good system. To

0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.640
<v Speaker 2>carefully manage these lands as best as possible for the

0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:09.400
<v Speaker 2>greatest number of people. With this multiple use mandate, we

0:29:09.520 --> 0:29:13.360
<v Speaker 2>have built in a set of people hate bureaucracy, but

0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.520
<v Speaker 2>sometimes when you have something as precious as this public

0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:20.280
<v Speaker 2>land estate, we should have a lot of guardrails in place.

0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:22.520
<v Speaker 2>We should have a lot of process in place, We

0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:26.160
<v Speaker 2>should have a lot of public input opportunities. But yeah,

0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:29.640
<v Speaker 2>it slows things down sometimes. Yes, it causes some speed

0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:34.280
<v Speaker 2>bumps and challenges, but it's that important. If you if

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:36.440
<v Speaker 2>the states had this, none of that's.

0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:41.760
<v Speaker 5>There, no no, and and people, you know they the

0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:44.800
<v Speaker 5>nineteen seventies were the environmental decade, you know, when we

0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.440
<v Speaker 5>set a lot of that federal policy and law in place.

0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 4>Flipmu for instance, in nineteen seventy six, the need for process,

0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 4>a National Environmental Policy Act. Night was that seventy six, I.

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:57.000
<v Speaker 3>Think somewhere in the ballpark.

0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:01.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And these are onerous and they're difficult to deal with,

0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:04.840
<v Speaker 4>and sometimes we we'll go back and look at them

0:30:05.040 --> 0:30:07.959
<v Speaker 4>and say do we need this? And that's the beauty

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:12.440
<v Speaker 4>of having the mansion, having the land. We can figure

0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:16.760
<v Speaker 4>out and we'll make mistakes, and you know, if the

0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 4>bureaucracy has gotten so overwhelming and bloated that it's not

0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:26.040
<v Speaker 4>working for public land management anymore. We have the voting power,

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 4>we have the citizen power to change that.

0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:30.000
<v Speaker 3>Well.

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:32.920
<v Speaker 2>I think a great example of that was, you know,

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:34.840
<v Speaker 2>twenty nineteen, twenty twenty whenever.

0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:35.800
<v Speaker 3>That was when.

0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 2>As we moved through this land transfer movement, we were

0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:46.760
<v Speaker 2>able we as a collective outdoor collection of communities, hunters

0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:50.120
<v Speaker 2>and anglers and climbers and mountain bikers and outdoor enthusias

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:53.280
<v Speaker 2>of all stripes, really stood up and rallied around public

0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.360
<v Speaker 2>lands and said, hey, this is not okay to transfer

0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:58.320
<v Speaker 2>these to states, this is not oka to to dispose

0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:00.200
<v Speaker 2>of them. And it got to a point where where

0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:04.240
<v Speaker 2>to get re elected in twenty twenty as a senator,

0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:09.600
<v Speaker 2>several Republican senators had to really make strong stands on

0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:13.640
<v Speaker 2>public lands and get the president at the time to sign,

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:16.920
<v Speaker 2>for example, the Great American out Doors Act into law,

0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.880
<v Speaker 2>things that would show a win on the public lands

0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:22.280
<v Speaker 2>side of things. To help get the support of hunters

0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:24.160
<v Speaker 2>and anglers and other people who care about these things.

0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:27.080
<v Speaker 2>We were able to make it a political necessity. We

0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:31.320
<v Speaker 2>were able to influence change, and that that was just

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:36.160
<v Speaker 2>for me a very encouraging sign that when we come

0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 2>together on some of these things, we can steer the

0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:40.040
<v Speaker 2>ship that's right.

0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:44.720
<v Speaker 4>And I mean I envision a day when, you know,

0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.760
<v Speaker 4>never it's never going to stop people trying to get

0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:50.560
<v Speaker 4>a hold of the Utah pubbet lands, when somebody will

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.680
<v Speaker 4>buy them or you know, and there's money to be

0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:58.120
<v Speaker 4>made off of getting rid of our public lands. I mean,

0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:01.280
<v Speaker 4>you can imagine what somebody would pay for the Talladega

0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:04.680
<v Speaker 4>National Forest in Alabama for instance, like like it would

0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:08.280
<v Speaker 4>be a lot, you know. So you have to choose.

0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 4>The people have to choose to keep this institution that

0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:15.520
<v Speaker 4>we've inherited. You gotta choose. You gotta choose every and

0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:19.200
<v Speaker 4>kind of it's kind of like being on a personal

0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.800
<v Speaker 4>level of self discipline. You gotta choose every day today,

0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:25.680
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna I'm gonna get up early,

0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:27.920
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna get to work. I'm gonna make my things happen.

0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:31.960
<v Speaker 4>You got to choose this every day because the world,

0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:36.440
<v Speaker 4>if you just let this slide, you'll lose the public lands.

0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:38.160
<v Speaker 4>It's just they're too valuable.

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:41.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, and the thing about other people, it's it's an

0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:46.120
<v Speaker 2>unfortunate imbalance. We have to show up for every single fight,

0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:49.239
<v Speaker 2>and we've got to win as many of them as

0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:51.560
<v Speaker 2>we can. And even if we win one of these fights,

0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 2>like you just said, there's gonna be another one next

0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 2>month or next year, five years down the road, are

0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:57.880
<v Speaker 2>fifty years down the road. These will continue over and

0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 2>over and over again. On the flip side, if we

0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:04.800
<v Speaker 2>lose one of these battles, we lose some piece of

0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:08.800
<v Speaker 2>land or some classification of whatever it is. You lose

0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:10.760
<v Speaker 2>one of these battles, you lose these places forever in

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:15.320
<v Speaker 2>many cases. So it's it's it's it's something we can't

0:33:16.560 --> 0:33:17.800
<v Speaker 2>take lately.

0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:20.800
<v Speaker 4>No, and for one of the dangers of living in

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:27.160
<v Speaker 4>a functioning country is that you become incredibly complacent. I

0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:31.080
<v Speaker 4>mean it's like I would I often I oftn ask

0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:35.160
<v Speaker 4>people to imagine what the United States would be like.

0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 4>Say you're raising your grandchildren in a place where the

0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:42.000
<v Speaker 4>public lands have been that whole idea has been lost,

0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 4>and maybe you kept the national parks where you can

0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:46.960
<v Speaker 4>go if you you know you can't take your dog.

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 4>You gotta obey all the rules because everybody's there. You know,

0:33:51.640 --> 0:33:54.040
<v Speaker 4>you can't go out on the Blm Lands and walk

0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:57.960
<v Speaker 4>for a week. You can't go out in the Missouri

0:33:58.000 --> 0:34:02.760
<v Speaker 4>Breaks of Montana and and go illk hunting without paying

0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 4>or getting permission. You know, you can't float the Missouri

0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:09.920
<v Speaker 4>River in camp I just ask people. You can't go

0:34:10.000 --> 0:34:13.400
<v Speaker 4>to the Sipsy Wilderness in Alabama or the Bienville National

0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:17.120
<v Speaker 4>Forest in Mississippi and just go down to the creek

0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:20.279
<v Speaker 4>with the kids. You gotta either pay or you got

0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:23.879
<v Speaker 4>to own it. I ask people all the time, what

0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:27.240
<v Speaker 4>would that would your country? How would that affect you? Well,

0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:30.040
<v Speaker 4>for a growing number of people, mark they don't care.

0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:33.360
<v Speaker 4>They don't go outside. They're own their game boys or

0:34:33.400 --> 0:34:38.040
<v Speaker 4>whatever you call it. And you know, and they don't care.

0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:44.279
<v Speaker 4>But for us, for the people who know, and the

0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:48.520
<v Speaker 4>people who know what our country, the beauty of our country,

0:34:48.560 --> 0:34:54.000
<v Speaker 4>American dirt, right, American water, American mountains. This is how

0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:56.160
<v Speaker 4>you get to experience this. This is where the rich

0:34:56.200 --> 0:34:59.080
<v Speaker 4>and the poor they all get the same. This is

0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:01.920
<v Speaker 4>America to me, and it's not just to me.

0:35:02.760 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And you know, I think there's a lot of

0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:15.560
<v Speaker 2>different parts of our American society, government, political system that

0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>feel very out of our hands, that fear feel out

0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:23.399
<v Speaker 2>of our control, that feel so far above us and

0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 2>what well, yes, yes that is true. But my point being,

0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I personally don't feel like I have much influence over

0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:36.680
<v Speaker 2>or could really change something when it comes to let's say,

0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:41.200
<v Speaker 2>artificial intelligence policy and how that's going to impact the

0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:44.279
<v Speaker 2>future of our government and defense system and privacy matters,

0:35:44.360 --> 0:35:50.080
<v Speaker 2>let's say, but public lands and wildlife. Actually, we have

0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:55.239
<v Speaker 2>some pretty strong tangible means to influence decisions there. There

0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:59.200
<v Speaker 2>are there are systems in place, and it's it's really

0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:04.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's still huge, but it's still relatively approachable

0:36:04.320 --> 0:36:07.800
<v Speaker 2>enough that our voice is actually mattered. There are clear,

0:36:07.960 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 2>simple things we can do that can help, Like, we

0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>can change this. This is a part of our country

0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:18.640
<v Speaker 2>that we should not feel nihilistic about because we actually

0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:21.239
<v Speaker 2>can change the narrative.

0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:28.400
<v Speaker 4>And we have since eighteen ninety one podcast I was

0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:30.799
<v Speaker 4>looked up. They had this guy, I think it was

0:36:30.800 --> 0:36:33.440
<v Speaker 4>in the twenties. They were the Week's Act had been

0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:36.040
<v Speaker 4>passed nineteen eleven, which allowed the federal government to buy

0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.680
<v Speaker 4>like logged out and abandoned lands in the East. Right,

0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:42.399
<v Speaker 4>they wanted their own national forests, and they had this guy,

0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:46.080
<v Speaker 4>Uncle Joe Kennon. He was a Senator from Illinois, and

0:36:46.160 --> 0:36:48.799
<v Speaker 4>every time anybody brought up in Congress that you know,

0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:54.960
<v Speaker 4>to purchase like the Apalachical and National forests, he would say,

0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:59.239
<v Speaker 4>not one cent for scenery. And he would yell the

0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:03.359
<v Speaker 4>same thing over and over, rope and uh. And so

0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:07.120
<v Speaker 4>we have we have had this. We have had Uncle

0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:11.120
<v Speaker 4>Joe Cannon with us since eighteen ninety one. At least

0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.200
<v Speaker 4>we had him with the robber barons in Montana, you know,

0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:16.919
<v Speaker 4>who said those who follow us can damn well take

0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:19.920
<v Speaker 4>care of themselves and then like drink some kind of

0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.399
<v Speaker 4>like super good liquor, you know, and while making fun

0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:26.799
<v Speaker 4>of all the people like working in the mine. But

0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:30.200
<v Speaker 4>we've had these people forever, and I think of Uncle

0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:34.560
<v Speaker 4>Joe Cannon. They still set up the Bankhead National Forest

0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:39.240
<v Speaker 4>in Alabama, Appalachian in Florida, the White Mountains National Forest.

0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:42.560
<v Speaker 4>He was yelling not one ship for trainery while we

0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.120
<v Speaker 4>while the rest of us were getting all this beautiful

0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:52.120
<v Speaker 4>stuff done. Right. Yeah. So what's happened more recently that

0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:56.640
<v Speaker 4>I really want to see changed is that we have

0:37:56.760 --> 0:38:02.560
<v Speaker 4>thrown public lands and conservation and clean water and the

0:38:02.560 --> 0:38:05.920
<v Speaker 4>future of our hunting vision in a culture war basket

0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:10.640
<v Speaker 4>where somehow it landed on the left side when it

0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:11.960
<v Speaker 4>couldn't be no more.

0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:18.160
<v Speaker 6>The most destructive environmental regimes on earth have been communists

0:38:19.080 --> 0:38:23.600
<v Speaker 6>have been leftists, true, and like Pinochet, and Chili was

0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:25.239
<v Speaker 6>a right winger and he was pretty bad.

0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:29.040
<v Speaker 4>Rady gave away the really sold their rivers. But the

0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:32.879
<v Speaker 4>trick was authoritarian regimes on right or left have been

0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:37.920
<v Speaker 4>terrible for people's freedom and for the environment. But we

0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:40.839
<v Speaker 4>have got to get conservation in the public lands out

0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:44.839
<v Speaker 4>of the culture wars basket. And we it's not in

0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:46.719
<v Speaker 4>there for me, it's not in there for you, But

0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:49.360
<v Speaker 4>we've got to get them out, and we've got to

0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:52.600
<v Speaker 4>bring them in front of the two political parties and

0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:56.880
<v Speaker 4>say this is what we're gonna do, buddy, little little feller.

0:38:57.680 --> 0:39:01.440
<v Speaker 4>We're keeping the National Forest Bureau of Land Management lands.

0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:03.680
<v Speaker 4>We're keeping all of our public lands and our National

0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:08.480
<v Speaker 4>Wildlife refuges, which are unbelievable crown jewels. We're keeping all

0:39:08.520 --> 0:39:10.920
<v Speaker 4>that stuff. We're gonna have clean water to fish in

0:39:11.239 --> 0:39:14.279
<v Speaker 4>and drink and big, strong, healthy kids raised on big

0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:18.040
<v Speaker 4>clean air because this is America. And now you can

0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:21.200
<v Speaker 4>argue over how to achieve that yeah, boys and girls

0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:26.759
<v Speaker 4>in Congress. But that goal is one that is going

0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:30.520
<v Speaker 4>to be outside of your political like grooviness, whatever it

0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:32.839
<v Speaker 4>is you're doing with the big signs where you're taking

0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:36.959
<v Speaker 4>the tax payer money and making big signs in Utah. Yeah,

0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:38.080
<v Speaker 4>and with that action.

0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.200
<v Speaker 2>And rather than this being an argument over is this

0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:43.719
<v Speaker 2>a goal that you know one party is going to

0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:45.920
<v Speaker 2>pursue and one's not. How about we argue over the

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:48.840
<v Speaker 2>solutions rather than like doesn't matter, because it matters. We

0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:50.880
<v Speaker 2>have to make it known to both parties that this

0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:53.279
<v Speaker 2>matters to us. And then yeah, let's get the right

0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:56.160
<v Speaker 2>side and the left side to then debate and argue

0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:59.400
<v Speaker 2>and you know, butt heads over the right ways to

0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:03.399
<v Speaker 2>get there. But when it's all on one side, we're

0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:03.920
<v Speaker 2>in trouble.

0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:07.440
<v Speaker 4>We're in trouble. And it's not I mean, I just

0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:10.680
<v Speaker 4>don't think, well, I know people, people who know if

0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:13.880
<v Speaker 4>you fish or hunt, particularly, you know that you can't

0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:18.320
<v Speaker 4>do that without clean water and public lands and public access.

0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:22.560
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's not like some kind of theory. It's

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:27.359
<v Speaker 4>not abstract. And the other problem is is we inherited this.

0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:29.560
<v Speaker 4>I'm older than you are, but you and I have

0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:33.200
<v Speaker 4>come up in a time where we had these things

0:40:33.280 --> 0:40:37.200
<v Speaker 4>based on the work and hard fault battles of our forebears.

0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:40.759
<v Speaker 4>I mean, the same kind of way we fought King George,

0:40:42.080 --> 0:40:45.080
<v Speaker 4>like we got this, we don't really have the right

0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:47.440
<v Speaker 4>to go, like, ah, it's just too much, you know,

0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:49.640
<v Speaker 4>like Beavis and butthead that thing where they were going

0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:51.560
<v Speaker 4>to save the people in the burning airplane but they

0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:54.200
<v Speaker 4>couldn't get the door opened, and he goes, he go

0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:57.080
<v Speaker 4>Beavis says, a, this is too hard, and the other

0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:00.120
<v Speaker 4>guy goes, yes, something's hard, it's not worth doing, and

0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:04.480
<v Speaker 4>they just leave and the planet bloods up. It's like

0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:09.560
<v Speaker 4>we inherited something wonderful, yeah, and we just can't. It

0:41:09.600 --> 0:41:11.040
<v Speaker 4>ain't gonna go on my watch.

0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:15.920
<v Speaker 2>No, so so it I'm I'm happy that our conversation

0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:18.160
<v Speaker 2>today is one that has some good news, which is

0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:20.279
<v Speaker 2>that this lawsuit that was still concerning for a lot

0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:23.439
<v Speaker 2>of people has been thrown out, so that battle was won.

0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:26.359
<v Speaker 2>We got you know, that gopher was knocked on the head.

0:41:26.920 --> 0:41:29.960
<v Speaker 4>That's yeah, that gopher. There's many other gophers coming.

0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:32.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, some more gophers coming, right. It seems like this

0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:35.439
<v Speaker 2>is a sign of more to come. Can you can

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.239
<v Speaker 2>you can you elaborate a little bit of what you

0:41:38.280 --> 0:41:40.279
<v Speaker 2>think might be coming next or what we need to

0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:44.239
<v Speaker 2>be keeping an eye out, because it seems like this

0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:46.319
<v Speaker 2>is not an anomaly, right right.

0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:51.400
<v Speaker 4>So the the problem with politics in the United States

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:55.719
<v Speaker 4>right now is that it's become oversimplified, you know, And

0:41:55.960 --> 0:41:58.279
<v Speaker 4>that's true, and in this public land so that the

0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:00.480
<v Speaker 4>public land thing should not be a political issue, but

0:42:00.600 --> 0:42:05.919
<v Speaker 4>it is. So what I think is coming is that

0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:10.640
<v Speaker 4>we are going to see more and more defunding of

0:42:10.680 --> 0:42:13.640
<v Speaker 4>the agencies that manage these lands. I know that the

0:42:13.760 --> 0:42:18.040
<v Speaker 4>wildlife refuges are kind of in funding crisis now, and

0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:20.920
<v Speaker 4>you're gonna see more and more. It's it's there's actually

0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:25.120
<v Speaker 4>a strategy here that's been going on since the seventies eighties,

0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:30.000
<v Speaker 4>where it's called defund and decry. So Congress doesn't allogate

0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:32.640
<v Speaker 4>the money to the to the say the US Forest

0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:36.640
<v Speaker 4>Service or the Forest Service has to spend all its

0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:39.680
<v Speaker 4>money on fires that doesn't get any more, and then

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:43.480
<v Speaker 4>there's no trail work done, and then there's no there's

0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:47.800
<v Speaker 4>no creek restoration work done, there's no logging clean up done,

0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:51.720
<v Speaker 4>and people go like the the campground isn't clean enough,

0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:55.279
<v Speaker 4>and people go, this is ridiculous. I didn't bring my

0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:58.680
<v Speaker 4>family out here to look at a turned over outhouse.

0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:01.640
<v Speaker 4>And then you say, then somebody goes, you know, what

0:43:01.680 --> 0:43:04.239
<v Speaker 4>would really be good is if they didn't have this

0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:07.520
<v Speaker 4>far service stuff anyway, because they're not doing the job,

0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:11.479
<v Speaker 4>are they so? And that's what is that. I see

0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:15.640
<v Speaker 4>that coming big time, and and I see overcrowding of

0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:18.760
<v Speaker 4>public lands. I thought it was gonna bring more constituents

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:22.879
<v Speaker 4>in just to celebrate public lands. But in places overcrowded

0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:25.960
<v Speaker 4>on public lands, like during the COVID years year or

0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:29.400
<v Speaker 4>whatever that was, uh, people are going, man, this is awful.

0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:34.920
<v Speaker 4>There's too many people. And so I see that people

0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:37.920
<v Speaker 4>the ones who want to divest us of the public lands,

0:43:38.520 --> 0:43:42.520
<v Speaker 4>they're gonna be getting working the budgets down and they're

0:43:42.600 --> 0:43:47.520
<v Speaker 4>gonna be pointing out every instance of mismanagement and then going,

0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:49.799
<v Speaker 4>wouldn't it be good if like you didn't even have

0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:50.520
<v Speaker 4>this mansion?

0:43:51.120 --> 0:44:07.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, you know, like you said, politics has unfortunately

0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:11.200
<v Speaker 2>gotten I guess I don't know how to describe it.

0:44:11.160 --> 0:44:14.600
<v Speaker 3>But politics are tribal.

0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:17.759
<v Speaker 2>They raise a lot of emotions that you get these

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:22.520
<v Speaker 2>like team kind of ideas where if you identify as

0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:24.759
<v Speaker 2>a Republican or identify as a Democrat, you feel like

0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:28.480
<v Speaker 2>you're kind of you have to take everything in that bucket, right.

0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:31.400
<v Speaker 2>But if you were to look at the administration coming

0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:36.520
<v Speaker 2>in here next week and set everything else aside, everything

0:44:36.560 --> 0:44:40.600
<v Speaker 2>else that might that they're doing good, every decision that

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:42.600
<v Speaker 2>we might be in supportive and if you look simply

0:44:42.680 --> 0:44:45.080
<v Speaker 2>at what happened last time around when it comes to

0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.600
<v Speaker 2>public lands, there are a series of trends which I

0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:50.520
<v Speaker 2>think fall in line with what you just said. I mean,

0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.279
<v Speaker 2>for example, last time the guy put in charge of

0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:56.120
<v Speaker 2>the Bureau of Land Management was one of the most

0:44:56.160 --> 0:45:00.000
<v Speaker 2>prominent folks speaking out against public lands, speaking out about

0:45:00.239 --> 0:45:01.960
<v Speaker 2>disposing of public lands, and that guy was put in

0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:05.279
<v Speaker 2>charge of the public lands last time. The playbook was

0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:08.520
<v Speaker 2>written by this guy again for the upcoming administration on

0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:11.200
<v Speaker 2>how to get rid of public lands, how to like

0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:16.719
<v Speaker 2>you said, defund, decry, etc. There was this death of

0:45:16.760 --> 0:45:20.160
<v Speaker 2>a thousand cuts that was taking place over the course

0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:22.160
<v Speaker 2>of that four years, where you saw many of our

0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:26.960
<v Speaker 2>national monuments significantly reduced in size, like Bear's Ears, where

0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I know you spend a bunch of time recently, Ascalante,

0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:34.279
<v Speaker 2>you saw some of some very special places, there's been

0:45:34.280 --> 0:45:36.319
<v Speaker 2>a lot of conversation around whether they are the right

0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:41.239
<v Speaker 2>place for really risky mining projects, things like you know

0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:45.520
<v Speaker 2>the Boundary Waters area where that was opened up possibly

0:45:45.560 --> 0:45:48.759
<v Speaker 2>for leases, and then most recently that was a moratorium

0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:50.400
<v Speaker 2>was put in place, but there we might see that

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:53.840
<v Speaker 2>opened up again. Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge,

0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:58.400
<v Speaker 2>an incredible iconic landscape of America, has been debated for

0:45:58.440 --> 0:46:00.520
<v Speaker 2>many decades, and whether or not that's to be opened

0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:04.400
<v Speaker 2>up for drilling never was opened up until this last administration.

0:46:05.960 --> 0:46:10.320
<v Speaker 2>The Roadless Rule something that's protected these last roadless areas

0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:13.480
<v Speaker 2>across our national forests that was rescinded in the areas

0:46:13.560 --> 0:46:16.520
<v Speaker 2>such as the Tongest National Forest. So there's there's all

0:46:16.560 --> 0:46:20.160
<v Speaker 2>of these different examples where public lands and healthy wild

0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:22.640
<v Speaker 2>places were kind of slashed away at, picked away at,

0:46:22.640 --> 0:46:27.160
<v Speaker 2>picked away at, picked away at, defunded, et cetera. Everything

0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:31.640
<v Speaker 2>else aside in this one arena, there's a lot of

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:35.160
<v Speaker 2>sign for concern based on what happened last time around.

0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:38.759
<v Speaker 4>Yes, do you expect a.

0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:41.759
<v Speaker 2>That to continue as it was? Do you think it's

0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:47.200
<v Speaker 2>going to accelerate given the fact that there's not a

0:46:47.200 --> 0:46:48.600
<v Speaker 2>second time around they're shooting for.

0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:49.680
<v Speaker 3>This is like, this is it?

0:46:50.080 --> 0:46:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Do you have any other thoughts predictions on as far

0:46:53.680 --> 0:46:56.320
<v Speaker 2>as what we need to be keeping tabs on, prepared

0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:58.200
<v Speaker 2>to fight back on anything like that.

0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:06.719
<v Speaker 4>I do so. One the last one twenty sixteen through

0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:11.319
<v Speaker 4>we saw the rescinding of the monuments in Utah, right,

0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.160
<v Speaker 4>so there was a weird quid pro quo there where

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 4>Utah kind of delivered for President Trump and so they

0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:25.719
<v Speaker 4>got these things in return. And that's a big can

0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:28.200
<v Speaker 4>of worms. It's really interesting. I think people should that

0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:30.279
<v Speaker 4>are listening to this should be looking at that, like,

0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:33.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, you deliver so x number the majority of

0:47:33.840 --> 0:47:36.279
<v Speaker 4>the vote and you'll get this. You know, did the

0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:39.799
<v Speaker 4>American people want the reduction of Bears, Ears or Grand

0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 4>Staircase Escalante? They did not, and they said that repeatedly,

0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:46.560
<v Speaker 4>but they got that. That's what happened to us anyway.

0:47:46.680 --> 0:47:49.960
<v Speaker 4>So in a sense that was a but in a

0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:52.360
<v Speaker 4>sense that was a quid pro quo to the Utah.

0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:56.839
<v Speaker 4>So I think that's really repulsive and I don't think

0:47:56.840 --> 0:47:59.719
<v Speaker 4>that the American people are going to accept that. But

0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:03.440
<v Speaker 4>like the appointment of William Parker Penley as head of

0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:08.000
<v Speaker 4>the BLM, who is this fossil from the early Reagan

0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:11.480
<v Speaker 4>years who was so scandal ridden even then as a

0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:15.319
<v Speaker 4>young man that he went out with James Watt back

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:17.799
<v Speaker 4>in those days. Right, But so so there was this

0:48:17.920 --> 0:48:22.080
<v Speaker 4>fossil there that they found because they were, as President

0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:26.160
<v Speaker 4>Trump said, the first time, we were highly unprepared to win.

0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:31.080
<v Speaker 4>We were really not prepared. We didn't understand so much

0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:34.320
<v Speaker 4>of what we wanted to do during those four years.

0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:37.960
<v Speaker 4>Whether you agree with that or not. Right, So, on

0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:42.239
<v Speaker 4>this administration this time, as my wife said this the

0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:45.160
<v Speaker 4>other day, the American people voted to kick over the

0:48:45.200 --> 0:48:49.520
<v Speaker 4>apple cart for a lot of different reasons. Yeah, and

0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:53.759
<v Speaker 4>a lot of apples have spilled out, and we're going

0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:58.160
<v Speaker 4>to determine. Now, this is way different than the first administration,

0:48:58.440 --> 0:49:04.560
<v Speaker 4>although it's so similar in that it is radically pro business. Okay,

0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:08.560
<v Speaker 4>so if you can make money mining out right outside

0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:11.200
<v Speaker 4>the boundary waters, that's going to be on the table,

0:49:12.520 --> 0:49:16.480
<v Speaker 4>and the America people will be asked to engage deeply

0:49:16.760 --> 0:49:22.040
<v Speaker 4>to say we're pro business as well, we understand these things.

0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:26.040
<v Speaker 4>To have a multinational global company come and put in

0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:28.960
<v Speaker 4>jeopardy to boundary waters, it's not our dear idea of

0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:33.440
<v Speaker 4>good business. We're not going to do that, Okay. Ambler

0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:37.840
<v Speaker 4>Road in Alaska probably not good business to open that

0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:40.680
<v Speaker 4>up again. I would ask anybody to listen to the

0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:43.320
<v Speaker 4>podcast I did with John Leshie about the eighteen seventy

0:49:43.320 --> 0:49:47.640
<v Speaker 4>two mining law. We're talking about expanding mining on public

0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:51.120
<v Speaker 4>lands in the United States East and West under a

0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:54.200
<v Speaker 4>law written in eighteen seventy two to encourage a guy

0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:57.920
<v Speaker 4>with a pickaxe and a burrow to go grab public

0:49:58.000 --> 0:49:59.800
<v Speaker 4>land to make it his own and dig a hole

0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:03.560
<v Speaker 4>and find something that we needed. That law has to

0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:08.600
<v Speaker 4>be reformed, repealed, rescinded before we can do mining in

0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:12.120
<v Speaker 4>America in a in a sensible fashion of good business.

0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:15.960
<v Speaker 4>So the fact that that law is not on the

0:50:16.040 --> 0:50:20.680
<v Speaker 4>table here, that's very concerning. People should be working on

0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:24.640
<v Speaker 4>that now. The American people should demand that American minerals

0:50:24.840 --> 0:50:28.160
<v Speaker 4>are used for by American companies to produce American jobs

0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:32.000
<v Speaker 4>and American resources. All right. So there's going to be

0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:37.000
<v Speaker 4>a radical pro business emphasis in the Trump administration, Okay,

0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:42.920
<v Speaker 4>but I myself am not afraid. I think that we

0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.880
<v Speaker 4>should be wary, and we should say that's good business

0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:48.480
<v Speaker 4>and that's not good business, and we will stand for this,

0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:51.960
<v Speaker 4>and we will not stand for this, and we're going

0:50:52.000 --> 0:50:55.200
<v Speaker 4>to be able to do that. And for instance, the

0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:59.880
<v Speaker 4>government efficiency or whatever, the department of whatever that extraining

0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:04.080
<v Speaker 4>this extracurricular thing is, we could use that mark, We

0:51:04.120 --> 0:51:07.600
<v Speaker 4>could use that, We could use that in public lands management.

0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:12.080
<v Speaker 4>How do we make public lands management better, more efficient?

0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:16.640
<v Speaker 4>How do we get local communities employed finn and timber

0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:20.759
<v Speaker 4>in the Tongus? How do we get local communities employed

0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:24.319
<v Speaker 4>restoring creeks in the bitter Root after those fires? Right?

0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:28.040
<v Speaker 4>Because we are not doing that right now and it's

0:51:28.120 --> 0:51:28.680
<v Speaker 4>not good.

0:51:29.239 --> 0:51:31.760
<v Speaker 3>Doesn't that come back though, to the budget issues?

0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:35.680
<v Speaker 4>So much of it we don't on prioritization of the budget.

0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:38.240
<v Speaker 4>I noticed that we have lots of budget for certain

0:51:38.280 --> 0:51:44.240
<v Speaker 4>things that I don't particularly think are healthy. I'm saying,

0:51:44.360 --> 0:51:46.439
<v Speaker 4>like the American people are going to have to say,

0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:51.520
<v Speaker 4>you know, creek restoration on public lands is a priority

0:51:51.640 --> 0:51:55.600
<v Speaker 4>for me, and you can do whatever you want with

0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:58.719
<v Speaker 4>this money, but we would like to see it allocated

0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:03.399
<v Speaker 4>in this way more efficiently as well. You know, I'm

0:52:03.400 --> 0:52:07.880
<v Speaker 4>not sure that that building new RV parks is really

0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:12.360
<v Speaker 4>a great use of the money. For instance, Yeah, when

0:52:12.560 --> 0:52:16.520
<v Speaker 4>you have areas where you could, you could fence off

0:52:16.640 --> 0:52:20.879
<v Speaker 4>rapoia in places and create incredible fisheries in clean water

0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:25.600
<v Speaker 4>down Street when you have just all of this work

0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:28.839
<v Speaker 4>that we could be do with. So I just I'm

0:52:28.880 --> 0:52:31.040
<v Speaker 4>not afraid of this. I may turn out to be

0:52:31.640 --> 0:52:36.640
<v Speaker 4>a Pollyanna or overly optimistic, but I believe that when

0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:39.560
<v Speaker 4>the American people decided to upset the apple cart here

0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:43.160
<v Speaker 4>that it doesn't mean that we want filthier water and

0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:46.359
<v Speaker 4>no public lands and and all of us to have

0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:50.560
<v Speaker 4>our all our rare earth materials stolen by some company

0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:51.560
<v Speaker 4>from Chili.

0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:56.759
<v Speaker 2>Would you would you say, though, given what seems to

0:52:56.760 --> 0:53:00.880
<v Speaker 2>be a pretty clear, as you said, probi business emphasis

0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:06.239
<v Speaker 2>for the next four years, very pro business, if we

0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:10.440
<v Speaker 2>were to grow complacent and bury our heads and our

0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:14.400
<v Speaker 2>phones and our Netflix shows, and or just being out

0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:16.359
<v Speaker 2>in the woods by ourselves, hunting and fishing and just

0:53:16.560 --> 0:53:18.440
<v Speaker 2>doing our own thing, if we were to do that

0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:21.840
<v Speaker 2>and not engage, whether it's going to come up in

0:53:21.880 --> 0:53:26.520
<v Speaker 2>the next four years with this radical, very pro business agenda,

0:53:27.040 --> 0:53:29.200
<v Speaker 2>would it be fair to say that we could.

0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:31.520
<v Speaker 3>Expect to see a lot of these special places.

0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:33.840
<v Speaker 2>In danger if we don't make sure we're in it.

0:53:34.360 --> 0:53:38.440
<v Speaker 4>One hundred and Not only that, but they're the the

0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:41.799
<v Speaker 4>the powers that wont to take over public lands and

0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:46.440
<v Speaker 4>sell them to their wealthy friends. Our ascendant right now, Yeah,

0:53:46.640 --> 0:53:50.440
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I mean the I mean, we have probably

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:54.400
<v Speaker 4>the most billionaires making policy that we've ever had, and

0:53:54.440 --> 0:53:58.080
<v Speaker 4>the few is like normal people. So you're gonna have

0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:01.000
<v Speaker 4>to counter that. But there's three hun undred and forty

0:54:01.080 --> 0:54:06.160
<v Speaker 4>something million Americans. Let me, I have a quote that

0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:14.000
<v Speaker 4>I always use, and it's perfect for this thing. The

0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:16.319
<v Speaker 4>struggle may be a moral one, or it may be

0:54:16.360 --> 0:54:19.280
<v Speaker 4>a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical,

0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:23.120
<v Speaker 4>but there will be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without

0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:27.160
<v Speaker 4>a demand. It never did, and it never did. Will

0:54:27.800 --> 0:54:30.719
<v Speaker 4>find out just what any people will quietly submit to,

0:54:30.960 --> 0:54:33.919
<v Speaker 4>And you have found out the exact measure of injustice

0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:38.080
<v Speaker 4>and wrong which will be imposed upon them. And these

0:54:38.120 --> 0:54:41.520
<v Speaker 4>will continue until they're resisted with words or blows or both.

0:54:42.120 --> 0:54:45.040
<v Speaker 4>The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of

0:54:45.080 --> 0:54:49.240
<v Speaker 4>those whom they oppress. That was Frederick Douglass talking about

0:54:49.239 --> 0:54:53.720
<v Speaker 4>slavery in the South. Wow. So that's what I think.

0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:58.600
<v Speaker 4>If you are not willing to stand up, or if

0:54:58.640 --> 0:55:02.960
<v Speaker 4>you're watching and the running on the treadmill at the

0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:06.919
<v Speaker 4>gym watching Fox News. They're making you think there's only

0:55:06.960 --> 0:55:12.520
<v Speaker 4>two kinds of Americans and they hate each other and

0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:15.200
<v Speaker 4>they won't ever agree on anything. And I don't know

0:55:15.280 --> 0:55:18.799
<v Speaker 4>why the other side does it too, I guess, but

0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:22.440
<v Speaker 4>I don't know why they're what motive we have for

0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:27.560
<v Speaker 4>dividing the American people, But if we remain this divided,

0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:30.960
<v Speaker 4>we'll lose the public lands and the conservation that supports

0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:35.799
<v Speaker 4>hunting and fishing. We shouldn't be divided over that.

0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:44.440
<v Speaker 2>We have talked about various permutations of this issue, you know,

0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:46.160
<v Speaker 2>at least over the last decade. You and I I

0:55:46.200 --> 0:55:48.279
<v Speaker 2>know what You've talked about many many other people over

0:55:48.320 --> 0:55:52.720
<v Speaker 2>many decades. So now in twenty twenty five, we're quarter

0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:56.240
<v Speaker 2>of the way through this new millennia.

0:55:56.360 --> 0:56:02.799
<v Speaker 3>I guess it'd be or sorry century. What can we

0:56:02.880 --> 0:56:04.360
<v Speaker 3>do now?

0:56:04.480 --> 0:56:09.920
<v Speaker 2>What are the most positive productive means for not just

0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:13.480
<v Speaker 2>enduring what might be coming, but also influencing in a

0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:18.160
<v Speaker 2>positive way. What's the battle cry? What's the game plan

0:56:18.520 --> 0:56:20.000
<v Speaker 2>here of these coming years?

0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:25.680
<v Speaker 4>I think we're going to have to So the energy

0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:29.400
<v Speaker 4>is on the right wing at the moment, and we

0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:36.640
<v Speaker 4>as conservatives or whatever you political label you want to

0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:40.319
<v Speaker 4>put on most hunters and fishermen are going to have

0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:45.840
<v Speaker 4>to get through to the elected people, the people we

0:56:45.960 --> 0:56:50.839
<v Speaker 4>vote for, that these things are priorities and that they

0:56:50.960 --> 0:56:55.840
<v Speaker 4>will not be thrown in some basket of culture war topics.

0:56:56.640 --> 0:57:01.239
<v Speaker 4>That these are the wildlife refuge system. It's so wonderful,

0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:03.960
<v Speaker 4>like it is such a crown jewel of America. The

0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:08.319
<v Speaker 4>national forests are so important to us, our us as

0:57:08.480 --> 0:57:13.360
<v Speaker 4>as Americans, our identity, our freedom. Okay, these are not

0:57:13.880 --> 0:57:19.320
<v Speaker 4>political footballs. And so we're going to have to get

0:57:19.400 --> 0:57:23.880
<v Speaker 4>through into this pro business community that we that there

0:57:23.960 --> 0:57:29.000
<v Speaker 4>are certain things we will not be, we will not accept,

0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:34.840
<v Speaker 4>you know. I mean this is another topic. But we

0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:38.440
<v Speaker 4>we have huge success stories all the way back to

0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:43.200
<v Speaker 4>eighteen ninety one on conservation in America, and huge the

0:57:43.200 --> 0:57:46.480
<v Speaker 4>dextervation of the bison, the loss of almost all the

0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:50.440
<v Speaker 4>waterfowl that you know. So we we had these huge

0:57:50.440 --> 0:57:55.200
<v Speaker 4>failures and these enormous successes, and we're doing both right

0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:58.640
<v Speaker 4>now again. But we're like we're failing with clean water

0:57:58.760 --> 0:58:05.880
<v Speaker 4>throughout the Midwest, really failing. And we let the Clean

0:58:05.960 --> 0:58:10.120
<v Speaker 4>Water Act be trimmed back to its original definition in

0:58:10.200 --> 0:58:13.560
<v Speaker 4>nineteen seventy two to the point where we're failing to

0:58:13.640 --> 0:58:16.919
<v Speaker 4>protect the clean water that supports fishing and swimming and

0:58:17.040 --> 0:58:20.480
<v Speaker 4>all that. So we have these huge failures, and the

0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:25.000
<v Speaker 4>folks that we just elected are not the ideal people

0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:28.200
<v Speaker 4>to address that. Let's say that I'm going to be

0:58:28.400 --> 0:58:32.600
<v Speaker 4>very objective here. The folks that we just object elected.

0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:35.600
<v Speaker 4>Donald Trump, for instance, will tell you that he doesn't

0:58:35.640 --> 0:58:37.760
<v Speaker 4>know anything about that. That's what he told the Farm

0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:40.680
<v Speaker 4>Bureau when they rescinded the Waters of the US rule

0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:43.480
<v Speaker 4>last time. He said, I don't even know what it is,

0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:47.200
<v Speaker 4>but it's terrible, and you folks told me that we

0:58:47.240 --> 0:58:49.400
<v Speaker 4>don't want it, and so I'm getting rid of it.

0:58:49.760 --> 0:58:52.720
<v Speaker 4>He said the same thing about the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:56.880
<v Speaker 4>He said, nobody cares about this. It's open, right. So

0:58:57.400 --> 0:59:02.760
<v Speaker 4>obviously people didn't speak up and say that's not true.

0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:06.120
<v Speaker 4>We do care about it. And you may not support

0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:08.640
<v Speaker 4>the Waters of the US rule, but I'll bet you

0:59:08.680 --> 0:59:13.600
<v Speaker 4>don't support eating drinking blue green algae in de moins.

0:59:13.680 --> 0:59:19.400
<v Speaker 4>So these folks, I see this as an opportunity, mark totally.

0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:24.560
<v Speaker 4>I don't think somebody like Elon Musk is so focused

0:59:24.600 --> 0:59:27.520
<v Speaker 4>on Mars or Venus or whatever that planet they want

0:59:27.560 --> 0:59:29.800
<v Speaker 4>to go to, which is fine with me. I'm like,

0:59:29.920 --> 0:59:33.800
<v Speaker 4>have at it, man, little rockets, you know, like I

0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:37.400
<v Speaker 4>like smart people. Sure, right, But here's the thing. A

0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:40.120
<v Speaker 4>guy who's spending a lot of time thinking about Mars

0:59:40.200 --> 0:59:44.680
<v Speaker 4>and stuff, he's probably not thinking about the water fishing

0:59:44.720 --> 0:59:49.120
<v Speaker 4>in Des Moines, yes, or in Sioux Falls. And that's

0:59:49.200 --> 0:59:53.240
<v Speaker 4>our business and that's what we know. And so but

0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:57.440
<v Speaker 4>I would say this, I doubt that President Trump or

0:59:57.480 --> 1:00:02.960
<v Speaker 4>Elon Musk or vvak Ramus, I bet none of them

1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:05.880
<v Speaker 4>actually are going like, you know, what I really want

1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:09.160
<v Speaker 4>to do is get rid of the Talladega National Forest, right,

1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:11.560
<v Speaker 4>you know, you know what I bet i'd like to do.

1:00:11.600 --> 1:00:14.360
<v Speaker 4>I'd like to pollute mobile base so nobody can fish

1:00:14.400 --> 1:00:16.400
<v Speaker 4>in it or have a nice house on it. They're

1:00:16.400 --> 1:00:20.960
<v Speaker 4>not doing that. And these are jd Vance for instance,

1:00:21.000 --> 1:00:24.760
<v Speaker 4>when to Yale whatever, the guy has some education, he's

1:00:24.840 --> 1:00:30.040
<v Speaker 4>not gonna say that clean water is not important. So

1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:34.880
<v Speaker 4>it's up to us now to put some apples back

1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:38.240
<v Speaker 4>in this apple cart and say this apple's really important.

1:00:38.840 --> 1:00:42.240
<v Speaker 4>Don't let that one go down the hill. And I

1:00:42.320 --> 1:00:46.400
<v Speaker 4>honestly think that we're in a place where we could have,

1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:50.840
<v Speaker 4>We could effect positive change in the United States right

1:00:50.880 --> 1:00:53.680
<v Speaker 4>now that to me, we've been a little too complacent

1:00:53.760 --> 1:00:58.320
<v Speaker 4>to do. We've kind of rested on the laurels of

1:00:58.360 --> 1:01:02.320
<v Speaker 4>the nineteen seventies and a Wilderness Act of sixty four

1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:07.200
<v Speaker 4>and the dust bowl stuff. You know, that's what I think.

1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:10.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm pretty excited. Actually. I think it's a very dangerous

1:01:11.000 --> 1:01:14.000
<v Speaker 4>time for all the reasons you mentioned, and I think

1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:17.120
<v Speaker 4>that times of danger kind of make me feel better.

1:01:19.120 --> 1:01:27.160
<v Speaker 2>So what are some specific tactics or actions that we

1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:31.400
<v Speaker 2>as individuals can take to help make sure that we

1:01:31.480 --> 1:01:34.360
<v Speaker 2>grab this apple, put it back in the cart, and say, hey, folks,

1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:37.320
<v Speaker 2>this one's really important. Do not screw this one up,

1:01:37.440 --> 1:01:41.120
<v Speaker 2>give this one some tender love and care. Listen to us.

1:01:41.320 --> 1:01:43.840
<v Speaker 3>How do we actually do that?

1:01:44.000 --> 1:01:44.200
<v Speaker 4>Hell?

1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:48.200
<v Speaker 2>Because I it's an idea and it's a sentiment that

1:01:48.560 --> 1:01:50.560
<v Speaker 2>makes a lot of sense, But I think a lot

1:01:50.600 --> 1:01:52.960
<v Speaker 2>of folks then still wonder, like, well, what does that

1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:54.600
<v Speaker 2>mean to my daily life, or what does that mean

1:01:54.640 --> 1:01:57.000
<v Speaker 2>for me this week? Or how do why is an

1:01:57.000 --> 1:01:59.640
<v Speaker 2>individual in Des Moines, Iowa actually do that?

1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:04.240
<v Speaker 4>Well, I've decided and it's I do handle the podcast

1:02:04.360 --> 1:02:06.520
<v Speaker 4>or back undrenders and anglers. So maybe I have a

1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:10.840
<v Speaker 4>conflict of interest there, but I decided in the last

1:02:11.160 --> 1:02:14.120
<v Speaker 4>ten years looking, I've been writing this book for five

1:02:14.160 --> 1:02:16.120
<v Speaker 4>and a lot of the research was on how did

1:02:16.160 --> 1:02:17.960
<v Speaker 4>we get like how did you get the Clean Water

1:02:18.000 --> 1:02:23.439
<v Speaker 4>Act passed? You know? And one as a as a

1:02:23.440 --> 1:02:27.200
<v Speaker 4>as an individual, read books and listen to podcasts and

1:02:27.200 --> 1:02:29.960
<v Speaker 4>and and really concentrate on what it is that you

1:02:30.040 --> 1:02:35.320
<v Speaker 4>think is important in life. I'm this is kind of like, like,

1:02:35.320 --> 1:02:37.560
<v Speaker 4>like what this is. I wrote a piece for Field

1:02:37.560 --> 1:02:40.600
<v Speaker 4>and Stream years ago and it was in response to

1:02:40.960 --> 1:02:43.919
<v Speaker 4>unfettered energy development on their own plateau which I went

1:02:44.280 --> 1:02:46.640
<v Speaker 4>to see and I thought, this is not good, right

1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:49.160
<v Speaker 4>this We can get the energy without doing this right?

1:02:50.040 --> 1:02:52.280
<v Speaker 4>And uh, I wrote a piece called what do you

1:02:52.360 --> 1:02:56.080
<v Speaker 4>really believe in? And so number one, I'm going to

1:02:56.160 --> 1:02:58.920
<v Speaker 4>answer this as quickly as I can. What do I

1:02:58.960 --> 1:03:01.920
<v Speaker 4>really believe in? You know, like clean water and having

1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:04.920
<v Speaker 4>kids swimming and catching crawdads and a creek that doesn't

1:03:04.920 --> 1:03:09.160
<v Speaker 4>poison them, having public lands where I can go, like

1:03:09.240 --> 1:03:12.880
<v Speaker 4>a person can go hunting for a week or even

1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:15.479
<v Speaker 4>a day, or you could just take a six pack

1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:18.960
<v Speaker 4>of beer out and sit on the river, you know, right,

1:03:19.120 --> 1:03:22.120
<v Speaker 4>so I think that the hunters and fishermen are listening

1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:24.080
<v Speaker 4>to your podcast are going to say, I do believe

1:03:24.120 --> 1:03:27.200
<v Speaker 4>in these things. I believe in them strongly. And the

1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:29.880
<v Speaker 4>second thing, which it took me a while because I'm

1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:34.600
<v Speaker 4>kind of highly individualistic, was that old Hemingway thing from

1:03:34.960 --> 1:03:37.240
<v Speaker 4>to have and have not, where the guy says a

1:03:37.280 --> 1:03:41.080
<v Speaker 4>man alone just ain't got no chance. And the truth

1:03:41.200 --> 1:03:47.000
<v Speaker 4>is is Trout Unlimited backcountry hunters and anglers, Isaac Walton

1:03:47.080 --> 1:03:53.520
<v Speaker 4>League Ducks Unlimited to the Mix is probably the greatest

1:03:53.520 --> 1:03:56.720
<v Speaker 4>wetlands conservation group in the world. They all have problems.

1:03:56.720 --> 1:03:59.640
<v Speaker 4>They're running by human beings, and human beings are fallible, yes,

1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:09.520
<v Speaker 4>but Americans in large teams have really driven the positive

1:04:09.640 --> 1:04:15.760
<v Speaker 4>changes that we're talking about. And that I hate. I

1:04:15.800 --> 1:04:17.520
<v Speaker 4>don't hate to say it, I just it took me

1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:20.080
<v Speaker 4>a long time to get to this is you gotta

1:04:20.200 --> 1:04:24.200
<v Speaker 4>join with like minded brothers and sisters. And those numbers

1:04:24.760 --> 1:04:29.280
<v Speaker 4>equate to a politician going like sending the staff. We

1:04:29.360 --> 1:04:32.920
<v Speaker 4>got to meet these folks. Sorry, I don't want to

1:04:32.920 --> 1:04:37.000
<v Speaker 4>hear about clean water in Iowa, but there's like twenty

1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:39.920
<v Speaker 4>five thousand people who might not vote for me next time.

1:04:40.360 --> 1:04:43.120
<v Speaker 4>And then one of the old time politicians. I think

1:04:43.160 --> 1:04:46.440
<v Speaker 4>a guy told me this once in DC. He said, yeah,

1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:54.560
<v Speaker 4>it's a good idea, Now make me do it. That's it. Yeah,

1:04:54.600 --> 1:05:00.280
<v Speaker 4>And it's tough because used to be sportsman. In the

1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:04.600
<v Speaker 4>nineteen thirties, they had all of these local sportsmen groups

1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:07.360
<v Speaker 4>and Montana was full of them. I don't know about

1:05:07.360 --> 1:05:09.320
<v Speaker 4>where you grew up, if it was or not, but

1:05:09.760 --> 1:05:13.360
<v Speaker 4>Montana was full of them. Or Valley County Sportsmen, great

1:05:14.640 --> 1:05:17.760
<v Speaker 4>prickly pair of sportsmen, Hellgate hunters and anglers in Missoula,

1:05:18.320 --> 1:05:22.000
<v Speaker 4>and they were incredibly politically active on a statewide and

1:05:22.080 --> 1:05:25.800
<v Speaker 4>local level. And those they got older and older. I

1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.640
<v Speaker 4>would go to the meetings, you know, and everybody got

1:05:28.680 --> 1:05:32.760
<v Speaker 4>older and older, and then they just kind of they're

1:05:32.800 --> 1:05:36.160
<v Speaker 4>still around, some of them, but they've they've waned in power,

1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:40.000
<v Speaker 4>and so I would like to see that again. But

1:05:40.040 --> 1:05:41.760
<v Speaker 4>I don't think we're gonna see that because people are

1:05:41.760 --> 1:05:45.919
<v Speaker 4>so busy, man, Like you got little kids. My kids

1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:49.200
<v Speaker 4>are grown and I'm still like like college tuition. Oh,

1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:53.600
<v Speaker 4>and everybody's busy, but it's not. You're not too busy

1:05:53.640 --> 1:05:56.160
<v Speaker 4>really to join like back huntry hunters and anglers or

1:05:56.600 --> 1:06:01.720
<v Speaker 4>or Trout Unlimited or something. Yeah, and they're thereby amplify

1:06:02.200 --> 1:06:07.040
<v Speaker 4>your voice, multiply your voice. That's my answer. I guess. Yeah,

1:06:07.840 --> 1:06:12.200
<v Speaker 4>what is the public lands equivalent to that? Like National

1:06:12.240 --> 1:06:13.080
<v Speaker 4>Forest Foundation?

1:06:13.920 --> 1:06:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, like you said, BHA is about as

1:06:18.080 --> 1:06:22.120
<v Speaker 2>good of a modern day version of these sportsman's clubs too,

1:06:22.200 --> 1:06:24.400
<v Speaker 2>right with Pine Knights and things like that. Like that's

1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:27.080
<v Speaker 2>that's the best example I've seen of the younger crowd

1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:29.600
<v Speaker 2>activating as a community.

1:06:30.880 --> 1:06:33.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I would let me add this to And you've

1:06:33.320 --> 1:06:35.640
<v Speaker 4>done some of this, I've done some I've done some

1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:39.240
<v Speaker 4>of it, But I would like to do more volunteering

1:06:39.320 --> 1:06:43.560
<v Speaker 4>with like these BHA things and in meeting people of

1:06:43.720 --> 1:06:46.720
<v Speaker 4>like mind. Ye. I gotta tell you. I was. I

1:06:46.760 --> 1:06:49.640
<v Speaker 4>was feeling very beat down the other day, and I

1:06:49.720 --> 1:06:53.560
<v Speaker 4>was working on a chapter in my book which involved Alabama.

1:06:54.240 --> 1:06:56.640
<v Speaker 4>And I called a young guy there who's a biologist

1:06:56.680 --> 1:07:00.560
<v Speaker 4>and a fanatical hunting and fision guy, and he was

1:07:00.600 --> 1:07:02.880
<v Speaker 4>on his way to waterfowl hunting up in North Alabama,

1:07:02.960 --> 1:07:04.200
<v Speaker 4>and it happened to be in a place that I

1:07:04.240 --> 1:07:06.880
<v Speaker 4>went to in high school. And we got it on

1:07:06.920 --> 1:07:09.040
<v Speaker 4>Google Earth and we looked at it, and I felt

1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:15.920
<v Speaker 4>better for three days after just talking with Joe Jenkins

1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:20.800
<v Speaker 4>and his enthusiasm for going hunting down there, and I

1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:24.040
<v Speaker 4>realized that there's all these people who love the same

1:07:24.040 --> 1:07:28.200
<v Speaker 4>things I do and are are really motivated to fight

1:07:28.280 --> 1:07:31.720
<v Speaker 4>for them, and that you meet those It's like those

1:07:31.720 --> 1:07:35.480
<v Speaker 4>fence removal things they had in Colorado and in eastern

1:07:35.520 --> 1:07:42.120
<v Speaker 4>Montana while wetlands restoration planting projects. It's, yeah, we gotta

1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:44.920
<v Speaker 4>we gotta seek out people of like mind and begin

1:07:45.040 --> 1:07:46.040
<v Speaker 4>to form tribe.

1:07:48.360 --> 1:07:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, get that snowball rolling and those little local volunteer

1:07:53.240 --> 1:07:56.800
<v Speaker 2>efforts might not save the world today, but those are

1:07:56.800 --> 1:08:00.320
<v Speaker 2>those start points. And like you said, you bring community together,

1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:05.680
<v Speaker 2>you establish new connections, you build energy off of each other,

1:08:05.720 --> 1:08:08.760
<v Speaker 2>you gain your tank is refueled by being around other

1:08:08.920 --> 1:08:14.120
<v Speaker 2>like minded people. Yeah, so such a great example.

1:08:14.040 --> 1:08:16.439
<v Speaker 4>You know, stories and then and I just saw it

1:08:16.520 --> 1:08:18.519
<v Speaker 4>like if I were, if I were really young now,

1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:20.880
<v Speaker 4>I'd be volunteering on a lot of those to try

1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:23.400
<v Speaker 4>to find people of like mine. Man.

1:08:23.760 --> 1:08:27.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that was such a great You know, I've

1:08:27.640 --> 1:08:31.439
<v Speaker 2>done ten of those over the last twenty four months

1:08:31.520 --> 1:08:33.680
<v Speaker 2>or so for the Working for Wildlife tour, and that

1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:36.639
<v Speaker 2>was my biggest takeaway from that was just the power

1:08:36.800 --> 1:08:40.960
<v Speaker 2>of bringing these people together that all care about this stuff,

1:08:41.520 --> 1:08:44.920
<v Speaker 2>and so many signs of hope just by being around

1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:49.200
<v Speaker 2>each other and hearing stories and doing something actual, tangible,

1:08:50.040 --> 1:08:53.439
<v Speaker 2>positive right here and now you're making a positi difference.

1:08:53.520 --> 1:08:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Right now, you are regaining agency. We talked earlier about

1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:59.479
<v Speaker 2>how so much feels outside of our control. But when

1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:02.280
<v Speaker 2>you're out there on the ground planting a tree alongside

1:09:02.439 --> 1:09:05.240
<v Speaker 2>another guy or girl who also loves hunting or fishing

1:09:05.240 --> 1:09:07.760
<v Speaker 2>in the outdoors, you can't help but feel a little

1:09:07.800 --> 1:09:10.720
<v Speaker 2>bit better, and you can't help but be inspired to

1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:12.240
<v Speaker 2>do a little bit better the next time too.

1:09:12.800 --> 1:09:14.840
<v Speaker 4>I mean that's how we've been doing it since cave

1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:19.080
<v Speaker 4>man days, right, Yeah, Like get that mammoth and then

1:09:19.280 --> 1:09:22.400
<v Speaker 4>everybody think happy everybody was when you got the mammoth,

1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:24.479
<v Speaker 4>and like you're clapping him on the back. You might

1:09:24.520 --> 1:09:27.360
<v Speaker 4>hate this guy, you know when you're not hunting, but

1:09:27.400 --> 1:09:29.439
<v Speaker 4>you're going like, man, what a good shot with that

1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:32.920
<v Speaker 4>at laddle, right, Like this is community and the and

1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:35.880
<v Speaker 4>the ladies are all happy. They're like hauling the meat back,

1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:39.439
<v Speaker 4>you know, and it's like this is community, this is tribe.

1:09:39.439 --> 1:09:44.000
<v Speaker 4>It's something in us. It's as old as human beings, right, yeah,

1:09:44.040 --> 1:09:46.320
<v Speaker 4>And I was I was following y'all when you were

1:09:46.360 --> 1:09:49.000
<v Speaker 4>doing that. We were actually and see, I've been doing

1:09:49.040 --> 1:09:52.120
<v Speaker 4>this big planting job, but that's a paid job with

1:09:52.200 --> 1:09:55.280
<v Speaker 4>the Mule Deer Foundation. It's it's a beautiful job, but

1:09:55.840 --> 1:09:58.639
<v Speaker 4>it's not the same. Everybody's there to you know, it's work.

1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:03.840
<v Speaker 4>Everybody's with a huge gold but it's work. And those

1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:08.720
<v Speaker 4>volunteer things. We rolled fence, and dude, it was so

1:10:09.040 --> 1:10:10.720
<v Speaker 4>I know you've been doing this, but it was so

1:10:11.040 --> 1:10:17.000
<v Speaker 4>it is actionable, quantifiable yep. Right, we were taking they

1:10:17.000 --> 1:10:22.160
<v Speaker 4>were dead. There was hair and dead mule deer at

1:10:22.160 --> 1:10:26.120
<v Speaker 4>this crossing and that fence was completely useless. It was

1:10:26.160 --> 1:10:30.120
<v Speaker 4>just left there from after a forest fire like twenty

1:10:30.200 --> 1:10:33.439
<v Speaker 4>years ago. And we rolled that fence right out of

1:10:33.479 --> 1:10:35.799
<v Speaker 4>that mule deer trail that came from the high country

1:10:35.840 --> 1:10:36.880
<v Speaker 4>to the to the winter room.

1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:38.800
<v Speaker 3>You did it.

1:10:39.920 --> 1:10:45.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Observable, actionable, quantifiable. That's that's what I kept asking people,

1:10:45.320 --> 1:10:47.840
<v Speaker 4>like with the climate chain stuff and all that that

1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:53.040
<v Speaker 4>I got so dis engaged from because I was like,

1:10:53.280 --> 1:10:56.520
<v Speaker 4>I was like, I just need to see something actionable, quantifiable,

1:10:56.560 --> 1:11:02.120
<v Speaker 4>and observable, and that's you know, planting, restoring wetlands, restoring grassland,

1:11:02.479 --> 1:11:08.400
<v Speaker 4>clanton trees, burning fuels reduction yep. I was like, I

1:11:08.439 --> 1:11:13.599
<v Speaker 4>won't add actionable, quantifiable, observable, and those volunteer projects are

1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:14.240
<v Speaker 4>all of that.

1:11:14.800 --> 1:11:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, such a great example. So I was going

1:11:30.040 --> 1:11:32.639
<v Speaker 2>to ask you a question which you just already answered mostly,

1:11:33.160 --> 1:11:35.439
<v Speaker 2>but I will give you an opportunity to add anything

1:11:35.439 --> 1:11:37.240
<v Speaker 2>else to it. The question being, you know, one of

1:11:37.280 --> 1:11:39.960
<v Speaker 2>the first things you said that we should do entering

1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:43.960
<v Speaker 2>this era is to get educated, right, to pay attention

1:11:44.000 --> 1:11:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to this stuff. And so I think this is something

1:11:47.000 --> 1:11:49.120
<v Speaker 2>I've brought up to you maybe every time we've talked

1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:51.040
<v Speaker 2>some version of this. But you know, there's the famous

1:11:51.120 --> 1:11:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Leopold quote the curse of an ecological education is discovering

1:11:55.640 --> 1:11:57.599
<v Speaker 2>that you live in a world of wounds, something along

1:11:57.600 --> 1:12:00.400
<v Speaker 2>those lines. He said, Basically, the more we educate ourselves

1:12:00.439 --> 1:12:02.479
<v Speaker 2>on these issues, the more we pay attention to the

1:12:02.520 --> 1:12:05.479
<v Speaker 2>news about the environment and public lands and wildlife, the

1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:07.360
<v Speaker 2>more you're going to realize there's a lot of stuff

1:12:07.360 --> 1:12:10.640
<v Speaker 2>in danger, there's a lot of stuff getting you know,

1:12:11.520 --> 1:12:13.840
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of stuff that's not doing great right.

1:12:14.640 --> 1:12:20.040
<v Speaker 2>So what I'm always looking for are ways to maintain hope,

1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:22.880
<v Speaker 2>ways not to feel like, man, this whole thing's going

1:12:22.880 --> 1:12:26.160
<v Speaker 2>to the shit or eventually. You mentioned a couple of

1:12:26.160 --> 1:12:29.840
<v Speaker 2>great examples ways to do that, getting involved community volunteering.

1:12:30.200 --> 1:12:32.840
<v Speaker 2>You mentioned just talking to someone who's going on hunting

1:12:32.880 --> 1:12:33.320
<v Speaker 2>and being.

1:12:33.240 --> 1:12:34.599
<v Speaker 3>Reinvigorated through that.

1:12:35.080 --> 1:12:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Do you have any other things in your life that

1:12:38.200 --> 1:12:41.400
<v Speaker 2>help you stay positive, because sometimes when you zoom out

1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:43.880
<v Speaker 2>and you look at the long term trajectory of our

1:12:44.240 --> 1:12:47.600
<v Speaker 2>natural world and the environment and clean air and wildlife

1:12:47.600 --> 1:12:50.080
<v Speaker 2>across the world and all that kind of stuff, it

1:12:50.080 --> 1:12:52.640
<v Speaker 2>can get a little dark and dreary.

1:12:52.720 --> 1:12:54.679
<v Speaker 3>How do you stay hopeful?

1:12:56.680 --> 1:12:59.200
<v Speaker 4>Boy? I hope you don't edit that. You may have

1:12:59.200 --> 1:13:06.440
<v Speaker 4>to edit this out. But uh So, the all species

1:13:07.880 --> 1:13:12.840
<v Speaker 4>go through population overshoots, and not all of them, but most,

1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:16.040
<v Speaker 4>and they fill up their ecological niche and then they

1:13:16.240 --> 1:13:19.040
<v Speaker 4>decline in numbers. They don't go extinct. It's not like

1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:24.920
<v Speaker 4>apocalypse and fire and that you right. So, human population

1:13:25.680 --> 1:13:28.160
<v Speaker 4>on our planet is supposed to peak at like nine

1:13:28.200 --> 1:13:30.680
<v Speaker 4>point eight ten billion, maybe twelve, I'm not sure, but

1:13:31.240 --> 1:13:34.719
<v Speaker 4>it peaks at about two hundred and fifty years much

1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:41.479
<v Speaker 4>less probably, and at that point, the children, our great

1:13:41.640 --> 1:13:45.280
<v Speaker 4>great grandchildren are going to be living in a world

1:13:45.320 --> 1:13:48.680
<v Speaker 4>that is in recovering from all of the things that

1:13:48.720 --> 1:13:54.640
<v Speaker 4>people did to get insatiable resource demand. Right. So here's

1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:57.679
<v Speaker 4>my point, and I call this carry in the fire.

1:13:58.680 --> 1:14:03.200
<v Speaker 4>Those of us who understand how powerful the rivers and

1:14:03.240 --> 1:14:06.920
<v Speaker 4>the forests and the wildlife are have a unique moment

1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:17.519
<v Speaker 4>in history. What we prioritize, conserve, protect, steward now is

1:14:17.680 --> 1:14:21.479
<v Speaker 4>what's going to be in that recovering world in one

1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:25.320
<v Speaker 4>hundred and fifty years. And so there has never been

1:14:25.360 --> 1:14:28.840
<v Speaker 4>a time where it was more important to teach your

1:14:28.920 --> 1:14:32.640
<v Speaker 4>children to hunt and shoot and how beautiful it is

1:14:32.680 --> 1:14:37.479
<v Speaker 4>to hunt squirrels and to take food from the land

1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:41.320
<v Speaker 4>and fish from the water, and know that that water

1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:43.360
<v Speaker 4>is clean enough that it's going to make you strong

1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:46.080
<v Speaker 4>and healthy so you can run one hundred yard dash tomorrow.

1:14:46.760 --> 1:14:50.759
<v Speaker 4>It is or this is physicality too, like to teach

1:14:50.840 --> 1:14:55.240
<v Speaker 4>children and to keep ourselves fit right to be powerful

1:14:55.280 --> 1:14:57.519
<v Speaker 4>and strong, and to teach our children like health and

1:14:58.200 --> 1:15:02.240
<v Speaker 4>connections to nature. Because this is the fire that we're

1:15:02.280 --> 1:15:07.200
<v Speaker 4>going to carry through what this population overshoot into a

1:15:07.240 --> 1:15:12.400
<v Speaker 4>future where maybe there's one billion people on earth and

1:15:12.439 --> 1:15:18.000
<v Speaker 4>there are incredible numbers of wildlife and fish and oceans

1:15:18.040 --> 1:15:21.679
<v Speaker 4>pouring around without big plastic garbage patches and stuff. Right

1:15:22.080 --> 1:15:25.840
<v Speaker 4>but right now is the moment. And I think about that,

1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:29.280
<v Speaker 4>and I think about Doug Talamy's Homegrown National Park stuff

1:15:29.320 --> 1:15:32.679
<v Speaker 4>where they're saying, man, you don't have to have twenty acres.

1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:35.320
<v Speaker 4>You can plant a pollinator belt of native plants in

1:15:35.439 --> 1:15:39.640
<v Speaker 4>your yard and those pollinators are going to drive in

1:15:39.720 --> 1:15:45.200
<v Speaker 4>that place. Like my own backyard garden has so much

1:15:45.240 --> 1:15:49.080
<v Speaker 4>diversity in it now of these insects that I've just

1:15:49.160 --> 1:15:52.360
<v Speaker 4>never seen before, and it's kind of like it's not

1:15:52.560 --> 1:15:58.120
<v Speaker 4>very big, and they came from somewhere and they came

1:15:58.160 --> 1:16:03.640
<v Speaker 4>there because I planted these pollinators. And it's a microcosm.

1:16:03.800 --> 1:16:06.800
<v Speaker 4>But what is the microcosm except for these made up

1:16:06.840 --> 1:16:11.240
<v Speaker 4>of these small things. So I'm I'm actually and it's

1:16:11.280 --> 1:16:15.160
<v Speaker 4>my bias, right, Like I already wanted to teach my

1:16:15.240 --> 1:16:18.479
<v Speaker 4>kid how to pike fish. And my daughter is a

1:16:18.479 --> 1:16:21.240
<v Speaker 4>fisherman and and a hunter, and my son is a

1:16:21.320 --> 1:16:25.200
<v Speaker 4>hunter and a fisherman, and and they they know the

1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:27.479
<v Speaker 4>power of these things because my wife and I taught

1:16:27.520 --> 1:16:32.439
<v Speaker 4>it to them. But it's they're carrying this fire and

1:16:32.479 --> 1:16:35.120
<v Speaker 4>they're young they're not like in big conservation groups going

1:16:35.160 --> 1:16:37.760
<v Speaker 4>to d C advocating with that. That's our business, right,

1:16:39.720 --> 1:16:43.280
<v Speaker 4>but they know what they know where the bread's buttered,

1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:47.920
<v Speaker 4>they know what's powerful. Yeah, and it's our it's our

1:16:48.000 --> 1:16:54.160
<v Speaker 4>business to carry that fire through this time and so

1:16:54.360 --> 1:16:56.400
<v Speaker 4>that that making sure that it goes on.

1:16:58.240 --> 1:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>It's a hell of an obligation. But we're awfully we're

1:17:02.400 --> 1:17:03.920
<v Speaker 2>awfully fortunate to be able to do it.

1:17:04.000 --> 1:17:07.519
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful obligation because for me it

1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:09.479
<v Speaker 4>involves doing what I already want to do.

1:17:11.439 --> 1:17:16.200
<v Speaker 3>True, it's a there's a lot worth fighting for still,

1:17:16.240 --> 1:17:16.760
<v Speaker 3>that's for sure.

1:17:17.360 --> 1:17:21.280
<v Speaker 4>Oh my, so much, there is so much left to

1:17:21.920 --> 1:17:24.840
<v Speaker 4>not left. There's just so much there. Like I mean,

1:17:24.880 --> 1:17:28.840
<v Speaker 4>I live near the Lewis in Clark National Forest, and

1:17:28.880 --> 1:17:31.479
<v Speaker 4>I don't know where you're at on this, but like

1:17:31.560 --> 1:17:34.360
<v Speaker 4>this morning I went, I was going to the dump

1:17:34.640 --> 1:17:38.160
<v Speaker 4>and the wolf. It's called the wolf moon, this moon,

1:17:38.200 --> 1:17:40.760
<v Speaker 4>this January moon, and I don't know if it's an

1:17:40.760 --> 1:17:43.599
<v Speaker 4>optical illusion or not, but it was like five feet

1:17:43.960 --> 1:17:46.240
<v Speaker 4>it was the biggest moon I've ever seen going down

1:17:46.280 --> 1:17:47.080
<v Speaker 4>over the mountains.

1:17:47.400 --> 1:17:47.719
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

1:17:48.040 --> 1:17:51.160
<v Speaker 4>And I thought, just how lucky I was one to

1:17:51.200 --> 1:17:54.439
<v Speaker 4>have the Bob Marshall wilderness out there west of my house,

1:17:55.479 --> 1:18:00.720
<v Speaker 4>and two to see this moon and had gotten up,

1:18:01.120 --> 1:18:03.439
<v Speaker 4>you know, before you've got light. So I got to

1:18:03.479 --> 1:18:06.400
<v Speaker 4>see this and it was it was a thing where

1:18:06.439 --> 1:18:10.880
<v Speaker 4>I just felt lucky. And to who much is given,

1:18:10.960 --> 1:18:12.280
<v Speaker 4>much is expected. I think.

1:18:13.040 --> 1:18:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Yep, so so true and perfect, perfect sentiments to kind

1:18:18.600 --> 1:18:21.479
<v Speaker 2>of send us out here. Can can you tell us

1:18:21.520 --> 1:18:24.280
<v Speaker 2>how you've you've alluded to this book project you've been

1:18:24.280 --> 1:18:27.080
<v Speaker 2>working on for a few years now. Are you at

1:18:27.080 --> 1:18:29.519
<v Speaker 2>a point you can tell us anything about that yet?

1:18:29.600 --> 1:18:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Can you tease it? Can you give us anything as

1:18:32.000 --> 1:18:33.600
<v Speaker 2>far as what to look forward to or when to

1:18:33.640 --> 1:18:34.320
<v Speaker 2>look forward to it?

1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:36.479
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm I'm gonna finish this year.

1:18:37.520 --> 1:18:38.080
<v Speaker 3>I don't know that.

1:18:38.120 --> 1:18:41.160
<v Speaker 4>I guess it'll be out next year. I'm a but uh,

1:18:41.320 --> 1:18:44.160
<v Speaker 4>it's a public lands book, and it's a lot of

1:18:44.200 --> 1:18:47.880
<v Speaker 4>it is profiles of and of trips like on national

1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:50.920
<v Speaker 4>forests and part of it. I mean I read your

1:18:50.920 --> 1:18:54.160
<v Speaker 4>book early, and you and I are how many years

1:18:54.200 --> 1:18:56.120
<v Speaker 4>ago is that we talked about these projects?

1:18:56.720 --> 1:19:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Well like seven, yeah, something like that, because my book

1:19:00.280 --> 1:19:04.960
<v Speaker 2>came out at the end of twenty nineteen, right, so I.

1:19:04.920 --> 1:19:07.680
<v Speaker 4>Think seven years ago you told me. I said, well,

1:19:07.680 --> 1:19:09.880
<v Speaker 4>I got this contract, I'm working on this book, and

1:19:09.920 --> 1:19:12.240
<v Speaker 4>you're like, I'm working on one too, and you'd been

1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:16.519
<v Speaker 4>at it for a couple of years. But it's and

1:19:17.120 --> 1:19:20.120
<v Speaker 4>your book is also experiential. You know, are talking about

1:19:20.160 --> 1:19:22.920
<v Speaker 4>this before we hit the record, I wanted to do

1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:25.880
<v Speaker 4>a it did turn out to be brief, but a

1:19:25.960 --> 1:19:29.680
<v Speaker 4>history of how we got public lands and an understanding

1:19:29.760 --> 1:19:33.679
<v Speaker 4>of all the issues regard to that. But I wanted

1:19:33.680 --> 1:19:36.720
<v Speaker 4>the second part of the book to be journeys, just trips,

1:19:37.160 --> 1:19:40.840
<v Speaker 4>and so I've done some incredible trips. Mostly I've sat here,

1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:43.160
<v Speaker 4>as you know, as a writer, sat here like a

1:19:43.240 --> 1:19:50.360
<v Speaker 4>limpet glued to this chair. But the it's like places

1:19:50.400 --> 1:19:53.320
<v Speaker 4>like the Tuskegee National Forests in Alabama. It's kind of

1:19:53.320 --> 1:19:56.680
<v Speaker 4>a deep dive into the history and what's there, and

1:19:56.720 --> 1:20:00.280
<v Speaker 4>based around a trip there on the Bartram Trail, which

1:20:00.439 --> 1:20:03.200
<v Speaker 4>if anybody's listening to this, you know, go like as

1:20:03.200 --> 1:20:06.920
<v Speaker 4>the winter gets went towards spring, man, go go look

1:20:06.960 --> 1:20:10.720
<v Speaker 4>at the Bartram Trail, And that's James Bartram, the naturalists

1:20:10.760 --> 1:20:15.000
<v Speaker 4>who went to the Creek Nation back in seventeen nineties,

1:20:15.040 --> 1:20:19.000
<v Speaker 4>I think, and recorded all the plants and all the

1:20:19.040 --> 1:20:23.240
<v Speaker 4>stuff he saw. It was William Bartram, and he he

1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:25.960
<v Speaker 4>wrote a book called The Travels with William Bartram, which

1:20:26.000 --> 1:20:29.280
<v Speaker 4>you should people should read like this is like and

1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:31.560
<v Speaker 4>that was that. That's Alabama. There's another one apple a

1:20:31.640 --> 1:20:36.080
<v Speaker 4>Chicola Forests where you go through the Bradwell Bay Wilderness,

1:20:36.240 --> 1:20:39.800
<v Speaker 4>which's like the strangest likes. It's water up to your

1:20:39.840 --> 1:20:44.679
<v Speaker 4>waist for miles and miles. Should shone National Forests, first

1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:49.120
<v Speaker 4>national forest in America, right with the Yellowstone Timberland Reserve,

1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:52.840
<v Speaker 4>that very first natural forest. We do about a forty

1:20:52.840 --> 1:20:57.320
<v Speaker 4>mile trip through that nice So that's where I've been

1:20:57.479 --> 1:21:02.040
<v Speaker 4>man for all the last you know, three years really

1:21:04.560 --> 1:21:07.599
<v Speaker 4>and it's it's like I said, I've been glued. You're glue.

1:21:07.920 --> 1:21:09.759
<v Speaker 4>You get to do the trips, but then you're glued

1:21:09.800 --> 1:21:11.640
<v Speaker 4>to your you really got to be glued.

1:21:11.400 --> 1:21:15.519
<v Speaker 2>To the You're you're living vicariously through your own words

1:21:16.040 --> 1:21:18.400
<v Speaker 2>for a while there you're wishing you could be out

1:21:18.400 --> 1:21:21.280
<v Speaker 2>there adventuring again, but you're just you gotta get it

1:21:21.320 --> 1:21:21.960
<v Speaker 2>on the page.

1:21:22.040 --> 1:21:22.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm definitely in that.

1:21:23.000 --> 1:21:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm in that phase right now for the new project.

1:21:25.240 --> 1:21:29.760
<v Speaker 2>And uh, it takes some takes some discipline that's for sure.

1:21:29.760 --> 1:21:30.759
<v Speaker 3>It's not always the easiest.

1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:34.400
<v Speaker 4>Are there days where you don't get it?

1:21:35.720 --> 1:21:36.439
<v Speaker 3>Are there days?

1:21:36.840 --> 1:21:37.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

1:21:37.479 --> 1:21:40.760
<v Speaker 2>Sure, there are some days. I I've really tried to

1:21:40.760 --> 1:21:43.760
<v Speaker 2>stick to a little bit. Every day has been my

1:21:43.840 --> 1:21:46.240
<v Speaker 2>mantra this time around, because the first time around, I

1:21:46.280 --> 1:21:47.720
<v Speaker 2>had a lot of days I couldn't do it because

1:21:47.720 --> 1:21:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't do it quite right. And so my new

1:21:50.120 --> 1:21:52.960
<v Speaker 2>my new method this year, not this year, this project

1:21:53.040 --> 1:21:56.080
<v Speaker 2>has been a little bit of progress every single day

1:21:56.479 --> 1:21:58.680
<v Speaker 2>of the work week at least, and so that it's

1:21:58.720 --> 1:22:00.439
<v Speaker 2>just kind of you're slowly chipping away at it, and

1:22:00.439 --> 1:22:01.960
<v Speaker 2>it's always in the back of your mind, even when

1:22:02.000 --> 1:22:04.120
<v Speaker 2>you're not the computer. You're in the shower, on a

1:22:04.160 --> 1:22:06.280
<v Speaker 2>walk or something, and an idea hits you. So that's

1:22:06.520 --> 1:22:09.200
<v Speaker 2>that's been my approach this time, and so far, so good.

1:22:09.200 --> 1:22:10.559
<v Speaker 2>But you ask me in five.

1:22:10.360 --> 1:22:12.000
<v Speaker 3>More months and I'll tell you whether or not it's

1:22:12.040 --> 1:22:12.519
<v Speaker 3>worked or not.

1:22:13.240 --> 1:22:16.519
<v Speaker 4>Right for sure, Well, I just I mean, I'm very

1:22:16.800 --> 1:22:21.720
<v Speaker 4>impressed with your work, and to some extent, like I

1:22:22.120 --> 1:22:23.800
<v Speaker 4>was when I was talking to you just then, I'm

1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:27.040
<v Speaker 4>listening because I mean, I've been doing this forever and

1:22:27.080 --> 1:22:31.240
<v Speaker 4>I still don't know really, I have never gotten to

1:22:31.280 --> 1:22:33.600
<v Speaker 4>the point where I wake up at eight o'clock, I

1:22:33.720 --> 1:22:36.639
<v Speaker 4>walk in the office at eight o'clock, and I produce

1:22:36.960 --> 1:22:39.800
<v Speaker 4>words until twelve o'clock, and then I go out and

1:22:39.840 --> 1:22:42.360
<v Speaker 4>go fishing. Yeah, or take the kids doing that. I

1:22:42.400 --> 1:22:44.880
<v Speaker 4>never I've never done that. At it's it's always been

1:22:44.920 --> 1:22:47.880
<v Speaker 4>a struggle to figure out where it starts, how to

1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:53.120
<v Speaker 4>I don't know so, but it is a life we've chosen.

1:22:54.040 --> 1:22:54.160
<v Speaker 5>You know.

1:22:54.360 --> 1:22:57.799
<v Speaker 2>The best thing that has ever happened in my writing

1:22:57.840 --> 1:23:00.479
<v Speaker 2>life might be some of the best advice we could

1:23:00.520 --> 1:23:02.840
<v Speaker 2>give anyone when it comes to trying to tackle some

1:23:02.880 --> 1:23:06.040
<v Speaker 2>of these issues we're talking about, which has been that

1:23:06.120 --> 1:23:11.759
<v Speaker 2>I have given myself permission should just do a little something,

1:23:11.920 --> 1:23:14.719
<v Speaker 2>even if it's not very good, even if it's not perfect,

1:23:15.000 --> 1:23:16.880
<v Speaker 2>even if it's not going to be the best book

1:23:16.920 --> 1:23:18.640
<v Speaker 2>in the world. This is not the best sentence, this

1:23:18.720 --> 1:23:22.200
<v Speaker 2>is not the best paragraph. It's just a little something.

1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.920
<v Speaker 2>But I did something, and I gave my self permission

1:23:26.040 --> 1:23:29.639
<v Speaker 2>to just do a little bit of something, even though

1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:33.519
<v Speaker 2>it's not great. And by doing that, it gets the

1:23:33.560 --> 1:23:36.360
<v Speaker 2>ball rolling. And if I can just give myself permission

1:23:36.360 --> 1:23:39.559
<v Speaker 2>to write a few shitty words and not feel bad

1:23:39.560 --> 1:23:41.960
<v Speaker 2>about that it usually leads to me writing a bunch

1:23:42.000 --> 1:23:44.800
<v Speaker 2>of okay words, which then maybe someday I can turn

1:23:44.840 --> 1:23:46.240
<v Speaker 2>into some.

1:23:46.200 --> 1:23:47.559
<v Speaker 3>Page is worth of good words.

1:23:47.880 --> 1:23:49.640
<v Speaker 2>And I think that might be a little bit of

1:23:49.680 --> 1:23:51.920
<v Speaker 2>the trick to making a difference when it comes to

1:23:52.040 --> 1:23:55.040
<v Speaker 2>stewarding our public lands and standing up for wild places.

1:23:55.040 --> 1:23:57.840
<v Speaker 2>It's you know what, you can do a little something today.

1:23:57.840 --> 1:23:59.479
<v Speaker 2>It might not fix it all, but you could sign

1:23:59.479 --> 1:24:02.320
<v Speaker 2>that petition today or maybe next week. You know, you

1:24:02.320 --> 1:24:05.639
<v Speaker 2>could call your representative of your senator and yeah, that's

1:24:05.680 --> 1:24:07.639
<v Speaker 2>not going to fix it all. And maybe you don't

1:24:07.640 --> 1:24:11.040
<v Speaker 2>come across super eloquently on the phone, maybe you're not

1:24:11.160 --> 1:24:13.200
<v Speaker 2>the best speaker, whatever it is, But but do the

1:24:13.280 --> 1:24:16.160
<v Speaker 2>little bit you can today, because all of this stuff,

1:24:16.360 --> 1:24:19.559
<v Speaker 2>little bit by little bit, one crappy paragraph at a time.

1:24:20.400 --> 1:24:22.880
<v Speaker 2>You write a book, or you stand up for your

1:24:22.880 --> 1:24:25.280
<v Speaker 2>public lands, or you save the damn world.

1:24:25.800 --> 1:24:28.519
<v Speaker 4>That is so, that is so you're get on, man.

1:24:29.360 --> 1:24:34.840
<v Speaker 4>I'm glad I know you. One thing, when when you

1:24:34.960 --> 1:24:39.000
<v Speaker 4>finished that, I was thinking about the what the real

1:24:39.160 --> 1:24:42.600
<v Speaker 4>death the doom right is to think that if I

1:24:42.640 --> 1:24:47.600
<v Speaker 4>think about the book all of a sudden, and you

1:24:47.680 --> 1:24:52.200
<v Speaker 4>think about like saving the public lands. Oh and or Daunte.

1:24:52.760 --> 1:24:54.800
<v Speaker 4>Oh my lord, You're like, like, is there going to

1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:57.519
<v Speaker 4>be any fishing in twenty twenty five? You go, I

1:24:57.520 --> 1:25:04.160
<v Speaker 4>don't know. To that is to do small, actionable, quantifiable

1:25:04.200 --> 1:25:08.280
<v Speaker 4>and deserrable things today and and do them while you're

1:25:08.320 --> 1:25:11.040
<v Speaker 4>thinking about it, and then if the rest of the

1:25:11.120 --> 1:25:16.360
<v Speaker 4>day goes the hell you did that? Ye yeah, what's that?

1:25:16.520 --> 1:25:18.040
<v Speaker 3>You had a win, You had.

1:25:17.880 --> 1:25:21.960
<v Speaker 4>To win a small victory. But yeah, I think that's right.

1:25:22.080 --> 1:25:27.160
<v Speaker 4>It's like and that's so much of our conservation world

1:25:27.600 --> 1:25:30.479
<v Speaker 4>has gotten to be this like abstract thing. Oh no,

1:25:31.400 --> 1:25:35.720
<v Speaker 4>like the garbage gyre in the ocean or something. You go, ah, no,

1:25:36.000 --> 1:25:38.120
<v Speaker 4>what am I gonna do? Well, the answer is you're

1:25:38.160 --> 1:25:43.200
<v Speaker 4>not gonna do anything about that today. You know, maybe

1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:45.840
<v Speaker 4>you you good? You go over to the tap and

1:25:45.920 --> 1:25:48.880
<v Speaker 4>drink a glass of water instead of buying a plastic bottle.

1:25:49.240 --> 1:25:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do every little tiny thing we can is a

1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:54.479
<v Speaker 2>starting point.

1:25:54.560 --> 1:25:55.479
<v Speaker 3>It's the next step.

1:25:55.720 --> 1:26:02.519
<v Speaker 7>It's it's progress because perfect perfect the attempt to reach

1:26:02.560 --> 1:26:06.280
<v Speaker 7>perfection leads to a lot of paralysis at least never starting,

1:26:06.760 --> 1:26:08.040
<v Speaker 7>least never doing anything.

1:26:08.360 --> 1:26:11.680
<v Speaker 2>And uh right, yeah, we gotta fight that temptation. We

1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:12.639
<v Speaker 2>gotta we gotta.

1:26:13.439 --> 1:26:16.520
<v Speaker 4>Don't you think there's a there's a terrible human tendency

1:26:16.560 --> 1:26:20.280
<v Speaker 4>too to go like to go to the macrocosm immediately go, well,

1:26:20.280 --> 1:26:22.920
<v Speaker 4>there nothing I can do about that, and that lets

1:26:22.920 --> 1:26:26.240
<v Speaker 4>you off the hook, yep, and you just like go

1:26:26.320 --> 1:26:29.719
<v Speaker 4>grab the grab the coke and the funions and kick

1:26:29.760 --> 1:26:31.439
<v Speaker 4>back and watch another YouTube. You know.

1:26:32.240 --> 1:26:34.439
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of people that have fallen into that trap.

1:26:35.760 --> 1:26:40.799
<v Speaker 4>Myself. Yeah, I mean I kind of I work against

1:26:40.840 --> 1:26:45.200
<v Speaker 4>that trap, like all the time I was. I remember

1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:48.120
<v Speaker 4>back when uh I used to really I was into

1:26:48.200 --> 1:26:52.720
<v Speaker 4>jiu jitsu for like twenty years, you know, and still am.

1:26:52.760 --> 1:26:55.519
<v Speaker 4>But I'm I've aged out of like doing it too

1:26:55.720 --> 1:26:57.960
<v Speaker 4>too hard on as hard as I want to. Uh.

1:26:58.000 --> 1:27:00.240
<v Speaker 4>But people would come to class, you know, and they

1:27:00.280 --> 1:27:02.840
<v Speaker 4>would be all excited and they're go, I'm gonna like

1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:05.880
<v Speaker 4>be a blue belt in three months. You know, I'm

1:27:05.920 --> 1:27:09.719
<v Speaker 4>gonna I'm gonna win the butte, you know. Uh intra

1:27:09.800 --> 1:27:14.000
<v Speaker 4>murals like in like Christmas, and those are the people

1:27:14.000 --> 1:27:16.320
<v Speaker 4>who never came They never came back to class.

1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:21.080
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, And the and the people who go like, wow, man,

1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:25.720
<v Speaker 8>that's a really interesting move, show me that again, and

1:27:25.760 --> 1:27:27.760
<v Speaker 8>then and then they would go up the next night

1:27:27.840 --> 1:27:28.960
<v Speaker 8>and the next night, you know.

1:27:30.080 --> 1:27:32.240
<v Speaker 4>Uh, and it was it was very much of what

1:27:32.320 --> 1:27:35.559
<v Speaker 4>we're talking about. Yeah, the people who wanted to be

1:27:35.600 --> 1:27:40.479
<v Speaker 4>great now were the ones who ended up not coming back.

1:27:41.040 --> 1:27:44.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what's one small step you can take? What's one

1:27:44.720 --> 1:27:47.880
<v Speaker 2>How can you get one percent better tomorrow? How can

1:27:47.920 --> 1:27:50.679
<v Speaker 2>you make some small tangible difference this week?

1:27:50.880 --> 1:27:53.280
<v Speaker 4>I think, Uh, have you got one that you could

1:27:53.280 --> 1:27:55.559
<v Speaker 4>think of right now, Like on the on the public

1:27:55.640 --> 1:27:59.439
<v Speaker 4>lands thing. I think it would be to tell your

1:27:59.479 --> 1:28:02.479
<v Speaker 4>friends about the Supreme Court decision this morning.

1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:05.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, right, I think so.

1:28:06.360 --> 1:28:08.600
<v Speaker 2>I think that passed along the fact that hey, this

1:28:08.720 --> 1:28:11.559
<v Speaker 2>is a thing that reared its ugly head again and

1:28:11.640 --> 1:28:15.360
<v Speaker 2>we're fortunate that it got shot down. But hey, I

1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:19.080
<v Speaker 2>think I think for me, the overwhelming takeaway from this

1:28:19.160 --> 1:28:22.439
<v Speaker 2>conversation and from just kind of the moment is that

1:28:22.880 --> 1:28:24.240
<v Speaker 2>it's time to re engage.

1:28:24.800 --> 1:28:25.360
<v Speaker 4>I think that.

1:28:25.320 --> 1:28:27.479
<v Speaker 2>There's been a little bit of sitting back on our

1:28:27.560 --> 1:28:30.599
<v Speaker 2>laurels the last handful of years. It kind of felt

1:28:30.640 --> 1:28:34.360
<v Speaker 2>like we we you know, won the battle there for

1:28:34.400 --> 1:28:38.639
<v Speaker 2>a moment, and I think it's time to to rally.

1:28:38.760 --> 1:28:41.400
<v Speaker 2>It's time to re engage, start to start really paying

1:28:41.400 --> 1:28:46.080
<v Speaker 2>attention again, because uh, like you said, if we don't engage,

1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:48.840
<v Speaker 2>if we don't stand up on this stuff, there's there's

1:28:48.840 --> 1:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>folks that have other incentives and other goals in mind

1:28:51.960 --> 1:28:55.080
<v Speaker 2>that are very motivated and in the right position to

1:28:55.120 --> 1:28:55.400
<v Speaker 2>do so.

1:28:56.040 --> 1:28:59.800
<v Speaker 4>They are very motivated and at the moment, if you

1:28:59.800 --> 1:29:02.040
<v Speaker 4>don't don't challenge you, if you don't stand up for

1:29:02.120 --> 1:29:06.320
<v Speaker 4>what you want, those people are definitely ascendant at the moment.

1:29:07.520 --> 1:29:10.479
<v Speaker 4>I mean, like the right wing think tanks like Heritage

1:29:10.520 --> 1:29:14.719
<v Speaker 4>Foundation from the they have an ALEC American Legislatory Exchange

1:29:14.720 --> 1:29:20.879
<v Speaker 4>Council American Lands Council ALC. These people have been deeply

1:29:20.920 --> 1:29:24.639
<v Speaker 4>involved in the in the long term movement to take

1:29:24.760 --> 1:29:29.000
<v Speaker 4>away the American public lands from the as long as

1:29:29.000 --> 1:29:32.519
<v Speaker 4>I can my all my adult life. And these are

1:29:32.600 --> 1:29:37.519
<v Speaker 4>think tanks that are mostly you know there they call

1:29:37.640 --> 1:29:40.799
<v Speaker 4>themselves conservative. It's not conservative to take away the American

1:29:40.840 --> 1:29:43.519
<v Speaker 4>public lands, let me tell you that. Yeah, that's about

1:29:43.520 --> 1:29:47.040
<v Speaker 4>as radical an idea divesting the people of their own

1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:52.160
<v Speaker 4>land as I've ever heard. But they those the planks

1:29:52.200 --> 1:29:57.360
<v Speaker 4>of these think tanks. I'm doing air quotes. They think

1:29:57.439 --> 1:30:00.400
<v Speaker 4>best when somebody's given them money to chair, you pick

1:30:00.439 --> 1:30:03.840
<v Speaker 4>information and prove something that they want, but that they

1:30:03.840 --> 1:30:07.799
<v Speaker 4>already want to get. But they are ascendant at the moment.

1:30:08.120 --> 1:30:11.200
<v Speaker 4>And it is it is. It is our job as

1:30:11.240 --> 1:30:13.920
<v Speaker 4>American citizens and people who know what is at stake

1:30:15.200 --> 1:30:21.639
<v Speaker 4>to say no to the worst impulses. And even if

1:30:21.640 --> 1:30:25.120
<v Speaker 4>we voted for these folks, especially if people say no

1:30:25.200 --> 1:30:28.920
<v Speaker 4>to the especially if we vote right, yeah, I mean,

1:30:28.960 --> 1:30:31.160
<v Speaker 4>you didn't vote to divest yourself of the of your

1:30:31.280 --> 1:30:32.000
<v Speaker 4>hunting ground.

1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:36.840
<v Speaker 2>And I think that that makes us that much more

1:30:36.880 --> 1:30:40.960
<v Speaker 2>influential and powerful in our ability to influence change, because

1:30:40.960 --> 1:30:42.679
<v Speaker 2>we can call these folks up and say, hey, buddy,

1:30:42.840 --> 1:30:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I voted for you, I'm voting for you. I support this, this,

1:30:45.920 --> 1:30:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and this, but on this one, you got it wrong.

1:30:48.520 --> 1:30:50.559
<v Speaker 2>And if you want my support the next time around,

1:30:50.920 --> 1:30:52.960
<v Speaker 2>or for your buddy who's running the next time or

1:30:53.000 --> 1:30:56.120
<v Speaker 2>whatever it is, you gotta change this. I'm on your team.

1:30:56.720 --> 1:30:58.720
<v Speaker 2>We're on your team. We want to support you. But

1:30:59.080 --> 1:31:02.160
<v Speaker 2>this is a deal, and we have the ear of

1:31:02.200 --> 1:31:04.920
<v Speaker 2>these people. They might not listen at all to the

1:31:05.000 --> 1:31:08.160
<v Speaker 2>left side of the aisle, but they will listen to us,

1:31:08.400 --> 1:31:11.240
<v Speaker 2>So we have a we have a huge opportunity there.

1:31:12.120 --> 1:31:14.479
<v Speaker 4>I think that's true. You gotta be careful that they're

1:31:14.720 --> 1:31:20.640
<v Speaker 4>they're taking us for granted at this moment, and the

1:31:21.360 --> 1:31:25.600
<v Speaker 4>elections and stuff have kind of given people, the politicians

1:31:26.280 --> 1:31:30.479
<v Speaker 4>a complacent view of of of what will stand for. Really.

1:31:31.479 --> 1:31:34.719
<v Speaker 4>I mean they that that privatizing the public lands deal

1:31:34.880 --> 1:31:37.360
<v Speaker 4>was in the Republican platform in twenty sixteen.

1:31:37.520 --> 1:31:39.679
<v Speaker 3>Yep, I remember, and.

1:31:41.320 --> 1:31:44.360
<v Speaker 4>You know, everybody I know still voted, and I don't

1:31:44.400 --> 1:31:49.000
<v Speaker 4>know what they thought, right, Like you know Ryan Sinky

1:31:49.160 --> 1:31:52.160
<v Speaker 4>in Montwna, I actually did not support that.

1:31:52.520 --> 1:31:52.760
<v Speaker 3>Yep.

1:31:54.439 --> 1:31:58.200
<v Speaker 4>Whatever you think of representatives thinking, he didn't support that,

1:31:58.320 --> 1:32:00.960
<v Speaker 4>and and that was really good, I thought, And I

1:32:01.040 --> 1:32:05.160
<v Speaker 4>thought that was courageous of him to make that stand. Yeah,

1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:07.200
<v Speaker 4>So I think let's have more of that.

1:32:07.720 --> 1:32:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's that's the rally and cry I

1:32:11.040 --> 1:32:14.280
<v Speaker 2>think for us leaving here today is get ready to

1:32:14.960 --> 1:32:17.599
<v Speaker 2>get ready to re engage, get ready to stand up,

1:32:17.760 --> 1:32:21.760
<v Speaker 2>get ready to be that squeaky wheel and uh not

1:32:21.840 --> 1:32:27.400
<v Speaker 2>be complacent. So hell, I don't know when it will be,

1:32:27.920 --> 1:32:30.240
<v Speaker 2>but when whenever your book comes out next year, you

1:32:30.320 --> 1:32:33.120
<v Speaker 2>have a guaranteed appointment here on the wire Hunt podcast

1:32:33.120 --> 1:32:35.639
<v Speaker 2>to talk all about your book. I'll be recommending every

1:32:35.680 --> 1:32:37.559
<v Speaker 2>one of our listeners to pick up a copy. I

1:32:37.600 --> 1:32:41.320
<v Speaker 2>can't wait to read it myself. And uh, I thank

1:32:41.360 --> 1:32:43.880
<v Speaker 2>you for for everything you've shared with us here today

1:32:44.479 --> 1:32:48.200
<v Speaker 2>and all the all the wisdom and inspiration over the years.

1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:48.600
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

1:32:48.640 --> 1:32:51.559
<v Speaker 4>Hell it's a great, great time. Man. I've told you

1:32:51.640 --> 1:32:56.559
<v Speaker 4>I was. I feel like you're the voice of your

1:32:57.080 --> 1:33:02.280
<v Speaker 4>particular generation at this moment on this subject, and you're

1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:06.559
<v Speaker 4>coming straight out of the hunting world, which is you

1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:10.640
<v Speaker 4>couldn't have a stronger base. Yeah, I mean, hunter controvationist

1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:13.640
<v Speaker 4>is a large part of why we have what we have.

1:33:14.200 --> 1:33:16.599
<v Speaker 3>We got a hell of a legacy that we had

1:33:16.640 --> 1:33:17.080
<v Speaker 3>to hold up.

1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:26.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well finding dude, thank you hell yeah.

1:33:23.840 --> 1:33:25.320
<v Speaker 3>And that's going to do it for us today.

1:33:25.520 --> 1:33:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Appreciate you joining me here on the Wired to Hunt podcast.

1:33:28.800 --> 1:33:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for tuning in here as hell and I discussed

1:33:31.520 --> 1:33:34.439
<v Speaker 2>what is the beginning I think of an important set

1:33:34.479 --> 1:33:37.160
<v Speaker 2>of conversations that we are going to be continuing this

1:33:37.280 --> 1:33:41.320
<v Speaker 2>year and over the next handful of years, because we

1:33:41.400 --> 1:33:43.680
<v Speaker 2>are going to have some work to do, and I

1:33:43.680 --> 1:33:46.280
<v Speaker 2>believe and I trust that you're going to be joining

1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:48.679
<v Speaker 2>me in doing that work. So thanks for being here.

1:33:49.000 --> 1:33:51.479
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for checking out that Wild Country. If you have

1:33:51.640 --> 1:33:53.679
<v Speaker 2>not already read that book that I wrote a handful

1:33:53.720 --> 1:33:54.280
<v Speaker 2>of years ago.

1:33:54.560 --> 1:33:55.920
<v Speaker 3>It is the perfect way to get you.

1:33:55.960 --> 1:33:58.280
<v Speaker 2>Up to speed on what's happening now and what we

1:33:58.360 --> 1:34:01.000
<v Speaker 2>might need to be preparing for in the future. So

1:34:01.080 --> 1:34:03.719
<v Speaker 2>thank you, appreciate you being a part of this community,

1:34:04.040 --> 1:34:08.080
<v Speaker 2>and until next time, stay Wired to Hunt.