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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I am joined by Hale Herring to discuss

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Speaker 2: the return of the public land grab movement and other

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Speaker 2: conservation related issues and threats that we're going to have

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Speaker 2: to keep an eye on heading into the new year.

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Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 2: brought to you by First Light and their Camera for

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Speaker 2: Conservation initiative. And today we're continuing our series looking forward

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Speaker 2: into twenty twenty five and the new year, and the

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Speaker 2: focus today is public lands and conservation related issues. We

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Speaker 2: talked the big beginning of the year, kind of looking

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Speaker 2: back on twenty four and things that Tony and I

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Speaker 2: have learned as we look towards planning our next year

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Speaker 2: worth of projects. Last week, I think it was we

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Speaker 2: talked with Jake about planning and looking forward to a

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Speaker 2: new year of habitat improvements. Now today we're going to

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Speaker 2: go a little bit bigger picture, looking across the nation

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Speaker 2: at the issues that are going to potentially impact all

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Speaker 2: of us who enjoy hunting and fishing on wild public

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Speaker 2: places and also private land related places too. But today, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: we need to kind of turn back the clock to

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Speaker 2: a set of issues that was talked a lot about

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Speaker 2: here on the podcast you know, five, six, seven, eight

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Speaker 2: years ago, and that being the land transfer movement, the

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Speaker 2: public land grab movement, folks trying to get rid of

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Speaker 2: our public lands, transfer them, sell them, degrade them, overutilize

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Speaker 2: them for things that are not conducive to hunting and

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Speaker 2: fishing and healthy wildlife populations and clean air and clean water.

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Speaker 3: All that kind of good stuff.

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Speaker 2: This is a set of topics that has to be

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Speaker 2: discussed again, and my guest today is someone who's perfectly

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Speaker 2: suited to do that. It's Hail Hearing. Hell is the

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Speaker 2: host of Backcountry and Hunters and Anglers podcast. He's also

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Speaker 2: a long time outdoor writer and journalist. He's covered the

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Speaker 2: conservation and environment related beats and kind of the intersection

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Speaker 2: of those topics with hunting and fishing. He's covered that

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Speaker 2: for decades, I believe, and he's actually now working on

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Speaker 2: a book exploring some of these topics, in particular the

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Speaker 2: history of our public land. So Hell is a wealth

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Speaker 2: of information and he's someone who has been tracking the

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Speaker 2: latest iteration of these public land threats. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's one of the key things that we need to

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Speaker 2: understand now, is that maybe for a minute, we felt

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Speaker 2: like we'd won the battle, we'd kind of stopped this

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Speaker 2: land transfer movement in its tracks. Back in eighteen nineteen twenty,

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Speaker 2: there was a decent bit of good news on the

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Speaker 2: public lands side of things, and over the last four

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Speaker 2: years there has been a lot more of that positive

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Speaker 2: changes when it comes to management of our public lands,

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Speaker 2: expanding public lands again, increasing protections on our public lands again.

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Speaker 2: But it appears that new forces are ascending. New leaders,

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Speaker 2: new influencers, new political think tanks and groups with different

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Speaker 2: goals and different aims now are in a position to

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Speaker 2: influence change for us in a not so good way.

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Speaker 2: And we've started to see the beginnings of that. And

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Speaker 2: one of those ways has been what Hell has described

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Speaker 2: as the slickest land grab attempt yet, which was this

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Speaker 2: lawsuit that the State of Utah recently filed back at

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Speaker 2: the end of twenty twenty for looking for the disposal,

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Speaker 2: asking the Supreme Court for the disposal of eighteen point

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Speaker 2: five million acres of public lands in Utah.

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Speaker 3: And then in.

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Speaker 2: Another like thirteen fourteen, maybe fifteen other states signed on

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Speaker 2: in support of that lawsuit, states like Idaho, Iowa, Wyoming, Alaska.

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Speaker 2: These states were in support of this. So this is

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Speaker 2: a new way. This is a new back door way

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Speaker 2: to try to get folks to get folks hands on

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Speaker 2: our public lands. And of course, as we've talked many times,

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Speaker 2: we got to keep public lands in public hands. So

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Speaker 2: our discussion today is going to be about what this

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Speaker 2: latest land grab attempt means and the good news on

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Speaker 2: that front, which is just a couple days ago the

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Speaker 2: lawsuit was struck down by the Supreme by the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to discuss what this lawsuit was about,

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Speaker 2: why the Supreme Court shot it down, what that means

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Speaker 2: for the future, what a all of this might point

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Speaker 2: towards over the coming year or years, as far as

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Speaker 2: how the public land grab movement might be shifting. In

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Speaker 2: what we need to do as hunters and anglers and

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Speaker 2: outdoors people to make sure that we are ready for

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Speaker 2: this and ready for some new challenges coming down the

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Speaker 2: pipeline because it is now time to re engage. We're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss this. We're going to discuss why twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five. In the next few years, we as a

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Speaker 2: hunting and fishing community are going to have to kind

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Speaker 2: of get on it again. Maybe we've been sitting back

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Speaker 2: on our laurels a bit recently, sitting pretty feeling comfortable.

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Speaker 2: No longer we need to rally. We need to stand

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Speaker 2: back up and get busy, because if we don't, we

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Speaker 2: are once again faced with the very real threat of

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Speaker 2: losing places we really care about. Places like the Boundary Waters,

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Speaker 2: places like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, places like the

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Speaker 2: Tongus National Forest, places like the hundreds of millions of

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Speaker 2: acres managed by the Bureau of Land Management across the

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Speaker 2: American West. That's what we're discussing today. Hale is the

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Speaker 2: perfect guy to discuss it with. I will give a

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Speaker 2: one quick soft plug. If this whole land transfer movement thing,

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Speaker 2: if the history of how our public lands have been

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Speaker 2: traded and managed and now are under threat, if that's

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Speaker 2: kind of new to you, if you haven't been following

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Speaker 2: this story over the last decade with us here on

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Speaker 2: Wired Hunt, I gotta plug my book. You can see

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Speaker 2: it behind me if you're watching the video. It's called

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Speaker 2: That Wild Country and Epic Journey into the past, present,

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Speaker 2: and Future of America's Public Lands. That book was my

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Speaker 2: my attempt to try to get the average person up

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Speaker 2: to speed on what's going on and do it in

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Speaker 2: a fun, adventurous, compelling way. So there's a bunch of

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Speaker 2: stories about my adventures on public lands, hunting and fishing

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Speaker 2: and backpacking and rafting and doing all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And along the way, I'm going to get you all

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Speaker 2: up to speed on how we acquired six hundred and

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Speaker 2: forty million acres of federal public lands, how we is

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Speaker 2: America and have access to these things, and the crazy

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Speaker 2: story that led to that, as well as the debates

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Speaker 2: and controversies and concerning threats that we will be facing

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Speaker 2: here in the future to make sure we maintain that

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Speaker 2: access in these incredible places for us to go out

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Speaker 2: there and camp and hunt and fish and have a

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Speaker 2: hell of a time. So check out That Wild Country.

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Speaker 2: There are maybe autograph copies still on the media website.

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Speaker 2: If not, going over to Amazon pick up a copy

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Speaker 2: and lets.

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Speaker 3: You do that.

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Speaker 2: Tune into the rest of this podcast with hal Herring.

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Speaker 2: It's a good one. It's an important one.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for being.

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Speaker 2: Here all right here with me now on the line

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Speaker 2: is mister Hale Herring.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 4: Hell thanks for really having me man man Mark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I always appreciate you making time to do this.

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Speaker 2: These are some of my favorite chats. And that's for

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Speaker 2: another reasons. One because you're just a wealth of information

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Speaker 2: and second because you are someone who from afar gives

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Speaker 2: me both hope and inspiration when it comes to the

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Speaker 2: future of our wild places, public lands, wildlife through your podcast,

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Speaker 2: through your words you have You've done that for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people. Hell, so I want to thank you

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Speaker 2: here at the outset for doing that.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate that. It ain't really I wasn't really trying

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Speaker 4: to do that. That's how I feel. I've had it.

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Speaker 4: If it comes through, it's just it's just the way

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Speaker 4: I've lived it. Like my life has been so I've

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Speaker 4: been so lucky, raised my kids and my family with

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Speaker 4: the public lands and hunting and fishing Missouri River catfish

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Speaker 4: and I mean I just and all the way back

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Speaker 4: where I grew up in Alabama. It's like I've been lucky,

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Speaker 4: so my passion for all this is kind of borne

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Speaker 4: in and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to fake that when it's that deep

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Speaker 2: in your bones and your history.

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Speaker 3: And same for me. It's uh, it's these things.

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Speaker 2: They have given us so much, So much of our

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Speaker 2: lives have revolved around these places, these pursuits, these critters

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Speaker 2: you can't help but want to make sure they're still wrong.

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure that this this pumper can

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Speaker 2: keep on ticking right, you know.

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Speaker 4: I feel like there's a there is kind of in

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Speaker 4: my case, I've been so lucky with it. If there

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Speaker 4: is a quid pro quo. Yeah, And then being a

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Speaker 4: reporter like Field and Stream, I got to deep dive

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Speaker 4: into like some of the things that can go wrong

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Speaker 4: and some of the things that have gone right.

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Speaker 2: You know, and and and that's I guess why I

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Speaker 2: wanted to have you back on here again. I wish

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Speaker 2: we had good things that we maybe do have some

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Speaker 2: good things to talk about. But I think the major

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Speaker 2: impetus for giving you a ring again is the fact

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Speaker 2: that the boogeyman of six, seven, eight, nine years ago

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Speaker 2: that we were talking about with the public land transfer movement,

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Speaker 2: the divestment of public lands, the idea of selling or

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Speaker 2: transferring public lands that was getting really concerning in twenty fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Somewhere in that window, we're starting to see that starting

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Speaker 2: to rear its ugly head again. I think for a

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Speaker 2: minute there folks kind of felt like, all right, we've

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Speaker 2: got it tamped down. We got this thing as a

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Speaker 2: political poison pill. If you try to mess with our

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Speaker 2: public lands, it's going to be political suicide for you, right.

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Speaker 2: And in some of these recent years we felt pretty

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Speaker 2: good about things. But there have been some recent changes,

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Speaker 2: some recent attempts I think that are maybe forcing us

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Speaker 2: to open our eyes again to a new series of threats.

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Speaker 2: In this lawsuit coming out of Utah is maybe the

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Speaker 2: most glaring of those. And literally the day that we

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Speaker 2: started record, the day that we're recording this, some big

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Speaker 2: news has opened up on that front. Can you just

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Speaker 2: give us a quick rundown of what this latest attempt

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Speaker 2: to take our public lands was coming out of Utah,

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Speaker 2: why that was so concerning, and then what happened today?

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Speaker 4: Sure, and we can all be thankful that we live

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Speaker 4: in a country with a you can argue with however

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Speaker 4: you want, but with a functioning Supreme Court of the

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Speaker 4: United States. You know, anyway, we can argue about its

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Speaker 4: composition and all that, but the court did rule. It's

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Speaker 4: not for me or for you. The court ruled on

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Speaker 4: the basis of the lawsuit. The lawsuit was the State

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Speaker 4: of Utah filed a lawsuit against the United States federal government,

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Speaker 4: our government claiming that and I'm not sure how they

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Speaker 4: picked eighteen point five million acres of BLM Bureau of

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Speaker 4: Land Management managed public lands in Utah had to be

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Speaker 4: gotten rid of, had to be disposed of. They claimed

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Speaker 4: that it was unconstitutional for the US government to maintain

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Speaker 4: control or management of those lands under the good okay,

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Speaker 4: because they were unappropriated. And to try to get that

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Speaker 4: short but make it understandable is like people, if you

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Speaker 4: know about the homestead Acts. Right, So the United States

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Speaker 4: government gave away, for a very small fee, starting in

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Speaker 4: eighteen sixty two, parcels little land to settle the West.

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Speaker 4: We had already given away huge amounts in the east, right,

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Speaker 4: but in the West was opening up after the Civil War,

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Speaker 4: and so those lands, they were unappropriated lands that were

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Speaker 4: given to homesteaders. The great piece of history. It's one

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Speaker 4: of the reasons the United States is the way it is.

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Speaker 4: You know, it was a Jeffersonian concept from the beginning.

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Speaker 4: You know a lot about it, Mark and I. But

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Speaker 4: I'm just trying to boil it down. But yeah, so Utah, nobody,

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Speaker 4: nobody wanted these desert rock lands in Utah at that time,

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Speaker 4: and so they remained a part of the federal lands.

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Speaker 4: And Utah is claiming that they are unappropriated and so

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Speaker 4: they have to be gotten rid of. Okay, So the

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Speaker 4: problem with that, there's a lot of problems with the lawsuit,

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Speaker 4: which the Supreme Court found quickly this morning, was that

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Speaker 4: these lands are appropriated. They are federal public lands managed

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Speaker 4: for multiple use for the American.

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Speaker 3: People by the Bureau of Land Management.

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Speaker 4: By the Bureau of Land Management. In this case, the

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Speaker 4: problem with the lawsuit was that if it had been successful,

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Speaker 4: thirteen other states signed on to this boondoggle. And that's

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Speaker 4: a problem of the American culture wars right now, I

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Speaker 4: can tell you because the state of Alabama signed on

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Speaker 4: to this, and I guess they figured it unappropriated. Bankhead

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Speaker 4: National Forest, where some of the greatest public land in

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Speaker 4: the Southeast was also they're going to get a hold

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Speaker 4: of that. I don't know what they're planning. What the

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Speaker 4: concept was. I think it was a culture war thing.

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Speaker 4: We're all against the federal government. We better prove that

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Speaker 4: by signing on to this nutball lawsuit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because by signing this amicus brief, as I understand it,

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Speaker 2: that was nothing more than kind of ceremonial, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: they're signing onto this would not in any way change

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Speaker 2: the outcome of the lawsuit, right.

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Speaker 4: No, it would not, but it certainly threw a gauntlet

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Speaker 4: down as to who what these people believe about our

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Speaker 4: public lands and hunting and public hunting and fishing in

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Speaker 4: the Southeast and there we've got a big We've got

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Speaker 4: a big problem. This is this the amicus brief with

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Speaker 4: the additional signings shows us that we have a big

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Speaker 4: problem in amongst conservation, hunting and fishing and public lands

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Speaker 4: users in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Basically fifteen or sixteen states with a government that is

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Speaker 2: antagonistic towards our public lands.

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Speaker 4: Yes, was what that would show well? With with elected officials, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I would say, yeah, I mean, the governments, whatever we

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Speaker 4: make it, we vote for these dudes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Wyoming, Yeah, Wyoming, Alaska, Iowa, Alabama.

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Speaker 3: I think one or two of the Dakota's. There was

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Speaker 3: a long list of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think a whole lot of our listeners

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Speaker 2: live in those states. Yes, And I think that's a

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Speaker 2: clear sign that we've got some talking to do to

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Speaker 2: our representatives.

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Speaker 4: We do, and and so the so the the lawsuit

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Speaker 4: was tossed out this morning, dismissed this morning by the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court, with this enormous list of case law behind it.

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Speaker 4: Behind the dismissal that this this lawsuit is not valid.

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Speaker 4: Right that those lands are appropriated and they are appropriated

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Speaker 4: by That's not what this frime court said. They just

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Speaker 4: said the lawsuit wasn't valid. But the fact is is

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Speaker 4: that you know, the origins that we were talking before

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Speaker 4: we get record that the origins of this were the

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Speaker 4: anger from the off road vehicle community. This is what

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Speaker 4: I understand at the Bureau of Land Management for closing

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Speaker 4: down and trying to recover some places that that had

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Speaker 4: been become very overused by damaged right damage totally. Uh

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Speaker 4: And like Labyrinthe Canyon and the mo Ebb. I mean,

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Speaker 4: if you've ever gone to the Rock Crawler festival down there,

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Speaker 4: you know it's pretty pretty big. It's huge are these

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Speaker 4: are This is a huge industry.

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Speaker 2: I ended up down there once by accident at the

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Speaker 2: same time as the Easter weekend GSA.

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Speaker 4: Festival or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was it was wild, that's for sure.

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Speaker 4: Wow. And and I don't share in rock hopping and

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Speaker 4: you know, like like mad Max in on the on

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Speaker 4: the desert, right, but it's cool that other people do.

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Speaker 2: And that was, you know, one of my big takeaways

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Speaker 2: while I was down there. And what makes federal management

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Speaker 2: of our public lands so special is that we have

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Speaker 2: this multiple use mandate on them, right that stipulates that

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Speaker 2: this land is not just for the cattle grazers, not

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Speaker 2: just for the rock climbers, not just for the deer hunters,

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Speaker 2: or the miners or the oil drillers or the loggers

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Speaker 2: or the bird watchers. It's for all of us. And

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Speaker 2: there has to be some compromise there to to manage

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, nobody can get everything they want. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's just like living in a family or or sharing

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Speaker 4: a house with people. But the what what made me

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Speaker 4: amazed about this was that the impetus for this lawsuit,

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Speaker 4: and this we talked about this is kind of this

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Speaker 4: is like with the Bundies and all those other folks

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Speaker 4: too that were in the in the more it advised

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Speaker 4: Sagebrush rebel movement was if they got what they said

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Speaker 4: they wanted, they would be the ones that would be

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Speaker 4: the first loss. They would have to pay to go

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Speaker 4: rock hopping on the desert, and there would be huge

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Speaker 4: places like like when you think about the Amungiri Resort

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Speaker 4: down there just south of the Utah border in Arizona

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Speaker 4: where they charge what thirty eight hundred dollars a night

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Speaker 4: and they pick you up and fly you up in

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Speaker 4: a helicopter to do sunrise yoga on the mesa and

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Speaker 4: they have like, you know, little servants that come and

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Speaker 4: bring you the dates or whatever and make sure that

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Speaker 4: you're hydrated in the h you're not going on like

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Speaker 4: a good camera. But those people would be happy to

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Speaker 4: buy another thirty forty fifty thousand acres of this, of

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Speaker 4: course they would.

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Speaker 2: And so that's I mean, that's the same worry that

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Speaker 2: we had back in twenty sixteen about the land transfer

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Speaker 2: movement was basically, if federal public lands go to states,

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Speaker 2: states have a mandate to have a positive ROI on

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Speaker 2: those state lands. They have to make money off of them,

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Speaker 2: and they simply would not be able to do that

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Speaker 2: with this level of land and the management needed the

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Speaker 2: risk of wildfires and a thousand other things that would

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Speaker 2: just bankrupt a state inevitably leading them to have to

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Speaker 2: sell these lands. Right, isn't that still the case with

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Speaker 2: this situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's for sure that case. I mean Idaho did

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Speaker 4: a full study of that, and like they had to

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Speaker 4: cut down every tree, all the timber immediately in order

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Speaker 4: to p off like the management you know, costs. But

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Speaker 4: this this lawsuit was even more kind of wild because

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Speaker 4: if you look at the PR campaign for it, it

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Speaker 4: was stand for our Land or something, you know. But

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Speaker 4: the lawsuit actually said that the lands have to be

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Speaker 4: disposed of, that the federal government couldn't hold them. This

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Speaker 4: one didn't say they had to be transferred right to

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Speaker 4: the states. So this this was this was you're basically

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Speaker 4: a taxpayer in Utah was basically paying a PR firm

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Speaker 4: and a law firm to carry a lawsuit to take

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Speaker 4: away the very place they hike, hunt, or ride their

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Speaker 4: rock crawler. This one was like we're talking about the

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Speaker 4: Overton window, the things that are acceptable. This one was

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Speaker 4: throwing the Overton window over way off to right field

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Speaker 4: left field? And is that why?

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Speaker 2: I heard you say this on your on your podcast

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Speaker 2: at one point that this was maybe the slickest attempt

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Speaker 2: yet that you've seen for stealing our public lands. And

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Speaker 2: and there's a little bit of I think one thing

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Speaker 2: I worry about is issue fatigue over this thing. Right,

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Speaker 2: we keep on talking about challenges to public lands, the

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Speaker 2: threats to our public lands, and folks have been hearing

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Speaker 2: this for years and years and years now, and there's

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Speaker 2: this worry that eventually folks will stop paying attention. But

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Speaker 2: this one seemed like one that rose a lot more red.

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Speaker 3: Flags than usual. Why why was that?

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Speaker 2: Why did this one stand out as so concerning and

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Speaker 2: and maybe pretending something even more concerning in the future.

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Speaker 4: Well, because it was an incredible propaganda campaign. This one

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Speaker 4: was better. I was coming back we did uh we

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Speaker 4: were working Bureau Land Management uh sagebrush planting job in

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Speaker 4: October and we had one of them was in Colorado

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Speaker 4: and we came back to the Utah cardor Wassat's cardor there,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I saw those giant signs with these

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Speaker 4: like super nice looking people standing on them with their kids,

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Speaker 4: going stand for our land. And I thought it was

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Speaker 4: I mean, did you see the billboards. No not, They're

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Speaker 4: very very high end. Uh. And then it would say

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Speaker 4: go to stand for our land dot org. And then

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Speaker 4: there would be a map of the United States which

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Speaker 4: was like completely red west of the Mississippi, you know,

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Speaker 4: like the federal government controls everything. And it was funny

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Speaker 4: because they had even put all the Indian reservations on there.

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Speaker 4: And it was a but it was a slick propaganda campaign,

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Speaker 4: something like the Bundees and the the old Sagebrush rebel guys.

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Speaker 4: They would have never they would have never done this.

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Speaker 4: This was the governor of Utah and using the taxpayer

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Speaker 4: money to create a slick propaganda campaign to divest the

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Speaker 4: American people of some of the greatest red rock country

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Speaker 4: in the world.

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Speaker 2: This idea, though, that they're putting out there, the federal

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Speaker 2: government owns all your land. The big bad boogeyman bureaucrats

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Speaker 2: in DC are making horrible decisions. We the state, you,

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Speaker 2: the people here close to these lands, you should have

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Speaker 2: You should be able to control these places. The states

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Speaker 2: should be managing these places, et cetera. That it first glance,

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Speaker 2: might seem like an appealing message. Why And one other

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Speaker 2: thing I'll add is that we often hear and sometimes

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Speaker 2: have seen real shortcomings with federal management sometimes of our lands. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's not always perfect. There's a lot of challenges. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of a lot of issues, right, So

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Speaker 2: it's not perfect over there. So people love to complain

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Speaker 2: about federal management of everything. But in this case public lands. Sure,

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Speaker 2: why I guess what would you say to someone with

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Speaker 2: that set of critiques? Why is federal management actually a

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Speaker 2: good thing to continue? And why is it that this idea,

403
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Speaker 2: this alluring idea of local control, Why is that a

404
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Speaker 2: little bit of snake oil.

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Speaker 4: Well, because you have way more input into federally controlled

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Speaker 4: public lands. Federally manages public lands, and you ever will

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Speaker 4: under SITTLA. If you look at this, that SITTLA is

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Speaker 4: a state Land Board of Utah and they've been selling

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Speaker 4: off state lands at a great clip. Now, this that

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Speaker 4: state transfer movement will tell you right away that well,

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Speaker 4: we're not letting these aren't school trust lands. We're taking

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Speaker 4: over huge sections of federally managed public lands and we're

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Speaker 4: not going to make them school trust lands. So we

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Speaker 4: can do whatever we want with them. But the fact is,

415
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Speaker 4: what do they want to do. Do you think you

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Speaker 4: would have more local control over Sittla lands. You can't

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Speaker 4: even you can't even camp on state lands in Colorado

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Speaker 4: without permission, if I if I understand that right. Montana

419
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Speaker 4: fought a huge lawsuit in the nineteen eighties over public

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Speaker 4: access to state land Section. I mean, it's just let

421
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Speaker 4: me tell you, I think there is a lot of

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Speaker 4: mismanagement of every kind in America all the time, and

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Speaker 4: in Sudan and in Brazil and in Finland. Human beings

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Speaker 4: do good things and they do bad things, and federal

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Speaker 4: management of public lands is always in conflict, and it

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Speaker 4: should be. If you and I are inherit a great,

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Speaker 4: big mansion with our twelve siblings, we're going to argue

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Speaker 4: over whether the bathroom fixtures ought to be gold, how

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Speaker 4: steep the steps ought to be. When Grandma comes, we're

430
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Speaker 4: gonna argue over that, and we're gonna make mistakes, and

431
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Speaker 4: somebody's gonna paint the living room, you know, purple, and

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Speaker 4: you're gonna be furious about that. But that doesn't mean

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Speaker 4: that you give the mansion away to some dude from

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Speaker 4: Norway and everybody in the family live out on the

435
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Speaker 4: streets looking back at the mansion and going like, oh, man,

436
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Speaker 4: remember when I had that bedroom upstairs and we.

437
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 3: Played chess, and wasn't that nice?

438
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 4: Wasn't it great? And so I'm a big fan one.

439
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 4: I think that if we look at public land management

440
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 4: since eighteen ninety one when we had the first forest

441
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 4: reserve signed by President Harrison, you will find missteps, and

442
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 4: you will find all kinds of all kinds of things.

443
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 4: You will find good mostly good people working very hard

444
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 4: to try to do the right thing as they understand

445
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 4: it at that time, and you will see one of

446
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 4: the greatest success stories that Aldo Leopold. Aldo Leopold would

447
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 4: approve of seventy percent right. Sixty percent even Aldo Leopold,

448
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 4: the great conservation thinker of his time, who worked for

449
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 4: the Soil Conservation Service during the dust Bowl and was

450
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 4: the proponent of the first wilderness area, he would approve

451
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 4: about sixty percent right. And dude, when you have this

452
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 4: wonderful thing, you got to argue over the management. And

453
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 4: that's what we do. And this is good. It's good

454
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: to argue over. It's good for the OHV people to say,

455
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 4: bolm is stepping on my toes. I want to do this,

456
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 4: I want to do that, and people argue over that,

457
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 4: and they go out and look at Labyrinth Canyon and

458
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 4: they look at the places and they say, ah, this

459
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: is too much impact for me. And then somebody else goes,

460
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 4: ain't no impact here. This is wonderful. I love this.

461
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 4: Shooting on public lands is always going to be a

462
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 4: big It's going to be a big issue going forward.

463
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 4: Of course, can you take your refrigerator out there, you

464
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 4: blow it up with the ak and you drive off,

465
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 4: and somebody else goes like, oh my god, look at

466
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: this horrible thing. Right, and so you can't really do

467
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 4: that if you want to keep on acting that way. Yeah,

468
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 4: so we but it's not just compromise either. It's bringing people.

469
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 4: This is the great unifier the United States. Public land

470
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 4: unifies right left, Republican, Democrat, Independent. This is the last

471
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 4: of the great commons in this country.

472
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: And I think a key thing to remember is despite

473
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: the fact that we can point to plenty of things

474
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: that aren't just raight, we're plenty of things that we

475
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: personally aren't quite happy with we have. We are the

476
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: envy of the world in many cases with what we have,

477
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: with this imperfect yet still really damn good system. To

478
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: carefully manage these lands as best as possible for the

479
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: greatest number of people. With this multiple use mandate, we

480
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: have built in a set of people hate bureaucracy, but

481
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: sometimes when you have something as precious as this public

482
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: land estate, we should have a lot of guardrails in place.

483
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: We should have a lot of process in place, We

484
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: should have a lot of public input opportunities. But yeah,

485
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: it slows things down sometimes. Yes, it causes some speed

486
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: bumps and challenges, but it's that important. If you if

487
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: the states had this, none of that's.

488
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 5: There, no no, and and people, you know they the

489
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 5: nineteen seventies were the environmental decade, you know, when we

490
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 5: set a lot of that federal policy and law in place.

491
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 4: Flipmu for instance, in nineteen seventy six, the need for process,

492
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 4: a National Environmental Policy Act. Night was that seventy six, I.

493
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: Think somewhere in the ballpark.

494
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, And these are onerous and they're difficult to deal with,

495
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 4: and sometimes we we'll go back and look at them

496
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 4: and say do we need this? And that's the beauty

497
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 4: of having the mansion, having the land. We can figure

498
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: out and we'll make mistakes, and you know, if the

499
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 4: bureaucracy has gotten so overwhelming and bloated that it's not

500
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 4: working for public land management anymore. We have the voting power,

501
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: we have the citizen power to change that.

502
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: Well.

503
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: I think a great example of that was, you know,

504
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty whenever.

505
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: That was when.

506
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: As we moved through this land transfer movement, we were

507
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: able we as a collective outdoor collection of communities, hunters

508
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: and anglers and climbers and mountain bikers and outdoor enthusias

509
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: of all stripes, really stood up and rallied around public

510
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: lands and said, hey, this is not okay to transfer

511
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: these to states, this is not oka to to dispose

512
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: of them. And it got to a point where where

513
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: to get re elected in twenty twenty as a senator,

514
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: several Republican senators had to really make strong stands on

515
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: public lands and get the president at the time to sign,

516
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: for example, the Great American out Doors Act into law,

517
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: things that would show a win on the public lands

518
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: side of things. To help get the support of hunters

519
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: and anglers and other people who care about these things.

520
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: We were able to make it a political necessity. We

521
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: were able to influence change, and that that was just

522
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: for me a very encouraging sign that when we come

523
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: together on some of these things, we can steer the

524
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: ship that's right.

525
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 4: And I mean I envision a day when, you know,

526
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 4: never it's never going to stop people trying to get

527
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 4: a hold of the Utah pubbet lands, when somebody will

528
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 4: buy them or you know, and there's money to be

529
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 4: made off of getting rid of our public lands. I mean,

530
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 4: you can imagine what somebody would pay for the Talladega

531
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 4: National Forest in Alabama for instance, like like it would

532
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 4: be a lot, you know. So you have to choose.

533
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 4: The people have to choose to keep this institution that

534
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 4: we've inherited. You gotta choose. You gotta choose every and

535
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 4: kind of it's kind of like being on a personal

536
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 4: level of self discipline. You gotta choose every day today,

537
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 4: I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna I'm gonna get up early,

538
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 4: I'm gonna get to work. I'm gonna make my things happen.

539
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 4: You got to choose this every day because the world,

540
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 4: if you just let this slide, you'll lose the public lands.

541
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 4: It's just they're too valuable.

542
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: Well, and the thing about other people, it's it's an

543
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: unfortunate imbalance. We have to show up for every single fight,

544
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,239
Speaker 2: and we've got to win as many of them as

545
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: we can. And even if we win one of these fights,

546
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: like you just said, there's gonna be another one next

547
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: month or next year, five years down the road, are

548
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: fifty years down the road. These will continue over and

549
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: over and over again. On the flip side, if we

550
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: lose one of these battles, we lose some piece of

551
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: land or some classification of whatever it is. You lose

552
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: one of these battles, you lose these places forever in

553
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: many cases. So it's it's it's it's something we can't

554
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: take lately.

555
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 4: No, and for one of the dangers of living in

556
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: a functioning country is that you become incredibly complacent. I

557
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: mean it's like I would I often I oftn ask

558
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 4: people to imagine what the United States would be like.

559
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 4: Say you're raising your grandchildren in a place where the

560
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 4: public lands have been that whole idea has been lost,

561
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 4: and maybe you kept the national parks where you can

562
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 4: go if you you know you can't take your dog.

563
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: You gotta obey all the rules because everybody's there. You know,

564
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 4: you can't go out on the Blm Lands and walk

565
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 4: for a week. You can't go out in the Missouri

566
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 4: Breaks of Montana and and go illk hunting without paying

567
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 4: or getting permission. You know, you can't float the Missouri

568
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: River in camp I just ask people. You can't go

569
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 4: to the Sipsy Wilderness in Alabama or the Bienville National

570
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 4: Forest in Mississippi and just go down to the creek

571
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 4: with the kids. You gotta either pay or you got

572
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 4: to own it. I ask people all the time, what

573
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 4: would that would your country? How would that affect you? Well,

574
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 4: for a growing number of people, mark they don't care.

575
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 4: They don't go outside. They're own their game boys or

576
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 4: whatever you call it. And you know, and they don't care.

577
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 4: But for us, for the people who know, and the

578
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 4: people who know what our country, the beauty of our country,

579
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 4: American dirt, right, American water, American mountains. This is how

580
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 4: you get to experience this. This is where the rich

581
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 4: and the poor they all get the same. This is

582
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 4: America to me, and it's not just to me.

583
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I think there's a lot of

584
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: different parts of our American society, government, political system that

585
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: feel very out of our hands, that fear feel out

586
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 2: of our control, that feel so far above us and

587
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: what well, yes, yes that is true. But my point being,

588
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: I personally don't feel like I have much influence over

589
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: or could really change something when it comes to let's say,

590
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence policy and how that's going to impact the

591
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: future of our government and defense system and privacy matters,

592
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: let's say, but public lands and wildlife. Actually, we have

593
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: some pretty strong tangible means to influence decisions there. There

594
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: are there are systems in place, and it's it's really

595
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it's still huge, but it's still relatively approachable

596
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: enough that our voice is actually mattered. There are clear,

597
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: simple things we can do that can help, Like, we

598
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: can change this. This is a part of our country

599
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: that we should not feel nihilistic about because we actually

600
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: can change the narrative.

601
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 4: And we have since eighteen ninety one podcast I was

602
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 4: looked up. They had this guy, I think it was

603
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 4: in the twenties. They were the Week's Act had been

604
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 4: passed nineteen eleven, which allowed the federal government to buy

605
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 4: like logged out and abandoned lands in the East. Right,

606
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 4: they wanted their own national forests, and they had this guy,

607
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 4: Uncle Joe Kennon. He was a Senator from Illinois, and

608
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 4: every time anybody brought up in Congress that you know,

609
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 4: to purchase like the Apalachical and National forests, he would say,

610
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 4: not one cent for scenery. And he would yell the

611
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 4: same thing over and over, rope and uh. And so

612
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 4: we have we have had this. We have had Uncle

613
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 4: Joe Cannon with us since eighteen ninety one. At least

614
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 4: we had him with the robber barons in Montana, you know,

615
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 4: who said those who follow us can damn well take

616
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 4: care of themselves and then like drink some kind of

617
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 4: like super good liquor, you know, and while making fun

618
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 4: of all the people like working in the mine. But

619
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 4: we've had these people forever, and I think of Uncle

620
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 4: Joe Cannon. They still set up the Bankhead National Forest

621
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 4: in Alabama, Appalachian in Florida, the White Mountains National Forest.

622
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: He was yelling not one ship for trainery while we

623
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 4: while the rest of us were getting all this beautiful

624
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: stuff done. Right. Yeah. So what's happened more recently that

625
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: I really want to see changed is that we have

626
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: thrown public lands and conservation and clean water and the

627
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: future of our hunting vision in a culture war basket

628
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 4: where somehow it landed on the left side when it

629
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 4: couldn't be no more.

630
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 6: The most destructive environmental regimes on earth have been communists

631
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 6: have been leftists, true, and like Pinochet, and Chili was

632
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 6: a right winger and he was pretty bad.

633
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 4: Rady gave away the really sold their rivers. But the

634
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 4: trick was authoritarian regimes on right or left have been

635
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 4: terrible for people's freedom and for the environment. But we

636
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 4: have got to get conservation in the public lands out

637
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 4: of the culture wars basket. And we it's not in

638
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 4: there for me, it's not in there for you, But

639
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 4: we've got to get them out, and we've got to

640
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: bring them in front of the two political parties and

641
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 4: say this is what we're gonna do, buddy, little little feller.

642
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 4: We're keeping the National Forest Bureau of Land Management lands.

643
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 4: We're keeping all of our public lands and our National

644
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 4: Wildlife refuges, which are unbelievable crown jewels. We're keeping all

645
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 4: that stuff. We're gonna have clean water to fish in

646
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 4: and drink and big, strong, healthy kids raised on big

647
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 4: clean air because this is America. And now you can

648
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: argue over how to achieve that yeah, boys and girls

649
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: in Congress. But that goal is one that is going

650
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 4: to be outside of your political like grooviness, whatever it

651
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 4: is you're doing with the big signs where you're taking

652
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 4: the tax payer money and making big signs in Utah. Yeah,

653
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 4: and with that action.

654
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: And rather than this being an argument over is this

655
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: a goal that you know one party is going to

656
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: pursue and one's not. How about we argue over the

657
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: solutions rather than like doesn't matter, because it matters. We

658
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: have to make it known to both parties that this

659
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: matters to us. And then yeah, let's get the right

660
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 2: side and the left side to then debate and argue

661
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: and you know, butt heads over the right ways to

662
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 2: get there. But when it's all on one side, we're

663
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: in trouble.

664
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 4: We're in trouble. And it's not I mean, I just

665
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 4: don't think, well, I know people, people who know if

666
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 4: you fish or hunt, particularly, you know that you can't

667
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 4: do that without clean water and public lands and public access.

668
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not like some kind of theory. It's

669
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 4: not abstract. And the other problem is is we inherited this.

670
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 4: I'm older than you are, but you and I have

671
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 4: come up in a time where we had these things

672
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 4: based on the work and hard fault battles of our forebears.

673
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 4: I mean, the same kind of way we fought King George,

674
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 4: like we got this, we don't really have the right

675
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 4: to go, like, ah, it's just too much, you know,

676
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 4: like Beavis and butthead that thing where they were going

677
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 4: to save the people in the burning airplane but they

678
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: couldn't get the door opened, and he goes, he go

679
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 4: Beavis says, a, this is too hard, and the other

680
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 4: guy goes, yes, something's hard, it's not worth doing, and

681
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 4: they just leave and the planet bloods up. It's like

682
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: we inherited something wonderful, yeah, and we just can't. It

683
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 4: ain't gonna go on my watch.

684
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: No, so so it I'm I'm happy that our conversation

685
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: today is one that has some good news, which is

686
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: that this lawsuit that was still concerning for a lot

687
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 2: of people has been thrown out, so that battle was won.

688
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 2: We got you know, that gopher was knocked on the head.

689
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 4: That's yeah, that gopher. There's many other gophers coming.

690
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, some more gophers coming, right. It seems like this

691
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 2: is a sign of more to come. Can you can

692
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: you can you elaborate a little bit of what you

693
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: think might be coming next or what we need to

694
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: be keeping an eye out, because it seems like this

695
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: is not an anomaly, right right.

696
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 4: So the the problem with politics in the United States

697
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 4: right now is that it's become oversimplified, you know, And

698
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 4: that's true, and in this public land so that the

699
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 4: public land thing should not be a political issue, but

700
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,919
Speaker 4: it is. So what I think is coming is that

701
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 4: we are going to see more and more defunding of

702
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 4: the agencies that manage these lands. I know that the

703
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 4: wildlife refuges are kind of in funding crisis now, and

704
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 4: you're gonna see more and more. It's it's there's actually

705
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: a strategy here that's been going on since the seventies eighties,

706
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 4: where it's called defund and decry. So Congress doesn't allogate

707
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 4: the money to the to the say the US Forest

708
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 4: Service or the Forest Service has to spend all its

709
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 4: money on fires that doesn't get any more, and then

710
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 4: there's no trail work done, and then there's no there's

711
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 4: no creek restoration work done, there's no logging clean up done,

712
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 4: and people go like the the campground isn't clean enough,

713
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 4: and people go, this is ridiculous. I didn't bring my

714
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 4: family out here to look at a turned over outhouse.

715
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: And then you say, then somebody goes, you know, what

716
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 4: would really be good is if they didn't have this

717
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 4: far service stuff anyway, because they're not doing the job,

718
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,479
Speaker 4: are they so? And that's what is that. I see

719
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 4: that coming big time, and and I see overcrowding of

720
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 4: public lands. I thought it was gonna bring more constituents

721
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 4: in just to celebrate public lands. But in places overcrowded

722
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 4: on public lands, like during the COVID years year or

723
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: whatever that was, uh, people are going, man, this is awful.

724
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 4: There's too many people. And so I see that people

725
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 4: the ones who want to divest us of the public lands,

726
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 4: they're gonna be getting working the budgets down and they're

727
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 4: gonna be pointing out every instance of mismanagement and then going,

728
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 4: wouldn't it be good if like you didn't even have

729
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 4: this mansion?

730
00:43:51,120 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, you know, like you said, politics has unfortunately

731
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: gotten I guess I don't know how to describe it.

732
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 3: But politics are tribal.

733
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: They raise a lot of emotions that you get these

734
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: like team kind of ideas where if you identify as

735
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 2: a Republican or identify as a Democrat, you feel like

736
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: you're kind of you have to take everything in that bucket, right.

737
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: But if you were to look at the administration coming

738
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: in here next week and set everything else aside, everything

739
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: else that might that they're doing good, every decision that

740
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: we might be in supportive and if you look simply

741
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: at what happened last time around when it comes to

742
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 2: public lands, there are a series of trends which I

743
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: think fall in line with what you just said. I mean,

744
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: for example, last time the guy put in charge of

745
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: the Bureau of Land Management was one of the most

746
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: prominent folks speaking out against public lands, speaking out about

747
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: disposing of public lands, and that guy was put in

748
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: charge of the public lands last time. The playbook was

749
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: written by this guy again for the upcoming administration on

750
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: how to get rid of public lands, how to like

751
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: you said, defund, decry, etc. There was this death of

752
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: a thousand cuts that was taking place over the course

753
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: of that four years, where you saw many of our

754
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: national monuments significantly reduced in size, like Bear's Ears, where

755
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 2: I know you spend a bunch of time recently, Ascalante,

756
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: you saw some of some very special places, there's been

757
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: a lot of conversation around whether they are the right

758
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: place for really risky mining projects, things like you know

759
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: the Boundary Waters area where that was opened up possibly

760
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: for leases, and then most recently that was a moratorium

761
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: was put in place, but there we might see that

762
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 2: opened up again. Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge,

763
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: an incredible iconic landscape of America, has been debated for

764
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: many decades, and whether or not that's to be opened

765
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: up for drilling never was opened up until this last administration.

766
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: The Roadless Rule something that's protected these last roadless areas

767
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: across our national forests that was rescinded in the areas

768
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: such as the Tongest National Forest. So there's there's all

769
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: of these different examples where public lands and healthy wild

770
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: places were kind of slashed away at, picked away at,

771
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 2: picked away at, picked away at, defunded, et cetera. Everything

772
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: else aside in this one arena, there's a lot of

773
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: sign for concern based on what happened last time around.

774
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 4: Yes, do you expect a.

775
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: That to continue as it was? Do you think it's

776
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: going to accelerate given the fact that there's not a

777
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: second time around they're shooting for.

778
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 3: This is like, this is it?

779
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: Do you have any other thoughts predictions on as far

780
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 2: as what we need to be keeping tabs on, prepared

781
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: to fight back on anything like that.

782
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 4: I do so. One the last one twenty sixteen through

783
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 4: we saw the rescinding of the monuments in Utah, right,

784
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 4: so there was a weird quid pro quo there where

785
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 4: Utah kind of delivered for President Trump and so they

786
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 4: got these things in return. And that's a big can

787
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 4: of worms. It's really interesting. I think people should that

788
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 4: are listening to this should be looking at that, like,

789
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 4: you know, you deliver so x number the majority of

790
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 4: the vote and you'll get this. You know, did the

791
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 4: American people want the reduction of Bears, Ears or Grand

792
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 4: Staircase Escalante? They did not, and they said that repeatedly,

793
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 4: but they got that. That's what happened to us anyway.

794
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 4: So in a sense that was a but in a

795
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 4: sense that was a quid pro quo to the Utah.

796
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 4: So I think that's really repulsive and I don't think

797
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: that the American people are going to accept that. But

798
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 4: like the appointment of William Parker Penley as head of

799
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 4: the BLM, who is this fossil from the early Reagan

800
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 4: years who was so scandal ridden even then as a

801
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 4: young man that he went out with James Watt back

802
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 4: in those days. Right, But so so there was this

803
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 4: fossil there that they found because they were, as President

804
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 4: Trump said, the first time, we were highly unprepared to win.

805
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 4: We were really not prepared. We didn't understand so much

806
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 4: of what we wanted to do during those four years.

807
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 4: Whether you agree with that or not. Right, So, on

808
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 4: this administration this time, as my wife said this the

809
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 4: other day, the American people voted to kick over the

810
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 4: apple cart for a lot of different reasons. Yeah, and

811
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 4: a lot of apples have spilled out, and we're going

812
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: to determine. Now, this is way different than the first administration,

813
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 4: although it's so similar in that it is radically pro business. Okay,

814
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 4: so if you can make money mining out right outside

815
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 4: the boundary waters, that's going to be on the table,

816
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 4: and the America people will be asked to engage deeply

817
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 4: to say we're pro business as well, we understand these things.

818
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 4: To have a multinational global company come and put in

819
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 4: jeopardy to boundary waters, it's not our dear idea of

820
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 4: good business. We're not going to do that, Okay. Ambler

821
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 4: Road in Alaska probably not good business to open that

822
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 4: up again. I would ask anybody to listen to the

823
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 4: podcast I did with John Leshie about the eighteen seventy

824
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 4: two mining law. We're talking about expanding mining on public

825
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 4: lands in the United States East and West under a

826
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 4: law written in eighteen seventy two to encourage a guy

827
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 4: with a pickaxe and a burrow to go grab public

828
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 4: land to make it his own and dig a hole

829
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 4: and find something that we needed. That law has to

830
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 4: be reformed, repealed, rescinded before we can do mining in

831
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 4: America in a in a sensible fashion of good business.

832
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 4: So the fact that that law is not on the

833
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 4: table here, that's very concerning. People should be working on

834
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 4: that now. The American people should demand that American minerals

835
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 4: are used for by American companies to produce American jobs

836
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 4: and American resources. All right. So there's going to be

837
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 4: a radical pro business emphasis in the Trump administration, Okay,

838
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 4: but I myself am not afraid. I think that we

839
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 4: should be wary, and we should say that's good business

840
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 4: and that's not good business, and we will stand for this,

841
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 4: and we will not stand for this, and we're going

842
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 4: to be able to do that. And for instance, the

843
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 4: government efficiency or whatever, the department of whatever that extraining

844
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 4: this extracurricular thing is, we could use that mark, We

845
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 4: could use that, We could use that in public lands management.

846
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 4: How do we make public lands management better, more efficient?

847
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 4: How do we get local communities employed finn and timber

848
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 4: in the Tongus? How do we get local communities employed

849
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 4: restoring creeks in the bitter Root after those fires? Right?

850
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 4: Because we are not doing that right now and it's

851
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 4: not good.

852
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 3: Doesn't that come back though, to the budget issues?

853
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 4: So much of it we don't on prioritization of the budget.

854
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 4: I noticed that we have lots of budget for certain

855
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 4: things that I don't particularly think are healthy. I'm saying,

856
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 4: like the American people are going to have to say,

857
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 4: you know, creek restoration on public lands is a priority

858
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 4: for me, and you can do whatever you want with

859
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 4: this money, but we would like to see it allocated

860
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,399
Speaker 4: in this way more efficiently as well. You know, I'm

861
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 4: not sure that that building new RV parks is really

862
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 4: a great use of the money. For instance, Yeah, when

863
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 4: you have areas where you could, you could fence off

864
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 4: rapoia in places and create incredible fisheries in clean water

865
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 4: down Street when you have just all of this work

866
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 4: that we could be do with. So I just I'm

867
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 4: not afraid of this. I may turn out to be

868
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 4: a Pollyanna or overly optimistic, but I believe that when

869
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 4: the American people decided to upset the apple cart here

870
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 4: that it doesn't mean that we want filthier water and

871
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 4: no public lands and and all of us to have

872
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 4: our all our rare earth materials stolen by some company

873
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 4: from Chili.

874
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 2: Would you would you say, though, given what seems to

875
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 2: be a pretty clear, as you said, probi business emphasis

876
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 2: for the next four years, very pro business, if we

877
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 2: were to grow complacent and bury our heads and our

878
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 2: phones and our Netflix shows, and or just being out

879
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 2: in the woods by ourselves, hunting and fishing and just

880
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: doing our own thing, if we were to do that

881
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 2: and not engage, whether it's going to come up in

882
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: the next four years with this radical, very pro business agenda,

883
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: would it be fair to say that we could.

884
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 3: Expect to see a lot of these special places.

885
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 2: In danger if we don't make sure we're in it.

886
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 4: One hundred and Not only that, but they're the the

887
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 4: the powers that wont to take over public lands and

888
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 4: sell them to their wealthy friends. Our ascendant right now, Yeah,

889
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean the I mean, we have probably

890
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 4: the most billionaires making policy that we've ever had, and

891
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 4: the few is like normal people. So you're gonna have

892
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 4: to counter that. But there's three hun undred and forty

893
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 4: something million Americans. Let me, I have a quote that

894
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 4: I always use, and it's perfect for this thing. The

895
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 4: struggle may be a moral one, or it may be

896
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 4: a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical,

897
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 4: but there will be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without

898
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 4: a demand. It never did, and it never did. Will

899
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 4: find out just what any people will quietly submit to,

900
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 4: And you have found out the exact measure of injustice

901
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 4: and wrong which will be imposed upon them. And these

902
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 4: will continue until they're resisted with words or blows or both.

903
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 4: The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of

904
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 4: those whom they oppress. That was Frederick Douglass talking about

905
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 4: slavery in the South. Wow. So that's what I think.

906
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 4: If you are not willing to stand up, or if

907
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 4: you're watching and the running on the treadmill at the

908
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 4: gym watching Fox News. They're making you think there's only

909
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 4: two kinds of Americans and they hate each other and

910
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 4: they won't ever agree on anything. And I don't know

911
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 4: why the other side does it too, I guess, but

912
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 4: I don't know why they're what motive we have for

913
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 4: dividing the American people, But if we remain this divided,

914
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 4: we'll lose the public lands and the conservation that supports

915
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 4: hunting and fishing. We shouldn't be divided over that.

916
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: We have talked about various permutations of this issue, you know,

917
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: at least over the last decade. You and I I

918
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 2: know what You've talked about many many other people over

919
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,720
Speaker 2: many decades. So now in twenty twenty five, we're quarter

920
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 2: of the way through this new millennia.

921
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 3: I guess it'd be or sorry century. What can we

922
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 3: do now?

923
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: What are the most positive productive means for not just

924
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: enduring what might be coming, but also influencing in a

925
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 2: positive way. What's the battle cry? What's the game plan

926
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 2: here of these coming years?

927
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 4: I think we're going to have to So the energy

928
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 4: is on the right wing at the moment, and we

929
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 4: as conservatives or whatever you political label you want to

930
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 4: put on most hunters and fishermen are going to have

931
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 4: to get through to the elected people, the people we

932
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 4: vote for, that these things are priorities and that they

933
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 4: will not be thrown in some basket of culture war topics.

934
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 4: That these are the wildlife refuge system. It's so wonderful,

935
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 4: like it is such a crown jewel of America. The

936
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 4: national forests are so important to us, our us as

937
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 4: as Americans, our identity, our freedom. Okay, these are not

938
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 4: political footballs. And so we're going to have to get

939
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 4: through into this pro business community that we that there

940
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 4: are certain things we will not be, we will not accept,

941
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 4: you know. I mean this is another topic. But we

942
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 4: we have huge success stories all the way back to

943
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 4: eighteen ninety one on conservation in America, and huge the

944
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 4: dextervation of the bison, the loss of almost all the

945
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 4: waterfowl that you know. So we we had these huge

946
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 4: failures and these enormous successes, and we're doing both right

947
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 4: now again. But we're like we're failing with clean water

948
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 4: throughout the Midwest, really failing. And we let the Clean

949
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 4: Water Act be trimmed back to its original definition in

950
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two to the point where we're failing to

951
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,919
Speaker 4: protect the clean water that supports fishing and swimming and

952
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 4: all that. So we have these huge failures, and the

953
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 4: folks that we just elected are not the ideal people

954
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 4: to address that. Let's say that I'm going to be

955
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 4: very objective here. The folks that we just object elected.

956
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 4: Donald Trump, for instance, will tell you that he doesn't

957
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 4: know anything about that. That's what he told the Farm

958
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 4: Bureau when they rescinded the Waters of the US rule

959
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 4: last time. He said, I don't even know what it is,

960
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 4: but it's terrible, and you folks told me that we

961
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 4: don't want it, and so I'm getting rid of it.

962
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 4: He said the same thing about the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

963
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 4: He said, nobody cares about this. It's open, right. So

964
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 4: obviously people didn't speak up and say that's not true.

965
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 4: We do care about it. And you may not support

966
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 4: the Waters of the US rule, but I'll bet you

967
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 4: don't support eating drinking blue green algae in de moins.

968
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 4: So these folks, I see this as an opportunity, mark totally.

969
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 4: I don't think somebody like Elon Musk is so focused

970
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 4: on Mars or Venus or whatever that planet they want

971
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 4: to go to, which is fine with me. I'm like,

972
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 4: have at it, man, little rockets, you know, like I

973
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 4: like smart people. Sure, right, But here's the thing. A

974
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 4: guy who's spending a lot of time thinking about Mars

975
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 4: and stuff, he's probably not thinking about the water fishing

976
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 4: in Des Moines, yes, or in Sioux Falls. And that's

977
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 4: our business and that's what we know. And so but

978
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 4: I would say this, I doubt that President Trump or

979
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 4: Elon Musk or vvak Ramus, I bet none of them

980
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 4: actually are going like, you know, what I really want

981
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 4: to do is get rid of the Talladega National Forest, right,

982
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 4: you know, you know what I bet i'd like to do.

983
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 4: I'd like to pollute mobile base so nobody can fish

984
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 4: in it or have a nice house on it. They're

985
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 4: not doing that. And these are jd Vance for instance,

986
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 4: when to Yale whatever, the guy has some education, he's

987
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 4: not gonna say that clean water is not important. So

988
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 4: it's up to us now to put some apples back

989
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 4: in this apple cart and say this apple's really important.

990
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 4: Don't let that one go down the hill. And I

991
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 4: honestly think that we're in a place where we could have,

992
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 4: We could effect positive change in the United States right

993
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 4: now that to me, we've been a little too complacent

994
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 4: to do. We've kind of rested on the laurels of

995
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies and a Wilderness Act of sixty four

996
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 4: and the dust bowl stuff. You know, that's what I think.

997
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 4: I'm pretty excited. Actually. I think it's a very dangerous

998
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 4: time for all the reasons you mentioned, and I think

999
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 4: that times of danger kind of make me feel better.

1000
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: So what are some specific tactics or actions that we

1001
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: as individuals can take to help make sure that we

1002
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: grab this apple, put it back in the cart, and say, hey, folks,

1003
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 2: this one's really important. Do not screw this one up,

1004
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 2: give this one some tender love and care. Listen to us.

1005
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 3: How do we actually do that?

1006
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 4: Hell?

1007
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 2: Because I it's an idea and it's a sentiment that

1008
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense, But I think a lot

1009
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 2: of folks then still wonder, like, well, what does that

1010
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 2: mean to my daily life, or what does that mean

1011
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 2: for me this week? Or how do why is an

1012
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 2: individual in Des Moines, Iowa actually do that?

1013
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 4: Well, I've decided and it's I do handle the podcast

1014
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 4: or back undrenders and anglers. So maybe I have a

1015
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 4: conflict of interest there, but I decided in the last

1016
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 4: ten years looking, I've been writing this book for five

1017
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 4: and a lot of the research was on how did

1018
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 4: we get like how did you get the Clean Water

1019
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 4: Act passed? You know? And one as a as a

1020
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 4: as an individual, read books and listen to podcasts and

1021
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 4: and and really concentrate on what it is that you

1022
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 4: think is important in life. I'm this is kind of like, like,

1023
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 4: like what this is. I wrote a piece for Field

1024
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 4: and Stream years ago and it was in response to

1025
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,919
Speaker 4: unfettered energy development on their own plateau which I went

1026
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 4: to see and I thought, this is not good, right

1027
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 4: this We can get the energy without doing this right?

1028
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 4: And uh, I wrote a piece called what do you

1029
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 4: really believe in? And so number one, I'm going to

1030
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 4: answer this as quickly as I can. What do I

1031
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 4: really believe in? You know, like clean water and having

1032
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 4: kids swimming and catching crawdads and a creek that doesn't

1033
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 4: poison them, having public lands where I can go, like

1034
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 4: a person can go hunting for a week or even

1035
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,479
Speaker 4: a day, or you could just take a six pack

1036
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 4: of beer out and sit on the river, you know, right,

1037
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 4: so I think that the hunters and fishermen are listening

1038
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 4: to your podcast are going to say, I do believe

1039
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 4: in these things. I believe in them strongly. And the

1040
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 4: second thing, which it took me a while because I'm

1041
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 4: kind of highly individualistic, was that old Hemingway thing from

1042
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 4: to have and have not, where the guy says a

1043
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 4: man alone just ain't got no chance. And the truth

1044
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 4: is is Trout Unlimited backcountry hunters and anglers, Isaac Walton

1045
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 4: League Ducks Unlimited to the Mix is probably the greatest

1046
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 4: wetlands conservation group in the world. They all have problems.

1047
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 4: They're running by human beings, and human beings are fallible, yes,

1048
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 4: but Americans in large teams have really driven the positive

1049
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 4: changes that we're talking about. And that I hate. I

1050
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 4: don't hate to say it, I just it took me

1051
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 4: a long time to get to this is you gotta

1052
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 4: join with like minded brothers and sisters. And those numbers

1053
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 4: equate to a politician going like sending the staff. We

1054
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 4: got to meet these folks. Sorry, I don't want to

1055
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 4: hear about clean water in Iowa, but there's like twenty

1056
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 4: five thousand people who might not vote for me next time.

1057
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 4: And then one of the old time politicians. I think

1058
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 4: a guy told me this once in DC. He said, yeah,

1059
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 4: it's a good idea, Now make me do it. That's it. Yeah,

1060
01:04:54,600 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 4: And it's tough because used to be sportsman. In the

1061
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 4: nineteen thirties, they had all of these local sportsmen groups

1062
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 4: and Montana was full of them. I don't know about

1063
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 4: where you grew up, if it was or not, but

1064
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 4: Montana was full of them. Or Valley County Sportsmen, great

1065
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 4: prickly pair of sportsmen, Hellgate hunters and anglers in Missoula,

1066
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 4: and they were incredibly politically active on a statewide and

1067
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 4: local level. And those they got older and older. I

1068
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 4: would go to the meetings, you know, and everybody got

1069
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 4: older and older, and then they just kind of they're

1070
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 4: still around, some of them, but they've they've waned in power,

1071
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 4: and so I would like to see that again. But

1072
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 4: I don't think we're gonna see that because people are

1073
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,919
Speaker 4: so busy, man, Like you got little kids. My kids

1074
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 4: are grown and I'm still like like college tuition. Oh,

1075
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 4: and everybody's busy, but it's not. You're not too busy

1076
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 4: really to join like back huntry hunters and anglers or

1077
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 4: or Trout Unlimited or something. Yeah, and they're thereby amplify

1078
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 4: your voice, multiply your voice. That's my answer. I guess. Yeah,

1079
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 4: what is the public lands equivalent to that? Like National

1080
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 4: Forest Foundation?

1081
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like you said, BHA is about as

1082
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 2: good of a modern day version of these sportsman's clubs too,

1083
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 2: right with Pine Knights and things like that. Like that's

1084
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 2: that's the best example I've seen of the younger crowd

1085
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: activating as a community.

1086
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 4: Yeah. I would let me add this to And you've

1087
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 4: done some of this, I've done some I've done some

1088
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 4: of it, But I would like to do more volunteering

1089
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 4: with like these BHA things and in meeting people of

1090
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 4: like mind. Ye. I gotta tell you. I was. I

1091
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 4: was feeling very beat down the other day, and I

1092
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 4: was working on a chapter in my book which involved Alabama.

1093
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 4: And I called a young guy there who's a biologist

1094
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 4: and a fanatical hunting and fision guy, and he was

1095
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 4: on his way to waterfowl hunting up in North Alabama,

1096
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 4: and it happened to be in a place that I

1097
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 4: went to in high school. And we got it on

1098
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 4: Google Earth and we looked at it, and I felt

1099
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 4: better for three days after just talking with Joe Jenkins

1100
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 4: and his enthusiasm for going hunting down there, and I

1101
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 4: realized that there's all these people who love the same

1102
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 4: things I do and are are really motivated to fight

1103
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 4: for them, and that you meet those It's like those

1104
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 4: fence removal things they had in Colorado and in eastern

1105
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 4: Montana while wetlands restoration planting projects. It's, yeah, we gotta

1106
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 4: we gotta seek out people of like mind and begin

1107
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 4: to form tribe.

1108
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, get that snowball rolling and those little local volunteer

1109
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 2: efforts might not save the world today, but those are

1110
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 2: those start points. And like you said, you bring community together,

1111
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 2: you establish new connections, you build energy off of each other,

1112
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 2: you gain your tank is refueled by being around other

1113
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: like minded people. Yeah, so such a great example.

1114
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 4: You know, stories and then and I just saw it

1115
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 4: like if I were, if I were really young now,

1116
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 4: I'd be volunteering on a lot of those to try

1117
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 4: to find people of like mine. Man.

1118
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was such a great You know, I've

1119
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 2: done ten of those over the last twenty four months

1120
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:33,680
Speaker 2: or so for the Working for Wildlife tour, and that

1121
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,639
Speaker 2: was my biggest takeaway from that was just the power

1122
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 2: of bringing these people together that all care about this stuff,

1123
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 2: and so many signs of hope just by being around

1124
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 2: each other and hearing stories and doing something actual, tangible,

1125
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 2: positive right here and now you're making a positi difference.

1126
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 2: Right now, you are regaining agency. We talked earlier about

1127
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 2: how so much feels outside of our control. But when

1128
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 2: you're out there on the ground planting a tree alongside

1129
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 2: another guy or girl who also loves hunting or fishing

1130
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 2: in the outdoors, you can't help but feel a little

1131
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,720
Speaker 2: bit better, and you can't help but be inspired to

1132
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: do a little bit better the next time too.

1133
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 4: I mean that's how we've been doing it since cave

1134
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 4: man days, right, Yeah, Like get that mammoth and then

1135
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 4: everybody think happy everybody was when you got the mammoth,

1136
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 4: and like you're clapping him on the back. You might

1137
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 4: hate this guy, you know when you're not hunting, but

1138
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 4: you're going like, man, what a good shot with that

1139
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 4: at laddle, right, Like this is community and the and

1140
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 4: the ladies are all happy. They're like hauling the meat back,

1141
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 4: you know, and it's like this is community, this is tribe.

1142
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 4: It's something in us. It's as old as human beings, right, yeah,

1143
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 4: And I was I was following y'all when you were

1144
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 4: doing that. We were actually and see, I've been doing

1145
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 4: this big planting job, but that's a paid job with

1146
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 4: the Mule Deer Foundation. It's it's a beautiful job, but

1147
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 4: it's not the same. Everybody's there to you know, it's work.

1148
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 4: Everybody's with a huge gold but it's work. And those

1149
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 4: volunteer things. We rolled fence, and dude, it was so

1150
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 4: I know you've been doing this, but it was so

1151
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 4: it is actionable, quantifiable yep. Right, we were taking they

1152
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 4: were dead. There was hair and dead mule deer at

1153
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 4: this crossing and that fence was completely useless. It was

1154
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 4: just left there from after a forest fire like twenty

1155
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 4: years ago. And we rolled that fence right out of

1156
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:35,799
Speaker 4: that mule deer trail that came from the high country

1157
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 4: to the to the winter room.

1158
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 3: You did it.

1159
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, Observable, actionable, quantifiable. That's that's what I kept asking people,

1160
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 4: like with the climate chain stuff and all that that

1161
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 4: I got so dis engaged from because I was like,

1162
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,520
Speaker 4: I was like, I just need to see something actionable, quantifiable,

1163
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 4: and observable, and that's you know, planting, restoring wetlands, restoring grassland,

1164
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 4: clanton trees, burning fuels reduction yep. I was like, I

1165
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 4: won't add actionable, quantifiable, observable, and those volunteer projects are

1166
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 4: all of that.

1167
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, such a great example. So I was going

1168
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,639
Speaker 2: to ask you a question which you just already answered mostly,

1169
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 2: but I will give you an opportunity to add anything

1170
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:37,240
Speaker 2: else to it. The question being, you know, one of

1171
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 2: the first things you said that we should do entering

1172
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 2: this era is to get educated, right, to pay attention

1173
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 2: to this stuff. And so I think this is something

1174
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 2: I've brought up to you maybe every time we've talked

1175
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 2: some version of this. But you know, there's the famous

1176
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:55,600
Speaker 2: Leopold quote the curse of an ecological education is discovering

1177
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 2: that you live in a world of wounds, something along

1178
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 2: those lines. He said, Basically, the more we educate ourselves

1179
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 2: on these issues, the more we pay attention to the

1180
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 2: news about the environment and public lands and wildlife, the

1181
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 2: more you're going to realize there's a lot of stuff

1182
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 2: in danger, there's a lot of stuff getting you know,

1183
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff that's not doing great right.

1184
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 2: So what I'm always looking for are ways to maintain hope,

1185
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 2: ways not to feel like, man, this whole thing's going

1186
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 2: to the shit or eventually. You mentioned a couple of

1187
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 2: great examples ways to do that, getting involved community volunteering.

1188
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 2: You mentioned just talking to someone who's going on hunting

1189
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 2: and being.

1190
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:34,599
Speaker 3: Reinvigorated through that.

1191
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 2: Do you have any other things in your life that

1192
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 2: help you stay positive, because sometimes when you zoom out

1193
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 2: and you look at the long term trajectory of our

1194
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 2: natural world and the environment and clean air and wildlife

1195
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 2: across the world and all that kind of stuff, it

1196
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:52,640
Speaker 2: can get a little dark and dreary.

1197
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:54,679
Speaker 3: How do you stay hopeful?

1198
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 4: Boy? I hope you don't edit that. You may have

1199
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:06,440
Speaker 4: to edit this out. But uh So, the all species

1200
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 4: go through population overshoots, and not all of them, but most,

1201
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 4: and they fill up their ecological niche and then they

1202
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 4: decline in numbers. They don't go extinct. It's not like

1203
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 4: apocalypse and fire and that you right. So, human population

1204
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 4: on our planet is supposed to peak at like nine

1205
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:30,680
Speaker 4: point eight ten billion, maybe twelve, I'm not sure, but

1206
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,719
Speaker 4: it peaks at about two hundred and fifty years much

1207
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 4: less probably, and at that point, the children, our great

1208
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 4: great grandchildren are going to be living in a world

1209
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 4: that is in recovering from all of the things that

1210
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 4: people did to get insatiable resource demand. Right. So here's

1211
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,679
Speaker 4: my point, and I call this carry in the fire.

1212
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 4: Those of us who understand how powerful the rivers and

1213
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 4: the forests and the wildlife are have a unique moment

1214
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 4: in history. What we prioritize, conserve, protect, steward now is

1215
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 4: what's going to be in that recovering world in one

1216
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty years. And so there has never been

1217
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 4: a time where it was more important to teach your

1218
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,640
Speaker 4: children to hunt and shoot and how beautiful it is

1219
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 4: to hunt squirrels and to take food from the land

1220
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 4: and fish from the water, and know that that water

1221
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 4: is clean enough that it's going to make you strong

1222
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 4: and healthy so you can run one hundred yard dash tomorrow.

1223
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:50,759
Speaker 4: It is or this is physicality too, like to teach

1224
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 4: children and to keep ourselves fit right to be powerful

1225
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 4: and strong, and to teach our children like health and

1226
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 4: connections to nature. Because this is the fire that we're

1227
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 4: going to carry through what this population overshoot into a

1228
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 4: future where maybe there's one billion people on earth and

1229
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 4: there are incredible numbers of wildlife and fish and oceans

1230
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 4: pouring around without big plastic garbage patches and stuff. Right

1231
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 4: but right now is the moment. And I think about that,

1232
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:29,280
Speaker 4: and I think about Doug Talamy's Homegrown National Park stuff

1233
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:32,679
Speaker 4: where they're saying, man, you don't have to have twenty acres.

1234
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 4: You can plant a pollinator belt of native plants in

1235
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:39,640
Speaker 4: your yard and those pollinators are going to drive in

1236
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 4: that place. Like my own backyard garden has so much

1237
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 4: diversity in it now of these insects that I've just

1238
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 4: never seen before, and it's kind of like it's not

1239
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 4: very big, and they came from somewhere and they came

1240
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 4: there because I planted these pollinators. And it's a microcosm.

1241
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 4: But what is the microcosm except for these made up

1242
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 4: of these small things. So I'm I'm actually and it's

1243
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 4: my bias, right, Like I already wanted to teach my

1244
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 4: kid how to pike fish. And my daughter is a

1245
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 4: fisherman and and a hunter, and my son is a

1246
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 4: hunter and a fisherman, and and they they know the

1247
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 4: power of these things because my wife and I taught

1248
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 4: it to them. But it's they're carrying this fire and

1249
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 4: they're young they're not like in big conservation groups going

1250
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,760
Speaker 4: to d C advocating with that. That's our business, right,

1251
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 4: but they know what they know where the bread's buttered,

1252
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 4: they know what's powerful. Yeah, and it's our it's our

1253
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 4: business to carry that fire through this time and so

1254
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 4: that that making sure that it goes on.

1255
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 2: It's a hell of an obligation. But we're awfully we're

1256
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 2: awfully fortunate to be able to do it.

1257
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful obligation because for me it

1258
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:09,479
Speaker 4: involves doing what I already want to do.

1259
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 3: True, it's a there's a lot worth fighting for still,

1260
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:16,760
Speaker 3: that's for sure.

1261
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 4: Oh my, so much, there is so much left to

1262
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 4: not left. There's just so much there. Like I mean,

1263
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 4: I live near the Lewis in Clark National Forest, and

1264
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 4: I don't know where you're at on this, but like

1265
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 4: this morning I went, I was going to the dump

1266
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 4: and the wolf. It's called the wolf moon, this moon,

1267
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 4: this January moon, and I don't know if it's an

1268
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 4: optical illusion or not, but it was like five feet

1269
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 4: it was the biggest moon I've ever seen going down

1270
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 4: over the mountains.

1271
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:47,719
Speaker 3: Wow.

1272
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 4: And I thought, just how lucky I was one to

1273
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 4: have the Bob Marshall wilderness out there west of my house,

1274
01:17:55,479 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 4: and two to see this moon and had gotten up,

1275
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 4: you know, before you've got light. So I got to

1276
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 4: see this and it was it was a thing where

1277
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 4: I just felt lucky. And to who much is given,

1278
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 4: much is expected. I think.

1279
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 2: Yep, so so true and perfect, perfect sentiments to kind

1280
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 2: of send us out here. Can can you tell us

1281
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 2: how you've you've alluded to this book project you've been

1282
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 2: working on for a few years now. Are you at

1283
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 2: a point you can tell us anything about that yet?

1284
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 2: Can you tease it? Can you give us anything as

1285
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:33,600
Speaker 2: far as what to look forward to or when to

1286
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 2: look forward to it?

1287
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm I'm gonna finish this year.

1288
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 3: I don't know that.

1289
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 4: I guess it'll be out next year. I'm a but uh,

1290
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,160
Speaker 4: it's a public lands book, and it's a lot of

1291
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 4: it is profiles of and of trips like on national

1292
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,920
Speaker 4: forests and part of it. I mean I read your

1293
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 4: book early, and you and I are how many years

1294
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 4: ago is that we talked about these projects?

1295
01:18:56,720 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 2: Well like seven, yeah, something like that, because my book

1296
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:04,960
Speaker 2: came out at the end of twenty nineteen, right, so I.

1297
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:07,680
Speaker 4: Think seven years ago you told me. I said, well,

1298
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 4: I got this contract, I'm working on this book, and

1299
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 4: you're like, I'm working on one too, and you'd been

1300
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 4: at it for a couple of years. But it's and

1301
01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 4: your book is also experiential. You know, are talking about

1302
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 4: this before we hit the record, I wanted to do

1303
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:25,880
Speaker 4: a it did turn out to be brief, but a

1304
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:29,680
Speaker 4: history of how we got public lands and an understanding

1305
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:33,679
Speaker 4: of all the issues regard to that. But I wanted

1306
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,720
Speaker 4: the second part of the book to be journeys, just trips,

1307
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 4: and so I've done some incredible trips. Mostly I've sat here,

1308
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 4: as you know, as a writer, sat here like a

1309
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 4: limpet glued to this chair. But the it's like places

1310
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 4: like the Tuskegee National Forests in Alabama. It's kind of

1311
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 4: a deep dive into the history and what's there, and

1312
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 4: based around a trip there on the Bartram Trail, which

1313
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 4: if anybody's listening to this, you know, go like as

1314
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 4: the winter gets went towards spring, man, go go look

1315
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 4: at the Bartram Trail, And that's James Bartram, the naturalists

1316
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 4: who went to the Creek Nation back in seventeen nineties,

1317
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 4: I think, and recorded all the plants and all the

1318
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:23,240
Speaker 4: stuff he saw. It was William Bartram, and he he

1319
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:25,960
Speaker 4: wrote a book called The Travels with William Bartram, which

1320
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 4: you should people should read like this is like and

1321
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:31,560
Speaker 4: that was that. That's Alabama. There's another one apple a

1322
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:36,080
Speaker 4: Chicola Forests where you go through the Bradwell Bay Wilderness,

1323
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 4: which's like the strangest likes. It's water up to your

1324
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:44,679
Speaker 4: waist for miles and miles. Should shone National Forests, first

1325
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 4: national forest in America, right with the Yellowstone Timberland Reserve,

1326
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 4: that very first natural forest. We do about a forty

1327
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 4: mile trip through that nice So that's where I've been

1328
01:20:57,479 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 4: man for all the last you know, three years really

1329
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 4: and it's it's like I said, I've been glued. You're glue.

1330
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:09,759
Speaker 4: You get to do the trips, but then you're glued

1331
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:11,640
Speaker 4: to your you really got to be glued.

1332
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:15,519
Speaker 2: To the You're you're living vicariously through your own words

1333
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 2: for a while there you're wishing you could be out

1334
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 2: there adventuring again, but you're just you gotta get it

1335
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 2: on the page.

1336
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 3: I'm definitely in that.

1337
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 2: I'm in that phase right now for the new project.

1338
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,760
Speaker 2: And uh, it takes some takes some discipline that's for sure.

1339
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:30,759
Speaker 3: It's not always the easiest.

1340
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:34,400
Speaker 4: Are there days where you don't get it?

1341
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:36,439
Speaker 3: Are there days?

1342
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1343
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 2: Sure, there are some days. I I've really tried to

1344
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 2: stick to a little bit. Every day has been my

1345
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 2: mantra this time around, because the first time around, I

1346
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 2: had a lot of days I couldn't do it because

1347
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 2: I couldn't do it quite right. And so my new

1348
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:52,960
Speaker 2: my new method this year, not this year, this project

1349
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 2: has been a little bit of progress every single day

1350
01:21:56,479 --> 01:21:58,680
Speaker 2: of the work week at least, and so that it's

1351
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 2: just kind of you're slowly chipping away at it, and

1352
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 2: it's always in the back of your mind, even when

1353
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 2: you're not the computer. You're in the shower, on a

1354
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,280
Speaker 2: walk or something, and an idea hits you. So that's

1355
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 2: that's been my approach this time, and so far, so good.

1356
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 2: But you ask me in five.

1357
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 3: More months and I'll tell you whether or not it's

1358
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:12,519
Speaker 3: worked or not.

1359
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:16,519
Speaker 4: Right for sure, Well, I just I mean, I'm very

1360
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:21,720
Speaker 4: impressed with your work, and to some extent, like I

1361
01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 4: was when I was talking to you just then, I'm

1362
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 4: listening because I mean, I've been doing this forever and

1363
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 4: I still don't know really, I have never gotten to

1364
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:33,600
Speaker 4: the point where I wake up at eight o'clock, I

1365
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 4: walk in the office at eight o'clock, and I produce

1366
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 4: words until twelve o'clock, and then I go out and

1367
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,360
Speaker 4: go fishing. Yeah, or take the kids doing that. I

1368
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 4: never I've never done that. At it's it's always been

1369
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 4: a struggle to figure out where it starts, how to

1370
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:53,120
Speaker 4: I don't know so, but it is a life we've chosen.

1371
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:54,160
Speaker 5: You know.

1372
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,799
Speaker 2: The best thing that has ever happened in my writing

1373
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 2: life might be some of the best advice we could

1374
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:02,840
Speaker 2: give anyone when it comes to trying to tackle some

1375
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 2: of these issues we're talking about, which has been that

1376
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:11,759
Speaker 2: I have given myself permission should just do a little something,

1377
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:14,719
Speaker 2: even if it's not very good, even if it's not perfect,

1378
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 2: even if it's not going to be the best book

1379
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:18,640
Speaker 2: in the world. This is not the best sentence, this

1380
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 2: is not the best paragraph. It's just a little something.

1381
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 2: But I did something, and I gave my self permission

1382
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:29,639
Speaker 2: to just do a little bit of something, even though

1383
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 2: it's not great. And by doing that, it gets the

1384
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 2: ball rolling. And if I can just give myself permission

1385
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:39,559
Speaker 2: to write a few shitty words and not feel bad

1386
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 2: about that it usually leads to me writing a bunch

1387
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 2: of okay words, which then maybe someday I can turn

1388
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: into some.

1389
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:47,559
Speaker 3: Page is worth of good words.

1390
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:49,640
Speaker 2: And I think that might be a little bit of

1391
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:51,920
Speaker 2: the trick to making a difference when it comes to

1392
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 2: stewarding our public lands and standing up for wild places.

1393
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 2: It's you know what, you can do a little something today.

1394
01:23:57,840 --> 01:23:59,479
Speaker 2: It might not fix it all, but you could sign

1395
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 2: that petition today or maybe next week. You know, you

1396
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:05,639
Speaker 2: could call your representative of your senator and yeah, that's

1397
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:07,639
Speaker 2: not going to fix it all. And maybe you don't

1398
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 2: come across super eloquently on the phone, maybe you're not

1399
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 2: the best speaker, whatever it is, But but do the

1400
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 2: little bit you can today, because all of this stuff,

1401
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,559
Speaker 2: little bit by little bit, one crappy paragraph at a time.

1402
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:22,880
Speaker 2: You write a book, or you stand up for your

1403
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:25,280
Speaker 2: public lands, or you save the damn world.

1404
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,519
Speaker 4: That is so, that is so you're get on, man.

1405
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:34,840
Speaker 4: I'm glad I know you. One thing, when when you

1406
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 4: finished that, I was thinking about the what the real

1407
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,600
Speaker 4: death the doom right is to think that if I

1408
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:47,600
Speaker 4: think about the book all of a sudden, and you

1409
01:24:47,680 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 4: think about like saving the public lands. Oh and or Daunte.

1410
01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:54,800
Speaker 4: Oh my lord, You're like, like, is there going to

1411
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:57,519
Speaker 4: be any fishing in twenty twenty five? You go, I

1412
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 4: don't know. To that is to do small, actionable, quantifiable

1413
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:08,280
Speaker 4: and deserrable things today and and do them while you're

1414
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:11,040
Speaker 4: thinking about it, and then if the rest of the

1415
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 4: day goes the hell you did that? Ye yeah, what's that?

1416
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 3: You had a win, You had.

1417
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 4: To win a small victory. But yeah, I think that's right.

1418
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 4: It's like and that's so much of our conservation world

1419
01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,479
Speaker 4: has gotten to be this like abstract thing. Oh no,

1420
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,720
Speaker 4: like the garbage gyre in the ocean or something. You go, ah, no,

1421
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 4: what am I gonna do? Well, the answer is you're

1422
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 4: not gonna do anything about that today. You know, maybe

1423
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 4: you you good? You go over to the tap and

1424
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:48,880
Speaker 4: drink a glass of water instead of buying a plastic bottle.

1425
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, do every little tiny thing we can is a

1426
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 2: starting point.

1427
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 3: It's the next step.

1428
01:25:55,720 --> 01:26:02,519
Speaker 7: It's it's progress because perfect perfect the attempt to reach

1429
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:06,280
Speaker 7: perfection leads to a lot of paralysis at least never starting,

1430
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 7: least never doing anything.

1431
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,680
Speaker 2: And uh right, yeah, we gotta fight that temptation. We

1432
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:12,639
Speaker 2: gotta we gotta.

1433
01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:16,520
Speaker 4: Don't you think there's a there's a terrible human tendency

1434
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 4: too to go like to go to the macrocosm immediately go, well,

1435
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 4: there nothing I can do about that, and that lets

1436
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 4: you off the hook, yep, and you just like go

1437
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:29,719
Speaker 4: grab the grab the coke and the funions and kick

1438
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 4: back and watch another YouTube. You know.

1439
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people that have fallen into that trap.

1440
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:40,799
Speaker 4: Myself. Yeah, I mean I kind of I work against

1441
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 4: that trap, like all the time I was. I remember

1442
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 4: back when uh I used to really I was into

1443
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:52,720
Speaker 4: jiu jitsu for like twenty years, you know, and still am.

1444
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:55,519
Speaker 4: But I'm I've aged out of like doing it too

1445
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 4: too hard on as hard as I want to. Uh.

1446
01:26:58,000 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 4: But people would come to class, you know, and they

1447
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:02,840
Speaker 4: would be all excited and they're go, I'm gonna like

1448
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 4: be a blue belt in three months. You know, I'm

1449
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:09,719
Speaker 4: gonna I'm gonna win the butte, you know. Uh intra

1450
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 4: murals like in like Christmas, and those are the people

1451
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:16,320
Speaker 4: who never came They never came back to class.

1452
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:21,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, And the and the people who go like, wow, man,

1453
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:25,720
Speaker 8: that's a really interesting move, show me that again, and

1454
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:27,760
Speaker 8: then and then they would go up the next night

1455
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 8: and the next night, you know.

1456
01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 4: Uh, and it was it was very much of what

1457
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 4: we're talking about. Yeah, the people who wanted to be

1458
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 4: great now were the ones who ended up not coming back.

1459
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's one small step you can take? What's one

1460
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,880
Speaker 2: How can you get one percent better tomorrow? How can

1461
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:50,679
Speaker 2: you make some small tangible difference this week?

1462
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 4: I think, Uh, have you got one that you could

1463
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:55,559
Speaker 4: think of right now, Like on the on the public

1464
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 4: lands thing. I think it would be to tell your

1465
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 4: friends about the Supreme Court decision this morning.

1466
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, I think so.

1467
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:08,600
Speaker 2: I think that passed along the fact that hey, this

1468
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:11,559
Speaker 2: is a thing that reared its ugly head again and

1469
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 2: we're fortunate that it got shot down. But hey, I

1470
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 2: think I think for me, the overwhelming takeaway from this

1471
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 2: conversation and from just kind of the moment is that

1472
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 2: it's time to re engage.

1473
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:25,360
Speaker 4: I think that.

1474
01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 2: There's been a little bit of sitting back on our

1475
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:30,599
Speaker 2: laurels the last handful of years. It kind of felt

1476
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 2: like we we you know, won the battle there for

1477
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 2: a moment, and I think it's time to to rally.

1478
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:41,400
Speaker 2: It's time to re engage, start to start really paying

1479
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 2: attention again, because uh, like you said, if we don't engage,

1480
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 2: if we don't stand up on this stuff, there's there's

1481
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 2: folks that have other incentives and other goals in mind

1482
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 2: that are very motivated and in the right position to

1483
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:55,400
Speaker 2: do so.

1484
01:28:56,040 --> 01:28:59,800
Speaker 4: They are very motivated and at the moment, if you

1485
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 4: don't don't challenge you, if you don't stand up for

1486
01:29:02,120 --> 01:29:06,320
Speaker 4: what you want, those people are definitely ascendant at the moment.

1487
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 4: I mean, like the right wing think tanks like Heritage

1488
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:14,719
Speaker 4: Foundation from the they have an ALEC American Legislatory Exchange

1489
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:20,879
Speaker 4: Council American Lands Council ALC. These people have been deeply

1490
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,639
Speaker 4: involved in the in the long term movement to take

1491
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 4: away the American public lands from the as long as

1492
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 4: I can my all my adult life. And these are

1493
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 4: think tanks that are mostly you know there they call

1494
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:40,799
Speaker 4: themselves conservative. It's not conservative to take away the American

1495
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 4: public lands, let me tell you that. Yeah, that's about

1496
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 4: as radical an idea divesting the people of their own

1497
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:52,160
Speaker 4: land as I've ever heard. But they those the planks

1498
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:57,360
Speaker 4: of these think tanks. I'm doing air quotes. They think

1499
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:00,400
Speaker 4: best when somebody's given them money to chair, you pick

1500
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:03,840
Speaker 4: information and prove something that they want, but that they

1501
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:07,799
Speaker 4: already want to get. But they are ascendant at the moment.

1502
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,200
Speaker 4: And it is it is. It is our job as

1503
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:13,920
Speaker 4: American citizens and people who know what is at stake

1504
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:21,639
Speaker 4: to say no to the worst impulses. And even if

1505
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 4: we voted for these folks, especially if people say no

1506
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 4: to the especially if we vote right, yeah, I mean,

1507
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:31,160
Speaker 4: you didn't vote to divest yourself of the of your

1508
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:32,000
Speaker 4: hunting ground.

1509
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 2: And I think that that makes us that much more

1510
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:40,960
Speaker 2: influential and powerful in our ability to influence change, because

1511
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:42,679
Speaker 2: we can call these folks up and say, hey, buddy,

1512
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 2: I voted for you, I'm voting for you. I support this, this,

1513
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 2: and this, but on this one, you got it wrong.

1514
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 2: And if you want my support the next time around,

1515
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 2: or for your buddy who's running the next time or

1516
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you gotta change this. I'm on your team.

1517
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:58,720
Speaker 2: We're on your team. We want to support you. But

1518
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 2: this is a deal, and we have the ear of

1519
01:31:02,200 --> 01:31:04,920
Speaker 2: these people. They might not listen at all to the

1520
01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 2: left side of the aisle, but they will listen to us,

1521
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:11,240
Speaker 2: So we have a we have a huge opportunity there.

1522
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:14,479
Speaker 4: I think that's true. You gotta be careful that they're

1523
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:20,640
Speaker 4: they're taking us for granted at this moment, and the

1524
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:25,600
Speaker 4: elections and stuff have kind of given people, the politicians

1525
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 4: a complacent view of of of what will stand for. Really.

1526
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 4: I mean they that that privatizing the public lands deal

1527
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 4: was in the Republican platform in twenty sixteen.

1528
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 3: Yep, I remember, and.

1529
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 4: You know, everybody I know still voted, and I don't

1530
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:49,000
Speaker 4: know what they thought, right, Like you know Ryan Sinky

1531
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:52,160
Speaker 4: in Montwna, I actually did not support that.

1532
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 3: Yep.

1533
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 4: Whatever you think of representatives thinking, he didn't support that,

1534
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:00,960
Speaker 4: and and that was really good, I thought, And I

1535
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:05,160
Speaker 4: thought that was courageous of him to make that stand. Yeah,

1536
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 4: So I think let's have more of that.

1537
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's the rally and cry I

1538
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:14,280
Speaker 2: think for us leaving here today is get ready to

1539
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:17,599
Speaker 2: get ready to re engage, get ready to stand up,

1540
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 2: get ready to be that squeaky wheel and uh not

1541
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:27,400
Speaker 2: be complacent. So hell, I don't know when it will be,

1542
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 2: but when whenever your book comes out next year, you

1543
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:33,120
Speaker 2: have a guaranteed appointment here on the wire Hunt podcast

1544
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:35,639
Speaker 2: to talk all about your book. I'll be recommending every

1545
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:37,559
Speaker 2: one of our listeners to pick up a copy. I

1546
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 2: can't wait to read it myself. And uh, I thank

1547
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:43,880
Speaker 2: you for for everything you've shared with us here today

1548
01:32:44,479 --> 01:32:48,200
Speaker 2: and all the all the wisdom and inspiration over the years.

1549
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:48,600
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1550
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:51,559
Speaker 4: Hell it's a great, great time. Man. I've told you

1551
01:32:51,640 --> 01:32:56,559
Speaker 4: I was. I feel like you're the voice of your

1552
01:32:57,080 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 4: particular generation at this moment on this subject, and you're

1553
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 4: coming straight out of the hunting world, which is you

1554
01:33:06,600 --> 01:33:10,640
Speaker 4: couldn't have a stronger base. Yeah, I mean, hunter controvationist

1555
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:13,640
Speaker 4: is a large part of why we have what we have.

1556
01:33:14,200 --> 01:33:16,599
Speaker 3: We got a hell of a legacy that we had

1557
01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:17,080
Speaker 3: to hold up.

1558
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:26,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, well finding dude, thank you hell yeah.

1559
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:25,320
Speaker 3: And that's going to do it for us today.

1560
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:28,600
Speaker 2: Appreciate you joining me here on the Wired to Hunt podcast.

1561
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:31,480
Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in here as hell and I discussed

1562
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,439
Speaker 2: what is the beginning I think of an important set

1563
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 2: of conversations that we are going to be continuing this

1564
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 2: year and over the next handful of years, because we

1565
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:43,680
Speaker 2: are going to have some work to do, and I

1566
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 2: believe and I trust that you're going to be joining

1567
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:48,679
Speaker 2: me in doing that work. So thanks for being here.

1568
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 2: Thanks for checking out that Wild Country. If you have

1569
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:53,679
Speaker 2: not already read that book that I wrote a handful

1570
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 2: of years ago.

1571
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:55,920
Speaker 3: It is the perfect way to get you.

1572
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:58,280
Speaker 2: Up to speed on what's happening now and what we

1573
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 2: might need to be preparing for in the future. So

1574
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:03,719
Speaker 2: thank you, appreciate you being a part of this community,

1575
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 2: and until next time, stay Wired to Hunt.