WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 77 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.680 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.520 there's got to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:28.040 you can make your own decisions. A welcome back to 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:33.880 it could happen here a podcast about world stuff fallen apart, 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.400 putting it back together, all that good stuff. Today we're 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.120 actually covering something that's at the intersection of all of that, 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.080 both how fucked up things are and the attempt to 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:50.000 make them more just, more equitable, less nightmarish. We're talking 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:55.320 about war crimes, the International Criminal Court, and most specifically 0:00:55.640 --> 0:01:00.320 the warrant that was just issued for Vladimir Putin's rest, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:04.400 which is something you've probably heard about on the internet. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.640 People have various takes on this in order to kind 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.319 of talk about what's actually been done, what it actually means, 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.160 and sort of the history of attempts to hold the 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.840 leaders of nations to account for war crimes. I want 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.720 to talk to Nick Waters. Nick, Welcome to the show. Hi, Nick, 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.400 You and I have some connections outside of this. First off, 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.080 you're here on the show today because you work in 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:34.560 an investigatory investigative capacity. Geez, can you tell that I'm 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.559 not used to waking up this early for Bellingcat where 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.080 we both work together. Your focus has been primarily on 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:46.560 war crimes. You've been covering Ukraine lately, but you have 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.680 a pretty wide purview and a pretty wide base of experience, 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:55.360 including crimes in Libya, and yeah, I wanted to talk 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.760 to you a little bit. First off, welcome to the show. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.560 Thanks very much, mate. In of behind the Bostons. I 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:05.960 have the largest knife I could find in this place 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.880 next to me. It's not quite machete, but yeah, I 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:10.520 mean I thought I should have one just in case. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:15.360 That's that's good I've got um Well, yeah, I actually 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.080 am more or less knifeless here. I do have a 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:24.040 nine millimeter in the desk, but somewhat more limited span 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:28.720 of uses. Um now, Nick, you and I. You and 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.079 I have shared one of the strongest bonds that two 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.960 men can share, which is eating some really delicious a repas. 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:39.560 But um we we we also share an interest in 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:45.320 the somewhat difficult history of attempts from our species to 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.519 kind of grapple with the nature of war crimes, of 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.799 acts of genocide and hold people to account for them. Um. 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.640 I kind of think before we get into what's happened 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.360 with Putin, we should talk about what the ICC is 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.880 and what its history comes from, because this it actually 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.600 dates back a little over a hundred years attempts to 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.040 make the ICC. I think nineteen nineteen was the first 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.040 convention in which a number of European nations were like, boy, 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.160 we should really have some sort of court put together 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.960 to attempt to hold leaders and individuals to account for 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.760 committing war crimes. Yeah. I'm not that familiar with the 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.160 kind of the very long history of attempts at international justice. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.840 Suffice to say that so far hasn't worked out quite 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.960 how I think everyone expects it to. That that is 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:37.520 the tl DR, the international justice good idea hasn't happened 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:42.720 yet pretty much. Yeah, I mean there's been lots of yeah, 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.440 lots of agreements obviously, kind of everyone knows Geneva Convention, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.680 et cetera. Lots of other agreements about how not to 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.680 kill people in the most horrific way as possible in war, 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.120 and you know, as part of that like room statue 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.600 which created the ICC. Yeah, it was green in nineteen 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.640 ninety eight. So yeah, it's been kind of like one 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.240 hundred years or sort of efforts before the ICC actually 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.080 got here. Yeah, auld probably also I need to say, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.440 like before we kind of get going anything. I'm not 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.800 a lawyer, which is super important because I know all 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.480 the lawyers out there will be like angry about it. 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:24.360 So Nick, I want to talk about what in particular 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:29.640 this decision means, because there's bit like obviously, I think 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.040 it's fair to say in the immediate term, probably nothing 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:40.080 like it's not like the International War and agents are 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.000 going to come out and arrest Vladimir in the Kremlin 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.679 or in his mansion that you see fake photoshopped images 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:52.800 of on Twitter all the time. But yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.080 so in kind of like day to day stuff, Yeah, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.080 it doesn't have that much an effect. So Russia doesn't 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.159 recognize the jury resdiction of the ICC. So it's not like, 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.480 you know, the FSB are going to storm into the 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.800 Kremlin and aar Resputin and like export him to the 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:10.960 Hague in a you know, different matter bag or something 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:15.200 that's that's not going to happen, um. But in other 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.200 ways it's it's a big deal in other ways. Um. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.120 And also it's for me, like really the biggest thing 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.560 about this is that it's an indicator about how seriously 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:31.839 the ICC is taking taking this war. International justice moves 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.440 so slowly, you know, we're talking like you know, mentioned 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.680 in decades, so to having a restaurants out, yeah, in 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.520 one year is like a really big deal for the 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.200 ICEC at least. Yeah. And this is because if I'm 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:50.440 an that mistake in the both Putin and the woman, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:52.440 because he's not the only one, by the way, that's 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:57.600 been been charged by the the ICC. UM. There's also 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.680 I'm gonna attempt to get her name right, Maria Lvova Belova, 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.960 who is the Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia. And 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.200 part of the reason why this has happened so rapidly 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.320 is that both Putin and Maria have made pretty unequivocal 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.599 statements about the removal of Ukrainian children from their families, 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.560 forced deportation into Russia, and adoption by Russian families, which 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.480 is that is a war crime, that is an act 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:32.120 of genocide. Yeah, so I think the actual crime is 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.000 on lawful deportation, or the actual citation is on n 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:39.679 awful deportation of Ukrainian children, which yes, could be arguably 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.960 and again at this point emphasized to lawyer, Yeah, I 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.720 think can feed into the kind of accusations of genocide. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.640 And so it's a pretty big charge to level against 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.160 Putin and this commissioner this early on. I think it's 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.360 also like one of the easier ones as well, Like 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.159 in the view of the Russian States, this is a 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.840 you know, wonderful thing they're doing. They are essentially kind 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.640 of rescuing these children from and you can't see if 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.080 I'm doing air quotes right now, like Kinian Nazis educating 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.160 them and bring them up as Russian children, and you know, 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:19.000 they're they're taking these children away from their culture, their families, 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.520 and their country to basically erase who they are, which 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.760 plays a quite a big part in the accusation that's 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.880 could be part of a act of GENOCIDEA yeah, And 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.000 it's it's interesting to me Levova Belova has kind of 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.680 described this like her justification of this, and I think 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.520 the Russian states justification of this is both that, yeah, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.520 the Ukrainians Nazis, and also I've I've heard claims from 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.040 her that like, well, we're removing children from a dangerous 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.600 war zone, which you know, that begs the question why 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.200 is it a dangerous war zone right now? Among other things. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.000 But one of the things that's interesting to me is 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.960 that Levova Belova is not just part of the state 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.840 apparatus of carrying out this act, but has also thanked 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.720 Putin publicly for making it possible for her to adopt 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.920 a child from dun Bass, which is one of the 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.960 Russian occupied parts of Ukraine. So, yeah, it is it 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.880 is kind of interesting the stuff that had to fall 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.440 into place for this to be able to happen in 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.640 such an expeditious manner. Yeah, I think it helps that 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.320 they view all the Russian state views this act is 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.720 something that is beneficial and so they want to say, hey, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.600 look we're rescuing these children. And you can see kind 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:35.800 of similar You've seen similar vibes with like basically stealing 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:42.559 Ukrainian cultural heritage from museums and stuff like that, they 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.720 or the Russian state believes, you know, that they are 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.520 doing the right thing, like we are very proud that 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:50.720 we have taken these objects away and we are saving 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:55.840 them again from Ukrainian Nazis. And so they make public 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.199 announcements about it, they say, yeah, we're doing the thing. 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.040 It's awesome, isn't it. Yeah, And so the result is 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.880 quite a lot of evidence that they're doing these pretty 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.360 bad things. And so yeah, there's there's quite lot of 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.400 evidence there. There are statements from his Commissioner for Children 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.959 from Peton, it's pretty clear what's happening. So it's quite 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.520 a I think it's quite an interesting charge to bring. Yeah, 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.040 and we're just so people are aware of the scale. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.640 President Zelinsky, if Ukraine at least has says that his 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:29.240 country has recorded about sixteen thousand cases of forcible deportations 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.439 of children. That's not like a final number, just like 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.360 the death talies and whatnot or not final numbers, but 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:37.959 that's that is the Ukrainian state's estimate of how many 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.120 kids have been taken away, which is a I mean, 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.240 that's a pretty staggering number. I mean, yeah, that's a 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.000 huge number of children. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's an 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.160 absolutely huge number of children. And then you have to 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.160 account you know that it's not just a children, they're 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.440 the victims it's also their families who are the victims. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.800 So we're talking about like a knock on effect with 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.079 you know, tens of thousands of people who've been affected 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.960 by these arcs. It's not more than that, Yeah, I 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:06.160 think probably, I mean, sixteen thousand children are probably higher 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.800 than the tens of thousands in terms of family members 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.719 and whatnot who are impacted by this. In terms of 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.480 what technically this means for Putin, there's about there's I 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.800 think one hundred and twenty signature signatory nations to the 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:26.199 Rome Statute, and within those countries, theoretically, if if Putin 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.600 or if Maria were to travel there, they would theoretically 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.079 be arrested if they were to set foot in one 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:37.200 of those signatory nations. Yes, so theoretic theoretically doing a 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:42.160 lot of walking there, Yeah, doing a lot of heavy lifting. Okay, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.640 So yeah, in theory, if Putin, trup's any of these 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.480 nations who should be arrested. But some of the nations 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:52.640 don't recognize or believe that heads of states are basically immune, 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.200 and I imagine there will be several of those signatories 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.920 who will likely refuse to extradote Putin. Should mister Putin 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:04.160 visit them and this has actually happened before, so I 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:10.000 think it was South Africa refused to extradite a former 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:11.160 head of states. I think it was a leader of 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.839 South suit done. But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't it 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:18.679 Elmarba Sheer, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I believe 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.839 it was Elmarbasheer. Yeah. So he actually travel around and 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:29.160 was not arrested and extradited as theoretically should have been. However, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.400 it still gives mister Putin and especially security details some 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.840 headaches because they're still going to have to check with 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.600 these states when they go and visit you know, hey, 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.880 are you going to like arrest him, which is not 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.240 like a cool usually have to ask, and then if 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.560 they were planning to arrest him, you know, they might 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.040 not tell them that they're planning to arrest them. So 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:54.839 there's always going to be well at the moment, there's 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.959 still like a cost applied to mister Putin in terms 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.640 of traveling to these countries that would you know, you 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.800 might still like considered the ic jurisdiction of the heads 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:08.319 of states to be lacking. Um, yeah, yeah, So it's 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.400 still there's still like some some cost deployed. Though if 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.080 I'm remembering correctly, there have been three sitting heads of 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.240 state that have faced ICC charges in office. We talked 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:23.120 about Omar Bashir, Um, Momar Kadafi uh and now Putin 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:27.079 is number three. UM, which is, if we're if we're 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.559 looking at the history of the last you know, I mean, 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.400 just since the establishment of the ICC, fewer than the 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.560 number of world leaders who have been involved allegedly in 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:40.679 uh uh crimes against humanity, I think fair to say um, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.280 Which brings us to the question of, like, what does 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:50.280 it mean to be a signatory UM to Rome, to 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.720 the ICC, what does it mean to actually be bound 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.640 by any of these rules? Because both Russia and the 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.840 United States, it was looking at a map earlier that 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.959 kind of lists out every countries relationship to the ICC, 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.840 in both Russia and the United States are in the 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.800 position of like having endorsed aspects of the ICC and 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:14.040 then not signed on right, yeah, yeah, yeah, again, not 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.160 not that familiar with how the ICC works in practice, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:20.320 but basically, if you sign up to the ICC, you 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.199 have to agree to enforce their judgments, you know, including 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.080 a restaurants, which again is something like the US and 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.240 US and Russia haven't done the idea that basically the 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.080 ICC market is itself as markets, itself basically thinks of 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.960 itself as a court of last resort. So you know, 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.439 they're not going to be out there prosecuting individual sold 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.280 or fair unlikely to be prosecuting like individual soldiers who've 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.600 like say executed like temprince and war in a ditch. 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.760 That's something that is unlikely that the ICC is going 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.040 to prosecute. They are going for, you know, high in commanders, 0:13:55.080 --> 0:14:00.120 people who've carried out like extremely civilar acts yea, and 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.240 especially in cases where like a state is not able 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:10.920 to carry out such prosecution. So for example, take the UK, 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:20.280 so UK has in theory conducted investigations into allegations of 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.480 war crimes in a rock, conducted by its troops. That 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.920 was I had so the Iraq Historic Allegations Team. It 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.760 was pretty shambolic. It is extremely shambolic. It was a 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:37.440 really bad investigation. The not just for the victims who 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.800 basically no one really ever got justice from it, Very 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:43.600 very few people ever got justice from it, but also 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.479 the people who are actually accused were sometimes like investigated 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.960 multiple multiple times. But because the UK made some kind 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.600 of effort to investigate it, even if it was absolutely shambolic. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.360 It's unlikely that the ICC has ever actually going to 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.720 investigate UK soldiers for walk in Rock, because in theory 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:03.920 that should be the UK carrying out their investigation, and 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.280 in theory they have carried out their investigation. It's completely 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.760 in other quotes. But yeah, that's that's the justification. That's 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:16.600 incredibly interesting to me because it does seem like on 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.320 one hand, I can see the logic, and this is 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.920 part of why, like the US, the United States, my 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.400 country's justification for why we are not a signatory is 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:29.160 that the Constitution does not allow us to agree to 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.760 have our citizens tried for crimes that they are being 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.440 tried for in the United States by an international court 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:42.600 something along those lines. And I can understand the idea that, like, well, 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.720 national sovereignty, like, the only way we're going to get 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.560 anyone to agree to let this thing exist in abide 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.840 by any aspect of its rulings is if it does 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.840 not overly interview with their national sovereignty and to including 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:59.280 their ability to prosecute their own soldiers for war crimes. 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:04.200 On the other hand, the state of affairs, as you've 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.120 just related. The state of affairs is inadequate, right, Like 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.520 that is, the system that has been developed is not 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.720 adequate to to trying or achieving justice in a case 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.920 like the Iraq War, in which there were a lot 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.320 of crimes committed that people have not been punished for. 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.120 And I I mean, obviously you have to kind of 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.480 marry that to the fact that the attempt to do 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.080 something at all in this way is extremely new. As 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.840 we've said, like there are we have, like most of 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.440 the people who work on my show are older than 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.040 the ICC, and so that's that's still an achievement. I 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.040 don't know, I'm wondering kind of like what you see 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.680 is like the positive future for attempts to hold individuals 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.080 and nations to account here, Like is that is it 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.760 continuing to grind like this or do you see kind 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.480 of a more positive opening coming forward as a result 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.080 of particularly the attention that all of these these war 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.560 crimes in Ukraine have gotten. I mean, I think it 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.840 can need to grind. When you look at the history 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.119 of atrocities that have taken place in conflict over the 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.280 last you know, like twenty years, it's just absolutely huge. Yea, 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.960 you know, there's like atrocity upon atrocity upon atrocity, and 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.240 the ICC you can only investigate a tiny number of those. 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:20.200 The reality is that only a tiny fraction of those 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.280 atrocities will ever actually be investigated in victims faced justice. 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.960 That is the reality of the situation. The ICC does, 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.600 you know, carry out investigations and does carry out prosecutions, 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.600 but again we're talking like the most grave crimes possible, 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.480 and usually you know, really senior people who often are 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.440 able to evade those kind of prosecutions. I think there's 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.080 a better chance of some kind of justice at like 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:54.040 a national level with universal jurisdiction. So recently, universe or 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.960 jurisdiction was used in Germany to prosecute two Syrian officers 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.840 who basically a torture against the Syrians during during the revolution, 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.640 and those those two syranofsicers have basically fled to fled 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.040 to Germany and related prosecuted that. And so it's not 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:15.560 just the ICEC, it's also universe jurisdiction. It is you know, trubunals, 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.040 there's other stuff there. But again, like this is only 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.840 a tiny fraction of everything that gets investigated. And I've 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.240 been reading going through several different books about Joseph Mengela 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.399 most recently and including some accounts from um. You know 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.159 Jewish doctors who are enslaved and who are forced to 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.399 work at Auschwitz. And I've been thinking a lot about 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.119 the Nate like the different kinds of war crimes. Right, 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.119 you have a group of Australian or US or British 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.200 soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq who commit a massacre, kill 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.840 a number of civilians, and that is a war crime. 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.359 But there's also the kinds of war crime that is 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.640 a war crime that is the result of individuals taking 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:04.680 individual actions right as opposed to the actions of a state, 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:10.000 and the actions that are a result of years worth 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.679 of directed cultural efforts, which I think is part a 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.399 way to look at what the Russian state's attitude towards 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.080 Ukrainians are and a lot of the crimes that have 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.879 been committed over there. The denial of the existence of 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.560 Ukrainians as a people is deeper and more complex than 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.160 the kind of crime that a soldier might commit in 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.119 a moment of passion, and fundamentally different from that. And 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.400 it's one of those things. If you like, for example, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.560 to go back to Mangola, if you're trying to judge 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.840 Mangola for his crimes, you have to judge the entire 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.800 German medical establishment, which joined the Nazi Party in higher 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.240 numbers than any other group in the country, and which 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.560 was directly implicated in how Auschwitz functioned and why it 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.880 worked the way it did. And there's realistically, like most 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.439 of the doctors Mangela, there were attempts to punish him. 0:19:55.440 --> 0:20:00.720 Obviously he escaped, but the doctors who edge jucated him, 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.840 who taught him, who who inculcated him in the attitudes 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.680 that were directly responsible for the crimes that he committed, 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.480 were never punished. And legally, I don't know how you 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.560 would punish people for that. How do you punish someone 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.840 for promuligating ideas like the ideas that Ukrainians are not 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:18.800 a people, which leads to a lot of the violence 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:20.879 that you're seeing over there, Like, how do you like, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.159 there's not, realistically, in at least in my understanding of 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:25.960 the law, a way to punish that. But it is 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.600 a factor in these crimes. Yeah, the creation of a 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.239 culture absolutely is and a key Like a really good 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.399 example of this is the radio station Rwanda, Yes who 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.960 you know broadcast basically effectively caused to genocide. And I 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.359 think they were actually ended up being prosecuted by the ICC. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.600 I think actually as well. I believe, Yeah, I believe 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.920 there were at least attempts. Yeah, the International Criminal Tribunal 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.080 for Rwanda. Yeah, I mean, it's one thing when you're 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.479 talking about like direct incitements to violence. It's another one 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.159 you're talking about like kind of the stuff that Dugan 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.400 is responsible for, which is absolutely a factor, the kind 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.679 of id the ideas that he was one of the 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.320 people who was kind of promuligated under the direction of 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.600 Putin and others in the Russian state are like a 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.320 factor in the behavior that we've seen over there. But 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.199 it also is harder to kind of qualify it as 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.520 a direct call for war crimes in some cases, although 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:25.240 some of the stuff Dugan has said, I think you 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.719 could you could argue is certainly like a direct call 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.560 to violence. Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, well, it's really 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.840 difficult to kind of get that to raise up to 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:38.480 the threshold of prosecution. It's really difficult thing to do, 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.920 especially if you are external to the culture that is 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.040 or to the organization that is creating that internal culture. 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.119 And I'm like very familiar with this kind of stuff 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.080 having for those of you if you listened to from 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.240 one will be familiar. I was an army officer, so 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.560 like quite a big part of my job was making 0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:02.959 sure that like the culture within my cartoon was a beneficial, 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.280 good culture in which the blokes would knock go off 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:11.719 and like murder people. And you read about stories like 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.359 my Lie or there's a really good example for this 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:20.199 book called Black Hearts, this American plating in Iraq, and 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.640 it's really clear where basically institutional culture has completely failed 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:28.760 or has created a culture in which basically committing atrocities 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:34.119 or murder is either you know, mildly ignored or actively encouraged. 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:36.920 And yeah, that that culture is something that is really 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.280 difficult to police because it really has to come from 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.840 within the institution itself, you know, unless you just completely 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.640 destroy the institution itself, which is also another option, which 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:49.680 is what the Canadians did with their Airborne Regiment after 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:55.320 some of their guys in Somalia like roasted some poor 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.080 guy alive on a fire. Jesus, the Canadians basically just 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:01.680 disbanded the entire album regiment. They basically said, like the 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:05.720 culture in this regiment is not us. It's too far gone. Basically, 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.440 we're going to dispand this entire regiment, which is what 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:10.360 they did, so you can't do that too. It's quite 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:12.679 a difficult thing to do, kind of. The last thing 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.920 I wanted to go over is the uh, the most 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.840 recent the response of the Russian state to these warrants. 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:22.800 One of them has been they've announced that they are 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:28.080 in carrying out an investigation into the ICC, which is it, 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:34.520 you know, um, I'm sure as meaningful as the sentence 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:38.359 I just said. And I the other thing that they've 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:43.160 done is sort of threatened to launch a hypersonic warhead 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:48.600 at the Hague, which I mean, like, it's not he 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:51.960 does have a lot of missiles, so it's you can't 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.240 like completely disregard a threat from a nuclear armed nation 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.680 to launch missiles at the Hague. But it's also just 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:04.360 you know, threats like these are not completely and in fact, 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.159 there's a provision in um what is it called. Let 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:10.040 me let me double check on the name here. I'm 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.359 so bad at remembering the names of laws. UM, the 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:16.199 American Service Members Protection Act that does theoretically allow the 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:19.880 use of military force by the US if American citizens 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:24.840 are extradited. Um, so like this is this is like 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:28.080 a much cruder version of that, like if you arrest us, 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:33.160 will Well will nuke they. But it does like it's 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:35.920 one of those things we're laughing about it. But if 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:37.800 you if you were to go back ten years and 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.360 imagine that threat being leveled, like even by Putin, it 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:45.760 would seem like farcical. Um, I guess it is farcical, 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:53.680 But we're here. Yeah, it's it's it's completely insane, isn't it. Yeah, 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:55.880 I mean, like how do you respond to that? Like right, 0:24:55.960 --> 0:25:03.720 like I'm gonna I'm gonna hypersonic They the Hague response, 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.439 it's just like, yeah, it's mad. Like when if you 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:12.320 go to the Hague, like the ICEC, you know you'll 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:14.320 have like the security guards sat there with their little 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:16.480 kind of nine mill pistol and they're kind of buzzing 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.439 through that kind of stuff, and like the idea of 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:21.239 them kind of you know, trying to fight off like 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:24.760 a delta force assault on the ICEC in the case 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:28.160 where like in a recond soldier there is like it's farcical, 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:30.520 but then the idea that they could do anything because 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.439 like a hypersonic missile is like thirty seconds away from 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:38.480 like obliterating the entire You gotta really, you gotta really 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:46.480 leave the missile. I mean, I mean, the only kind 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:49.439 of benefit I suppose is that like the ICEC is 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:53.040 on the outskirts of the Hague, so they would irradiate 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:55.520 actually quite a bit of a residential area and then 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.560 a lot of sand dunes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:01.520 one of the appside is that if Russia does nuke 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:05.119 the Hague, we will have deeper concerns than what to 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.560 do about international criminal law and the wake of that, 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:12.159 including taking sufficient iodine pills, which I'm not by I mean, 0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:15.520 people everyone gets is antsy about enough today. I don't 0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:17.959 think this is like a realistic threat. I don't think 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:20.400 it's likely that the Russian state is going to nuke 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:23.800 the ICC. Unfortunately. Part of why it's unlikely is that 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:28.280 it's unlikely that Putin is going to face direct justice 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:31.399 for his actions unless he is somehow overthrown right like 0:26:31.480 --> 0:26:34.280 that is realistically, the only case by which he winds 0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:36.240 up in front of the ICC is if he is 0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:38.760 forced out of power. Yeah, I mean, like when I 0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:40.760 when this you know, news first broke. There are some 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:42.280 people who are saying, hey, is this a big deal, 0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:47.160 little like will never you know, people mc justice, and like, yeah, 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:50.800 he might, he probably won't, but on the off chance, 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:54.040 it's always good to have that there. You know, I 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:59.000 went Slobadamnossovich uh, you know, step down was president president 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:01.760 of Serbia. You know, there was I think there was 0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:04.400 a law which meant that he couldn't actually be extracted 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:06.520 to the icc So everyone said the same thing, you know, 0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:08.880 he's never going to face justice, and then he ended 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:14.200 up at the ICCA. And if there is some kind 0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:19.080 of cool or something, you know, not now, maybe in 0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:22.480 the year's time, two years time, fifteen years time. You know, 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:27.399 Putin is a very valuable bargaining chip, and being able 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:30.800 to sent him to the Hague would be an extremely 0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:35.280 powerful message of hey, guys, we're entering a new era 0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:38.040 like Russia. The Russian state doesn't want to be associated 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:41.680 with what happened under Putin's rule. He go have mister 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:46.320 Putin put him on trial, and you know, he becomes 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:50.040 like quite an important bargaining chip, and so yeah, the 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:52.240 chance of it happening is like pretty small, but it's 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.040 still there. It's still worth doing this and that's I 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.560 think where I land is. I've just been again reading 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.240 about In this winter of nineteen forty four, there was 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:05.439 a rebellion in Auschwitz by a number of members of 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:09.080 the Sonder Commando, which was a group of prisoners who 0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:12.199 were tasked with the actual like job of making the 0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:14.560 camp function. And these guys rebelled, they blew up a 0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:17.119 bunch of stuff. And the whole attempt, this whole like 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:19.800 attack that cost hundreds of them their lives, was in 0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:21.760 the hope that one of them would get out and 0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:24.600 tell the story of what had been happening inside. And 0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:27.960 when you think about it that way, what historically, and 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.359 not just going back to the Holocaust, but the entire 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:35.879 long history of war like human war crimes which go 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:39.680 back as far as war. The desire of victims to 0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:43.440 have someone be aware of what has happened to them, 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:47.440 I think makes this a positive move in the middle 0:28:47.480 --> 0:28:50.400 of an incredibly dark chapter in human history and an 0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:54.000 incredibly awful war. The fact that this is happening at all, 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:58.800 as flawed, as imperfect as the whole and it's you know, 0:28:58.920 --> 0:29:02.840 people keep bringing up things like the inequities of the 0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:06.560 prosecution of like the United States and Israel for a 0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:09.560 number of different acts of their states and militaries. But like, 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:11.840 even given all that, the fact that this is happening 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:18.360 at all is I think meaningful. I do think it matters. 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.560 It's definitely a meaningful Like it's very much like a 0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:24.040 statement of intent from the ICC and especially from the 0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:27.080 new prosecutor, the ICC cream Con who came in last 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:30.280 year and he's kind of like, as far as I 0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:34.200 can tell, come in and shaking a few cages, and 0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:36.800 it's a very clear statement of intent from both himself 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:39.360 and from the court as well. Yeah, well, I think 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:41.280 that's as good a note as any to end on. Nick, 0:29:41.440 --> 0:29:45.160 Do you want to direct anybody towards um place they 0:29:45.240 --> 0:29:47.920 can can donate or something they can or a place 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:51.080 they can go to read up more on this series 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:54.640 other issues of international criminal justice. I mean, yeah, I'd 0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:57.120 direct people to to Bell and catocom, which is who 0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:01.160 I work for my twitters and non school Waters eighty nine. 0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:05.480 I don't really go on Twitter that much anymore. Something 0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:10.640 happened there, I don't know men, Yeah, but I place 0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:14.160 the occasion every so often. But yeah, felling out the 0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:18.120 con would be you wor'd recommend that's where like our 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:22.640 work is anyway. Yeah, well, Nick Waters, thank you so 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:27.200 much for coming on, for lending your expertise here. That's 0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:28.560 going to do it for us here, and it could 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:32.240 happen here. Sorry for using the word here so many times. 0:30:32.840 --> 0:30:51.360 Have a lovely day, everybody. Hey everyone, this is it 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:56.000 could happen here a podcast about things falling apart sometimes 0:30:56.000 --> 0:30:58.880 about putting things back together. This is one of the 0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:03.640 former episodes because we are recording this in the immediate wake, 0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:06.960 within a couple of hours of America's the United States 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:11.720 of America's most recent mass shooting in Tennessee at a 0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:17.680 Christian school called Covenant. You know, obviously there are way 0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:19.800 too many mass shootings in the United States for us 0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:22.280 to cover each one. We are talking about this now 0:31:22.320 --> 0:31:24.920 in a timely manner because there's a bunch of very 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:31.040 specific disinformation coming out about it, and particularly disinformation that 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:34.280 is part of the broader targeting by the right wing 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:37.440 of transgender people. So I'm gonna for the first part 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:39.600 of this, I'm going to turn things over to Garrison, 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:43.320 who has been doing specific research on the shooter and 0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:48.360 what we can actually verify at this moment about their identity. Upfront, 0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:51.320 I'll say that the police have identified this person as 0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:56.080 Audrey Hale twenty eight of Nashville NBC News notes quote 0:31:56.080 --> 0:32:00.440 who said she identifies as transgender. Again, this is not 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:02.360 quite right. We'll talk about it. But the right wing 0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:05.000 is obviously running with the idea that this is a 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:09.080 transgender shooter and part of a trans a series. They 0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:13.000 will argue of transgender attacks on Christians. We're going to 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.280 talk about the right wing sort of analysis of this later, 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:18.720 but first I'm gonna again push to Garrison, who will 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:21.560 talk about what we actually can verify about this person 0:32:21.600 --> 0:32:25.760 and about this shooting at this point. Yeah, just as 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:28.400 a note here, throughout this episode, there will be some 0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:31.200 what is probably miss gendering because we're going to be 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:34.560 quoting from a lot of other people's statements, and also 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:36.800 there will be a mentions of like a few slurs 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:40.640 against trans people, just because we are quoting from whole 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:43.440 a whole bunch of stuff, and some of the details 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:47.400 regarding the gender of the person in question is relatively 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:50.720 unknown at the time. So just as a heads up, Okay, 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.000 So yeah, I'm gonna just gonna go over a few 0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:57.920 things regarding what we know happened, What the what the 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:00.360 school was, because I think that kind of that might 0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:03.120 play into it, but that will kind of veer on speculation. 0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:04.680 So we're just going to limit it towards what we 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:10.600 actually know and then attempt to avoid speculation on this epimosphere. Yes, so, 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:13.640 someone caring multi fire arms entered a private Christian school 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:16.480 in Nashville this Monday morning and shot and killed three 0:33:16.560 --> 0:33:19.320 nine year old students and three adult staff members in 0:33:19.360 --> 0:33:24.120 their sixties, including the head of the school, doctor Katherine Khans. 0:33:24.960 --> 0:33:27.200 Police initially claimed the shooter was a teenager, but minutes 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:30.160 later changed course and described them as a twenty eight 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:33.400 year old woman from Nashville. It was then reported pretty 0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:36.160 quickly in NBC News that the shooter was identified as 0:33:36.200 --> 0:33:39.240 Audrey Hale, twenty eight, of Nashville, and the police chief 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:42.920 said she identifies as transgender. NBC has another article out 0:33:42.920 --> 0:33:45.720 there that says Audrey Haile, twenty eight, who police say 0:33:46.000 --> 0:33:49.880 was a transgender woman, quote unquote. So we will get 0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:53.040 into that here in a sec But the shooter entered 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:55.760 the Covenant School via a side door, according to the 0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:59.320 Metro Nashville Police spokesperson Don Aaron, and was armed with 0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:03.040 at least two quote unquote assault style rifles and a 0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:07.600 handgun unquote. It looks like it's an ar rifle and 0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:11.000 an air pistol and then also a handgun. Nashville Police 0:34:11.080 --> 0:34:14.120 Chief John Drake has said, quote at one point she 0:34:14.280 --> 0:34:17.080 was a student at that school, but we are unsure 0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:21.080 of what year unquote, and that Hale shot through the 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:23.799 door to gain entry into the school. The shooter made 0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:25.560 their way through the first and second floors at the school, 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:28.320 firing multiple shots before Hale was killed by police on 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:34.000 the school's second floor. So it's assumed by the police 0:34:34.040 --> 0:34:36.480 at this point, and they may have evidence that it's 0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:39.560 not been like made public yet that the shooter did 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.000 attend to school, but they are unsure for like exactly 0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:45.719 how long and what years specifically. I think it's it's 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:48.759 important to mention a few things about the school just 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:52.120 because this is a very unique mass shooting in a 0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:55.520 lot of ways, mass shootings at private schools, let alone 0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:59.520 private Christian schools is very rare. And this is also 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:04.440 like a preschool through sixth grade school. So the Covenant 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:06.560 School is a pre school through sixth grade private Christian 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:09.040 school founded in two thousand and one, and it shares 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:12.520 the same location as Covenant Presbyterian Church. The website states 0:35:12.520 --> 0:35:15.840 it has thirty three teaching faculty and around two hundred 0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:19.720 enrolled students per year, with tuition at around sixteen thousand 0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:22.479 dollars a year. According to the school's website, to quote, 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:25.000 the Covenant School is a ministry of Covenant Presbyterian Church 0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:27.920 created to assist Christian parents and the church by providing 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:32.120 an exceptional academic experience founded upon and informed by the 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:35.440 Word of God. So, I mean, honestly, this this is 0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:38.000 something that's pretty similar to the type of Christian school 0:35:38.000 --> 0:35:41.040 that I grew up in. It's the school that's attached 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:45.120 to this church. I also had around two hundred fellow students, 0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:47.680 so that this seems seems to be relatively pretty similar 0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:50.920 and not super uncommon for this type of private Christian school. 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:55.320 That's kind of all I'm going to get into that here. 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:58.040 I mean, I've I've looked around the school's website a lot, 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.560 and it seems pretty pretty basic in terms of these 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:05.640 types of Presbyterian private Christian schools. But now we're gonna 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:08.360 start getting into some of this stuff regarding the identity 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:11.799 of the shooter and a lot because there's a lot 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:14.520 of information going around. NBC News is now claiming that 0:36:14.600 --> 0:36:17.560 the shooter is a transgender woman. I don't think that's 0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:22.080 fully accurate. Um, but we're gonna effect quoting directly from 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:25.600 the car. Yeah. This is to be fair, I mean, 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.200 partly NBC's fault, because more they should have done as 0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:30.799 much research as you did, Garrison. Yeah, but they are 0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:34.080 quoting the police. Yeah. Yes. The gist is that the 0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:38.279 police identified this as a transgender woman. They have a manifesto. 0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:41.240 We don't know what's in the manifesto, but yeah, police 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:43.840 continue gare Yeah, and I guess I guess one of 0:36:43.880 --> 0:36:46.239 the things that's reported is after police said this was 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:49.960 a transgender woman, they also talked about how Hale had 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:54.319 conducted surveillance and prepared for the attack with detailed maps. Um. 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:58.680 And then also the aforementioned manifesto. But yes, we're gonna 0:36:58.719 --> 0:37:00.120 we're gonna move on to some of the stuff that 0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:03.600 we do know using just basic open source research stuff. 0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:07.600 So there is a LinkedIn page for someone named Audrey 0:37:07.600 --> 0:37:10.839 Hale in the Nashville area. They list a lot of 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:14.360 various like illustration jobs they've had for the past few years, 0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:17.440 and they do have a little pronoun marker next to 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:20.640 their name that says he him. Hale appears to have 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:25.480 had a website for their graphic design portfolio called AH Illustrations, 0:37:25.680 --> 0:37:29.480 so just their initials AH. They have posts in they're 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:33.120 being tagged from twenty twenty three from twenty twenty two, 0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:35.400 so it's been at least up for two years. I 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:39.080 tried to do like metadata stuff on some of their artwork. 0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:40.880 I did not really get much in terms of what 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:42.880 year they were posted, but we may be able to 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:45.560 learn more about that later. The website has an about 0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:50.200 page that introduces the person as Audrey Hale, but it 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:53.720 also directs you to a now vanished Instagram page called 0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:58.840 at Creative period Aiden. So we're we're going to go 0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:00.919 through some of the rights initials a bit later, because 0:38:00.920 --> 0:38:03.439 they were already calling us a transgender shooting before any 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.560 information came out at all, as a part of the 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:09.200 Sam Hide joke. Yeah, for reference, Sam Hide is kind 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:11.239 of a right wing comedian who had a show on 0:38:11.280 --> 0:38:14.080 Adult Swim. For the last several years, it has been 0:38:14.120 --> 0:38:16.680 a meme to every time there's a shooting, there's a 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:20.040 specific picture of Sam Hide holding a rifle that people 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:22.719 will post and say, I'm getting this picture that you 0:38:22.760 --> 0:38:25.560 know this was the shooter at whatever. It's been at Parkland, 0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:28.200 it's been at El Paso, it's been at Duvaldi. Every 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:31.880 single shooting this happens. And with this shooting, someone photoshopped 0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:35.239 some ladies head onto sam hide and claimed immediately that 0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:38.560 it was a transgender person. This also ties into the 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:42.680 Highland Park shooting, where the shooter wore women's clothing at 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:45.319 some point to try to escape, and the right continually 0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:48.520 tries to claim that that makes it a transgender shooting. Anyway, 0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:53.640 please continue, gare yes. So, by going through their online 0:38:53.640 --> 0:38:56.799 portfolio dated as far back as twenty twenty two, I 0:38:56.880 --> 0:39:00.520 found a self portrait that has a has a different 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:06.000 social media user name titled at cree dot tiv Dre. 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:11.960 I think Dre is for like Audrey, and this also 0:39:12.040 --> 0:39:14.520 appears to be an old Instagram handle before they changed 0:39:14.560 --> 0:39:19.400 it to at Creative. Aiden Hale's website also has another 0:39:19.440 --> 0:39:24.280 self portrait just tagged with the name Aiden and Aiden Creates. 0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:27.600 That one appears to be from maybe slightly after, but 0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:29.960 it's kind of unclear with how the website is laid out. 0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:34.400 So although the Instagram page for this person appears to 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:37.839 be taken down. It's unknown if they took it down 0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:40.879 or if Instagram took it down, but it is gone 0:39:40.920 --> 0:39:43.839 and there's no archive of it. It appears that Hale 0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:47.000 did have other social media accounts that are still online 0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:51.040 besides the aforementioned LinkedIn. A TikTok account by the name 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:55.320 of I am Underscore Aiden ten shares a profile picture 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:58.840 with Hale's own website, and it also links to Hale's 0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:03.920 Instagram page, which is mentioned on Hale's website. The TikTok 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.759 was seldom active, but their first visible post is from 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:11.160 March fifteenth, twenty twenty two. There are two other posts 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:13.640 from that month, and all three of these posts are 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:17.680 like about late nineties early two thousands video game nostalgia, 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:21.040 and thanks to TikTok's user name embedding feature, we can 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:24.280 see that the account used to be called Audrey Video 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:28.000 Game Nerd Underscore ten before being changed to i am 0:40:28.080 --> 0:40:33.480 Aiden ten sometime between March sixteenth and April fifteenth of 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:38.879 last year. Hale's last visible post is just from over 0:40:38.960 --> 0:40:43.799 a month ago, February ninth, twenty twenty three, and yeah, 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.000 just as a note kind of I've gone over less 0:40:46.000 --> 0:40:48.480 of this than you. But I've I've combed over what's available. 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:51.680 I don't notice any of the normal red flags. There's 0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:54.520 not even like pictures of this person posing with firearms. 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:57.440 There's not threats. There's one video where they seem to 0:40:57.480 --> 0:40:59.640 be mourning a friend or a relative, but it's a 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:03.759 pretty normal, like in memorium style video. None of their 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:07.440 art strikes me as disturbing in any way. No, it's 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:10.880 at least one red rum one they have. They have 0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:13.760 one piece of Shining fan art that the Right's been using. 0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:16.680 It sticks out, but also like the Shining is one 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.920 of the most popular movies of all time. Yeah, no, 0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:23.279 nothing nothing. As someone who's looked through the social media 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:27.760 accounts of a lot of shooters, this account is relatively normal, 0:41:27.920 --> 0:41:30.520 like they there's nothing in here that would be immediately 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.200 red flags. They did a lot of like corporate work. 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:34.959 I think I think they did artwork for the city 0:41:34.960 --> 0:41:37.600 of Denver. Yeah, it looks like it. They were being 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:40.600 commissioned to do a graphic design for a lot of businesses, 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:43.160 a lot of like local events in Nashville. Um. There 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.839 is one other thing from their website that I will mentioned, uh, 0:41:47.360 --> 0:41:50.399 part of their bio they have this sentence that says, 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:53.520 there is a childlike part of me that loves to 0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:56.520 go and run around on the playground, and the rights 0:41:56.600 --> 0:41:58.239 using this in like a like a weird like a 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:02.800 groomer way, being like this this kid wants, this adult 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:06.719 wants to go around with two playgrounds and their childlike 0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:09.239 this is this is a completely normal thing to say. 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:11.160 This is like, this is not a red flag. This 0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:15.680 is I also enjoy going on the playground. This is 0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:17.480 not a red flag either. This is just part of 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:20.799 weird culture war stuff. Yeah, yeah, I have another thing 0:42:20.800 --> 0:42:22.719 about being a kid forever and ever as well. It 0:42:22.760 --> 0:42:26.839 just seems that they connected with childhood things and those 0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:31.000 kind of things. Yeah, and like psychologically, maybe being kind 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.360 of stuck in the past or whatever is a part 0:42:33.400 --> 0:42:36.719 of how they describe or justify this in their manifesto. 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:38.640 We just don't know. But the point of the matter 0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:41.640 is if you had looked at this person's social media prior, 0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:44.640 and this is very different from most shooters, you would 0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:47.000 not have thought, oh, this is a person who is 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:49.920 of danger to people. There's there's just not signs in it. 0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:54.200 I mean, the one thing that is the kind of 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:57.359 last thing I'll mention is the I think the two 0:42:57.360 --> 0:43:00.560 other adults that were shot. One was a custodian, There 0:43:00.600 --> 0:43:02.320 was a was a I think it was like a 0:43:02.360 --> 0:43:06.680 substitute teacher. Um. They were all in their sixties. Um. 0:43:06.719 --> 0:43:09.359 It's unclear how long those two other people have been 0:43:09.360 --> 0:43:11.239 with the school of the head of the school has 0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:14.440 been been there for a while. Um. But I mean 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:19.520 because because it is a preschool through sixth grade school, UM, 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:22.200 Hale would not have been at the school relatively recently. 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:24.840 I can try to I'm trying. I'm trying to do 0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:27.680 like quick math here to be like if you would 0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:30.600 if you be in sixth grade and you're now twenty eight, 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:38.279 seventeen years ago, yeah, eleven years old, right, American's five yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, 0:43:38.320 --> 0:43:41.440 So it's it's it's certainly it's it's started in two 0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:44.600 thousand and one. So yeah, that's that is that is 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:48.080 that is possible. Yeah. I do want to note a 0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:49.839 couple of things before we move on to the right 0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:52.680 ring wing reaction. One of them just kind of again 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:55.680 to to sort of boil it down based on what 0:43:56.320 --> 0:44:00.480 is available publicly, we know this person seemed to have 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.680 been born and raised as Audrey Hale, started going by 0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:10.040 Aiden at the latest sometime last year. Their LinkedIn shows 0:44:10.040 --> 0:44:13.680 them at that point as using he him pronouns, but 0:44:14.000 --> 0:44:16.560 still but still with the name Audrey, but still with 0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:19.440 the name Audrey. It is actually very much at this 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:24.839 point still unclear how they exact precisely identified what pronouns 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:27.600 they used. We certainly don't know whether or not they 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:29.840 were on any kind of like hormones, not that that 0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:31.400 would have an impact on any of this, but we 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:34.920 have very little actual information. The police are saying that 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:39.239 they identify themselves as transgender in the manifesto. At some 0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:41.480 point we might learn more as a result of that, 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:44.160 but but it is. It is a lot of what's 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:48.800 being put out as either unclear or you know, wrong 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:50.880 in one way or the other. There's just a lot 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:53.560 of information that is kind of missing about this person. 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:57.000 People are jumping to conclusions on stuff, So we will 0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:59.839 probably learn more there later. One more note on this. 0:45:00.320 --> 0:45:03.600 The police are the ones that initiated the use of 0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:08.520 the term manifesto. Of now, there was no manifesto published 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:10.920 by the shooter. We do not know if this is 0:45:10.960 --> 0:45:15.640 a quote unquote manifesto like at all. The police have 0:45:15.760 --> 0:45:19.040 claimed that they found writing when they rated this person's house, 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.520 So this writing discussing things around their gender or what 0:45:23.560 --> 0:45:25.440 they were doing this This could be anything from like 0:45:25.440 --> 0:45:28.800 a suicide note to just like a diary or a journal. 0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:31.200 So by using the word manifesto, they're kind of trying 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.719 to tie it into that. We simply at this point 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:36.719 do not know if this was a manifesto at all, 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:38.640 Like we just that is that is a very loaded 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:42.400 term in this context. I think it's notable that the 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:47.560 shooter did not publish anything. Whereas usually when there's like manifestos, 0:45:47.960 --> 0:45:50.880 they are they are published online, right the shooter, the 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:53.520 shooter themselves will publish it online and that is kind 0:45:53.520 --> 0:45:56.200 of part of their entire attack. That is not the 0:45:56.280 --> 0:45:58.960 case here. The shooter did not publish anything about this 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:01.880 attack online that we've or that we've found, or that 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:04.239 anyone's found. So I think that's an important thing to 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:07.120 note when we're talking about the use of the word 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:12.080 manifesto here in terms of like the importance of a manifesto, 0:46:12.320 --> 0:46:15.000 you know, speaking as someone who has written professionally about 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:19.279 a number of them, Manifestos are obviously useful, especially when 0:46:19.360 --> 0:46:22.640 trying to analyze why someone did something, what their political 0:46:22.760 --> 0:46:25.279 goal may have been, if they're indeed there's a political goal, 0:46:25.760 --> 0:46:29.799 what their radicalization pathway has been. But a crucial thing 0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:33.360 is to never ever take a manifesto purely at face value. 0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:40.480 Manifestos are political writings by terrorists, right, That is what 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:45.640 a manifesto is, And they are writings that are kind 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:48.560 of calculated to achieve a goal. And I don't know 0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:51.600 what this person put in their manifesto. Their manifesto muld 0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:55.759 just have been a perfectly like accurate summation of their 0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:59.120 feelings of why they did this terrible thing. That's possible, 0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:02.440 we say, we don't know at this point. But manifestos 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:06.239 are a part of understanding a shooting and what the 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:08.399 goal was of the shooting and what the individual hope 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:11.520 to accomplish. But they cannot and never should be taken 0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:13.920 at face value. And that's what a lot of media 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:16.160 are going to do if this every does get public. 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:24.640 So please always show care and skepticism of directly reading 0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:28.920 from a manifesto, like even in the case, you know, 0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:31.440 there's just a lot, like in the christ Church manifesto 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:34.239 of like bullshit, shit posting, jokes and stuff thrown in 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:38.520 there with the real stuff. It's generally possible to us 0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:42.279 to get to gather and understand motive from a manifesto, 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:44.520 and I am you know, I will read it if 0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:50.200 it becomes available, but be very careful with such things. Yeah, 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.000 speaking of not being careful, let's talk about the right 0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:56.640 wing response to this, because I think broadly speaking, it's 0:47:56.640 --> 0:48:00.440 fair to characterize it as they are claimed, this is 0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:04.560 part of a line of terror attacks by transgender people. 0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:07.920 There's a lot of folks saying that this is reason 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:13.560 to ban gender affirming care, to ban hormone therapy, to 0:48:13.640 --> 0:48:19.120 ban trans people from purchasing firearms. This is a pretty 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:22.440 rampant on the right already. It became very quickly, so 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:24.120 I actually want to go over one thing I just 0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:28.440 came up and saw while Gare was talking that I 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:31.920 think is interesting as Candice Owens. Candice Owens is a 0:48:32.040 --> 0:48:38.280 right wing commentator, unfortunately quite influential and has a sizable platform. 0:48:38.640 --> 0:48:41.080 I want to quote from her response. Her initial response, 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:43.919 this was the immediate response when all the information was out, 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:45.960 was that there'd been a shooting at this school. I 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:48.279 live in Green Hills, and I'm positively devastated for the 0:48:48.280 --> 0:48:51.080 families impacted by this tragedy, Please suspend your politics and 0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:54.080 instead do what these families at this Christian school would want. Pray. 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.640 That's a perfectly reasonable response, at least for somebody who 0:48:57.640 --> 0:49:02.000 believes in prayer. Within a matter of like an hour 0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:07.000 or so, it became clear that or information began to 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:10.640 come out that the shooter was likely transgender, at which 0:49:10.680 --> 0:49:15.200 point Candace suspended her statement about not making it politics. 0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:19.160 She posted shortly after, transgenderism as a mental illness. Keep 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:22.120 your children away from transgendent individuals and their parents. People 0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:24.040 that support and encourage as air monsters and should be 0:49:24.080 --> 0:49:29.560 kept away from children. They yelled at. Matt Walsh made 0:49:29.560 --> 0:49:31.440 a statement, why haven't would be given the name of 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:34.280 the mass shooter yet, and Candace responded, because they're wiping 0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:36.480 the socials so they can make things up about the person. 0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:39.719 She noted as to a post by Matt Walsh being like, 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:42.160 the question is why this culture is producing so many 0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:44.000 people who want to carry out attacks like this. Take 0:49:44.040 --> 0:49:45.799 the guns and you'll still have a country infested by 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:48.759 homicidal sociopaths. Where they're coming from, what is creating them? 0:49:49.120 --> 0:49:51.000 Candace responded, I would start with the fact that we 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:54.120 now celebrate clinical insanity while we admonished normalcy. People are 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:56.359 aspiring to mental illness because they receive attention and off 0:49:56.400 --> 0:50:01.120 times are awarded for perversity. She is essentially taking the 0:50:01.200 --> 0:50:04.480 stance of like, we have to blame this on the 0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:08.719 fact that this person was transgender and being transgenderism mental illness, right, 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:11.560 That's the stance Canvas is taking. That's the stance a 0:50:11.600 --> 0:50:14.200 lot of folks are taking. One of the most widely 0:50:14.280 --> 0:50:16.600 shared posts from a right winger on this was by 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:24.320 a guy named dc Underscore. Draino notes himself as a husband, patriot, lawyer, constitutionalist, 0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:27.880 and anti woke. He has six hundred eighty six thousand 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:30.920 followers on Twitter. He has been relentless in posting about 0:50:30.920 --> 0:50:33.600 this as an act of transgender terror. He has spread 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:36.359 at some of the information that Garrison added on this 0:50:37.000 --> 0:50:42.040 podcast about this person's social media posts, and his posts 0:50:42.040 --> 0:50:43.600 are some of the most widely read and like that 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:46.600 I've seen. One of them reads. Unconfirmed reports identify the 0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.800 Nashville shooter as Audrey Hale, a biological female that identifies 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:52.719 as he him on their LinkedIn. Authorities believe the transgender 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:56.880 shooter previously attended the Christian school. He then follows, we 0:50:56.880 --> 0:50:58.799 will not let this story be swept under the rug. 0:50:58.840 --> 0:51:02.080 Trans terrorism must be confronted head on and stopped. Tennessee 0:51:02.120 --> 0:51:05.200 just passed laws restricting sextualized drag shows for children and 0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:08.200 banning the genital mutilation of children. Was today's mass shooting 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:10.680 at a Christian school by a transgender killer and act 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:13.759 of domestic terror? And when will we start talking about 0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:17.120 transgender mass murders targeting innocent school children in our schools? 0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:19.960 Enough as enough? And in this they posted a link 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.680 to a reader's story about a shooting from last year. 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:27.160 I think it was in Colorado in Denver. This was 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:30.040 a shooting where two people, one of whom was transgender, 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:36.000 walked into a school in Denver and shot at several classmates, 0:51:36.080 --> 0:51:40.080 killing one. They claimed it was revenge on classmates over bullying. 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:45.680 The McKinney, the transgender shooter, has been sentenced recently, so 0:51:45.719 --> 0:51:48.480 it's been in the news. This is being built as 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:52.719 like a transgender terrorist attack because spoiler, there's very few 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.799 cases of trans people carrying out acts of violence, so 0:51:55.800 --> 0:51:58.000 they're kind of grabbing what they can in order to 0:51:58.040 --> 0:52:00.640 try and make an argument that this is part of 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:04.959 a trend um. In the absence of any kind of manifesto, 0:52:05.800 --> 0:52:10.080 people are claiming that transidentity motivated the killings. The police 0:52:10.239 --> 0:52:12.960 seem to have helped to jump start this, all right, 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:15.520 So first off, we're going to play before we continue, 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:18.320 We're going to play a clip of the police press 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:22.239 conference where the police chief of Nashville talks about what 0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:24.920 has happened um and talks about the information that they 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:29.000 have about the shooter based on the apparently the manifesto 0:52:29.120 --> 0:52:31.399 that they have in the maps that they have. So 0:52:31.560 --> 0:52:34.920 we're going to play that. Now. Our investigations tell us 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:38.200 that she was a former student at the school. I 0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:41.640 don't know what great she's attended or great, but we 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.800 do firm the delite she was a student there. She 0:52:47.960 --> 0:52:56.319 does identify as trends. Yes, history, no history at all, 0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:00.279 and no motive of disappoint anything just go in the 0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:04.480 apartment or house. No, we have a manifesto. We have 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.799 some writings that we're going over that pertain to this day, 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:12.680 the actual incident. We have a map drawn out of 0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:15.960 how this was all going to take place. Uh, there's 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:19.480 right now a theory of that's that we may be 0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:22.080 able to talk about later. But it's not confirmed, and 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:24.319 so we'll we'll put that out as soon as we can. 0:53:24.440 --> 0:53:27.319 There any reason to believe that how she identifies is 0:53:27.600 --> 0:53:32.400 as any motive order targeting school, we can give you 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:35.640 that at a later time. There is uh some theory 0:53:35.680 --> 0:53:38.040 to that. We're investigating all the leads and once we 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:41.040 know exactly, we'll let you know. As a target at 0:53:41.080 --> 0:53:47.279 a time, it was a gender man or woman. Don't 0:53:47.280 --> 0:53:50.040 know any history of mental illness at this time, but 0:53:50.160 --> 0:53:53.319 we are looking at that as investigation is ongoing. And 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:59.719 I'm sorry, or woman a woman? All right? So yeah, 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:02.200 prison you want to start off here? Yeah, I think 0:54:02.480 --> 0:54:05.960 giving like the most charitable reading of that, I think 0:54:05.960 --> 0:54:08.640 it's possible that this police chief does not have as 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:13.160 a as a full art. I don't think this police 0:54:13.200 --> 0:54:17.680 chief has as an as an in depth understanding of 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:20.400 gender theory as some of us or the listeners do. 0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:23.160 So it is just confused by that question is it 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:25.719 a transman or a trans woman? And he answers me 0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:29.160 by saying, yeah, they're trans, but they are a woman. 0:54:30.080 --> 0:54:31.880 So I think that that could be what's going on. 0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:36.279 And then we have outlets like NBC News saying that 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:40.439 the person's a transgender woman, because they also are, for one, 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:45.240 not doing like very basic digging online and are also 0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:49.120 just making are just usually enjoy repeating the police's talking 0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:52.920 points when stuff like this happens, because it's just easier. Hey, everybody, 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:56.680 Robert here. Shortly after we finish this, the police chief 0:54:56.680 --> 0:55:00.760 of Nashville, John Drake, went on Lester Holtz NBC show 0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:04.920 and gave another statement that was much more accurate than 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:07.759 the previous statement that we just played you, which the 0:55:07.880 --> 0:55:09.480 right wing is making a lot of hay out of. 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:13.440 In the statement, they note that the shooter attended the 0:55:13.440 --> 0:55:16.240 school as a child and was resentful of the school 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:19.200 and of being forced to attend it, that the school 0:55:19.200 --> 0:55:22.360 was the target and not any specific individual, and that 0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:26.000 the victims were random. They also owe in this statement 0:55:26.040 --> 0:55:28.600 to Lester Holt, the police chief makes a lot less 0:55:28.640 --> 0:55:30.400 of a deal about the fact that the shooter was 0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:33.279 trans It seems like the first statement that they made 0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:35.799 was based on either incomplete information or in the heat 0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:37.680 of the moment. But I'm going to play you this 0:55:37.760 --> 0:55:40.600 statement and then we will continue the episode. It sounds 0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:43.719 like things are moving very quickly. You describe this as 0:55:43.719 --> 0:55:50.000 a targeted attack, and you elaborate absolutely. So. The person 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:54.120 we know as Audrey Hale, she's a twenty eight year 0:55:54.160 --> 0:56:01.520 old NATSH Fillion. We have believe or feel it's very 0:56:01.520 --> 0:56:04.560 strongly that she went to school here in the natural area, 0:56:04.640 --> 0:56:09.200 and she went to that actual school, and and so 0:56:11.080 --> 0:56:13.959 there's some belief that there was some resentment for having 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.640 to go to that school. Don't have all the details 0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:20.960 of that just yet, and and that's why this incident occurred. 0:56:21.080 --> 0:56:24.600 Did Hale target in your mind, did Hale target the 0:56:24.640 --> 0:56:31.560 school or someone in the school? She targeted random students 0:56:31.640 --> 0:56:35.640 in the school, just whoever, and and persons whoever she 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:40.040 came in contact with, she fired rounds. You recovered what 0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:43.160 you've described as a manifesto. You've also said that Hale 0:56:43.239 --> 0:56:46.640 identified as trans. Do you believe there is a connection 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:52.880 to that. We feel that he identifies as trans, But 0:56:53.120 --> 0:56:56.279 was still in the initial investigation into all of that, 0:56:56.440 --> 0:56:59.840 And if it actually played a role into this incident. 0:57:00.360 --> 0:57:03.920 As we know more, we'll definitely make that known, but 0:57:04.040 --> 0:57:06.200 right now we'll unsure if that actually played a role. 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:09.440 But does the manifesto point you in a particular direction 0:57:09.480 --> 0:57:16.480 that you can reveal that has in the initial investigation 0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:19.520 we've turned it over to the FBI. We've looked over 0:57:19.560 --> 0:57:22.320 it as well, and it indicates that there was going 0:57:22.360 --> 0:57:29.080 to be shootings at multiple locations and the school was 0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:32.160 one of them. There was actually a map of the 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:36.240 school detail and surveillance entry points and how this was 0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:39.200 going to be carried out on this day. Yeah, I mean, 0:57:39.240 --> 0:57:41.520 I think a big part of this is that after 0:57:41.560 --> 0:57:47.520 a mass shooting in any national paper or other media outlet, 0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:49.960 you're always trying to be first with something, and that 0:57:50.720 --> 0:57:53.080 creates a situation where like, you don't fact yet, you 0:57:53.080 --> 0:57:55.320 don't do the basic ocin looking up right, You just 0:57:55.360 --> 0:57:58.360 like cops have said something, get it out, get the most, 0:57:58.520 --> 0:58:01.720 get a ton of clicks, And that leads to disappointing 0:58:01.800 --> 0:58:08.120 sort of repetition of half well in falsehoods that we're seeing. Yeah, 0:58:08.160 --> 0:58:10.320 and it leads to it provides a lot of So 0:58:10.560 --> 0:58:13.120 one thing that the right has always understood is that 0:58:13.320 --> 0:58:16.160 the immediate aftermath of a story that breaks into the 0:58:16.160 --> 0:58:20.360 news is you call it the wet cement period, where 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:23.760 if people are talking about it, if you can, if 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:27.040 you can lasso a narrative and drag it out in 0:58:27.080 --> 0:58:31.200 front of everybody and get momentum behind it. Then that 0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:34.480 effectively becomes reality for an awful lot of people, and 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:36.960 it's very important, which is why they're all immediately falling 0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:39.320 into line on this. One of the posts that I 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:42.520 just ran across is from Benny Johnson, who's a right 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:46.280 wing media guy. So Benny Johnson says, the Colorado spring 0:58:46.280 --> 0:58:49.520 shooter identified as non binary, the Dinver shooter identified as trans, 0:58:49.560 --> 0:58:53.760 the Aberdeen shooter identified as trans, the Nashville shooter identified 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:55.720 as trans. One thing is very clear, the modern trans 0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:59.840 movement is radicalizing activists into terrorists. Elon Musk responded to 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:03.680 this with an exclamation point, which is great. Um, the 0:59:03.720 --> 0:59:08.080 Colorado spring shooter was not non binary. The Colorado springshooters 0:59:08.160 --> 0:59:11.280 lawyers made that claim briefly while they were trying to 0:59:11.600 --> 0:59:14.360 cobble together a defense after this person killed two trans 0:59:14.400 --> 0:59:19.680 people and shot up an LGBT nightclub. The Dinver shooter 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:23.040 is the person we just talked about. Um well, I 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:26.560 mean also they also could be referring to that to that, yes, 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:33.800 probably yeah, yeah, and um yeah, it's uh like it's 0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:37.680 it's it's frustrating, like what they're doing with this stuff here, 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:40.400 Like it's very obvious, especially in trying to wrap in 0:59:40.440 --> 0:59:43.240 the attack of a right wing terrorist on an lgbt 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:47.200 UM club to part like to an act of like 0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:50.680 claiming that it's an act of transgender terrorism. UM. A 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:54.320 lot of this is spreading, particularly among people who paid 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:57.320 for blue check marks on the new Twitter um, because 0:59:57.360 --> 0:59:59.720 that's like, yeah, this is kind of the first mass 0:59:59.760 --> 1:00:04.160 shoot we have had in the new Elon's kind of 1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:06.760 new check mark thing, where like people are able to 1:00:06.840 --> 1:00:09.760 kind of verify themselves for money, and we're about to 1:00:09.800 --> 1:00:13.720 see all of the old verified accounts. Loves verification. We'll 1:00:13.720 --> 1:00:15.480 talk a little bit more about how well that's actually 1:00:15.560 --> 1:00:19.360 working for them later, which is actually less clear, so 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:22.720 that's possibly a positive thing. But yeah, I mean it's 1:00:23.160 --> 1:00:27.160 pretty obvious. Andy knows posted about this. He's another He 1:00:27.200 --> 1:00:29.000 works for a place called The Post Millennial. He's a 1:00:29.080 --> 1:00:32.480 right wing gooul. He says the shooting comes amid a 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:35.480 surge of far left death threats in Tennessee over the states, 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:39.040 you know, anti trans laws. He provides no evidence of this. 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:43.400 He does quote or cite an eminem's ad that Audrey 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:46.680 Hail made that is like a Pride ad that says 1:00:46.680 --> 1:00:50.080 born this way you know, it's like a rainbow of 1:00:50.120 --> 1:00:52.800 Eminem's that says born this way appears to be something 1:00:52.800 --> 1:00:54.760 that they may have done for money. I don't know, 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:58.880 isn't really relevant to the situation. One of the uglier 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:00.720 posts that I found on a right comes from a 1:01:00.720 --> 1:01:03.880 guy who identifies himself as an American dissident, Stu Peters. 1:01:04.480 --> 1:01:07.400 He's the executive producer Have Died Suddenly, which is one 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:11.040 of these right wing attempts to connect every single death 1:01:11.120 --> 1:01:15.200 of a person who got vaccinated to the vaccination, which 1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:18.040 is a ghoulish thing to do anyway. And yeah, they 1:01:18.280 --> 1:01:22.320 they initially leapt into there's a lot of like ugliness 1:01:22.480 --> 1:01:25.600 in here. Stu is one of the more open folks, 1:01:25.720 --> 1:01:29.200 calling them a tranny named Audrey Hale who is a 1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:34.640 former student of Covenant School. They kind of interpret the 1:01:34.680 --> 1:01:38.800 police statement, which is at least very warbly, as the 1:01:38.840 --> 1:01:41.600 police saying this was a direct attack on Christians, which 1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:45.000 the cops have not yet said. Stu posts police admit 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:47.680 this was a targeted attack on Christians by a demonic 1:01:47.720 --> 1:01:51.320 tranny for some context. Another one of his posts is 1:01:51.440 --> 1:01:55.600 arguing that Zelinski is waging war on Christians. So you 1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:59.000 know this is a should be seen with guys like 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:01.880 this in addition to being the troubling thing that it 1:02:02.000 --> 1:02:07.240 is part of kind of the broader like echo chamber 1:02:07.240 --> 1:02:10.040 that the right has set up for itself. Like this 1:02:10.120 --> 1:02:13.960 is troubling and problematic and to a degree frightening, and 1:02:14.000 --> 1:02:18.480 they're going to continue to try to push for disarming 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:20.840 trans people as a result of this. I suspect we'll 1:02:20.880 --> 1:02:23.880 see states introduce bills that are red flag laws just 1:02:23.960 --> 1:02:26.640 for trans people. This is the kind of thing that 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:30.240 I am worried about, but it also is kind of 1:02:30.240 --> 1:02:33.520 worth seeing this as this is very much in line 1:02:33.800 --> 1:02:37.920 with the other kind of right wing echo chamber panic 1:02:38.000 --> 1:02:42.320 stuff that is everywhere, and so far, while this is 1:02:42.400 --> 1:02:47.400 deeply concerning, I'm not seeing evidence that it's breaking out 1:02:47.440 --> 1:02:51.200 of the right and like that doesn't mean it's not 1:02:51.280 --> 1:02:53.720 a problem, but it is kind of worth noting. The 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:56.760 actual trending tags right now on Twitter are not what 1:02:56.800 --> 1:03:00.680 you'd expect. The Tennessee shooting is not trending on its 1:03:00.720 --> 1:03:05.240 own in a particularly high position. It's substantially lower than 1:03:05.600 --> 1:03:08.320 the Uvaldi and Highland Park shootings, both of which you're 1:03:08.360 --> 1:03:10.960 trending right now. This is based on a Twitter account 1:03:10.960 --> 1:03:12.840 I use that is not my Twitter account. It's just 1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:15.640 a blank account, so I'm hoping to get a little 1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:17.240 bit less of a biased thing. When I looked at 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:20.200 my own accounts trending, it was Uvaldi and Highland Park 1:03:20.320 --> 1:03:24.360 as well as Columbine was trending. Sam Hyde is trending, 1:03:24.440 --> 1:03:26.720 you know, because he always does after a shooting. As 1:03:26.760 --> 1:03:29.960 a result of this stuff, guns is trending. I think 1:03:30.080 --> 1:03:32.720 a R fifteen was trending on one of my accounts, 1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:40.080 But I'm not yet seeing evidence that this is anywhere 1:03:40.480 --> 1:03:43.320 like that. The ant trand stuff has made it outside 1:03:43.360 --> 1:03:47.480 of the right wing fever swamps. Yea, you are getting 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:52.480 like again. That does not mean it's not troubling. It 1:03:52.640 --> 1:03:56.600 is deeply troubling, but it's also not when I'm looking 1:03:56.600 --> 1:04:00.600 at sort of liberal and centrist responses to this, it's 1:04:00.800 --> 1:04:04.120 noteworthy that what is trending is Uvaldi and Highland Park 1:04:04.240 --> 1:04:07.760 and Columbine because what's common is people sort of putting 1:04:07.760 --> 1:04:12.960 this within the continuum of America's nightmarish problem with mass shootings, 1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:15.840 particularly at schools, which is the right way to see this. 1:04:16.840 --> 1:04:22.040 This is part of an ongoing series of island acts 1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:24.640 and a mass shooter culture that exists within this country, 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:27.360 and obviously it's tied to the availability of guns. It's 1:04:27.360 --> 1:04:29.640 tied to a number of things. But it is kind 1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:32.920 of worth noting that when it comes to what most 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:35.080 people are seeing as a result of this, it is 1:04:35.600 --> 1:04:39.439 another mass shooting in America, and not trans people are 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:43.040 carrying out terrorist attacks. That is so far, at least 1:04:44.040 --> 1:04:46.360 just like a thing I'm seeing in the right wing 1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:50.760 fever swamps. Yeah, I think. I think Marjorie Taylor Green 1:04:50.880 --> 1:04:53.200 is one of the first, like sitting politicians to make 1:04:53.200 --> 1:04:58.080 a statement focused on the shooter's gender identity, saying how 1:04:58.160 --> 1:05:02.080 much hormones like testosterone and medications for mental illness was 1:05:02.160 --> 1:05:06.479 the transgender Nashville shooter taking. Everyone can stop blaming guns now, 1:05:06.800 --> 1:05:09.480 and like this style of messaging is just blaming the 1:05:09.480 --> 1:05:13.080 shooting on like HRT and and health medication. But there's 1:05:13.160 --> 1:05:16.000 no indication at this point that the shooter was taking 1:05:16.000 --> 1:05:19.440 testosterone or was on any medication. But this is just 1:05:19.480 --> 1:05:22.120 a clear attempt to like tie this shooting into the 1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:26.720 campaign against trans healthcare that that Green has been doing 1:05:26.760 --> 1:05:29.600 for years now, and to make trans healthcare seem like 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:32.960 the reason that this shooting took place. Yeah, this person 1:05:33.040 --> 1:05:36.800 has kind of already become like like Schrodinger's like gender 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:39.240 affirming care right where like and you know, suggesting they're 1:05:39.240 --> 1:05:42.280 doing attacks because they can't access gender affirming care. Marju 1:05:42.360 --> 1:05:44.760 Tela Greens is acting that the gender affirming care they 1:05:44.760 --> 1:05:47.600 did access made them become more violent, like the same 1:05:47.600 --> 1:05:52.560 thing with Jack Sobiak, who was saying that testosterone increases aggression. Yeah. 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:59.560 Jack Posobik is an influential Republican advisor and commentator. He's 1:05:59.560 --> 1:06:02.440 a fat he's a fascist, Like, he's a terrible person. 1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:05.400 He's the guy who initially spread the Pizzagate conspiracy theory. 1:06:06.080 --> 1:06:08.600 But he is influential on the right because of his 1:06:08.640 --> 1:06:10.720 ability to get stuff to go viral on the base. 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:13.280 And I guess one thing we should mention that that 1:06:13.360 --> 1:06:16.640 kind of ties into is that Sobiac's been repeating some 1:06:16.760 --> 1:06:20.959 talking points that Tucker Carlson focused on a few nights 1:06:20.960 --> 1:06:24.680 ago during his show. There was an NPR segment about 1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:28.320 trans people who are purchasing firearms to defend themselves that 1:06:28.440 --> 1:06:32.240 interviewed somebody on a number of folks. One of the 1:06:32.240 --> 1:06:35.120 people they interviewed is a person who goes by queer 1:06:35.240 --> 1:06:39.480 armor on Twitter about why they've chosen to be armed 1:06:39.560 --> 1:06:43.360 and like advocate other trans people arm themselves for self defense. 1:06:43.760 --> 1:06:46.480 Tucker took quotes from that person and made a very 1:06:46.520 --> 1:06:50.920 fearmongering piece about how NPR and the liberals want to 1:06:50.960 --> 1:06:55.400 create an army of trans stormtroopers and disarm regular Americans. Right, 1:06:56.200 --> 1:07:00.680 that's the piece, yeah, talking of, like, I guess Americans. 1:07:01.240 --> 1:07:04.080 One thing that's also twending is just an incredibly crass 1:07:04.160 --> 1:07:08.520 photo that the representative for that fifties fifth district, which 1:07:08.600 --> 1:07:10.840 the district the school was in, who's called Andy Ogles 1:07:11.480 --> 1:07:15.200 Ogules maybe posted for his Christmas photo. I guess which 1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:19.040 is him. It's a classic Republican politician photo, right, entire family, 1:07:19.600 --> 1:07:23.320 everyone holding a different variant of an AAR fifteen, and 1:07:23.600 --> 1:07:26.200 it's Yeah, look, I think, regardless of what you think 1:07:26.200 --> 1:07:28.720 about guns, is kind of crass to be parading them 1:07:28.720 --> 1:07:31.600 as like culture war tokens like this. And I've noticed 1:07:33.200 --> 1:07:35.360 that's been trending across a lot of at least of 1:07:35.440 --> 1:07:39.320 timeline I'm seeing. Yeah, this is this is at the 1:07:39.320 --> 1:07:42.360 nexus of a number of things that are like fucked 1:07:42.480 --> 1:07:47.120 up about this country. I'm just enjoying Ian Miles Chong's 1:07:47.200 --> 1:07:51.320 timeline unfortunately, and who is he emails shop? Right we 1:07:51.480 --> 1:07:56.800 engagement provocateur. Yeah, he lives in Thailand, Right, Malaysia. I 1:07:56.840 --> 1:07:59.520 believe Malaysia, Malaysia. He has like he has like half 1:07:59.520 --> 1:08:03.760 a million to followers, influential on the online sphere. His 1:08:03.880 --> 1:08:06.720 telegram is Culture war Room, which is, you know, giving 1:08:06.760 --> 1:08:09.040 you what you need to get. I think so I'm 1:08:09.080 --> 1:08:12.280 just going to read this tweet and obviously, like all 1:08:12.320 --> 1:08:15.919 the sort of content warnings you'd expect, today, a mass 1:08:15.920 --> 1:08:17.760 show to murder three children and three adults at a 1:08:17.800 --> 1:08:22.360 Christian school in Nashville, Tennessee. The murderer pronouns were, was 1:08:22.400 --> 1:08:26.080 transgender and had written a manifesto detailing their intentions, which 1:08:26.120 --> 1:08:29.000 come days after Tennessee passed child protection laws and tended 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:31.720 to curb children from being subjected to trans surgeries and 1:08:31.760 --> 1:08:35.880 other irreversible procedures. Their heinous actions follow a month of 1:08:35.920 --> 1:08:38.960 media driven rhetoric about a transgenocide and calls for a 1:08:39.000 --> 1:08:41.759 so called trans Day of retribution. In the United States, 1:08:42.240 --> 1:08:46.040 it is conceivable that much of the conservative public derided assists. 1:08:46.080 --> 1:08:49.240 It's now open season for gender extremists who have been 1:08:49.320 --> 1:08:52.880 terrorizing women who dared to speak out against a woke ideology. 1:08:53.600 --> 1:08:56.280 When they tell you what they intend to do, believe them. 1:08:56.840 --> 1:09:01.680 So Hale has posted nothing about a trans Day of Retribution, 1:09:02.280 --> 1:09:06.439 has posted nothing publicly about being trans. Really, there's not 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:11.640 a single post discussing their gender identity online. This is 1:09:11.680 --> 1:09:18.040 just they're just trying to weird political points by purposely 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:21.560 like making it sound like this person was writing about 1:09:21.600 --> 1:09:24.280 this stuff online. And there's no evidence that they had 1:09:24.320 --> 1:09:26.400 writing about this stuff, nor is there any of it 1:09:26.439 --> 1:09:29.519 online that we can find. And yeah, I don't know. 1:09:29.560 --> 1:09:31.479 I mean, it's it's it's basic stuff that people like 1:09:31.600 --> 1:09:34.160 him do in the aftermath of like any type of 1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:37.679 event like this. Yeah, you know, we're gonna end now 1:09:37.760 --> 1:09:40.160 because anything pretty much anymore we said would be getting 1:09:40.160 --> 1:09:43.320 into speculation or just belaboring the point about these fucking 1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:46.280 right wing goals. But I do want to end on 1:09:46.360 --> 1:09:51.800 a post from a follower, a Twitter personality who I 1:09:51.840 --> 1:09:55.479 consider to be pretty pretty savvy. They go by Juniper 1:09:55.720 --> 1:10:00.519 on Twitter. They noted this fifteen years ago. Anytime a shooting, 1:10:00.520 --> 1:10:02.040 the would blome it on Muslims, and if it were 1:10:02.040 --> 1:10:04.679 a Muslim, they would go Hogwhile trying to indict all Muslims. 1:10:04.840 --> 1:10:07.080 They're doing that right now with the Nashville school shooting, 1:10:07.080 --> 1:10:10.280 and we'll try to indict all trans people. Just don't engage. 1:10:10.600 --> 1:10:13.439 See a Matt Walsh take that is incredibly aggravating. Ignore it. 1:10:13.479 --> 1:10:16.360 See a politician tweet miss gendering the shooter while simultaneously 1:10:16.360 --> 1:10:18.960 trying to blame all trans people. Ignore it. Anyone with 1:10:19.000 --> 1:10:20.760 a brain and a shred of empathy, we'll see right 1:10:20.800 --> 1:10:23.400 wingers as the psychopaths. They are a lot of trans 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:25.559 people are rightfully scared in the world right now. People 1:10:25.600 --> 1:10:27.800 hate us without even knowing us, and how amazing we are. 1:10:28.040 --> 1:10:29.559 Just know that you are loved and we will win. 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:38.519 The world cannot hate us forever. Hey, everybody, Garrison and 1:10:38.600 --> 1:10:41.280 I are going to put together a post, a substack 1:10:41.320 --> 1:10:45.360 post sort of synthesizing their research and what I've got 1:10:45.400 --> 1:10:47.840 so far in the right wing response, and we will 1:10:47.840 --> 1:10:50.519 be posting that up. It'll be at shatter Zone dot 1:10:50.520 --> 1:10:53.400 substack dot com if you want it in an easier 1:10:53.439 --> 1:10:55.759 text version that you can kind of share with people. 1:11:02.920 --> 1:11:04.920 Welcome to Dick it happened here. A podcast for the 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:08.760 Thing is Not Well, We're Here has temporarily been relocated 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:11.559 to the UK once again. Oh what I'm awful place 1:11:11.600 --> 1:11:16.000 to be. Lookay, Yeah, I'm your host, Mia Wong, and 1:11:16.160 --> 1:11:19.559 today with me to talk about things in the Kingdom 1:11:19.640 --> 1:11:22.120 that is united for some reason, is Nick, who is 1:11:22.320 --> 1:11:24.840 a resident nurse there. Nick. How are you doing? I'm 1:11:24.840 --> 1:11:27.600 doing all right? Um, A lot better for being a 1:11:27.720 --> 1:11:33.679 holiday right now. Yeah, yeah, getting getting getting to escape 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:43.040 the sort of dismal swamp of rainy Rainy Island. Yeah. 1:11:43.560 --> 1:11:46.240 So on the other hand, there are things that are 1:11:46.280 --> 1:11:49.479 in motion on Turf Island which are interesting and cool 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:52.600 and that is on that Okay. So I have no 1:11:52.640 --> 1:11:54.439 idea once again when this is going to come out, 1:11:54.520 --> 1:11:57.840 Like this could be coming out like four weeks from now, 1:11:57.960 --> 1:12:00.720 like there could be six more prime ministers kudos, what's 1:12:00.720 --> 1:12:05.879 going to happen? Um? Yeah, I six could be Richie's 1:12:05.880 --> 1:12:08.680 outlasted the letters unlike our last one. But you know, 1:12:11.280 --> 1:12:14.200 sorry to anyone who's up to British political memes, that's 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:16.720 going to be arcane and inscrutable. And I'm not connecting that. 1:12:18.439 --> 1:12:20.519 We we we we we ran them through a like 1:12:20.600 --> 1:12:23.040 two hour British politics boot camp a couple of weeks ago, 1:12:23.120 --> 1:12:26.960 so hopefully they still remember. Yeah. But so the reason 1:12:27.040 --> 1:12:29.400 thing is so on on on the day we are recording, 1:12:29.439 --> 1:12:31.639 there are a bunch of strikes going on in the UK. 1:12:31.840 --> 1:12:33.640 There have been a bunch of strikes going on in 1:12:33.720 --> 1:12:37.160 the UK for a while. They keep doing this weird okay, 1:12:37.160 --> 1:12:39.160 this is my this is my, my, my, my, my, 1:12:39.960 --> 1:12:41.840 I'm gonna I'm gonna do my one bit of what 1:12:41.840 --> 1:12:45.160 what are you guys doing strategically thing, which is okay. 1:12:45.160 --> 1:12:48.400 So they keep having these strikes and then they'll like 1:12:48.640 --> 1:12:51.160 go off strike for like three weeks as like a 1:12:51.240 --> 1:12:54.479 quote side of good faith for their negotiations, and then 1:12:54.520 --> 1:12:57.240 nothing happens and they go back on strike and it's like, well, okay, 1:12:57.240 --> 1:13:00.760 like you could just not do this. Yeah, so straight 1:13:00.840 --> 1:13:04.040 strikes have been continuing, and yeah, I wanted to talk 1:13:04.040 --> 1:13:06.000 to you about some of the nurses strikes that's been 1:13:06.000 --> 1:13:08.320 happening and about the sort of organizing that's been going on, 1:13:08.400 --> 1:13:11.479 because that's what's been really cool and not reported on enough. 1:13:11.960 --> 1:13:14.800 I guess the place that I want to start with 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:18.479 this is with the last rit of deck. Well. I mean, 1:13:18.479 --> 1:13:20.200 I guess there's been a lot of usteria the UK, 1:13:20.320 --> 1:13:21.680 but I want to kind of start with the last 1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:25.040 sort of decade of austerity and the damage that's been 1:13:25.040 --> 1:13:27.679 doing to the healthcare system and what what that's looked 1:13:27.680 --> 1:13:35.759 like on your end. So there's a couple of ways 1:13:35.760 --> 1:13:39.080 it's manifests. One is like there's been a centralization of 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:43.479 healthcare services are closing down of hospitals and making larger 1:13:43.520 --> 1:13:46.719 hospitals and contain more and more specialties. So for instance, 1:13:46.760 --> 1:13:49.760 my hospital that I work in as a result came 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:53.200 about the clothing downs about I think three smaller hospitals. 1:13:53.280 --> 1:13:57.240 She is, I mean each hospital that was lost, we 1:13:57.400 --> 1:13:59.320 lost about at least a hundred beds for each one 1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:05.280 that was created. They're centralized into our one. There's been 1:14:05.520 --> 1:14:09.040 massive cut back in like lack of funding and preventive 1:14:09.080 --> 1:14:12.839 healthcare and community healthcare. One interesting example of that manifests 1:14:12.920 --> 1:14:17.960 is like they shifted the provision of community healthcare and 1:14:18.080 --> 1:14:21.720 social care for new mothers to being run by the 1:14:21.800 --> 1:14:26.960 local council that's like local either county or city, even 1:14:27.080 --> 1:14:31.640 larger cities level government, and then they would put out 1:14:31.720 --> 1:14:33.840 the process where rather than just it goes automatically to 1:14:33.880 --> 1:14:35.799 the NHS, it needs to be put out to tender 1:14:37.320 --> 1:14:42.440 and give like charities or nonprofits or even private healthcare 1:14:42.600 --> 1:14:46.760 providers an opportunity to bid on providing the service. That's 1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:50.120 and that's a terrible winner on the system. Oh no, 1:14:50.200 --> 1:14:53.640 it's absolutely insane. It's absolutely insane. And what this And 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:56.080 then the end result of this is the NHS service 1:14:56.240 --> 1:14:58.960 gets it because they're the only one that can actually 1:14:59.040 --> 1:15:03.160 credit credit provide the service. But they have to essentially 1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:06.400 massively underestimate how much it will cost to run in 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:12.040 order to run to run the service, because they have 1:15:12.040 --> 1:15:14.400 to they have to underbid the other services that are 1:15:14.400 --> 1:15:17.000 not going to do Yeah. Wow, and that is a 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:21.040 terribly designed system. Yeah. And then there's also like introduction 1:15:21.080 --> 1:15:26.280 of like trying to in order to cut back on 1:15:26.360 --> 1:15:28.559 the backlogs that like the cutting down and services have 1:15:28.680 --> 1:15:34.519 created by like outsourcing some healthcare, some surgeries and stuff 1:15:34.520 --> 1:15:38.800 to private healthcare, private hospitals. But then they're able to 1:15:38.880 --> 1:15:41.880 just pick and choose the easiest, least whisky, and most 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:46.439 profitable ones. And of course, any any complications that result 1:15:46.560 --> 1:15:52.720 of the problems with surgery, issues with treatment, adverse reactions, 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:56.640 the surgeons fucking it up because they were working overnight 1:15:56.640 --> 1:15:58.760 in order to get extra in order to get some 1:15:58.840 --> 1:16:02.280 extra money after doing a shift in the NHS hospital, 1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:05.000 which is often the case, then falls back on the 1:16:05.080 --> 1:16:10.200 NHS proper and then in terms of workforce the average 1:16:10.479 --> 1:16:14.800 on average. This isn't just nurses. There's a universal pay 1:16:14.800 --> 1:16:18.240 scale using the NHS for everyone called the Gender for Change. 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:24.639 There's a pastry defined that confusing name, but the reason 1:16:24.680 --> 1:16:26.280 for that is it was a very much it was 1:16:26.320 --> 1:16:30.160 a less unified system before, like the early two thousands, 1:16:30.200 --> 1:16:32.559 everyone knew it was messed up. There was a big 1:16:33.080 --> 1:16:35.439 pushed by unions and also by government who wants to 1:16:35.520 --> 1:16:38.280 rationalize the whole thing to make it make more sense 1:16:38.760 --> 1:16:42.240 in theory, tie people's wage to what they were actually 1:16:42.320 --> 1:16:45.439 doing more directly in a more consistent way. Hence Agenda 1:16:45.479 --> 1:16:47.360 for Change because there was an agenda for changing off 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:49.720 what's happening, but it's been in placed over twenty years. 1:16:49.720 --> 1:16:52.320 And also the name doesn't make sense, but basically everyone 1:16:52.320 --> 1:16:54.479 on Agenda for Change has on average in the last 1:16:54.479 --> 1:16:57.400 ten years had a twenty percent pay cut in real terms. 1:16:58.520 --> 1:17:03.000 Then doctors and dents because they're special boys love them, 1:17:03.040 --> 1:17:06.880 but you know, have on a different pay scale, and 1:17:06.960 --> 1:17:10.120 junior doctors on average have had an even worse paycut 1:17:10.160 --> 1:17:13.080 of about twenty eight percent. Then there are strikes. There 1:17:13.120 --> 1:17:15.880 are on strike like right now. Yeah, they're on strike 1:17:16.040 --> 1:17:19.160 right now, And unlike my union, they haven't pissed about 1:17:19.760 --> 1:17:23.080 the government. They've gone straight to a full three days no. 1:17:23.720 --> 1:17:27.480 Derogation is the term for agreeing to not provide services 1:17:27.520 --> 1:17:31.920 for life or in order to protect patient safety, which 1:17:32.080 --> 1:17:34.200 the RCN went in for in a big way. In 1:17:34.240 --> 1:17:35.680 some ways, they've got it a bit easier, and that 1:17:35.800 --> 1:17:37.920 they can just say, oh, the consultants will do all 1:17:37.920 --> 1:17:41.360 of this, Like that is do you to translate into 1:17:41.360 --> 1:17:47.120 America to American healthcare that would be attending. And so 1:17:47.200 --> 1:17:50.280 this strike of junior doctors includes everyone from like their 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:53.519 first two years post medical school what we call foundation years. 1:17:54.360 --> 1:17:58.160 Possibly that'd be equivalent to internship in America, and then 1:17:58.640 --> 1:18:02.080 our registrars, so people residing specialty training equivalent of a 1:18:02.200 --> 1:18:07.919 like a resident. I believe the government tried to persuade 1:18:07.920 --> 1:18:09.879 them to call off in order to go into talks, 1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:12.160 but they hadn't made a big show on promise of 1:18:12.200 --> 1:18:14.120 like we will in good faith, we will call off 1:18:14.439 --> 1:18:18.840 strikes and go into negotiations if the government agrees to 1:18:18.840 --> 1:18:22.320 have serious formal talks. So they were able to just 1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:25.000 say to the government, no, you're putting too many preconditions 1:18:25.000 --> 1:18:27.880 on these talks. We're not doing it until you make 1:18:28.040 --> 1:18:31.200 until you stop messing us about, whereas unfortunately, in my union, 1:18:31.280 --> 1:18:36.160 the RCM is addicted to protecting the image of nursing 1:18:36.200 --> 1:18:38.679 and like acting in good faith even when they're dealing 1:18:38.720 --> 1:18:43.599 with someone who have no intention of dealing in good faith. Yeah, which, yeah, 1:18:43.640 --> 1:18:47.080 that that that I don't know as a strategy. It's 1:18:47.080 --> 1:18:50.120 really frustrating because you're just didn't get ent, like you 1:18:50.160 --> 1:18:52.800 can just get locked in endless negotiations, which is nothing 1:18:52.920 --> 1:18:57.920 is happening, And yeah, it's really frustrating. So provide some 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:01.600 stir called contact with this RCN. In England, Wales and 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:04.519 Scotland Northern Ires a slightly different story, had never had 1:19:04.520 --> 1:19:08.720 a strike until last year. Historically the RCN was an 1:19:08.720 --> 1:19:14.000 anti strike union. Wait, yeah, yes, that's the thing in 1:19:14.040 --> 1:19:16.760 the UK. Yeah, like I know, I know, like the 1:19:16.840 --> 1:19:19.000 US has a lot of weird, not very good unions, 1:19:19.000 --> 1:19:21.920 but like I don't know, i'much ever heard of really, 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:26.240 that's yes. Wow, So that changed either in the nineties 1:19:26.320 --> 1:19:28.800 or the early two thousands. I honestly can't remember when 1:19:28.920 --> 1:19:31.720 I tried to look it up, but whenever you trying 1:19:31.720 --> 1:19:33.760 to search this stuff, just your search results are like 1:19:34.040 --> 1:19:36.640 flooded by stuff around the latest round. What you're going 1:19:36.720 --> 1:19:39.559 to understand is the RCN. It's one hundred and six 1:19:39.680 --> 1:19:44.360 years old. It only became a union though about fifty 1:19:44.439 --> 1:19:48.840 years ago. So the RCN is both the union and 1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:53.519 a professional body in that Okay, it also does stuff 1:19:53.560 --> 1:19:59.360 around developed, developed the nursing best practice research and that 1:19:59.560 --> 1:20:02.080 kind of thing, and that's what it existed as originally. 1:20:02.800 --> 1:20:07.400 So yeah, like a like a professional association, Yeah, okay, exactly, 1:20:07.439 --> 1:20:10.720 And so it still has a dual structure of its 1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:15.040 union side, it's professional body side that like develops nursing 1:20:15.080 --> 1:20:18.000 practice and stuff like that. Yeah, well I guess, I guess. 1:20:18.000 --> 1:20:20.240 I guess that that raises the sort of question of like, 1:20:20.640 --> 1:20:25.120 like what was so like unbelievably like what what what 1:20:25.120 --> 1:20:29.400 what happened like such that for the first time in 1:20:29.439 --> 1:20:32.040 like one hundred and whatever years they finally went on strike. 1:20:32.720 --> 1:20:36.559 So it's partially a matter of breaking points. The nursing 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:41.280 turnover in the UK's absolute dog shit. Um, thousands of 1:20:41.280 --> 1:20:44.960 people leave the profession every year. There's this massive pay 1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:47.040 cut that's happened over the last ten years. Nurse and 1:20:47.160 --> 1:20:50.639 nursing was always underpaid in the UK. To be frank 1:20:52.320 --> 1:20:55.160 there's also then there was the cut in the nursing 1:20:55.200 --> 1:20:59.720 bursary about five years ago. So it used to be 1:20:59.760 --> 1:21:02.280 the government would pay for you to train as a nurse. 1:21:03.240 --> 1:21:07.439 It would also give you not not not like enough 1:21:07.439 --> 1:21:09.040 to be equivalent of the ways of the work you 1:21:09.080 --> 1:21:12.040 were doing. Nursing in the UK has a far higher 1:21:12.080 --> 1:21:14.760 amount of practice hours than it does in the US. 1:21:14.800 --> 1:21:16.439 I believe it's part of the degree and like a 1:21:16.439 --> 1:21:19.439 lot of that time you're sensibly working as a as 1:21:19.479 --> 1:21:24.040 a hate c A or CNA as you'd say in America. 1:21:24.240 --> 1:21:27.200 Can you explain what that is for people who don't 1:21:27.240 --> 1:21:32.000 know like medical stuff, so hate a healthcare systet or 1:21:33.640 --> 1:21:36.960 what was it CNA certified nursing assistant. I think what 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:43.600 stands for is essentially a healthcare worker who does a 1:21:43.720 --> 1:21:46.599 range of like what you describe as nursing tasks button 1:21:47.439 --> 1:21:53.200 but not the role of a registered nurse. So they 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:59.880 would assist with mobilizing patients, monitoring observations, hygiene, potentially taking blood, 1:22:00.240 --> 1:22:03.160 and some investigations such as setting up an ECG, but 1:22:03.200 --> 1:22:07.960 they wouldn't do more advanced investigations ristanizement, care planning, medication management, 1:22:09.240 --> 1:22:13.000 assessing of patients and that kind of stuff. So yeah, 1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:15.719 like about five years ago, the nursing bursary was cut, 1:22:16.240 --> 1:22:19.200 so then it's became as with every other degree having 1:22:19.240 --> 1:22:22.280 to take out a student loan in order to pursue it. 1:22:23.400 --> 1:22:27.640 And then in twenty eighteen there was a particularly disastrous 1:22:27.680 --> 1:22:30.839 pay deal where the RCM in a number of ways 1:22:30.840 --> 1:22:34.280 just absolutely fun. Not just the RCM, the other healthcare 1:22:34.400 --> 1:22:39.200 unions representing unions representing healthcare workers also messed up hugely, 1:22:40.520 --> 1:22:44.599 but like they really fumbled the ball. It resulted arguably 1:22:44.640 --> 1:22:48.000 some people describe it as the leadership setting up the membership. 1:22:49.400 --> 1:22:53.799 And then after that there was a general an emergency 1:22:53.840 --> 1:22:57.479 general meeting called the RCM. What's resulted in the entire 1:22:57.520 --> 1:23:03.479 executive being booted. Wow, And around this type leading up 1:23:03.479 --> 1:23:08.160 to that, they're being like increasing like grassroots militancy around 1:23:08.400 --> 1:23:11.720 nurses recognizing that this was an awful situation we were 1:23:11.760 --> 1:23:17.240 in there. This also then resulted in like there were 1:23:17.320 --> 1:23:22.200 various grassroots campaigns started such as like a Nurses United UK. 1:23:22.560 --> 1:23:26.720 We started employing organizing the UK to like act to 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:28.960 take nurses. There was a concerted effort to put pressure 1:23:29.040 --> 1:23:31.759 on the RCM by like I would say, a radical minority, 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:36.759 but one that represented like a genuine, genuine feeling among 1:23:36.840 --> 1:23:39.960 nurses on the front line to push for the RCN 1:23:39.960 --> 1:23:43.000 to take a more radical stance. Then at the same time, 1:23:43.240 --> 1:23:45.920 I don't know if this was covered in your talk 1:23:46.120 --> 1:23:49.599 in about English politics you're like to our deep dive, 1:23:50.240 --> 1:23:56.759 But Northern I didn't have a government at this point 1:23:57.280 --> 1:24:00.160 because as they are now, the DUP and shin Fain 1:24:00.240 --> 1:24:04.840 had fallen out and legally it has to be both 1:24:04.840 --> 1:24:07.759 of them together as the largest republican and largest unionist 1:24:07.800 --> 1:24:11.679 party Unionists in pro the United Kingdom Party after form 1:24:11.680 --> 1:24:16.639 of government, which meant it was impossible legally for any 1:24:17.479 --> 1:24:19.759 for any pay rise in the NHS in Northern Ireland 1:24:19.760 --> 1:24:22.280 at that time. So there was not a government that 1:24:22.320 --> 1:24:27.800 could legally enact one great and this was and this 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:34.200 resulted in the twenty nineteen the first strikes by the 1:24:34.320 --> 1:24:38.720 RCN ever and also like the first nursing strikes in 1:24:38.760 --> 1:24:41.000 the NHS in a very long time. I might be 1:24:41.040 --> 1:24:42.800 wrong about this. I think the last ones were like 1:24:42.800 --> 1:24:45.040 in the eighties or the seventies. I might I might 1:24:45.080 --> 1:24:48.000 be wrong about this though, And this was both called 1:24:48.000 --> 1:24:50.840 by the RCN and one of the other biggest trade 1:24:50.920 --> 1:24:54.760 unions in the probably the biggest trade union as it's 1:24:54.800 --> 1:24:58.400 a generalist trade union in the NHS Unison. They both 1:24:58.439 --> 1:25:00.759 called strikes at this time and they were magnificant factor 1:25:01.280 --> 1:25:06.679 in getting the Northern Ireland government back meeting alongside other things. 1:25:06.720 --> 1:25:08.400 I'm not going to give ourselves all the credit, but 1:25:08.439 --> 1:25:10.640 it was a significant factor. It off it gets overlooked 1:25:10.840 --> 1:25:13.160 and actually having any pay rise and acted at all 1:25:13.280 --> 1:25:16.160 on the in Northern Ireland. Just to clear for every 1:25:16.200 --> 1:25:19.400 second this this strike was a specifically like a strict 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:21.960 that was happening for nurses in Northern Ireland. Yeah, in 1:25:21.960 --> 1:25:25.120 twenty nineteen. I think it's very important. I think that 1:25:25.800 --> 1:25:28.600 triggered something of a sea change in the RCNA. That 1:25:28.640 --> 1:25:31.920 was kind of the culminating point of like trying to 1:25:31.920 --> 1:25:36.240 push for a more militant attitude on the RCN, and 1:25:36.320 --> 1:25:38.720 it really like wrote the thug gates open and made 1:25:38.720 --> 1:25:42.200 what's happening now possible. Even though a lot of nurses 1:25:42.680 --> 1:25:46.240 in England particularly I can't come on the situation in 1:25:46.320 --> 1:25:48.400 Wales and Northern Ireland, like how much people know about 1:25:48.479 --> 1:25:50.720 you about what was going on, But like a lot 1:25:50.720 --> 1:25:52.880 of nurse in England didn't even know about it. And 1:25:52.920 --> 1:25:55.479 when I was going around the wards pushing for people 1:25:55.479 --> 1:25:58.120 to vote in favor of the strike action, a lot 1:25:58.120 --> 1:26:01.080 of people didn't weren't aware that that would been a 1:26:01.120 --> 1:26:02.920 thing that had happened until I told them about it. 1:26:03.760 --> 1:26:07.680 Because people in England, as must as England is determined 1:26:07.720 --> 1:26:11.439 to keep Northern Ireland, don't know what's going on, not 1:26:11.600 --> 1:26:14.960 in to any degree, to a terrifying degree. Sometimes I 1:26:14.960 --> 1:26:19.040 would say, yeah, that that sounds like that sounds like 1:26:19.479 --> 1:26:22.240 a thing that happens when you're a colonial power, et cetera, 1:26:22.280 --> 1:26:25.800 et cetera. Well, like I mean like like there was 1:26:26.280 --> 1:26:29.080 I feel like, well, our equivalent isn't the right term. 1:26:29.120 --> 1:26:31.920 But like around the same time, like people in Puerto 1:26:32.000 --> 1:26:34.320 Rico like ran out their government and almost no one 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:38.000 in the US, like like in the commental US has 1:26:38.000 --> 1:26:44.519 like ever heard of it. So yeah, yeah, I would 1:26:44.560 --> 1:26:48.120 say if yeah, if there's not forms going off in 1:26:48.160 --> 1:26:52.960 Northern Ireland, people in England aren't paying attention, I would say, yeah, 1:26:53.000 --> 1:26:56.559 that makes sense. It is also really depressing. Yeah, I 1:26:56.560 --> 1:26:59.000 would like I would say Northern Irelands in the sub 1:26:59.160 --> 1:27:01.120 maybe in some ways of bets an in Puerto Rico 1:27:01.200 --> 1:27:05.080 in that it actually has a degree of political representation 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:08.479 in the main in the Westminster and starts, even though 1:27:09.560 --> 1:27:14.760 it obviously should have its independence and might. But yeah, 1:27:13.960 --> 1:27:17.559 HBO doesn't even have that as my understanding. Yeah, And 1:27:17.600 --> 1:27:20.920 I mean there's a whole there's a there's a whole 1:27:20.960 --> 1:27:23.240 thing there, Like the Puerto Rican statehood people are like 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:28.000 weird reactionaries. The independence people are cooler. But also there's 1:27:28.040 --> 1:27:31.000 this whole sort of I don't know, there's there's a 1:27:31.120 --> 1:27:35.680 kind of like there's a kind of paralysis anywhere. It's 1:27:35.720 --> 1:27:39.000 like that, And it's like DC is kind of similar, 1:27:39.520 --> 1:27:40.920 where there's this whole sort of there's this kind of 1:27:40.920 --> 1:27:43.519 paralysis where like nothing's ever going to be done about 1:27:43.520 --> 1:27:46.960 it other than the US just like basically imposing whatever 1:27:47.040 --> 1:27:50.360 random colonial governor that they've decided to bring in as 1:27:50.360 --> 1:27:52.920 an emergency manager or whatever. Yes, sorrykay, but we are 1:27:52.920 --> 1:27:55.400 getting we are getting far afield from it as I 1:27:55.520 --> 1:27:58.080 want to start before I put my foot in it. Yeah, 1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:03.519 something about Norman on the whole pistol everyone, Yeah, it's 1:28:03.600 --> 1:28:06.960 like I didn't even know even less about Bull's got 1:28:07.080 --> 1:28:13.360 about Puerto Rico. Yeah, yeah, I would also say, okay, 1:28:13.520 --> 1:28:16.439 like so so so people don't get mad at me, 1:28:16.920 --> 1:28:20.040 like all of the US is a quality. It's the 1:28:20.200 --> 1:28:24.520 like the substitute of difference between New York and Hawaii 1:28:24.520 --> 1:28:27.160 and Puerto Rico was when like when when we took 1:28:27.200 --> 1:28:31.800 it over. But yeah, yeah, okay, so what we're we're turning, 1:28:31.840 --> 1:28:33.920 We're turning actually, well you know, okay, all right, I 1:28:34.479 --> 1:28:36.559 will I will take this complete interruption of the flows 1:28:36.680 --> 1:28:39.479 as a point to do an ad break. So do 1:28:39.479 --> 1:28:41.880 you know what else is an extensive colonial power that 1:28:42.520 --> 1:28:48.120 who's might cannot be checked. It's it's the products and 1:28:48.200 --> 1:28:53.960 services that support this podcast. Yea, all right and we 1:28:54.000 --> 1:28:57.040 are back. Yeah. So I wanted to move from the 1:28:57.040 --> 1:28:59.080 Northern Ireland strikes to talk about the sort of broader 1:28:59.080 --> 1:29:01.840 strikes that I've been happen in the last like my 1:29:01.880 --> 1:29:06.160 understanding about a year or so, yes, okay, yeah, yeah 1:29:06.240 --> 1:29:08.519 it is is it picul go longer than that? Yeah? 1:29:08.920 --> 1:29:10.439 I would you talk about like that? It's like what 1:29:10.920 --> 1:29:14.040 happened to move from the Northern Ireland strikes to the 1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:18.879 current situation so do you mean with specifically NHS strikes 1:29:19.080 --> 1:29:24.320 or like one in the UK specifically with the NHS strikes. 1:29:24.320 --> 1:29:25.800 But I guess we can talk about the broader way 1:29:25.960 --> 1:29:32.679 you want you or two. So obviously all the ship 1:29:32.760 --> 1:29:36.439 with COVID happened. Yeah, and then we came to the 1:29:36.479 --> 1:29:39.360 payoffer of last year. And at this point they've been 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:43.360 general building of an attitude that we don't just need 1:29:43.400 --> 1:29:45.240 a decent pay guys that keeps up inflation, we need 1:29:45.320 --> 1:29:51.640 one that goes towards restoring loss to pay. And the 1:29:51.800 --> 1:29:57.920 RCM leadership after the kicking out of the entire executive 1:29:57.960 --> 1:30:01.400 in twenty eighteen kind of on the back foot, kind 1:30:01.400 --> 1:30:04.080 of like wanting to appiece the membership go along with 1:30:04.080 --> 1:30:07.360 it a bit more. Also, we had knew General Secretary 1:30:07.439 --> 1:30:10.120 Pat Collin, who was the Secretary of the Northern Ireland 1:30:10.400 --> 1:30:16.719 SEC of the RCN during the Northern Island strikes, took 1:30:16.760 --> 1:30:19.960 a more militant position in the pain negotiation in the 1:30:20.120 --> 1:30:23.559 Joint Union pain negotiations with the government towards the end 1:30:23.680 --> 1:30:27.760 towards the beginning of last year, where the RCN took 1:30:27.800 --> 1:30:35.240 a position of we need inflation plus five percent. Now 1:30:36.600 --> 1:30:39.600 this is a bit of inside baseball, which like I 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:41.760 don't think I've ever seen officially, but what I know 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:45.160 from various people involved in these things and like statements 1:30:45.160 --> 1:30:47.719 by different unions, what my understanding it is the biggest 1:30:47.760 --> 1:30:50.840 of the trade unions in the NHS in general. The 1:30:51.080 --> 1:30:55.519 Unison put forward line it was only willing to go 1:30:55.640 --> 1:31:00.880 for a generic significantly better than inflation paid back like 1:31:01.160 --> 1:31:06.240 pay demand from the government, which the RCM was due 1:31:06.320 --> 1:31:08.639 to like changing attitude of its membership. What happened when 1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:11.240 it accepted ship a bad deal last time, was not 1:31:11.320 --> 1:31:14.679 willing to go for a result of the RCM splitting 1:31:15.080 --> 1:31:18.760 from the Joint Union Like Pay Council like the Joint 1:31:18.800 --> 1:31:25.000 Union Council over this issue, which then the offer the 1:31:25.000 --> 1:31:28.479 government's pay thing came in. It said we will do 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:34.400 a flat one thousand, four hundred for everyone, like on 1:31:34.439 --> 1:31:37.320 all bands, so not a percentage like it normally does. 1:31:37.720 --> 1:31:39.080 And you know, to be honest, if it was a 1:31:39.120 --> 1:31:41.760 significantly higher amount that was better, bigger than inflation for 1:31:41.800 --> 1:31:44.719 the lower bands, like the lower page works in the NHS, 1:31:45.680 --> 1:31:47.680 wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But this 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:51.840 one thousand, four hundred isn't good enough for anyone and 1:31:52.720 --> 1:31:55.360 while I'm talking about this, I'm talking about specifically in England. 1:31:56.080 --> 1:31:59.000 It was slightly different in Wales and Scotland. I think 1:31:59.120 --> 1:32:01.599 generally slightly better, but it's still far lower than it 1:32:01.640 --> 1:32:04.760 should have been, than it needs to be. And so 1:32:04.880 --> 1:32:08.720 the RCM was the first of the any unions in 1:32:08.760 --> 1:32:10.720 the NHS to say it was balloting, it was doing 1:32:10.720 --> 1:32:16.519 a paid ballot, and this kind of sprung on the 1:32:16.560 --> 1:32:20.040 other unions like a week, two weeks, three weeks later 1:32:20.120 --> 1:32:23.280 all said that they were doing it as well. The 1:32:23.400 --> 1:32:26.920 RCM also, at the same time hired a load of 1:32:27.200 --> 1:32:30.960 organized like paid organizers to support the paid ballot effort. 1:32:31.840 --> 1:32:35.960 And what I'll say is obviously paid organizers. There no 1:32:36.000 --> 1:32:42.120 substitute for rank and file militancy. But it was very helpful, 1:32:42.160 --> 1:32:44.479 to be honest, because I think there was a lot 1:32:44.479 --> 1:32:48.160 of like militan, a lot of militant sentiment of the RCM. 1:32:48.240 --> 1:32:52.800 But although there were some like rank and file initiatives 1:32:52.960 --> 1:32:55.280 which had had a massive impact on like pushing the 1:32:55.400 --> 1:33:00.120 RCM to a stronger position, I don't I don't think 1:33:00.120 --> 1:33:02.240 that could have materialized, and there wasn't enough people like 1:33:02.280 --> 1:33:05.320 actually who had an idea about organizing about what it 1:33:05.320 --> 1:33:06.880 meant to go and push through this kind of thing 1:33:07.040 --> 1:33:09.439 to get what we needed in that time frame. Sadly 1:33:09.880 --> 1:33:12.639 I wish that wasn't the case, but I do think 1:33:12.680 --> 1:33:15.559 these paid organizers much is not what I think the 1:33:15.600 --> 1:33:18.639 correcting model for workplace organizing is. Did help a lot, 1:33:20.840 --> 1:33:24.519 and this then resulted in the RCM strike ballot passing 1:33:24.560 --> 1:33:29.000 in one hundred and seventy six NHS trusts across the UK. 1:33:30.560 --> 1:33:36.280 Let me just yeah, check that I've got that right, yeah, 1:33:36.760 --> 1:33:41.120 which is huge. It's not all, but it is. It's 1:33:41.160 --> 1:33:47.080 over fifty percent. It's pretty much all trusts in Scotland, 1:33:47.640 --> 1:33:50.599 all trust in Scotland, all trusts in Northern Ireland, I think, 1:33:50.640 --> 1:33:54.960 all by one or two in Wales, and the majority 1:33:55.000 --> 1:33:59.360 in England. It's also worth pointing out the ones that 1:33:59.400 --> 1:34:05.000 didn't pass it. They didn't pass by less than a percentage. Wow, 1:34:05.120 --> 1:34:09.480 they they didn't pass by like ten votes in all cases. 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:12.240 I think the one in Wales that didn't pass it 1:34:12.280 --> 1:34:16.360 was literally by three votes. And it's also worked. I 1:34:16.400 --> 1:34:20.080 think in two thousand and sixteen or two fifteen, anti 1:34:20.200 --> 1:34:23.719 union legislation was passed by the Conservative government which raised 1:34:23.720 --> 1:34:27.280 the bar you need in order to have to have 1:34:27.439 --> 1:34:33.640 legal strike industrial action, and under the law as it 1:34:33.720 --> 1:34:37.280 existed a decade ago, every NHS trust that the RCM 1:34:37.320 --> 1:34:44.799 ballot didn't would have passed the ballot. Also unfortunate timing. 1:34:45.439 --> 1:34:47.240 It was happening at the same time as the posts, 1:34:47.320 --> 1:34:52.080 as postal strikes were happening, and in the UK industrial 1:34:52.320 --> 1:34:55.120 ballots for industrial actions to be legal have to happen 1:34:55.160 --> 1:35:06.120 by post. A little bit sad. Yeah, it's like guys, yeah, 1:35:06.800 --> 1:35:11.560 full power two of you. Oh God, I wish the 1:35:11.600 --> 1:35:16.160 timing had been slightly different. Yeah. Yeah. And of all 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:19.320 the of all the trust, of all the unions in 1:35:19.360 --> 1:35:22.439 the in the NHS that were passing ballots, the RCM 1:35:22.520 --> 1:35:26.040 was the most successful. We passed it in significantly more 1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:30.560 places than other unions did. Um to my shock, to 1:35:30.600 --> 1:35:33.040 be honest, because like when I was going around balloting 1:35:33.680 --> 1:35:36.519 or like um talking to people, like on my days off, 1:35:36.640 --> 1:35:39.000 like going on the wards talking talk to people while 1:35:39.000 --> 1:35:41.680 I was at work, everyone was like, yes it was 1:35:41.720 --> 1:35:44.240 in other unions like yes, I'm voting for it. I'm 1:35:44.280 --> 1:35:46.840 waiting on tender hicks, have my ballot. When's my ballot arriving? 1:35:46.840 --> 1:35:50.720 Why is my union not opened their ballot? Yet and 1:35:50.840 --> 1:35:55.160 so like when particularly like other unions didn't pass in 1:35:55.200 --> 1:35:58.560 my trust, I was really shocked. I was really confused, 1:36:00.000 --> 1:36:03.679 and it seems like a lot of them didn't actually 1:36:03.720 --> 1:36:07.000 want to fight to a degree in that like they 1:36:07.040 --> 1:36:10.040 were opening it because the RCN had opened it. I'm 1:36:10.040 --> 1:36:12.200 certain people in those unions might discrib me, but that's 1:36:12.240 --> 1:36:15.080 really I find it really hard to understand how these 1:36:15.160 --> 1:36:18.200 unions that have historically they're all none of them are 1:36:18.200 --> 1:36:20.559 that that militant, you know, but they all have a 1:36:20.640 --> 1:36:23.960 history of strikes and other sectors or organizing for this. 1:36:24.040 --> 1:36:27.719 They'd never had been anti strike unions unis in particular. 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:32.600 It was there came about like several unions being collamorated, 1:36:32.760 --> 1:36:37.599 like joining together, including unions that have been founded by 1:36:37.680 --> 1:36:42.920 nurses in the seventies in reacting to like the RCM 1:36:43.040 --> 1:36:46.320 being anti strike and going on like that was the 1:36:46.400 --> 1:36:48.840 last big wave of nursing strikes at that time. So 1:36:48.880 --> 1:36:52.080 that really shocked me. This has been It can happen here. 1:36:52.160 --> 1:36:54.479 I join us tomorrow for approchu of the interview, and 1:36:54.760 --> 1:36:57.120 in the meantime you can find us on Twitter and Instagram. 1:36:57.160 --> 1:36:59.680 That happened here a pod and you can find us 1:36:59.720 --> 1:37:17.080 Twitter and Instagram at call Zone Media. Welcome to it 1:37:17.160 --> 1:37:21.439 can happen here a podcast increasingly about nurses strikes and yeah, 1:37:21.479 --> 1:37:23.320 this is part two of our inter of you with Nick, 1:37:23.439 --> 1:37:27.400 a nurse in the UK. Enjoy. We've entered the tafty 1:37:27.439 --> 1:37:29.840 turfy land where the RCNC used to be the people 1:37:29.880 --> 1:37:31.800 who are like leading on the militancy in this in 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:35.080 this front where yeah, yeah, and I think part of 1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:37.920 it comes down to us because the RCM was historically 1:37:38.800 --> 1:37:41.320 a sneaking part city was not a union, became a 1:37:41.439 --> 1:37:43.360 union later in the day for then eight was for 1:37:43.479 --> 1:37:48.600 ages anti strike. A lot of unions because like we 1:37:48.640 --> 1:37:50.839 could talk about the John critique of unions and particularly 1:37:50.840 --> 1:37:55.639 like institutional unions, how they service providers, how they build 1:37:55.760 --> 1:38:01.240 up like a protective bureaucracy against merchants ruggle or against 1:38:01.280 --> 1:38:06.200 like glass roots militancy. Then it's not a particularly democratic 1:38:06.240 --> 1:38:09.000 as these things go, but it doesn't have that kind 1:38:09.000 --> 1:38:11.880 of built up institutional inertia in the trade union side 1:38:12.240 --> 1:38:15.680 because historically hasn't needed it. And that meant I think 1:38:15.680 --> 1:38:19.879 it was actually far more susceptible. It's two grassroots pressure 1:38:19.880 --> 1:38:25.000 and militancy then some of the other more established unions 1:38:25.040 --> 1:38:31.160 were and that's sorry no, and that kind of like 1:38:31.720 --> 1:38:33.519 was the thin end of the webs for the rcenter 1:38:33.520 --> 1:38:36.760 takers boastrong stance over the pay rise in response to 1:38:36.840 --> 1:38:40.000 like glass roots organizing and like a demand from the 1:38:40.000 --> 1:38:42.680 grassroots to do that, which then results in them like 1:38:42.720 --> 1:38:45.360 bad tip strike action first, which then meant other unions 1:38:45.560 --> 1:38:49.800 had to and then we got the and then the 1:38:49.840 --> 1:38:54.240 cascade of like strikes in the NHS have occurred since then. 1:38:56.720 --> 1:39:02.040 So this this is a very very broad question to 1:39:02.080 --> 1:39:11.160 be asking, But how have the strikes been going. That's 1:39:11.320 --> 1:39:17.559 kind of a difficult one to say. So Scotland, for instance, 1:39:17.760 --> 1:39:19.920 has not been called out, has not actually had any 1:39:19.920 --> 1:39:23.280 strike dage because the Scottish government went into negotiations to 1:39:23.280 --> 1:39:26.760 begin with and then made an offer, it was rejected, 1:39:27.200 --> 1:39:30.000 strikes were announced, they made another, agreed to come back 1:39:30.000 --> 1:39:33.479 to negotiations. So like it's been effective been getting something 1:39:33.520 --> 1:39:36.840 moving in Scotland. Their current offer of fifteen percent over 1:39:36.880 --> 1:39:40.320 two years, so six something this year, five something next 1:39:40.400 --> 1:39:44.799 year is currently being voted on by the RCA membership. 1:39:44.920 --> 1:39:48.120 It's not it's not a good but it's a significant 1:39:48.120 --> 1:39:52.679 movement of what came before. Wales the Welsh government after 1:39:52.720 --> 1:39:55.880 saying no, we can't have any more money. We can't 1:39:55.920 --> 1:39:59.960 we literally cart because Westminster controls our budget. Westminster work 1:40:00.080 --> 1:40:02.920 give us any more budget for this has now made 1:40:02.920 --> 1:40:08.280 an improved, an improved offer. It's crap, but it's like 1:40:08.600 --> 1:40:10.960 something it's foresome to shift when they were claiming it 1:40:11.040 --> 1:40:13.519 was physically impossible for them to do it, which every 1:40:13.600 --> 1:40:17.120 single time, Like I can think of exactly one time 1:40:17.280 --> 1:40:19.920 ever where I've seen an employer make that demand and 1:40:19.960 --> 1:40:22.920 it was actually true. But this is not like that. 1:40:23.080 --> 1:40:25.760 That was that was like what Norfolk Southern in like 1:40:26.800 --> 1:40:29.400 like the nineteen seventies, and it's it was only true 1:40:29.479 --> 1:40:31.840 once and it's never been true ever since then. Like 1:40:32.640 --> 1:40:34.880 you will hear this from every fucking employer who you 1:40:34.920 --> 1:40:36.840 attempt to go on track against, and they're always lying, 1:40:37.640 --> 1:40:40.680 like every single time. What I will say is like 1:40:41.040 --> 1:40:43.360 in the case of Wales, it is very true. The 1:40:43.400 --> 1:40:47.479 Welsh Government's budget is set by Westminster, by the central government. 1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:50.760 So it's a lie, but it's a plausible lie. Yeah, 1:40:51.000 --> 1:40:54.880 And Wales is generally massively Wales is like some of 1:40:54.880 --> 1:40:58.400 the highest rates of child poverty outside of Eastern Europe. 1:40:58.479 --> 1:41:02.360 In Europe, the reasons. Part of the reasons for this 1:41:02.520 --> 1:41:05.719 is because the Welsh government is chronically underfunded. Yeah, yeah, 1:41:06.240 --> 1:41:09.639 due to political decisions made in England, but it's still 1:41:11.160 --> 1:41:16.040 not true. And then in England, right, it's got to 1:41:16.120 --> 1:41:19.720 the point where a government who are categorically opposed to 1:41:19.760 --> 1:41:23.439 any negotiations with trade unions have actually come to the 1:41:23.479 --> 1:41:26.960 negotiating tables. So from that, although a suspectible loads of 1:41:27.000 --> 1:41:30.559 preconditions that haven't been publicly talked about, and they're going 1:41:30.640 --> 1:41:32.720 to not make a credible offer in my view and 1:41:32.760 --> 1:41:34.960 as a stalling tactic, but the fact they even chose 1:41:35.560 --> 1:41:38.320 to come to the table atol. I hate saying this 1:41:38.479 --> 1:41:39.880 because it makes it's the kind of thing that makes 1:41:39.880 --> 1:41:42.920 people complace ship. But that is actually quite big that 1:41:43.040 --> 1:41:46.160 the Conservative government actually agreed to do it, to come 1:41:46.200 --> 1:41:49.599 to negotiating table. Stopped hiding behind oh there's an independent 1:41:49.680 --> 1:41:53.920 paybody that decides these things. Stop saying it's we can't 1:41:53.960 --> 1:41:55.840 afford to fund the NHS anymore. Actually just coming and 1:41:55.880 --> 1:41:59.120 sitting at the table atoll to negotiate. It's like a 1:41:59.160 --> 1:42:02.639 big movement of itself. Now, if we talk about numbers 1:42:02.680 --> 1:42:10.880 of participation in strikes, there's been a lot of difficulties, 1:42:11.040 --> 1:42:14.600 a lot of nowhere near as many people have participated 1:42:14.640 --> 1:42:17.400 into strikes as should have been. I will be frank 1:42:17.439 --> 1:42:20.400 and say so now we're going to talk about the delegations, 1:42:20.640 --> 1:42:24.519 the situation delegations, which is like the RCN voluntarily saying 1:42:24.920 --> 1:42:27.599 we will allow this many people to continue working day 1:42:27.720 --> 1:42:31.000 these days and these areas in order to maintain patient safety, 1:42:31.680 --> 1:42:34.559 which is, on one hand, we don't want any patients 1:42:34.600 --> 1:42:37.320 to die obviously. On the other hand, it's a very 1:42:37.400 --> 1:42:41.120 easily abused stance to take. And there are just nurses 1:42:41.160 --> 1:42:44.360 who are in other trade unions who who aren't a 1:42:44.439 --> 1:42:48.160 trade unions as well, and ultimately, if they want that 1:42:48.280 --> 1:42:50.320 not to happen, they need to just come to the 1:42:50.400 --> 1:42:53.760 table earlier. And so this result in a process where 1:42:55.120 --> 1:43:00.880 so I to you, and like time sensitive chemo and 1:43:01.360 --> 1:43:06.200 pediatric A and e'es were derogated by default, and then 1:43:06.240 --> 1:43:11.320 there was an agreement of if the wards had less 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:16.080 than like nighttime numbers, we would agree for a small 1:43:16.080 --> 1:43:20.800 amount of our of our membership to go in to 1:43:21.000 --> 1:43:24.560 work on those wards to maintain nighttime numbers for the 1:43:24.640 --> 1:43:27.439 sake of patients safety. But that had to be applied 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:32.320 for them on a case by case bas basis. But 1:43:34.520 --> 1:43:36.880 there's a couple of problems with this one. Trust just 1:43:37.000 --> 1:43:40.280 not taking it seriously, lying and not trying to establish 1:43:40.360 --> 1:43:44.439 these things to make accurate requests, leaving it to the 1:43:44.520 --> 1:43:47.120 last minute, and then asking for blanket derogations. We don't 1:43:47.160 --> 1:43:49.640 know if it's going to be safe or not. Managers 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:52.240 like ward managers not actually knowing what was agreed and 1:43:52.360 --> 1:43:55.400 to giving incorrect information to their staff, people not understanding 1:43:55.439 --> 1:43:58.640 what was and wasn't derogated, And just generally it was 1:43:58.680 --> 1:44:02.200 a system that was very open abuse and so like 1:44:03.080 --> 1:44:07.880 a lot of a lot of things were just left 1:44:07.960 --> 1:44:11.840 open in general or like that shouldn't have been. But 1:44:11.920 --> 1:44:16.639 at the same time, I know that it didn't happen 1:44:16.640 --> 1:44:19.160 in every case, but like there was a lot of 1:44:19.240 --> 1:44:21.840 success in like going memps, the strike committee going around 1:44:21.920 --> 1:44:24.080 wards and saying no, you're over number, you need to 1:44:24.120 --> 1:44:29.400 come out, and people doing it. Of like surgeries being canceled, 1:44:29.560 --> 1:44:32.880 like elective surgeries, nontime sensitive surgeries being canceled due to it, 1:44:33.680 --> 1:44:36.880 of like really making hospital managers sweat over like proving 1:44:37.040 --> 1:44:39.720 each thing needed to happen, they wanted and needed to 1:44:39.720 --> 1:44:42.640 happen those days. All of it's built up. Even if 1:44:42.640 --> 1:44:44.320 we didn't get the full amount of people we should 1:44:44.360 --> 1:44:46.920 have had out on strike, on strike really built up 1:44:46.960 --> 1:44:50.519 the pressure significant degrees on them to them, put the 1:44:50.600 --> 1:44:54.120 pressure up the chain of the NHS to the governments, 1:44:54.120 --> 1:44:55.880 like we can't keep on going on like this. And 1:44:56.000 --> 1:45:00.160 at the same time each set of strikes, the where 1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:04.800 people participating did increase, so like for instance, I've just 1:45:04.880 --> 1:45:12.160 got the government statistics from that the fifteenth of December, 1:45:12.200 --> 1:45:14.759 I think it is, so this was the first strike 1:45:14.880 --> 1:45:20.880 day that was called. It was nine thousand, nine hundred 1:45:20.880 --> 1:45:25.160 and ninety nine absences due to industrial action. Then on 1:45:25.240 --> 1:45:28.439 the twentieth it was eleven thousand, five hundred and nine. 1:45:29.800 --> 1:45:33.560 Then on the eighteenth and nineteenth of January, and just 1:45:34.400 --> 1:45:37.720 one important fact that they didn't call all hospitals out 1:45:37.760 --> 1:45:41.760 at once again I think a mistatus. Strategic mistakes should 1:45:41.760 --> 1:45:45.080 have gone hard, gone hard fast. But the ivory was 1:45:45.200 --> 1:45:47.800 we just we don't have the facilities to organize all 1:45:47.840 --> 1:45:51.320 of this effectively on all of these last amounts, because 1:45:51.320 --> 1:45:54.240 like it was a huge amount of trusts they needed 1:45:54.280 --> 1:45:57.120 to do that with. But then on those days it 1:45:57.240 --> 1:46:02.519 was then eleven thousand, three hundred and sixty three and 1:46:02.640 --> 1:46:05.080 eleven thousand, two hundred and nineteen across those two days. 1:46:05.439 --> 1:46:11.320 Then in February it was fifteen thousand, nine hundred ninety eight, 1:46:11.760 --> 1:46:16.519 and then I'm fourteen on the second day, fourteen thousand 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:21.040 and then fifty eight people, which is far lower than 1:46:21.080 --> 1:46:23.439 it should have been. I can't remember how many people 1:46:23.520 --> 1:46:25.559 there are nurses are on the NHS, so I should 1:46:25.560 --> 1:46:28.080 have had that statistic relity, but it's not an inconsiderate amount. 1:46:28.120 --> 1:46:30.680 It meant lots about patients appointments being canceled, a lot 1:46:30.680 --> 1:46:34.360 of surgeries being canceled, a lot of chaos and stress 1:46:35.560 --> 1:46:38.280 for managers of the NHS and therefore for the government. 1:46:38.760 --> 1:46:42.040 Are looking really bad for them, And it's a clear 1:46:42.280 --> 1:46:45.559 upwards trajectory, which meant that when they are seeing announced 1:46:45.600 --> 1:46:48.320 we're going to do two days consecutive, we're not. We're 1:46:48.320 --> 1:46:49.600 going to keep it going through the night, which they 1:46:49.640 --> 1:46:53.200 hadn't done previously, and we're not doing derogations. It to you, 1:46:53.840 --> 1:46:56.960 we'll be staffed, nothink, we're not doing anything else. I 1:46:57.040 --> 1:46:59.320 think no, even it tou wasn't staffed. We'd considered on 1:46:59.400 --> 1:47:01.280 a case by case spaceis we won't be considered what 1:47:01.840 --> 1:47:07.360 sorry intensive care? I see you for America? Okay yeah. Um. 1:47:07.479 --> 1:47:11.439 So that meant that at that point the government prob like, okay, 1:47:11.520 --> 1:47:13.479 we need to move to a new delaying tactic. They're 1:47:13.520 --> 1:47:18.320 not just going to give up. And I think with that, 1:47:18.520 --> 1:47:21.800 as it went on, like people were itching an itching 1:47:21.840 --> 1:47:26.160 to go further. And so for instance, like A and 1:47:26.240 --> 1:47:30.160 E was derogated, So which is the area I work in? 1:47:31.040 --> 1:47:34.120 But like a lot of people and this is reflective 1:47:34.160 --> 1:47:36.559 of like most areas that were derogated. When I spoke 1:47:36.640 --> 1:47:38.680 to people, we weren't them like, no, we need to 1:47:38.760 --> 1:47:41.439 be out, we need to be out the picket line. 1:47:41.720 --> 1:47:44.559 And like after the first two rounds, there was also 1:47:44.640 --> 1:47:47.400 a growing effort to like try and find out from 1:47:47.439 --> 1:47:51.160 the membership what the actual situation was so there on 1:47:51.320 --> 1:47:54.320 like staffing on the wards, because all wards are chronically understaffed. 1:47:54.360 --> 1:47:57.120 So when they said, oh, well we need this are 1:47:57.200 --> 1:47:59.120 people say, no, we know that's alive, we know one 1:47:59.240 --> 1:48:01.800 nights there's that's the only three redisted nurses. There's not 1:48:01.880 --> 1:48:04.320 the four you're claiming, and stuff like that. It's again 1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:06.240 I think it was a really positive move in like 1:48:08.479 --> 1:48:11.960 embedding a kind of like workers inquiry of workers knowledge 1:48:11.960 --> 1:48:15.640 about their workplace into the organizing of the strike that 1:48:15.840 --> 1:48:22.600 had been quite a top down process. But yeah, and 1:48:22.720 --> 1:48:25.880 I'm kind of worried about how this delay and break 1:48:25.960 --> 1:48:28.960 in the strike action will affect that momentum that had 1:48:29.000 --> 1:48:31.920 been building up. I think, like to a large degree, 1:48:32.280 --> 1:48:35.519 people are like itching to go again, and I think 1:48:35.560 --> 1:48:38.559 that desire to go again is building as it goes. 1:48:38.640 --> 1:48:42.000 Like when it initially happened, when this starts initially called off, 1:48:42.360 --> 1:48:45.280 there was a lot of like trust, like in like 1:48:45.400 --> 1:48:47.160 the big WhatsApp groups and stuff and talk to people, 1:48:47.200 --> 1:48:49.640 there was a lot of like people thinking of at 1:48:49.760 --> 1:48:51.719 least I don't know if this was represent general opinion, 1:48:51.720 --> 1:48:53.720 but people being quite vocal a because I know, we 1:48:53.800 --> 1:48:56.000 need to trust like Pat knows what she's doing, they 1:48:56.040 --> 1:48:57.400 wouldn't have called it off of this thing. It's like 1:48:57.640 --> 1:48:59.640 it's getting more and more those people being like, no, 1:49:00.040 --> 1:49:03.120 we need to, we need to go, we need to 1:49:03.640 --> 1:49:05.920 we need to get back on the picket line. And 1:49:06.080 --> 1:49:08.960 there's been a petition that's been going around that's been 1:49:08.960 --> 1:49:11.400 getting quite a bit of news, like setting out some 1:49:11.920 --> 1:49:15.240 hard lines like four to the end R and c 1:49:16.200 --> 1:49:20.400 leadership about what kind of stuff is should accept, like saying, no, 1:49:20.479 --> 1:49:23.000 we need to stick to the above inflation busting, we 1:49:23.080 --> 1:49:24.640 need to not compromise on this, we need to not 1:49:24.720 --> 1:49:27.120 compromising this, which is I think got eight hundred and 1:49:27.240 --> 1:49:30.360 eighty signatures at the moment. It doesn't sound like a 1:49:30.479 --> 1:49:33.880 huge amount, but like again you're going through quite a 1:49:33.880 --> 1:49:36.040 lot of immersial of like attitude of like you've got 1:49:36.120 --> 1:49:38.439 to leave it to the leadership among the membership, even 1:49:38.479 --> 1:49:40.960 when they were unhappy with it. And it's only a 1:49:41.080 --> 1:49:45.960 thousand signatures that are necessary in the RCNS where the 1:49:46.080 --> 1:49:48.320 RCM works to call an extraordinary general meeting, which they 1:49:48.400 --> 1:49:50.519 can do pretty much whatever it wants. And that's how 1:49:50.640 --> 1:49:54.439 the leadership in two and eighteen was kicked out after 1:49:54.520 --> 1:49:58.200 the bad pay deal. Then, But that's really interesting. Yeah, 1:49:58.680 --> 1:50:02.000 so like the RCN very undemocratic except for this one 1:50:02.080 --> 1:50:04.560 particular thing. Yeah, is it Is it a normal thing? That? 1:50:04.800 --> 1:50:06.360 Is it like a normal thing for unions in the 1:50:06.600 --> 1:50:08.400 in the UK? Or is that just like a most 1:50:09.680 --> 1:50:13.519 most I think all unions have an amount of people, 1:50:14.479 --> 1:50:16.960 a set amount where if like memberships calling for an 1:50:17.000 --> 1:50:19.519 extraordinary general meeting, they have to do it. The RCNS 1:50:19.560 --> 1:50:23.400 one is really low interesting essentially, and like there were 1:50:23.479 --> 1:50:25.880 some moves were like people in the r C leads 1:50:25.880 --> 1:50:27.120 to say, oh, we need to change it, we need 1:50:27.160 --> 1:50:29.840 to give into that, we need we need to raise 1:50:29.920 --> 1:50:35.920 it to be more in line with other unions. But 1:50:36.920 --> 1:50:39.160 that again is something that will have to that if 1:50:39.200 --> 1:50:40.880 that does happen, that kind of change we'd have to 1:50:40.920 --> 1:50:44.120 go to like a membership wide vote. It's not something 1:50:44.240 --> 1:50:48.240 the executive leadership could just impose that's good. Yeah, Yeah, 1:50:50.000 --> 1:50:53.479 So like there is a process of like these strikes 1:50:53.560 --> 1:50:58.840 were like a result of like increasing general level of 1:50:59.160 --> 1:51:03.400 militancy were among nurses in general and among NHS workers, 1:51:03.439 --> 1:51:09.120 and I think particularly because everyone knows it's awful the situation, 1:51:09.800 --> 1:51:14.240 and then with like a slightly more organized than spear 1:51:14.320 --> 1:51:18.640 and if they're resulted in that in that petition in 1:51:18.720 --> 1:51:22.400 twenty eighteen arguing for stuff at like congresses and things, 1:51:22.920 --> 1:51:26.880 and then that's what actual strike has like got the 1:51:27.000 --> 1:51:29.960 membership feeling like they should have a more active role. 1:51:30.000 --> 1:51:32.200 And I think it's pushing things in a positive direction, 1:51:32.800 --> 1:51:34.800 even though I think the rc and leaderships has gotten 1:51:34.800 --> 1:51:37.760 to a point where by mistake, it ended up way 1:51:37.760 --> 1:51:39.680 ahead of the other unions and it's now trying to 1:51:39.800 --> 1:51:43.040 bear battle. But I don't I think there's a lot 1:51:43.080 --> 1:51:47.759 of potential for like more grassroots organized by the membership 1:51:47.800 --> 1:51:51.280 to prevent that happening. Yeah. We are in a difficult 1:51:51.320 --> 1:51:53.679 position though that the time is running out. Strike mandates 1:51:53.680 --> 1:51:57.639 in the UK only last for six months. We are 1:52:00.000 --> 1:52:02.600 and the government that Greek negotiations were at two and 1:52:02.640 --> 1:52:05.320 a half months left of the mandate, it's now two 1:52:05.400 --> 1:52:07.360 months left of the mandate. You have to give two 1:52:07.400 --> 1:52:10.960 weeks notice before strike action. Oh so that's that that 1:52:11.160 --> 1:52:13.080 that's that's what to sort of like run out the 1:52:13.120 --> 1:52:17.840 clock strategies about on their side. Okay, that makes sense exactly. Now, 1:52:18.040 --> 1:52:20.599 nothing's to stop us from reballoting. Yeah, but it will 1:52:20.600 --> 1:52:22.360 be a whole process. It has to be a month. 1:52:23.000 --> 1:52:26.320 You have to go through the mail. Yeah, it will 1:52:26.320 --> 1:52:29.760 be drawn out. We'll buy them a lot more time. Yeah, 1:52:33.080 --> 1:52:35.160 that's post. The workers, I think are on strike again 1:52:35.360 --> 1:52:39.479 today too, I think maybe I think so, let me, 1:52:39.600 --> 1:52:42.559 I've got the strike calendar up on my computer. Let's 1:52:42.560 --> 1:52:44.840 see who's on strike and absolutely fraud. I have it 1:52:44.960 --> 1:52:46.560 on my other computer, but I don't have it on 1:52:46.640 --> 1:52:52.480 this one. Yeah, so it shays the fifteen today, Amazon's 1:52:52.479 --> 1:52:57.479 on striking Coventry, the BBC's regil services, the civil service, 1:52:59.160 --> 1:53:03.400 which it would kind of be equivalent to like a 1:53:03.520 --> 1:53:09.960 federal stuff um in America. So like fince, it's my dad, 1:53:10.000 --> 1:53:13.040 who's a health and safety inspector is on strike today, 1:53:14.400 --> 1:53:17.240 h MRC, which is the tax officers on strike, junior 1:53:17.320 --> 1:53:21.400 doctors on strike, offstead. The school has structs on spike strike, 1:53:21.560 --> 1:53:26.719 the l the two main rail unions on strike, teaches 1:53:26.760 --> 1:53:29.400 on strike, and university stuff on strike. Not the postal 1:53:29.479 --> 1:53:33.639 service today. But yeah, yeah, well, I guess I guess 1:53:33.640 --> 1:53:35.719 I wanted to ask a bit about that too, about 1:53:35.800 --> 1:53:37.760 sort of just what what's been happening. I don't know 1:53:37.840 --> 1:53:39.679 what what what you see as sort of the potential 1:53:39.760 --> 1:53:41.719 of the of the broader strikes have been happened, because 1:53:41.760 --> 1:53:44.920 this is this is a I don't know, I mean, 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:48.800 it's not it's not it's not like a like it's 1:53:48.840 --> 1:53:51.360 it's not like a nineteen seventies style like strike wave, 1:53:51.479 --> 1:53:53.960 but it's it's a lot of strikes for the UK 1:53:54.640 --> 1:54:01.200 in the last decade. It's it's big. There isn't the 1:54:01.400 --> 1:54:04.400 level of cross union cooperation and talks that you would want. 1:54:05.320 --> 1:54:07.559 There's a lot of like people turning up to each 1:54:07.600 --> 1:54:11.479 other's picket lines. There's a lot of like solidarity present, 1:54:11.560 --> 1:54:16.240 but it's not coalescing into like a into like a 1:54:17.000 --> 1:54:21.360 unified movement which is hoping to be. Although I do 1:54:21.560 --> 1:54:25.439 think if something doesn't change, it is moving in that direction. 1:54:26.040 --> 1:54:28.400 And like the Conservative government is at like an all 1:54:28.439 --> 1:54:33.680 time loan it's popularity ratings. Yeah, I think. I don't 1:54:33.720 --> 1:54:37.680 know if you're aware from this quote from Margaret that's 1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:41.400 yet about how her main political goal was remaking the 1:54:41.520 --> 1:54:47.360 soul of Britain away because like up until that period 1:54:47.880 --> 1:54:50.120 there was a very strong trade union movement in the 1:54:50.280 --> 1:54:52.920 UK that it had like one of the best social 1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:58.160 democracies in the world, like comparable to Scandinavia today. It 1:54:58.320 --> 1:55:01.840 was it was far more like active attitude in the UK. 1:55:02.040 --> 1:55:04.200 And like Margaret factor is explicit, I kind of the 1:55:04.240 --> 1:55:06.680 exact quote, but explicit project and the project or the 1:55:06.720 --> 1:55:08.680 Conservative Party at the time. Let's not put it all 1:55:08.720 --> 1:55:11.280 on her, great woman theor of histories as bad as 1:55:11.320 --> 1:55:15.920 great man of history to move the soul of the 1:55:16.040 --> 1:55:19.120 like general social attitude and personality of like people in 1:55:19.200 --> 1:55:23.960 Britain away from that like orientations like community and the 1:55:24.040 --> 1:55:28.680 collective struggle and action. And there is a part of 1:55:28.840 --> 1:55:32.200 me that feels like this is a move away from 1:55:32.280 --> 1:55:36.320 that because like everyone you go to there's winging about 1:55:36.360 --> 1:55:39.280 like an inconvenience cause by strike, but pretty much everyone 1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:42.360 is like, yeah, those they have it, it's awful for them. 1:55:42.440 --> 1:55:45.200 It's all the strike drivers. Good on them for standing 1:55:45.280 --> 1:55:48.080 up for themselves. Good on the teachers for standing up 1:55:48.080 --> 1:55:50.320 for themselves. Good on postal workers were standing up for themselves. 1:55:50.400 --> 1:55:52.880 Good on nurses were standing up for themselves. Like the 1:55:52.960 --> 1:55:56.680 amount of like stuff I've been brought by people on 1:55:56.840 --> 1:56:00.800 the picket lines has been in credits, Like I each 1:56:00.880 --> 1:56:03.360 day I've just been like rolling down for hill from 1:56:03.440 --> 1:56:06.080 my hospital to my house like a bloated stomach from 1:56:06.120 --> 1:56:08.200 like stuff members of the public import and drop top 1:56:08.240 --> 1:56:12.160 of the pick it line. It's um. It makes me 1:56:12.240 --> 1:56:15.440 feel like it's there is the optimist part of me. 1:56:15.640 --> 1:56:19.000 It does feel like there is a reorientation in general 1:56:19.320 --> 1:56:22.160 of British public to the idea that we don't have 1:56:22.320 --> 1:56:25.360 to put up with this, yeah, and you don't have 1:56:25.480 --> 1:56:27.640 to struggle and try and get it on your own. 1:56:27.680 --> 1:56:29.600 And like it's early days yet, but I do see 1:56:29.720 --> 1:56:33.200 something positive moving in that direction in the UK. As 1:56:33.520 --> 1:56:37.640 to this strike wave, Yeah, that's a that is I 1:56:37.720 --> 1:56:40.040 don't know that that is great news from a place 1:56:40.120 --> 1:56:43.760 that does not usually generate great news. This is like 1:56:43.960 --> 1:56:45.920 the this is the deeply optimistic part of me. On 1:56:46.000 --> 1:56:48.440 the other hand, you have like bad a lot of 1:56:48.480 --> 1:56:54.160 bad news coming out of the UK. Yeah, like this 1:56:54.280 --> 1:56:57.160 strike wave is good news. It is the fact that 1:56:57.240 --> 1:56:59.440 it's happening in the NHS in particular, which has been 1:56:59.480 --> 1:57:04.080 so resist to industrial action historically, and also just because 1:57:04.680 --> 1:57:07.320 of how what significant part of the economy it is 1:57:07.360 --> 1:57:10.920 as well, because like you know, the NHS is the 1:57:10.960 --> 1:57:14.120 eighth biggest employer in the world. Wow, you know it's 1:57:14.160 --> 1:57:17.520 in the world. That's that's wild. Yeah, Like it used 1:57:17.520 --> 1:57:20.480 to be like the fifth biggest in the world. Wow, 1:57:21.640 --> 1:57:25.000 it's yeah, it used to only be that the American Army, 1:57:25.040 --> 1:57:29.240 the Chinese army, mcdawns of Walmart would be it would 1:57:29.240 --> 1:57:33.000 be overtaken by Amazon and such. Now but yeah, yeah, 1:57:33.560 --> 1:57:38.360 like like strike action, so like from like a workers' perspective, 1:57:38.800 --> 1:57:41.720 like strike action of like the largest section of the workforce, 1:57:42.000 --> 1:57:45.560 nurses in the NHS, the biggest in plowing the world, 1:57:47.480 --> 1:57:49.760 leaving aside the situation for everything else in the UK, 1:57:50.360 --> 1:57:55.600 leaving aside their history of the opposition, like the active 1:57:55.600 --> 1:57:58.560 opposition to the idea of striking within nursing the historically 1:57:58.600 --> 1:58:01.440 in the UK is huge news and something to be 1:58:01.520 --> 1:58:03.960 hopeful about. And then put into context of the more 1:58:04.000 --> 1:58:07.160 broader strikeway in the UK and within the NHS in general, 1:58:07.280 --> 1:58:10.720 this is huge and it is a sign I think, 1:58:11.160 --> 1:58:17.320 or positive change and like reontation towards workplace struggle occurring. 1:58:17.680 --> 1:58:23.000 I think. So I've now heard two different places do this, 1:58:23.400 --> 1:58:25.840 which was I heard this in Chile in twenty nineteen, 1:58:25.840 --> 1:58:27.720 and I heard this also on my picket line at 1:58:27.720 --> 1:58:31.160 the University of Chicago in twenty nineteen, which is, I like, 1:58:31.360 --> 1:58:34.760 I this is the place dear liberalism was born, and 1:58:34.800 --> 1:58:37.760 we will kill it here. And I mean those are 1:58:37.760 --> 1:58:42.360 the three places, Yeah, Chicago and the UK. Yeah, I think. 1:58:42.360 --> 1:58:45.040 I think also arguably Germany, although that has a whole 1:58:45.160 --> 1:58:53.080 other rdal libs are all the libs. From my understanding 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:55.800 of it, from listening to some things about years ago, 1:58:55.800 --> 1:58:58.080 it's it's more of a family resemblance than the exact 1:58:58.120 --> 1:59:00.240 same thing as near liberalism. Yeah, I mean, I think 1:59:00.320 --> 1:59:04.240 if we're gonna I think they got absorbed into the 1:59:04.320 --> 1:59:07.600 neoliberal bubble so far as like like they're they're the 1:59:07.760 --> 1:59:11.200 order libs are where the neo liberals got the sort 1:59:11.240 --> 1:59:14.360 of like we need to have like an international bureaucracy, 1:59:15.000 --> 1:59:18.160 like the legal bureaucracy from like hyak is also like 1:59:18.200 --> 1:59:20.040 heavy of all. Yeah that that's that's the whole of this, right, 1:59:20.080 --> 1:59:21.720 But yeah, like it is. It is encouraging to me 1:59:21.800 --> 1:59:24.840 that it's like, I don't know, like like the it 1:59:25.000 --> 1:59:27.400 really does seem like in the places where the liberals 1:59:27.640 --> 1:59:31.000 was bored, it's like it's starting to come apart. Yeah, 1:59:31.360 --> 1:59:33.360 And you know, I know people people have been predicting 1:59:33.360 --> 1:59:39.680 the death of neoliberalism for like long, well almost as 1:59:39.720 --> 1:59:42.720 long as I've been alive. But I don't know this 1:59:43.080 --> 1:59:47.000 this like the fact that it's happening in these places 1:59:47.360 --> 1:59:53.720 seems different than it does seem. I think it is significant. 1:59:54.520 --> 2:00:00.040 I think I'm I am cautiously excited every time I 2:00:00.280 --> 2:00:03.560 hope something bad happens, but I am hopeful now. And 2:00:03.880 --> 2:00:08.600 you know, my brain is a magic so it can't 2:00:08.600 --> 2:00:12.360 be a cause of effect there. Yeah, but I don't know. 2:00:12.440 --> 2:00:14.879 I mean, like you are the second person I've interviewed 2:00:14.920 --> 2:00:18.160 from the UK who actually seemed to be like somewhat 2:00:18.200 --> 2:00:20.720 optimistic above the direction you could possibly be going, which 2:00:20.760 --> 2:00:23.200 is the first time I've heard that in Like, I mean, 2:00:23.240 --> 2:00:26.200 I guess you're people who are optimistic about Corbin, but yeah, 2:00:26.240 --> 2:00:27.840 I don't know. This is this is the first sort 2:00:27.880 --> 2:00:33.400 of like signs of that since I don't know a 2:00:33.520 --> 2:00:36.480 long time, and I think, yeah, look like if I 2:00:36.640 --> 2:00:38.760 was host of the American listens, like, if turf Island 2:00:38.880 --> 2:00:42.520 isn't doomed, then we're not doomed either. I don't know. 2:00:42.680 --> 2:00:45.960 Here's what I gonna say, Well, you're taking us on 2:00:46.080 --> 2:00:51.000 that it's true. Yeah we have Yeah, I am Yeah, 2:00:51.440 --> 2:00:53.240 I don't know when this is coming out, but I'm 2:00:53.280 --> 2:00:55.240 gonna I'm gonna be honest man. Like, there's a lot 2:00:55.280 --> 2:00:57.280 of ways the UK is better than the magic. Yeah, 2:00:57.320 --> 2:00:59.960 the US, like is it's a it's a real disaster, 2:01:00.640 --> 2:01:05.000 like it's it's yeah. Yeah, I mean I think we're 2:01:05.040 --> 2:01:07.560 both equally banned a lot of ways. Yeah, I think 2:01:07.600 --> 2:01:10.080 the things and the things that like people in the 2:01:10.360 --> 2:01:12.680 US look at England say this is awful of the 2:01:12.760 --> 2:01:15.080 things people in the UK look at the US and 2:01:15.120 --> 2:01:19.520 say this is awful. It's it's kind of a a 2:01:19.640 --> 2:01:22.640 child looking at their parent and being pissed off at them, 2:01:22.680 --> 2:01:25.080 and a child and a child and a parent looking 2:01:25.120 --> 2:01:29.360 at their child and being disappointed in them. No, no, 2:01:29.600 --> 2:01:34.240 you both suck. It's family resemblance. It's we hate us 2:01:34.320 --> 2:01:38.200 for It's a narcissism of small differences like yeah, between 2:01:38.200 --> 2:01:42.880 the US and the UK K a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:01:43.240 --> 2:01:44.800 I guess do you have anything else do you want 2:01:44.800 --> 2:01:48.040 to say about the strikes? I think the fact it 2:01:48.200 --> 2:01:51.680 got this far is incredible. There's so much supermor that 2:01:51.800 --> 2:01:57.839 needs to go. Um. I'm really excited and I'm really scared. 2:01:59.480 --> 2:02:01.560 I think this is the potential for like a turning 2:02:01.600 --> 2:02:06.120 point around, both for the NHS but for my profession 2:02:06.200 --> 2:02:10.360 for nursing and also like in general in the context 2:02:10.400 --> 2:02:13.800 the wide strike bastion for the UK. But you know, 2:02:14.440 --> 2:02:19.000 the higher the stakes, the higher the perils. Like this 2:02:19.240 --> 2:02:22.160 is our I think this is our fight to lose, essentially, 2:02:23.080 --> 2:02:26.240 Like I think if we do it, if we go 2:02:26.400 --> 2:02:30.440 seriously and like the membership takes controls of it from 2:02:30.520 --> 2:02:33.560 like the leader, from their union leadership, which is very cautious, 2:02:33.600 --> 2:02:36.640 which has been put put into position of being more 2:02:36.720 --> 2:02:40.520 miller of like unprecedented millings to see almost by accident, 2:02:41.080 --> 2:02:45.680 we're trying to appease the membership. We can achieve something incredible, 2:02:45.760 --> 2:02:49.880 but it's really the book's open. It can go either way, 2:02:50.080 --> 2:02:55.400 and like I'm excited and I'm terrified by it. Yeah, 2:02:55.480 --> 2:02:59.160 if people want to support the strikes, where can they go? 2:02:59.320 --> 2:03:02.680 Is there a strike they can donate to? The RCM 2:03:02.760 --> 2:03:06.360 has an open strike fund. I would invite anyone listening 2:03:06.440 --> 2:03:12.960 to donate too. I would also like find the articles 2:03:13.000 --> 2:03:15.400 about the petition that've been going around, like the mind 2:03:15.400 --> 2:03:19.240 of the rcmle ship takes a stronger stance, and like 2:03:19.480 --> 2:03:24.200 just share that around generally create more visibility on that. Yeah, 2:03:24.240 --> 2:03:28.320 well we'll put links to both of those in the description. Yeah, 2:03:29.560 --> 2:03:34.000 those are the main things I would suggest. Again, the 2:03:34.200 --> 2:03:37.360 national nature of this struggle and the fact that it's 2:03:37.400 --> 2:03:40.320 not even really against our direct employers makes it harder 2:03:40.360 --> 2:03:42.800 to talk specifically about this thing or that thing in 2:03:42.880 --> 2:03:46.040 some ways. But yeah, those are the two things I 2:03:46.080 --> 2:03:48.840 would ask, Like, the big our strike pot, the easier 2:03:48.880 --> 2:03:53.000 it is to argue for more aggressive action, and the 2:03:53.200 --> 2:03:57.360 more visibility goes on that petition, the more you'll take 2:03:57.400 --> 2:04:00.560 a lot more than a petition to like shifts things 2:04:00.600 --> 2:04:04.520 to the roots, to being in the forefront and the 2:04:04.600 --> 2:04:07.120 leadership position of this. But it's something that will make 2:04:07.160 --> 2:04:09.640 people feel more empowered to put more pressure on the leadership. 2:04:10.360 --> 2:04:13.720 It's like a small stepping point towards what we need. 2:04:14.920 --> 2:04:17.360 I'd also like to recommend a book to anyone who 2:04:17.440 --> 2:04:19.800 wants to find out more about the history of the 2:04:19.880 --> 2:04:23.120 NHS and the current situation. Some comrades of mine like 2:04:23.240 --> 2:04:28.720 from a group called the Ambi Workers and also revolution. 2:04:28.920 --> 2:04:30.600 I always forget the other group. They did it with 2:04:30.680 --> 2:04:35.880 his name, This is embarrassing. Yeah, anarchist communist group wrote 2:04:36.560 --> 2:04:39.160 and Healthcare Workers United, which is like a network I'm 2:04:39.200 --> 2:04:41.640 involved in, put together a book called Sick of It, 2:04:41.760 --> 2:04:44.960 which is like a collection of workers inquiries and reflections 2:04:45.000 --> 2:04:49.120 on the NHS. It's history, it's potentials and what and stuff. 2:04:49.160 --> 2:04:52.400 That's really a great book. Sadly not available as any book, 2:04:52.480 --> 2:04:54.320 but it's it's an excellent read and like it will 2:04:54.360 --> 2:04:56.200 tell you. We'll give you a real insight into what 2:04:56.320 --> 2:04:58.560 the NHS has been historically and what it is now 2:04:58.640 --> 2:05:02.760 for anyone who's interested in that. That's awesome. Yeah, the 2:05:02.760 --> 2:05:05.040 angry workers are really cool. By the way, they're on Twitter. 2:05:05.600 --> 2:05:12.040 I probably should have. It's probably just angry workers. Yeah, 2:05:13.120 --> 2:05:16.640 yeah it is. Oh wait, no, I'm wrong, it's it's workers. 2:05:16.760 --> 2:05:23.400 It's at workers angry I think wait, no, no, it's yeah, 2:05:23.400 --> 2:05:26.720 it's at work. Is angry? It is? Yeah. Yeah, I'm 2:05:26.720 --> 2:05:29.080 not on Twitter. I don't. I don't know about these things. 2:05:30.040 --> 2:05:33.600 It is. It is a cursed place. Um yeah, getting works. 2:05:33.960 --> 2:05:37.080 Oh god. Yeah. If you want to want to find 2:05:37.240 --> 2:05:42.760 us at Twitter, we are at cools one Media. Um yeah, 2:05:42.800 --> 2:05:45.880 we're also on Instagram. I'm told we're on Instagram. I 2:05:45.920 --> 2:05:48.960 don't have one, so I don't know. This is what 2:05:49.040 --> 2:05:51.560 I've been being told from many years. If we don't, 2:05:52.360 --> 2:05:56.160 don't tell me. Uh yeah, And thank you all for listening. 2:05:56.360 --> 2:06:01.240 And yeah, go do your own strikes at make boss's lives, mister. Please. 2:06:01.320 --> 2:06:03.200 The more strikes are going on, the more people want 2:06:03.200 --> 2:06:21.640 to go on strike. Hey, okay, hello, and welcome to 2:06:21.680 --> 2:06:24.839 it could happen here a podcast. It is about today, 2:06:24.960 --> 2:06:28.560 about labor organizing and about what happens after a strike 2:06:29.000 --> 2:06:32.360 in a labor organization. I'm joined, I'm James. If you 2:06:32.440 --> 2:06:35.000 hadn't guessed and I'm joined by several people from the 2:06:35.120 --> 2:06:37.760 UCSD Dollar Lunch Club. We're going to talk about the 2:06:37.840 --> 2:06:39.800 UC strike and we're going to talk about mutual aid 2:06:39.880 --> 2:06:42.120 organizing in the wake of the strike. If you would 2:06:42.160 --> 2:06:45.960 like to introduce yourselves, that would be great. I'm Alex. 2:06:46.160 --> 2:06:49.400 I use she, they pronounce I'm Matt and I use 2:06:49.520 --> 2:06:52.640 he him. Hi. Everyone, my name is Maria. I am 2:06:52.680 --> 2:06:55.880 a PhD student at UCSD, and I use she her 2:06:55.960 --> 2:07:01.520 pronounce I'm anna and I use the pronounce amazing. Thank 2:07:01.560 --> 2:07:04.880 you very much, guys. So I think people probably haven't 2:07:04.960 --> 2:07:07.120 heard much from us about the uc strike since we 2:07:07.360 --> 2:07:11.839 last sort of had some episodes around December and January, 2:07:12.040 --> 2:07:13.840 and obviously it's been a couple of months since then. 2:07:14.320 --> 2:07:18.160 So the resolution of that strike was kind of contentious, right, 2:07:18.240 --> 2:07:20.400 And a lot of the organizing that you guys have 2:07:20.520 --> 2:07:22.400 been doing came out of the campaign to vote no 2:07:22.880 --> 2:07:26.760 on the I guess the ballot after the strike right 2:07:27.520 --> 2:07:31.920 to vote no and the tentative agreement, which ultimately didn't succeed. Right, 2:07:31.960 --> 2:07:35.720 the tentative agreement, there was a yes vote, and I 2:07:35.800 --> 2:07:39.880 wonder if you could all explain kind of like it's 2:07:39.920 --> 2:07:42.240 obvious how the yes vote was organized right within the 2:07:42.320 --> 2:07:45.560 structure of a union which which exists, to which I 2:07:45.680 --> 2:07:48.960 had obviously made disagreement with the you see in this case, 2:07:49.080 --> 2:07:51.520 and then it's a job of the people who made 2:07:51.560 --> 2:07:53.800 that agreement to then get a yes vote on that agreement. 2:07:53.920 --> 2:07:55.960 But can you explain a little bit about how the 2:07:56.120 --> 2:07:59.600 no vote campaign came together and maybe if someone could 2:07:59.600 --> 2:08:03.680 also made some of the substantive issues that you felt 2:08:03.680 --> 2:08:10.480 would satisfactory resolved in that intensive agreement. Yeah, the no 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:14.600 vote was the end of a very long process of 2:08:15.160 --> 2:08:20.920 us feeling like the bargaining team was making progressively worse 2:08:21.080 --> 2:08:28.040 and worse decisions and basically using submission as a tactic 2:08:28.560 --> 2:08:32.960 to improve gains in bargaining. We felt like that was 2:08:33.240 --> 2:08:38.240 not a great tactic. So the upshot of the no 2:08:38.520 --> 2:08:43.440 vote campaign was that fundamentally we felt that the bargaining 2:08:43.480 --> 2:08:47.960 team had not fought hard enough. They had made repeated 2:08:48.600 --> 2:08:53.640 U sacrifices of our core demands UH drastically cutting our 2:08:53.680 --> 2:09:00.240 fifty four thousand U wage demands are cola, and that 2:09:00.360 --> 2:09:04.200 we felt, particularly since it was during the winter break 2:09:04.600 --> 2:09:08.800 and we had his home time to you know, stretch 2:09:08.880 --> 2:09:10.360 it out a little bit further, that if we had 2:09:10.400 --> 2:09:12.640 gone back to the bargaining table at that point, that 2:09:12.840 --> 2:09:16.200 we would have been able to recoup some of those demands. 2:09:17.360 --> 2:09:21.440 I don't think there was like a consensus that it 2:09:21.640 --> 2:09:26.400 was like obvious that uh, like union resources would exclusively 2:09:26.480 --> 2:09:31.000 be used for yes vote stuff either maybe partially, but 2:09:31.360 --> 2:09:37.120 that was one part of like the major conflict was that, 2:09:37.400 --> 2:09:41.600 like when some of us were trying to do like 2:09:41.760 --> 2:09:47.520 a text banking campaign for like, uh no vote stuff, 2:09:48.960 --> 2:09:52.200 I know of at least one person who like feared 2:09:52.320 --> 2:09:58.000 for their career because like their colleague was like, you're 2:09:58.080 --> 2:10:03.960 misusing like per personally a personal information that like this 2:10:04.200 --> 2:10:07.000 isn't why people like agreed to give it to the union, 2:10:07.200 --> 2:10:09.680 and like you can't just take it and use it 2:10:10.640 --> 2:10:14.480 for like, you know, campaigning for your no vote stuff. 2:10:14.520 --> 2:10:17.040 But then we were like, this is for a union purpose, 2:10:17.960 --> 2:10:22.720 why can't we like contact people on the same topic 2:10:23.000 --> 2:10:26.200 that all of us are getting a bajillion mass texts 2:10:26.240 --> 2:10:29.720 about um and so like I do think that was 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:33.920 also a point of contention within that like like the 2:10:34.160 --> 2:10:42.720 union does not share resources amongst, like amongst people who 2:10:42.880 --> 2:10:48.040 are campaigning for different sides of like ballad issues, right, yeah, yeah, 2:10:48.080 --> 2:10:50.240 So it wasn't like there wasn't like a like an 2:10:50.320 --> 2:10:53.000 open channel where like people could have an open discussion, 2:10:53.320 --> 2:10:57.440 but at least using the text banking function at least. Yeah, 2:10:57.560 --> 2:11:04.640 we we have been old um that in the event 2:11:04.880 --> 2:11:08.400 that a variument chain did not have a unanimous vote 2:11:09.160 --> 2:11:15.360 in favor of TAA, the agreement that both sides would 2:11:15.400 --> 2:11:18.520 have the opportunity to use union resources learned to campaign 2:11:18.600 --> 2:11:22.600 for their their preference, and that that didn't turn actually 2:11:22.640 --> 2:11:26.240 the case. Yeah, that's that's upsetting. And so how did 2:11:26.320 --> 2:11:29.560 you organize because it was it wasn't like the nervote 2:11:29.560 --> 2:11:32.240 campaign is only the four people here right, Like it 2:11:32.400 --> 2:11:35.920 was a very substantive campaign that the large number of 2:11:35.960 --> 2:11:38.240 people supported and voted for. It wasn't like this is 2:11:38.280 --> 2:11:42.320 a kind of ninety nine percent yes situations. How did 2:11:42.360 --> 2:11:45.160 you all organize for the nervote campaign when you didn't 2:11:45.160 --> 2:11:48.760 have access to those resources. It was a pretty distributed 2:11:48.880 --> 2:11:51.920 network of for instance, signal chats, so a lot of 2:11:52.200 --> 2:11:57.760 signal what'sapp discord groups, and it was it was very grassroots. 2:11:57.880 --> 2:12:01.200 So if you knew someone in one of those groups, 2:12:01.280 --> 2:12:05.960 they would add you. M Yeah, I'm sure Matt and 2:12:06.200 --> 2:12:08.600 Allison have more to add, I think they were in 2:12:08.680 --> 2:12:12.680 some very large group chats. Yes, and those group chats 2:12:12.800 --> 2:12:17.000 on were both on the UC San Diego campus as 2:12:17.040 --> 2:12:21.200 well as statewide, so you know, this this wasn't just 2:12:21.440 --> 2:12:24.880 something that UC San Diego was voting on, right, this 2:12:25.160 --> 2:12:31.160 was all of the California campuses. We also had a 2:12:31.560 --> 2:12:37.520 strike Center which involved in towards the end of our 2:12:37.600 --> 2:12:42.400 active picketing before winter break, a number of people from 2:12:42.440 --> 2:12:46.240 all different departments migrated from their pickets. Who was more 2:12:46.320 --> 2:12:51.320 central location And although it was not synonymous with and 2:12:52.880 --> 2:12:57.200 it was unofficially kind of seen as the dissidents side, 2:12:57.320 --> 2:13:00.560 the vast majority of people who participated in the strike 2:13:00.720 --> 2:13:03.760 center were I ended up being no voters when the 2:13:03.840 --> 2:13:09.480 time came. I think Anna is pretty right in saying 2:13:09.520 --> 2:13:12.360 that a lot of the organization was like a distributed, 2:13:12.480 --> 2:13:17.240 decentralized thing across signal chats. Like in my experience, there was, 2:13:17.320 --> 2:13:23.160 for example, the Disability Justice Coalition, who've done a lot 2:13:23.320 --> 2:13:28.440 on you know, accommodations and disability rights and things like that, 2:13:28.600 --> 2:13:32.600 and so they were approaching things from different angles than 2:13:33.640 --> 2:13:37.000 other chats that were like, you know, doing like oh, 2:13:37.640 --> 2:13:41.600 here is a list of emails from you know, uci 2:13:41.880 --> 2:13:44.840 of grad students in this department, please feel free to 2:13:44.960 --> 2:13:47.280 email it. And you know, like so there was like 2:13:47.360 --> 2:13:50.360 a diversity of tactics there, if that makes sense. So 2:13:51.760 --> 2:13:55.680 it was like a lot of like petitioning emails, talking 2:13:55.880 --> 2:13:59.480 one on one with people, so me personally, and several 2:13:59.560 --> 2:14:02.280 people that I know like set up meetings with like 2:14:02.360 --> 2:14:04.800 their labmates and just be like, hey, how are you doing, 2:14:04.920 --> 2:14:07.640 so have you heard of what's going on? Things like that, 2:14:07.840 --> 2:14:11.520 which I think are very normal union things to do. 2:14:12.280 --> 2:14:18.200 I did find that like official, like not maybe not official, 2:14:18.280 --> 2:14:21.560 but in my department, we had two people kind of 2:14:21.640 --> 2:14:24.920 take up like union liaison roles, and they tended to 2:14:25.040 --> 2:14:29.600 be more like yes voters rather than no voters, And 2:14:29.720 --> 2:14:33.480 I found that their form of communication to us never 2:14:34.400 --> 2:14:37.360 had that kind of like reaching out to other people. 2:14:37.520 --> 2:14:40.920 They would say like, hey, there's a campus oc happening 2:14:40.960 --> 2:14:43.760 at five pm, but they wouldn't reach out to members 2:14:43.800 --> 2:14:47.360 of the department to get everyone's opinion until like week three, 2:14:47.440 --> 2:14:50.200 week four of the strike. So you know, I think 2:14:50.320 --> 2:14:55.240 what no Voters did excel at was reaching out to 2:14:55.320 --> 2:15:01.760 people individually and like actually like going out to different labs, 2:15:01.840 --> 2:15:05.760 two different departments and talking with people like either one 2:15:05.840 --> 2:15:09.080 on one or within small groups. So me personally as 2:15:09.120 --> 2:15:12.360 well as another member of the Dollar Lunch Club actually 2:15:12.600 --> 2:15:17.600 canvassed around graduate housing. So we during the ratification, but 2:15:17.800 --> 2:15:21.360 we were literally like holding stacks of paper and saying like, hey, 2:15:22.040 --> 2:15:24.520 this is kind of the layout of what you'll be 2:15:24.640 --> 2:15:28.040 paid for each month that the union, like the UAW 2:15:28.400 --> 2:15:31.960 is not showing you, Like if you're in you know, 2:15:32.960 --> 2:15:36.120 in this year, you're going to be getting a barely 2:15:36.240 --> 2:15:39.080 like two hundred dollar raise for these several months. That 2:15:39.280 --> 2:15:43.080 kind of thing, which is like very you know, that 2:15:43.280 --> 2:15:49.160 information just was not made accessible or made clear by 2:15:49.240 --> 2:15:52.560 the UAWN. For me, that was purposefully done, at least 2:15:52.600 --> 2:15:55.120 in my opinion, that was purposefully done. So I think 2:15:55.160 --> 2:15:59.200 the diversity of tactics there that the no voters incorporated. 2:15:59.440 --> 2:16:02.200 And it was only after we started canvassing around graduate 2:16:02.240 --> 2:16:05.200 housing that we started seeing yes, voters also canvassing around 2:16:05.240 --> 2:16:08.080 graduate housing and tearing down the posts that we had 2:16:08.120 --> 2:16:11.800 put on other people's doors. Yeah, so it got contentious, 2:16:11.880 --> 2:16:16.280 but I think because we didn't have those official resources 2:16:16.360 --> 2:16:20.480 that the UAW usually or at least our chapter of 2:16:20.560 --> 2:16:25.040 the UAW usually can depend on, such as like oh, 2:16:25.080 --> 2:16:27.360 an official mailing list, and then we'll just like send 2:16:27.440 --> 2:16:30.240 you or basically spam you a bunch of updates. We 2:16:30.360 --> 2:16:34.520 had to work around that by doing more personal meetings by, 2:16:36.280 --> 2:16:39.360 for example, in the last week of the strike, facilitating 2:16:39.600 --> 2:16:44.920 group lunches right where multiple departments would come together, bring food, 2:16:45.160 --> 2:16:48.760 cook like nine ten in the pots worth of stews 2:16:48.879 --> 2:16:51.440 for everyone, and then that would be an opportunity for 2:16:51.560 --> 2:16:54.280 me to talk to people that I have never talked 2:16:54.280 --> 2:16:56.640 to in my life, from like completely different departments and 2:16:56.720 --> 2:16:59.640 tell them like, hey, I don't think this is looking 2:16:59.720 --> 2:17:04.440 really good for us, especially like we have very different conditions, 2:17:04.920 --> 2:17:09.160 very different working conditions, and just overall you may be 2:17:09.280 --> 2:17:11.880 part of the SRU, I'm part of two eight six five, 2:17:12.280 --> 2:17:15.640 here's how we should talk. So again, that was because 2:17:16.280 --> 2:17:20.240 the UAWU was not utilizing those avenues of getting people 2:17:20.320 --> 2:17:22.800 to talk to each other. So I'm not sure I 2:17:22.959 --> 2:17:25.640 kind of went off topic, but I wanted to like 2:17:26.000 --> 2:17:29.760 really hammer home that because we didn't have all those resources, 2:17:29.800 --> 2:17:33.440 we had to rely on kind of these like how 2:17:33.480 --> 2:17:36.760 should they say, like very distributed, piecemeal strategies of like 2:17:36.879 --> 2:17:39.119 oh well let's do something here. This isn't going to work. 2:17:39.160 --> 2:17:42.040 For this department. Let's do that for this department. You know, 2:17:42.879 --> 2:17:45.039 if that makes sense. It does. I think it's really 2:17:45.040 --> 2:17:46.520 cool because I think that's how there's a lot of 2:17:46.560 --> 2:17:49.640 people can learn if they're interested in organizing their own workplaces. Right, 2:17:49.720 --> 2:17:53.320 whether it's organizing for a vote unattenative agreement, or it's 2:17:53.360 --> 2:17:56.640 just organizing to form collective bargaining in the first place, 2:17:56.879 --> 2:17:59.119 or to deal with a particular issue with your bosses, 2:17:59.120 --> 2:18:03.040 whatever it is, there's grassroots things work, especially when you 2:18:03.120 --> 2:18:09.000 don't have the this giant, sort of massive union apparatus. 2:18:10.000 --> 2:18:13.200 I wanted to say, like, um, just with like what 2:18:13.520 --> 2:18:17.480 it feels like like to be in like all of 2:18:17.640 --> 2:18:23.440 the different chats, um, because like, at at the peak 2:18:23.520 --> 2:18:27.040 of everything, I was like probably sending you like a 2:18:27.200 --> 2:18:31.400 dozen different Google docs a day. Um, it was all 2:18:31.520 --> 2:18:35.960 just like like, we'll start a different group chat for 2:18:37.800 --> 2:18:39.680 It was all just we'll start a different group chat 2:18:39.760 --> 2:18:44.359 for the specific purpose of like nobody's talking about disability justice, 2:18:44.400 --> 2:18:47.160 and so we want to talk about disability justice in here, 2:18:47.800 --> 2:18:52.240 and we've decided this forum is not good. And then 2:18:52.360 --> 2:18:56.160 somebody in the chat goes like, well, I'm with people 2:18:56.240 --> 2:19:01.080 who are also interested in like furthering this topic. And 2:19:01.200 --> 2:19:03.720 I don't see them any of them doing something like 2:19:04.080 --> 2:19:11.600 you know, um like analyzing uh like reanalyzing the like 2:19:11.760 --> 2:19:15.440 housing market data and not just like taking the uaw's 2:19:15.480 --> 2:19:18.080 word for it, or like like doing a little bit 2:19:18.120 --> 2:19:21.920 of like forensic accounting on the university and then posting 2:19:21.959 --> 2:19:25.720 the Google doc and saying like, hey, I did some 2:19:26.000 --> 2:19:30.000 like forensic accounting on the university. This is something that 2:19:30.080 --> 2:19:32.760 we can use in arguments and also is like evidence 2:19:32.800 --> 2:19:37.680 of X or YU. So yeah, just a lot of people. 2:19:37.760 --> 2:19:40.760 It helps. Also it helps to be any union full 2:19:40.800 --> 2:19:43.880 of grad students. Yeah, you do. You have a lot 2:19:43.920 --> 2:19:47.720 of useful skills. It can also be very taxing organizing 2:19:47.840 --> 2:19:53.640 that way, Like it can be really I know, it's 2:19:53.640 --> 2:19:55.600 a lot of being on your phone, and it's a 2:19:55.680 --> 2:19:58.560 lot of like your phone vibrating and and you're having 2:19:58.600 --> 2:20:01.199 to switch your focus from some like in depth discussion 2:20:01.240 --> 2:20:04.360 of disability justice to a discussion of like why the 2:20:04.440 --> 2:20:07.880 rent is so damn high in Santa Cruz and so 2:20:08.160 --> 2:20:12.720 like it can be really like I guess, I don't know, 2:20:12.800 --> 2:20:14.840 I'm not a person who does well with that kind 2:20:14.840 --> 2:20:17.560 of shit, and so like I wonder if there's anything 2:20:17.720 --> 2:20:20.360 because this happened a lot in twenty twenty two. Right 2:20:20.400 --> 2:20:23.000 when we look at how the George Floyd uprising or 2:20:23.040 --> 2:20:24.960 the uprising for back Lives, whatever you want to call it, 2:20:25.120 --> 2:20:27.080 was organized. There was also a whole lot of signal 2:20:27.160 --> 2:20:29.560 chats that I know for a lot of people I 2:20:29.600 --> 2:20:32.160 spoke to like they just couldn't handle the signal chats. 2:20:33.600 --> 2:20:37.520 So I wonder if there's anything that you learned during 2:20:37.560 --> 2:20:41.200 that organizing process that you would like to pass on 2:20:41.280 --> 2:20:44.920 to people who are interested in organizing going forward. One 2:20:45.320 --> 2:20:52.000 thing I'll say is it became pretty clear that, you know, 2:20:52.120 --> 2:20:55.840 the people who had created the signal chats or the 2:20:55.920 --> 2:21:03.279 WhatsApp chats were the ones who were able to monitor, manipulate, 2:21:03.920 --> 2:21:08.760 shut it down, which happens to our campus picket leaders 2:21:09.360 --> 2:21:15.520 organizing chat after the no vote had already failed. Was 2:21:15.560 --> 2:21:19.960 a couple of weeks later during the Joint Council meeting 2:21:20.120 --> 2:21:25.960 of the aw and UM. You know, the the discourse 2:21:26.360 --> 2:21:30.800 and the arguments that were happening there, while certainly very 2:21:31.360 --> 2:21:38.680 painful and vociferous, were also you know, very connecting to 2:21:38.800 --> 2:21:41.320 the campus. Lots of different departments were on there, so 2:21:41.480 --> 2:21:43.800 we still got a lot of ideas about you know, 2:21:43.879 --> 2:21:46.840 what other departments were thinking of, UM And with the 2:21:47.600 --> 2:21:49.800 locking down of that chat, which was kind of a 2:21:49.959 --> 2:21:52.320 unilateral action on the part of one of the moderators, 2:21:52.879 --> 2:21:57.480 that just really ended a lot of campus discussion and 2:21:58.160 --> 2:22:02.000 in my opinion, further the divide between the two sides. 2:22:03.040 --> 2:22:05.280 And the other thing that I'll say is, you know, 2:22:05.720 --> 2:22:09.080 it's really hard from a historical perspective, from a communications 2:22:09.160 --> 2:22:14.200 perspective to see like that people who are typing slower 2:22:14.560 --> 2:22:19.280 are not getting their opinions out. People who are in 2:22:19.480 --> 2:22:23.320 multiple chats are getting certain types of information that other 2:22:23.360 --> 2:22:27.720 people are not getting. And my words of advice to 2:22:28.480 --> 2:22:31.800 any any mass movement that is attempting to use these 2:22:31.920 --> 2:22:37.400 kinds of chat applications are one to be sure that 2:22:37.600 --> 2:22:43.720 you are monitoring for accountability. I've realized very late in 2:22:43.840 --> 2:22:48.120 the game that you can actually download WhatsApp transcripts, So 2:22:48.160 --> 2:22:50.480 I download the entire strandscript just in case you've got 2:22:50.640 --> 2:22:54.640 newt screenshots. Also, you know, people would so why I 2:22:54.680 --> 2:22:56.600 said this, and you know to this persons who know 2:22:56.959 --> 2:23:00.200 you know, somebody took screenshot at out before you've deleted it. UM. 2:23:01.120 --> 2:23:04.280 And the other thing is, you know, to always have backups. 2:23:04.440 --> 2:23:09.000 Always have back channels, because there were so many instances 2:23:09.240 --> 2:23:15.240 of of you know, moderator lead or UAW sanctions chats 2:23:15.640 --> 2:23:20.080 that did not permit discussion. And yeah, since you know 2:23:20.400 --> 2:23:24.800 we were talking about that ship in our in our 2:23:24.840 --> 2:23:28.240 back channels. Yeah, I think I think that's that's good advice. 2:23:28.760 --> 2:23:30.600 Kenn has just joined us, and I'm just going to 2:23:30.640 --> 2:23:32.800 allow them to introduce themselves before we go forward with 2:23:32.879 --> 2:23:38.440 discussing these organizing tactics. Go ahead, Ken Hi, I'm Ken. 2:23:38.920 --> 2:23:42.920 I am a graduate student in the literature department. UM. 2:23:43.000 --> 2:23:45.720 So I've been organizing with Dollar Lunch Club from day 2:23:47.200 --> 2:23:52.360 like week zero before the strike started with um with 2:23:52.640 --> 2:23:58.600 anna and yeah, and well that was from day one, 2:23:59.080 --> 2:24:02.360 that's true. I wanted to say, um, with respect to 2:24:02.440 --> 2:24:08.200 the question about like, uh just on my phone fatigue. UM, 2:24:08.440 --> 2:24:15.000 I think a large like part of like why we 2:24:15.400 --> 2:24:18.600 are now like this group of us here is Dollar 2:24:18.760 --> 2:24:22.320 Lunch Club is because we were just like we all 2:24:22.400 --> 2:24:24.760 have on my phone fatigue and we want to do 2:24:24.959 --> 2:24:31.720 something actually like community building and like meaningful, uh, for 2:24:32.200 --> 2:24:37.480 like ourselves and other grad students. UM. And yeah, getting 2:24:37.520 --> 2:24:40.680 off the phone and making soup together has been very 2:24:41.000 --> 2:24:45.720 h very good. For that. Yeah, Ray, do you want 2:24:45.720 --> 2:24:50.040 to add to that. Yeah, I I was going to 2:24:50.120 --> 2:24:54.880 say the same, like, because I think I think phone 2:24:54.920 --> 2:24:57.680 chats are vital, right, Like I'm thinking about how important 2:24:57.840 --> 2:25:01.440 Facebook messenger chats were to the teacher strike a couple 2:25:01.560 --> 2:25:04.040 of years ago, So those were like really important, and 2:25:04.160 --> 2:25:06.880 they were really important in our strike as well. But 2:25:07.000 --> 2:25:10.720 I think because of the limitations of like as Matt mentioned, 2:25:11.879 --> 2:25:14.600 someone can just unilaterally say none of you can reply 2:25:14.760 --> 2:25:19.000 only I can post updates, people can like erase their messages, 2:25:19.080 --> 2:25:21.960 they can nuke the entire chat, disable it. All of that. 2:25:22.440 --> 2:25:24.760 Because of that, it really tells you like, oh, you 2:25:24.920 --> 2:25:28.920 can't just rely on online organizing a lot of times 2:25:29.000 --> 2:25:32.080 You're going to have to do in person organizing, which, again, 2:25:32.280 --> 2:25:36.000 as Alex said, really well, part of that is just 2:25:36.160 --> 2:25:40.320 community building. Like to me, what Dollar Lunch Club is, 2:25:40.959 --> 2:25:44.240 it's like a continuation of that community building so that 2:25:44.360 --> 2:25:48.040 we maintain contacts, so that we maintain having conversations with 2:25:48.200 --> 2:25:52.080 people that generally we wouldn't really be meeting every day, 2:25:52.200 --> 2:25:56.080 or maybe wouldn't even be meeting like like once a quarter, 2:25:56.320 --> 2:25:58.480 that kind of thing. You know, there's people that I 2:25:58.640 --> 2:26:01.360 talked to in grips that I never would have talked 2:26:01.400 --> 2:26:03.840 to if we weren't doing some of these lunches together 2:26:03.920 --> 2:26:07.040 and finding out their situations. So they're in a kind 2:26:07.040 --> 2:26:09.400 of tough situation that I think would be good to 2:26:09.440 --> 2:26:14.160 talk about in soon. But I guess what I would 2:26:14.160 --> 2:26:16.360 say as advice for other people who are trying to 2:26:16.440 --> 2:26:23.320 unionize their workplace is to get people kind of engaged. 2:26:23.680 --> 2:26:26.400 You have to start with some of that community building, 2:26:26.720 --> 2:26:29.000 and I think food is one of those really good 2:26:29.720 --> 2:26:32.680 places to start community building. It could be also other 2:26:32.800 --> 2:26:35.760 types of activities. So all throughout the strike, there was 2:26:35.879 --> 2:26:38.160 you know, times when people would be like, hey, let's 2:26:38.240 --> 2:26:41.680 do yoga by the beach, you know, or let's do 2:26:41.840 --> 2:26:44.800 yoga on this picket, or let's do a dance on 2:26:44.920 --> 2:26:46.920 this picket, or let's do like a fashion show on 2:26:46.959 --> 2:26:49.720 this picket. Those are all like fun activities that I 2:26:49.840 --> 2:26:53.480 think people who do not want to be at their 2:26:53.720 --> 2:26:56.440 workplace all the time, people who just want to catch 2:26:56.480 --> 2:27:01.840 a break. You can engage those like disengaged people that 2:27:01.920 --> 2:27:05.880 are just not paying attention to politics by offering activities 2:27:06.480 --> 2:27:09.640 that are important for community building and forgetting to meet 2:27:09.720 --> 2:27:11.920 people that you wouldn't have talked to before. So I 2:27:11.959 --> 2:27:15.480 think that's kind of like vital to a union functioning 2:27:15.800 --> 2:27:18.880 is building all of these contacts. And then when you 2:27:19.000 --> 2:27:21.200 have talked to someone several times, when you have had 2:27:21.280 --> 2:27:23.200 lunch with them several times, then you can really get 2:27:23.280 --> 2:27:25.480 into the nitty gritty of like, well, how do you 2:27:25.640 --> 2:27:29.400 feel about the contract, how do you feel about you know, unionizing, 2:27:29.480 --> 2:27:32.400 how do you feel about so and so. I think 2:27:32.560 --> 2:27:35.440 that kind of community building is something that like our 2:27:36.840 --> 2:27:39.600 the UAW two eight sixty five at least, really just 2:27:39.840 --> 2:27:46.440 like neglected. So my example here is on one of 2:27:46.520 --> 2:27:48.560 the pickets, not the picket that I was on, but 2:27:48.720 --> 2:27:51.920 on one of the pickets. I later talked to a 2:27:52.040 --> 2:27:54.640 guy who was saying like, oh yeah, our picket is 2:27:54.720 --> 2:27:58.800 really militant. We're supposed to be like shouting at people 2:28:00.120 --> 2:28:03.640 the street the entire time. And you know, our picket leader, 2:28:05.000 --> 2:28:08.520 she's like going all out and she you know, has 2:28:08.600 --> 2:28:10.600 lost her voice because of that and all of that. 2:28:10.920 --> 2:28:12.840 And I was thinking, like, okay, but what do you 2:28:14.040 --> 2:28:17.200 don't you want to arrest? You know, like what like 2:28:17.640 --> 2:28:20.400 do you do anything for fun to keep people going 2:28:20.520 --> 2:28:23.440 to the picket Because his picket had dropped in numbers 2:28:23.480 --> 2:28:26.040 so much that they had to combine numbers with another 2:28:26.120 --> 2:28:28.440 picket right, And to me that was like you are 2:28:28.560 --> 2:28:31.760 making this really really stressful for people. That's not to 2:28:31.840 --> 2:28:36.000 say that you know, like preventing people from parking there 2:28:36.480 --> 2:28:39.440 isn't important. It is, but most people can only do 2:28:39.560 --> 2:28:41.360 that for a couple of days and then they're like 2:28:41.640 --> 2:28:44.080 stressed out and they do not want to contribute to 2:28:44.240 --> 2:28:47.920 that strike situation anymore. They just want to sit at 2:28:47.959 --> 2:28:49.840 home and not do work right, which is kind of 2:28:49.879 --> 2:28:53.320 what a strike can be. But to keep people on 2:28:53.440 --> 2:28:55.920 the picket lines and to keep in contact with them 2:28:56.000 --> 2:28:58.840 because they're coming on campus or you know, at the 2:28:58.920 --> 2:29:02.879 workplace every day, you have to make it like pleasant 2:29:02.959 --> 2:29:05.120 to be there. And so that that was one of 2:29:05.160 --> 2:29:06.879 the things that I learned from one of those pickets, 2:29:06.920 --> 2:29:10.280 where like you aren't doing any community building, Like your 2:29:10.360 --> 2:29:13.039 community building is a single basketball hoop that you brought 2:29:13.120 --> 2:29:16.080 and you put on the parking lot, and like that's 2:29:16.200 --> 2:29:18.960 not enough. You have to do like food, you have 2:29:19.120 --> 2:29:20.760 to do some kind of rest, you have to do 2:29:20.879 --> 2:29:22.959 some kind of art. So in one of the other 2:29:23.080 --> 2:29:27.879 pickets that I participated in, there was like chalking everywhere 2:29:27.959 --> 2:29:30.480 we were playing we were making like you know, like 2:29:30.640 --> 2:29:33.320 a monopoly board, but like you would just be losing 2:29:33.360 --> 2:29:36.360 two hundred dollars every time you passed a step and 2:29:36.480 --> 2:29:39.400 things like that. Right, you have to let people express 2:29:39.480 --> 2:29:41.800 themselves in this way for them to keep coming back 2:29:41.879 --> 2:29:44.760 and back and being engaged, for you to be able 2:29:44.800 --> 2:29:47.240 to facilitate conversations as to ask like, hey, what do 2:29:47.320 --> 2:29:49.280 you think about the contract? Hey, what do you want 2:29:49.280 --> 2:29:53.600 to do? I think community building is the most important thing, 2:29:53.680 --> 2:29:56.080 and that can be online, but it also should have 2:29:56.200 --> 2:29:58.720 an in person component to it. Yeah, I think that's 2:29:58.760 --> 2:30:04.359 pretty well said. Fun is a way like like intentionally 2:30:04.560 --> 2:30:08.320 making time and space and energy for having fun as 2:30:08.360 --> 2:30:11.120 a community and just like doing things that are just 2:30:11.320 --> 2:30:14.600 like like this is because all of us need to 2:30:14.720 --> 2:30:17.480 eat and all of us need to break. Like that 2:30:17.720 --> 2:30:21.880 is a way to like keep up your to like 2:30:22.040 --> 2:30:27.039 keep up your stamina and like help people keep up 2:30:27.080 --> 2:30:31.400 your stamina for something taxing like a strike, and also 2:30:31.640 --> 2:30:35.280 like to help people find the kind of meaning that 2:30:35.680 --> 2:30:39.200 helps them like want to come back and continue devoting 2:30:39.360 --> 2:30:46.040 energy to the thing. And yeah that I just wanted 2:30:46.080 --> 2:30:50.560 to echo that like that, like it was only through 2:30:51.160 --> 2:30:55.000 like finding this group that I was able to like 2:30:56.280 --> 2:31:01.080 find people of similar minds on It was not in 2:31:01.200 --> 2:31:06.240 the like UAW department organizing committee meetings that I could 2:31:06.320 --> 2:31:09.760 find like minds on this our picket, I don't think 2:31:09.879 --> 2:31:13.640 ever like like died off like other pickets did, and 2:31:14.520 --> 2:31:16.920 our picket I'm referring to, like most of the other 2:31:17.160 --> 2:31:20.080 people here, we were together on one picket. Part of 2:31:20.160 --> 2:31:23.800 that is because we were allowing like space for so 2:31:23.920 --> 2:31:28.440 many different activities to do. Like there is one person 2:31:28.520 --> 2:31:31.200 in my department who kept coming despite my department being 2:31:31.280 --> 2:31:35.280 like really politically disengaged, because we had like a button 2:31:35.360 --> 2:31:37.560 maker and we could make buttons, and he was like, Hey, 2:31:37.760 --> 2:31:40.760 this is fun. I'm just gonna like continue drawing buttons 2:31:40.800 --> 2:31:42.960 for people. I like doing that. And it was like, 2:31:44.640 --> 2:31:46.720 go for it, you know, like as long as you're here, 2:31:46.760 --> 2:31:48.920 as long as we can communicate with you and like 2:31:50.720 --> 2:31:53.320 hear your opinions and see what you want to out 2:31:53.360 --> 2:31:55.880 of the contract, and you keep on coming, Like we 2:31:56.080 --> 2:31:58.800 love that. You know, Like if you allow space for 2:31:58.920 --> 2:32:00.960 different people to do different things, if there's like a 2:32:01.040 --> 2:32:03.800 diversity of tactics, I think you're going to get people 2:32:03.879 --> 2:32:06.120 a lot more engaged than if you have this like 2:32:06.760 --> 2:32:09.920 top down, like, no, we should only be preventing people 2:32:10.000 --> 2:32:12.760 from parking here, we should only be shouting at students 2:32:13.000 --> 2:32:15.000 to not go to class like they has to be 2:32:15.080 --> 2:32:18.000 a diversity of tactics. That will be a good time 2:32:18.000 --> 2:32:19.920 I think for us to explain exactly what dollar lunch 2:32:19.959 --> 2:32:22.960 club is and what it does. So does someone want 2:32:23.000 --> 2:32:25.920 to take take on explaining that a dollar and lunch 2:32:25.959 --> 2:32:29.320 club is very much like I would say, ground up 2:32:29.720 --> 2:32:35.480 organizing tactics. I guess it's it's everything is sort of 2:32:35.520 --> 2:32:39.480 collectively decided in a weekly meeting, and in the past 2:32:39.600 --> 2:32:43.720 quarter it's it's been lunch. It's we've been providing lunch 2:32:44.040 --> 2:32:50.320 for UM. It's targeted at grad students, but really welcoming 2:32:50.400 --> 2:32:56.200 all of all community members regardless of like affiliation with UCSD, 2:32:56.400 --> 2:32:59.720 although it's mostly UCSD students, been grad students that have 2:32:59.800 --> 2:33:03.920 been attending. But um, we've been doing lunch for a 2:33:04.040 --> 2:33:08.880 dollar two to three times a week in different places 2:33:09.360 --> 2:33:13.720 on the UCSD campus, sort of like a Some of 2:33:13.800 --> 2:33:16.600 it is just lunches. Of it is sort of like 2:33:18.160 --> 2:33:21.720 ad hoc catering I would say, of different kinds of 2:33:23.000 --> 2:33:31.320 organizing efforts, or like interdepartmental lunches, So it's not it's 2:33:31.400 --> 2:33:35.640 not totally fixed in terms of location or affiliation, and 2:33:36.240 --> 2:33:43.440 all of the members are doing this totally voluntarily, and 2:33:44.120 --> 2:33:47.200 the one dollar that we collect for the lunches, or 2:33:47.520 --> 2:33:52.080 or greater donations if community members want UM go straight 2:33:52.120 --> 2:33:57.080 into UM just sustaining the lunch project and groceries and 2:33:58.160 --> 2:34:01.200 but mostly Yeah, there's been a lot of efforts to 2:34:01.320 --> 2:34:05.680 sort of diversify and make the make our lunches as 2:34:05.760 --> 2:34:12.400 sustainable cost wise as possible. So this last quarter, folks 2:34:12.480 --> 2:34:16.520 have been working with the Food Recovery Network to sort 2:34:16.560 --> 2:34:21.720 of supply some of the ingredients. It is very much 2:34:22.200 --> 2:34:26.480 donate what you want. As Ken said, we generally suggested 2:34:26.560 --> 2:34:30.480 dollar donation, but it's I think one of our signs 2:34:30.560 --> 2:34:34.360 says eat first, donate maybe, So it is very much 2:34:34.400 --> 2:34:36.800 pay what you want, pay what you can. Yeah, And 2:34:36.959 --> 2:34:41.760 I wanted to say, and like Matt was most directly 2:34:41.959 --> 2:34:44.920 involved in this transition, but what it grew out of 2:34:45.280 --> 2:34:52.240 was the fact that like the Humanity's Picket started doing 2:34:52.480 --> 2:34:59.840 daily lunches together and after the strike ended because of 2:35:00.120 --> 2:35:06.080 ratification vote UM, Uh, Matt and UH some other folks 2:35:06.400 --> 2:35:11.160 who had been doing those lunches were just like we 2:35:11.280 --> 2:35:15.760 should keep doing this. This feels good and right. And um, 2:35:16.840 --> 2:35:21.200 more of people like me jumped on afterwards. Um, and 2:35:21.879 --> 2:35:25.440 we all have been making it into this mutual leid 2:35:25.600 --> 2:35:30.920 thing for like we need to like you know, humanize 2:35:30.920 --> 2:35:34.320 ourselves to each other and like you know, shore up 2:35:34.400 --> 2:35:38.400 the like community bonds that we noticed we're missing. Um, 2:35:38.760 --> 2:35:41.480 so that way, maybe in the future, like people will 2:35:42.680 --> 2:35:46.080 care a little more about like people that maybe they 2:35:48.160 --> 2:35:51.720 couldn't care less about this time around. I want to 2:35:51.840 --> 2:35:54.280 just jump in and give credit where credit is due. 2:35:54.440 --> 2:36:00.640 Or An and Anna actually were the original eights of 2:36:00.879 --> 2:36:05.080 the strike food and I jumped on in day one 2:36:05.120 --> 2:36:08.160 because I knew for I used a professional cook for 2:36:08.200 --> 2:36:10.760 a while, I'm really in the food and I wanted 2:36:11.360 --> 2:36:15.200 to do that. And so I guess you could say 2:36:15.200 --> 2:36:18.080 it was the three of us, and then it expanded 2:36:18.160 --> 2:36:21.040 her fair fair, I don't I don't have my origin 2:36:21.200 --> 2:36:24.120 story nailed down. Yeah, you got to get it on, Pat. 2:36:24.160 --> 2:36:27.960 It's it's something I missed greatly from like leftist organizing 2:36:28.000 --> 2:36:31.600 in certainly in like southern Europe, which is you know 2:36:31.640 --> 2:36:33.240 where I spent a lot of my life, Like you're 2:36:33.240 --> 2:36:36.600 always well fed at anything where you're in Spain or 2:36:36.640 --> 2:36:41.040 Italy or even in France and like American labor organizing 2:36:41.080 --> 2:36:44.040 black set, so it's cool to see you guys doing it. Yeah. 2:36:44.320 --> 2:36:47.240 Kind of to summarize what Alex was saying. For me, 2:36:47.560 --> 2:36:51.400 the goal is very much too from one is food justice. 2:36:51.760 --> 2:36:55.520 Um so food for everyone. I think everyone should have it. 2:36:55.720 --> 2:36:58.640 It's great to hear that that's kind of a building 2:36:58.800 --> 2:37:01.199 thing in Europe. I didn't know that, but it sounds 2:37:01.360 --> 2:37:04.840 pretty on brand. Disappointingly, that is not the case here. 2:37:04.879 --> 2:37:09.120 So yeah, everyone needs food, So that's that's one goal. 2:37:09.280 --> 2:37:11.920 And then for me, the other goal is to get 2:37:11.959 --> 2:37:16.120 people talking across departments. So I think a big issue 2:37:16.200 --> 2:37:20.560 in the strike was that some departments were paid much 2:37:20.640 --> 2:37:24.640 more than others, and I think for that reason, the 2:37:24.760 --> 2:37:27.800 ones who were paid more were often less radical because 2:37:27.879 --> 2:37:31.000 they were kind of already slightly more comfortable. Of course, 2:37:31.080 --> 2:37:33.160 no one has paid a huge amount as a grad student, 2:37:33.320 --> 2:37:38.720 but they had. I guess you can say more to lose, 2:37:39.480 --> 2:37:45.680 and maybe we're less pressed to urgently start earning more. 2:37:46.360 --> 2:37:50.360 And of course accessibility needs and there are many other considerations. Basically, 2:37:50.600 --> 2:37:54.600 if you're already somewhat comfortable with your living situation, you're 2:37:54.920 --> 2:37:59.039 less likely to be super radical, and so I think 2:37:59.360 --> 2:38:03.720 just not even being in the same spheres together, people 2:38:03.879 --> 2:38:07.920 in those more comfortable departments kind of did not really 2:38:08.200 --> 2:38:10.840 have any reason to interact with people in the less 2:38:10.879 --> 2:38:14.480 comfortable departments, and they just didn't see them at all. 2:38:14.680 --> 2:38:18.400 And so, just like what Alex is saying, that food 2:38:18.520 --> 2:38:20.760 is a way to humanize us all to each other. 2:38:21.400 --> 2:38:24.240 It's very hard to have everyone in the same room 2:38:24.320 --> 2:38:28.440 together without you know, seeing and talking to each other. 2:38:29.440 --> 2:38:32.320 So food was away for us to do that, and 2:38:32.440 --> 2:38:35.800 I thought that that was a really important, continued, slow 2:38:35.920 --> 2:38:39.920 moving goal. So weekly lunches are away for us to 2:38:40.080 --> 2:38:43.440 invite people from across the campus and say, hey, there's 2:38:43.480 --> 2:38:46.360 free food here and it's also really good, so you 2:38:46.400 --> 2:38:48.840 should come by and eat them. And while you're here, 2:38:49.160 --> 2:38:52.240 talk to some students from the Humanities department and recognize 2:38:52.320 --> 2:38:54.400 that they have real needs and they are people too, 2:38:54.879 --> 2:38:57.520 And maybe next time you vote you should keep their 2:38:58.360 --> 2:39:02.360 thoughts in mind, UM and vote a little bit less 2:39:02.560 --> 2:39:06.400 selfishly if you can. UM. So that that's what it 2:39:06.640 --> 2:39:10.920 is for me. I think getting a little deeper and 2:39:11.000 --> 2:39:13.800 dig a little deeper into the origin of like how 2:39:13.879 --> 2:39:18.760 this all started. My department has been like very suspicious, 2:39:18.879 --> 2:39:23.400 I guess of the the UAW previous efforts for fair 2:39:23.640 --> 2:39:27.199 for fair reasons, you know, um, And so in terms 2:39:27.240 --> 2:39:32.080 of getting folks out to strike and then also to 2:39:32.240 --> 2:39:34.440 be on the picket line, it was definitely a struggle, 2:39:34.800 --> 2:39:38.400 not just not really so much in that folks didn't 2:39:38.440 --> 2:39:44.560 believe in the cause, but they were like pretty aware that, um, 2:39:45.920 --> 2:39:50.760 you know, as as literature students, you're not the university 2:39:51.120 --> 2:39:56.760 or the union's priority. Um, you know, because humanity's you 2:39:56.840 --> 2:40:02.480 know that, you know that trend, right, And so there 2:40:02.600 --> 2:40:07.920 was also a lot of the whole strike pay systems 2:40:08.080 --> 2:40:10.200 scared a lot of folks, and it was like I 2:40:10.360 --> 2:40:16.520 have to switch from this, you know, like different kind 2:40:16.560 --> 2:40:21.480 of labor, which is not really about me physically being 2:40:21.560 --> 2:40:24.600 in a place for twenty hours a week, into this 2:40:24.840 --> 2:40:28.119 labor that is like me walking around for twenty hours 2:40:28.160 --> 2:40:30.760 a week in order to make sure that I am 2:40:30.840 --> 2:40:35.200 not going to go broke. And basically there was not 2:40:35.400 --> 2:40:40.560 a funded There wasn't funded snacks or lunch by the UAW. 2:40:41.000 --> 2:40:45.920 And I had actually Matt and I or yeah, Matt 2:40:45.959 --> 2:40:48.600 and I had asked at an early meeting. I guess 2:40:48.640 --> 2:40:52.400 about getting a sort of like seed fund of like 2:40:52.520 --> 2:40:55.440 maybe fifty dollars to just get us rolling on the lunch, 2:40:56.040 --> 2:40:59.880 and the UAW staff was like, Nope, lunch is just 2:41:00.160 --> 2:41:05.280 not included in our budget. Sorry about that, Like, if 2:41:05.320 --> 2:41:07.119 you want to do that, you'll have to figure out 2:41:07.160 --> 2:41:11.240 how to get this organizing going on your own. And 2:41:11.560 --> 2:41:15.160 so part of doing the fundraising from the beginning was 2:41:15.480 --> 2:41:22.000 about that, and actually the strike food funds that I 2:41:22.120 --> 2:41:25.560 also want to throw some credit to Anna also as 2:41:25.680 --> 2:41:29.320 like one of the people that was like most focused 2:41:29.480 --> 2:41:36.119 on building sort of the fundraising materials and actively fundraising 2:41:36.240 --> 2:41:39.960 in different places and making sure that then ultimately in 2:41:40.120 --> 2:41:43.360 terms of being able to supply food lunch funds to 2:41:43.520 --> 2:41:46.800 other pickets. That was something that we started doing about 2:41:46.879 --> 2:41:50.560 midway through the strike because we had had some fundraising 2:41:50.600 --> 2:41:54.560 success and it was kind of crazy because it was 2:41:54.720 --> 2:41:58.080 I remember just like the last day of the strike itself, 2:41:58.760 --> 2:42:01.680 just being at another pick get where you know that 2:42:01.840 --> 2:42:06.760 had sort of developed more of its own like lunch culture, 2:42:07.959 --> 2:42:12.560 like using some of that like that fundraised cash and 2:42:12.720 --> 2:42:17.480 like also using efforts from other folks, but um, just 2:42:17.720 --> 2:42:20.400 the picket being like somebody at the picket being like 2:42:21.000 --> 2:42:23.960 Damn they got to get on that lunch thing next time. 2:42:24.080 --> 2:42:32.600 This was key And I was just like no, yeah, um, 2:42:32.920 --> 2:42:35.920 but yeah, like exactly the lunch is key, Like how 2:42:36.040 --> 2:42:38.640 you how are you going to expect to have people 2:42:39.240 --> 2:42:45.520 building community, you know, and you know the cheapest, the 2:42:46.160 --> 2:42:49.480 cheapest like lunch you can. I mean outside of basically 2:42:49.720 --> 2:42:52.320 during the strike, people were eating all of the food 2:42:52.560 --> 2:42:56.240 out of them the food co Op, which is another 2:42:56.360 --> 2:43:00.560 community group that supplies food on campus. Um, but outside 2:43:00.600 --> 2:43:02.680 of that, pretty much there is not a meal to 2:43:02.800 --> 2:43:06.359 be had on campus for less than like thirteen dollars 2:43:06.480 --> 2:43:12.800 without packs. So yeah, that's that's about that, Alex. Can 2:43:12.879 --> 2:43:16.240 I add something like before you just like a tiny thing? 2:43:16.560 --> 2:43:19.240 Based on Ken's point, I was going to say, at 2:43:19.320 --> 2:43:21.560 one point, I think it was week two or week 2:43:21.640 --> 2:43:23.720 three of the strike, we were making so much food. 2:43:23.760 --> 2:43:26.360 We were feeding like probably one hundred people, and then 2:43:26.440 --> 2:43:29.000 we would have leftovers and we would literally walk the 2:43:29.120 --> 2:43:33.560 leftovers or to the other pickets, and it surprised me 2:43:33.720 --> 2:43:36.160 so much that the other picket would just be eating 2:43:36.280 --> 2:43:40.600 like chips and donuts, and here I am like dropping 2:43:40.720 --> 2:43:45.160 off like cooked you know, like being burritos or like 2:43:45.400 --> 2:43:49.000 salads or things like that, like actual food for them. 2:43:49.360 --> 2:43:52.240 So like, to me, this was like not even a 2:43:52.320 --> 2:43:55.040 failure on the uaw's part. It was like very intentional 2:43:55.160 --> 2:43:58.640 of like, well you're kind of on your own, you know, 2:43:58.840 --> 2:44:01.880 So that's like the power of food to me is like, 2:44:02.760 --> 2:44:07.040 well fed people are going to keep coming back, you know, 2:44:07.200 --> 2:44:10.120 people that don't have to spend like a bunch of 2:44:10.200 --> 2:44:13.680 money on getting like donuts. I don't I don't think 2:44:13.720 --> 2:44:16.480 they're going to keep coming back, you know. Yeah. What 2:44:16.840 --> 2:44:20.879 Ken was saying earlier about props to Anna, nobody moves 2:44:21.040 --> 2:44:24.080 a second hand insta pot in San Diego County without 2:44:24.160 --> 2:44:27.920 Anna knowing about it is one of our group jokes. 2:44:30.040 --> 2:44:36.280 Yeah I love you, yeah, um, but yeah, I wanted 2:44:36.320 --> 2:44:42.720 to offer some contrast to like, uh, how uh like 2:44:43.000 --> 2:44:48.440 the other folks's departments have been, um, like have been 2:44:48.720 --> 2:44:52.360 responsive to things and like what the attitudes are. Um. 2:44:52.600 --> 2:44:56.880 So I am in the computer science department. Uh, we 2:44:57.040 --> 2:45:02.400 have plenty of money comparatively, um and we are I 2:45:02.520 --> 2:45:06.280 think steps with the previous steps were like steps eight 2:45:06.320 --> 2:45:09.720 and nine, um, and we organize a lot with like 2:45:09.879 --> 2:45:14.560 the Electrical engineering department, which is like step like also 2:45:14.720 --> 2:45:18.200 like steps seven to eight nine, um. And I remember 2:45:18.400 --> 2:45:22.800 very vividly this town hall we had before the ratification 2:45:22.920 --> 2:45:27.880 vote got announced, where like, uh, there was some temperature 2:45:28.000 --> 2:45:31.720 checking about like how does everybody feel about this, um, 2:45:32.240 --> 2:45:35.280 like if we if we put this up for a vote, um, 2:45:35.360 --> 2:45:39.080 and everybody was just like, uh, you know, it looks 2:45:39.080 --> 2:45:41.840 all right to me. I think, I, uh, this like 2:45:43.480 --> 2:45:46.280 you know, not not incredible, but like I'd be able 2:45:46.360 --> 2:45:50.320 to handle this. And then I come in and get 2:45:50.400 --> 2:45:55.160 my turn and go like, guys, Um, everything I'm hearing 2:45:55.280 --> 2:45:59.480 from the other side of campus is them panicking and 2:45:59.760 --> 2:46:03.840 very upsets. Um. I don't think we should do this 2:46:04.080 --> 2:46:07.160 if the rest of the campus is panicking and upsets 2:46:07.959 --> 2:46:14.120 And I was just like not heard and kind of 2:46:14.200 --> 2:46:23.320 ignored U. So yeah, UM. A lot of the community 2:46:23.440 --> 2:46:27.840 building stuff, like when we talk about like trying to 2:46:28.040 --> 2:46:34.680 get people to like humanize like other people that they 2:46:34.760 --> 2:46:39.240 didn't seem to care about. UM, we're talking about like 2:46:41.240 --> 2:46:45.520 the departments that didn't need as much help like some 2:46:45.760 --> 2:46:51.760 of mine. And like the strike for me personally was 2:46:52.160 --> 2:46:58.120 like it definitely transformed a lot of like my friendships 2:47:00.080 --> 2:47:07.320 or that reason, because like I don't know how to 2:47:07.560 --> 2:47:12.720 be friends with people that are like I see and 2:47:13.000 --> 2:47:16.680 hear that the people that you're talking to, I see 2:47:16.720 --> 2:47:19.720 and hear that you're talking to people who are absolutely 2:47:19.840 --> 2:47:23.760 freaking the hell out because like, we'll have struck for 2:47:23.959 --> 2:47:27.560 six weeks or so and they'll still be poor. But like, 2:47:29.240 --> 2:47:31.880 I don't know how to be friends after that. I 2:47:32.080 --> 2:47:34.320 just wanted to catch a little bit more on the 2:47:34.480 --> 2:47:41.600 idea of feeding strikers and the massive logistical boon that 2:47:41.760 --> 2:47:45.360 that was for a movement. Does anybody we call offhand 2:47:45.760 --> 2:47:49.560 how many weeks to strike went on? Oor, say six 2:47:49.840 --> 2:47:52.320 u AW rules who were in order to twentify for 2:47:52.400 --> 2:47:56.480 strike pay, we needed to have twenty hours of striking 2:47:56.520 --> 2:48:00.880 a week, So that boiled down to three ships. You 2:48:01.040 --> 2:48:03.760 could do them every you know, you could do two 2:48:03.800 --> 2:48:06.640 in one day and one another day. But by and large, 2:48:07.160 --> 2:48:09.360 at least most of the people on I Paint were there, 2:48:10.200 --> 2:48:12.600 you know, five days a week. But let's just say 2:48:12.920 --> 2:48:16.240 you got three ships. Lunch, as we've already established at 2:48:16.280 --> 2:48:21.080 the UC San Diego campus, is around thirteen dollars a person, right, 2:48:21.520 --> 2:48:25.080 So that's thirty nine dollars you're spending just on lunch, 2:48:25.760 --> 2:48:29.280 not on gas, which for me is quite expensive because 2:48:29.280 --> 2:48:33.879 they live somewhat far from campus, So thirty nine times 2:48:34.040 --> 2:48:38.040 six is two hundred and thirty four dollars. And when 2:48:38.120 --> 2:48:43.160 we struck for for these these high wages, you know 2:48:43.600 --> 2:48:45.840 that was worth it. We put in our effort and 2:48:45.920 --> 2:48:48.160 I sweat, But at the end of the day, those 2:48:48.200 --> 2:48:50.679 of us in the arts and humanities and the ass 2:48:51.440 --> 2:48:55.760 are seeing this year two hundred dollars base for a month, 2:48:56.040 --> 2:49:01.680 So just in our lunch that would have obviated the 2:49:01.840 --> 2:49:05.879 raises that we got during the strike. So I think, 2:49:05.959 --> 2:49:10.160 you know, this show's really the necessity or a mutual 2:49:10.280 --> 2:49:14.560 aid in workers' movements like this, because you know, we 2:49:14.720 --> 2:49:17.160 we if nobody else is going to beat us, we 2:49:17.280 --> 2:49:20.760 have to beat ourselves. Yeah, I think that's pretty It's 2:49:20.760 --> 2:49:23.039 good to put numbers on it, like it's a serious 2:49:23.040 --> 2:49:26.240 expensive it's not getting any cheaper. Another way that I 2:49:26.360 --> 2:49:29.600 see this is it's not just for workers, like the 2:49:29.720 --> 2:49:32.160 way that I see what Dollar Lunch Club is doing 2:49:32.320 --> 2:49:36.640 biased saying hey, we will provide either free or very 2:49:36.720 --> 2:49:42.200 cheap a dollar, you know, for lunch on these days 2:49:42.240 --> 2:49:46.000 of the week, basically every week. Whoever wants to come 2:49:46.080 --> 2:49:48.960 can come, whoever wants to help can help go for it. 2:49:49.200 --> 2:49:51.640 That to me is basically like a soup kitchen, like 2:49:51.800 --> 2:49:54.440 it is a The way that I see it is 2:49:54.640 --> 2:50:01.680 it's like a communist anarchist type project of like I'm 2:50:01.720 --> 2:50:04.200 not sure if I can say it's building power, but 2:50:04.320 --> 2:50:07.800 I feel that it's not just building community, but like 2:50:08.360 --> 2:50:12.840 allowing people to worry less about expenses, which means that 2:50:12.959 --> 2:50:16.400 they can put their energy into a lot of other things. 2:50:16.560 --> 2:50:19.480 Like the way that I would want Dollar Lunch Club 2:50:19.600 --> 2:50:22.600 to continue to evolve is that we would be able 2:50:22.680 --> 2:50:27.199 to offer lunch for, you know, people who can't afford 2:50:27.280 --> 2:50:30.480 the like twelve dollars campus lunches every day of the week, 2:50:30.879 --> 2:50:36.160 all week. Like imagining the difference of you know, like, okay, 2:50:36.240 --> 2:50:39.280 there's ten weeks in a quarter, five days in a week, 2:50:39.400 --> 2:50:42.800 so like fifty days that like you might be buying 2:50:42.959 --> 2:50:45.320 lunch at least half of those days. The difference of 2:50:45.520 --> 2:50:49.360 one dollar lunch versus like ten dollars lunch is like 2:50:49.840 --> 2:50:52.920 hundreds of dollars, right, So to me, if we can 2:50:53.040 --> 2:50:56.600 provide that, you know, as we grow in time to 2:50:57.360 --> 2:51:00.760 all five days of the week, you know, on several 2:51:00.879 --> 2:51:03.840 locations on campus, and we provide that for a couple 2:51:03.920 --> 2:51:07.320 of hundred students or community members or what have you. 2:51:07.400 --> 2:51:10.560 We will be making a material difference in these people's lives, 2:51:10.920 --> 2:51:12.840 and we will be showing them a different way that 2:51:13.600 --> 2:51:17.320 like organizing or not even just organizing, but like that 2:51:18.000 --> 2:51:21.920 accessibility to food can be organized. If that makes sense 2:51:22.080 --> 2:51:25.560 that it doesn't, you know, like getting food doesn't have 2:51:25.720 --> 2:51:29.879 to be this like capitalist project of like I am 2:51:30.120 --> 2:51:32.920 ordering this sort of thing and I am getting this back. 2:51:33.080 --> 2:51:37.120 It can be like the more along the terms of 2:51:37.280 --> 2:51:39.920 like what we're doing, which is like we are seeing 2:51:40.160 --> 2:51:42.720 what food has been donated to the pantry that we 2:51:42.879 --> 2:51:45.959 work a lot with the Basic Needs Hub, the food 2:51:46.040 --> 2:51:49.760 pantry and so on to get a bunch of like 2:51:49.920 --> 2:51:53.440 donated produce out of which we make foods. Right, so 2:51:53.520 --> 2:51:57.439 we're reducing food waste. We're trying to you know, contribute 2:51:57.440 --> 2:52:01.200 to like food justice, making food as free as cheap 2:52:01.280 --> 2:52:04.600 as possible and allowing people to be like, hey, actually 2:52:04.720 --> 2:52:08.039 the cafeterias that you see on campus, you getting lunch 2:52:08.120 --> 2:52:10.880 doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to 2:52:11.600 --> 2:52:14.280 you know, like you pay you know, like two bucks 2:52:14.360 --> 2:52:18.240 for an apple or things like that. And then another 2:52:18.360 --> 2:52:22.040 thing that occasionally we've been doing is also foraging. So 2:52:22.680 --> 2:52:27.160 here in southern California, there's a lot of edible non 2:52:27.240 --> 2:52:33.160 native species such as like mustard, curly doc wild radish, 2:52:33.480 --> 2:52:36.840 things like that, and so we can like forage those 2:52:36.920 --> 2:52:39.400 and even make food out of them along with food 2:52:39.480 --> 2:52:42.960 from the food pantry. So, I you know, not that 2:52:43.080 --> 2:52:45.840 we're really doing this right now, but my dream would 2:52:45.879 --> 2:52:48.840 be to really kind of revolutionize the way that food 2:52:48.920 --> 2:52:54.720 culture is in UCSC and show people like, no, it 2:52:54.840 --> 2:52:56.880 can't be a food kitchen where you don't have to 2:52:57.000 --> 2:53:00.800 like expressly worry about where you're getting your your meal 2:53:00.920 --> 2:53:03.680 the next day. You don't have to pay three dollars 2:53:03.800 --> 2:53:06.000 for a banana, you don't have to do any of that. 2:53:06.680 --> 2:53:09.320 You can have like a better future you can't have 2:53:09.560 --> 2:53:13.080 like a better experience at the university or just like 2:53:13.200 --> 2:53:15.680 in life in general. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a 2:53:16.560 --> 2:53:18.720 that's really no. I know, like I teach the community 2:53:18.760 --> 2:53:21.640 college sometimes, so it's a little different from the UC 2:53:21.879 --> 2:53:25.040 but maybe not as different as people might imagine. And 2:53:26.000 --> 2:53:29.040 like one thing that I've noticed, like I always have 2:53:29.120 --> 2:53:31.959 food in my office and a lot of my students 2:53:32.000 --> 2:53:34.160 are in food procarity and have been for a while, 2:53:34.280 --> 2:53:37.080 and like certainly around like the time of the fucking 2:53:37.200 --> 2:53:39.880 travel band when when people's parents were stuck outside the 2:53:39.920 --> 2:53:43.840 country and they defend for themselves. It's a way that 2:53:44.040 --> 2:53:46.440 like we can move from this moment of alien nation, 2:53:46.560 --> 2:53:49.840 which is like you know, your interaction with pandor express 2:53:50.680 --> 2:53:53.640 where you give money and you get a box of 2:53:53.680 --> 2:53:57.240 food you eat by yourself, to like a moment of solidarity, 2:53:57.560 --> 2:54:00.560 which is cool. Um, yeah, it's great. You're foraging too. 2:54:00.959 --> 2:54:02.600 I want to do a foraging episode one day, so 2:54:02.600 --> 2:54:06.280 I'll have to have you back for that. I want 2:54:06.320 --> 2:54:08.880 to like finish up maybe by just talking about some 2:54:09.000 --> 2:54:14.000 logistical stuff. And anarchists have been feeding people communists or 2:54:14.040 --> 2:54:16.480 leftists or whatever like for quite a long time, right, 2:54:16.560 --> 2:54:20.000 like I can. Some of my best food memories are 2:54:20.200 --> 2:54:24.560 like eating beans with people, you know, like food not 2:54:24.680 --> 2:54:27.879 bombs things. At the I do a lot of work 2:54:27.920 --> 2:54:30.440 with refugees, so like food not bomb things in twenty 2:54:30.480 --> 2:54:34.320 eighteen with a migrant caravan, or people making pancakes at 2:54:34.360 --> 2:54:36.720 the G eight protest in the early two thousands. Like 2:54:36.800 --> 2:54:39.320 some of my best memories not of just food, but 2:54:39.440 --> 2:54:44.040 like of forming community around food. So like when you're 2:54:44.080 --> 2:54:47.880 doing this stuff, like it's there only if someone wants 2:54:47.879 --> 2:54:49.400 to someone here is they say like, hell, yeah, I 2:54:49.400 --> 2:54:51.080 want to do that on my campus, at my workplace, 2:54:51.160 --> 2:54:54.800 in my town whatever. Like logistically it sounds like you 2:54:54.920 --> 2:54:57.600 guys have a corner on the insta pot market. But like, 2:54:58.320 --> 2:55:00.560 aside from that, like a cooking vegan food so it's 2:55:00.600 --> 2:55:03.720 it's more accessible for more people. You know, what kind 2:55:03.720 --> 2:55:06.240 of stuff like that would you advise for people? I 2:55:06.360 --> 2:55:09.520 can jump in on this, ye, cooking cooking to scale 2:55:10.000 --> 2:55:13.879 is an entirely different beast than cooking for yourself at home. 2:55:14.320 --> 2:55:20.959 And um, you've already identified beans as being really legumes 2:55:21.560 --> 2:55:25.640 and grains bought in bulk machine kind of a surprise 2:55:25.760 --> 2:55:28.560 to anybody who who's thought about it for ever a 2:55:28.640 --> 2:55:31.120 hot second that that when you buy in bulk, it's 2:55:31.160 --> 2:55:36.560 far cheaper, but it also comes with downsides like when 2:55:36.600 --> 2:55:39.960 you're soaking beans, you often you know, have to soak 2:55:40.040 --> 2:55:43.720 those beans a long time ahead of time. Um, And 2:55:44.879 --> 2:55:47.240 what we have been doing, which I think that my 2:55:47.720 --> 2:55:51.280 my comrades have touched on, is sourcing from a great 2:55:51.400 --> 2:56:00.520 variety of local food banks and barns and donation both 2:56:00.600 --> 2:56:04.320 during the strike and afterwards. One thing that I would 2:56:04.400 --> 2:56:08.280 say we struggled with in the initial phases of Dollar 2:56:08.400 --> 2:56:11.960 Lunch Club when we were still actively striking, was that 2:56:12.400 --> 2:56:14.640 you know, the absolute best of goodwill in the world. 2:56:15.000 --> 2:56:20.120 Everybody wanted to donate foodstuffs, um, and that meant that 2:56:20.160 --> 2:56:23.720 our meal planning was was significantly harder because you know, 2:56:23.800 --> 2:56:26.520 we have half a can of tomato paste and we 2:56:26.640 --> 2:56:29.800 have twenty five cans of pinto beans and you know, 2:56:30.320 --> 2:56:37.560 ten bulbs of pentel and three crackers. Like definitely, we 2:56:37.920 --> 2:56:43.160 found that it was easier to solicit both cash financially, 2:56:43.320 --> 2:56:47.200 you know, setting up what's what's it called a venmo 2:56:47.840 --> 2:56:52.760 um and also you know for people who can't give money, um, 2:56:53.640 --> 2:56:57.040 we put them to work. And and that was you know, 2:56:57.120 --> 2:56:59.360 because people want to help, and we felt kind of 2:56:59.400 --> 2:57:02.440 bad after while turning people away, who are you offering 2:57:02.480 --> 2:57:04.520 to go to the store. And at one point in 2:57:04.520 --> 2:57:07.080 the strikeway, I think we got like twenty five prepackaged 2:57:07.160 --> 2:57:09.240 Indian meals which we ended up giving out to people 2:57:09.720 --> 2:57:12.040 for lunch. But as far as feeding people on site, 2:57:14.320 --> 2:57:17.280 you know, being very specific about what kinds of things 2:57:17.360 --> 2:57:20.960 you're looking for ahead of time, meal planning in a 2:57:21.240 --> 2:57:26.160 well in advance with a sort of basic framework of okay, 2:57:26.280 --> 2:57:29.600 we got a bean and we got a starch what 2:57:29.840 --> 2:57:33.320 we have to throw into the bean pot. The last 2:57:33.360 --> 2:57:37.920 thing I would say is as as Anna has rightly 2:57:38.000 --> 2:57:48.000 been champion for the actual cooking devices are super important too, 2:57:48.600 --> 2:57:51.440 and that was one of that has perpetually been one 2:57:51.480 --> 2:57:54.800 of our biggest struggles because you know, we don't have 2:57:54.840 --> 2:57:57.320 a call ender, so we can't drain the beans. And 2:57:57.640 --> 2:58:00.840 we have four insta pots, but they're different sizes, and 2:58:01.000 --> 2:58:03.760 the lives for two don't work with wear and tear. 2:58:04.920 --> 2:58:08.920 Stuff is you know, breaking right when you need it 2:58:09.000 --> 2:58:14.760 the most. So you know, if you are getting money donations, 2:58:15.320 --> 2:58:19.600 I think it's really important to budget for the pots 2:58:19.680 --> 2:58:23.280 and the pans and can openers and these kinds of 2:58:23.360 --> 2:58:26.160 things that really make a difference in getting Blue hot 2:58:26.440 --> 2:58:29.720 and out on time and large numbers. Yeah, I think 2:58:29.800 --> 2:58:32.440 that's very good advice. Maria had something to add. I 2:58:32.560 --> 2:58:35.320 have actually a lot of things to add logistics wise, 2:58:35.360 --> 2:58:38.800 because in our meetings we talk about some some some 2:58:39.920 --> 2:58:41.879 parts of this, and so one of the big things 2:58:41.959 --> 2:58:45.880 that we talked about over the strike but also after 2:58:46.040 --> 2:58:48.480 the strike when we were like, hey, let's let's continue 2:58:48.560 --> 2:58:51.520 this project, is how much of our things should be 2:58:51.680 --> 2:58:54.880 like reusable versus like disposable right. That was like a 2:58:54.959 --> 2:58:58.920 big topic of like, well, okay, we're using disposable forks, 2:58:59.200 --> 2:59:02.640 and we don't like that environmentally because we're putting like 2:59:02.720 --> 2:59:07.119 a bunch of plastic into you know, the trash, right, 2:59:07.280 --> 2:59:11.119 and we have to buy plastic each time. But then 2:59:11.240 --> 2:59:13.880 like we don't know, okay, you know, like should we 2:59:14.080 --> 2:59:16.440 should we buy like, you know, a bunch of metal spoons, 2:59:16.520 --> 2:59:18.160 but they're going to be a little bit more expensive 2:59:18.200 --> 2:59:20.640 than the disposable ones, but you know, maybe the costs 2:59:20.680 --> 2:59:23.640 will even out after a while, and like that. That 2:59:23.879 --> 2:59:26.560 kind of you know, discussion has to be had about 2:59:26.640 --> 2:59:29.760 like everything, so you know, about like bowls, about like 2:59:29.879 --> 2:59:32.680 the pans in which we cook in like mixing bowls, 2:59:32.760 --> 2:59:35.200 like all kinds of things like that where we're thinking, 2:59:35.320 --> 2:59:37.680 you know, like based on the funds that we have, 2:59:38.080 --> 2:59:40.880 based on our usage of some of these products, is 2:59:40.920 --> 2:59:43.920 it worth it getting you know, like reusable things, which 2:59:44.720 --> 2:59:47.680 unfortunately will have to like clean afterwards, so they add 2:59:47.720 --> 2:59:51.440 to the labor but thankfully they don't you know, pollute 2:59:51.440 --> 2:59:55.160 the environment and the way that disposable things do so 2:59:55.760 --> 2:59:59.879 for us, because we do care a lot about lowering 3:00:00.040 --> 3:00:04.000 our usage of plastic. We did pivot to using more 3:00:04.320 --> 3:00:07.520 reusable things. So I think for a group that may 3:00:07.560 --> 3:00:10.520 be interested in, you know, like facilitating something like this 3:00:10.640 --> 3:00:13.280 in their workplace or in their university or something like that, 3:00:13.680 --> 3:00:15.840 I think that is one important discussion that you want 3:00:15.879 --> 3:00:18.199 to have. What is the time course that you see 3:00:18.600 --> 3:00:21.520 of this project continuing and is it worth it getting 3:00:21.560 --> 3:00:26.600 you know, like reusable versus disposable tools for the people 3:00:26.680 --> 3:00:30.200 that possibly you're going to feed. Another thing that is 3:00:31.800 --> 3:00:37.400 related to this is when you're first starting to cook, 3:00:37.959 --> 3:00:41.240 really you're trying to borrow things from other people. So 3:00:41.440 --> 3:00:44.760 a lot of the things that like during the strike, 3:00:44.840 --> 3:00:47.880 we had just borrowed people's instapots, Like people brought in 3:00:47.959 --> 3:00:50.520 their instapots, they labeled them like, oh, this is you know, 3:00:50.680 --> 3:00:54.360 Dana's instapot, and then we use those instapots. After the strike, 3:00:54.440 --> 3:00:56.680 we couldn't do that anymore. But there were some people 3:00:56.800 --> 3:00:59.280 that were willing to be like, Hey, I'm actually like 3:00:59.440 --> 3:01:01.880 moving out and I'll donate all these tupperware to you. 3:01:02.000 --> 3:01:03.920 And so we took the tupperware and now we have 3:01:04.080 --> 3:01:07.240 like a little tupperware program where if people don't forget 3:01:07.280 --> 3:01:09.440 to bring their tupperware to put lunch in. We just 3:01:09.560 --> 3:01:11.880 like label it. You see a Z dollar lunch club, 3:01:11.920 --> 3:01:14.119 you see a mutual aid and we just give away 3:01:14.120 --> 3:01:16.680 the tupperware and oftentimes you know it's brought back to 3:01:16.800 --> 3:01:20.240 us that kind of thing, and that again facilitates food usage. 3:01:20.280 --> 3:01:22.680 So there's a lot of places where you can find 3:01:23.320 --> 3:01:28.760 things that you might need in this kind of thing, 3:01:28.879 --> 3:01:31.840 so can openers. I have found a bunch of jars 3:01:31.920 --> 3:01:34.480 that people you know, after they're moving away, they lead 3:01:34.560 --> 3:01:37.840 for free around graduate housing. So like there's a lot 3:01:37.879 --> 3:01:41.119 of things that you can get which don't really require 3:01:41.200 --> 3:01:44.120 funds for There's also buying nothing groups on Facebook that 3:01:44.200 --> 3:01:46.960 I think are particularly effective for this. So a lot 3:01:47.040 --> 3:01:48.800 of people that are just like, oh yeah, I'm like 3:01:48.920 --> 3:01:50.880 updating my kitchen, I'm throwing away a bunch of these 3:01:50.959 --> 3:01:53.560 utensils that you can just get for free. So that's 3:01:53.600 --> 3:01:56.080 been really helpful for us as well, and as someone 3:01:56.120 --> 3:01:57.840 who does a lot of sourcing as well, so we 3:01:57.959 --> 3:02:01.240 tend to shop from goodwill and other thrift stores to 3:02:01.800 --> 3:02:07.680 make sure that you know, are buying in the consumption 3:02:07.760 --> 3:02:11.880 of some of these tools is as ethical if you 3:02:11.959 --> 3:02:15.240 can call it that, as possible. And then a third 3:02:15.320 --> 3:02:17.480 thing that I would like to add for anyone who 3:02:17.560 --> 3:02:20.200 wants to, you know, start a project like this is 3:02:20.800 --> 3:02:23.400 I think you have to make it be fun for you, 3:02:23.680 --> 3:02:27.280 the person that's cooking and cleaning and organizing, apart from 3:02:27.360 --> 3:02:29.560 making it fun for everyone else who gets you know, 3:02:29.760 --> 3:02:34.000 like free food, cheap food, tasty food. Right. So, something 3:02:34.080 --> 3:02:36.520 that I really like about Dollar Lunch Club is that 3:02:36.640 --> 3:02:39.720 we've been really allowing our members to like run wild 3:02:39.800 --> 3:02:43.520 with the ideas that they have. Right So, for example, 3:02:44.800 --> 3:02:49.000 we Anna and I have been talking about utilizing all 3:02:49.080 --> 3:02:51.360 the frozen bread that has been donated to us and 3:02:51.560 --> 3:02:54.560 making French toast vegan French toast out of that. So 3:02:54.680 --> 3:02:57.880 we're really excited for doing something fun like that because 3:02:58.000 --> 3:03:01.280 usually in a lot of like Sue Kitchen places, you 3:03:02.320 --> 3:03:05.360 you have foods that are like, hey, this is nutritious, 3:03:05.440 --> 3:03:08.920 but you know, like I don't want to eat beans 3:03:09.160 --> 3:03:11.680 all day, and someone who like does like beans, but 3:03:11.800 --> 3:03:14.720 not everyone else wants to just eat you know, like 3:03:16.160 --> 3:03:18.360 mashed beans all day, that kind of thing. And so 3:03:18.879 --> 3:03:21.920 having a like a variety of things that we cook, 3:03:22.040 --> 3:03:26.080 like we pretty much like cook all kinds of curries, 3:03:26.240 --> 3:03:28.600 a lot of like rice dishes, a lot of stews, 3:03:29.600 --> 3:03:33.680 pesto and spaghetti like pasta, you know, just like all 3:03:34.360 --> 3:03:36.480 very different kinds of meals that make it fun for 3:03:36.560 --> 3:03:39.280 the people who are arriving. So, like I mentioned pesto, 3:03:39.360 --> 3:03:41.520 I made pesto a couple of times, and like a 3:03:41.600 --> 3:03:45.320 lot of people are like, ooh, pesto basil, that's gonna 3:03:45.360 --> 3:03:47.720 be great. And that was with like the forge mustard 3:03:47.760 --> 3:03:51.720 that I was talking about before, And like when you 3:03:51.840 --> 3:03:54.160 have that kind of variety and when you have like 3:03:54.400 --> 3:03:59.680 interesting fun foods, when you can like make boba in 3:04:00.040 --> 3:04:03.240 an install pot, or you could grab a toaster oven 3:04:03.280 --> 3:04:05.920 and make garlic bread, which is things that we've done, 3:04:06.360 --> 3:04:08.640 you make it a lot more fun for the people 3:04:08.720 --> 3:04:10.680 that are cooking as well, and it just becomes like 3:04:10.760 --> 3:04:13.960 a community building thing, not just for the people eating, 3:04:14.040 --> 3:04:17.800 but for the people doing that labor. So that's like, 3:04:17.959 --> 3:04:20.600 that's what I would advise people, Like, yes, you are 3:04:20.760 --> 3:04:24.560 under very tight budgetary constraints. We try to like for 3:04:24.720 --> 3:04:28.040 some meals, like because there's so much donations, sometimes there's 3:04:28.080 --> 3:04:30.640 zero dollars. Sometimes we have to buy things and we 3:04:30.800 --> 3:04:32.920 try to have it be less than twenty dollars so 3:04:33.040 --> 3:04:35.680 we can like feed thirty to forty people, and you 3:04:35.760 --> 3:04:39.760 can like have that you know, money that's donated for 3:04:39.959 --> 3:04:43.800 like one dollar. Have that be for like next time 3:04:43.920 --> 3:04:47.800 that kind of thing, did I Yeah, so like make 3:04:47.840 --> 3:04:50.840 it fun for yourself so you can like continue doing 3:04:50.920 --> 3:04:52.760 that work and you won't burn out in the way 3:04:52.840 --> 3:04:59.680 that you might otherwise even as you are trying to budget. Yeah. Yeah, 3:05:00.000 --> 3:05:04.680 I just wanted to say, um, Like, in terms of roles, Um, 3:05:05.080 --> 3:05:09.040 so we always have like somebody who like knows how 3:05:09.360 --> 3:05:15.360 to like pull a recipe together. More Um, we always 3:05:15.400 --> 3:05:19.040 have to have somebody who like does dish washing. And 3:05:19.400 --> 3:05:21.640 like each of these roles can have like one or 3:05:21.680 --> 3:05:25.080 two or three people in it in it and then 3:05:25.120 --> 3:05:28.640 there's always like people who just like do the like 3:05:28.920 --> 3:05:34.600 labor of prep um and um. Like, yeah, that could 3:05:34.600 --> 3:05:37.080 be all the same person and or it can be 3:05:37.360 --> 3:05:41.560 multiple for each um. And I want to say, usually 3:05:41.760 --> 3:05:45.760 I am a person who either like like I show 3:05:45.879 --> 3:05:49.360 up to peel veggies that people tell me need to 3:05:49.400 --> 3:05:53.080 be peeled, and I show up to wash dishes. Um, 3:05:53.879 --> 3:05:58.520 because I'm not a person who is like I have 3:05:58.720 --> 3:06:01.760 trouble making decisions about food. I do not want to 3:06:01.800 --> 3:06:04.400 be in charge of food stuff. And that has been 3:06:04.520 --> 3:06:10.640 like okay, And that has meant that like I do 3:06:10.840 --> 3:06:13.400 not have to like get nervous and worked up about 3:06:13.440 --> 3:06:15.880 like I don't know how to make decisions about food. 3:06:15.959 --> 3:06:19.080 Here I can just show up in peel carrots and 3:06:19.520 --> 3:06:24.240 it's like kind of helped me, um, like maybe get 3:06:24.240 --> 3:06:27.560 a little bit of a better feel for like cooking stuff. Um. 3:06:27.720 --> 3:06:31.240 So that way when I am like just cooking for myself, UM, 3:06:31.800 --> 3:06:34.440 I do just think of like, okay, if I was 3:06:35.680 --> 3:06:41.000 like if I was in you know, like dollar lunch 3:06:41.080 --> 3:06:43.520 prep mode, Um, I know I have rice, and I 3:06:43.600 --> 3:06:47.960 know I have beans, and so I'm set, um and 3:06:49.200 --> 3:06:53.360 uh yeah, and a lot a lot of times just 3:06:53.560 --> 3:06:58.000 like taking away the like the dirty dish bin and 3:06:58.160 --> 3:07:01.840 sort of like leaving out maybe like a few washed 3:07:01.959 --> 3:07:05.000 bowls by the sink along with a sponge and a 3:07:05.080 --> 3:07:08.039 bit of soap. People get the queue and they'll wash 3:07:08.120 --> 3:07:13.160 their on dishes. It's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think 3:07:13.200 --> 3:07:16.440 that's great. Actually having space for different skill sets and 3:07:16.640 --> 3:07:20.959 different preferences within your organizing is always key, okay, guys, 3:07:21.040 --> 3:07:23.840 And where can people find like if they want to 3:07:24.280 --> 3:07:28.280 ask you for bean recipes or follow along cepages whatever 3:07:28.360 --> 3:07:30.720 it is, like a dollar lunch club social media they 3:07:30.760 --> 3:07:33.080 can find or do you have individual ones you want 3:07:33.080 --> 3:07:37.560 to share? Uh so, I think Alex can talk about 3:07:37.680 --> 3:07:42.039 the website. I have a website. Yes, I made us. 3:07:42.120 --> 3:07:44.960 I made us a website. Um. So we are most 3:07:45.040 --> 3:07:49.440 active on Instagram. Un can put our handle in the 3:07:49.560 --> 3:07:56.160 chat is Dollar Underscore Lunch Underscore Club on Instagram. Um 3:07:57.000 --> 3:08:03.879 and yeah, the website is Dollar Lunch Club UCSD, separated 3:08:03.959 --> 3:08:08.400 by dashes and then dot get hub, dot io because 3:08:09.000 --> 3:08:11.680 you can get free domain names if it's your get 3:08:11.760 --> 3:08:18.400 hub user name. Hot tip of the day, but uh yeah, 3:08:18.600 --> 3:08:22.680 primarily on Instagram. Nice. Yeah, it's great. All right, Well, 3:08:22.760 --> 3:08:24.520 thank you very much for your time, guys. I already 3:08:24.520 --> 3:08:27.119 appreciate it, and yeah, I hope more people do the same, because, 3:08:27.440 --> 3:08:29.119 as you said, I think this is really important way 3:08:29.120 --> 3:08:36.080 to organize. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Hey, 3:08:36.200 --> 3:08:39.320 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:08:39.360 --> 3:08:41.920 now until the heat death of the universe. It could 3:08:41.959 --> 3:08:44.240 happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:08:44.400 --> 3:08:47.120 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3:08:47.200 --> 3:08:50.040 Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:08:50.080 --> 3:08:53.240 Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 3:08:53.280 --> 3:08:55.920 find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 3:08:56.000 --> 3:08:59.199 cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.