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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. A welcome back to

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Speaker 1: it could happen here a podcast about world stuff fallen apart,

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Speaker 1: putting it back together, all that good stuff. Today we're

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Speaker 1: actually covering something that's at the intersection of all of that,

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Speaker 1: both how fucked up things are and the attempt to

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Speaker 1: make them more just, more equitable, less nightmarish. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about war crimes, the International Criminal Court, and most specifically

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Speaker 1: the warrant that was just issued for Vladimir Putin's rest,

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Speaker 1: which is something you've probably heard about on the internet.

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Speaker 1: People have various takes on this in order to kind

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Speaker 1: of talk about what's actually been done, what it actually means,

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Speaker 1: and sort of the history of attempts to hold the

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Speaker 1: leaders of nations to account for war crimes. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to Nick Waters. Nick, Welcome to the show. Hi, Nick,

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Speaker 1: You and I have some connections outside of this. First off,

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Speaker 1: you're here on the show today because you work in

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Speaker 1: an investigatory investigative capacity. Geez, can you tell that I'm

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Speaker 1: not used to waking up this early for Bellingcat where

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Speaker 1: we both work together. Your focus has been primarily on

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Speaker 1: war crimes. You've been covering Ukraine lately, but you have

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Speaker 1: a pretty wide purview and a pretty wide base of experience,

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Speaker 1: including crimes in Libya, and yeah, I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to you a little bit. First off, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much, mate. In of behind the Bostons. I

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Speaker 1: have the largest knife I could find in this place

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Speaker 1: next to me. It's not quite machete, but yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I thought I should have one just in case.

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Speaker 1: That's that's good I've got um Well, yeah, I actually

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Speaker 1: am more or less knifeless here. I do have a

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Speaker 1: nine millimeter in the desk, but somewhat more limited span

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Speaker 1: of uses. Um now, Nick, you and I. You and

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Speaker 1: I have shared one of the strongest bonds that two

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Speaker 1: men can share, which is eating some really delicious a repas.

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Speaker 1: But um we we we also share an interest in

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Speaker 1: the somewhat difficult history of attempts from our species to

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Speaker 1: kind of grapple with the nature of war crimes, of

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Speaker 1: acts of genocide and hold people to account for them. Um.

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Speaker 1: I kind of think before we get into what's happened

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Speaker 1: with Putin, we should talk about what the ICC is

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Speaker 1: and what its history comes from, because this it actually

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Speaker 1: dates back a little over a hundred years attempts to

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Speaker 1: make the ICC. I think nineteen nineteen was the first

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Speaker 1: convention in which a number of European nations were like, boy,

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Speaker 1: we should really have some sort of court put together

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Speaker 1: to attempt to hold leaders and individuals to account for

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Speaker 1: committing war crimes. Yeah. I'm not that familiar with the

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Speaker 1: kind of the very long history of attempts at international justice.

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Speaker 1: Suffice to say that so far hasn't worked out quite

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Speaker 1: how I think everyone expects it to. That that is

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Speaker 1: the tl DR, the international justice good idea hasn't happened

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Speaker 1: yet pretty much. Yeah, I mean there's been lots of yeah,

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Speaker 1: lots of agreements obviously, kind of everyone knows Geneva Convention,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Lots of other agreements about how not to

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Speaker 1: kill people in the most horrific way as possible in war,

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Speaker 1: and you know, as part of that like room statue

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Speaker 1: which created the ICC. Yeah, it was green in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight. So yeah, it's been kind of like one

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Speaker 1: hundred years or sort of efforts before the ICC actually

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Speaker 1: got here. Yeah, auld probably also I need to say,

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Speaker 1: like before we kind of get going anything. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, which is super important because I know all

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Speaker 1: the lawyers out there will be like angry about it.

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Speaker 1: So Nick, I want to talk about what in particular

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Speaker 1: this decision means, because there's bit like obviously, I think

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Speaker 1: it's fair to say in the immediate term, probably nothing

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Speaker 1: like it's not like the International War and agents are

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Speaker 1: going to come out and arrest Vladimir in the Kremlin

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Speaker 1: or in his mansion that you see fake photoshopped images

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Speaker 1: of on Twitter all the time. But yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so in kind of like day to day stuff, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have that much an effect. So Russia doesn't

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Speaker 1: recognize the jury resdiction of the ICC. So it's not like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the FSB are going to storm into the

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Speaker 1: Kremlin and aar Resputin and like export him to the

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Speaker 1: Hague in a you know, different matter bag or something

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Speaker 1: that's that's not going to happen, um. But in other

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Speaker 1: ways it's it's a big deal in other ways. Um.

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Speaker 1: And also it's for me, like really the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: about this is that it's an indicator about how seriously

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Speaker 1: the ICC is taking taking this war. International justice moves

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Speaker 1: so slowly, you know, we're talking like you know, mentioned

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Speaker 1: in decades, so to having a restaurants out, yeah, in

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Speaker 1: one year is like a really big deal for the

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Speaker 1: ICEC at least. Yeah. And this is because if I'm

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Speaker 1: an that mistake in the both Putin and the woman,

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Speaker 1: because he's not the only one, by the way, that's

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Speaker 1: been been charged by the the ICC. UM. There's also

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna attempt to get her name right, Maria Lvova Belova,

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Speaker 1: who is the Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia. And

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Speaker 1: part of the reason why this has happened so rapidly

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Speaker 1: is that both Putin and Maria have made pretty unequivocal

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Speaker 1: statements about the removal of Ukrainian children from their families,

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Speaker 1: forced deportation into Russia, and adoption by Russian families, which

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Speaker 1: is that is a war crime, that is an act

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Speaker 1: of genocide. Yeah, so I think the actual crime is

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Speaker 1: on lawful deportation, or the actual citation is on n

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Speaker 1: awful deportation of Ukrainian children, which yes, could be arguably

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Speaker 1: and again at this point emphasized to lawyer, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think can feed into the kind of accusations of genocide.

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Speaker 1: And so it's a pretty big charge to level against

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Speaker 1: Putin and this commissioner this early on. I think it's

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Speaker 1: also like one of the easier ones as well, Like

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Speaker 1: in the view of the Russian States, this is a

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Speaker 1: you know, wonderful thing they're doing. They are essentially kind

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Speaker 1: of rescuing these children from and you can't see if

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Speaker 1: I'm doing air quotes right now, like Kinian Nazis educating

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Speaker 1: them and bring them up as Russian children, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're taking these children away from their culture, their families,

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Speaker 1: and their country to basically erase who they are, which

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Speaker 1: plays a quite a big part in the accusation that's

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Speaker 1: could be part of a act of GENOCIDEA yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to me Levova Belova has kind of

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Speaker 1: described this like her justification of this, and I think

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Speaker 1: the Russian states justification of this is both that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Ukrainians Nazis, and also I've I've heard claims from

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Speaker 1: her that like, well, we're removing children from a dangerous

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Speaker 1: war zone, which you know, that begs the question why

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Speaker 1: is it a dangerous war zone right now? Among other things.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things that's interesting to me is

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Speaker 1: that Levova Belova is not just part of the state

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Speaker 1: apparatus of carrying out this act, but has also thanked

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Speaker 1: Putin publicly for making it possible for her to adopt

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Speaker 1: a child from dun Bass, which is one of the

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Speaker 1: Russian occupied parts of Ukraine. So, yeah, it is it

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Speaker 1: is kind of interesting the stuff that had to fall

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Speaker 1: into place for this to be able to happen in

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Speaker 1: such an expeditious manner. Yeah, I think it helps that

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Speaker 1: they view all the Russian state views this act is

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Speaker 1: something that is beneficial and so they want to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: look we're rescuing these children. And you can see kind

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Speaker 1: of similar You've seen similar vibes with like basically stealing

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian cultural heritage from museums and stuff like that, they

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Speaker 1: or the Russian state believes, you know, that they are

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Speaker 1: doing the right thing, like we are very proud that

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Speaker 1: we have taken these objects away and we are saving

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Speaker 1: them again from Ukrainian Nazis. And so they make public

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Speaker 1: announcements about it, they say, yeah, we're doing the thing.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome, isn't it. Yeah, And so the result is

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of evidence that they're doing these pretty

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Speaker 1: bad things. And so yeah, there's there's quite lot of

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Speaker 1: evidence there. There are statements from his Commissioner for Children

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Speaker 1: from Peton, it's pretty clear what's happening. So it's quite

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Speaker 1: a I think it's quite an interesting charge to bring. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we're just so people are aware of the scale.

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Speaker 1: President Zelinsky, if Ukraine at least has says that his

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Speaker 1: country has recorded about sixteen thousand cases of forcible deportations

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Speaker 1: of children. That's not like a final number, just like

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Speaker 1: the death talies and whatnot or not final numbers, but

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Speaker 1: that's that is the Ukrainian state's estimate of how many

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Speaker 1: kids have been taken away, which is a I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty staggering number. I mean, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: huge number of children. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's an

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Speaker 1: absolutely huge number of children. And then you have to

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Speaker 1: account you know that it's not just a children, they're

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Speaker 1: the victims it's also their families who are the victims.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about like a knock on effect with

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Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of people who've been affected

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Speaker 1: by these arcs. It's not more than that, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think probably, I mean, sixteen thousand children are probably higher

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Speaker 1: than the tens of thousands in terms of family members

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Speaker 1: and whatnot who are impacted by this. In terms of

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Speaker 1: what technically this means for Putin, there's about there's I

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Speaker 1: think one hundred and twenty signature signatory nations to the

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Speaker 1: Rome Statute, and within those countries, theoretically, if if Putin

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Speaker 1: or if Maria were to travel there, they would theoretically

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Speaker 1: be arrested if they were to set foot in one

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Speaker 1: of those signatory nations. Yes, so theoretic theoretically doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of walking there, Yeah, doing a lot of heavy lifting. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, in theory, if Putin, trup's any of these

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Speaker 1: nations who should be arrested. But some of the nations

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Speaker 1: don't recognize or believe that heads of states are basically immune,

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Speaker 1: and I imagine there will be several of those signatories

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Speaker 1: who will likely refuse to extradote Putin. Should mister Putin

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Speaker 1: visit them and this has actually happened before, so I

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Speaker 1: think it was South Africa refused to extradite a former

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Speaker 1: head of states. I think it was a leader of

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Speaker 1: South suit done. But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't it

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Speaker 1: Elmarba Sheer, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I believe

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Speaker 1: it was Elmarbasheer. Yeah. So he actually travel around and

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Speaker 1: was not arrested and extradited as theoretically should have been. However,

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Speaker 1: it still gives mister Putin and especially security details some

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Speaker 1: headaches because they're still going to have to check with

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Speaker 1: these states when they go and visit you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: are you going to like arrest him, which is not

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Speaker 1: like a cool usually have to ask, and then if

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Speaker 1: they were planning to arrest him, you know, they might

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Speaker 1: not tell them that they're planning to arrest them. So

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Speaker 1: there's always going to be well at the moment, there's

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Speaker 1: still like a cost applied to mister Putin in terms

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Speaker 1: of traveling to these countries that would you know, you

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Speaker 1: might still like considered the ic jurisdiction of the heads

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Speaker 1: of states to be lacking. Um, yeah, yeah, So it's

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Speaker 1: still there's still like some some cost deployed. Though if

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Speaker 1: I'm remembering correctly, there have been three sitting heads of

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Speaker 1: state that have faced ICC charges in office. We talked

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Speaker 1: about Omar Bashir, Um, Momar Kadafi uh and now Putin

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Speaker 1: is number three. UM, which is, if we're if we're

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Speaker 1: looking at the history of the last you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just since the establishment of the ICC, fewer than the

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Speaker 1: number of world leaders who have been involved allegedly in

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Speaker 1: uh uh crimes against humanity, I think fair to say um,

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Speaker 1: Which brings us to the question of, like, what does

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Speaker 1: it mean to be a signatory UM to Rome, to

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Speaker 1: the ICC, what does it mean to actually be bound

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Speaker 1: by any of these rules? Because both Russia and the

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Speaker 1: United States, it was looking at a map earlier that

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Speaker 1: kind of lists out every countries relationship to the ICC,

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Speaker 1: in both Russia and the United States are in the

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Speaker 1: position of like having endorsed aspects of the ICC and

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Speaker 1: then not signed on right, yeah, yeah, yeah, again, not

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Speaker 1: not that familiar with how the ICC works in practice,

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Speaker 1: but basically, if you sign up to the ICC, you

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Speaker 1: have to agree to enforce their judgments, you know, including

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Speaker 1: a restaurants, which again is something like the US and

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Speaker 1: US and Russia haven't done the idea that basically the

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Speaker 1: ICC market is itself as markets, itself basically thinks of

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Speaker 1: itself as a court of last resort. So you know,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to be out there prosecuting individual sold

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Speaker 1: or fair unlikely to be prosecuting like individual soldiers who've

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Speaker 1: like say executed like temprince and war in a ditch.

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Speaker 1: That's something that is unlikely that the ICC is going

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Speaker 1: to prosecute. They are going for, you know, high in commanders,

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Speaker 1: people who've carried out like extremely civilar acts yea, and

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Speaker 1: especially in cases where like a state is not able

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Speaker 1: to carry out such prosecution. So for example, take the UK,

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Speaker 1: so UK has in theory conducted investigations into allegations of

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Speaker 1: war crimes in a rock, conducted by its troops. That

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Speaker 1: was I had so the Iraq Historic Allegations Team. It

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Speaker 1: was pretty shambolic. It is extremely shambolic. It was a

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Speaker 1: really bad investigation. The not just for the victims who

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Speaker 1: basically no one really ever got justice from it, Very

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Speaker 1: very few people ever got justice from it, but also

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Speaker 1: the people who are actually accused were sometimes like investigated

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Speaker 1: multiple multiple times. But because the UK made some kind

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Speaker 1: of effort to investigate it, even if it was absolutely shambolic.

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Speaker 1: It's unlikely that the ICC has ever actually going to

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Speaker 1: investigate UK soldiers for walk in Rock, because in theory

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Speaker 1: that should be the UK carrying out their investigation, and

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Speaker 1: in theory they have carried out their investigation. It's completely

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Speaker 1: in other quotes. But yeah, that's that's the justification. That's

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Speaker 1: incredibly interesting to me because it does seem like on

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Speaker 1: one hand, I can see the logic, and this is

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Speaker 1: part of why, like the US, the United States, my

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Speaker 1: country's justification for why we are not a signatory is

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Speaker 1: that the Constitution does not allow us to agree to

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Speaker 1: have our citizens tried for crimes that they are being

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Speaker 1: tried for in the United States by an international court

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Speaker 1: something along those lines. And I can understand the idea that, like, well,

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Speaker 1: national sovereignty, like, the only way we're going to get

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Speaker 1: anyone to agree to let this thing exist in abide

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Speaker 1: by any aspect of its rulings is if it does

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Speaker 1: not overly interview with their national sovereignty and to including

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Speaker 1: their ability to prosecute their own soldiers for war crimes.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, the state of affairs, as you've

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Speaker 1: just related. The state of affairs is inadequate, right, Like

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Speaker 1: that is, the system that has been developed is not

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Speaker 1: adequate to to trying or achieving justice in a case

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Speaker 1: like the Iraq War, in which there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of crimes committed that people have not been punished for.

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Speaker 1: And I I mean, obviously you have to kind of

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Speaker 1: marry that to the fact that the attempt to do

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Speaker 1: something at all in this way is extremely new. As

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Speaker 1: we've said, like there are we have, like most of

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Speaker 1: the people who work on my show are older than

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Speaker 1: the ICC, and so that's that's still an achievement. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I'm wondering kind of like what you see

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Speaker 1: is like the positive future for attempts to hold individuals

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Speaker 1: and nations to account here, Like is that is it

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Speaker 1: continuing to grind like this or do you see kind

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Speaker 1: of a more positive opening coming forward as a result

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Speaker 1: of particularly the attention that all of these these war

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Speaker 1: crimes in Ukraine have gotten. I mean, I think it

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Speaker 1: can need to grind. When you look at the history

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Speaker 1: of atrocities that have taken place in conflict over the

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Speaker 1: last you know, like twenty years, it's just absolutely huge. Yea,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's like atrocity upon atrocity upon atrocity, and

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Speaker 1: the ICC you can only investigate a tiny number of those.

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Speaker 1: The reality is that only a tiny fraction of those

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Speaker 1: atrocities will ever actually be investigated in victims faced justice.

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Speaker 1: That is the reality of the situation. The ICC does,

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Speaker 1: you know, carry out investigations and does carry out prosecutions,

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Speaker 1: but again we're talking like the most grave crimes possible,

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Speaker 1: and usually you know, really senior people who often are

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Speaker 1: able to evade those kind of prosecutions. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a better chance of some kind of justice at like

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Speaker 1: a national level with universal jurisdiction. So recently, universe or

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction was used in Germany to prosecute two Syrian officers

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Speaker 1: who basically a torture against the Syrians during during the revolution,

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Speaker 1: and those those two syranofsicers have basically fled to fled

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Speaker 1: to Germany and related prosecuted that. And so it's not

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Speaker 1: just the ICEC, it's also universe jurisdiction. It is you know, trubunals,

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Speaker 1: there's other stuff there. But again, like this is only

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Speaker 1: a tiny fraction of everything that gets investigated. And I've

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Speaker 1: been reading going through several different books about Joseph Mengela

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Speaker 1: most recently and including some accounts from um. You know

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Speaker 1: Jewish doctors who are enslaved and who are forced to

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Speaker 1: work at Auschwitz. And I've been thinking a lot about

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Speaker 1: the Nate like the different kinds of war crimes. Right,

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Speaker 1: you have a group of Australian or US or British

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Speaker 1: soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq who commit a massacre, kill

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Speaker 1: a number of civilians, and that is a war crime.

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Speaker 1: But there's also the kinds of war crime that is

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Speaker 1: a war crime that is the result of individuals taking

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Speaker 1: individual actions right as opposed to the actions of a state,

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Speaker 1: and the actions that are a result of years worth

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Speaker 1: of directed cultural efforts, which I think is part a

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Speaker 1: way to look at what the Russian state's attitude towards

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Speaker 1: Ukrainians are and a lot of the crimes that have

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Speaker 1: been committed over there. The denial of the existence of

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Speaker 1: Ukrainians as a people is deeper and more complex than

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Speaker 1: the kind of crime that a soldier might commit in

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Speaker 1: a moment of passion, and fundamentally different from that. And

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Speaker 1: it's one of those things. If you like, for example,

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Speaker 1: to go back to Mangola, if you're trying to judge

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Speaker 1: Mangola for his crimes, you have to judge the entire

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Speaker 1: German medical establishment, which joined the Nazi Party in higher

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Speaker 1: numbers than any other group in the country, and which

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Speaker 1: was directly implicated in how Auschwitz functioned and why it

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Speaker 1: worked the way it did. And there's realistically, like most

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Speaker 1: of the doctors Mangela, there were attempts to punish him.

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Speaker 1: Obviously he escaped, but the doctors who edge jucated him,

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Speaker 1: who taught him, who who inculcated him in the attitudes

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Speaker 1: that were directly responsible for the crimes that he committed,

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Speaker 1: were never punished. And legally, I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: would punish people for that. How do you punish someone

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Speaker 1: for promuligating ideas like the ideas that Ukrainians are not

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Speaker 1: a people, which leads to a lot of the violence

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Speaker 1: that you're seeing over there, Like, how do you like,

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Speaker 1: there's not, realistically, in at least in my understanding of

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Speaker 1: the law, a way to punish that. But it is

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Speaker 1: a factor in these crimes. Yeah, the creation of a

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Speaker 1: culture absolutely is and a key Like a really good

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Speaker 1: example of this is the radio station Rwanda, Yes who

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Speaker 1: you know broadcast basically effectively caused to genocide. And I

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Speaker 1: think they were actually ended up being prosecuted by the ICC.

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Speaker 1: I think actually as well. I believe, Yeah, I believe

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Speaker 1: there were at least attempts. Yeah, the International Criminal Tribunal

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Speaker 1: for Rwanda. Yeah, I mean, it's one thing when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about like direct incitements to violence. It's another one

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Speaker 1: you're talking about like kind of the stuff that Dugan

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Speaker 1: is responsible for, which is absolutely a factor, the kind

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Speaker 1: of id the ideas that he was one of the

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Speaker 1: people who was kind of promuligated under the direction of

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Speaker 1: Putin and others in the Russian state are like a

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Speaker 1: factor in the behavior that we've seen over there. But

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Speaker 1: it also is harder to kind of qualify it as

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Speaker 1: a direct call for war crimes in some cases, although

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff Dugan has said, I think you

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Speaker 1: could you could argue is certainly like a direct call

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Speaker 1: to violence. Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, well, it's really

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Speaker 1: difficult to kind of get that to raise up to

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Speaker 1: the threshold of prosecution. It's really difficult thing to do,

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Speaker 1: especially if you are external to the culture that is

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Speaker 1: or to the organization that is creating that internal culture.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like very familiar with this kind of stuff

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Speaker 1: having for those of you if you listened to from

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Speaker 1: one will be familiar. I was an army officer, so

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Speaker 1: like quite a big part of my job was making

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Speaker 1: sure that like the culture within my cartoon was a beneficial,

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Speaker 1: good culture in which the blokes would knock go off

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Speaker 1: and like murder people. And you read about stories like

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Speaker 1: my Lie or there's a really good example for this

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Speaker 1: book called Black Hearts, this American plating in Iraq, and

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Speaker 1: it's really clear where basically institutional culture has completely failed

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Speaker 1: or has created a culture in which basically committing atrocities

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Speaker 1: or murder is either you know, mildly ignored or actively encouraged.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, that that culture is something that is really

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Speaker 1: difficult to police because it really has to come from

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Speaker 1: within the institution itself, you know, unless you just completely

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Speaker 1: destroy the institution itself, which is also another option, which

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Speaker 1: is what the Canadians did with their Airborne Regiment after

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Speaker 1: some of their guys in Somalia like roasted some poor

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Speaker 1: guy alive on a fire. Jesus, the Canadians basically just

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Speaker 1: disbanded the entire album regiment. They basically said, like the

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Speaker 1: culture in this regiment is not us. It's too far gone. Basically,

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Speaker 1: we're going to dispand this entire regiment, which is what

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Speaker 1: they did, so you can't do that too. It's quite

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Speaker 1: a difficult thing to do, kind of. The last thing

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go over is the uh, the most

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Speaker 1: recent the response of the Russian state to these warrants.

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Speaker 1: One of them has been they've announced that they are

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Speaker 1: in carrying out an investigation into the ICC, which is it,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, I'm sure as meaningful as the sentence

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Speaker 1: I just said. And I the other thing that they've

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Speaker 1: done is sort of threatened to launch a hypersonic warhead

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Speaker 1: at the Hague, which I mean, like, it's not he

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Speaker 1: does have a lot of missiles, so it's you can't

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Speaker 1: like completely disregard a threat from a nuclear armed nation

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Speaker 1: to launch missiles at the Hague. But it's also just

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Speaker 1: you know, threats like these are not completely and in fact,

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Speaker 1: there's a provision in um what is it called. Let

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Speaker 1: me let me double check on the name here. I'm

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Speaker 1: so bad at remembering the names of laws. UM, the

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Speaker 1: American Service Members Protection Act that does theoretically allow the

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Speaker 1: use of military force by the US if American citizens

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Speaker 1: are extradited. Um, so like this is this is like

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Speaker 1: a much cruder version of that, like if you arrest us,

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Speaker 1: will Well will nuke they. But it does like it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things we're laughing about it. But if

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Speaker 1: you if you were to go back ten years and

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Speaker 1: imagine that threat being leveled, like even by Putin, it

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Speaker 1: would seem like farcical. Um, I guess it is farcical,

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Speaker 1: But we're here. Yeah, it's it's it's completely insane, isn't it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like how do you respond to that? Like right,

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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonna hypersonic They the Hague response,

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Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, it's mad. Like when if you

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Speaker 1: go to the Hague, like the ICEC, you know you'll

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Speaker 1: have like the security guards sat there with their little

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Speaker 1: kind of nine mill pistol and they're kind of buzzing

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Speaker 1: through that kind of stuff, and like the idea of

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Speaker 1: them kind of you know, trying to fight off like

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Speaker 1: a delta force assault on the ICEC in the case

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Speaker 1: where like in a recond soldier there is like it's farcical,

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Speaker 1: but then the idea that they could do anything because

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Speaker 1: like a hypersonic missile is like thirty seconds away from

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Speaker 1: like obliterating the entire You gotta really, you gotta really

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Speaker 1: leave the missile. I mean, I mean, the only kind

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Speaker 1: of benefit I suppose is that like the ICEC is

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Speaker 1: on the outskirts of the Hague, so they would irradiate

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Speaker 1: actually quite a bit of a residential area and then

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Speaker 1: a lot of sand dunes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean

429
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: one of the appside is that if Russia does nuke

430
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: the Hague, we will have deeper concerns than what to

431
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: do about international criminal law and the wake of that,

432
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: including taking sufficient iodine pills, which I'm not by I mean,

433
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: people everyone gets is antsy about enough today. I don't

434
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 1: think this is like a realistic threat. I don't think

435
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: it's likely that the Russian state is going to nuke

436
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: the ICC. Unfortunately. Part of why it's unlikely is that

437
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: it's unlikely that Putin is going to face direct justice

438
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: for his actions unless he is somehow overthrown right like

439
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: that is realistically, the only case by which he winds

440
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: up in front of the ICC is if he is

441
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: forced out of power. Yeah, I mean, like when I

442
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: when this you know, news first broke. There are some

443
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: people who are saying, hey, is this a big deal,

444
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: little like will never you know, people mc justice, and like, yeah,

445
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: he might, he probably won't, but on the off chance,

446
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: it's always good to have that there. You know, I

447
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: went Slobadamnossovich uh, you know, step down was president president

448
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: of Serbia. You know, there was I think there was

449
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 1: a law which meant that he couldn't actually be extracted

450
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: to the icc So everyone said the same thing, you know,

451
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: he's never going to face justice, and then he ended

452
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: up at the ICCA. And if there is some kind

453
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: of cool or something, you know, not now, maybe in

454
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: the year's time, two years time, fifteen years time. You know,

455
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: Putin is a very valuable bargaining chip, and being able

456
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: to sent him to the Hague would be an extremely

457
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: powerful message of hey, guys, we're entering a new era

458
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: like Russia. The Russian state doesn't want to be associated

459
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: with what happened under Putin's rule. He go have mister

460
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: Putin put him on trial, and you know, he becomes

461
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: like quite an important bargaining chip, and so yeah, the

462
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: chance of it happening is like pretty small, but it's

463
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: still there. It's still worth doing this and that's I

464
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: think where I land is. I've just been again reading

465
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: about In this winter of nineteen forty four, there was

466
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: a rebellion in Auschwitz by a number of members of

467
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: the Sonder Commando, which was a group of prisoners who

468
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: were tasked with the actual like job of making the

469
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: camp function. And these guys rebelled, they blew up a

470
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff. And the whole attempt, this whole like

471
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: attack that cost hundreds of them their lives, was in

472
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: the hope that one of them would get out and

473
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: tell the story of what had been happening inside. And

474
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: when you think about it that way, what historically, and

475
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: not just going back to the Holocaust, but the entire

476
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: long history of war like human war crimes which go

477
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: back as far as war. The desire of victims to

478
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: have someone be aware of what has happened to them,

479
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: I think makes this a positive move in the middle

480
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: of an incredibly dark chapter in human history and an

481
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: incredibly awful war. The fact that this is happening at all,

482
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: as flawed, as imperfect as the whole and it's you know,

483
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: people keep bringing up things like the inequities of the

484
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: prosecution of like the United States and Israel for a

485
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: number of different acts of their states and militaries. But like,

486
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: even given all that, the fact that this is happening

487
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: at all is I think meaningful. I do think it matters.

488
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: It's definitely a meaningful Like it's very much like a

489
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: statement of intent from the ICC and especially from the

490
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: new prosecutor, the ICC cream Con who came in last

491
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: year and he's kind of like, as far as I

492
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: can tell, come in and shaking a few cages, and

493
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: it's a very clear statement of intent from both himself

494
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: and from the court as well. Yeah, well, I think

495
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: that's as good a note as any to end on. Nick,

496
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: Do you want to direct anybody towards um place they

497
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: can can donate or something they can or a place

498
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: they can go to read up more on this series

499
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: other issues of international criminal justice. I mean, yeah, I'd

500
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: direct people to to Bell and catocom, which is who

501
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: I work for my twitters and non school Waters eighty nine.

502
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't really go on Twitter that much anymore. Something

503
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: happened there, I don't know men, Yeah, but I place

504
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: the occasion every so often. But yeah, felling out the

505
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: con would be you wor'd recommend that's where like our

506
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: work is anyway. Yeah, well, Nick Waters, thank you so

507
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: much for coming on, for lending your expertise here. That's

508
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: going to do it for us here, and it could

509
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: happen here. Sorry for using the word here so many times.

510
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: Have a lovely day, everybody. Hey everyone, this is it

511
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast about things falling apart sometimes

512
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: about putting things back together. This is one of the

513
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: former episodes because we are recording this in the immediate wake,

514
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: within a couple of hours of America's the United States

515
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: of America's most recent mass shooting in Tennessee at a

516
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Christian school called Covenant. You know, obviously there are way

517
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: too many mass shootings in the United States for us

518
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: to cover each one. We are talking about this now

519
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: in a timely manner because there's a bunch of very

520
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: specific disinformation coming out about it, and particularly disinformation that

521
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: is part of the broader targeting by the right wing

522
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: of transgender people. So I'm gonna for the first part

523
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: of this, I'm going to turn things over to Garrison,

524
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: who has been doing specific research on the shooter and

525
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: what we can actually verify at this moment about their identity. Upfront,

526
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: I'll say that the police have identified this person as

527
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: Audrey Hale twenty eight of Nashville NBC News notes quote

528
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: who said she identifies as transgender. Again, this is not

529
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: quite right. We'll talk about it. But the right wing

530
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: is obviously running with the idea that this is a

531
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: transgender shooter and part of a trans a series. They

532
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: will argue of transgender attacks on Christians. We're going to

533
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: talk about the right wing sort of analysis of this later,

534
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: but first I'm gonna again push to Garrison, who will

535
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: talk about what we actually can verify about this person

536
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: and about this shooting at this point. Yeah, just as

537
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: a note here, throughout this episode, there will be some

538
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: what is probably miss gendering because we're going to be

539
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: quoting from a lot of other people's statements, and also

540
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: there will be a mentions of like a few slurs

541
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: against trans people, just because we are quoting from whole

542
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff, and some of the details

543
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: regarding the gender of the person in question is relatively

544
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: unknown at the time. So just as a heads up, Okay,

545
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm gonna just gonna go over a few

546
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: things regarding what we know happened, What the what the

547
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: school was, because I think that kind of that might

548
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: play into it, but that will kind of veer on speculation.

549
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: So we're just going to limit it towards what we

550
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: actually know and then attempt to avoid speculation on this epimosphere. Yes, so,

551
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: someone caring multi fire arms entered a private Christian school

552
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: in Nashville this Monday morning and shot and killed three

553
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: nine year old students and three adult staff members in

554
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: their sixties, including the head of the school, doctor Katherine Khans.

555
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: Police initially claimed the shooter was a teenager, but minutes

556
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: later changed course and described them as a twenty eight

557
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: year old woman from Nashville. It was then reported pretty

558
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: quickly in NBC News that the shooter was identified as

559
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: Audrey Hale, twenty eight, of Nashville, and the police chief

560
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: said she identifies as transgender. NBC has another article out

561
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: there that says Audrey Haile, twenty eight, who police say

562
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: was a transgender woman, quote unquote. So we will get

563
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: into that here in a sec But the shooter entered

564
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: the Covenant School via a side door, according to the

565
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: Metro Nashville Police spokesperson Don Aaron, and was armed with

566
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: at least two quote unquote assault style rifles and a

567
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: handgun unquote. It looks like it's an ar rifle and

568
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: an air pistol and then also a handgun. Nashville Police

569
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: Chief John Drake has said, quote at one point she

570
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: was a student at that school, but we are unsure

571
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: of what year unquote, and that Hale shot through the

572
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: door to gain entry into the school. The shooter made

573
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: their way through the first and second floors at the school,

574
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: firing multiple shots before Hale was killed by police on

575
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: the school's second floor. So it's assumed by the police

576
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: at this point, and they may have evidence that it's

577
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: not been like made public yet that the shooter did

578
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: attend to school, but they are unsure for like exactly

579
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: how long and what years specifically. I think it's it's

580
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: important to mention a few things about the school just

581
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: because this is a very unique mass shooting in a

582
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: lot of ways, mass shootings at private schools, let alone

583
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: private Christian schools is very rare. And this is also

584
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: like a preschool through sixth grade school. So the Covenant

585
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: School is a pre school through sixth grade private Christian

586
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: school founded in two thousand and one, and it shares

587
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: the same location as Covenant Presbyterian Church. The website states

588
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: it has thirty three teaching faculty and around two hundred

589
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 1: enrolled students per year, with tuition at around sixteen thousand

590
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,479
Speaker 1: dollars a year. According to the school's website, to quote,

591
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: the Covenant School is a ministry of Covenant Presbyterian Church

592
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: created to assist Christian parents and the church by providing

593
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: an exceptional academic experience founded upon and informed by the

594
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: Word of God. So, I mean, honestly, this this is

595
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: something that's pretty similar to the type of Christian school

596
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: that I grew up in. It's the school that's attached

597
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: to this church. I also had around two hundred fellow students,

598
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: so that this seems seems to be relatively pretty similar

599
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: and not super uncommon for this type of private Christian school.

600
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: That's kind of all I'm going to get into that here.

601
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've looked around the school's website a lot,

602
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: and it seems pretty pretty basic in terms of these

603
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: types of Presbyterian private Christian schools. But now we're gonna

604
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: start getting into some of this stuff regarding the identity

605
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: of the shooter and a lot because there's a lot

606
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: of information going around. NBC News is now claiming that

607
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: the shooter is a transgender woman. I don't think that's

608
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: fully accurate. Um, but we're gonna effect quoting directly from

609
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: the car. Yeah. This is to be fair, I mean,

610
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: partly NBC's fault, because more they should have done as

611
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: much research as you did, Garrison. Yeah, but they are

612
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: quoting the police. Yeah. Yes. The gist is that the

613
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: police identified this as a transgender woman. They have a manifesto.

614
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 1: We don't know what's in the manifesto, but yeah, police

615
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: continue gare Yeah, and I guess I guess one of

616
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: the things that's reported is after police said this was

617
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: a transgender woman, they also talked about how Hale had

618
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: conducted surveillance and prepared for the attack with detailed maps. Um.

619
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: And then also the aforementioned manifesto. But yes, we're gonna

620
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to some of the stuff that

621
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: we do know using just basic open source research stuff.

622
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: So there is a LinkedIn page for someone named Audrey

623
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: Hale in the Nashville area. They list a lot of

624
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: various like illustration jobs they've had for the past few years,

625
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: and they do have a little pronoun marker next to

626
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: their name that says he him. Hale appears to have

627
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: had a website for their graphic design portfolio called AH Illustrations,

628
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: so just their initials AH. They have posts in they're

629
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: being tagged from twenty twenty three from twenty twenty two,

630
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: so it's been at least up for two years. I

631
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: tried to do like metadata stuff on some of their artwork.

632
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: I did not really get much in terms of what

633
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: year they were posted, but we may be able to

634
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: learn more about that later. The website has an about

635
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: page that introduces the person as Audrey Hale, but it

636
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: also directs you to a now vanished Instagram page called

637
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: at Creative period Aiden. So we're we're going to go

638
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: through some of the rights initials a bit later, because

639
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 1: they were already calling us a transgender shooting before any

640
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: information came out at all, as a part of the

641
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: Sam Hide joke. Yeah, for reference, Sam Hide is kind

642
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: of a right wing comedian who had a show on

643
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: Adult Swim. For the last several years, it has been

644
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: a meme to every time there's a shooting, there's a

645
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: specific picture of Sam Hide holding a rifle that people

646
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: will post and say, I'm getting this picture that you

647
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: know this was the shooter at whatever. It's been at Parkland,

648
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: it's been at El Paso, it's been at Duvaldi. Every

649
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: single shooting this happens. And with this shooting, someone photoshopped

650
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: some ladies head onto sam hide and claimed immediately that

651
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: it was a transgender person. This also ties into the

652
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: Highland Park shooting, where the shooter wore women's clothing at

653
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: some point to try to escape, and the right continually

654
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: tries to claim that that makes it a transgender shooting. Anyway,

655
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: please continue, gare yes. So, by going through their online

656
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: portfolio dated as far back as twenty twenty two, I

657
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: found a self portrait that has a has a different

658
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: social media user name titled at cree dot tiv Dre.

659
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: I think Dre is for like Audrey, and this also

660
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: appears to be an old Instagram handle before they changed

661
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: it to at Creative. Aiden Hale's website also has another

662
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: self portrait just tagged with the name Aiden and Aiden Creates.

663
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: That one appears to be from maybe slightly after, but

664
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of unclear with how the website is laid out.

665
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: So although the Instagram page for this person appears to

666
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: be taken down. It's unknown if they took it down

667
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 1: or if Instagram took it down, but it is gone

668
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: and there's no archive of it. It appears that Hale

669
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: did have other social media accounts that are still online

670
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: besides the aforementioned LinkedIn. A TikTok account by the name

671
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: of I am Underscore Aiden ten shares a profile picture

672
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: with Hale's own website, and it also links to Hale's

673
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: Instagram page, which is mentioned on Hale's website. The TikTok

674
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: was seldom active, but their first visible post is from

675
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: March fifteenth, twenty twenty two. There are two other posts

676
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: from that month, and all three of these posts are

677
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: like about late nineties early two thousands video game nostalgia,

678
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: and thanks to TikTok's user name embedding feature, we can

679
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: see that the account used to be called Audrey Video

680
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: Game Nerd Underscore ten before being changed to i am

681
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: Aiden ten sometime between March sixteenth and April fifteenth of

682
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 1: last year. Hale's last visible post is just from over

683
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: a month ago, February ninth, twenty twenty three, and yeah,

684
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: just as a note kind of I've gone over less

685
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: of this than you. But I've I've combed over what's available.

686
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: I don't notice any of the normal red flags. There's

687
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: not even like pictures of this person posing with firearms.

688
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: There's not threats. There's one video where they seem to

689
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: be mourning a friend or a relative, but it's a

690
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: pretty normal, like in memorium style video. None of their

691
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: art strikes me as disturbing in any way. No, it's

692
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: at least one red rum one they have. They have

693
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 1: one piece of Shining fan art that the Right's been using.

694
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: It sticks out, but also like the Shining is one

695
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: of the most popular movies of all time. Yeah, no,

696
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: nothing nothing. As someone who's looked through the social media

697
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: accounts of a lot of shooters, this account is relatively normal,

698
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: like they there's nothing in here that would be immediately

699
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: red flags. They did a lot of like corporate work.

700
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:34,959
Speaker 1: I think I think they did artwork for the city

701
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: of Denver. Yeah, it looks like it. They were being

702
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: commissioned to do a graphic design for a lot of businesses,

703
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: a lot of like local events in Nashville. Um. There

704
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: is one other thing from their website that I will mentioned, uh,

705
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: part of their bio they have this sentence that says,

706
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: there is a childlike part of me that loves to

707
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: go and run around on the playground, and the rights

708
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: using this in like a like a weird like a

709
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: groomer way, being like this this kid wants, this adult

710
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: wants to go around with two playgrounds and their childlike

711
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: this is this is a completely normal thing to say.

712
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: This is like, this is not a red flag. This

713
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: is I also enjoy going on the playground. This is

714
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: not a red flag either. This is just part of

715
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: weird culture war stuff. Yeah, yeah, I have another thing

716
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: about being a kid forever and ever as well. It

717
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: just seems that they connected with childhood things and those

718
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: kind of things. Yeah, and like psychologically, maybe being kind

719
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: of stuck in the past or whatever is a part

720
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: of how they describe or justify this in their manifesto.

721
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: We just don't know. But the point of the matter

722
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: is if you had looked at this person's social media prior,

723
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: and this is very different from most shooters, you would

724
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: not have thought, oh, this is a person who is

725
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: of danger to people. There's there's just not signs in it.

726
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: I mean, the one thing that is the kind of

727
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 1: last thing I'll mention is the I think the two

728
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: other adults that were shot. One was a custodian, There

729
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: was a was a I think it was like a

730
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: substitute teacher. Um. They were all in their sixties. Um.

731
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: It's unclear how long those two other people have been

732
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: with the school of the head of the school has

733
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: been been there for a while. Um. But I mean

734
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: because because it is a preschool through sixth grade school, UM,

735
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: Hale would not have been at the school relatively recently.

736
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: I can try to I'm trying. I'm trying to do

737
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: like quick math here to be like if you would

738
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: if you be in sixth grade and you're now twenty eight,

739
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: seventeen years ago, yeah, eleven years old, right, American's five yeah, yeah, yes, yeah,

740
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's certainly it's it's started in two

741
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: thousand and one. So yeah, that's that is that is

742
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: that is possible. Yeah. I do want to note a

743
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: couple of things before we move on to the right

744
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: ring wing reaction. One of them just kind of again

745
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: to to sort of boil it down based on what

746
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: is available publicly, we know this person seemed to have

747
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: been born and raised as Audrey Hale, started going by

748
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: Aiden at the latest sometime last year. Their LinkedIn shows

749
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: them at that point as using he him pronouns, but

750
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: still but still with the name Audrey, but still with

751
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: the name Audrey. It is actually very much at this

752
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: point still unclear how they exact precisely identified what pronouns

753
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: they used. We certainly don't know whether or not they

754
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: were on any kind of like hormones, not that that

755
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: would have an impact on any of this, but we

756
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: have very little actual information. The police are saying that

757
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: they identify themselves as transgender in the manifesto. At some

758
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: point we might learn more as a result of that,

759
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: but but it is. It is a lot of what's

760
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: being put out as either unclear or you know, wrong

761
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: in one way or the other. There's just a lot

762
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: of information that is kind of missing about this person.

763
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: People are jumping to conclusions on stuff, So we will

764
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: probably learn more there later. One more note on this.

765
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: The police are the ones that initiated the use of

766
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: the term manifesto. Of now, there was no manifesto published

767
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: by the shooter. We do not know if this is

768
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: a quote unquote manifesto like at all. The police have

769
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: claimed that they found writing when they rated this person's house,

770
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: So this writing discussing things around their gender or what

771
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: they were doing this This could be anything from like

772
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: a suicide note to just like a diary or a journal.

773
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: So by using the word manifesto, they're kind of trying

774
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: to tie it into that. We simply at this point

775
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: do not know if this was a manifesto at all,

776
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: Like we just that is that is a very loaded

777
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: term in this context. I think it's notable that the

778
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: shooter did not publish anything. Whereas usually when there's like manifestos,

779
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: they are they are published online, right the shooter, the

780
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: shooter themselves will publish it online and that is kind

781
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: of part of their entire attack. That is not the

782
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: case here. The shooter did not publish anything about this

783
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: attack online that we've or that we've found, or that

784
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: anyone's found. So I think that's an important thing to

785
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: note when we're talking about the use of the word

786
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: manifesto here in terms of like the importance of a manifesto,

787
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, speaking as someone who has written professionally about

788
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: a number of them, Manifestos are obviously useful, especially when

789
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: trying to analyze why someone did something, what their political

790
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: goal may have been, if they're indeed there's a political goal,

791
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: what their radicalization pathway has been. But a crucial thing

792
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: is to never ever take a manifesto purely at face value.

793
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: Manifestos are political writings by terrorists, right, That is what

794
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: a manifesto is, And they are writings that are kind

795
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: of calculated to achieve a goal. And I don't know

796
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: what this person put in their manifesto. Their manifesto muld

797
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: just have been a perfectly like accurate summation of their

798
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: feelings of why they did this terrible thing. That's possible,

799
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: we say, we don't know at this point. But manifestos

800
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: are a part of understanding a shooting and what the

801
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: goal was of the shooting and what the individual hope

802
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: to accomplish. But they cannot and never should be taken

803
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: at face value. And that's what a lot of media

804
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: are going to do if this every does get public.

805
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: So please always show care and skepticism of directly reading

806
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: from a manifesto, like even in the case, you know,

807
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: there's just a lot, like in the christ Church manifesto

808
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: of like bullshit, shit posting, jokes and stuff thrown in

809
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: there with the real stuff. It's generally possible to us

810
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: to get to gather and understand motive from a manifesto,

811
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: and I am you know, I will read it if

812
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: it becomes available, but be very careful with such things. Yeah,

813
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: speaking of not being careful, let's talk about the right

814
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: wing response to this, because I think broadly speaking, it's

815
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: fair to characterize it as they are claimed, this is

816
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: part of a line of terror attacks by transgender people.

817
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of folks saying that this is reason

818
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: to ban gender affirming care, to ban hormone therapy, to

819
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: ban trans people from purchasing firearms. This is a pretty

820
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: rampant on the right already. It became very quickly, so

821
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: I actually want to go over one thing I just

822
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: came up and saw while Gare was talking that I

823
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: think is interesting as Candice Owens. Candice Owens is a

824
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: right wing commentator, unfortunately quite influential and has a sizable platform.

825
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: I want to quote from her response. Her initial response,

826
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 1: this was the immediate response when all the information was out,

827
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: was that there'd been a shooting at this school. I

828
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: live in Green Hills, and I'm positively devastated for the

829
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: families impacted by this tragedy, Please suspend your politics and

830
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: instead do what these families at this Christian school would want. Pray.

831
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: That's a perfectly reasonable response, at least for somebody who

832
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: believes in prayer. Within a matter of like an hour

833
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: or so, it became clear that or information began to

834
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: come out that the shooter was likely transgender, at which

835
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: point Candace suspended her statement about not making it politics.

836
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: She posted shortly after, transgenderism as a mental illness. Keep

837
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: your children away from transgendent individuals and their parents. People

838
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: that support and encourage as air monsters and should be

839
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: kept away from children. They yelled at. Matt Walsh made

840
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: a statement, why haven't would be given the name of

841
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 1: the mass shooter yet, and Candace responded, because they're wiping

842
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: the socials so they can make things up about the person.

843
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: She noted as to a post by Matt Walsh being like,

844
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: the question is why this culture is producing so many

845
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: people who want to carry out attacks like this. Take

846
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: the guns and you'll still have a country infested by

847
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: homicidal sociopaths. Where they're coming from, what is creating them?

848
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: Candace responded, I would start with the fact that we

849
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: now celebrate clinical insanity while we admonished normalcy. People are

850
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: aspiring to mental illness because they receive attention and off

851
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: times are awarded for perversity. She is essentially taking the

852
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: stance of like, we have to blame this on the

853
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: fact that this person was transgender and being transgenderism mental illness, right,

854
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: That's the stance Canvas is taking. That's the stance a

855
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: lot of folks are taking. One of the most widely

856
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: shared posts from a right winger on this was by

857
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: a guy named dc Underscore. Draino notes himself as a husband, patriot, lawyer, constitutionalist,

858
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: and anti woke. He has six hundred eighty six thousand

859
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: followers on Twitter. He has been relentless in posting about

860
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: this as an act of transgender terror. He has spread

861
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 1: at some of the information that Garrison added on this

862
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: podcast about this person's social media posts, and his posts

863
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: are some of the most widely read and like that

864
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: I've seen. One of them reads. Unconfirmed reports identify the

865
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: Nashville shooter as Audrey Hale, a biological female that identifies

866
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: as he him on their LinkedIn. Authorities believe the transgender

867
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: shooter previously attended the Christian school. He then follows, we

868
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 1: will not let this story be swept under the rug.

869
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: Trans terrorism must be confronted head on and stopped. Tennessee

870
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: just passed laws restricting sextualized drag shows for children and

871
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: banning the genital mutilation of children. Was today's mass shooting

872
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: at a Christian school by a transgender killer and act

873
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: of domestic terror? And when will we start talking about

874
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: transgender mass murders targeting innocent school children in our schools?

875
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: Enough as enough? And in this they posted a link

876
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: to a reader's story about a shooting from last year.

877
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: I think it was in Colorado in Denver. This was

878
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: a shooting where two people, one of whom was transgender,

879
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: walked into a school in Denver and shot at several classmates,

880
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: killing one. They claimed it was revenge on classmates over bullying.

881
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: The McKinney, the transgender shooter, has been sentenced recently, so

882
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: it's been in the news. This is being built as

883
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: like a transgender terrorist attack because spoiler, there's very few

884
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: cases of trans people carrying out acts of violence, so

885
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: they're kind of grabbing what they can in order to

886
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: try and make an argument that this is part of

887
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,959
Speaker 1: a trend um. In the absence of any kind of manifesto,

888
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: people are claiming that transidentity motivated the killings. The police

889
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: seem to have helped to jump start this, all right,

890
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: So first off, we're going to play before we continue,

891
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: We're going to play a clip of the police press

892
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: conference where the police chief of Nashville talks about what

893
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: has happened um and talks about the information that they

894
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: have about the shooter based on the apparently the manifesto

895
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 1: that they have in the maps that they have. So

896
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: we're going to play that. Now. Our investigations tell us

897
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: that she was a former student at the school. I

898
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: don't know what great she's attended or great, but we

899
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 1: do firm the delite she was a student there. She

900
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: does identify as trends. Yes, history, no history at all,

901
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: and no motive of disappoint anything just go in the

902
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: apartment or house. No, we have a manifesto. We have

903
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: some writings that we're going over that pertain to this day,

904
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: the actual incident. We have a map drawn out of

905
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: how this was all going to take place. Uh, there's

906
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: right now a theory of that's that we may be

907
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: able to talk about later. But it's not confirmed, and

908
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: so we'll we'll put that out as soon as we can.

909
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: There any reason to believe that how she identifies is

910
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: as any motive order targeting school, we can give you

911
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: that at a later time. There is uh some theory

912
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: to that. We're investigating all the leads and once we

913
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: know exactly, we'll let you know. As a target at

914
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 1: a time, it was a gender man or woman. Don't

915
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: know any history of mental illness at this time, but

916
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: we are looking at that as investigation is ongoing. And

917
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, or woman a woman? All right? So yeah,

918
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: prison you want to start off here? Yeah, I think

919
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: giving like the most charitable reading of that, I think

920
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: it's possible that this police chief does not have as

921
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: a as a full art. I don't think this police

922
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: chief has as an as an in depth understanding of

923
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: gender theory as some of us or the listeners do.

924
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: So it is just confused by that question is it

925
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: a transman or a trans woman? And he answers me

926
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: by saying, yeah, they're trans, but they are a woman.

927
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: So I think that that could be what's going on.

928
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: And then we have outlets like NBC News saying that

929
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,439
Speaker 1: the person's a transgender woman, because they also are, for one,

930
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 1: not doing like very basic digging online and are also

931
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: just making are just usually enjoy repeating the police's talking

932
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: points when stuff like this happens, because it's just easier. Hey, everybody,

933
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: Robert here. Shortly after we finish this, the police chief

934
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 1: of Nashville, John Drake, went on Lester Holtz NBC show

935
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: and gave another statement that was much more accurate than

936
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: the previous statement that we just played you, which the

937
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: right wing is making a lot of hay out of.

938
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: In the statement, they note that the shooter attended the

939
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 1: school as a child and was resentful of the school

940
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: and of being forced to attend it, that the school

941
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: was the target and not any specific individual, and that

942
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: the victims were random. They also owe in this statement

943
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: to Lester Holt, the police chief makes a lot less

944
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: of a deal about the fact that the shooter was

945
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: trans It seems like the first statement that they made

946
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 1: was based on either incomplete information or in the heat

947
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: of the moment. But I'm going to play you this

948
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: statement and then we will continue the episode. It sounds

949
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: like things are moving very quickly. You describe this as

950
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: a targeted attack, and you elaborate absolutely. So. The person

951
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: we know as Audrey Hale, she's a twenty eight year

952
00:55:54,160 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: old NATSH Fillion. We have believe or feel it's very

953
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: strongly that she went to school here in the natural area,

954
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: and she went to that actual school, and and so

955
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 1: there's some belief that there was some resentment for having

956
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: to go to that school. Don't have all the details

957
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: of that just yet, and and that's why this incident occurred.

958
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: Did Hale target in your mind, did Hale target the

959
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: school or someone in the school? She targeted random students

960
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: in the school, just whoever, and and persons whoever she

961
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: came in contact with, she fired rounds. You recovered what

962
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: you've described as a manifesto. You've also said that Hale

963
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: identified as trans. Do you believe there is a connection

964
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: to that. We feel that he identifies as trans, But

965
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: was still in the initial investigation into all of that,

966
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: And if it actually played a role into this incident.

967
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: As we know more, we'll definitely make that known, but

968
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: right now we'll unsure if that actually played a role.

969
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: But does the manifesto point you in a particular direction

970
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: that you can reveal that has in the initial investigation

971
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: we've turned it over to the FBI. We've looked over

972
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: it as well, and it indicates that there was going

973
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: to be shootings at multiple locations and the school was

974
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: one of them. There was actually a map of the

975
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: school detail and surveillance entry points and how this was

976
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: going to be carried out on this day. Yeah, I mean,

977
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: I think a big part of this is that after

978
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: a mass shooting in any national paper or other media outlet,

979
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: you're always trying to be first with something, and that

980
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: creates a situation where like, you don't fact yet, you

981
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: don't do the basic ocin looking up right, You just

982
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: like cops have said something, get it out, get the most,

983
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: get a ton of clicks, And that leads to disappointing

984
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: sort of repetition of half well in falsehoods that we're seeing. Yeah,

985
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: and it leads to it provides a lot of So

986
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: one thing that the right has always understood is that

987
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: the immediate aftermath of a story that breaks into the

988
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: news is you call it the wet cement period, where

989
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: if people are talking about it, if you can, if

990
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: you can lasso a narrative and drag it out in

991
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: front of everybody and get momentum behind it. Then that

992
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: effectively becomes reality for an awful lot of people, and

993
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 1: it's very important, which is why they're all immediately falling

994
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: into line on this. One of the posts that I

995
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: just ran across is from Benny Johnson, who's a right

996
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: wing media guy. So Benny Johnson says, the Colorado spring

997
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: shooter identified as non binary, the Dinver shooter identified as trans,

998
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: the Aberdeen shooter identified as trans, the Nashville shooter identified

999
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 1: as trans. One thing is very clear, the modern trans

1000
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: movement is radicalizing activists into terrorists. Elon Musk responded to

1001
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: this with an exclamation point, which is great. Um, the

1002
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: Colorado spring shooter was not non binary. The Colorado springshooters

1003
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: lawyers made that claim briefly while they were trying to

1004
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: cobble together a defense after this person killed two trans

1005
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: people and shot up an LGBT nightclub. The Dinver shooter

1006
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: is the person we just talked about. Um well, I

1007
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: mean also they also could be referring to that to that, yes,

1008
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: probably yeah, yeah, and um yeah, it's uh like it's

1009
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: it's it's frustrating, like what they're doing with this stuff here,

1010
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: Like it's very obvious, especially in trying to wrap in

1011
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: the attack of a right wing terrorist on an lgbt

1012
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: UM club to part like to an act of like

1013
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: claiming that it's an act of transgender terrorism. UM. A

1014
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: lot of this is spreading, particularly among people who paid

1015
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: for blue check marks on the new Twitter um, because

1016
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: that's like, yeah, this is kind of the first mass

1017
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: shoot we have had in the new Elon's kind of

1018
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: new check mark thing, where like people are able to

1019
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: kind of verify themselves for money, and we're about to

1020
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: see all of the old verified accounts. Loves verification. We'll

1021
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about how well that's actually

1022
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: working for them later, which is actually less clear, so

1023
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: that's possibly a positive thing. But yeah, I mean it's

1024
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: pretty obvious. Andy knows posted about this. He's another He

1025
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: works for a place called The Post Millennial. He's a

1026
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: right wing gooul. He says the shooting comes amid a

1027
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: surge of far left death threats in Tennessee over the states,

1028
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, anti trans laws. He provides no evidence of this.

1029
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: He does quote or cite an eminem's ad that Audrey

1030
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: Hail made that is like a Pride ad that says

1031
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: born this way you know, it's like a rainbow of

1032
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: Eminem's that says born this way appears to be something

1033
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: that they may have done for money. I don't know,

1034
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: isn't really relevant to the situation. One of the uglier

1035
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: posts that I found on a right comes from a

1036
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: guy who identifies himself as an American dissident, Stu Peters.

1037
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: He's the executive producer Have Died Suddenly, which is one

1038
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: of these right wing attempts to connect every single death

1039
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: of a person who got vaccinated to the vaccination, which

1040
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 1: is a ghoulish thing to do anyway. And yeah, they

1041
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: they initially leapt into there's a lot of like ugliness

1042
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: in here. Stu is one of the more open folks,

1043
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 1: calling them a tranny named Audrey Hale who is a

1044
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: former student of Covenant School. They kind of interpret the

1045
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 1: police statement, which is at least very warbly, as the

1046
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: police saying this was a direct attack on Christians, which

1047
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: the cops have not yet said. Stu posts police admit

1048
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: this was a targeted attack on Christians by a demonic

1049
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: tranny for some context. Another one of his posts is

1050
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: arguing that Zelinski is waging war on Christians. So you

1051
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: know this is a should be seen with guys like

1052
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 1: this in addition to being the troubling thing that it

1053
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: is part of kind of the broader like echo chamber

1054
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: that the right has set up for itself. Like this

1055
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: is troubling and problematic and to a degree frightening, and

1056
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: they're going to continue to try to push for disarming

1057
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: trans people as a result of this. I suspect we'll

1058
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: see states introduce bills that are red flag laws just

1059
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: for trans people. This is the kind of thing that

1060
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: I am worried about, but it also is kind of

1061
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 1: worth seeing this as this is very much in line

1062
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: with the other kind of right wing echo chamber panic

1063
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: stuff that is everywhere, and so far, while this is

1064
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: deeply concerning, I'm not seeing evidence that it's breaking out

1065
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: of the right and like that doesn't mean it's not

1066
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 1: a problem, but it is kind of worth noting. The

1067
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: actual trending tags right now on Twitter are not what

1068
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: you'd expect. The Tennessee shooting is not trending on its

1069
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: own in a particularly high position. It's substantially lower than

1070
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: the Uvaldi and Highland Park shootings, both of which you're

1071
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: trending right now. This is based on a Twitter account

1072
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: I use that is not my Twitter account. It's just

1073
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: a blank account, so I'm hoping to get a little

1074
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: bit less of a biased thing. When I looked at

1075
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 1: my own accounts trending, it was Uvaldi and Highland Park

1076
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: as well as Columbine was trending. Sam Hyde is trending,

1077
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: you know, because he always does after a shooting. As

1078
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: a result of this stuff, guns is trending. I think

1079
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: a R fifteen was trending on one of my accounts,

1080
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: But I'm not yet seeing evidence that this is anywhere

1081
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: like that. The ant trand stuff has made it outside

1082
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: of the right wing fever swamps. Yea, you are getting

1083
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: like again. That does not mean it's not troubling. It

1084
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 1: is deeply troubling, but it's also not when I'm looking

1085
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: at sort of liberal and centrist responses to this, it's

1086
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: noteworthy that what is trending is Uvaldi and Highland Park

1087
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: and Columbine because what's common is people sort of putting

1088
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: this within the continuum of America's nightmarish problem with mass shootings,

1089
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: particularly at schools, which is the right way to see this.

1090
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: This is part of an ongoing series of island acts

1091
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: and a mass shooter culture that exists within this country,

1092
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: and obviously it's tied to the availability of guns. It's

1093
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 1: tied to a number of things. But it is kind

1094
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: of worth noting that when it comes to what most

1095
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: people are seeing as a result of this, it is

1096
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,439
Speaker 1: another mass shooting in America, and not trans people are

1097
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: carrying out terrorist attacks. That is so far, at least

1098
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: just like a thing I'm seeing in the right wing

1099
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 1: fever swamps. Yeah, I think. I think Marjorie Taylor Green

1100
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: is one of the first, like sitting politicians to make

1101
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: a statement focused on the shooter's gender identity, saying how

1102
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 1: much hormones like testosterone and medications for mental illness was

1103
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:06,479
Speaker 1: the transgender Nashville shooter taking. Everyone can stop blaming guns now,

1104
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: and like this style of messaging is just blaming the

1105
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: shooting on like HRT and and health medication. But there's

1106
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: no indication at this point that the shooter was taking

1107
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: testosterone or was on any medication. But this is just

1108
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 1: a clear attempt to like tie this shooting into the

1109
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: campaign against trans healthcare that that Green has been doing

1110
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: for years now, and to make trans healthcare seem like

1111
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: the reason that this shooting took place. Yeah, this person

1112
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: has kind of already become like like Schrodinger's like gender

1113
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: affirming care right where like and you know, suggesting they're

1114
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: doing attacks because they can't access gender affirming care. Marju

1115
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: Tela Greens is acting that the gender affirming care they

1116
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: did access made them become more violent, like the same

1117
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: thing with Jack Sobiak, who was saying that testosterone increases aggression. Yeah.

1118
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: Jack Posobik is an influential Republican advisor and commentator. He's

1119
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 1: a fat he's a fascist, Like, he's a terrible person.

1120
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: He's the guy who initially spread the Pizzagate conspiracy theory.

1121
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: But he is influential on the right because of his

1122
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: ability to get stuff to go viral on the base.

1123
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: And I guess one thing we should mention that that

1124
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: kind of ties into is that Sobiac's been repeating some

1125
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,959
Speaker 1: talking points that Tucker Carlson focused on a few nights

1126
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: ago during his show. There was an NPR segment about

1127
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: trans people who are purchasing firearms to defend themselves that

1128
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: interviewed somebody on a number of folks. One of the

1129
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: people they interviewed is a person who goes by queer

1130
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: armor on Twitter about why they've chosen to be armed

1131
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: and like advocate other trans people arm themselves for self defense.

1132
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 1: Tucker took quotes from that person and made a very

1133
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: fearmongering piece about how NPR and the liberals want to

1134
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: create an army of trans stormtroopers and disarm regular Americans. Right,

1135
01:06:56,200 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 1: that's the piece, yeah, talking of, like, I guess Americans.

1136
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: One thing that's also twending is just an incredibly crass

1137
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: photo that the representative for that fifties fifth district, which

1138
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: the district the school was in, who's called Andy Ogles

1139
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 1: Ogules maybe posted for his Christmas photo. I guess which

1140
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: is him. It's a classic Republican politician photo, right, entire family,

1141
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: everyone holding a different variant of an AAR fifteen, and

1142
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: it's Yeah, look, I think, regardless of what you think

1143
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 1: about guns, is kind of crass to be parading them

1144
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: as like culture war tokens like this. And I've noticed

1145
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: that's been trending across a lot of at least of

1146
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: timeline I'm seeing. Yeah, this is this is at the

1147
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: nexus of a number of things that are like fucked

1148
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: up about this country. I'm just enjoying Ian Miles Chong's

1149
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: timeline unfortunately, and who is he emails shop? Right we

1150
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: engagement provocateur. Yeah, he lives in Thailand, Right, Malaysia. I

1151
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: believe Malaysia, Malaysia. He has like he has like half

1152
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: a million to followers, influential on the online sphere. His

1153
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 1: telegram is Culture war Room, which is, you know, giving

1154
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 1: you what you need to get. I think so I'm

1155
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: just going to read this tweet and obviously, like all

1156
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 1: the sort of content warnings you'd expect, today, a mass

1157
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 1: show to murder three children and three adults at a

1158
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: Christian school in Nashville, Tennessee. The murderer pronouns were, was

1159
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: transgender and had written a manifesto detailing their intentions, which

1160
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 1: come days after Tennessee passed child protection laws and tended

1161
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: to curb children from being subjected to trans surgeries and

1162
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: other irreversible procedures. Their heinous actions follow a month of

1163
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: media driven rhetoric about a transgenocide and calls for a

1164
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,759
Speaker 1: so called trans Day of retribution. In the United States,

1165
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: it is conceivable that much of the conservative public derided assists.

1166
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: It's now open season for gender extremists who have been

1167
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: terrorizing women who dared to speak out against a woke ideology.

1168
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: When they tell you what they intend to do, believe them.

1169
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:01,680
Speaker 1: So Hale has posted nothing about a trans Day of Retribution,

1170
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: has posted nothing publicly about being trans. Really, there's not

1171
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:11,640
Speaker 1: a single post discussing their gender identity online. This is

1172
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: just they're just trying to weird political points by purposely

1173
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,560
Speaker 1: like making it sound like this person was writing about

1174
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 1: this stuff online. And there's no evidence that they had

1175
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: writing about this stuff, nor is there any of it

1176
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: online that we can find. And yeah, I don't know.

1177
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's basic stuff that people like

1178
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: him do in the aftermath of like any type of

1179
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,679
Speaker 1: event like this. Yeah, you know, we're gonna end now

1180
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 1: because anything pretty much anymore we said would be getting

1181
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 1: into speculation or just belaboring the point about these fucking

1182
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: right wing goals. But I do want to end on

1183
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: a post from a follower, a Twitter personality who I

1184
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: consider to be pretty pretty savvy. They go by Juniper

1185
01:09:55,720 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 1: on Twitter. They noted this fifteen years ago. Anytime a shooting,

1186
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: the would blome it on Muslims, and if it were

1187
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:04,679
Speaker 1: a Muslim, they would go Hogwhile trying to indict all Muslims.

1188
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: They're doing that right now with the Nashville school shooting,

1189
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 1: and we'll try to indict all trans people. Just don't engage.

1190
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: See a Matt Walsh take that is incredibly aggravating. Ignore it.

1191
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 1: See a politician tweet miss gendering the shooter while simultaneously

1192
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: trying to blame all trans people. Ignore it. Anyone with

1193
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 1: a brain and a shred of empathy, we'll see right

1194
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 1: wingers as the psychopaths. They are a lot of trans

1195
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 1: people are rightfully scared in the world right now. People

1196
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 1: hate us without even knowing us, and how amazing we are.

1197
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: Just know that you are loved and we will win.

1198
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: The world cannot hate us forever. Hey, everybody, Garrison and

1199
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 1: I are going to put together a post, a substack

1200
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 1: post sort of synthesizing their research and what I've got

1201
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: so far in the right wing response, and we will

1202
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 1: be posting that up. It'll be at shatter Zone dot

1203
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 1: substack dot com if you want it in an easier

1204
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,759
Speaker 1: text version that you can kind of share with people.

1205
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: Welcome to Dick it happened here. A podcast for the

1206
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 1: Thing is Not Well, We're Here has temporarily been relocated

1207
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: to the UK once again. Oh what I'm awful place

1208
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 1: to be. Lookay, Yeah, I'm your host, Mia Wong, and

1209
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: today with me to talk about things in the Kingdom

1210
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 1: that is united for some reason, is Nick, who is

1211
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 1: a resident nurse there. Nick. How are you doing? I'm

1212
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 1: doing all right? Um, A lot better for being a

1213
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:33,679
Speaker 1: holiday right now. Yeah, yeah, getting getting getting to escape

1214
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 1: the sort of dismal swamp of rainy Rainy Island. Yeah.

1215
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: So on the other hand, there are things that are

1216
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 1: in motion on Turf Island which are interesting and cool

1217
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,600
Speaker 1: and that is on that Okay. So I have no

1218
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 1: idea once again when this is going to come out,

1219
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 1: Like this could be coming out like four weeks from now,

1220
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 1: like there could be six more prime ministers kudos, what's

1221
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:05,879
Speaker 1: going to happen? Um? Yeah, I six could be Richie's

1222
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:08,680
Speaker 1: outlasted the letters unlike our last one. But you know,

1223
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: sorry to anyone who's up to British political memes, that's

1224
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,720
Speaker 1: going to be arcane and inscrutable. And I'm not connecting that.

1225
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: We we we we we ran them through a like

1226
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: two hour British politics boot camp a couple of weeks ago,

1227
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: so hopefully they still remember. Yeah. But so the reason

1228
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 1: thing is so on on on the day we are recording,

1229
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of strikes going on in the UK.

1230
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:33,640
Speaker 1: There have been a bunch of strikes going on in

1231
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 1: the UK for a while. They keep doing this weird okay,

1232
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: this is my this is my, my, my, my, my,

1233
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna do my one bit of what

1234
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 1: what are you guys doing strategically thing, which is okay.

1235
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 1: So they keep having these strikes and then they'll like

1236
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 1: go off strike for like three weeks as like a

1237
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: quote side of good faith for their negotiations, and then

1238
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 1: nothing happens and they go back on strike and it's like, well, okay,

1239
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 1: like you could just not do this. Yeah, so straight

1240
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: strikes have been continuing, and yeah, I wanted to talk

1241
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 1: to you about some of the nurses strikes that's been

1242
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: happening and about the sort of organizing that's been going on,

1243
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: because that's what's been really cool and not reported on enough.

1244
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: I guess the place that I want to start with

1245
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 1: this is with the last rit of deck. Well. I mean,

1246
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: I guess there's been a lot of usteria the UK,

1247
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 1: but I want to kind of start with the last

1248
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 1: sort of decade of austerity and the damage that's been

1249
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,679
Speaker 1: doing to the healthcare system and what what that's looked

1250
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:35,759
Speaker 1: like on your end. So there's a couple of ways

1251
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 1: it's manifests. One is like there's been a centralization of

1252
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 1: healthcare services are closing down of hospitals and making larger

1253
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 1: hospitals and contain more and more specialties. So for instance,

1254
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,760
Speaker 1: my hospital that I work in as a result came

1255
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 1: about the clothing downs about I think three smaller hospitals.

1256
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 1: She is, I mean each hospital that was lost, we

1257
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 1: lost about at least a hundred beds for each one

1258
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 1: that was created. They're centralized into our one. There's been

1259
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 1: massive cut back in like lack of funding and preventive

1260
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:12,839
Speaker 1: healthcare and community healthcare. One interesting example of that manifests

1261
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:17,960
Speaker 1: is like they shifted the provision of community healthcare and

1262
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: social care for new mothers to being run by the

1263
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 1: local council that's like local either county or city, even

1264
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 1: larger cities level government, and then they would put out

1265
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 1: the process where rather than just it goes automatically to

1266
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:35,799
Speaker 1: the NHS, it needs to be put out to tender

1267
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:42,440
Speaker 1: and give like charities or nonprofits or even private healthcare

1268
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 1: providers an opportunity to bid on providing the service. That's

1269
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 1: and that's a terrible winner on the system. Oh no,

1270
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,640
Speaker 1: it's absolutely insane. It's absolutely insane. And what this And

1271
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 1: then the end result of this is the NHS service

1272
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 1: gets it because they're the only one that can actually

1273
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 1: credit credit provide the service. But they have to essentially

1274
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: massively underestimate how much it will cost to run in

1275
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 1: order to run to run the service, because they have

1276
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 1: to they have to underbid the other services that are

1277
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: not going to do Yeah. Wow, and that is a

1278
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 1: terribly designed system. Yeah. And then there's also like introduction

1279
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 1: of like trying to in order to cut back on

1280
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 1: the backlogs that like the cutting down and services have

1281
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: created by like outsourcing some healthcare, some surgeries and stuff

1282
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 1: to private healthcare, private hospitals. But then they're able to

1283
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,880
Speaker 1: just pick and choose the easiest, least whisky, and most

1284
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: profitable ones. And of course, any any complications that result

1285
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 1: of the problems with surgery, issues with treatment, adverse reactions,

1286
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:56,640
Speaker 1: the surgeons fucking it up because they were working overnight

1287
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 1: in order to get extra in order to get some

1288
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: extra money after doing a shift in the NHS hospital,

1289
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:05,000
Speaker 1: which is often the case, then falls back on the

1290
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:10,200
Speaker 1: NHS proper and then in terms of workforce the average

1291
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:14,800
Speaker 1: on average. This isn't just nurses. There's a universal pay

1292
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: scale using the NHS for everyone called the Gender for Change.

1293
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:24,639
Speaker 1: There's a pastry defined that confusing name, but the reason

1294
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:26,280
Speaker 1: for that is it was a very much it was

1295
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 1: a less unified system before, like the early two thousands,

1296
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,559
Speaker 1: everyone knew it was messed up. There was a big

1297
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 1: pushed by unions and also by government who wants to

1298
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 1: rationalize the whole thing to make it make more sense

1299
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 1: in theory, tie people's wage to what they were actually

1300
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: doing more directly in a more consistent way. Hence Agenda

1301
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 1: for Change because there was an agenda for changing off

1302
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 1: what's happening, but it's been in placed over twenty years.

1303
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: And also the name doesn't make sense, but basically everyone

1304
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: on Agenda for Change has on average in the last

1305
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 1: ten years had a twenty percent pay cut in real terms.

1306
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:03,000
Speaker 1: Then doctors and dents because they're special boys love them,

1307
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 1: but you know, have on a different pay scale, and

1308
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 1: junior doctors on average have had an even worse paycut

1309
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 1: of about twenty eight percent. Then there are strikes. There

1310
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,880
Speaker 1: are on strike like right now. Yeah, they're on strike

1311
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 1: right now, And unlike my union, they haven't pissed about

1312
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 1: the government. They've gone straight to a full three days no.

1313
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,480
Speaker 1: Derogation is the term for agreeing to not provide services

1314
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:31,920
Speaker 1: for life or in order to protect patient safety, which

1315
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 1: the RCN went in for in a big way. In

1316
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 1: some ways, they've got it a bit easier, and that

1317
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 1: they can just say, oh, the consultants will do all

1318
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 1: of this, Like that is do you to translate into

1319
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: America to American healthcare that would be attending. And so

1320
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: this strike of junior doctors includes everyone from like their

1321
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 1: first two years post medical school what we call foundation years.

1322
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 1: Possibly that'd be equivalent to internship in America, and then

1323
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: our registrars, so people residing specialty training equivalent of a

1324
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:07,919
Speaker 1: like a resident. I believe the government tried to persuade

1325
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:09,879
Speaker 1: them to call off in order to go into talks,

1326
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 1: but they hadn't made a big show on promise of

1327
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: like we will in good faith, we will call off

1328
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 1: strikes and go into negotiations if the government agrees to

1329
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: have serious formal talks. So they were able to just

1330
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: say to the government, no, you're putting too many preconditions

1331
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: on these talks. We're not doing it until you make

1332
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: until you stop messing us about, whereas unfortunately, in my union,

1333
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 1: the RCM is addicted to protecting the image of nursing

1334
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,679
Speaker 1: and like acting in good faith even when they're dealing

1335
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 1: with someone who have no intention of dealing in good faith. Yeah, which, yeah,

1336
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 1: that that that I don't know as a strategy. It's

1337
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:50,120
Speaker 1: really frustrating because you're just didn't get ent, like you

1338
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,800
Speaker 1: can just get locked in endless negotiations, which is nothing

1339
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 1: is happening, And yeah, it's really frustrating. So provide some

1340
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,600
Speaker 1: stir called contact with this RCN. In England, Wales and

1341
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 1: Scotland Northern Ires a slightly different story, had never had

1342
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:08,720
Speaker 1: a strike until last year. Historically the RCN was an

1343
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 1: anti strike union. Wait, yeah, yes, that's the thing in

1344
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 1: the UK. Yeah, like I know, I know, like the

1345
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: US has a lot of weird, not very good unions,

1346
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 1: but like I don't know, i'much ever heard of really,

1347
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:26,240
Speaker 1: that's yes. Wow, So that changed either in the nineties

1348
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 1: or the early two thousands. I honestly can't remember when

1349
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 1: I tried to look it up, but whenever you trying

1350
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 1: to search this stuff, just your search results are like

1351
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:36,640
Speaker 1: flooded by stuff around the latest round. What you're going

1352
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 1: to understand is the RCN. It's one hundred and six

1353
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 1: years old. It only became a union though about fifty

1354
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 1: years ago. So the RCN is both the union and

1355
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 1: a professional body in that Okay, it also does stuff

1356
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 1: around developed, developed the nursing best practice research and that

1357
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 1: kind of thing, and that's what it existed as originally.

1358
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, like a like a professional association, Yeah, okay, exactly,

1359
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 1: And so it still has a dual structure of its

1360
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: union side, it's professional body side that like develops nursing

1361
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 1: practice and stuff like that. Yeah, well I guess, I guess.

1362
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,240
Speaker 1: I guess that that raises the sort of question of like,

1363
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:25,120
Speaker 1: like what was so like unbelievably like what what what

1364
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 1: what happened like such that for the first time in

1365
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: like one hundred and whatever years they finally went on strike.

1366
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 1: So it's partially a matter of breaking points. The nursing

1367
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 1: turnover in the UK's absolute dog shit. Um, thousands of

1368
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: people leave the profession every year. There's this massive pay

1369
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 1: cut that's happened over the last ten years. Nurse and

1370
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:50,639
Speaker 1: nursing was always underpaid in the UK. To be frank

1371
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 1: there's also then there was the cut in the nursing

1372
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:59,720
Speaker 1: bursary about five years ago. So it used to be

1373
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 1: the government would pay for you to train as a nurse.

1374
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:07,439
Speaker 1: It would also give you not not not like enough

1375
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 1: to be equivalent of the ways of the work you

1376
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 1: were doing. Nursing in the UK has a far higher

1377
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: amount of practice hours than it does in the US.

1378
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 1: I believe it's part of the degree and like a

1379
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 1: lot of that time you're sensibly working as a as

1380
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: a hate c A or CNA as you'd say in America.

1381
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 1: Can you explain what that is for people who don't

1382
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 1: know like medical stuff, so hate a healthcare systet or

1383
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:36,960
Speaker 1: what was it CNA certified nursing assistant. I think what

1384
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:43,600
Speaker 1: stands for is essentially a healthcare worker who does a

1385
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 1: range of like what you describe as nursing tasks button

1386
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 1: but not the role of a registered nurse. So they

1387
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:59,880
Speaker 1: would assist with mobilizing patients, monitoring observations, hygiene, potentially taking blood,

1388
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:03,160
Speaker 1: and some investigations such as setting up an ECG, but

1389
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 1: they wouldn't do more advanced investigations ristanizement, care planning, medication management,

1390
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 1: assessing of patients and that kind of stuff. So yeah,

1391
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:15,719
Speaker 1: like about five years ago, the nursing bursary was cut,

1392
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 1: so then it's became as with every other degree having

1393
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 1: to take out a student loan in order to pursue it.

1394
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:27,640
Speaker 1: And then in twenty eighteen there was a particularly disastrous

1395
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:30,839
Speaker 1: pay deal where the RCM in a number of ways

1396
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 1: just absolutely fun. Not just the RCM, the other healthcare

1397
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 1: unions representing unions representing healthcare workers also messed up hugely,

1398
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 1: but like they really fumbled the ball. It resulted arguably

1399
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 1: some people describe it as the leadership setting up the membership.

1400
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:53,799
Speaker 1: And then after that there was a general an emergency

1401
01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 1: general meeting called the RCM. What's resulted in the entire

1402
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:03,479
Speaker 1: executive being booted. Wow, And around this type leading up

1403
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 1: to that, they're being like increasing like grassroots militancy around

1404
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:11,720
Speaker 1: nurses recognizing that this was an awful situation we were

1405
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 1: in there. This also then resulted in like there were

1406
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 1: various grassroots campaigns started such as like a Nurses United UK.

1407
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 1: We started employing organizing the UK to like act to

1408
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 1: take nurses. There was a concerted effort to put pressure

1409
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:31,759
Speaker 1: on the RCM by like I would say, a radical minority,

1410
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:36,759
Speaker 1: but one that represented like a genuine, genuine feeling among

1411
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 1: nurses on the front line to push for the RCN

1412
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 1: to take a more radical stance. Then at the same time,

1413
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if this was covered in your talk

1414
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 1: in about English politics you're like to our deep dive,

1415
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:56,759
Speaker 1: But Northern I didn't have a government at this point

1416
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 1: because as they are now, the DUP and shin Fain

1417
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 1: had fallen out and legally it has to be both

1418
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:07,759
Speaker 1: of them together as the largest republican and largest unionist

1419
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:11,679
Speaker 1: party Unionists in pro the United Kingdom Party after form

1420
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:16,639
Speaker 1: of government, which meant it was impossible legally for any

1421
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:19,759
Speaker 1: for any pay rise in the NHS in Northern Ireland

1422
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 1: at that time. So there was not a government that

1423
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:27,800
Speaker 1: could legally enact one great and this was and this

1424
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:34,200
Speaker 1: resulted in the twenty nineteen the first strikes by the

1425
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:38,720
Speaker 1: RCN ever and also like the first nursing strikes in

1426
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:41,000
Speaker 1: the NHS in a very long time. I might be

1427
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 1: wrong about this. I think the last ones were like

1428
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 1: in the eighties or the seventies. I might I might

1429
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: be wrong about this though, And this was both called

1430
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 1: by the RCN and one of the other biggest trade

1431
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,760
Speaker 1: unions in the probably the biggest trade union as it's

1432
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:58,400
Speaker 1: a generalist trade union in the NHS Unison. They both

1433
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:00,759
Speaker 1: called strikes at this time and they were magnificant factor

1434
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 1: in getting the Northern Ireland government back meeting alongside other things.

1435
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 1: I'm not going to give ourselves all the credit, but

1436
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:10,640
Speaker 1: it was a significant factor. It off it gets overlooked

1437
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 1: and actually having any pay rise and acted at all

1438
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 1: on the in Northern Ireland. Just to clear for every

1439
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 1: second this this strike was a specifically like a strict

1440
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 1: that was happening for nurses in Northern Ireland. Yeah, in

1441
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. I think it's very important. I think that

1442
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:28,600
Speaker 1: triggered something of a sea change in the RCNA. That

1443
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 1: was kind of the culminating point of like trying to

1444
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 1: push for a more militant attitude on the RCN, and

1445
01:25:36,320 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: it really like wrote the thug gates open and made

1446
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 1: what's happening now possible. Even though a lot of nurses

1447
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 1: in England particularly I can't come on the situation in

1448
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 1: Wales and Northern Ireland, like how much people know about

1449
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:50,720
Speaker 1: you about what was going on, But like a lot

1450
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:52,880
Speaker 1: of nurse in England didn't even know about it. And

1451
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 1: when I was going around the wards pushing for people

1452
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 1: to vote in favor of the strike action, a lot

1453
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,080
Speaker 1: of people didn't weren't aware that that would been a

1454
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 1: thing that had happened until I told them about it.

1455
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:07,680
Speaker 1: Because people in England, as must as England is determined

1456
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 1: to keep Northern Ireland, don't know what's going on, not

1457
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 1: in to any degree, to a terrifying degree. Sometimes I

1458
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 1: would say, yeah, that that sounds like that sounds like

1459
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:22,240
Speaker 1: a thing that happens when you're a colonial power, et cetera,

1460
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 1: et cetera. Well, like I mean like like there was

1461
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: I feel like, well, our equivalent isn't the right term.

1462
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 1: But like around the same time, like people in Puerto

1463
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:34,320
Speaker 1: Rico like ran out their government and almost no one

1464
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: in the US, like like in the commental US has

1465
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:44,519
Speaker 1: like ever heard of it. So yeah, yeah, I would

1466
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 1: say if yeah, if there's not forms going off in

1467
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, people in England aren't paying attention, I would say, yeah,

1468
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,559
Speaker 1: that makes sense. It is also really depressing. Yeah, I

1469
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 1: would like I would say Northern Irelands in the sub

1470
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:01,120
Speaker 1: maybe in some ways of bets an in Puerto Rico

1471
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 1: in that it actually has a degree of political representation

1472
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:08,479
Speaker 1: in the main in the Westminster and starts, even though

1473
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:14,760
Speaker 1: it obviously should have its independence and might. But yeah,

1474
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:17,559
Speaker 1: HBO doesn't even have that as my understanding. Yeah, And

1475
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:20,920
Speaker 1: I mean there's a whole there's a there's a whole

1476
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 1: thing there, Like the Puerto Rican statehood people are like

1477
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 1: weird reactionaries. The independence people are cooler. But also there's

1478
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 1: this whole sort of I don't know, there's there's a

1479
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:35,680
Speaker 1: kind of like there's a kind of paralysis anywhere. It's

1480
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:39,000
Speaker 1: like that, And it's like DC is kind of similar,

1481
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:40,920
Speaker 1: where there's this whole sort of there's this kind of

1482
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:43,519
Speaker 1: paralysis where like nothing's ever going to be done about

1483
01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 1: it other than the US just like basically imposing whatever

1484
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:50,360
Speaker 1: random colonial governor that they've decided to bring in as

1485
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 1: an emergency manager or whatever. Yes, sorrykay, but we are

1486
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,400
Speaker 1: getting we are getting far afield from it as I

1487
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:58,080
Speaker 1: want to start before I put my foot in it. Yeah,

1488
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:03,519
Speaker 1: something about Norman on the whole pistol everyone, Yeah, it's

1489
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: like I didn't even know even less about Bull's got

1490
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 1: about Puerto Rico. Yeah, yeah, I would also say, okay,

1491
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,439
Speaker 1: like so so so people don't get mad at me,

1492
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 1: like all of the US is a quality. It's the

1493
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:24,520
Speaker 1: like the substitute of difference between New York and Hawaii

1494
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico was when like when when we took

1495
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:31,800
Speaker 1: it over. But yeah, yeah, okay, so what we're we're turning,

1496
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 1: We're turning actually, well you know, okay, all right, I

1497
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 1: will I will take this complete interruption of the flows

1498
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 1: as a point to do an ad break. So do

1499
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 1: you know what else is an extensive colonial power that

1500
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 1: who's might cannot be checked. It's it's the products and

1501
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:53,960
Speaker 1: services that support this podcast. Yea, all right and we

1502
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 1: are back. Yeah. So I wanted to move from the

1503
01:28:57,040 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: Northern Ireland strikes to talk about the sort of broader

1504
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:01,840
Speaker 1: strikes that I've been happen in the last like my

1505
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:06,160
Speaker 1: understanding about a year or so, yes, okay, yeah, yeah

1506
01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:08,519
Speaker 1: it is is it picul go longer than that? Yeah?

1507
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: I would you talk about like that? It's like what

1508
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 1: happened to move from the Northern Ireland strikes to the

1509
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:18,879
Speaker 1: current situation so do you mean with specifically NHS strikes

1510
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 1: or like one in the UK specifically with the NHS strikes.

1511
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: But I guess we can talk about the broader way

1512
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:32,679
Speaker 1: you want you or two. So obviously all the ship

1513
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 1: with COVID happened. Yeah, and then we came to the

1514
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 1: payoffer of last year. And at this point they've been

1515
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:43,360
Speaker 1: general building of an attitude that we don't just need

1516
01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 1: a decent pay guys that keeps up inflation, we need

1517
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:51,640
Speaker 1: one that goes towards restoring loss to pay. And the

1518
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 1: RCM leadership after the kicking out of the entire executive

1519
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen kind of on the back foot, kind

1520
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:04,080
Speaker 1: of like wanting to appiece the membership go along with

1521
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 1: it a bit more. Also, we had knew General Secretary

1522
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 1: Pat Collin, who was the Secretary of the Northern Ireland

1523
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:16,719
Speaker 1: SEC of the RCN during the Northern Island strikes, took

1524
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: a more militant position in the pain negotiation in the

1525
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:23,559
Speaker 1: Joint Union pain negotiations with the government towards the end

1526
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: towards the beginning of last year, where the RCN took

1527
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 1: a position of we need inflation plus five percent. Now

1528
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:39,600
Speaker 1: this is a bit of inside baseball, which like I

1529
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:41,760
Speaker 1: don't think I've ever seen officially, but what I know

1530
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:45,160
Speaker 1: from various people involved in these things and like statements

1531
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,719
Speaker 1: by different unions, what my understanding it is the biggest

1532
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,840
Speaker 1: of the trade unions in the NHS in general. The

1533
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:55,519
Speaker 1: Unison put forward line it was only willing to go

1534
01:30:55,640 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 1: for a generic significantly better than inflation paid back like

1535
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:06,240
Speaker 1: pay demand from the government, which the RCM was due

1536
01:31:06,320 --> 01:31:08,639
Speaker 1: to like changing attitude of its membership. What happened when

1537
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:11,240
Speaker 1: it accepted ship a bad deal last time, was not

1538
01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:14,679
Speaker 1: willing to go for a result of the RCM splitting

1539
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 1: from the Joint Union Like Pay Council like the Joint

1540
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 1: Union Council over this issue, which then the offer the

1541
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:28,479
Speaker 1: government's pay thing came in. It said we will do

1542
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:34,400
Speaker 1: a flat one thousand, four hundred for everyone, like on

1543
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:37,320
Speaker 1: all bands, so not a percentage like it normally does.

1544
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:39,080
Speaker 1: And you know, to be honest, if it was a

1545
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:41,760
Speaker 1: significantly higher amount that was better, bigger than inflation for

1546
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,719
Speaker 1: the lower bands, like the lower page works in the NHS,

1547
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:47,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But this

1548
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: one thousand, four hundred isn't good enough for anyone and

1549
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 1: while I'm talking about this, I'm talking about specifically in England.

1550
01:31:56,080 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 1: It was slightly different in Wales and Scotland. I think

1551
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:01,599
Speaker 1: generally slightly better, but it's still far lower than it

1552
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:04,760
Speaker 1: should have been, than it needs to be. And so

1553
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:08,720
Speaker 1: the RCM was the first of the any unions in

1554
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 1: the NHS to say it was balloting, it was doing

1555
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 1: a paid ballot, and this kind of sprung on the

1556
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 1: other unions like a week, two weeks, three weeks later

1557
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:23,280
Speaker 1: all said that they were doing it as well. The

1558
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:26,920
Speaker 1: RCM also, at the same time hired a load of

1559
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:30,960
Speaker 1: organized like paid organizers to support the paid ballot effort.

1560
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 1: And what I'll say is obviously paid organizers. There no

1561
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:42,120
Speaker 1: substitute for rank and file militancy. But it was very helpful,

1562
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 1: to be honest, because I think there was a lot

1563
01:32:44,479 --> 01:32:48,160
Speaker 1: of like militan, a lot of militant sentiment of the RCM.

1564
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 1: But although there were some like rank and file initiatives

1565
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 1: which had had a massive impact on like pushing the

1566
01:32:55,400 --> 01:33:00,120
Speaker 1: RCM to a stronger position, I don't I don't think

1567
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 1: that could have materialized, and there wasn't enough people like

1568
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:05,320
Speaker 1: actually who had an idea about organizing about what it

1569
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 1: meant to go and push through this kind of thing

1570
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 1: to get what we needed in that time frame. Sadly

1571
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 1: I wish that wasn't the case, but I do think

1572
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 1: these paid organizers much is not what I think the

1573
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,639
Speaker 1: correcting model for workplace organizing is. Did help a lot,

1574
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:24,519
Speaker 1: and this then resulted in the RCM strike ballot passing

1575
01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:29,000
Speaker 1: in one hundred and seventy six NHS trusts across the UK.

1576
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:36,280
Speaker 1: Let me just yeah, check that I've got that right, yeah,

1577
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:41,120
Speaker 1: which is huge. It's not all, but it is. It's

1578
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:47,080
Speaker 1: over fifty percent. It's pretty much all trusts in Scotland,

1579
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,599
Speaker 1: all trust in Scotland, all trusts in Northern Ireland, I think,

1580
01:33:50,640 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 1: all by one or two in Wales, and the majority

1581
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:59,360
Speaker 1: in England. It's also worth pointing out the ones that

1582
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 1: didn't pass it. They didn't pass by less than a percentage. Wow,

1583
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:09,480
Speaker 1: they they didn't pass by like ten votes in all cases.

1584
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:12,240
Speaker 1: I think the one in Wales that didn't pass it

1585
01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: was literally by three votes. And it's also worked. I

1586
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:20,080
Speaker 1: think in two thousand and sixteen or two fifteen, anti

1587
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:23,719
Speaker 1: union legislation was passed by the Conservative government which raised

1588
01:34:23,720 --> 01:34:27,280
Speaker 1: the bar you need in order to have to have

1589
01:34:27,439 --> 01:34:33,640
Speaker 1: legal strike industrial action, and under the law as it

1590
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:37,280
Speaker 1: existed a decade ago, every NHS trust that the RCM

1591
01:34:37,320 --> 01:34:44,799
Speaker 1: ballot didn't would have passed the ballot. Also unfortunate timing.

1592
01:34:45,439 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 1: It was happening at the same time as the posts,

1593
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:52,080
Speaker 1: as postal strikes were happening, and in the UK industrial

1594
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:55,120
Speaker 1: ballots for industrial actions to be legal have to happen

1595
01:34:55,160 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 1: by post. A little bit sad. Yeah, it's like guys, yeah,

1596
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:11,560
Speaker 1: full power two of you. Oh God, I wish the

1597
01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:16,160
Speaker 1: timing had been slightly different. Yeah. Yeah. And of all

1598
01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 1: the of all the trust, of all the unions in

1599
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 1: the in the NHS that were passing ballots, the RCM

1600
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 1: was the most successful. We passed it in significantly more

1601
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:30,560
Speaker 1: places than other unions did. Um to my shock, to

1602
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: be honest, because like when I was going around balloting

1603
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 1: or like um talking to people, like on my days off,

1604
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 1: like going on the wards talking talk to people while

1605
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 1: I was at work, everyone was like, yes it was

1606
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 1: in other unions like yes, I'm voting for it. I'm

1607
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 1: waiting on tender hicks, have my ballot. When's my ballot arriving?

1608
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:50,720
Speaker 1: Why is my union not opened their ballot? Yet and

1609
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:55,160
Speaker 1: so like when particularly like other unions didn't pass in

1610
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:58,560
Speaker 1: my trust, I was really shocked. I was really confused,

1611
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:03,679
Speaker 1: and it seems like a lot of them didn't actually

1612
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 1: want to fight to a degree in that like they

1613
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: were opening it because the RCN had opened it. I'm

1614
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:12,200
Speaker 1: certain people in those unions might discrib me, but that's

1615
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 1: really I find it really hard to understand how these

1616
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 1: unions that have historically they're all none of them are

1617
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:20,559
Speaker 1: that that militant, you know, but they all have a

1618
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:23,960
Speaker 1: history of strikes and other sectors or organizing for this.

1619
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:27,719
Speaker 1: They'd never had been anti strike unions unis in particular.

1620
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:32,600
Speaker 1: It was there came about like several unions being collamorated,

1621
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:37,599
Speaker 1: like joining together, including unions that have been founded by

1622
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 1: nurses in the seventies in reacting to like the RCM

1623
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,320
Speaker 1: being anti strike and going on like that was the

1624
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 1: last big wave of nursing strikes at that time. So

1625
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:52,080
Speaker 1: that really shocked me. This has been It can happen here.

1626
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:54,479
Speaker 1: I join us tomorrow for approchu of the interview, and

1627
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,120
Speaker 1: in the meantime you can find us on Twitter and Instagram.

1628
01:36:57,160 --> 01:36:59,680
Speaker 1: That happened here a pod and you can find us

1629
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:17,080
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at call Zone Media. Welcome to it

1630
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:21,439
Speaker 1: can happen here a podcast increasingly about nurses strikes and yeah,

1631
01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:23,320
Speaker 1: this is part two of our inter of you with Nick,

1632
01:37:23,439 --> 01:37:27,400
Speaker 1: a nurse in the UK. Enjoy. We've entered the tafty

1633
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:29,840
Speaker 1: turfy land where the RCNC used to be the people

1634
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:31,800
Speaker 1: who are like leading on the militancy in this in

1635
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:35,080
Speaker 1: this front where yeah, yeah, and I think part of

1636
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:37,920
Speaker 1: it comes down to us because the RCM was historically

1637
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:41,320
Speaker 1: a sneaking part city was not a union, became a

1638
01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 1: union later in the day for then eight was for

1639
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:48,600
Speaker 1: ages anti strike. A lot of unions because like we

1640
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:50,839
Speaker 1: could talk about the John critique of unions and particularly

1641
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:55,639
Speaker 1: like institutional unions, how they service providers, how they build

1642
01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:01,240
Speaker 1: up like a protective bureaucracy against merchants ruggle or against

1643
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 1: like glass roots militancy. Then it's not a particularly democratic

1644
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:09,000
Speaker 1: as these things go, but it doesn't have that kind

1645
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:11,880
Speaker 1: of built up institutional inertia in the trade union side

1646
01:38:12,240 --> 01:38:15,680
Speaker 1: because historically hasn't needed it. And that meant I think

1647
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:19,879
Speaker 1: it was actually far more susceptible. It's two grassroots pressure

1648
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 1: and militancy then some of the other more established unions

1649
01:38:25,040 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 1: were and that's sorry no, and that kind of like

1650
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:33,519
Speaker 1: was the thin end of the webs for the rcenter

1651
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:36,760
Speaker 1: takers boastrong stance over the pay rise in response to

1652
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:40,000
Speaker 1: like glass roots organizing and like a demand from the

1653
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:42,680
Speaker 1: grassroots to do that, which then results in them like

1654
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 1: bad tip strike action first, which then meant other unions

1655
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:49,800
Speaker 1: had to and then we got the and then the

1656
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:54,240
Speaker 1: cascade of like strikes in the NHS have occurred since then.

1657
01:38:56,720 --> 01:39:02,040
Speaker 1: So this this is a very very broad question to

1658
01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 1: be asking, But how have the strikes been going. That's

1659
01:39:11,320 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 1: kind of a difficult one to say. So Scotland, for instance,

1660
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 1: has not been called out, has not actually had any

1661
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 1: strike dage because the Scottish government went into negotiations to

1662
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:26,760
Speaker 1: begin with and then made an offer, it was rejected,

1663
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 1: strikes were announced, they made another, agreed to come back

1664
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 1: to negotiations. So like it's been effective been getting something

1665
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:36,840
Speaker 1: moving in Scotland. Their current offer of fifteen percent over

1666
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:40,320
Speaker 1: two years, so six something this year, five something next

1667
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:44,799
Speaker 1: year is currently being voted on by the RCA membership.

1668
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: It's not it's not a good but it's a significant

1669
01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:52,679
Speaker 1: movement of what came before. Wales the Welsh government after

1670
01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:55,880
Speaker 1: saying no, we can't have any more money. We can't

1671
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:59,960
Speaker 1: we literally cart because Westminster controls our budget. Westminster work

1672
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:02,920
Speaker 1: give us any more budget for this has now made

1673
01:40:02,920 --> 01:40:08,280
Speaker 1: an improved, an improved offer. It's crap, but it's like

1674
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:10,960
Speaker 1: something it's foresome to shift when they were claiming it

1675
01:40:11,040 --> 01:40:13,519
Speaker 1: was physically impossible for them to do it, which every

1676
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:17,120
Speaker 1: single time, Like I can think of exactly one time

1677
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:19,920
Speaker 1: ever where I've seen an employer make that demand and

1678
01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 1: it was actually true. But this is not like that.

1679
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:25,760
Speaker 1: That was that was like what Norfolk Southern in like

1680
01:40:26,800 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 1: like the nineteen seventies, and it's it was only true

1681
01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:31,840
Speaker 1: once and it's never been true ever since then. Like

1682
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 1: you will hear this from every fucking employer who you

1683
01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:36,840
Speaker 1: attempt to go on track against, and they're always lying,

1684
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:40,680
Speaker 1: like every single time. What I will say is like

1685
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:43,360
Speaker 1: in the case of Wales, it is very true. The

1686
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:47,479
Speaker 1: Welsh Government's budget is set by Westminster, by the central government.

1687
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 1: So it's a lie, but it's a plausible lie. Yeah,

1688
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,880
Speaker 1: And Wales is generally massively Wales is like some of

1689
01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:58,400
Speaker 1: the highest rates of child poverty outside of Eastern Europe.

1690
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:02,360
Speaker 1: In Europe, the reasons. Part of the reasons for this

1691
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:05,719
Speaker 1: is because the Welsh government is chronically underfunded. Yeah, yeah,

1692
01:41:06,240 --> 01:41:09,639
Speaker 1: due to political decisions made in England, but it's still

1693
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:16,040
Speaker 1: not true. And then in England, right, it's got to

1694
01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 1: the point where a government who are categorically opposed to

1695
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:23,439
Speaker 1: any negotiations with trade unions have actually come to the

1696
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:26,960
Speaker 1: negotiating tables. So from that, although a suspectible loads of

1697
01:41:27,000 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 1: preconditions that haven't been publicly talked about, and they're going

1698
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:32,720
Speaker 1: to not make a credible offer in my view and

1699
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:34,960
Speaker 1: as a stalling tactic, but the fact they even chose

1700
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:38,320
Speaker 1: to come to the table atol. I hate saying this

1701
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:39,880
Speaker 1: because it makes it's the kind of thing that makes

1702
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 1: people complace ship. But that is actually quite big that

1703
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:46,160
Speaker 1: the Conservative government actually agreed to do it, to come

1704
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:49,599
Speaker 1: to negotiating table. Stopped hiding behind oh there's an independent

1705
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 1: paybody that decides these things. Stop saying it's we can't

1706
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:55,840
Speaker 1: afford to fund the NHS anymore. Actually just coming and

1707
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:59,120
Speaker 1: sitting at the table atoll to negotiate. It's like a

1708
01:41:59,160 --> 01:42:02,639
Speaker 1: big movement of itself. Now, if we talk about numbers

1709
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 1: of participation in strikes, there's been a lot of difficulties,

1710
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:14,600
Speaker 1: a lot of nowhere near as many people have participated

1711
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:17,400
Speaker 1: into strikes as should have been. I will be frank

1712
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 1: and say so now we're going to talk about the delegations,

1713
01:42:20,640 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 1: the situation delegations, which is like the RCN voluntarily saying

1714
01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:27,599
Speaker 1: we will allow this many people to continue working day

1715
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 1: these days and these areas in order to maintain patient safety,

1716
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:34,559
Speaker 1: which is, on one hand, we don't want any patients

1717
01:42:34,600 --> 01:42:37,320
Speaker 1: to die obviously. On the other hand, it's a very

1718
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:41,120
Speaker 1: easily abused stance to take. And there are just nurses

1719
01:42:41,160 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 1: who are in other trade unions who who aren't a

1720
01:42:44,439 --> 01:42:48,160
Speaker 1: trade unions as well, and ultimately, if they want that

1721
01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:50,320
Speaker 1: not to happen, they need to just come to the

1722
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:53,760
Speaker 1: table earlier. And so this result in a process where

1723
01:42:55,120 --> 01:43:00,880
Speaker 1: so I to you, and like time sensitive chemo and

1724
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 1: pediatric A and e'es were derogated by default, and then

1725
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:11,320
Speaker 1: there was an agreement of if the wards had less

1726
01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:16,080
Speaker 1: than like nighttime numbers, we would agree for a small

1727
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:20,800
Speaker 1: amount of our of our membership to go in to

1728
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:24,560
Speaker 1: work on those wards to maintain nighttime numbers for the

1729
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 1: sake of patients safety. But that had to be applied

1730
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 1: for them on a case by case bas basis. But

1731
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:36,880
Speaker 1: there's a couple of problems with this one. Trust just

1732
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:40,280
Speaker 1: not taking it seriously, lying and not trying to establish

1733
01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:44,439
Speaker 1: these things to make accurate requests, leaving it to the

1734
01:43:44,520 --> 01:43:47,120
Speaker 1: last minute, and then asking for blanket derogations. We don't

1735
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:49,640
Speaker 1: know if it's going to be safe or not. Managers

1736
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 1: like ward managers not actually knowing what was agreed and

1737
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:55,400
Speaker 1: to giving incorrect information to their staff, people not understanding

1738
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:58,640
Speaker 1: what was and wasn't derogated, And just generally it was

1739
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 1: a system that was very open abuse and so like

1740
01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:07,880
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of things were just left

1741
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:11,840
Speaker 1: open in general or like that shouldn't have been. But

1742
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 1: at the same time, I know that it didn't happen

1743
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:19,160
Speaker 1: in every case, but like there was a lot of

1744
01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:21,840
Speaker 1: success in like going memps, the strike committee going around

1745
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,080
Speaker 1: wards and saying no, you're over number, you need to

1746
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:29,400
Speaker 1: come out, and people doing it. Of like surgeries being canceled,

1747
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:32,880
Speaker 1: like elective surgeries, nontime sensitive surgeries being canceled due to it,

1748
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 1: of like really making hospital managers sweat over like proving

1749
01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:39,720
Speaker 1: each thing needed to happen, they wanted and needed to

1750
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:42,640
Speaker 1: happen those days. All of it's built up. Even if

1751
01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:44,320
Speaker 1: we didn't get the full amount of people we should

1752
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 1: have had out on strike, on strike really built up

1753
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:50,519
Speaker 1: the pressure significant degrees on them to them, put the

1754
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:54,120
Speaker 1: pressure up the chain of the NHS to the governments,

1755
01:44:54,120 --> 01:44:55,880
Speaker 1: like we can't keep on going on like this. And

1756
01:44:56,000 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 1: at the same time each set of strikes, the where

1757
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:04,800
Speaker 1: people participating did increase, so like for instance, I've just

1758
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:12,160
Speaker 1: got the government statistics from that the fifteenth of December,

1759
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:14,759
Speaker 1: I think it is, so this was the first strike

1760
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:20,880
Speaker 1: day that was called. It was nine thousand, nine hundred

1761
01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:25,160
Speaker 1: and ninety nine absences due to industrial action. Then on

1762
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 1: the twentieth it was eleven thousand, five hundred and nine.

1763
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:33,560
Speaker 1: Then on the eighteenth and nineteenth of January, and just

1764
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:37,720
Speaker 1: one important fact that they didn't call all hospitals out

1765
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:41,760
Speaker 1: at once again I think a mistatus. Strategic mistakes should

1766
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:45,080
Speaker 1: have gone hard, gone hard fast. But the ivory was

1767
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 1: we just we don't have the facilities to organize all

1768
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:51,320
Speaker 1: of this effectively on all of these last amounts, because

1769
01:45:51,320 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 1: like it was a huge amount of trusts they needed

1770
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 1: to do that with. But then on those days it

1771
01:45:57,240 --> 01:46:02,519
Speaker 1: was then eleven thousand, three hundred and sixty three and

1772
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:05,080
Speaker 1: eleven thousand, two hundred and nineteen across those two days.

1773
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:11,320
Speaker 1: Then in February it was fifteen thousand, nine hundred ninety eight,

1774
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:16,519
Speaker 1: and then I'm fourteen on the second day, fourteen thousand

1775
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:21,040
Speaker 1: and then fifty eight people, which is far lower than

1776
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:23,439
Speaker 1: it should have been. I can't remember how many people

1777
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:25,559
Speaker 1: there are nurses are on the NHS, so I should

1778
01:46:25,560 --> 01:46:28,080
Speaker 1: have had that statistic relity, but it's not an inconsiderate amount.

1779
01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 1: It meant lots about patients appointments being canceled, a lot

1780
01:46:30,680 --> 01:46:34,360
Speaker 1: of surgeries being canceled, a lot of chaos and stress

1781
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:38,280
Speaker 1: for managers of the NHS and therefore for the government.

1782
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:42,040
Speaker 1: Are looking really bad for them, And it's a clear

1783
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:45,559
Speaker 1: upwards trajectory, which meant that when they are seeing announced

1784
01:46:45,600 --> 01:46:48,320
Speaker 1: we're going to do two days consecutive, we're not. We're

1785
01:46:48,320 --> 01:46:49,600
Speaker 1: going to keep it going through the night, which they

1786
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:53,200
Speaker 1: hadn't done previously, and we're not doing derogations. It to you,

1787
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,960
Speaker 1: we'll be staffed, nothink, we're not doing anything else. I

1788
01:46:57,040 --> 01:46:59,320
Speaker 1: think no, even it tou wasn't staffed. We'd considered on

1789
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 1: a case by case spaceis we won't be considered what

1790
01:47:01,840 --> 01:47:07,360
Speaker 1: sorry intensive care? I see you for America? Okay yeah. Um.

1791
01:47:07,479 --> 01:47:11,439
Speaker 1: So that meant that at that point the government prob like, okay,

1792
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:13,479
Speaker 1: we need to move to a new delaying tactic. They're

1793
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:18,320
Speaker 1: not just going to give up. And I think with that,

1794
01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:21,800
Speaker 1: as it went on, like people were itching an itching

1795
01:47:21,840 --> 01:47:26,160
Speaker 1: to go further. And so for instance, like A and

1796
01:47:26,240 --> 01:47:30,160
Speaker 1: E was derogated, So which is the area I work in?

1797
01:47:31,040 --> 01:47:34,120
Speaker 1: But like a lot of people and this is reflective

1798
01:47:34,160 --> 01:47:36,559
Speaker 1: of like most areas that were derogated. When I spoke

1799
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:38,680
Speaker 1: to people, we weren't them like, no, we need to

1800
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:41,439
Speaker 1: be out, we need to be out the picket line.

1801
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:44,559
Speaker 1: And like after the first two rounds, there was also

1802
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:47,400
Speaker 1: a growing effort to like try and find out from

1803
01:47:47,439 --> 01:47:51,160
Speaker 1: the membership what the actual situation was so there on

1804
01:47:51,320 --> 01:47:54,320
Speaker 1: like staffing on the wards, because all wards are chronically understaffed.

1805
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:57,120
Speaker 1: So when they said, oh, well we need this are

1806
01:47:57,200 --> 01:47:59,120
Speaker 1: people say, no, we know that's alive, we know one

1807
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:01,800
Speaker 1: nights there's that's the only three redisted nurses. There's not

1808
01:48:01,880 --> 01:48:04,320
Speaker 1: the four you're claiming, and stuff like that. It's again

1809
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:06,240
Speaker 1: I think it was a really positive move in like

1810
01:48:08,479 --> 01:48:11,960
Speaker 1: embedding a kind of like workers inquiry of workers knowledge

1811
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:15,640
Speaker 1: about their workplace into the organizing of the strike that

1812
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:22,600
Speaker 1: had been quite a top down process. But yeah, and

1813
01:48:22,720 --> 01:48:25,880
Speaker 1: I'm kind of worried about how this delay and break

1814
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:28,960
Speaker 1: in the strike action will affect that momentum that had

1815
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:31,920
Speaker 1: been building up. I think, like to a large degree,

1816
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:35,519
Speaker 1: people are like itching to go again, and I think

1817
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 1: that desire to go again is building as it goes.

1818
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:42,000
Speaker 1: Like when it initially happened, when this starts initially called off,

1819
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:45,280
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like trust, like in like

1820
01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:47,160
Speaker 1: the big WhatsApp groups and stuff and talk to people,

1821
01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:49,640
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like people thinking of at

1822
01:48:49,760 --> 01:48:51,719
Speaker 1: least I don't know if this was represent general opinion,

1823
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:53,720
Speaker 1: but people being quite vocal a because I know, we

1824
01:48:53,800 --> 01:48:56,000
Speaker 1: need to trust like Pat knows what she's doing, they

1825
01:48:56,040 --> 01:48:57,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't have called it off of this thing. It's like

1826
01:48:57,640 --> 01:48:59,640
Speaker 1: it's getting more and more those people being like, no,

1827
01:49:00,040 --> 01:49:03,120
Speaker 1: we need to, we need to go, we need to

1828
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:05,920
Speaker 1: we need to get back on the picket line. And

1829
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 1: there's been a petition that's been going around that's been

1830
01:49:08,960 --> 01:49:11,400
Speaker 1: getting quite a bit of news, like setting out some

1831
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:15,240
Speaker 1: hard lines like four to the end R and c

1832
01:49:16,200 --> 01:49:20,400
Speaker 1: leadership about what kind of stuff is should accept, like saying, no,

1833
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:23,000
Speaker 1: we need to stick to the above inflation busting, we

1834
01:49:23,080 --> 01:49:24,640
Speaker 1: need to not compromise on this, we need to not

1835
01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:27,120
Speaker 1: compromising this, which is I think got eight hundred and

1836
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:30,360
Speaker 1: eighty signatures at the moment. It doesn't sound like a

1837
01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:33,880
Speaker 1: huge amount, but like again you're going through quite a

1838
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:36,040
Speaker 1: lot of immersial of like attitude of like you've got

1839
01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:38,439
Speaker 1: to leave it to the leadership among the membership, even

1840
01:49:38,479 --> 01:49:40,960
Speaker 1: when they were unhappy with it. And it's only a

1841
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:45,960
Speaker 1: thousand signatures that are necessary in the RCNS where the

1842
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 1: RCM works to call an extraordinary general meeting, which they

1843
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:50,519
Speaker 1: can do pretty much whatever it wants. And that's how

1844
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:54,439
Speaker 1: the leadership in two and eighteen was kicked out after

1845
01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:58,200
Speaker 1: the bad pay deal. Then, But that's really interesting. Yeah,

1846
01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:02,000
Speaker 1: so like the RCN very undemocratic except for this one

1847
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:04,560
Speaker 1: particular thing. Yeah, is it Is it a normal thing? That?

1848
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:06,360
Speaker 1: Is it like a normal thing for unions in the

1849
01:50:06,600 --> 01:50:08,400
Speaker 1: in the UK? Or is that just like a most

1850
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:13,519
Speaker 1: most I think all unions have an amount of people,

1851
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:16,960
Speaker 1: a set amount where if like memberships calling for an

1852
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:19,519
Speaker 1: extraordinary general meeting, they have to do it. The RCNS

1853
01:50:19,560 --> 01:50:23,400
Speaker 1: one is really low interesting essentially, and like there were

1854
01:50:23,479 --> 01:50:25,880
Speaker 1: some moves were like people in the r C leads

1855
01:50:25,880 --> 01:50:27,120
Speaker 1: to say, oh, we need to change it, we need

1856
01:50:27,160 --> 01:50:29,840
Speaker 1: to give into that, we need we need to raise

1857
01:50:29,920 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 1: it to be more in line with other unions. But

1858
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:39,160
Speaker 1: that again is something that will have to that if

1859
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:40,880
Speaker 1: that does happen, that kind of change we'd have to

1860
01:50:40,920 --> 01:50:44,120
Speaker 1: go to like a membership wide vote. It's not something

1861
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:48,240
Speaker 1: the executive leadership could just impose that's good. Yeah, Yeah,

1862
01:50:50,000 --> 01:50:53,479
Speaker 1: So like there is a process of like these strikes

1863
01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:58,840
Speaker 1: were like a result of like increasing general level of

1864
01:50:59,160 --> 01:51:03,400
Speaker 1: militancy were among nurses in general and among NHS workers,

1865
01:51:03,439 --> 01:51:09,120
Speaker 1: and I think particularly because everyone knows it's awful the situation,

1866
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 1: and then with like a slightly more organized than spear

1867
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:18,640
Speaker 1: and if they're resulted in that in that petition in

1868
01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:22,400
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen arguing for stuff at like congresses and things,

1869
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 1: and then that's what actual strike has like got the

1870
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:29,960
Speaker 1: membership feeling like they should have a more active role.

1871
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 1: And I think it's pushing things in a positive direction,

1872
01:51:32,800 --> 01:51:34,800
Speaker 1: even though I think the rc and leaderships has gotten

1873
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:37,760
Speaker 1: to a point where by mistake, it ended up way

1874
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:39,680
Speaker 1: ahead of the other unions and it's now trying to

1875
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:43,040
Speaker 1: bear battle. But I don't I think there's a lot

1876
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:47,759
Speaker 1: of potential for like more grassroots organized by the membership

1877
01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:51,280
Speaker 1: to prevent that happening. Yeah. We are in a difficult

1878
01:51:51,320 --> 01:51:53,679
Speaker 1: position though that the time is running out. Strike mandates

1879
01:51:53,680 --> 01:51:57,639
Speaker 1: in the UK only last for six months. We are

1880
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:02,600
Speaker 1: and the government that Greek negotiations were at two and

1881
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:05,320
Speaker 1: a half months left of the mandate, it's now two

1882
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 1: months left of the mandate. You have to give two

1883
01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 1: weeks notice before strike action. Oh so that's that that

1884
01:52:11,160 --> 01:52:13,080
Speaker 1: that's that's what to sort of like run out the

1885
01:52:13,120 --> 01:52:17,840
Speaker 1: clock strategies about on their side. Okay, that makes sense exactly. Now,

1886
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:20,599
Speaker 1: nothing's to stop us from reballoting. Yeah, but it will

1887
01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:22,360
Speaker 1: be a whole process. It has to be a month.

1888
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:26,320
Speaker 1: You have to go through the mail. Yeah, it will

1889
01:52:26,320 --> 01:52:29,760
Speaker 1: be drawn out. We'll buy them a lot more time. Yeah,

1890
01:52:33,080 --> 01:52:35,160
Speaker 1: that's post. The workers, I think are on strike again

1891
01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:39,479
Speaker 1: today too, I think maybe I think so, let me,

1892
01:52:39,600 --> 01:52:42,559
Speaker 1: I've got the strike calendar up on my computer. Let's

1893
01:52:42,560 --> 01:52:44,840
Speaker 1: see who's on strike and absolutely fraud. I have it

1894
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:46,560
Speaker 1: on my other computer, but I don't have it on

1895
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:52,480
Speaker 1: this one. Yeah, so it shays the fifteen today, Amazon's

1896
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:57,479
Speaker 1: on striking Coventry, the BBC's regil services, the civil service,

1897
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:03,400
Speaker 1: which it would kind of be equivalent to like a

1898
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:09,960
Speaker 1: federal stuff um in America. So like fince, it's my dad,

1899
01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:13,040
Speaker 1: who's a health and safety inspector is on strike today,

1900
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:17,240
Speaker 1: h MRC, which is the tax officers on strike, junior

1901
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:21,400
Speaker 1: doctors on strike, offstead. The school has structs on spike strike,

1902
01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:26,719
Speaker 1: the l the two main rail unions on strike, teaches

1903
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:29,400
Speaker 1: on strike, and university stuff on strike. Not the postal

1904
01:53:29,479 --> 01:53:33,639
Speaker 1: service today. But yeah, yeah, well, I guess I guess

1905
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:35,719
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask a bit about that too, about

1906
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:37,760
Speaker 1: sort of just what what's been happening. I don't know

1907
01:53:37,840 --> 01:53:39,679
Speaker 1: what what what you see as sort of the potential

1908
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:41,719
Speaker 1: of the of the broader strikes have been happened, because

1909
01:53:41,760 --> 01:53:44,920
Speaker 1: this is this is a I don't know, I mean,

1910
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:48,800
Speaker 1: it's not it's not it's not like a like it's

1911
01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:51,360
Speaker 1: it's not like a nineteen seventies style like strike wave,

1912
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:53,960
Speaker 1: but it's it's a lot of strikes for the UK

1913
01:53:54,640 --> 01:54:01,200
Speaker 1: in the last decade. It's it's big. There isn't the

1914
01:54:01,400 --> 01:54:04,400
Speaker 1: level of cross union cooperation and talks that you would want.

1915
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:07,559
Speaker 1: There's a lot of like people turning up to each

1916
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:11,479
Speaker 1: other's picket lines. There's a lot of like solidarity present,

1917
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:16,240
Speaker 1: but it's not coalescing into like a into like a

1918
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:21,360
Speaker 1: unified movement which is hoping to be. Although I do

1919
01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:25,439
Speaker 1: think if something doesn't change, it is moving in that direction.

1920
01:54:26,040 --> 01:54:28,400
Speaker 1: And like the Conservative government is at like an all

1921
01:54:28,439 --> 01:54:33,680
Speaker 1: time loan it's popularity ratings. Yeah, I think. I don't

1922
01:54:33,720 --> 01:54:37,680
Speaker 1: know if you're aware from this quote from Margaret that's

1923
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 1: yet about how her main political goal was remaking the

1924
01:54:41,520 --> 01:54:47,360
Speaker 1: soul of Britain away because like up until that period

1925
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,120
Speaker 1: there was a very strong trade union movement in the

1926
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:52,920
Speaker 1: UK that it had like one of the best social

1927
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:58,160
Speaker 1: democracies in the world, like comparable to Scandinavia today. It

1928
01:54:58,320 --> 01:55:01,840
Speaker 1: was it was far more like active attitude in the UK.

1929
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:04,200
Speaker 1: And like Margaret factor is explicit, I kind of the

1930
01:55:04,240 --> 01:55:06,680
Speaker 1: exact quote, but explicit project and the project or the

1931
01:55:06,720 --> 01:55:08,680
Speaker 1: Conservative Party at the time. Let's not put it all

1932
01:55:08,720 --> 01:55:11,280
Speaker 1: on her, great woman theor of histories as bad as

1933
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:15,920
Speaker 1: great man of history to move the soul of the

1934
01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:19,120
Speaker 1: like general social attitude and personality of like people in

1935
01:55:19,200 --> 01:55:23,960
Speaker 1: Britain away from that like orientations like community and the

1936
01:55:24,040 --> 01:55:28,680
Speaker 1: collective struggle and action. And there is a part of

1937
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:32,200
Speaker 1: me that feels like this is a move away from

1938
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:36,320
Speaker 1: that because like everyone you go to there's winging about

1939
01:55:36,360 --> 01:55:39,280
Speaker 1: like an inconvenience cause by strike, but pretty much everyone

1940
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:42,360
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, those they have it, it's awful for them.

1941
01:55:42,440 --> 01:55:45,200
Speaker 1: It's all the strike drivers. Good on them for standing

1942
01:55:45,280 --> 01:55:48,080
Speaker 1: up for themselves. Good on the teachers for standing up

1943
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:50,320
Speaker 1: for themselves. Good on postal workers were standing up for themselves.

1944
01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 1: Good on nurses were standing up for themselves. Like the

1945
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 1: amount of like stuff I've been brought by people on

1946
01:55:56,840 --> 01:56:00,800
Speaker 1: the picket lines has been in credits, Like I each

1947
01:56:00,880 --> 01:56:03,360
Speaker 1: day I've just been like rolling down for hill from

1948
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,080
Speaker 1: my hospital to my house like a bloated stomach from

1949
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 1: like stuff members of the public import and drop top

1950
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:12,160
Speaker 1: of the pick it line. It's um. It makes me

1951
01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:15,440
Speaker 1: feel like it's there is the optimist part of me.

1952
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:19,000
Speaker 1: It does feel like there is a reorientation in general

1953
01:56:19,320 --> 01:56:22,160
Speaker 1: of British public to the idea that we don't have

1954
01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:25,360
Speaker 1: to put up with this, yeah, and you don't have

1955
01:56:25,480 --> 01:56:27,640
Speaker 1: to struggle and try and get it on your own.

1956
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:29,600
Speaker 1: And like it's early days yet, but I do see

1957
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:33,200
Speaker 1: something positive moving in that direction in the UK. As

1958
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 1: to this strike wave, Yeah, that's a that is I

1959
01:56:37,720 --> 01:56:40,040
Speaker 1: don't know that that is great news from a place

1960
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:43,760
Speaker 1: that does not usually generate great news. This is like

1961
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:45,920
Speaker 1: the this is the deeply optimistic part of me. On

1962
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:48,440
Speaker 1: the other hand, you have like bad a lot of

1963
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:54,160
Speaker 1: bad news coming out of the UK. Yeah, like this

1964
01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:57,160
Speaker 1: strike wave is good news. It is the fact that

1965
01:56:57,240 --> 01:56:59,440
Speaker 1: it's happening in the NHS in particular, which has been

1966
01:56:59,480 --> 01:57:04,080
Speaker 1: so resist to industrial action historically, and also just because

1967
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:07,320
Speaker 1: of how what significant part of the economy it is

1968
01:57:07,360 --> 01:57:10,920
Speaker 1: as well, because like you know, the NHS is the

1969
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 1: eighth biggest employer in the world. Wow, you know it's

1970
01:57:14,160 --> 01:57:17,520
Speaker 1: in the world. That's that's wild. Yeah, Like it used

1971
01:57:17,520 --> 01:57:20,480
Speaker 1: to be like the fifth biggest in the world. Wow,

1972
01:57:21,640 --> 01:57:25,000
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it used to only be that the American Army,

1973
01:57:25,040 --> 01:57:29,240
Speaker 1: the Chinese army, mcdawns of Walmart would be it would

1974
01:57:29,240 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 1: be overtaken by Amazon and such. Now but yeah, yeah,

1975
01:57:33,560 --> 01:57:38,360
Speaker 1: like like strike action, so like from like a workers' perspective,

1976
01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:41,720
Speaker 1: like strike action of like the largest section of the workforce,

1977
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:45,560
Speaker 1: nurses in the NHS, the biggest in plowing the world,

1978
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:49,760
Speaker 1: leaving aside the situation for everything else in the UK,

1979
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 1: leaving aside their history of the opposition, like the active

1980
01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:58,560
Speaker 1: opposition to the idea of striking within nursing the historically

1981
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:01,440
Speaker 1: in the UK is huge news and something to be

1982
01:58:01,520 --> 01:58:03,960
Speaker 1: hopeful about. And then put into context of the more

1983
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:07,160
Speaker 1: broader strikeway in the UK and within the NHS in general,

1984
01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:10,720
Speaker 1: this is huge and it is a sign I think,

1985
01:58:11,160 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 1: or positive change and like reontation towards workplace struggle occurring.

1986
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:23,000
Speaker 1: I think. So I've now heard two different places do this,

1987
01:58:23,400 --> 01:58:25,840
Speaker 1: which was I heard this in Chile in twenty nineteen,

1988
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:27,720
Speaker 1: and I heard this also on my picket line at

1989
01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:31,160
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago in twenty nineteen, which is, I like,

1990
01:58:31,360 --> 01:58:34,760
Speaker 1: I this is the place dear liberalism was born, and

1991
01:58:34,800 --> 01:58:37,760
Speaker 1: we will kill it here. And I mean those are

1992
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:42,360
Speaker 1: the three places, Yeah, Chicago and the UK. Yeah, I think.

1993
01:58:42,360 --> 01:58:45,040
Speaker 1: I think also arguably Germany, although that has a whole

1994
01:58:45,160 --> 01:58:53,080
Speaker 1: other rdal libs are all the libs. From my understanding

1995
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: of it, from listening to some things about years ago,

1996
01:58:55,800 --> 01:58:58,080
Speaker 1: it's it's more of a family resemblance than the exact

1997
01:58:58,120 --> 01:59:00,240
Speaker 1: same thing as near liberalism. Yeah, I mean, I think

1998
01:59:00,320 --> 01:59:04,240
Speaker 1: if we're gonna I think they got absorbed into the

1999
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:07,600
Speaker 1: neoliberal bubble so far as like like they're they're the

2000
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:11,200
Speaker 1: order libs are where the neo liberals got the sort

2001
01:59:11,240 --> 01:59:14,360
Speaker 1: of like we need to have like an international bureaucracy,

2002
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:18,160
Speaker 1: like the legal bureaucracy from like hyak is also like

2003
01:59:18,200 --> 01:59:20,040
Speaker 1: heavy of all. Yeah that that's that's the whole of this, right,

2004
01:59:20,080 --> 01:59:21,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, like it is. It is encouraging to me

2005
01:59:21,800 --> 01:59:24,840
Speaker 1: that it's like, I don't know, like like the it

2006
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 1: really does seem like in the places where the liberals

2007
01:59:27,640 --> 01:59:31,000
Speaker 1: was bored, it's like it's starting to come apart. Yeah,

2008
01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:33,360
Speaker 1: And you know, I know people people have been predicting

2009
01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:39,680
Speaker 1: the death of neoliberalism for like long, well almost as

2010
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,720
Speaker 1: long as I've been alive. But I don't know this

2011
01:59:43,080 --> 01:59:47,000
Speaker 1: this like the fact that it's happening in these places

2012
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:53,720
Speaker 1: seems different than it does seem. I think it is significant.

2013
01:59:54,520 --> 02:00:00,040
Speaker 1: I think I'm I am cautiously excited every time I

2014
02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:03,560
Speaker 1: hope something bad happens, but I am hopeful now. And

2015
02:00:03,880 --> 02:00:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, my brain is a magic so it can't

2016
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:12,360
Speaker 1: be a cause of effect there. Yeah, but I don't know.

2017
02:00:12,440 --> 02:00:14,879
Speaker 1: I mean, like you are the second person I've interviewed

2018
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:18,160
Speaker 1: from the UK who actually seemed to be like somewhat

2019
02:00:18,200 --> 02:00:20,720
Speaker 1: optimistic above the direction you could possibly be going, which

2020
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:23,200
Speaker 1: is the first time I've heard that in Like, I mean,

2021
02:00:23,240 --> 02:00:26,200
Speaker 1: I guess you're people who are optimistic about Corbin, but yeah,

2022
02:00:26,240 --> 02:00:27,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is this is the first sort

2023
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:33,400
Speaker 1: of like signs of that since I don't know a

2024
02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 1: long time, and I think, yeah, look like if I

2025
02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:38,760
Speaker 1: was host of the American listens, like, if turf Island

2026
02:00:38,880 --> 02:00:42,520
Speaker 1: isn't doomed, then we're not doomed either. I don't know.

2027
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:45,960
Speaker 1: Here's what I gonna say, Well, you're taking us on

2028
02:00:46,080 --> 02:00:51,000
Speaker 1: that it's true. Yeah we have Yeah, I am Yeah,

2029
02:00:51,440 --> 02:00:53,240
Speaker 1: I don't know when this is coming out, but I'm

2030
02:00:53,280 --> 02:00:55,240
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna be honest man. Like, there's a lot

2031
02:00:55,280 --> 02:00:57,280
Speaker 1: of ways the UK is better than the magic. Yeah,

2032
02:00:57,320 --> 02:00:59,960
Speaker 1: the US, like is it's a it's a real disaster,

2033
02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:05,000
Speaker 1: like it's it's yeah. Yeah, I mean I think we're

2034
02:01:05,040 --> 02:01:07,560
Speaker 1: both equally banned a lot of ways. Yeah, I think

2035
02:01:07,600 --> 02:01:10,080
Speaker 1: the things and the things that like people in the

2036
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:12,680
Speaker 1: US look at England say this is awful of the

2037
02:01:12,760 --> 02:01:15,080
Speaker 1: things people in the UK look at the US and

2038
02:01:15,120 --> 02:01:19,520
Speaker 1: say this is awful. It's it's kind of a a

2039
02:01:19,640 --> 02:01:22,640
Speaker 1: child looking at their parent and being pissed off at them,

2040
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:25,080
Speaker 1: and a child and a child and a parent looking

2041
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:29,360
Speaker 1: at their child and being disappointed in them. No, no,

2042
02:01:29,600 --> 02:01:34,240
Speaker 1: you both suck. It's family resemblance. It's we hate us

2043
02:01:34,320 --> 02:01:38,200
Speaker 1: for It's a narcissism of small differences like yeah, between

2044
02:01:38,200 --> 02:01:42,880
Speaker 1: the US and the UK K a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2045
02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:44,800
Speaker 1: I guess do you have anything else do you want

2046
02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:48,040
Speaker 1: to say about the strikes? I think the fact it

2047
02:01:48,200 --> 02:01:51,680
Speaker 1: got this far is incredible. There's so much supermor that

2048
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:57,839
Speaker 1: needs to go. Um. I'm really excited and I'm really scared.

2049
02:01:59,480 --> 02:02:01,560
Speaker 1: I think this is the potential for like a turning

2050
02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:06,120
Speaker 1: point around, both for the NHS but for my profession

2051
02:02:06,200 --> 02:02:10,360
Speaker 1: for nursing and also like in general in the context

2052
02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:13,800
Speaker 1: the wide strike bastion for the UK. But you know,

2053
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:19,000
Speaker 1: the higher the stakes, the higher the perils. Like this

2054
02:02:19,240 --> 02:02:22,160
Speaker 1: is our I think this is our fight to lose, essentially,

2055
02:02:23,080 --> 02:02:26,240
Speaker 1: Like I think if we do it, if we go

2056
02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:30,440
Speaker 1: seriously and like the membership takes controls of it from

2057
02:02:30,520 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 1: like the leader, from their union leadership, which is very cautious,

2058
02:02:33,600 --> 02:02:36,640
Speaker 1: which has been put put into position of being more

2059
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:40,520
Speaker 1: miller of like unprecedented millings to see almost by accident,

2060
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:45,680
Speaker 1: we're trying to appease the membership. We can achieve something incredible,

2061
02:02:45,760 --> 02:02:49,880
Speaker 1: but it's really the book's open. It can go either way,

2062
02:02:50,080 --> 02:02:55,400
Speaker 1: and like I'm excited and I'm terrified by it. Yeah,

2063
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:59,160
Speaker 1: if people want to support the strikes, where can they go?

2064
02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:02,680
Speaker 1: Is there a strike they can donate to? The RCM

2065
02:03:02,760 --> 02:03:06,360
Speaker 1: has an open strike fund. I would invite anyone listening

2066
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:12,960
Speaker 1: to donate too. I would also like find the articles

2067
02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:15,400
Speaker 1: about the petition that've been going around, like the mind

2068
02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:19,240
Speaker 1: of the rcmle ship takes a stronger stance, and like

2069
02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:24,200
Speaker 1: just share that around generally create more visibility on that. Yeah,

2070
02:03:24,240 --> 02:03:28,320
Speaker 1: well we'll put links to both of those in the description. Yeah,

2071
02:03:29,560 --> 02:03:34,000
Speaker 1: those are the main things I would suggest. Again, the

2072
02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:37,360
Speaker 1: national nature of this struggle and the fact that it's

2073
02:03:37,400 --> 02:03:40,320
Speaker 1: not even really against our direct employers makes it harder

2074
02:03:40,360 --> 02:03:42,800
Speaker 1: to talk specifically about this thing or that thing in

2075
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:46,040
Speaker 1: some ways. But yeah, those are the two things I

2076
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:48,840
Speaker 1: would ask, Like, the big our strike pot, the easier

2077
02:03:48,880 --> 02:03:53,000
Speaker 1: it is to argue for more aggressive action, and the

2078
02:03:53,200 --> 02:03:57,360
Speaker 1: more visibility goes on that petition, the more you'll take

2079
02:03:57,400 --> 02:04:00,560
Speaker 1: a lot more than a petition to like shifts things

2080
02:04:00,600 --> 02:04:04,520
Speaker 1: to the roots, to being in the forefront and the

2081
02:04:04,600 --> 02:04:07,120
Speaker 1: leadership position of this. But it's something that will make

2082
02:04:07,160 --> 02:04:09,640
Speaker 1: people feel more empowered to put more pressure on the leadership.

2083
02:04:10,360 --> 02:04:13,720
Speaker 1: It's like a small stepping point towards what we need.

2084
02:04:14,920 --> 02:04:17,360
Speaker 1: I'd also like to recommend a book to anyone who

2085
02:04:17,440 --> 02:04:19,800
Speaker 1: wants to find out more about the history of the

2086
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:23,120
Speaker 1: NHS and the current situation. Some comrades of mine like

2087
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:28,720
Speaker 1: from a group called the Ambi Workers and also revolution.

2088
02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:30,600
Speaker 1: I always forget the other group. They did it with

2089
02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:35,880
Speaker 1: his name, This is embarrassing. Yeah, anarchist communist group wrote

2090
02:04:36,560 --> 02:04:39,160
Speaker 1: and Healthcare Workers United, which is like a network I'm

2091
02:04:39,200 --> 02:04:41,640
Speaker 1: involved in, put together a book called Sick of It,

2092
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:44,960
Speaker 1: which is like a collection of workers inquiries and reflections

2093
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 1: on the NHS. It's history, it's potentials and what and stuff.

2094
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:52,400
Speaker 1: That's really a great book. Sadly not available as any book,

2095
02:04:52,480 --> 02:04:54,320
Speaker 1: but it's it's an excellent read and like it will

2096
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:56,200
Speaker 1: tell you. We'll give you a real insight into what

2097
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:58,560
Speaker 1: the NHS has been historically and what it is now

2098
02:04:58,640 --> 02:05:02,760
Speaker 1: for anyone who's interested in that. That's awesome. Yeah, the

2099
02:05:02,760 --> 02:05:05,040
Speaker 1: angry workers are really cool. By the way, they're on Twitter.

2100
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:12,040
Speaker 1: I probably should have. It's probably just angry workers. Yeah,

2101
02:05:13,120 --> 02:05:16,640
Speaker 1: yeah it is. Oh wait, no, I'm wrong, it's it's workers.

2102
02:05:16,760 --> 02:05:23,400
Speaker 1: It's at workers angry I think wait, no, no, it's yeah,

2103
02:05:23,400 --> 02:05:26,720
Speaker 1: it's at work. Is angry? It is? Yeah. Yeah, I'm

2104
02:05:26,720 --> 02:05:29,080
Speaker 1: not on Twitter. I don't. I don't know about these things.

2105
02:05:30,040 --> 02:05:33,600
Speaker 1: It is. It is a cursed place. Um yeah, getting works.

2106
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:37,080
Speaker 1: Oh god. Yeah. If you want to want to find

2107
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:42,760
Speaker 1: us at Twitter, we are at cools one Media. Um yeah,

2108
02:05:42,800 --> 02:05:45,880
Speaker 1: we're also on Instagram. I'm told we're on Instagram. I

2109
02:05:45,920 --> 02:05:48,960
Speaker 1: don't have one, so I don't know. This is what

2110
02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:51,560
Speaker 1: I've been being told from many years. If we don't,

2111
02:05:52,360 --> 02:05:56,160
Speaker 1: don't tell me. Uh yeah, And thank you all for listening.

2112
02:05:56,360 --> 02:06:01,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, go do your own strikes at make boss's lives, mister. Please.

2113
02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:03,200
Speaker 1: The more strikes are going on, the more people want

2114
02:06:03,200 --> 02:06:21,640
Speaker 1: to go on strike. Hey, okay, hello, and welcome to

2115
02:06:21,680 --> 02:06:24,839
Speaker 1: it could happen here a podcast. It is about today,

2116
02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:28,560
Speaker 1: about labor organizing and about what happens after a strike

2117
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:32,360
Speaker 1: in a labor organization. I'm joined, I'm James. If you

2118
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:35,000
Speaker 1: hadn't guessed and I'm joined by several people from the

2119
02:06:35,120 --> 02:06:37,760
Speaker 1: UCSD Dollar Lunch Club. We're going to talk about the

2120
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:39,800
Speaker 1: UC strike and we're going to talk about mutual aid

2121
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:42,120
Speaker 1: organizing in the wake of the strike. If you would

2122
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:45,960
Speaker 1: like to introduce yourselves, that would be great. I'm Alex.

2123
02:06:46,160 --> 02:06:49,400
Speaker 1: I use she, they pronounce I'm Matt and I use

2124
02:06:49,520 --> 02:06:52,640
Speaker 1: he him. Hi. Everyone, my name is Maria. I am

2125
02:06:52,680 --> 02:06:55,880
Speaker 1: a PhD student at UCSD, and I use she her

2126
02:06:55,960 --> 02:07:01,520
Speaker 1: pronounce I'm anna and I use the pronounce amazing. Thank

2127
02:07:01,560 --> 02:07:04,880
Speaker 1: you very much, guys. So I think people probably haven't

2128
02:07:04,960 --> 02:07:07,120
Speaker 1: heard much from us about the uc strike since we

2129
02:07:07,360 --> 02:07:11,839
Speaker 1: last sort of had some episodes around December and January,

2130
02:07:12,040 --> 02:07:13,840
Speaker 1: and obviously it's been a couple of months since then.

2131
02:07:14,320 --> 02:07:18,160
Speaker 1: So the resolution of that strike was kind of contentious, right,

2132
02:07:18,240 --> 02:07:20,400
Speaker 1: And a lot of the organizing that you guys have

2133
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:22,400
Speaker 1: been doing came out of the campaign to vote no

2134
02:07:22,880 --> 02:07:26,760
Speaker 1: on the I guess the ballot after the strike right

2135
02:07:27,520 --> 02:07:31,920
Speaker 1: to vote no and the tentative agreement, which ultimately didn't succeed. Right,

2136
02:07:31,960 --> 02:07:35,720
Speaker 1: the tentative agreement, there was a yes vote, and I

2137
02:07:35,800 --> 02:07:39,880
Speaker 1: wonder if you could all explain kind of like it's

2138
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:42,240
Speaker 1: obvious how the yes vote was organized right within the

2139
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:45,560
Speaker 1: structure of a union which which exists, to which I

2140
02:07:45,680 --> 02:07:48,960
Speaker 1: had obviously made disagreement with the you see in this case,

2141
02:07:49,080 --> 02:07:51,520
Speaker 1: and then it's a job of the people who made

2142
02:07:51,560 --> 02:07:53,800
Speaker 1: that agreement to then get a yes vote on that agreement.

2143
02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:55,960
Speaker 1: But can you explain a little bit about how the

2144
02:07:56,120 --> 02:07:59,600
Speaker 1: no vote campaign came together and maybe if someone could

2145
02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:03,680
Speaker 1: also made some of the substantive issues that you felt

2146
02:08:03,680 --> 02:08:10,480
Speaker 1: would satisfactory resolved in that intensive agreement. Yeah, the no

2147
02:08:10,680 --> 02:08:14,600
Speaker 1: vote was the end of a very long process of

2148
02:08:15,160 --> 02:08:20,920
Speaker 1: us feeling like the bargaining team was making progressively worse

2149
02:08:21,080 --> 02:08:28,040
Speaker 1: and worse decisions and basically using submission as a tactic

2150
02:08:28,560 --> 02:08:32,960
Speaker 1: to improve gains in bargaining. We felt like that was

2151
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:38,240
Speaker 1: not a great tactic. So the upshot of the no

2152
02:08:38,520 --> 02:08:43,440
Speaker 1: vote campaign was that fundamentally we felt that the bargaining

2153
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:47,960
Speaker 1: team had not fought hard enough. They had made repeated

2154
02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:53,640
Speaker 1: U sacrifices of our core demands UH drastically cutting our

2155
02:08:53,680 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 1: fifty four thousand U wage demands are cola, and that

2156
02:09:00,360 --> 02:09:04,200
Speaker 1: we felt, particularly since it was during the winter break

2157
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:08,800
Speaker 1: and we had his home time to you know, stretch

2158
02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:10,360
Speaker 1: it out a little bit further, that if we had

2159
02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:12,640
Speaker 1: gone back to the bargaining table at that point, that

2160
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:16,200
Speaker 1: we would have been able to recoup some of those demands.

2161
02:09:17,360 --> 02:09:21,440
Speaker 1: I don't think there was like a consensus that it

2162
02:09:21,640 --> 02:09:26,400
Speaker 1: was like obvious that uh, like union resources would exclusively

2163
02:09:26,480 --> 02:09:31,000
Speaker 1: be used for yes vote stuff either maybe partially, but

2164
02:09:31,360 --> 02:09:37,120
Speaker 1: that was one part of like the major conflict was that,

2165
02:09:37,400 --> 02:09:41,600
Speaker 1: like when some of us were trying to do like

2166
02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:47,520
Speaker 1: a text banking campaign for like, uh no vote stuff,

2167
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:52,200
Speaker 1: I know of at least one person who like feared

2168
02:09:52,320 --> 02:09:58,000
Speaker 1: for their career because like their colleague was like, you're

2169
02:09:58,080 --> 02:10:03,960
Speaker 1: misusing like per personally a personal information that like this

2170
02:10:04,200 --> 02:10:07,000
Speaker 1: isn't why people like agreed to give it to the union,

2171
02:10:07,200 --> 02:10:09,680
Speaker 1: and like you can't just take it and use it

2172
02:10:10,640 --> 02:10:14,480
Speaker 1: for like, you know, campaigning for your no vote stuff.

2173
02:10:14,520 --> 02:10:17,040
Speaker 1: But then we were like, this is for a union purpose,

2174
02:10:17,960 --> 02:10:22,720
Speaker 1: why can't we like contact people on the same topic

2175
02:10:23,000 --> 02:10:26,200
Speaker 1: that all of us are getting a bajillion mass texts

2176
02:10:26,240 --> 02:10:29,720
Speaker 1: about um and so like I do think that was

2177
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:33,920
Speaker 1: also a point of contention within that like like the

2178
02:10:34,160 --> 02:10:42,720
Speaker 1: union does not share resources amongst, like amongst people who

2179
02:10:42,880 --> 02:10:48,040
Speaker 1: are campaigning for different sides of like ballad issues, right, yeah, yeah,

2180
02:10:48,080 --> 02:10:50,240
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like there wasn't like a like an

2181
02:10:50,320 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 1: open channel where like people could have an open discussion,

2182
02:10:53,320 --> 02:10:57,440
Speaker 1: but at least using the text banking function at least. Yeah,

2183
02:10:57,560 --> 02:11:04,640
Speaker 1: we we have been old um that in the event

2184
02:11:04,880 --> 02:11:08,400
Speaker 1: that a variument chain did not have a unanimous vote

2185
02:11:09,160 --> 02:11:15,360
Speaker 1: in favor of TAA, the agreement that both sides would

2186
02:11:15,400 --> 02:11:18,520
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to use union resources learned to campaign

2187
02:11:18,600 --> 02:11:22,600
Speaker 1: for their their preference, and that that didn't turn actually

2188
02:11:22,640 --> 02:11:26,240
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah, that's that's upsetting. And so how did

2189
02:11:26,320 --> 02:11:29,560
Speaker 1: you organize because it was it wasn't like the nervote

2190
02:11:29,560 --> 02:11:32,240
Speaker 1: campaign is only the four people here right, Like it

2191
02:11:32,400 --> 02:11:35,920
Speaker 1: was a very substantive campaign that the large number of

2192
02:11:35,960 --> 02:11:38,240
Speaker 1: people supported and voted for. It wasn't like this is

2193
02:11:38,280 --> 02:11:42,320
Speaker 1: a kind of ninety nine percent yes situations. How did

2194
02:11:42,360 --> 02:11:45,160
Speaker 1: you all organize for the nervote campaign when you didn't

2195
02:11:45,160 --> 02:11:48,760
Speaker 1: have access to those resources. It was a pretty distributed

2196
02:11:48,880 --> 02:11:51,920
Speaker 1: network of for instance, signal chats, so a lot of

2197
02:11:52,200 --> 02:11:57,760
Speaker 1: signal what'sapp discord groups, and it was it was very grassroots.

2198
02:11:57,880 --> 02:12:01,200
Speaker 1: So if you knew someone in one of those groups,

2199
02:12:01,280 --> 02:12:05,960
Speaker 1: they would add you. M Yeah, I'm sure Matt and

2200
02:12:06,200 --> 02:12:08,600
Speaker 1: Allison have more to add, I think they were in

2201
02:12:08,680 --> 02:12:12,680
Speaker 1: some very large group chats. Yes, and those group chats

2202
02:12:12,800 --> 02:12:17,000
Speaker 1: on were both on the UC San Diego campus as

2203
02:12:17,040 --> 02:12:21,200
Speaker 1: well as statewide, so you know, this this wasn't just

2204
02:12:21,440 --> 02:12:24,880
Speaker 1: something that UC San Diego was voting on, right, this

2205
02:12:25,160 --> 02:12:31,160
Speaker 1: was all of the California campuses. We also had a

2206
02:12:31,560 --> 02:12:37,520
Speaker 1: strike Center which involved in towards the end of our

2207
02:12:37,600 --> 02:12:42,400
Speaker 1: active picketing before winter break, a number of people from

2208
02:12:42,440 --> 02:12:46,240
Speaker 1: all different departments migrated from their pickets. Who was more

2209
02:12:46,320 --> 02:12:51,320
Speaker 1: central location And although it was not synonymous with and

2210
02:12:52,880 --> 02:12:57,200
Speaker 1: it was unofficially kind of seen as the dissidents side,

2211
02:12:57,320 --> 02:13:00,560
Speaker 1: the vast majority of people who participated in the strike

2212
02:13:00,720 --> 02:13:03,760
Speaker 1: center were I ended up being no voters when the

2213
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:09,480
Speaker 1: time came. I think Anna is pretty right in saying

2214
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:12,360
Speaker 1: that a lot of the organization was like a distributed,

2215
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:17,240
Speaker 1: decentralized thing across signal chats. Like in my experience, there was,

2216
02:13:17,320 --> 02:13:23,160
Speaker 1: for example, the Disability Justice Coalition, who've done a lot

2217
02:13:23,320 --> 02:13:28,440
Speaker 1: on you know, accommodations and disability rights and things like that,

2218
02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:32,600
Speaker 1: and so they were approaching things from different angles than

2219
02:13:33,640 --> 02:13:37,000
Speaker 1: other chats that were like, you know, doing like oh,

2220
02:13:37,640 --> 02:13:41,600
Speaker 1: here is a list of emails from you know, uci

2221
02:13:41,880 --> 02:13:44,840
Speaker 1: of grad students in this department, please feel free to

2222
02:13:44,960 --> 02:13:47,280
Speaker 1: email it. And you know, like so there was like

2223
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:50,360
Speaker 1: a diversity of tactics there, if that makes sense. So

2224
02:13:51,760 --> 02:13:55,680
Speaker 1: it was like a lot of like petitioning emails, talking

2225
02:13:55,880 --> 02:13:59,480
Speaker 1: one on one with people, so me personally, and several

2226
02:13:59,560 --> 02:14:02,280
Speaker 1: people that I know like set up meetings with like

2227
02:14:02,360 --> 02:14:04,800
Speaker 1: their labmates and just be like, hey, how are you doing,

2228
02:14:04,920 --> 02:14:07,640
Speaker 1: so have you heard of what's going on? Things like that,

2229
02:14:07,840 --> 02:14:11,520
Speaker 1: which I think are very normal union things to do.

2230
02:14:12,280 --> 02:14:18,200
Speaker 1: I did find that like official, like not maybe not official,

2231
02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:21,560
Speaker 1: but in my department, we had two people kind of

2232
02:14:21,640 --> 02:14:24,920
Speaker 1: take up like union liaison roles, and they tended to

2233
02:14:25,040 --> 02:14:29,600
Speaker 1: be more like yes voters rather than no voters, And

2234
02:14:29,720 --> 02:14:33,480
Speaker 1: I found that their form of communication to us never

2235
02:14:34,400 --> 02:14:37,360
Speaker 1: had that kind of like reaching out to other people.

2236
02:14:37,520 --> 02:14:40,920
Speaker 1: They would say like, hey, there's a campus oc happening

2237
02:14:40,960 --> 02:14:43,760
Speaker 1: at five pm, but they wouldn't reach out to members

2238
02:14:43,800 --> 02:14:47,360
Speaker 1: of the department to get everyone's opinion until like week three,

2239
02:14:47,440 --> 02:14:50,200
Speaker 1: week four of the strike. So you know, I think

2240
02:14:50,320 --> 02:14:55,240
Speaker 1: what no Voters did excel at was reaching out to

2241
02:14:55,320 --> 02:15:01,760
Speaker 1: people individually and like actually like going out to different labs,

2242
02:15:01,840 --> 02:15:05,760
Speaker 1: two different departments and talking with people like either one

2243
02:15:05,840 --> 02:15:09,080
Speaker 1: on one or within small groups. So me personally as

2244
02:15:09,120 --> 02:15:12,360
Speaker 1: well as another member of the Dollar Lunch Club actually

2245
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:17,600
Speaker 1: canvassed around graduate housing. So we during the ratification, but

2246
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:21,360
Speaker 1: we were literally like holding stacks of paper and saying like, hey,

2247
02:15:22,040 --> 02:15:24,520
Speaker 1: this is kind of the layout of what you'll be

2248
02:15:24,640 --> 02:15:28,040
Speaker 1: paid for each month that the union, like the UAW

2249
02:15:28,400 --> 02:15:31,960
Speaker 1: is not showing you, Like if you're in you know,

2250
02:15:32,960 --> 02:15:36,120
Speaker 1: in this year, you're going to be getting a barely

2251
02:15:36,240 --> 02:15:39,080
Speaker 1: like two hundred dollar raise for these several months. That

2252
02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 1: kind of thing, which is like very you know, that

2253
02:15:43,280 --> 02:15:49,160
Speaker 1: information just was not made accessible or made clear by

2254
02:15:49,240 --> 02:15:52,560
Speaker 1: the UAWN. For me, that was purposefully done, at least

2255
02:15:52,600 --> 02:15:55,120
Speaker 1: in my opinion, that was purposefully done. So I think

2256
02:15:55,160 --> 02:15:59,200
Speaker 1: the diversity of tactics there that the no voters incorporated.

2257
02:15:59,440 --> 02:16:02,200
Speaker 1: And it was only after we started canvassing around graduate

2258
02:16:02,240 --> 02:16:05,200
Speaker 1: housing that we started seeing yes, voters also canvassing around

2259
02:16:05,240 --> 02:16:08,080
Speaker 1: graduate housing and tearing down the posts that we had

2260
02:16:08,120 --> 02:16:11,800
Speaker 1: put on other people's doors. Yeah, so it got contentious,

2261
02:16:11,880 --> 02:16:16,280
Speaker 1: but I think because we didn't have those official resources

2262
02:16:16,360 --> 02:16:20,480
Speaker 1: that the UAW usually or at least our chapter of

2263
02:16:20,560 --> 02:16:25,040
Speaker 1: the UAW usually can depend on, such as like oh,

2264
02:16:25,080 --> 02:16:27,360
Speaker 1: an official mailing list, and then we'll just like send

2265
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:30,240
Speaker 1: you or basically spam you a bunch of updates. We

2266
02:16:30,360 --> 02:16:34,520
Speaker 1: had to work around that by doing more personal meetings by,

2267
02:16:36,280 --> 02:16:39,360
Speaker 1: for example, in the last week of the strike, facilitating

2268
02:16:39,600 --> 02:16:44,920
Speaker 1: group lunches right where multiple departments would come together, bring food,

2269
02:16:45,160 --> 02:16:48,760
Speaker 1: cook like nine ten in the pots worth of stews

2270
02:16:48,879 --> 02:16:51,440
Speaker 1: for everyone, and then that would be an opportunity for

2271
02:16:51,560 --> 02:16:54,280
Speaker 1: me to talk to people that I have never talked

2272
02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:56,640
Speaker 1: to in my life, from like completely different departments and

2273
02:16:56,720 --> 02:16:59,640
Speaker 1: tell them like, hey, I don't think this is looking

2274
02:16:59,720 --> 02:17:04,440
Speaker 1: really good for us, especially like we have very different conditions,

2275
02:17:04,920 --> 02:17:09,160
Speaker 1: very different working conditions, and just overall you may be

2276
02:17:09,280 --> 02:17:11,880
Speaker 1: part of the SRU, I'm part of two eight six five,

2277
02:17:12,280 --> 02:17:15,640
Speaker 1: here's how we should talk. So again, that was because

2278
02:17:16,280 --> 02:17:20,240
Speaker 1: the UAWU was not utilizing those avenues of getting people

2279
02:17:20,320 --> 02:17:22,800
Speaker 1: to talk to each other. So I'm not sure I

2280
02:17:22,959 --> 02:17:25,640
Speaker 1: kind of went off topic, but I wanted to like

2281
02:17:26,000 --> 02:17:29,760
Speaker 1: really hammer home that because we didn't have all those resources,

2282
02:17:29,800 --> 02:17:33,440
Speaker 1: we had to rely on kind of these like how

2283
02:17:33,480 --> 02:17:36,760
Speaker 1: should they say, like very distributed, piecemeal strategies of like

2284
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:39,119
Speaker 1: oh well let's do something here. This isn't going to work.

2285
02:17:39,160 --> 02:17:42,040
Speaker 1: For this department. Let's do that for this department. You know,

2286
02:17:42,879 --> 02:17:45,039
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. It does. I think it's really

2287
02:17:45,040 --> 02:17:46,520
Speaker 1: cool because I think that's how there's a lot of

2288
02:17:46,560 --> 02:17:49,640
Speaker 1: people can learn if they're interested in organizing their own workplaces. Right,

2289
02:17:49,720 --> 02:17:53,320
Speaker 1: whether it's organizing for a vote unattenative agreement, or it's

2290
02:17:53,360 --> 02:17:56,640
Speaker 1: just organizing to form collective bargaining in the first place,

2291
02:17:56,879 --> 02:17:59,119
Speaker 1: or to deal with a particular issue with your bosses,

2292
02:17:59,120 --> 02:18:03,040
Speaker 1: whatever it is, there's grassroots things work, especially when you

2293
02:18:03,120 --> 02:18:09,000
Speaker 1: don't have the this giant, sort of massive union apparatus.

2294
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:13,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to say, like, um, just with like what

2295
02:18:13,520 --> 02:18:17,480
Speaker 1: it feels like like to be in like all of

2296
02:18:17,640 --> 02:18:23,440
Speaker 1: the different chats, um, because like, at at the peak

2297
02:18:23,520 --> 02:18:27,040
Speaker 1: of everything, I was like probably sending you like a

2298
02:18:27,200 --> 02:18:31,400
Speaker 1: dozen different Google docs a day. Um, it was all

2299
02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:35,960
Speaker 1: just like like, we'll start a different group chat for

2300
02:18:37,800 --> 02:18:39,680
Speaker 1: It was all just we'll start a different group chat

2301
02:18:39,760 --> 02:18:44,359
Speaker 1: for the specific purpose of like nobody's talking about disability justice,

2302
02:18:44,400 --> 02:18:47,160
Speaker 1: and so we want to talk about disability justice in here,

2303
02:18:47,800 --> 02:18:52,240
Speaker 1: and we've decided this forum is not good. And then

2304
02:18:52,360 --> 02:18:56,160
Speaker 1: somebody in the chat goes like, well, I'm with people

2305
02:18:56,240 --> 02:19:01,080
Speaker 1: who are also interested in like furthering this topic. And

2306
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't see them any of them doing something like

2307
02:19:04,080 --> 02:19:11,600
Speaker 1: you know, um like analyzing uh like reanalyzing the like

2308
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:15,440
Speaker 1: housing market data and not just like taking the uaw's

2309
02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:18,080
Speaker 1: word for it, or like like doing a little bit

2310
02:19:18,120 --> 02:19:21,920
Speaker 1: of like forensic accounting on the university and then posting

2311
02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:25,720
Speaker 1: the Google doc and saying like, hey, I did some

2312
02:19:26,000 --> 02:19:30,000
Speaker 1: like forensic accounting on the university. This is something that

2313
02:19:30,080 --> 02:19:32,760
Speaker 1: we can use in arguments and also is like evidence

2314
02:19:32,800 --> 02:19:37,680
Speaker 1: of X or YU. So yeah, just a lot of people.

2315
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:40,760
Speaker 1: It helps. Also it helps to be any union full

2316
02:19:40,800 --> 02:19:43,880
Speaker 1: of grad students. Yeah, you do. You have a lot

2317
02:19:43,920 --> 02:19:47,720
Speaker 1: of useful skills. It can also be very taxing organizing

2318
02:19:47,840 --> 02:19:53,640
Speaker 1: that way, Like it can be really I know, it's

2319
02:19:53,640 --> 02:19:55,600
Speaker 1: a lot of being on your phone, and it's a

2320
02:19:55,680 --> 02:19:58,560
Speaker 1: lot of like your phone vibrating and and you're having

2321
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:01,199
Speaker 1: to switch your focus from some like in depth discussion

2322
02:20:01,240 --> 02:20:04,360
Speaker 1: of disability justice to a discussion of like why the

2323
02:20:04,440 --> 02:20:07,880
Speaker 1: rent is so damn high in Santa Cruz and so

2324
02:20:08,160 --> 02:20:12,720
Speaker 1: like it can be really like I guess, I don't know,

2325
02:20:12,800 --> 02:20:14,840
Speaker 1: I'm not a person who does well with that kind

2326
02:20:14,840 --> 02:20:17,560
Speaker 1: of shit, and so like I wonder if there's anything

2327
02:20:17,720 --> 02:20:20,360
Speaker 1: because this happened a lot in twenty twenty two. Right

2328
02:20:20,400 --> 02:20:23,000
Speaker 1: when we look at how the George Floyd uprising or

2329
02:20:23,040 --> 02:20:24,960
Speaker 1: the uprising for back Lives, whatever you want to call it,

2330
02:20:25,120 --> 02:20:27,080
Speaker 1: was organized. There was also a whole lot of signal

2331
02:20:27,160 --> 02:20:29,560
Speaker 1: chats that I know for a lot of people I

2332
02:20:29,600 --> 02:20:32,160
Speaker 1: spoke to like they just couldn't handle the signal chats.

2333
02:20:33,600 --> 02:20:37,520
Speaker 1: So I wonder if there's anything that you learned during

2334
02:20:37,560 --> 02:20:41,200
Speaker 1: that organizing process that you would like to pass on

2335
02:20:41,280 --> 02:20:44,920
Speaker 1: to people who are interested in organizing going forward. One

2336
02:20:45,320 --> 02:20:52,000
Speaker 1: thing I'll say is it became pretty clear that, you know,

2337
02:20:52,120 --> 02:20:55,840
Speaker 1: the people who had created the signal chats or the

2338
02:20:55,920 --> 02:21:03,279
Speaker 1: WhatsApp chats were the ones who were able to monitor, manipulate,

2339
02:21:03,920 --> 02:21:08,760
Speaker 1: shut it down, which happens to our campus picket leaders

2340
02:21:09,360 --> 02:21:15,520
Speaker 1: organizing chat after the no vote had already failed. Was

2341
02:21:15,560 --> 02:21:19,960
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks later during the Joint Council meeting

2342
02:21:20,120 --> 02:21:25,960
Speaker 1: of the aw and UM. You know, the the discourse

2343
02:21:26,360 --> 02:21:30,800
Speaker 1: and the arguments that were happening there, while certainly very

2344
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:38,680
Speaker 1: painful and vociferous, were also you know, very connecting to

2345
02:21:38,800 --> 02:21:41,320
Speaker 1: the campus. Lots of different departments were on there, so

2346
02:21:41,480 --> 02:21:43,800
Speaker 1: we still got a lot of ideas about you know,

2347
02:21:43,879 --> 02:21:46,840
Speaker 1: what other departments were thinking of, UM And with the

2348
02:21:47,600 --> 02:21:49,800
Speaker 1: locking down of that chat, which was kind of a

2349
02:21:49,959 --> 02:21:52,320
Speaker 1: unilateral action on the part of one of the moderators,

2350
02:21:52,879 --> 02:21:57,480
Speaker 1: that just really ended a lot of campus discussion and

2351
02:21:58,160 --> 02:22:02,000
Speaker 1: in my opinion, further the divide between the two sides.

2352
02:22:03,040 --> 02:22:05,280
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I'll say is, you know,

2353
02:22:05,720 --> 02:22:09,080
Speaker 1: it's really hard from a historical perspective, from a communications

2354
02:22:09,160 --> 02:22:14,200
Speaker 1: perspective to see like that people who are typing slower

2355
02:22:14,560 --> 02:22:19,280
Speaker 1: are not getting their opinions out. People who are in

2356
02:22:19,480 --> 02:22:23,320
Speaker 1: multiple chats are getting certain types of information that other

2357
02:22:23,360 --> 02:22:27,720
Speaker 1: people are not getting. And my words of advice to

2358
02:22:28,480 --> 02:22:31,800
Speaker 1: any any mass movement that is attempting to use these

2359
02:22:31,920 --> 02:22:37,400
Speaker 1: kinds of chat applications are one to be sure that

2360
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:43,720
Speaker 1: you are monitoring for accountability. I've realized very late in

2361
02:22:43,840 --> 02:22:48,120
Speaker 1: the game that you can actually download WhatsApp transcripts, So

2362
02:22:48,160 --> 02:22:50,480
Speaker 1: I download the entire strandscript just in case you've got

2363
02:22:50,640 --> 02:22:54,640
Speaker 1: newt screenshots. Also, you know, people would so why I

2364
02:22:54,680 --> 02:22:56,600
Speaker 1: said this, and you know to this persons who know

2365
02:22:56,959 --> 02:23:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, somebody took screenshot at out before you've deleted it. UM.

2366
02:23:01,120 --> 02:23:04,280
Speaker 1: And the other thing is, you know, to always have backups.

2367
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:09,000
Speaker 1: Always have back channels, because there were so many instances

2368
02:23:09,240 --> 02:23:15,240
Speaker 1: of of you know, moderator lead or UAW sanctions chats

2369
02:23:15,640 --> 02:23:20,080
Speaker 1: that did not permit discussion. And yeah, since you know

2370
02:23:20,400 --> 02:23:24,800
Speaker 1: we were talking about that ship in our in our

2371
02:23:24,840 --> 02:23:28,240
Speaker 1: back channels. Yeah, I think I think that's that's good advice.

2372
02:23:28,760 --> 02:23:30,600
Speaker 1: Kenn has just joined us, and I'm just going to

2373
02:23:30,640 --> 02:23:32,800
Speaker 1: allow them to introduce themselves before we go forward with

2374
02:23:32,879 --> 02:23:38,440
Speaker 1: discussing these organizing tactics. Go ahead, Ken Hi, I'm Ken.

2375
02:23:38,920 --> 02:23:42,920
Speaker 1: I am a graduate student in the literature department. UM.

2376
02:23:43,000 --> 02:23:45,720
Speaker 1: So I've been organizing with Dollar Lunch Club from day

2377
02:23:47,200 --> 02:23:52,360
Speaker 1: like week zero before the strike started with um with

2378
02:23:52,640 --> 02:23:58,600
Speaker 1: anna and yeah, and well that was from day one,

2379
02:23:59,080 --> 02:24:02,360
Speaker 1: that's true. I wanted to say, um, with respect to

2380
02:24:02,440 --> 02:24:08,200
Speaker 1: the question about like, uh just on my phone fatigue. UM,

2381
02:24:08,440 --> 02:24:15,000
Speaker 1: I think a large like part of like why we

2382
02:24:15,400 --> 02:24:18,600
Speaker 1: are now like this group of us here is Dollar

2383
02:24:18,760 --> 02:24:22,320
Speaker 1: Lunch Club is because we were just like we all

2384
02:24:22,400 --> 02:24:24,760
Speaker 1: have on my phone fatigue and we want to do

2385
02:24:24,959 --> 02:24:31,720
Speaker 1: something actually like community building and like meaningful, uh, for

2386
02:24:32,200 --> 02:24:37,480
Speaker 1: like ourselves and other grad students. UM. And yeah, getting

2387
02:24:37,520 --> 02:24:40,680
Speaker 1: off the phone and making soup together has been very

2388
02:24:41,000 --> 02:24:45,720
Speaker 1: h very good. For that. Yeah, Ray, do you want

2389
02:24:45,720 --> 02:24:50,040
Speaker 1: to add to that. Yeah, I I was going to

2390
02:24:50,120 --> 02:24:54,880
Speaker 1: say the same, like, because I think I think phone

2391
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:57,680
Speaker 1: chats are vital, right, Like I'm thinking about how important

2392
02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:01,440
Speaker 1: Facebook messenger chats were to the teacher strike a couple

2393
02:25:01,560 --> 02:25:04,040
Speaker 1: of years ago, So those were like really important, and

2394
02:25:04,160 --> 02:25:06,880
Speaker 1: they were really important in our strike as well. But

2395
02:25:07,000 --> 02:25:10,720
Speaker 1: I think because of the limitations of like as Matt mentioned,

2396
02:25:11,879 --> 02:25:14,600
Speaker 1: someone can just unilaterally say none of you can reply

2397
02:25:14,760 --> 02:25:19,000
Speaker 1: only I can post updates, people can like erase their messages,

2398
02:25:19,080 --> 02:25:21,960
Speaker 1: they can nuke the entire chat, disable it. All of that.

2399
02:25:22,440 --> 02:25:24,760
Speaker 1: Because of that, it really tells you like, oh, you

2400
02:25:24,920 --> 02:25:28,920
Speaker 1: can't just rely on online organizing a lot of times

2401
02:25:29,000 --> 02:25:32,080
Speaker 1: You're going to have to do in person organizing, which, again,

2402
02:25:32,280 --> 02:25:36,000
Speaker 1: as Alex said, really well, part of that is just

2403
02:25:36,160 --> 02:25:40,320
Speaker 1: community building. Like to me, what Dollar Lunch Club is,

2404
02:25:40,959 --> 02:25:44,240
Speaker 1: it's like a continuation of that community building so that

2405
02:25:44,360 --> 02:25:48,040
Speaker 1: we maintain contacts, so that we maintain having conversations with

2406
02:25:48,200 --> 02:25:52,080
Speaker 1: people that generally we wouldn't really be meeting every day,

2407
02:25:52,200 --> 02:25:56,080
Speaker 1: or maybe wouldn't even be meeting like like once a quarter,

2408
02:25:56,320 --> 02:25:58,480
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. You know, there's people that I

2409
02:25:58,640 --> 02:26:01,360
Speaker 1: talked to in grips that I never would have talked

2410
02:26:01,400 --> 02:26:03,840
Speaker 1: to if we weren't doing some of these lunches together

2411
02:26:03,920 --> 02:26:07,040
Speaker 1: and finding out their situations. So they're in a kind

2412
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:09,400
Speaker 1: of tough situation that I think would be good to

2413
02:26:09,440 --> 02:26:14,160
Speaker 1: talk about in soon. But I guess what I would

2414
02:26:14,160 --> 02:26:16,360
Speaker 1: say as advice for other people who are trying to

2415
02:26:16,440 --> 02:26:23,320
Speaker 1: unionize their workplace is to get people kind of engaged.

2416
02:26:23,680 --> 02:26:26,400
Speaker 1: You have to start with some of that community building,

2417
02:26:26,720 --> 02:26:29,000
Speaker 1: and I think food is one of those really good

2418
02:26:29,720 --> 02:26:32,680
Speaker 1: places to start community building. It could be also other

2419
02:26:32,800 --> 02:26:35,760
Speaker 1: types of activities. So all throughout the strike, there was

2420
02:26:35,879 --> 02:26:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, times when people would be like, hey, let's

2421
02:26:38,240 --> 02:26:41,680
Speaker 1: do yoga by the beach, you know, or let's do

2422
02:26:41,840 --> 02:26:44,800
Speaker 1: yoga on this picket, or let's do a dance on

2423
02:26:44,920 --> 02:26:46,920
Speaker 1: this picket, or let's do like a fashion show on

2424
02:26:46,959 --> 02:26:49,720
Speaker 1: this picket. Those are all like fun activities that I

2425
02:26:49,840 --> 02:26:53,480
Speaker 1: think people who do not want to be at their

2426
02:26:53,720 --> 02:26:56,440
Speaker 1: workplace all the time, people who just want to catch

2427
02:26:56,480 --> 02:27:01,840
Speaker 1: a break. You can engage those like disengaged people that

2428
02:27:01,920 --> 02:27:05,880
Speaker 1: are just not paying attention to politics by offering activities

2429
02:27:06,480 --> 02:27:09,640
Speaker 1: that are important for community building and forgetting to meet

2430
02:27:09,720 --> 02:27:11,920
Speaker 1: people that you wouldn't have talked to before. So I

2431
02:27:11,959 --> 02:27:15,480
Speaker 1: think that's kind of like vital to a union functioning

2432
02:27:15,800 --> 02:27:18,880
Speaker 1: is building all of these contacts. And then when you

2433
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:21,200
Speaker 1: have talked to someone several times, when you have had

2434
02:27:21,280 --> 02:27:23,200
Speaker 1: lunch with them several times, then you can really get

2435
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:25,480
Speaker 1: into the nitty gritty of like, well, how do you

2436
02:27:25,640 --> 02:27:29,400
Speaker 1: feel about the contract, how do you feel about you know, unionizing,

2437
02:27:29,480 --> 02:27:32,400
Speaker 1: how do you feel about so and so. I think

2438
02:27:32,560 --> 02:27:35,440
Speaker 1: that kind of community building is something that like our

2439
02:27:36,840 --> 02:27:39,600
Speaker 1: the UAW two eight sixty five at least, really just

2440
02:27:39,840 --> 02:27:46,440
Speaker 1: like neglected. So my example here is on one of

2441
02:27:46,520 --> 02:27:48,560
Speaker 1: the pickets, not the picket that I was on, but

2442
02:27:48,720 --> 02:27:51,920
Speaker 1: on one of the pickets. I later talked to a

2443
02:27:52,040 --> 02:27:54,640
Speaker 1: guy who was saying like, oh yeah, our picket is

2444
02:27:54,720 --> 02:27:58,800
Speaker 1: really militant. We're supposed to be like shouting at people

2445
02:28:00,120 --> 02:28:03,640
Speaker 1: the street the entire time. And you know, our picket leader,

2446
02:28:05,000 --> 02:28:08,520
Speaker 1: she's like going all out and she you know, has

2447
02:28:08,600 --> 02:28:10,600
Speaker 1: lost her voice because of that and all of that.

2448
02:28:10,920 --> 02:28:12,840
Speaker 1: And I was thinking, like, okay, but what do you

2449
02:28:14,040 --> 02:28:17,200
Speaker 1: don't you want to arrest? You know, like what like

2450
02:28:17,640 --> 02:28:20,400
Speaker 1: do you do anything for fun to keep people going

2451
02:28:20,520 --> 02:28:23,440
Speaker 1: to the picket Because his picket had dropped in numbers

2452
02:28:23,480 --> 02:28:26,040
Speaker 1: so much that they had to combine numbers with another

2453
02:28:26,120 --> 02:28:28,440
Speaker 1: picket right, And to me that was like you are

2454
02:28:28,560 --> 02:28:31,760
Speaker 1: making this really really stressful for people. That's not to

2455
02:28:31,840 --> 02:28:36,000
Speaker 1: say that you know, like preventing people from parking there

2456
02:28:36,480 --> 02:28:39,440
Speaker 1: isn't important. It is, but most people can only do

2457
02:28:39,560 --> 02:28:41,360
Speaker 1: that for a couple of days and then they're like

2458
02:28:41,640 --> 02:28:44,080
Speaker 1: stressed out and they do not want to contribute to

2459
02:28:44,240 --> 02:28:47,920
Speaker 1: that strike situation anymore. They just want to sit at

2460
02:28:47,959 --> 02:28:49,840
Speaker 1: home and not do work right, which is kind of

2461
02:28:49,879 --> 02:28:53,320
Speaker 1: what a strike can be. But to keep people on

2462
02:28:53,440 --> 02:28:55,920
Speaker 1: the picket lines and to keep in contact with them

2463
02:28:56,000 --> 02:28:58,840
Speaker 1: because they're coming on campus or you know, at the

2464
02:28:58,920 --> 02:29:02,879
Speaker 1: workplace every day, you have to make it like pleasant

2465
02:29:02,959 --> 02:29:05,120
Speaker 1: to be there. And so that that was one of

2466
02:29:05,160 --> 02:29:06,879
Speaker 1: the things that I learned from one of those pickets,

2467
02:29:06,920 --> 02:29:10,280
Speaker 1: where like you aren't doing any community building, Like your

2468
02:29:10,360 --> 02:29:13,039
Speaker 1: community building is a single basketball hoop that you brought

2469
02:29:13,120 --> 02:29:16,080
Speaker 1: and you put on the parking lot, and like that's

2470
02:29:16,200 --> 02:29:18,960
Speaker 1: not enough. You have to do like food, you have

2471
02:29:19,120 --> 02:29:20,760
Speaker 1: to do some kind of rest, you have to do

2472
02:29:20,879 --> 02:29:22,959
Speaker 1: some kind of art. So in one of the other

2473
02:29:23,080 --> 02:29:27,879
Speaker 1: pickets that I participated in, there was like chalking everywhere

2474
02:29:27,959 --> 02:29:30,480
Speaker 1: we were playing we were making like you know, like

2475
02:29:30,640 --> 02:29:33,320
Speaker 1: a monopoly board, but like you would just be losing

2476
02:29:33,360 --> 02:29:36,360
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars every time you passed a step and

2477
02:29:36,480 --> 02:29:39,400
Speaker 1: things like that. Right, you have to let people express

2478
02:29:39,480 --> 02:29:41,800
Speaker 1: themselves in this way for them to keep coming back

2479
02:29:41,879 --> 02:29:44,760
Speaker 1: and back and being engaged, for you to be able

2480
02:29:44,800 --> 02:29:47,240
Speaker 1: to facilitate conversations as to ask like, hey, what do

2481
02:29:47,320 --> 02:29:49,280
Speaker 1: you think about the contract? Hey, what do you want

2482
02:29:49,280 --> 02:29:53,600
Speaker 1: to do? I think community building is the most important thing,

2483
02:29:53,680 --> 02:29:56,080
Speaker 1: and that can be online, but it also should have

2484
02:29:56,200 --> 02:29:58,720
Speaker 1: an in person component to it. Yeah, I think that's

2485
02:29:58,760 --> 02:30:04,359
Speaker 1: pretty well said. Fun is a way like like intentionally

2486
02:30:04,560 --> 02:30:08,320
Speaker 1: making time and space and energy for having fun as

2487
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:11,120
Speaker 1: a community and just like doing things that are just

2488
02:30:11,320 --> 02:30:14,600
Speaker 1: like like this is because all of us need to

2489
02:30:14,720 --> 02:30:17,480
Speaker 1: eat and all of us need to break. Like that

2490
02:30:17,720 --> 02:30:21,880
Speaker 1: is a way to like keep up your to like

2491
02:30:22,040 --> 02:30:27,039
Speaker 1: keep up your stamina and like help people keep up

2492
02:30:27,080 --> 02:30:31,400
Speaker 1: your stamina for something taxing like a strike, and also

2493
02:30:31,640 --> 02:30:35,280
Speaker 1: like to help people find the kind of meaning that

2494
02:30:35,680 --> 02:30:39,200
Speaker 1: helps them like want to come back and continue devoting

2495
02:30:39,360 --> 02:30:46,040
Speaker 1: energy to the thing. And yeah that I just wanted

2496
02:30:46,080 --> 02:30:50,560
Speaker 1: to echo that like that, like it was only through

2497
02:30:51,160 --> 02:30:55,000
Speaker 1: like finding this group that I was able to like

2498
02:30:56,280 --> 02:31:01,080
Speaker 1: find people of similar minds on It was not in

2499
02:31:01,200 --> 02:31:06,240
Speaker 1: the like UAW department organizing committee meetings that I could

2500
02:31:06,320 --> 02:31:09,760
Speaker 1: find like minds on this our picket, I don't think

2501
02:31:09,879 --> 02:31:13,640
Speaker 1: ever like like died off like other pickets did, and

2502
02:31:14,520 --> 02:31:16,920
Speaker 1: our picket I'm referring to, like most of the other

2503
02:31:17,160 --> 02:31:20,080
Speaker 1: people here, we were together on one picket. Part of

2504
02:31:20,160 --> 02:31:23,800
Speaker 1: that is because we were allowing like space for so

2505
02:31:23,920 --> 02:31:28,440
Speaker 1: many different activities to do. Like there is one person

2506
02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:31,200
Speaker 1: in my department who kept coming despite my department being

2507
02:31:31,280 --> 02:31:35,280
Speaker 1: like really politically disengaged, because we had like a button

2508
02:31:35,360 --> 02:31:37,560
Speaker 1: maker and we could make buttons, and he was like, Hey,

2509
02:31:37,760 --> 02:31:40,760
Speaker 1: this is fun. I'm just gonna like continue drawing buttons

2510
02:31:40,800 --> 02:31:42,960
Speaker 1: for people. I like doing that. And it was like,

2511
02:31:44,640 --> 02:31:46,720
Speaker 1: go for it, you know, like as long as you're here,

2512
02:31:46,760 --> 02:31:48,920
Speaker 1: as long as we can communicate with you and like

2513
02:31:50,720 --> 02:31:53,320
Speaker 1: hear your opinions and see what you want to out

2514
02:31:53,360 --> 02:31:55,880
Speaker 1: of the contract, and you keep on coming, Like we

2515
02:31:56,080 --> 02:31:58,800
Speaker 1: love that. You know, Like if you allow space for

2516
02:31:58,920 --> 02:32:00,960
Speaker 1: different people to do different things, if there's like a

2517
02:32:01,040 --> 02:32:03,800
Speaker 1: diversity of tactics, I think you're going to get people

2518
02:32:03,879 --> 02:32:06,120
Speaker 1: a lot more engaged than if you have this like

2519
02:32:06,760 --> 02:32:09,920
Speaker 1: top down, like, no, we should only be preventing people

2520
02:32:10,000 --> 02:32:12,760
Speaker 1: from parking here, we should only be shouting at students

2521
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:15,000
Speaker 1: to not go to class like they has to be

2522
02:32:15,080 --> 02:32:18,000
Speaker 1: a diversity of tactics. That will be a good time

2523
02:32:18,000 --> 02:32:19,920
Speaker 1: I think for us to explain exactly what dollar lunch

2524
02:32:19,959 --> 02:32:22,960
Speaker 1: club is and what it does. So does someone want

2525
02:32:23,000 --> 02:32:25,920
Speaker 1: to take take on explaining that a dollar and lunch

2526
02:32:25,959 --> 02:32:29,320
Speaker 1: club is very much like I would say, ground up

2527
02:32:29,720 --> 02:32:35,480
Speaker 1: organizing tactics. I guess it's it's everything is sort of

2528
02:32:35,520 --> 02:32:39,480
Speaker 1: collectively decided in a weekly meeting, and in the past

2529
02:32:39,600 --> 02:32:43,720
Speaker 1: quarter it's it's been lunch. It's we've been providing lunch

2530
02:32:44,040 --> 02:32:50,320
Speaker 1: for UM. It's targeted at grad students, but really welcoming

2531
02:32:50,400 --> 02:32:56,200
Speaker 1: all of all community members regardless of like affiliation with UCSD,

2532
02:32:56,400 --> 02:32:59,720
Speaker 1: although it's mostly UCSD students, been grad students that have

2533
02:32:59,800 --> 02:33:03,920
Speaker 1: been attending. But um, we've been doing lunch for a

2534
02:33:04,040 --> 02:33:08,880
Speaker 1: dollar two to three times a week in different places

2535
02:33:09,360 --> 02:33:13,720
Speaker 1: on the UCSD campus, sort of like a Some of

2536
02:33:13,800 --> 02:33:16,600
Speaker 1: it is just lunches. Of it is sort of like

2537
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:21,720
Speaker 1: ad hoc catering I would say, of different kinds of

2538
02:33:23,000 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 1: organizing efforts, or like interdepartmental lunches, So it's not it's

2539
02:33:31,400 --> 02:33:35,640
Speaker 1: not totally fixed in terms of location or affiliation, and

2540
02:33:36,240 --> 02:33:43,440
Speaker 1: all of the members are doing this totally voluntarily, and

2541
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:47,200
Speaker 1: the one dollar that we collect for the lunches, or

2542
02:33:47,520 --> 02:33:52,080
Speaker 1: or greater donations if community members want UM go straight

2543
02:33:52,120 --> 02:33:57,080
Speaker 1: into UM just sustaining the lunch project and groceries and

2544
02:33:58,160 --> 02:34:01,200
Speaker 1: but mostly Yeah, there's been a lot of efforts to

2545
02:34:01,320 --> 02:34:05,680
Speaker 1: sort of diversify and make the make our lunches as

2546
02:34:05,760 --> 02:34:12,400
Speaker 1: sustainable cost wise as possible. So this last quarter, folks

2547
02:34:12,480 --> 02:34:16,520
Speaker 1: have been working with the Food Recovery Network to sort

2548
02:34:16,560 --> 02:34:21,720
Speaker 1: of supply some of the ingredients. It is very much

2549
02:34:22,200 --> 02:34:26,480
Speaker 1: donate what you want. As Ken said, we generally suggested

2550
02:34:26,560 --> 02:34:30,480
Speaker 1: dollar donation, but it's I think one of our signs

2551
02:34:30,560 --> 02:34:34,360
Speaker 1: says eat first, donate maybe, So it is very much

2552
02:34:34,400 --> 02:34:36,800
Speaker 1: pay what you want, pay what you can. Yeah, And

2553
02:34:36,959 --> 02:34:41,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to say, and like Matt was most directly

2554
02:34:41,959 --> 02:34:44,920
Speaker 1: involved in this transition, but what it grew out of

2555
02:34:45,280 --> 02:34:52,240
Speaker 1: was the fact that like the Humanity's Picket started doing

2556
02:34:52,480 --> 02:34:59,840
Speaker 1: daily lunches together and after the strike ended because of

2557
02:35:00,120 --> 02:35:06,080
Speaker 1: ratification vote UM, Uh, Matt and UH some other folks

2558
02:35:06,400 --> 02:35:11,160
Speaker 1: who had been doing those lunches were just like we

2559
02:35:11,280 --> 02:35:15,760
Speaker 1: should keep doing this. This feels good and right. And um,

2560
02:35:16,840 --> 02:35:21,200
Speaker 1: more of people like me jumped on afterwards. Um, and

2561
02:35:21,879 --> 02:35:25,440
Speaker 1: we all have been making it into this mutual leid

2562
02:35:25,600 --> 02:35:30,920
Speaker 1: thing for like we need to like you know, humanize

2563
02:35:30,920 --> 02:35:34,320
Speaker 1: ourselves to each other and like you know, shore up

2564
02:35:34,400 --> 02:35:38,400
Speaker 1: the like community bonds that we noticed we're missing. Um,

2565
02:35:38,760 --> 02:35:41,480
Speaker 1: so that way, maybe in the future, like people will

2566
02:35:42,680 --> 02:35:46,080
Speaker 1: care a little more about like people that maybe they

2567
02:35:48,160 --> 02:35:51,720
Speaker 1: couldn't care less about this time around. I want to

2568
02:35:51,840 --> 02:35:54,280
Speaker 1: just jump in and give credit where credit is due.

2569
02:35:54,440 --> 02:36:00,640
Speaker 1: Or An and Anna actually were the original eights of

2570
02:36:00,879 --> 02:36:05,080
Speaker 1: the strike food and I jumped on in day one

2571
02:36:05,120 --> 02:36:08,160
Speaker 1: because I knew for I used a professional cook for

2572
02:36:08,200 --> 02:36:10,760
Speaker 1: a while, I'm really in the food and I wanted

2573
02:36:11,360 --> 02:36:15,200
Speaker 1: to do that. And so I guess you could say

2574
02:36:15,200 --> 02:36:18,080
Speaker 1: it was the three of us, and then it expanded

2575
02:36:18,160 --> 02:36:21,040
Speaker 1: her fair fair, I don't I don't have my origin

2576
02:36:21,200 --> 02:36:24,120
Speaker 1: story nailed down. Yeah, you got to get it on, Pat.

2577
02:36:24,160 --> 02:36:27,960
Speaker 1: It's it's something I missed greatly from like leftist organizing

2578
02:36:28,000 --> 02:36:31,600
Speaker 1: in certainly in like southern Europe, which is you know

2579
02:36:31,640 --> 02:36:33,240
Speaker 1: where I spent a lot of my life, Like you're

2580
02:36:33,240 --> 02:36:36,600
Speaker 1: always well fed at anything where you're in Spain or

2581
02:36:36,640 --> 02:36:41,040
Speaker 1: Italy or even in France and like American labor organizing

2582
02:36:41,080 --> 02:36:44,040
Speaker 1: black set, so it's cool to see you guys doing it. Yeah.

2583
02:36:44,320 --> 02:36:47,240
Speaker 1: Kind of to summarize what Alex was saying. For me,

2584
02:36:47,560 --> 02:36:51,400
Speaker 1: the goal is very much too from one is food justice.

2585
02:36:51,760 --> 02:36:55,520
Speaker 1: Um so food for everyone. I think everyone should have it.

2586
02:36:55,720 --> 02:36:58,640
Speaker 1: It's great to hear that that's kind of a building

2587
02:36:58,800 --> 02:37:01,199
Speaker 1: thing in Europe. I didn't know that, but it sounds

2588
02:37:01,360 --> 02:37:04,840
Speaker 1: pretty on brand. Disappointingly, that is not the case here.

2589
02:37:04,879 --> 02:37:09,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, everyone needs food, So that's that's one goal.

2590
02:37:09,280 --> 02:37:11,920
Speaker 1: And then for me, the other goal is to get

2591
02:37:11,959 --> 02:37:16,120
Speaker 1: people talking across departments. So I think a big issue

2592
02:37:16,200 --> 02:37:20,560
Speaker 1: in the strike was that some departments were paid much

2593
02:37:20,640 --> 02:37:24,640
Speaker 1: more than others, and I think for that reason, the

2594
02:37:24,760 --> 02:37:27,800
Speaker 1: ones who were paid more were often less radical because

2595
02:37:27,879 --> 02:37:31,000
Speaker 1: they were kind of already slightly more comfortable. Of course,

2596
02:37:31,080 --> 02:37:33,160
Speaker 1: no one has paid a huge amount as a grad student,

2597
02:37:33,320 --> 02:37:38,720
Speaker 1: but they had. I guess you can say more to lose,

2598
02:37:39,480 --> 02:37:45,680
Speaker 1: and maybe we're less pressed to urgently start earning more.

2599
02:37:46,360 --> 02:37:50,360
Speaker 1: And of course accessibility needs and there are many other considerations. Basically,

2600
02:37:50,600 --> 02:37:54,600
Speaker 1: if you're already somewhat comfortable with your living situation, you're

2601
02:37:54,920 --> 02:37:59,039
Speaker 1: less likely to be super radical, and so I think

2602
02:37:59,360 --> 02:38:03,720
Speaker 1: just not even being in the same spheres together, people

2603
02:38:03,879 --> 02:38:07,920
Speaker 1: in those more comfortable departments kind of did not really

2604
02:38:08,200 --> 02:38:10,840
Speaker 1: have any reason to interact with people in the less

2605
02:38:10,879 --> 02:38:14,480
Speaker 1: comfortable departments, and they just didn't see them at all.

2606
02:38:14,680 --> 02:38:18,400
Speaker 1: And so, just like what Alex is saying, that food

2607
02:38:18,520 --> 02:38:20,760
Speaker 1: is a way to humanize us all to each other.

2608
02:38:21,400 --> 02:38:24,240
Speaker 1: It's very hard to have everyone in the same room

2609
02:38:24,320 --> 02:38:28,440
Speaker 1: together without you know, seeing and talking to each other.

2610
02:38:29,440 --> 02:38:32,320
Speaker 1: So food was away for us to do that, and

2611
02:38:32,440 --> 02:38:35,800
Speaker 1: I thought that that was a really important, continued, slow

2612
02:38:35,920 --> 02:38:39,920
Speaker 1: moving goal. So weekly lunches are away for us to

2613
02:38:40,080 --> 02:38:43,440
Speaker 1: invite people from across the campus and say, hey, there's

2614
02:38:43,480 --> 02:38:46,360
Speaker 1: free food here and it's also really good, so you

2615
02:38:46,400 --> 02:38:48,840
Speaker 1: should come by and eat them. And while you're here,

2616
02:38:49,160 --> 02:38:52,240
Speaker 1: talk to some students from the Humanities department and recognize

2617
02:38:52,320 --> 02:38:54,400
Speaker 1: that they have real needs and they are people too,

2618
02:38:54,879 --> 02:38:57,520
Speaker 1: And maybe next time you vote you should keep their

2619
02:38:58,360 --> 02:39:02,360
Speaker 1: thoughts in mind, UM and vote a little bit less

2620
02:39:02,560 --> 02:39:06,400
Speaker 1: selfishly if you can. UM. So that that's what it

2621
02:39:06,640 --> 02:39:10,920
Speaker 1: is for me. I think getting a little deeper and

2622
02:39:11,000 --> 02:39:13,800
Speaker 1: dig a little deeper into the origin of like how

2623
02:39:13,879 --> 02:39:18,760
Speaker 1: this all started. My department has been like very suspicious,

2624
02:39:18,879 --> 02:39:23,400
Speaker 1: I guess of the the UAW previous efforts for fair

2625
02:39:23,640 --> 02:39:27,199
Speaker 1: for fair reasons, you know, um, And so in terms

2626
02:39:27,240 --> 02:39:32,080
Speaker 1: of getting folks out to strike and then also to

2627
02:39:32,240 --> 02:39:34,440
Speaker 1: be on the picket line, it was definitely a struggle,

2628
02:39:34,800 --> 02:39:38,400
Speaker 1: not just not really so much in that folks didn't

2629
02:39:38,440 --> 02:39:44,560
Speaker 1: believe in the cause, but they were like pretty aware that, um,

2630
02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:50,760
Speaker 1: you know, as as literature students, you're not the university

2631
02:39:51,120 --> 02:39:56,760
Speaker 1: or the union's priority. Um, you know, because humanity's you

2632
02:39:56,840 --> 02:40:02,480
Speaker 1: know that, you know that trend, right, And so there

2633
02:40:02,600 --> 02:40:07,920
Speaker 1: was also a lot of the whole strike pay systems

2634
02:40:08,080 --> 02:40:10,200
Speaker 1: scared a lot of folks, and it was like I

2635
02:40:10,360 --> 02:40:16,520
Speaker 1: have to switch from this, you know, like different kind

2636
02:40:16,560 --> 02:40:21,480
Speaker 1: of labor, which is not really about me physically being

2637
02:40:21,560 --> 02:40:24,600
Speaker 1: in a place for twenty hours a week, into this

2638
02:40:24,840 --> 02:40:28,119
Speaker 1: labor that is like me walking around for twenty hours

2639
02:40:28,160 --> 02:40:30,760
Speaker 1: a week in order to make sure that I am

2640
02:40:30,840 --> 02:40:35,200
Speaker 1: not going to go broke. And basically there was not

2641
02:40:35,400 --> 02:40:40,560
Speaker 1: a funded There wasn't funded snacks or lunch by the UAW.

2642
02:40:41,000 --> 02:40:45,920
Speaker 1: And I had actually Matt and I or yeah, Matt

2643
02:40:45,959 --> 02:40:48,600
Speaker 1: and I had asked at an early meeting. I guess

2644
02:40:48,640 --> 02:40:52,400
Speaker 1: about getting a sort of like seed fund of like

2645
02:40:52,520 --> 02:40:55,440
Speaker 1: maybe fifty dollars to just get us rolling on the lunch,

2646
02:40:56,040 --> 02:40:59,880
Speaker 1: and the UAW staff was like, Nope, lunch is just

2647
02:41:00,160 --> 02:41:05,280
Speaker 1: not included in our budget. Sorry about that, Like, if

2648
02:41:05,320 --> 02:41:07,119
Speaker 1: you want to do that, you'll have to figure out

2649
02:41:07,160 --> 02:41:11,240
Speaker 1: how to get this organizing going on your own. And

2650
02:41:11,560 --> 02:41:15,160
Speaker 1: so part of doing the fundraising from the beginning was

2651
02:41:15,480 --> 02:41:22,000
Speaker 1: about that, and actually the strike food funds that I

2652
02:41:22,120 --> 02:41:25,560
Speaker 1: also want to throw some credit to Anna also as

2653
02:41:25,680 --> 02:41:29,320
Speaker 1: like one of the people that was like most focused

2654
02:41:29,480 --> 02:41:36,119
Speaker 1: on building sort of the fundraising materials and actively fundraising

2655
02:41:36,240 --> 02:41:39,960
Speaker 1: in different places and making sure that then ultimately in

2656
02:41:40,120 --> 02:41:43,360
Speaker 1: terms of being able to supply food lunch funds to

2657
02:41:43,520 --> 02:41:46,800
Speaker 1: other pickets. That was something that we started doing about

2658
02:41:46,879 --> 02:41:50,560
Speaker 1: midway through the strike because we had had some fundraising

2659
02:41:50,600 --> 02:41:54,560
Speaker 1: success and it was kind of crazy because it was

2660
02:41:54,720 --> 02:41:58,080
Speaker 1: I remember just like the last day of the strike itself,

2661
02:41:58,760 --> 02:42:01,680
Speaker 1: just being at another pick get where you know that

2662
02:42:01,840 --> 02:42:06,760
Speaker 1: had sort of developed more of its own like lunch culture,

2663
02:42:07,959 --> 02:42:12,560
Speaker 1: like using some of that like that fundraised cash and

2664
02:42:12,720 --> 02:42:17,480
Speaker 1: like also using efforts from other folks, but um, just

2665
02:42:17,720 --> 02:42:20,400
Speaker 1: the picket being like somebody at the picket being like

2666
02:42:21,000 --> 02:42:23,960
Speaker 1: Damn they got to get on that lunch thing next time.

2667
02:42:24,080 --> 02:42:32,600
Speaker 1: This was key And I was just like no, yeah, um,

2668
02:42:32,920 --> 02:42:35,920
Speaker 1: but yeah, like exactly the lunch is key, Like how

2669
02:42:36,040 --> 02:42:38,640
Speaker 1: you how are you going to expect to have people

2670
02:42:39,240 --> 02:42:45,520
Speaker 1: building community, you know, and you know the cheapest, the

2671
02:42:46,160 --> 02:42:49,480
Speaker 1: cheapest like lunch you can. I mean outside of basically

2672
02:42:49,720 --> 02:42:52,320
Speaker 1: during the strike, people were eating all of the food

2673
02:42:52,560 --> 02:42:56,240
Speaker 1: out of them the food co Op, which is another

2674
02:42:56,360 --> 02:43:00,560
Speaker 1: community group that supplies food on campus. Um, but outside

2675
02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:02,680
Speaker 1: of that, pretty much there is not a meal to

2676
02:43:02,800 --> 02:43:06,359
Speaker 1: be had on campus for less than like thirteen dollars

2677
02:43:06,480 --> 02:43:12,800
Speaker 1: without packs. So yeah, that's that's about that, Alex. Can

2678
02:43:12,879 --> 02:43:16,240
Speaker 1: I add something like before you just like a tiny thing?

2679
02:43:16,560 --> 02:43:19,240
Speaker 1: Based on Ken's point, I was going to say, at

2680
02:43:19,320 --> 02:43:21,560
Speaker 1: one point, I think it was week two or week

2681
02:43:21,640 --> 02:43:23,720
Speaker 1: three of the strike, we were making so much food.

2682
02:43:23,760 --> 02:43:26,360
Speaker 1: We were feeding like probably one hundred people, and then

2683
02:43:26,440 --> 02:43:29,000
Speaker 1: we would have leftovers and we would literally walk the

2684
02:43:29,120 --> 02:43:33,560
Speaker 1: leftovers or to the other pickets, and it surprised me

2685
02:43:33,720 --> 02:43:36,160
Speaker 1: so much that the other picket would just be eating

2686
02:43:36,280 --> 02:43:40,600
Speaker 1: like chips and donuts, and here I am like dropping

2687
02:43:40,720 --> 02:43:45,160
Speaker 1: off like cooked you know, like being burritos or like

2688
02:43:45,400 --> 02:43:49,000
Speaker 1: salads or things like that, like actual food for them.

2689
02:43:49,360 --> 02:43:52,240
Speaker 1: So like, to me, this was like not even a

2690
02:43:52,320 --> 02:43:55,040
Speaker 1: failure on the uaw's part. It was like very intentional

2691
02:43:55,160 --> 02:43:58,640
Speaker 1: of like, well you're kind of on your own, you know,

2692
02:43:58,840 --> 02:44:01,880
Speaker 1: So that's like the power of food to me is like,

2693
02:44:02,760 --> 02:44:07,040
Speaker 1: well fed people are going to keep coming back, you know,

2694
02:44:07,200 --> 02:44:10,120
Speaker 1: people that don't have to spend like a bunch of

2695
02:44:10,200 --> 02:44:13,680
Speaker 1: money on getting like donuts. I don't I don't think

2696
02:44:13,720 --> 02:44:16,480
Speaker 1: they're going to keep coming back, you know. Yeah. What

2697
02:44:16,840 --> 02:44:20,879
Speaker 1: Ken was saying earlier about props to Anna, nobody moves

2698
02:44:21,040 --> 02:44:24,080
Speaker 1: a second hand insta pot in San Diego County without

2699
02:44:24,160 --> 02:44:27,920
Speaker 1: Anna knowing about it is one of our group jokes.

2700
02:44:30,040 --> 02:44:36,280
Speaker 1: Yeah I love you, yeah, um, but yeah, I wanted

2701
02:44:36,320 --> 02:44:42,720
Speaker 1: to offer some contrast to like, uh, how uh like

2702
02:44:43,000 --> 02:44:48,440
Speaker 1: the other folks's departments have been, um, like have been

2703
02:44:48,720 --> 02:44:52,360
Speaker 1: responsive to things and like what the attitudes are. Um.

2704
02:44:52,600 --> 02:44:56,880
Speaker 1: So I am in the computer science department. Uh, we

2705
02:44:57,040 --> 02:45:02,400
Speaker 1: have plenty of money comparatively, um and we are I

2706
02:45:02,520 --> 02:45:06,280
Speaker 1: think steps with the previous steps were like steps eight

2707
02:45:06,320 --> 02:45:09,720
Speaker 1: and nine, um, and we organize a lot with like

2708
02:45:09,879 --> 02:45:14,560
Speaker 1: the Electrical engineering department, which is like step like also

2709
02:45:14,720 --> 02:45:18,200
Speaker 1: like steps seven to eight nine, um. And I remember

2710
02:45:18,400 --> 02:45:22,800
Speaker 1: very vividly this town hall we had before the ratification

2711
02:45:22,920 --> 02:45:27,880
Speaker 1: vote got announced, where like, uh, there was some temperature

2712
02:45:28,000 --> 02:45:31,720
Speaker 1: checking about like how does everybody feel about this, um,

2713
02:45:32,240 --> 02:45:35,280
Speaker 1: like if we if we put this up for a vote, um,

2714
02:45:35,360 --> 02:45:39,080
Speaker 1: and everybody was just like, uh, you know, it looks

2715
02:45:39,080 --> 02:45:41,840
Speaker 1: all right to me. I think, I, uh, this like

2716
02:45:43,480 --> 02:45:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, not not incredible, but like I'd be able

2717
02:45:46,360 --> 02:45:50,320
Speaker 1: to handle this. And then I come in and get

2718
02:45:50,400 --> 02:45:55,160
Speaker 1: my turn and go like, guys, Um, everything I'm hearing

2719
02:45:55,280 --> 02:45:59,480
Speaker 1: from the other side of campus is them panicking and

2720
02:45:59,760 --> 02:46:03,840
Speaker 1: very upsets. Um. I don't think we should do this

2721
02:46:04,080 --> 02:46:07,160
Speaker 1: if the rest of the campus is panicking and upsets

2722
02:46:07,959 --> 02:46:14,120
Speaker 1: And I was just like not heard and kind of

2723
02:46:14,200 --> 02:46:23,320
Speaker 1: ignored U. So yeah, UM. A lot of the community

2724
02:46:23,440 --> 02:46:27,840
Speaker 1: building stuff, like when we talk about like trying to

2725
02:46:28,040 --> 02:46:34,680
Speaker 1: get people to like humanize like other people that they

2726
02:46:34,760 --> 02:46:39,240
Speaker 1: didn't seem to care about. UM, we're talking about like

2727
02:46:41,240 --> 02:46:45,520
Speaker 1: the departments that didn't need as much help like some

2728
02:46:45,760 --> 02:46:51,760
Speaker 1: of mine. And like the strike for me personally was

2729
02:46:52,160 --> 02:46:58,120
Speaker 1: like it definitely transformed a lot of like my friendships

2730
02:47:00,080 --> 02:47:07,320
Speaker 1: or that reason, because like I don't know how to

2731
02:47:07,560 --> 02:47:12,720
Speaker 1: be friends with people that are like I see and

2732
02:47:13,000 --> 02:47:16,680
Speaker 1: hear that the people that you're talking to, I see

2733
02:47:16,720 --> 02:47:19,720
Speaker 1: and hear that you're talking to people who are absolutely

2734
02:47:19,840 --> 02:47:23,760
Speaker 1: freaking the hell out because like, we'll have struck for

2735
02:47:23,959 --> 02:47:27,560
Speaker 1: six weeks or so and they'll still be poor. But like,

2736
02:47:29,240 --> 02:47:31,880
Speaker 1: I don't know how to be friends after that. I

2737
02:47:32,080 --> 02:47:34,320
Speaker 1: just wanted to catch a little bit more on the

2738
02:47:34,480 --> 02:47:41,600
Speaker 1: idea of feeding strikers and the massive logistical boon that

2739
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:45,360
Speaker 1: that was for a movement. Does anybody we call offhand

2740
02:47:45,760 --> 02:47:49,560
Speaker 1: how many weeks to strike went on? Oor, say six

2741
02:47:49,840 --> 02:47:52,320
Speaker 1: u AW rules who were in order to twentify for

2742
02:47:52,400 --> 02:47:56,480
Speaker 1: strike pay, we needed to have twenty hours of striking

2743
02:47:56,520 --> 02:48:00,880
Speaker 1: a week, So that boiled down to three ships. You

2744
02:48:01,040 --> 02:48:03,760
Speaker 1: could do them every you know, you could do two

2745
02:48:03,800 --> 02:48:06,640
Speaker 1: in one day and one another day. But by and large,

2746
02:48:07,160 --> 02:48:09,360
Speaker 1: at least most of the people on I Paint were there,

2747
02:48:10,200 --> 02:48:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, five days a week. But let's just say

2748
02:48:12,920 --> 02:48:16,240
Speaker 1: you got three ships. Lunch, as we've already established at

2749
02:48:16,280 --> 02:48:21,080
Speaker 1: the UC San Diego campus, is around thirteen dollars a person, right,

2750
02:48:21,520 --> 02:48:25,080
Speaker 1: So that's thirty nine dollars you're spending just on lunch,

2751
02:48:25,760 --> 02:48:29,280
Speaker 1: not on gas, which for me is quite expensive because

2752
02:48:29,280 --> 02:48:33,879
Speaker 1: they live somewhat far from campus, So thirty nine times

2753
02:48:34,040 --> 02:48:38,040
Speaker 1: six is two hundred and thirty four dollars. And when

2754
02:48:38,120 --> 02:48:43,160
Speaker 1: we struck for for these these high wages, you know

2755
02:48:43,600 --> 02:48:45,840
Speaker 1: that was worth it. We put in our effort and

2756
02:48:45,920 --> 02:48:48,160
Speaker 1: I sweat, But at the end of the day, those

2757
02:48:48,200 --> 02:48:50,679
Speaker 1: of us in the arts and humanities and the ass

2758
02:48:51,440 --> 02:48:55,760
Speaker 1: are seeing this year two hundred dollars base for a month,

2759
02:48:56,040 --> 02:49:01,680
Speaker 1: So just in our lunch that would have obviated the

2760
02:49:01,840 --> 02:49:05,879
Speaker 1: raises that we got during the strike. So I think,

2761
02:49:05,959 --> 02:49:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, this show's really the necessity or a mutual

2762
02:49:10,280 --> 02:49:14,560
Speaker 1: aid in workers' movements like this, because you know, we

2763
02:49:14,720 --> 02:49:17,160
Speaker 1: we if nobody else is going to beat us, we

2764
02:49:17,280 --> 02:49:20,760
Speaker 1: have to beat ourselves. Yeah, I think that's pretty It's

2765
02:49:20,760 --> 02:49:23,039
Speaker 1: good to put numbers on it, like it's a serious

2766
02:49:23,040 --> 02:49:26,240
Speaker 1: expensive it's not getting any cheaper. Another way that I

2767
02:49:26,360 --> 02:49:29,600
Speaker 1: see this is it's not just for workers, like the

2768
02:49:29,720 --> 02:49:32,160
Speaker 1: way that I see what Dollar Lunch Club is doing

2769
02:49:32,320 --> 02:49:36,640
Speaker 1: biased saying hey, we will provide either free or very

2770
02:49:36,720 --> 02:49:42,200
Speaker 1: cheap a dollar, you know, for lunch on these days

2771
02:49:42,240 --> 02:49:46,000
Speaker 1: of the week, basically every week. Whoever wants to come

2772
02:49:46,080 --> 02:49:48,960
Speaker 1: can come, whoever wants to help can help go for it.

2773
02:49:49,200 --> 02:49:51,640
Speaker 1: That to me is basically like a soup kitchen, like

2774
02:49:51,800 --> 02:49:54,440
Speaker 1: it is a The way that I see it is

2775
02:49:54,640 --> 02:50:01,680
Speaker 1: it's like a communist anarchist type project of like I'm

2776
02:50:01,720 --> 02:50:04,200
Speaker 1: not sure if I can say it's building power, but

2777
02:50:04,320 --> 02:50:07,800
Speaker 1: I feel that it's not just building community, but like

2778
02:50:08,360 --> 02:50:12,840
Speaker 1: allowing people to worry less about expenses, which means that

2779
02:50:12,959 --> 02:50:16,400
Speaker 1: they can put their energy into a lot of other things.

2780
02:50:16,560 --> 02:50:19,480
Speaker 1: Like the way that I would want Dollar Lunch Club

2781
02:50:19,600 --> 02:50:22,600
Speaker 1: to continue to evolve is that we would be able

2782
02:50:22,680 --> 02:50:27,199
Speaker 1: to offer lunch for, you know, people who can't afford

2783
02:50:27,280 --> 02:50:30,480
Speaker 1: the like twelve dollars campus lunches every day of the week,

2784
02:50:30,879 --> 02:50:36,160
Speaker 1: all week. Like imagining the difference of you know, like, okay,

2785
02:50:36,240 --> 02:50:39,280
Speaker 1: there's ten weeks in a quarter, five days in a week,

2786
02:50:39,400 --> 02:50:42,800
Speaker 1: so like fifty days that like you might be buying

2787
02:50:42,959 --> 02:50:45,320
Speaker 1: lunch at least half of those days. The difference of

2788
02:50:45,520 --> 02:50:49,360
Speaker 1: one dollar lunch versus like ten dollars lunch is like

2789
02:50:49,840 --> 02:50:52,920
Speaker 1: hundreds of dollars, right, So to me, if we can

2790
02:50:53,040 --> 02:50:56,600
Speaker 1: provide that, you know, as we grow in time to

2791
02:50:57,360 --> 02:51:00,760
Speaker 1: all five days of the week, you know, on several

2792
02:51:00,879 --> 02:51:03,840
Speaker 1: locations on campus, and we provide that for a couple

2793
02:51:03,920 --> 02:51:07,320
Speaker 1: of hundred students or community members or what have you.

2794
02:51:07,400 --> 02:51:10,560
Speaker 1: We will be making a material difference in these people's lives,

2795
02:51:10,920 --> 02:51:12,840
Speaker 1: and we will be showing them a different way that

2796
02:51:13,600 --> 02:51:17,320
Speaker 1: like organizing or not even just organizing, but like that

2797
02:51:18,000 --> 02:51:21,920
Speaker 1: accessibility to food can be organized. If that makes sense

2798
02:51:22,080 --> 02:51:25,560
Speaker 1: that it doesn't, you know, like getting food doesn't have

2799
02:51:25,720 --> 02:51:29,879
Speaker 1: to be this like capitalist project of like I am

2800
02:51:30,120 --> 02:51:32,920
Speaker 1: ordering this sort of thing and I am getting this back.

2801
02:51:33,080 --> 02:51:37,120
Speaker 1: It can be like the more along the terms of

2802
02:51:37,280 --> 02:51:39,920
Speaker 1: like what we're doing, which is like we are seeing

2803
02:51:40,160 --> 02:51:42,720
Speaker 1: what food has been donated to the pantry that we

2804
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:45,959
Speaker 1: work a lot with the Basic Needs Hub, the food

2805
02:51:46,040 --> 02:51:49,760
Speaker 1: pantry and so on to get a bunch of like

2806
02:51:49,920 --> 02:51:53,440
Speaker 1: donated produce out of which we make foods. Right, so

2807
02:51:53,520 --> 02:51:57,439
Speaker 1: we're reducing food waste. We're trying to you know, contribute

2808
02:51:57,440 --> 02:52:01,200
Speaker 1: to like food justice, making food as free as cheap

2809
02:52:01,280 --> 02:52:04,600
Speaker 1: as possible and allowing people to be like, hey, actually

2810
02:52:04,720 --> 02:52:08,039
Speaker 1: the cafeterias that you see on campus, you getting lunch

2811
02:52:08,120 --> 02:52:10,880
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to

2812
02:52:11,600 --> 02:52:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, like you pay you know, like two bucks

2813
02:52:14,360 --> 02:52:18,240
Speaker 1: for an apple or things like that. And then another

2814
02:52:18,360 --> 02:52:22,040
Speaker 1: thing that occasionally we've been doing is also foraging. So

2815
02:52:22,680 --> 02:52:27,160
Speaker 1: here in southern California, there's a lot of edible non

2816
02:52:27,240 --> 02:52:33,160
Speaker 1: native species such as like mustard, curly doc wild radish,

2817
02:52:33,480 --> 02:52:36,840
Speaker 1: things like that, and so we can like forage those

2818
02:52:36,920 --> 02:52:39,400
Speaker 1: and even make food out of them along with food

2819
02:52:39,480 --> 02:52:42,960
Speaker 1: from the food pantry. So, I you know, not that

2820
02:52:43,080 --> 02:52:45,840
Speaker 1: we're really doing this right now, but my dream would

2821
02:52:45,879 --> 02:52:48,840
Speaker 1: be to really kind of revolutionize the way that food

2822
02:52:48,920 --> 02:52:54,720
Speaker 1: culture is in UCSC and show people like, no, it

2823
02:52:54,840 --> 02:52:56,880
Speaker 1: can't be a food kitchen where you don't have to

2824
02:52:57,000 --> 02:53:00,800
Speaker 1: like expressly worry about where you're getting your your meal

2825
02:53:00,920 --> 02:53:03,680
Speaker 1: the next day. You don't have to pay three dollars

2826
02:53:03,800 --> 02:53:06,000
Speaker 1: for a banana, you don't have to do any of that.

2827
02:53:06,680 --> 02:53:09,320
Speaker 1: You can have like a better future you can't have

2828
02:53:09,560 --> 02:53:13,080
Speaker 1: like a better experience at the university or just like

2829
02:53:13,200 --> 02:53:15,680
Speaker 1: in life in general. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a

2830
02:53:16,560 --> 02:53:18,720
Speaker 1: that's really no. I know, like I teach the community

2831
02:53:18,760 --> 02:53:21,640
Speaker 1: college sometimes, so it's a little different from the UC

2832
02:53:21,879 --> 02:53:25,040
Speaker 1: but maybe not as different as people might imagine. And

2833
02:53:26,000 --> 02:53:29,040
Speaker 1: like one thing that I've noticed, like I always have

2834
02:53:29,120 --> 02:53:31,959
Speaker 1: food in my office and a lot of my students

2835
02:53:32,000 --> 02:53:34,160
Speaker 1: are in food procarity and have been for a while,

2836
02:53:34,280 --> 02:53:37,080
Speaker 1: and like certainly around like the time of the fucking

2837
02:53:37,200 --> 02:53:39,880
Speaker 1: travel band when when people's parents were stuck outside the

2838
02:53:39,920 --> 02:53:43,840
Speaker 1: country and they defend for themselves. It's a way that

2839
02:53:44,040 --> 02:53:46,440
Speaker 1: like we can move from this moment of alien nation,

2840
02:53:46,560 --> 02:53:49,840
Speaker 1: which is like you know, your interaction with pandor express

2841
02:53:50,680 --> 02:53:53,640
Speaker 1: where you give money and you get a box of

2842
02:53:53,680 --> 02:53:57,240
Speaker 1: food you eat by yourself, to like a moment of solidarity,

2843
02:53:57,560 --> 02:54:00,560
Speaker 1: which is cool. Um, yeah, it's great. You're foraging too.

2844
02:54:00,959 --> 02:54:02,600
Speaker 1: I want to do a foraging episode one day, so

2845
02:54:02,600 --> 02:54:06,280
Speaker 1: I'll have to have you back for that. I want

2846
02:54:06,320 --> 02:54:08,880
Speaker 1: to like finish up maybe by just talking about some

2847
02:54:09,000 --> 02:54:14,000
Speaker 1: logistical stuff. And anarchists have been feeding people communists or

2848
02:54:14,040 --> 02:54:16,480
Speaker 1: leftists or whatever like for quite a long time, right,

2849
02:54:16,560 --> 02:54:20,000
Speaker 1: like I can. Some of my best food memories are

2850
02:54:20,200 --> 02:54:24,560
Speaker 1: like eating beans with people, you know, like food not

2851
02:54:24,680 --> 02:54:27,879
Speaker 1: bombs things. At the I do a lot of work

2852
02:54:27,920 --> 02:54:30,440
Speaker 1: with refugees, so like food not bomb things in twenty

2853
02:54:30,480 --> 02:54:34,320
Speaker 1: eighteen with a migrant caravan, or people making pancakes at

2854
02:54:34,360 --> 02:54:36,720
Speaker 1: the G eight protest in the early two thousands. Like

2855
02:54:36,800 --> 02:54:39,320
Speaker 1: some of my best memories not of just food, but

2856
02:54:39,440 --> 02:54:44,040
Speaker 1: like of forming community around food. So like when you're

2857
02:54:44,080 --> 02:54:47,880
Speaker 1: doing this stuff, like it's there only if someone wants

2858
02:54:47,879 --> 02:54:49,400
Speaker 1: to someone here is they say like, hell, yeah, I

2859
02:54:49,400 --> 02:54:51,080
Speaker 1: want to do that on my campus, at my workplace,

2860
02:54:51,160 --> 02:54:54,800
Speaker 1: in my town whatever. Like logistically it sounds like you

2861
02:54:54,920 --> 02:54:57,600
Speaker 1: guys have a corner on the insta pot market. But like,

2862
02:54:58,320 --> 02:55:00,560
Speaker 1: aside from that, like a cooking vegan food so it's

2863
02:55:00,600 --> 02:55:03,720
Speaker 1: it's more accessible for more people. You know, what kind

2864
02:55:03,720 --> 02:55:06,240
Speaker 1: of stuff like that would you advise for people? I

2865
02:55:06,360 --> 02:55:09,520
Speaker 1: can jump in on this, ye, cooking cooking to scale

2866
02:55:10,000 --> 02:55:13,879
Speaker 1: is an entirely different beast than cooking for yourself at home.

2867
02:55:14,320 --> 02:55:20,959
Speaker 1: And um, you've already identified beans as being really legumes

2868
02:55:21,560 --> 02:55:25,640
Speaker 1: and grains bought in bulk machine kind of a surprise

2869
02:55:25,760 --> 02:55:28,560
Speaker 1: to anybody who who's thought about it for ever a

2870
02:55:28,640 --> 02:55:31,120
Speaker 1: hot second that that when you buy in bulk, it's

2871
02:55:31,160 --> 02:55:36,560
Speaker 1: far cheaper, but it also comes with downsides like when

2872
02:55:36,600 --> 02:55:39,960
Speaker 1: you're soaking beans, you often you know, have to soak

2873
02:55:40,040 --> 02:55:43,720
Speaker 1: those beans a long time ahead of time. Um, And

2874
02:55:44,879 --> 02:55:47,240
Speaker 1: what we have been doing, which I think that my

2875
02:55:47,720 --> 02:55:51,280
Speaker 1: my comrades have touched on, is sourcing from a great

2876
02:55:51,400 --> 02:56:00,520
Speaker 1: variety of local food banks and barns and donation both

2877
02:56:00,600 --> 02:56:04,320
Speaker 1: during the strike and afterwards. One thing that I would

2878
02:56:04,400 --> 02:56:08,280
Speaker 1: say we struggled with in the initial phases of Dollar

2879
02:56:08,400 --> 02:56:11,960
Speaker 1: Lunch Club when we were still actively striking, was that

2880
02:56:12,400 --> 02:56:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, the absolute best of goodwill in the world.

2881
02:56:15,000 --> 02:56:20,120
Speaker 1: Everybody wanted to donate foodstuffs, um, and that meant that

2882
02:56:20,160 --> 02:56:23,720
Speaker 1: our meal planning was was significantly harder because you know,

2883
02:56:23,800 --> 02:56:26,520
Speaker 1: we have half a can of tomato paste and we

2884
02:56:26,640 --> 02:56:29,800
Speaker 1: have twenty five cans of pinto beans and you know,

2885
02:56:30,320 --> 02:56:37,560
Speaker 1: ten bulbs of pentel and three crackers. Like definitely, we

2886
02:56:37,920 --> 02:56:43,160
Speaker 1: found that it was easier to solicit both cash financially,

2887
02:56:43,320 --> 02:56:47,200
Speaker 1: you know, setting up what's what's it called a venmo

2888
02:56:47,840 --> 02:56:52,760
Speaker 1: um and also you know for people who can't give money, um,

2889
02:56:53,640 --> 02:56:57,040
Speaker 1: we put them to work. And and that was you know,

2890
02:56:57,120 --> 02:56:59,360
Speaker 1: because people want to help, and we felt kind of

2891
02:56:59,400 --> 02:57:02,440
Speaker 1: bad after while turning people away, who are you offering

2892
02:57:02,480 --> 02:57:04,520
Speaker 1: to go to the store. And at one point in

2893
02:57:04,520 --> 02:57:07,080
Speaker 1: the strikeway, I think we got like twenty five prepackaged

2894
02:57:07,160 --> 02:57:09,240
Speaker 1: Indian meals which we ended up giving out to people

2895
02:57:09,720 --> 02:57:12,040
Speaker 1: for lunch. But as far as feeding people on site,

2896
02:57:14,320 --> 02:57:17,280
Speaker 1: you know, being very specific about what kinds of things

2897
02:57:17,360 --> 02:57:20,960
Speaker 1: you're looking for ahead of time, meal planning in a

2898
02:57:21,240 --> 02:57:26,160
Speaker 1: well in advance with a sort of basic framework of okay,

2899
02:57:26,280 --> 02:57:29,600
Speaker 1: we got a bean and we got a starch what

2900
02:57:29,840 --> 02:57:33,320
Speaker 1: we have to throw into the bean pot. The last

2901
02:57:33,360 --> 02:57:37,920
Speaker 1: thing I would say is as as Anna has rightly

2902
02:57:38,000 --> 02:57:48,000
Speaker 1: been champion for the actual cooking devices are super important too,

2903
02:57:48,600 --> 02:57:51,440
Speaker 1: and that was one of that has perpetually been one

2904
02:57:51,480 --> 02:57:54,800
Speaker 1: of our biggest struggles because you know, we don't have

2905
02:57:54,840 --> 02:57:57,320
Speaker 1: a call ender, so we can't drain the beans. And

2906
02:57:57,640 --> 02:58:00,840
Speaker 1: we have four insta pots, but they're different sizes, and

2907
02:58:01,000 --> 02:58:03,760
Speaker 1: the lives for two don't work with wear and tear.

2908
02:58:04,920 --> 02:58:08,920
Speaker 1: Stuff is you know, breaking right when you need it

2909
02:58:09,000 --> 02:58:14,760
Speaker 1: the most. So you know, if you are getting money donations,

2910
02:58:15,320 --> 02:58:19,600
Speaker 1: I think it's really important to budget for the pots

2911
02:58:19,680 --> 02:58:23,280
Speaker 1: and the pans and can openers and these kinds of

2912
02:58:23,360 --> 02:58:26,160
Speaker 1: things that really make a difference in getting Blue hot

2913
02:58:26,440 --> 02:58:29,720
Speaker 1: and out on time and large numbers. Yeah, I think

2914
02:58:29,800 --> 02:58:32,440
Speaker 1: that's very good advice. Maria had something to add. I

2915
02:58:32,560 --> 02:58:35,320
Speaker 1: have actually a lot of things to add logistics wise,

2916
02:58:35,360 --> 02:58:38,800
Speaker 1: because in our meetings we talk about some some some

2917
02:58:39,920 --> 02:58:41,879
Speaker 1: parts of this, and so one of the big things

2918
02:58:41,959 --> 02:58:45,880
Speaker 1: that we talked about over the strike but also after

2919
02:58:46,040 --> 02:58:48,480
Speaker 1: the strike when we were like, hey, let's let's continue

2920
02:58:48,560 --> 02:58:51,520
Speaker 1: this project, is how much of our things should be

2921
02:58:51,680 --> 02:58:54,880
Speaker 1: like reusable versus like disposable right. That was like a

2922
02:58:54,959 --> 02:58:58,920
Speaker 1: big topic of like, well, okay, we're using disposable forks,

2923
02:58:59,200 --> 02:59:02,640
Speaker 1: and we don't like that environmentally because we're putting like

2924
02:59:02,720 --> 02:59:07,119
Speaker 1: a bunch of plastic into you know, the trash, right,

2925
02:59:07,280 --> 02:59:11,119
Speaker 1: and we have to buy plastic each time. But then

2926
02:59:11,240 --> 02:59:13,880
Speaker 1: like we don't know, okay, you know, like should we

2927
02:59:14,080 --> 02:59:16,440
Speaker 1: should we buy like, you know, a bunch of metal spoons,

2928
02:59:16,520 --> 02:59:18,160
Speaker 1: but they're going to be a little bit more expensive

2929
02:59:18,200 --> 02:59:20,640
Speaker 1: than the disposable ones, but you know, maybe the costs

2930
02:59:20,680 --> 02:59:23,640
Speaker 1: will even out after a while, and like that. That

2931
02:59:23,879 --> 02:59:26,560
Speaker 1: kind of you know, discussion has to be had about

2932
02:59:26,640 --> 02:59:29,760
Speaker 1: like everything, so you know, about like bowls, about like

2933
02:59:29,879 --> 02:59:32,680
Speaker 1: the pans in which we cook in like mixing bowls,

2934
02:59:32,760 --> 02:59:35,200
Speaker 1: like all kinds of things like that where we're thinking,

2935
02:59:35,320 --> 02:59:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, like based on the funds that we have,

2936
02:59:38,080 --> 02:59:40,880
Speaker 1: based on our usage of some of these products, is

2937
02:59:40,920 --> 02:59:43,920
Speaker 1: it worth it getting you know, like reusable things, which

2938
02:59:44,720 --> 02:59:47,680
Speaker 1: unfortunately will have to like clean afterwards, so they add

2939
02:59:47,720 --> 02:59:51,440
Speaker 1: to the labor but thankfully they don't you know, pollute

2940
02:59:51,440 --> 02:59:55,160
Speaker 1: the environment and the way that disposable things do so

2941
02:59:55,760 --> 02:59:59,879
Speaker 1: for us, because we do care a lot about lowering

2942
03:00:00,040 --> 03:00:04,000
Speaker 1: our usage of plastic. We did pivot to using more

2943
03:00:04,320 --> 03:00:07,520
Speaker 1: reusable things. So I think for a group that may

2944
03:00:07,560 --> 03:00:10,520
Speaker 1: be interested in, you know, like facilitating something like this

2945
03:00:10,640 --> 03:00:13,280
Speaker 1: in their workplace or in their university or something like that,

2946
03:00:13,680 --> 03:00:15,840
Speaker 1: I think that is one important discussion that you want

2947
03:00:15,879 --> 03:00:18,199
Speaker 1: to have. What is the time course that you see

2948
03:00:18,600 --> 03:00:21,520
Speaker 1: of this project continuing and is it worth it getting

2949
03:00:21,560 --> 03:00:26,600
Speaker 1: you know, like reusable versus disposable tools for the people

2950
03:00:26,680 --> 03:00:30,200
Speaker 1: that possibly you're going to feed. Another thing that is

2951
03:00:31,800 --> 03:00:37,400
Speaker 1: related to this is when you're first starting to cook,

2952
03:00:37,959 --> 03:00:41,240
Speaker 1: really you're trying to borrow things from other people. So

2953
03:00:41,440 --> 03:00:44,760
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that like during the strike,

2954
03:00:44,840 --> 03:00:47,880
Speaker 1: we had just borrowed people's instapots, Like people brought in

2955
03:00:47,959 --> 03:00:50,520
Speaker 1: their instapots, they labeled them like, oh, this is you know,

2956
03:00:50,680 --> 03:00:54,360
Speaker 1: Dana's instapot, and then we use those instapots. After the strike,

2957
03:00:54,440 --> 03:00:56,680
Speaker 1: we couldn't do that anymore. But there were some people

2958
03:00:56,800 --> 03:00:59,280
Speaker 1: that were willing to be like, Hey, I'm actually like

2959
03:00:59,440 --> 03:01:01,880
Speaker 1: moving out and I'll donate all these tupperware to you.

2960
03:01:02,000 --> 03:01:03,920
Speaker 1: And so we took the tupperware and now we have

2961
03:01:04,080 --> 03:01:07,240
Speaker 1: like a little tupperware program where if people don't forget

2962
03:01:07,280 --> 03:01:09,440
Speaker 1: to bring their tupperware to put lunch in. We just

2963
03:01:09,560 --> 03:01:11,880
Speaker 1: like label it. You see a Z dollar lunch club,

2964
03:01:11,920 --> 03:01:14,119
Speaker 1: you see a mutual aid and we just give away

2965
03:01:14,120 --> 03:01:16,680
Speaker 1: the tupperware and oftentimes you know it's brought back to

2966
03:01:16,800 --> 03:01:20,240
Speaker 1: us that kind of thing, and that again facilitates food usage.

2967
03:01:20,280 --> 03:01:22,680
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of places where you can find

2968
03:01:23,320 --> 03:01:28,760
Speaker 1: things that you might need in this kind of thing,

2969
03:01:28,879 --> 03:01:31,840
Speaker 1: so can openers. I have found a bunch of jars

2970
03:01:31,920 --> 03:01:34,480
Speaker 1: that people you know, after they're moving away, they lead

2971
03:01:34,560 --> 03:01:37,840
Speaker 1: for free around graduate housing. So like there's a lot

2972
03:01:37,879 --> 03:01:41,119
Speaker 1: of things that you can get which don't really require

2973
03:01:41,200 --> 03:01:44,120
Speaker 1: funds for There's also buying nothing groups on Facebook that

2974
03:01:44,200 --> 03:01:46,960
Speaker 1: I think are particularly effective for this. So a lot

2975
03:01:47,040 --> 03:01:48,800
Speaker 1: of people that are just like, oh yeah, I'm like

2976
03:01:48,920 --> 03:01:50,880
Speaker 1: updating my kitchen, I'm throwing away a bunch of these

2977
03:01:50,959 --> 03:01:53,560
Speaker 1: utensils that you can just get for free. So that's

2978
03:01:53,600 --> 03:01:56,080
Speaker 1: been really helpful for us as well, and as someone

2979
03:01:56,120 --> 03:01:57,840
Speaker 1: who does a lot of sourcing as well, so we

2980
03:01:57,959 --> 03:02:01,240
Speaker 1: tend to shop from goodwill and other thrift stores to

2981
03:02:01,800 --> 03:02:07,680
Speaker 1: make sure that you know, are buying in the consumption

2982
03:02:07,760 --> 03:02:11,880
Speaker 1: of some of these tools is as ethical if you

2983
03:02:11,959 --> 03:02:15,240
Speaker 1: can call it that, as possible. And then a third

2984
03:02:15,320 --> 03:02:17,480
Speaker 1: thing that I would like to add for anyone who

2985
03:02:17,560 --> 03:02:20,200
Speaker 1: wants to, you know, start a project like this is

2986
03:02:20,800 --> 03:02:23,400
Speaker 1: I think you have to make it be fun for you,

2987
03:02:23,680 --> 03:02:27,280
Speaker 1: the person that's cooking and cleaning and organizing, apart from

2988
03:02:27,360 --> 03:02:29,560
Speaker 1: making it fun for everyone else who gets you know,

2989
03:02:29,760 --> 03:02:34,000
Speaker 1: like free food, cheap food, tasty food. Right. So, something

2990
03:02:34,080 --> 03:02:36,520
Speaker 1: that I really like about Dollar Lunch Club is that

2991
03:02:36,640 --> 03:02:39,720
Speaker 1: we've been really allowing our members to like run wild

2992
03:02:39,800 --> 03:02:43,520
Speaker 1: with the ideas that they have. Right So, for example,

2993
03:02:44,800 --> 03:02:49,000
Speaker 1: we Anna and I have been talking about utilizing all

2994
03:02:49,080 --> 03:02:51,360
Speaker 1: the frozen bread that has been donated to us and

2995
03:02:51,560 --> 03:02:54,560
Speaker 1: making French toast vegan French toast out of that. So

2996
03:02:54,680 --> 03:02:57,880
Speaker 1: we're really excited for doing something fun like that because

2997
03:02:58,000 --> 03:03:01,280
Speaker 1: usually in a lot of like Sue Kitchen places, you

2998
03:03:02,320 --> 03:03:05,360
Speaker 1: you have foods that are like, hey, this is nutritious,

2999
03:03:05,440 --> 03:03:08,920
Speaker 1: but you know, like I don't want to eat beans

3000
03:03:09,160 --> 03:03:11,680
Speaker 1: all day, and someone who like does like beans, but

3001
03:03:11,800 --> 03:03:14,720
Speaker 1: not everyone else wants to just eat you know, like

3002
03:03:16,160 --> 03:03:18,360
Speaker 1: mashed beans all day, that kind of thing. And so

3003
03:03:18,879 --> 03:03:21,920
Speaker 1: having a like a variety of things that we cook,

3004
03:03:22,040 --> 03:03:26,080
Speaker 1: like we pretty much like cook all kinds of curries,

3005
03:03:26,240 --> 03:03:28,600
Speaker 1: a lot of like rice dishes, a lot of stews,

3006
03:03:29,600 --> 03:03:33,680
Speaker 1: pesto and spaghetti like pasta, you know, just like all

3007
03:03:34,360 --> 03:03:36,480
Speaker 1: very different kinds of meals that make it fun for

3008
03:03:36,560 --> 03:03:39,280
Speaker 1: the people who are arriving. So, like I mentioned pesto,

3009
03:03:39,360 --> 03:03:41,520
Speaker 1: I made pesto a couple of times, and like a

3010
03:03:41,600 --> 03:03:45,320
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, ooh, pesto basil, that's gonna

3011
03:03:45,360 --> 03:03:47,720
Speaker 1: be great. And that was with like the forge mustard

3012
03:03:47,760 --> 03:03:51,720
Speaker 1: that I was talking about before, And like when you

3013
03:03:51,840 --> 03:03:54,160
Speaker 1: have that kind of variety and when you have like

3014
03:03:54,400 --> 03:03:59,680
Speaker 1: interesting fun foods, when you can like make boba in

3015
03:04:00,040 --> 03:04:03,240
Speaker 1: an install pot, or you could grab a toaster oven

3016
03:04:03,280 --> 03:04:05,920
Speaker 1: and make garlic bread, which is things that we've done,

3017
03:04:06,360 --> 03:04:08,640
Speaker 1: you make it a lot more fun for the people

3018
03:04:08,720 --> 03:04:10,680
Speaker 1: that are cooking as well, and it just becomes like

3019
03:04:10,760 --> 03:04:13,960
Speaker 1: a community building thing, not just for the people eating,

3020
03:04:14,040 --> 03:04:17,800
Speaker 1: but for the people doing that labor. So that's like,

3021
03:04:17,959 --> 03:04:20,600
Speaker 1: that's what I would advise people, Like, yes, you are

3022
03:04:20,760 --> 03:04:24,560
Speaker 1: under very tight budgetary constraints. We try to like for

3023
03:04:24,720 --> 03:04:28,040
Speaker 1: some meals, like because there's so much donations, sometimes there's

3024
03:04:28,080 --> 03:04:30,640
Speaker 1: zero dollars. Sometimes we have to buy things and we

3025
03:04:30,800 --> 03:04:32,920
Speaker 1: try to have it be less than twenty dollars so

3026
03:04:33,040 --> 03:04:35,680
Speaker 1: we can like feed thirty to forty people, and you

3027
03:04:35,760 --> 03:04:39,760
Speaker 1: can like have that you know, money that's donated for

3028
03:04:39,959 --> 03:04:43,800
Speaker 1: like one dollar. Have that be for like next time

3029
03:04:43,920 --> 03:04:47,800
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, did I Yeah, so like make

3030
03:04:47,840 --> 03:04:50,840
Speaker 1: it fun for yourself so you can like continue doing

3031
03:04:50,920 --> 03:04:52,760
Speaker 1: that work and you won't burn out in the way

3032
03:04:52,840 --> 03:04:59,680
Speaker 1: that you might otherwise even as you are trying to budget. Yeah. Yeah,

3033
03:05:00,000 --> 03:05:04,680
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say, um, Like, in terms of roles, Um,

3034
03:05:05,080 --> 03:05:09,040
Speaker 1: so we always have like somebody who like knows how

3035
03:05:09,360 --> 03:05:15,360
Speaker 1: to like pull a recipe together. More Um, we always

3036
03:05:15,400 --> 03:05:19,040
Speaker 1: have to have somebody who like does dish washing. And

3037
03:05:19,400 --> 03:05:21,640
Speaker 1: like each of these roles can have like one or

3038
03:05:21,680 --> 03:05:25,080
Speaker 1: two or three people in it in it and then

3039
03:05:25,120 --> 03:05:28,640
Speaker 1: there's always like people who just like do the like

3040
03:05:28,920 --> 03:05:34,600
Speaker 1: labor of prep um and um. Like, yeah, that could

3041
03:05:34,600 --> 03:05:37,080
Speaker 1: be all the same person and or it can be

3042
03:05:37,360 --> 03:05:41,560
Speaker 1: multiple for each um. And I want to say, usually

3043
03:05:41,760 --> 03:05:45,760
Speaker 1: I am a person who either like like I show

3044
03:05:45,879 --> 03:05:49,360
Speaker 1: up to peel veggies that people tell me need to

3045
03:05:49,400 --> 03:05:53,080
Speaker 1: be peeled, and I show up to wash dishes. Um,

3046
03:05:53,879 --> 03:05:58,520
Speaker 1: because I'm not a person who is like I have

3047
03:05:58,720 --> 03:06:01,760
Speaker 1: trouble making decisions about food. I do not want to

3048
03:06:01,800 --> 03:06:04,400
Speaker 1: be in charge of food stuff. And that has been

3049
03:06:04,520 --> 03:06:10,640
Speaker 1: like okay, And that has meant that like I do

3050
03:06:10,840 --> 03:06:13,400
Speaker 1: not have to like get nervous and worked up about

3051
03:06:13,440 --> 03:06:15,880
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to make decisions about food.

3052
03:06:15,959 --> 03:06:19,080
Speaker 1: Here I can just show up in peel carrots and

3053
03:06:19,520 --> 03:06:24,240
Speaker 1: it's like kind of helped me, um, like maybe get

3054
03:06:24,240 --> 03:06:27,560
Speaker 1: a little bit of a better feel for like cooking stuff. Um.

3055
03:06:27,720 --> 03:06:31,240
Speaker 1: So that way when I am like just cooking for myself, UM,

3056
03:06:31,800 --> 03:06:34,440
Speaker 1: I do just think of like, okay, if I was

3057
03:06:35,680 --> 03:06:41,000
Speaker 1: like if I was in you know, like dollar lunch

3058
03:06:41,080 --> 03:06:43,520
Speaker 1: prep mode, Um, I know I have rice, and I

3059
03:06:43,600 --> 03:06:47,960
Speaker 1: know I have beans, and so I'm set, um and

3060
03:06:49,200 --> 03:06:53,360
Speaker 1: uh yeah, and a lot a lot of times just

3061
03:06:53,560 --> 03:06:58,000
Speaker 1: like taking away the like the dirty dish bin and

3062
03:06:58,160 --> 03:07:01,840
Speaker 1: sort of like leaving out maybe like a few washed

3063
03:07:01,959 --> 03:07:05,000
Speaker 1: bowls by the sink along with a sponge and a

3064
03:07:05,080 --> 03:07:08,039
Speaker 1: bit of soap. People get the queue and they'll wash

3065
03:07:08,120 --> 03:07:13,160
Speaker 1: their on dishes. It's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think

3066
03:07:13,200 --> 03:07:16,440
Speaker 1: that's great. Actually having space for different skill sets and

3067
03:07:16,640 --> 03:07:20,959
Speaker 1: different preferences within your organizing is always key, okay, guys,

3068
03:07:21,040 --> 03:07:23,840
Speaker 1: And where can people find like if they want to

3069
03:07:24,280 --> 03:07:28,280
Speaker 1: ask you for bean recipes or follow along cepages whatever

3070
03:07:28,360 --> 03:07:30,720
Speaker 1: it is, like a dollar lunch club social media they

3071
03:07:30,760 --> 03:07:33,080
Speaker 1: can find or do you have individual ones you want

3072
03:07:33,080 --> 03:07:37,560
Speaker 1: to share? Uh so, I think Alex can talk about

3073
03:07:37,680 --> 03:07:42,039
Speaker 1: the website. I have a website. Yes, I made us.

3074
03:07:42,120 --> 03:07:44,960
Speaker 1: I made us a website. Um. So we are most

3075
03:07:45,040 --> 03:07:49,440
Speaker 1: active on Instagram. Un can put our handle in the

3076
03:07:49,560 --> 03:07:56,160
Speaker 1: chat is Dollar Underscore Lunch Underscore Club on Instagram. Um

3077
03:07:57,000 --> 03:08:03,879
Speaker 1: and yeah, the website is Dollar Lunch Club UCSD, separated

3078
03:08:03,959 --> 03:08:08,400
Speaker 1: by dashes and then dot get hub, dot io because

3079
03:08:09,000 --> 03:08:11,680
Speaker 1: you can get free domain names if it's your get

3080
03:08:11,760 --> 03:08:18,400
Speaker 1: hub user name. Hot tip of the day, but uh yeah,

3081
03:08:18,600 --> 03:08:22,680
Speaker 1: primarily on Instagram. Nice. Yeah, it's great. All right, Well,

3082
03:08:22,760 --> 03:08:24,520
Speaker 1: thank you very much for your time, guys. I already

3083
03:08:24,520 --> 03:08:27,119
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and yeah, I hope more people do the same, because,

3084
03:08:27,440 --> 03:08:29,119
Speaker 1: as you said, I think this is really important way

3085
03:08:29,120 --> 03:08:36,080
Speaker 1: to organize. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Hey,

3086
03:08:36,200 --> 03:08:39,320
Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3087
03:08:39,360 --> 03:08:41,920
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It could

3088
03:08:41,959 --> 03:08:44,240
Speaker 1: happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For

3089
03:08:44,400 --> 03:08:47,120
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

3090
03:08:47,200 --> 03:08:50,040
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3091
03:08:50,080 --> 03:08:53,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

3092
03:08:53,280 --> 03:08:55,920
Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

3093
03:08:56,000 --> 03:08:59,199
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.