Speaker 1: Taking Sideways is not brought to you by requests for clapping. Instead,
Speaker 1: it's brought to you by taking Sideways. We are going
Speaker 1: to meet up with you guys on October fourteen for
Speaker 1: well guess what I meet up. That's why we're meeting
Speaker 1: up with you, huh uh. And so the time and
Speaker 1: the place have you have to be determined, but keep
Speaker 1: an eye on social media. Will be announcing it there,
Speaker 1: so stay tuned. So well, hey there, and welcome again
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve as usual,
Speaker 1: joint by and Joe, and once again we have a
Speaker 1: mystery for you. This week, we're going to talk of
Speaker 1: out the supposed suicide of Rebecca's a how or at
Speaker 1: least primarily, that's what we're gonna talk about. There's some
Speaker 1: other things that are tied in the story that will
Speaker 1: cover before I forget though. This story is a listeners suggestion,
Speaker 1: so it was suggested by at least the people that
Speaker 1: I saw on the list, which were Diane, Rebecca and Andy.
Speaker 1: So he's usually about as long as we go on
Speaker 1: our list anyway. Sorry, Yeah, so I said that primarily
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about Rebecca's so how the reason
Speaker 1: that I said that is that we're also going to
Speaker 1: be talking about the death of six year old Max Shackni.
Speaker 1: So quick, little ear warning, this story is gonna it's
Speaker 1: gonna be dealing with suicide, the death of a six
Speaker 1: year old boy, and there may be some other graphic
Speaker 1: conversation in there. So if you've got little ones around
Speaker 1: or if that that content is not okay for you,
Speaker 1: this is one to pause or skip for later. I
Speaker 1: would turn the volume way up. I don't know. Yeah, no, well,
Speaker 1: if skija out, don't listen to it. Alright, here we go.
Speaker 1: Story takes place in two thousand eleven between the eleventh
Speaker 1: and of July. At the time, thirty two year old
Speaker 1: Rebecca's Howe was living with her boyfriend Jonash Shacknai, and
Speaker 1: they were living in his home, which was the Spreckles Mansion,
Speaker 1: which is in Coronado, California, which apparently is an expensive area.
Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, if people know the area, that will
Speaker 1: give you an income or an idea of his income
Speaker 1: and the value of his home. But for those of
Speaker 1: you who don't know, Coronado is a high priced island
Speaker 1: just off of San Diego twem San Diego Harebor Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's actually more of a peninsula, but everybody calls
Speaker 1: it an island, so it's fancier to call it an
Speaker 1: island than it is to fancier to be like I
Speaker 1: live on this exclusive island exactly, and it makes the
Speaker 1: lot sport. Yeah. I And also if you probably everybody
Speaker 1: has seen pictures of the Coronado Hotel, which is the
Speaker 1: big land mark. It's a huge you know you're seeing
Speaker 1: the Coronado Hotel, right, I'm pretty sure I have. It
Speaker 1: is on Coronado Island, and it's the one that's got
Speaker 1: white walls and this huge red conical roof with little
Speaker 1: dormers popping off the enormous structure. It woulden structure and beautiful.
Speaker 1: I was there once, like tenner or fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: Really nice. You didn't stay at the hotel. I looked
Speaker 1: at it and they charged you for that. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was there with a friend and we walked through and
Speaker 1: looked around and stuff. But yeah, we're working about the
Speaker 1: stop for security would have come up on you. Okay. Well,
Speaker 1: Joda shack Kni he had a home on Coronado. It
Speaker 1: was actually the Spreckles Mansion that was actually kind of
Speaker 1: his vacation. It was. It wasn't his primary residently has
Speaker 1: too much money. Yeah, well okay, so here's here's an idea.
Speaker 1: This mansion at the time was valued at twelve mill,
Speaker 1: which wasn't that big of a deal for him because
Speaker 1: Joda shack Ny at the time was the CEO of
Speaker 1: Medicea's Pharmaceuticals. I think that's how you pronounced it. But
Speaker 1: but he was pulling in eight mill annually at the
Speaker 1: time as a salary. So this was, you know, an
Speaker 1: affordable home for him, probably besides the salary, probably getting
Speaker 1: a boatload of like stocks and stuff like that. To boo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah. Rebecca and Jonah they at this time had
Speaker 1: been dating for about two years. Uh. The other player
Speaker 1: that we talked about just a moment ago was Max
Speaker 1: Max shack Ni That is Jonah's son. It is his
Speaker 1: son from his second marriage. He had I think it
Speaker 1: was two or three other children from his first marriage,
Speaker 1: but it was two, but Max was his only child
Speaker 1: from his second marriage. And Max was six, and I
Speaker 1: already said that, well, yeah, no, no, let's see this.
Speaker 1: This is perfect for kind of a brief rundown of
Speaker 1: our our characters. Here, Max six Caucasian boy. He weighs
Speaker 1: about sixty pounds or equates to he's three ft nine
Speaker 1: inches tall, which is one point one meter tall with cover.
Speaker 1: Rebecca as well, because her build will play into the story.
Speaker 1: She was thirty two, as I said, Asian about a
Speaker 1: hundred pounds, which is she was five ft three inches,
Speaker 1: which is one point six meters tall. So she's not
Speaker 1: a big lady. And Max is, of course your average
Speaker 1: six year old kid. He's just a little kid. Can
Speaker 1: I ask the question, I'm going back a little bit.
Speaker 1: You probably know the answer to this, but I'm just wondering.
Speaker 1: Jonah just had the two X wives, Rebecca presumably would
Speaker 1: have been the third ex wife eventually if they had
Speaker 1: gotten married, then that would be I just would make
Speaker 1: her in line for to be the third X wife.
Speaker 1: I figured that was the case, but I just for
Speaker 1: some reason, only only two. Only two? Well, apparently he
Speaker 1: had mentioned to some people that he could see the
Speaker 1: relationship going to a point where he and Rebecca would
Speaker 1: get married. But you know, that's just conversation. There's hardly
Speaker 1: anything official, totally, not like they were engaged or anything.
Speaker 1: And she went and died, So what are you gonna
Speaker 1: do well. Yeah, so I got to find another ex wife.
Speaker 1: Let's let's start on the eleventh of July. Rebecca is
Speaker 1: at home with both Max and also her younger sister
Speaker 1: who was visiting. Her sister's name is Zina. Zina was
Speaker 1: thirteen at the time. Rebecca said that she was in
Speaker 1: the bathroom when she heard a loud, crashing noise and
Speaker 1: she came out to see what it was. What it
Speaker 1: was was Max. He'd been on the second floor and
Speaker 1: he had somehow gone over the railing of the stairs
Speaker 1: and had fallen down to the first floor. Zena calls
Speaker 1: N one one while Rebecca tries to help. Max. Didn't
Speaker 1: really know what to do, but she's trying. She reportedly
Speaker 1: said that he said one word, which was the dog's name, ocean,
Speaker 1: or the same could be or that large body of
Speaker 1: water right across the street. He said ocean. He said ocean.
Speaker 1: What he was referring to specifically, we do not know,
Speaker 1: because he then lost consciousness and he never regained it again.
Speaker 1: Sadly for Max, he was you know, the rushed him
Speaker 1: to the hospital. This is the eleventh. He would linger
Speaker 1: on for five days total, but he would pass away
Speaker 1: on the sixteen after being officially declared brain dead, they
Speaker 1: turned off the machines. So there's a lot of questions
Speaker 1: surrounding Max's death, and we need to dive into that
Speaker 1: just a little bit more, just to explain a little more,
Speaker 1: because according to a lot of the official stuff, it's
Speaker 1: a major player in Rebecca's death. Some people think it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some people say that. The official people say that. Actually, well,
Speaker 1: the conspiracy theorists say it too, well, some of them. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's start with the scene of the accident. The scene
Speaker 1: of the accident was for Max was in an interior
Speaker 1: stairway and it's it's one of those stairways where it
Speaker 1: goes up for half a flight. It took a nine
Speaker 1: new degree left hand turn. There's a landing, and then
Speaker 1: it makes another ninety degree turn and goes up and
Speaker 1: continue the wall right, So the walls on one side,
Speaker 1: banister on the other yep, and it in the middle yep.
Speaker 1: And then it leaves a cavity in the space. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in around it. Um. Now, the stairs. When they came
Speaker 1: up to the top the balcony or the handrail, the
Speaker 1: guard rail continued to a wall that was several feet
Speaker 1: past the top of the stairs, so the hallway opened
Speaker 1: out into that open space, which you know, it's pretty
Speaker 1: and people liked it because then you can look down
Speaker 1: and you can hang a giant chandelier in the middle
Speaker 1: and it goes down two stories and it's beautiful. Well,
Speaker 1: and they did have a giant because they were rich
Speaker 1: people in the early two thousand. Yeah. Interestingly, if you
Speaker 1: look at I saw a bunch of pictures of the
Speaker 1: side of the mansion and it actually is not that
Speaker 1: that's that's splendorous. It's it's actually the rooms are a
Speaker 1: little larger and the finishes are a little nicer. But really,
Speaker 1: you know, it's really it wasn't it wasn't that fantastic.
Speaker 1: But it has been redone because I found photos for
Speaker 1: sale again and they've come through. They've stripped the carpet,
Speaker 1: they've redone a bunch of stuff to basically kind of
Speaker 1: scrub off this entire story out. Yeah, because I was
Speaker 1: confused when I found the photos, is like, no, that
Speaker 1: was carpet. Oh they redid that. Okay, never mind totally
Speaker 1: out of style. So there is the railing at the
Speaker 1: top and the whole thing is carpeted. As we're just
Speaker 1: talking about the second floor and the first floor, and
Speaker 1: the stairs and the surrounding landing at the bottom of
Speaker 1: the stairs. It's all it's wall to wall carpet and
Speaker 1: at this point, so what happens is Max is on
Speaker 1: the second floor and he's writing his razor scooter around.
Speaker 1: I know, Devin knows what these things are. Do you
Speaker 1: know the razor scooter is Joe's really sharp? Yeah, actually
Speaker 1: they are. It's a rangers of scooter is It's basically
Speaker 1: like a sheet of aluminum or a bar of aluminum,
Speaker 1: wheels on both ends and the little handle on top. Yeah. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: So he's riding one of those around on the second
Speaker 1: floor and he decided to just ride it on the
Speaker 1: top of the railing like he saw you kN or
Speaker 1: somebody like that. Dude. Well, you know, that's one of
Speaker 1: the things that we don't know is we don't know
Speaker 1: what happened because some people say, well, maybe he was
Speaker 1: writing so fast that he hit the railing and he
Speaker 1: flipped over the railing and that's how he fell down
Speaker 1: to the first typically is what. He's nine inches taller
Speaker 1: than there's a problem. Plus it's carpeted. It's hard to
Speaker 1: get going fast. On carpet, and this is this carpet
Speaker 1: in this house looked like it was pretty good pile
Speaker 1: and it's all all carpet like, the bedrooms are carpeted
Speaker 1: to everything looks like it was carpeted from the images
Speaker 1: that I found. So him being able to get up
Speaker 1: enough speed on carpet is questionable. Um, but as you said,
Speaker 1: he's a little too short to have a center of
Speaker 1: gravity to be able to push him over. People have said, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he was running down the stairs and the dog
Speaker 1: came and knocked him over, and so that gave him
Speaker 1: extra a lift, which again the same problem. That dog
Speaker 1: really would have had to give him a serious push
Speaker 1: to shove him up over the railing. That doesn't work
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, but yeah, if he was, he's six
Speaker 1: years old. Kids at age, and I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: Max was especially stupid, but kids at age do stupid stuff.
Speaker 1: A kid Yeah, sorry, go ahead, No, I mean like
Speaker 1: just trying to like, you know, I'm gonna tight rope
Speaker 1: walk on the you know, on the on the banister
Speaker 1: or something like that, or slide down it or god
Speaker 1: does what you know. How big was the dog. It
Speaker 1: was a medium sized dog. I don't remember what the
Speaker 1: dog was. I know it's a medium sized dog. But
Speaker 1: the point is, well, I was going to say one
Speaker 1: thing I know I've seen kids do on more tolerant dogs. Uh,
Speaker 1: six would be a little old for this, but maybe
Speaker 1: still is that we'll stand on them when they're like land.
Speaker 1: And then if you were like laying or you're you
Speaker 1: you were like I want to step on the dog,
Speaker 1: and you held the banister, and the dog was laying
Speaker 1: against the banister, and it got up while you were
Speaker 1: standing on it. You could totally trust give you a
Speaker 1: nice upward thrust. You are already you know, half your
Speaker 1: body probably when you're three feet right, you've got another
Speaker 1: foot because so you're send of gravity is pretty close
Speaker 1: to the top of the banister. Anyway, that would be
Speaker 1: something that I would think, I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm actually inclined to think that it's more along the
Speaker 1: lines of something like what Joe was saying is that
Speaker 1: Max was playing on the banister or trying to slide
Speaker 1: down it like evil, just trying to balance on it,
Speaker 1: or even just reaching over and screwing around and for
Speaker 1: some reason trying to get the chandelier. Maybe he thought
Speaker 1: he would try to like leap across like you see
Speaker 1: it in the movies where they grab it and swing
Speaker 1: by it and swing the other side total or I
Speaker 1: kind of like this bird, he's kind of leaning over
Speaker 1: as far as you can because he just wants to
Speaker 1: see if you can reach the chandelier. And then the
Speaker 1: dog comes up behind him just deliberately pushes him over.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's what that. Yeah, yeah, but so did the
Speaker 1: sorry did the scooter go? Why did they think he's playing?
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, the razor scooter would end up
Speaker 1: on the floor on the first floor with Max. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions some people though, some people
Speaker 1: actually say that Max was assaulted and basically thrown over
Speaker 1: the railing. And this is the deep conspiracies, the theories.
Speaker 1: Conspiracists is the word I was trying to say but
Speaker 1: apparently couldn't spit out. But they say, well, Max sustained
Speaker 1: a bunch of injuries, and those injuries were overlooked because
Speaker 1: of the injuries he sustained in the fall and and
Speaker 1: and and attemptory. I mean he didn't recover the hospital
Speaker 1: or like you know, again, it's one of those things
Speaker 1: right where like if she was trying to do CPR
Speaker 1: or even the first responder citation any kind of the
Speaker 1: rescue process, because yeah, that will break stuff. So that's
Speaker 1: the deep theory side is they're basically saying that Max
Speaker 1: was murdered. But what we do know is, as we said,
Speaker 1: he went over the railing, he fell, and in the
Speaker 1: process of his fall, he somehow took the chandelier with him.
Speaker 1: Because the chandelier would come down, he would fall from
Speaker 1: the first the second story, and he would hit the
Speaker 1: railing that goes up from the first floors stairs because
Speaker 1: remember I said, it goes up for half of the light.
Speaker 1: He fell far enough over that he hit the handrail
Speaker 1: and literally bounced off of it. He had, Yeah, he
Speaker 1: had some inertia to get all around across. I kind
Speaker 1: of feel like this, the fact that he brought the
Speaker 1: chandelier down with him kind of supports by Saria that
Speaker 1: he was actually leaping to grab the chandelier and swink
Speaker 1: from it. But why did him That's that's that's the
Speaker 1: part I can't figure out. I don't know, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know, But all I know is that in that
Speaker 1: fall he hits that and he gets a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of marks on his bath from hitting well, from hitting
Speaker 1: the railing. Those are the ones that people say, well,
Speaker 1: that's that's from the assault supposedly, But does happen is
Speaker 1: that he bounces off that second railing and he hits
Speaker 1: the first floor and he lands face first and it
Speaker 1: severs his spinal cord and it subsequently that's what basically,
Speaker 1: it's what killed him. You know, his functions. He didn't
Speaker 1: have oxygen for like twenty some minutes because he stopped
Speaker 1: breathing um. That's why he eventually was declared brain dead.
Speaker 1: And that was like one doctor who said that there
Speaker 1: was evidence that he's been suffocated prior to his injuries,
Speaker 1: or are we going to talk about that later? We can.
Speaker 1: I mean, I there's one person who says that, but
Speaker 1: I really didn't understand how they how they could figure
Speaker 1: that out. Yeah, yeah, I know, I don't get it either.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's part of That's one of the
Speaker 1: things that some of the because there are people who
Speaker 1: think that Max was murdered, of course, as he's already said, uh,
Speaker 1: and that's one of the pieces of evidence they site
Speaker 1: is that, you know, it a period he had already
Speaker 1: been smothered prior to be going over the edge smothered
Speaker 1: and then chucked over the edges, especially what it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there is there's a different pattern
Speaker 1: that presents mostly like around your face area, if you're
Speaker 1: smothered and struggling, like you're going to break a lot
Speaker 1: of capillaries and stuff like that, versus just like the
Speaker 1: instant your spinal court severed, your brain stops working, you know,
Speaker 1: everything like that, that that's not going to create those
Speaker 1: like struggle marks necessarily, although landing face first on the
Speaker 1: floor that could do that, or could masket I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, so I can see I guess why somebody
Speaker 1: would argue that they could say whether he was strangled
Speaker 1: or supplicated prior, But I don't. I think it's unreasonable
Speaker 1: to say that you could do that. I mean, it
Speaker 1: appears from everything that I've read that while it is
Speaker 1: comforting and convenient to say that it's conspiracy, I feel
Speaker 1: like it probably was just a horribly tragic accident. That's scarier.
Speaker 1: This is again one of those things right where it's
Speaker 1: scarier because it's like that could be anyone that just
Speaker 1: haven't just did a dumb thing, and and this razor
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, yeah, it's kids get killed. Actually an
Speaker 1: accidents at home all the time, not unusual. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's it's crushing and it's it's terrible.
Speaker 1: But all right, well let's keep going because um, obviously
Speaker 1: you know the family. They circle the wagon at the
Speaker 1: hospital the shock nuys. Jonah is there, his ex wife
Speaker 1: Dina is there. That's back to his mother. Also there
Speaker 1: is Dina's sister, Nina, Nina Romero Yea Dina and Nina,
Speaker 1: and does that her parents. Nina had flown in that
Speaker 1: day and during this time, it's not as if Jonah
Speaker 1: is going staying at the hospital and then coming home
Speaker 1: for the night. Now he's going to the Ronald McDonald's
Speaker 1: house that's crossed the street, shower and sleep, or if
Speaker 1: he can't get a room there, he would get a
Speaker 1: hotel just a couple of blocks away, because I think
Speaker 1: it was like a twenty to twenty five minute drive
Speaker 1: from their house to the hospital, and he didn't want
Speaker 1: to have that time barrier between him, so he's spending
Speaker 1: all of his time at the hospital. We move forward
Speaker 1: to the very next day, this is gonna be the
Speaker 1: twelfth of July, and Rebecca takes her sister, Zena to
Speaker 1: the airport. Did Rebecca go to the hospital. Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: at the hospital with everybody else. She's she's she's with everybody.
Speaker 1: It's not like she's just hiding out everywhere. I mean,
Speaker 1: she's in the mix to the airport. But she says, hey,
Speaker 1: you's been probably send your home. This is not the
Speaker 1: time or place. So she takes her sister the airport.
Speaker 1: Her sister flies out at the same day or on
Speaker 1: the same day, like with an hour or two of
Speaker 1: dropping one off. She picks up at the airport. Adam
Speaker 1: shack Night that's Jonah's brother, because he flies in usually
Speaker 1: pretty much just stay at the airport. Once from there,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that she probably you know, bellied up to
Speaker 1: you know somewhere and just hung out. And and so
Speaker 1: she gets at them, and they go to the hospital
Speaker 1: and you know, see Max and see the family and
Speaker 1: all of that good stuff. Now Adam is going to
Speaker 1: be staying at the Spreckles mansion because it's a mansion.
Speaker 1: It's big enough, it's got the space, and the way
Speaker 1: this house is laid out when you look at it
Speaker 1: from the arials is it's kind of an l shape.
Speaker 1: And on the opposite corner from that, where the two
Speaker 1: the two ends of the l meet, there's a small
Speaker 1: or small it's a relative term, but there's a guesthouse's
Speaker 1: bigger than all of our houses put together. It's like
Speaker 1: three bedroom, two bath. It's like, yeah, it's it's a
Speaker 1: huge place, but it's a guest house. And I think
Speaker 1: they have a guesthouse guesthouse there. Actually I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: probably still bigger than my house. So he's going to
Speaker 1: stay at the guesthouse. And the way this is, these
Speaker 1: two buildings are set up, they kind of make this
Speaker 1: inner courtyard, which is where a lot of our story
Speaker 1: is about to go down. But they're at the hospital.
Speaker 1: They leave the hospital and they get to the mansion
Speaker 1: somewhere around eight o'clock that night. Adam says he said
Speaker 1: good night to Rebecca, and he went to the guesthouse
Speaker 1: and he went to bed, and he didn't see her
Speaker 1: until the next morning. Now people will say that it
Speaker 1: isn't important that Rebecca had been planning a party at
Speaker 1: the house that night. The party was for her sister, Zena,
Speaker 1: her thirteen year old sister. And yeah, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: they canceled caau Zina's gone. But people say, well there
Speaker 1: was loud music, and Adam shocked, and I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard some music. And I don't know how loud
Speaker 1: loud music is, but especially in her community, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, I play my music pretty loud, especially when
Speaker 1: I'm upset about stuff or whatever. You know, you just
Speaker 1: sometimes you just gotta dance it out or I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, just like sit in a dark room and
Speaker 1: blast like really loud music and try to forget everything
Speaker 1: that's happening. Yeah, I don't think she was having a party.
Speaker 1: I don't think she was either. Next morning, so this
Speaker 1: is this is gonna be the thirteenth of July. Six am,
Speaker 1: a call is placed by Adam to one saying that
Speaker 1: there is a naked woman hanging from a balcony in
Speaker 1: the house. Of course, is Rebecca. Did he he just
Speaker 1: did her. Yeah. He just immediately said it's a naked woman,
Speaker 1: or he said it's it's I'm trying, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: describe the scenario. Rebecca was hanging from a second story
Speaker 1: balcony in that inner courtyard space, and she was naked,
Speaker 1: it's Adam calls. He then goes and grabs a table
Speaker 1: and he dragged like a lawn table, drags it out,
Speaker 1: goes and gets a knife and cuts her down. And
Speaker 1: he does some things that maybe he shouldn't have, but
Speaker 1: it's understandable in the time and the place. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I would do exactly the same thing. Yeah. He pulls
Speaker 1: the noose in the shirt wrapped around her throat away
Speaker 1: to look for a pulse. He does the same same
Speaker 1: thing to the ropes on her hands. Did he untie
Speaker 1: the ropes or just push them away? He moved them around,
Speaker 1: is the way that I've heard it describe. But I'm
Speaker 1: assuming he was pushing them apart to try and get
Speaker 1: them to find a pulse. Okay, I feel like you
Speaker 1: need to pause here because because yeah, you heard me right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: ropes around her wrists. Yeah, but she's a suicide. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so she's say she's tied up. So let me let
Speaker 1: me just talk about saying because this is the thing
Speaker 1: about the story that is the w DF moment for
Speaker 1: everybody when they read about like what what what? That
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. By the way, before you any further,
Speaker 1: you can you can't. It is on online. You can
Speaker 1: find Adam shack one call the recording of it. Have
Speaker 1: you have you guys listened to it? Yeah? I listen
Speaker 1: to it once. I don't listen to nine one one
Speaker 1: calls like as a practice. Yeah, I can't. I also
Speaker 1: watched his interview with the cops. I mean, the guy's
Speaker 1: it's kind of a weird dude. So for our listeners
Speaker 1: who can't, just like random, pull up aee. Do you
Speaker 1: gonna talk about it after you describe the scene or now,
Speaker 1: let's just keep going okay. I mean the nine one
Speaker 1: one call isn't all that pertinent. I don't feel to you, Joe, No, No,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just for me. It was kind of remarkable.
Speaker 1: He calls it. I found her. She's hanging that somebody's
Speaker 1: hanging by, you know, hung yourself. I don't know if
Speaker 1: she's a live or dead. And he said, Sarah, what
Speaker 1: is your address? He's going, uh, I don't know. And
Speaker 1: actually I can see where he might not know. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't yeah, And then he's say like, well, can you
Speaker 1: at least get an ambulus going now? And she's like, Sarah,
Speaker 1: I can't help you will tell I have your address?
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, going off, And this goes on
Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, he's like, you can hear
Speaker 1: him pupping and pupping and moving around. He's like probably
Speaker 1: running around to the front of the house and like panic,
Speaker 1: looking for male, looking for maybe the numbers on the
Speaker 1: front of the house. Whatever. It takes him several minutes
Speaker 1: to find the house number, and he could he keeps
Speaker 1: and he's occasionally say something like, can't you like send
Speaker 1: the standard ambulus now and I'll give you the number later,
Speaker 1: not sir, I have to have your address, sir, which
Speaker 1: makes it does on the one hand, but on the
Speaker 1: other hand, it's like, if he's it, I'm on Coronado Island,
Speaker 1: at least that would have given them a start. Well, no,
Speaker 1: I think he knew the street. He knew it was Coronado.
Speaker 1: It was like Oceans, you just didn't know the number.
Speaker 1: And so it's kind of frustrating. Actually gives her the number.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay now, and then she says, okay, sir,
Speaker 1: I'm transferring her to the fire department now, and so
Speaker 1: she transfers him, and then and then the next person
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, Sarah, now, can you tell me your address? Seriously?
Speaker 1: I love a bureaucracy the time, I was like, why
Speaker 1: didn't you transfer me the other you didn't need the address.
Speaker 1: I guess I must have glazed over and not have
Speaker 1: applied the importance of the humor importance show that that
Speaker 1: you did, because it's like, are you gonna learn when
Speaker 1: it wasn't that big of a deal now that you
Speaker 1: are told that, I get it. Yeah, I can see
Speaker 1: why it wouldn't listen to the whole thing because it's
Speaker 1: mostly mostly just him hupping and puffing as he's running
Speaker 1: around trying to figure out what what is addressing and
Speaker 1: panicking because he I mean, he clearly stated right. I
Speaker 1: mean it sounds like he said, like I don't know
Speaker 1: if she's alive or dead, Like he's probably like freaking
Speaker 1: out panicking, like maybe she's alive. I should be helping her,
Speaker 1: but I can't get the ambulance here until I have
Speaker 1: the g D number. And he actually he kept as cool.
Speaker 1: He wasn't screaming at her or anything. Oh god, I
Speaker 1: would have been. I wouldn't. Okay, So let's let's get
Speaker 1: back to Rebecca. Okay. So her body is hanging, like
Speaker 1: I said, from a balcony on the second story, the
Speaker 1: rope and it's it's facing into that inner courtyard and
Speaker 1: is it. Ah, there's so many different kind of balconies,
Speaker 1: Like my parents have a balcony with like would Okay,
Speaker 1: So it's it's a it's kind of like a concrete
Speaker 1: it's a platform. It's got tile on it on the top,
Speaker 1: it's probably concrete, and it's got a metal railing. Metal.
Speaker 1: It's kind of got the you know, not the particle
Speaker 1: bar brought iron workers. What I was gonna say, but
Speaker 1: iron but yeah, okay, yeah, so it's that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna it's gonna hold up the weight. So,
Speaker 1: like I said, she's hanging from the second story the
Speaker 1: rope that is used to hang Rebecca. Presumably she is
Speaker 1: the one who did this. She tied it off to
Speaker 1: the corner the leg of the bed that was in
Speaker 1: that guest bedroom that the balcony looked off of. We
Speaker 1: know that. Um she okay, so wait, no, okay, So
Speaker 1: she tied it there and then it goes up and
Speaker 1: over the railing. This is an important part. So it
Speaker 1: kind of goes up at an angle and then back
Speaker 1: straight back down. It would have to well, I mean, technically,
Speaker 1: she could have run it flat on the ground and
Speaker 1: but that would have been right. So we know though
Speaker 1: that she did it this way because when the bed
Speaker 1: itself had originally been a flat against the wall, but
Speaker 1: when responders got there, it was not. It was actually
Speaker 1: moved forward. Uh, it had been moved forward about seven
Speaker 1: and a half inches, which is nineteen centimeters, and that
Speaker 1: is presumably from the force of the body hitting the
Speaker 1: end of the rope. We know the original position of
Speaker 1: the bed because it was deeper pile. Again this house,
Speaker 1: great pile in this carpet. It left deep in the
Speaker 1: bed landed deep impression in the carpet was very easy
Speaker 1: to see where it was. And there's been recreations of this,
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the recreations. But they have put
Speaker 1: the weight of that bed at about three poundsds. She
Speaker 1: weighed a hundred pounds, and that will that will become
Speaker 1: important later on when we talk about some of the
Speaker 1: theory stuff. All right, So her body, Rebecca had a
Speaker 1: long sleeve shirt wrapped around her neck. I'll be honest here,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if the shirt was put on before
Speaker 1: or after the news after and so what happens she
Speaker 1: takes a long sleeve shirt and if you think about
Speaker 1: this from if you put the shirt behind you and
Speaker 1: you've got the sleeves coming in front of your neck.
Speaker 1: She then wrapped some back or around her neck, so
Speaker 1: she makes a kind of a sloop saies and then
Speaker 1: takes the what would be the cuff tails of that shirt,
Speaker 1: ties him in a knot, and sticks that knot in
Speaker 1: her mouth as a gay I love you describing this
Speaker 1: like it's she did it herself. Continue, No, I do it.
Speaker 1: I know, it's just he's presenting it as a suicide. People.
Speaker 1: I don't know it is, but I don't know how
Speaker 1: else to describe. No. No, I think it's prefect. Yeah, okay, sorry.
Speaker 1: Was she wearing other clothes on except for a long
Speaker 1: sleeve shirt actually a rope to a couple of pieces. Okay,
Speaker 1: so she's got the shirt on her neck and then
Speaker 1: the noose around her neck. What I always find weird
Speaker 1: is that her hair is actually underneath all of that.
Speaker 1: She's got long, you know, kind of down to the
Speaker 1: middle of her back, straight black hair, and that stands
Speaker 1: out to me. And I'm not trying to sound sexist
Speaker 1: or anything like that, but it sounds strange to me
Speaker 1: because you have a wife no, because that would pull
Speaker 1: your hair. And Rebecca's how was obviously aware of her appearance.
Speaker 1: She's pretty lady. She's well put together, she works out,
Speaker 1: she dresses to it. She knows the power of her
Speaker 1: looks and she's working it. So it seems like a
Speaker 1: weird thing that you want that. I don't think that's
Speaker 1: weird at all. That because at that point she's coming
Speaker 1: to suicide. She doesn't care about that. Okay, I'll disagree
Speaker 1: wholeheartedly on this. I agree with Steve that it's weird
Speaker 1: because I will tell you someone with long hair, I
Speaker 1: just instinctively pull my hair out things when I put
Speaker 1: something on. I don't even realize I'm doing it. Like
Speaker 1: you guys know, I was in this car accident recently,
Speaker 1: and it hurts for me to do that. But I
Speaker 1: I still like I hurt myself every time because I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm gonna oh dang it like her right,
Speaker 1: Whereas like I don't need to. It's just kind of
Speaker 1: sitting there. I'm just sitting at home. It I just
Speaker 1: very It's very instinctive for me, and it may not
Speaker 1: be for everyone, but for me, like it's just automatic.
Speaker 1: So you would think that at least one of those
Speaker 1: times she might have just automatically And this will come
Speaker 1: up later on, but it's a pretty clear to me
Speaker 1: that this stuff took a while, so she would have
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to go this is freaking uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and try and move her hair. The gag isn't uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Let's let's let's keep talking about the rest of the
Speaker 1: scene of her state of her body. Yeah, back to
Speaker 1: the body. Sorry, yeah, yeah, totally back to the body. Okay.
Speaker 1: So Rebecca's hands were bound and they were bound behind
Speaker 1: her back using a hitch style, not like a hitch
Speaker 1: or what I So, I don't know exactly what kind
Speaker 1: of not this is, Joe. Essentially, what it is you
Speaker 1: take the loop of the rope and she put it
Speaker 1: around or whoever did this, so keep doing it like that.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about it later. Put it around the wrist,
Speaker 1: the loop around the wrist, and then it is woven
Speaker 1: back and forth from wrist to risk several times, like
Speaker 1: making eight or nine loops back and forth. And then
Speaker 1: the slack that's between the wrists is that the tail
Speaker 1: of the two tails of the rope are used to
Speaker 1: tie that clothe it. Sorry, are you laughing at me
Speaker 1: doing this? Now? I'm mostly laughing at trying to imagine
Speaker 1: doing that to myself. Okay, Well even crazier is um,
Speaker 1: she did this, and the official accounting is that she
Speaker 1: did this while her hands were in front of her
Speaker 1: and one of the loops, I think it's the left
Speaker 1: hand loop was loose enough, left loose enough that she
Speaker 1: could slide her hand out of it and then she
Speaker 1: would stick it behind her back and slide that hand
Speaker 1: back through those loops. Well you could, I mean, you
Speaker 1: could do it in front of a few and then
Speaker 1: just I mean, if your legs weren't tied, you could
Speaker 1: but then step through your arms. Yeah, like, sit down.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's a baby. And we'll talk about the
Speaker 1: sea quence of how it's believed that she did this,
Speaker 1: because the thing is, her legs were also abound, her
Speaker 1: ankles were bound in much the same way. Because when
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about hanging myself, yeah you want to hang yourself?
Speaker 1: Yeah you want to? Yeah, I mean this is like,
Speaker 1: this is crazy, how much it is. The rope that
Speaker 1: is used, it's a red nylon rope. It's it's actually
Speaker 1: a boat toe rope. You know. The thing that you
Speaker 1: see people on the lag pulling their kids around on
Speaker 1: the inflatable doughnut or dinosaur whatever. That's that really crappy
Speaker 1: plastic rope, which I because you can't, but it's it's well,
Speaker 1: you know that, I don't know if apparently you can,
Speaker 1: because it was pretty well in this case you can,
Speaker 1: but it's like it's just harder, a lot harder to
Speaker 1: do a good knot in that rope. And yeah, so
Speaker 1: hands bound, feet bound, gagg in mouth hanging off the balcony.
Speaker 1: There is also in the bedroom that this all took
Speaker 1: place from, or in all of the tying ups, there
Speaker 1: was a strange note painted on the door in black paint.
Speaker 1: It's done in block letters, which the door that came
Speaker 1: into the bedroom from the rest of the house. And
Speaker 1: it was on the outside or inside of the door.
Speaker 1: I think it's on the inside, Yes, I believe it was,
Speaker 1: so the bedroom side of the door. Um, sorry, our
Speaker 1: listeners can't see the fun faces I'm making right now.
Speaker 1: This is why we've got to do live shows more often. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there we go. So the note says she saved him,
Speaker 1: can you save her? Which is cryptic and I don't
Speaker 1: even know if it's supposed to mean anything. What people
Speaker 1: will point to is weird is that this was a
Speaker 1: frame and panel door, you know, so it's got multiple
Speaker 1: smaller panels in it, and this was written on one
Speaker 1: of the upper panels of the door. But Rebecca being
Speaker 1: five three, that means that she would have had to
Speaker 1: youn think, if somebody's gonna paint a note, you would
Speaker 1: just reach forward and do it. But to do it
Speaker 1: on that panel, she would have had to reach up
Speaker 1: to head height or higher to have done that. So
Speaker 1: that is noted as kind of an odd place. I
Speaker 1: don't know why there's it's just it's, yeah, okay, there's
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of this stuff that I just got.
Speaker 1: I don't know how it's why. So aside from the note, um,
Speaker 1: there's the state of her body, there's also some things.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of cuts and abrasions. There are four
Speaker 1: marks on the right side of her head, between her
Speaker 1: ear and the top of her head, and they kind
Speaker 1: of almost make a square pattern, you know, the four points. Well,
Speaker 1: the official accounting is that that happened when she went
Speaker 1: over she hit the railing, but there's other things. There's
Speaker 1: some abrasions on her stomach. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 1: There's some abrasions on her stomach. And there's a series
Speaker 1: of wounds and abrasions down her back, running from her
Speaker 1: neck all the way to her butt. How are those explained?
Speaker 1: Those aren't by anybody but me that I have ever read.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about them when we get into theories. Okay,
Speaker 1: we got a couple of the things that are in
Speaker 1: the condition of the body, and then we'll we'll be
Speaker 1: moving on. There is some dirt on her feet, now,
Speaker 1: I will tell you right now that when you read
Speaker 1: about the story online, you will see it called mud. Okay.
Speaker 1: According to the autopsy, which is completely available on the internet,
Speaker 1: it says that it was a quote moderate amount of
Speaker 1: gray brown dirt on the base of the feet, mostly
Speaker 1: around the basis of the great toes, the great toes toes.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start calling them that they're great, the awesome.
Speaker 1: The point is is that it's it's dirt on her feet,
Speaker 1: on the bottom of her Yes, it's not as some
Speaker 1: of these places will make it out to be, that
Speaker 1: she had great wads of mud. And then then right, well,
Speaker 1: why isn't there no mud somewhere else and well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a dirty balcony, by the way, I'm going
Speaker 1: to give that away now. Part of it could come
Speaker 1: from the bal I mean. Also when Adam cut her down,
Speaker 1: presumably didn't he didn't just drop her face first on
Speaker 1: the ground. Presumably he set her on the and it
Speaker 1: was a lawn first, and you know, I mean, so
Speaker 1: it might have come from that. Also, you know, like,
Speaker 1: I'm a barefoot kid and your feet are nasty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wish you'd quit playing with him. I'm kidding, I
Speaker 1: can't stop on stop, Okay. Other things that are noted.
Speaker 1: Since we've talked about the autopsy, let's talk about it
Speaker 1: a little more. Other things that are noted is the
Speaker 1: black paint on her body. Autopsy says there's a small
Speaker 1: bit of it on her face, on a couple of
Speaker 1: her fingers on her right hand. There's also some on
Speaker 1: her left breast above the nipple, and some on the
Speaker 1: nipple of her right breast. So it appears that she
Speaker 1: did the painting because she's got the paint on her
Speaker 1: and they're like drips of paint on her. What it's
Speaker 1: on it? Like, Yeah, it's it's just small amounts, a
Speaker 1: little painting. Apparently, which is weird. Um okay uh. The
Speaker 1: investigators eventually they put Rebecca's death her time of death
Speaker 1: at about three o'clock in the morning, which means that
Speaker 1: by the time that Adam found her, she had been
Speaker 1: dead for almost four hours, so she was quite long gone.
Speaker 1: There's you know, you think about, Okay, well, if there's
Speaker 1: so much weird stuff and there's so many things, you know,
Speaker 1: why has this homicide not been found figured out? And
Speaker 1: it's because, of course the officials report of the uh
Speaker 1: conclusion that's sort I'm looking for. The conclusion from the
Speaker 1: San Diego Police Department, as we've been talking about this
Speaker 1: whole time, was that she committed suicide and she was
Speaker 1: not killed by anybody else, but that she took her
Speaker 1: own life. I'm so stoked to hear the official story
Speaker 1: on this because I know, I know, and for our
Speaker 1: listeners right now, I know that you're frustrated, but please
Speaker 1: don't throw down your phone because if you don't have interests,
Speaker 1: they're expensive to replace. Instead, waited out, We're gonna go
Speaker 1: through all of this and we're gonna uncover it in theories. Okay,
Speaker 1: but we'll do that in just a minute. First, let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break. Hey, gang, there's a new Tom
Speaker 1: Cruise movie coming out on it Meet Tom Cruise. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, you might just get your chance. But Tom's
Speaker 1: going to reunite with his Edge of Tomorrow director Doug
Speaker 1: Lyman in a movie called American Maid, which is based
Speaker 1: on the outrageous true story of Barry Steal, who was
Speaker 1: a hustler and a an airline pilot who was recruited
Speaker 1: by the CIA to run one of the biggest covert
Speaker 1: operations in the US history. Barry Steals was, as I said,
Speaker 1: was a pilot, decided he wanted a little more adventure
Speaker 1: and money in his life, and so he started smuggling
Speaker 1: drugs for a South American cartel. He made some money,
Speaker 1: and boy did you get excitement. Plus rumor has it
Speaker 1: Barry Seals was, as I mentioned before, recruited by the
Speaker 1: sage performed certain covert tasks, the eddy being I guess,
Speaker 1: WI fi all the way to South America with an
Speaker 1: empty plane, right, why not stuff some guns in there?
Speaker 1: Sounds reasonable to me? And as you can imagine, various
Speaker 1: careers a smuggler took him on more than a few
Speaker 1: outrageous adventures and he made some interesting friends, like say,
Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar. What could go wrong there? So American made
Speaker 1: directed by Doug live and starring Tom Cruise, is in
Speaker 1: theater September twenty nine. So it gets you to New
Speaker 1: York theater and starts standing in line. Now it's definitely
Speaker 1: not top Gun two and we're back, okay, So let's
Speaker 1: jump into the theories. Theory number one. There's really only
Speaker 1: two theories here. There might be a third one you
Speaker 1: never know that is true, but in my stuff here,
Speaker 1: I've only got two because it really could only find too. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's really only two. Okay. So theory number one is
Speaker 1: that indeed Rebecca's a how committed suicide and that's just
Speaker 1: what it is. So let's walk through what it is,
Speaker 1: what the details from the official accounting all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff is. Deevin doesn't like this so well, I
Speaker 1: once I hear it, maybe I will. So here's the
Speaker 1: the narrative of how this whole thing went down. From
Speaker 1: the time that Rebecca entered the bedroom. According to the cops,
Speaker 1: she goes to the guest room, she gets naked, and
Speaker 1: she takes the paints, which, by the way, I received
Speaker 1: for the paint was found in her car, so she
Speaker 1: did purchase it. And by the way she did she
Speaker 1: was a painter. I mean, she wasn't artist, and you
Speaker 1: know that. So the handwriting is an issue because if
Speaker 1: she signs her paintings, they say it should look to
Speaker 1: say but anyway, I don't agree with that. But she
Speaker 1: gets into the room, she gets naked, she starts doing
Speaker 1: some painting, which is a cryptic message on the door.
Speaker 1: She then ties the rope to the bed frame and
Speaker 1: makes the noose. She then ties her feet so she
Speaker 1: sits in a chair to do this presumably, and ties
Speaker 1: her feet up, and then she puts the noose in
Speaker 1: the shirt around her neck. Then she takes and ties
Speaker 1: the rope around her hands, slips that one hand out
Speaker 1: and puts her hands behind her back and slips it
Speaker 1: into the loops again. And then when she's sufficiently restrained
Speaker 1: um which by the way, they say, she would have
Speaker 1: done so that she could stop herself from fight, from
Speaker 1: having that automatic reaction of saving herself change her mind. Right,
Speaker 1: she couldn't grab the rope or kick or try and
Speaker 1: stop it. That's why she would bind herself, which people
Speaker 1: do do. It's not heard of, but not to this level,
Speaker 1: But then, according to the cops, she then hopped out
Speaker 1: to the balcony, and once she was at the balcony,
Speaker 1: she then leaned over the railing until her center of
Speaker 1: gravity was high enough that she could literally fall over
Speaker 1: the railing, and then she fell to her death. So
Speaker 1: she went head head over heels. Maybe maybe that's They
Speaker 1: don't know exactly how she went down. Did she go
Speaker 1: down head first? Did she roll and go sideways down?
Speaker 1: Did she maybe somehow climb up and jump feet first?
Speaker 1: Which did Sorry, I'm not sure exactly how much of
Speaker 1: an athlete she was. I mean, some some people, very
Speaker 1: few could actually probably leap from a standing position, leap
Speaker 1: up and stand on top of the rail, and then
Speaker 1: she would being tied together. You couldn't had excellent physical
Speaker 1: I mean, you see this, if you see some of
Speaker 1: the pictures this woman, there's some photos of her, she's
Speaker 1: kind of ripped that well. I just I don't think
Speaker 1: there's anybody who could do that. I mean, maybe somebody
Speaker 1: proved me wrong. Fine, send me a video of you
Speaker 1: doing this all restrained and everything. You know, I don't
Speaker 1: think that she went over feet first, and and yes
Speaker 1: it does. It sounds crazy. And it feels crazy, but
Speaker 1: again it's not crazy because of the fact that she's bound, because,
Speaker 1: like we said, people have done that before. But the
Speaker 1: cops to to firm up their case, they put out
Speaker 1: a video showing how Rebecca could have tied herself up
Speaker 1: and done all of this. A TV station does the
Speaker 1: same thing, and I actually I preferred the TV station
Speaker 1: footage because it's just the lady was actually she wasn't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't. It wasn't now, but but it's just you
Speaker 1: could see, I mean, the police video, it was obvious
Speaker 1: that the person who was doing it had rehearsed it
Speaker 1: several times. The TV station footage this gal I don't
Speaker 1: think she had rehearsed it several times, so so to
Speaker 1: me it felt like maybe more accurate because it took
Speaker 1: her about thirty minutes to do it all, from writing
Speaker 1: the note in paint to the and making the news
Speaker 1: and making the gag for her mouth and tying her
Speaker 1: legs and tying her hands and getting over the railing.
Speaker 1: There was some time. And that gives to you know,
Speaker 1: that's a lot of time because she died at three
Speaker 1: am and she did all this. I mean, she started
Speaker 1: at two or two thirty in the morning. That gave
Speaker 1: her a lot of time to think about it. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of time to back out and just say,
Speaker 1: you know what this is maybe not what I should
Speaker 1: be doing, that that should well, that's it. That shows
Speaker 1: determination and commitment to the act um. Now. They also
Speaker 1: we talked about Max. The police report also says that,
Speaker 1: you know, her mental state was one of she's in
Speaker 1: upset because Max was hurt under her watch. She said, well,
Speaker 1: at this time, she doesn't know that he's you know,
Speaker 1: Max is still alive. She supposedly had gotten a voice smell,
Speaker 1: saying that the doctors didn't think he was gonna make it.
Speaker 1: But he's still alive at this point. But he's hurt
Speaker 1: under her watch. And there's some conjecture of what the
Speaker 1: hell she was doing at the time of the accident,
Speaker 1: because she says, well, I was in the bathroom. We
Speaker 1: don't know if that's really what she was doing. We
Speaker 1: don't know though. Frankly, you know, you can't watch a kid,
Speaker 1: you know, I really so. I don't think it's suspicious
Speaker 1: that the kid was out of her sight. I would
Speaker 1: I would not disagree with that at all. Uh Oh,
Speaker 1: here's the other things that that they say for her
Speaker 1: mental state. Nina God, it was Nina the sister. Dina's
Speaker 1: sister said that she had sent Rebecca a text message
Speaker 1: saying that she wanted to come by and talk that
Speaker 1: night about Max. She sent her that message at like
Speaker 1: nine thirty or nine forty and showed up at the
Speaker 1: house at ten o'clock. She never talked to Rebecca because
Speaker 1: Rebecca never answered the door. She ducked her, She dodged
Speaker 1: her entirely. And Nina freely admits that she went to
Speaker 1: the house, so she's not saying that didn't happen. She
Speaker 1: totally says I went there. As we talked about, there
Speaker 1: was also that voicemail that said that when the voicemail
Speaker 1: was deleted from Rebecca's phone and the cops didn't think
Speaker 1: fast enough or to whoever it was to say, please
Speaker 1: retrieve that deleted voicemail. So we don't know exactly what
Speaker 1: was said on it, but Jonahs has said it was him,
Speaker 1: and he said that he's the gist of it was.
Speaker 1: He just said the doctors didn't think that Max was
Speaker 1: going to make it. Yeah, but he didn't say said
Speaker 1: anything else, like you know, pack your stuff and get
Speaker 1: the hell out of my house, right or you better
Speaker 1: not be there or I'll kill you, know, like none
Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. He doesn't say he said
Speaker 1: anything like it. Do we know what time that call
Speaker 1: was placed? Oh? We do, and it well, the voicemail
Speaker 1: was it was checked it like God, I want to
Speaker 1: say like eleven thirty, maybe twelve thirty somewhere, and that
Speaker 1: when I don't have it here in my notes, I
Speaker 1: know it was somewhere in the later hours of the evening.
Speaker 1: I think. Um. Now, her family they don't believe that
Speaker 1: it's suicide because you know, I mean, we see this
Speaker 1: all the time. Families don't want to think that their
Speaker 1: loved one did that. Well, and admittedly it does look
Speaker 1: a little suspicious, I mean yeah, although it's and it's
Speaker 1: also possible besides feeling guilt or just feeling like kind
Speaker 1: of bad about him being injured, it might be that
Speaker 1: she might have had a hand in injuring him too.
Speaker 1: I mean, she might have actually done something. She might
Speaker 1: have been screwing around with him and he fell, or
Speaker 1: it might have been screwing around, or maybe she lost
Speaker 1: her temper and just threw him up with the railing
Speaker 1: who knows uh, and then she suddenly realized afterwards that
Speaker 1: you know, I'm probably gonna wind up getting busted for this.
Speaker 1: She's on the hook. Yeah, no, that's true. Um okay,
Speaker 1: So what else? What else do we have here that
Speaker 1: is pointed to? Well, there's the lack of d n
Speaker 1: A that the police point to the fact that nobody
Speaker 1: else's DNA is on is at the scene. He can't
Speaker 1: find anybody's DNA, although I will point out nobody else's
Speaker 1: DNA was found on anything, including the rope that Adam
Speaker 1: shack Ny grabbed to cut her down, and the rope
Speaker 1: and the gag that he moved to look for a pulse.
Speaker 1: And that's important because not every time you touch something
Speaker 1: do you leave DNA behind something. Even think, but did
Speaker 1: he grab the rope when he cut her down? He
Speaker 1: would have had to, not necessarily, even if she's hanging
Speaker 1: out and putting intention on it. I would think he
Speaker 1: would put one hand around her waist so she wouldn't
Speaker 1: fall down, and then reach up with the other one
Speaker 1: to cut the rope. I would think, as hard as
Speaker 1: those ropes are, that you would have to grab the rope.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a nylon rope, and it's a pretty
Speaker 1: thick one. I it seemed to me like that would
Speaker 1: be a rope that you couldn't just saw at. And
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're after speed, you're gonna grab it
Speaker 1: so you can go through as fast as possible. But
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. You may be right, Joe,
Speaker 1: maybe he did. But Okay, so if he put an
Speaker 1: arm around her waist to hold, there's still there's no
Speaker 1: DNA there either, so that would have been on her body.
Speaker 1: They checked her body for d N A L said,
Speaker 1: one would perceive they did, but there's a bunch of
Speaker 1: stuff that they didn't check. Maybe their test kit was
Speaker 1: just like kind of like on the frit set. Well,
Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of things that they didn't check.
Speaker 1: There's a whole slew of things that were in that
Speaker 1: room with that she uh that she the balcony is
Speaker 1: on that guest bedroom. Trying to think of an elegant
Speaker 1: way to say that there wasn't one. Okay, but let
Speaker 1: me give you a list of just a short list.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're not gonna read through the whole laundry list,
Speaker 1: but there are two knives that were in that room.
Speaker 1: Both of those were used to cut the rope. And
Speaker 1: by the way, it was that rope was one continuous
Speaker 1: piece of rope that she or whoever did this had
Speaker 1: cut into three individual legs. All that crappy land, it
Speaker 1: was all one giant long toe rope. It was the
Speaker 1: same rope the whole way. That's kind that's got the
Speaker 1: comes from the factory with a loop already break up
Speaker 1: and then sealed in with some kind of you know,
Speaker 1: adhesive rubbery thing on it to keep it from sliding around.
Speaker 1: Um okay. So also in that room there is a
Speaker 1: pair of black gloves and a single rubber glove. Some
Speaker 1: people say that the cops didn't test that stuff. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's true. Rebecca's cell phone is there,
Speaker 1: the paint and the paintbrush. There's a couple of cameras,
Speaker 1: her clothes. There's a clump of hair with some blood
Speaker 1: on it found in the bathroom of that suspicions. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: and I mean that that is a little weird. Then
Speaker 1: the police say they that that was menstrual blood. Well
Speaker 1: not if it had hair on it. See I got okay,
Speaker 1: Now this is this is a good point. I presumed
Speaker 1: I understood what that meant as it was a load
Speaker 1: of hair that had been pulled from the scalp that
Speaker 1: had blood on it. But you might have the right idea.
Speaker 1: It might be hair that like, you know, hair falls
Speaker 1: out all the time, so there's some hair and also
Speaker 1: some blood. I don't know where it was just into. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if it was in like the drain, well the you know,
Speaker 1: the hair, everything goes into the drain. Yeah, if you're
Speaker 1: looking at my drain now you'll probably find about that
Speaker 1: out of hair. And now you don't want to believe me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not look at that. Um, So I don't know. I
Speaker 1: mean some of the stuff that'll makes sense if this
Speaker 1: is a suicide. Some of these things kind of makes sense. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the paintbrush. If she's writing the message her
Speaker 1: cell phone would make sense because she's checking her phone camera.
Speaker 1: Maybe if she was like looking at photos that were
Speaker 1: saved on it, what were on what was on the cameras.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you that. Great, I don't know. Great, Um,
Speaker 1: that seems like it would be important. Yeah, I mean maybe,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I keep just kind of circling back now
Speaker 1: that I've Joe's brought up the my misconception of possibly
Speaker 1: how the blood was there there is. I think that
Speaker 1: she was on her mentoral cycle at the time, so
Speaker 1: that might also explain some of that. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's if that's completely true. I know in the
Speaker 1: autopsy they identified blood in uh in in her vagina
Speaker 1: and there was no sexual assault. So that's why I'm
Speaker 1: suddenly thinking maybe that's where that came from. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: got side railed by that. Well you're looking at me
Speaker 1: with a weird face. I just think they can tell.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's fine, Okay, okay, okay, Well let's let's
Speaker 1: do this. Let's go to the last thing that is
Speaker 1: brought up in the suicide theory, which is the marks
Speaker 1: on her body. So there's the marks on her head,
Speaker 1: back and the back of her legs. And the police,
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, they believe the wounds on her
Speaker 1: head are caused from rolling over the railing and banging
Speaker 1: into it and the balcony on her way down. And
Speaker 1: I could see that if she went maybe head first,
Speaker 1: and maybe more so if she rolled so her body
Speaker 1: was horizontal, because then of course she would she would
Speaker 1: start to just tumble with you know, no control whatsoever,
Speaker 1: and that could be how she collided with something and
Speaker 1: that caused those went down. You bang into something, you
Speaker 1: bang it to the edge of the balcony, which is
Speaker 1: concrete um. The rolling off the balcony also explains some
Speaker 1: marks on her neck because there was a secondary review
Speaker 1: of everything and it indicated that there were marks on
Speaker 1: her neck that were more consistent with a strangulation than
Speaker 1: a death by hanging because the location of those. So
Speaker 1: if you think about where your collar bone is in
Speaker 1: that area, that's more likely when somebody's putting their hands
Speaker 1: across your throat. For a guy, that's where your Adam's
Speaker 1: apple kind of is. That's where the strangulation is going
Speaker 1: to happen, whereas with a news it's going to be
Speaker 1: more up around your chin because the rope is going
Speaker 1: to be pulled up and taught. I could see. I
Speaker 1: don't think that she was actually strangled. I think that
Speaker 1: if she rolled over, or more importantly, if she went
Speaker 1: over head first, that means that when she hit the
Speaker 1: end of the rope, she was traveling head first and
Speaker 1: that would cause the rope to pop tout around that
Speaker 1: collar bone area before her body flipped degrees inverted. I
Speaker 1: think that might explain some of that, but there's no
Speaker 1: official consensus of why the hell she has these extra
Speaker 1: would appear to be strangulation marks on her neck. They
Speaker 1: never confirmed exactly which way she went down. It seems
Speaker 1: like that one like pop. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 1: got it's pretty significant pop against a collar bone, But
Speaker 1: it does seem like it would be way less pronounced
Speaker 1: than somebody looking at it saying it looks like strangulation marks.
Speaker 1: But one of the one of the bones in her
Speaker 1: throat was broken down in that area. I can't remember what. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's it's kind of a wishbone shaped bone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it always gets broken when you get strangled, strangles
Speaker 1: somebody that gets but when you hang yourself, I assume
Speaker 1: it gets broken. Also, I think, well, I don't think
Speaker 1: that particular set would, because maybe the set up higher would.
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm not forensics and that's not my gig.
Speaker 1: But this is just what I can tell um. The
Speaker 1: other thing that people point to as weird and I
Speaker 1: don't think actually are that weird are the wounds on
Speaker 1: her back and her her from her neck to her butt. Okay, again,
Speaker 1: there's no delicate way to say this, so I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna say this, if when she went down and she
Speaker 1: hit the end of the rope, she's gonna do so
Speaker 1: with some force, and her body is going to be
Speaker 1: swinging around. Okay, Well, if you look at the photos
Speaker 1: of the balcony and you look at where what's under
Speaker 1: it and where she is in relation to that, you'll
Speaker 1: see that on the left there's some normal, big, woody
Speaker 1: green shrub that's about six plus feet tall, and on
Speaker 1: the right there's this crazy, weird cactus thing, And if
Speaker 1: her body is swinging around, she's going to be scraping
Speaker 1: into those things. The cactus would explain there's these series
Speaker 1: of parallel marks or scrapes on her, which I kind
Speaker 1: of think would account for that. There's no official accounting
Speaker 1: of how she got these wounds on her back, but
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the scene and just going that part
Speaker 1: seems kind of explanatory to be at a certain point,
Speaker 1: you probably really can't come up with a good scientific
Speaker 1: theory as to how every single mark got there. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just about impossible. Yeah, even though on c s
Speaker 1: I they do it, but yeah, probably not well. On
Speaker 1: c s I they also take care of the crime
Speaker 1: scene and record time, which is not what happened in
Speaker 1: this case. Rebecca's body was left laying on the lawn
Speaker 1: for something like thirteen hours uncovered medical examiner's report, and
Speaker 1: it was like he didn't get there until like that evening,
Speaker 1: like about SIXXCI, like twelve hours later or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they just left her in the sun. They didn't
Speaker 1: cover up. There's all kinds of photos from the helicopters
Speaker 1: that were circling. Some jerkquad neighbor was allowing people with
Speaker 1: telephoto lenses to come up to his second floor balcony
Speaker 1: because they could see into that courtyard area and take photos.
Speaker 1: Like the police didn't do a very good job with
Speaker 1: with that angle of things. That definitely they typically cover
Speaker 1: the body. That's a little weird. They Yeah, usually you
Speaker 1: show some respect for dead people, but maybe not in
Speaker 1: rich neighborhoods. Yeah. Maybe that's all I have for the
Speaker 1: suicide theory. So that means now we're going to go
Speaker 1: into the it was murder theory. Murder, Yeah, there's some
Speaker 1: people more than more than one. So the people who
Speaker 1: one of the main proponents of it was not suicide,
Speaker 1: it was actually murder. Is Rebecca's family um, and they have.
Speaker 1: They've made that statement publicly and eventually they would make
Speaker 1: that statement legally. Yeah, they file the suit against the
Speaker 1: shack Knight family. So, um, they they said the shack
Speaker 1: Knight family is involved. So they file suit against Nina,
Speaker 1: Dina and Adam shack Knui. So Nina or Dina shack Knight,
Speaker 1: Nina Romero and then Adam shack Knuy. I'll tell you
Speaker 1: now that lawsuit has fallen apart because the footage has
Speaker 1: been brought up that shows that those ladies were somewhere
Speaker 1: else at that during that night. Yeah, but I think
Speaker 1: it's been modified. I think it's still going and I'm
Speaker 1: going against Adam, right. I believe it's been modified so
Speaker 1: that it is now only Adam. And I'm curious to
Speaker 1: find out how they change their theory because there's some
Speaker 1: things we'll talk about in here of how the ladies
Speaker 1: were involved. They all participated in this conspiracy, correct, And
Speaker 1: I'm I'm curious to see how it's gonna gonna change. Okay,
Speaker 1: So now the does how family, Like I said, so
Speaker 1: they're doing all of this. They say that there is
Speaker 1: no way that Rebecca could have killed herself because she
Speaker 1: was a Christian, and she knew that if she committed suicide,
Speaker 1: she could not actually get into heaven. They also say
Speaker 1: that the fact that she decided to leave this world
Speaker 1: in her birthday suit doesn't make any sense. That's not
Speaker 1: like her. They say, the handwriting on the door where
Speaker 1: that weird message was painted doesn't match her handwriting. And
Speaker 1: as we talked about before, she did paintings and would
Speaker 1: sign her name, and the handwriting was not the same
Speaker 1: at all that she signed her name and like one
Speaker 1: inch brush, no sign her name in like six inch
Speaker 1: tall like letters or anything like. No. I have a
Speaker 1: real issue with that handwriting analysis. But hey, there's now
Speaker 1: there is. So the whole birthday suit thing, the whole
Speaker 1: being naked thing from the murder conspiracy people have put
Speaker 1: that out there is saying that, you know, she was
Speaker 1: kind of a modest person to a degree, and she
Speaker 1: wouldn't want her body seemed like that, And so the
Speaker 1: fact that somebody did this to her and made sure
Speaker 1: she was naked is yet another way to shame or
Speaker 1: humiliate Rebecca. I don't know about that, but she's trying
Speaker 1: to make it look like a suicide. And if being
Speaker 1: naked is kind of a kind of a red flag. Yeah,
Speaker 1: then it doesn't really make a lot of sense if
Speaker 1: you murdered her to make it look like and making
Speaker 1: it you're making it look like a suicide. To strip
Speaker 1: her naked, well really make total sense unless you're using it.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, unless it's out of like extreme
Speaker 1: anger and knowing that it would shame her even more
Speaker 1: to be found naked, expose her. But number one, the
Speaker 1: whole world. But number one, she's dead. You can't care.
Speaker 1: Number Two, you want to murder her, yes, but at
Speaker 1: the same time, another huge priority is not to But
Speaker 1: you're you're smearing her name. Gonna say, I don't think
Speaker 1: they like murdering her, so she's not so she doesn't care.
Speaker 1: I don't think that comes in when there's like a
Speaker 1: revenge murder and you know what I mean, maybe not,
Speaker 1: but I mean still, I mean, I mean, honestly, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so like you're doing a revenge killing that person that died,
Speaker 1: doesn't care that that person lives or not. Do you
Speaker 1: know what what I mean? I suppose that's true. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of rational but I still any
Speaker 1: of it, there's not a rationale, none of its rational yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so let's let's keep moving on. Murdering people is not rational, kids,
Speaker 1: sometimes it is. No, let's keep moving on. So we
Speaker 1: talked about earlier in the suicide theory the fact that
Speaker 1: there was some re enactments done. Yeah, so the TV
Speaker 1: station that did the re enact but they actually did
Speaker 1: their their homework and they found out what kind of
Speaker 1: bet it was, and where it was made, what its
Speaker 1: weight was, what they expected the weight of the mattress
Speaker 1: to be. The tough part was actually finally the volunteer
Speaker 1: to put the rope around her neck and jump off
Speaker 1: the balcon well, and not surprisingly, nobody actually volunteered for that. Well.
Speaker 1: They Yeah, they found a punching bag who was happy
Speaker 1: to stand in. But the point is they got a bed,
Speaker 1: they got a balcony. There was a house that was
Speaker 1: right nearby, so the circumstances were similar, with the pile
Speaker 1: on the rug the same. No thank you for taking
Speaker 1: stealing that thunder No, okay, So here's the deal is
Speaker 1: that this guy's house everything seems the same, and the
Speaker 1: cops are like, well, you can't recreate exactly, so your
Speaker 1: recarnation is flawed. And I don't disagree because as Devin
Speaker 1: pointed out, there's a problem with the carpeting in that
Speaker 1: house if you look at it. When they do this,
Speaker 1: when they take a hundred pound punching bag with three
Speaker 1: hundred pounds of weight on the bed and they roll
Speaker 1: it off the balcony, that bed moves twenty one or
Speaker 1: twenty inches, which is fifty and there are three times
Speaker 1: as far. Yeah, but there was carpeting on floor. Yes,
Speaker 1: there was carpeting on the floor. Looks like commercial grade carpet.
Speaker 1: It's a carpet. It's it's a real I mean, it's
Speaker 1: almost like the carpet where we've gotten this room right here.
Speaker 1: It's very thin, it's very low pile. It's not going
Speaker 1: to resist it. And they kept upping the weight on
Speaker 1: the bed in an attempt to hold the bed steady,
Speaker 1: and they could never get it to stay anywhere near
Speaker 1: the numbers that were recorded in the Spreckles Mansion as
Speaker 1: what they were doing. So they really should have selected
Speaker 1: a different carpet to do their their experiment on. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would. I would say that that's a that's a
Speaker 1: big problem. I mean, I would say it's a problem.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't necessarily think it accounts for the
Speaker 1: bed moving like three times as much in well, okay,
Speaker 1: so if you if you think about it, though, that
Speaker 1: that leg is firmly embedded in the rug, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean you picked up furniture after it has been
Speaker 1: sent there for a year. Sometimes it's pain to get
Speaker 1: it started, and so that's the resistance. So people saying
Speaker 1: that that combined with all of the extra weight, which
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the extra weight in a moment, they're saying,
Speaker 1: that's why this is murdered, because that bed should have
Speaker 1: moved so much farther based on this recreation. I I
Speaker 1: don't know, but but also the bed didn't move. I
Speaker 1: think that. I think what happened is mostly the bed
Speaker 1: state that stayed. But the basically the footboard, the right hat,
Speaker 1: the right side of it, you're sitting on the bed,
Speaker 1: the right would be the right side popped off the
Speaker 1: frame and came forward about seven a half inches. That's
Speaker 1: what I understand. I don't think the frame actually came apart.
Speaker 1: I think the bed the bed twisted so it turned
Speaker 1: from a rectangle into a parallelogram. That's the kind of thing. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's perfect. I was that's the word I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been able to come up with my math terms are
Speaker 1: not that good. Well, I don't know. I still think, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well here's the difference. Is too big totally? It is.
Speaker 1: It is too big, and they're the original the original
Speaker 1: lawsuit against Nina Dina and Adam said. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: like saying at that said that the ladies were sitting
Speaker 1: on the bed while Adam tossed her over the railing.
Speaker 1: You know, that's the thing about these entitled rich women
Speaker 1: and just sit there and well he's doing all the
Speaker 1: heavy left, you know, and I'm saying I hate people
Speaker 1: like that. Well, that's so that's why the it was important.
Speaker 1: I think that they kept adding so much weight, and
Speaker 1: then we find out the ladies weren't there, So that
Speaker 1: kind of debunks that part of it. But there's some
Speaker 1: other things about Rebecca's body that raises questions. One of
Speaker 1: them is the tape residue, because there is there is
Speaker 1: tape residue found by the medical examiners on her leg
Speaker 1: or on one of her legs, and I believe it
Speaker 1: was on the calf, on the back of a calf.
Speaker 1: Nobody knows where that tape residue came from. People have said, well,
Speaker 1: maybe she decided she was gonna duct tape herself first
Speaker 1: and then decided against that. But if that's the case,
Speaker 1: where's the rule of duct tape and where's the tape
Speaker 1: that she decided to cast off and not use? So
Speaker 1: that doesn't hold up. I actually kind of wonder if
Speaker 1: when somebody else is also There's also been theories that, well,
Speaker 1: maybe she had a band aid on for several days
Speaker 1: and the adhesive was left behind. But if that was
Speaker 1: the case, there was no wound noted underneath that, so
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense. I actually know. I mean sometimes
Speaker 1: I've actually put band aids on my feet, Like if
Speaker 1: I got a new pair of shoes I haven't been
Speaker 1: broken in yet, I'll put a band aid on the
Speaker 1: back of my heel to stop it from digging into
Speaker 1: the back of my foot. Well, but this is on
Speaker 1: the back of her leg. But I actually wonder is
Speaker 1: that you know she was she was an athlete, and
Speaker 1: it's not uncommon for people to tape themselves when they're
Speaker 1: exercising too. If you know, if you've pulled a muscle
Speaker 1: and you've hurt yourself so that you can't move too far,
Speaker 1: and therefore re injure yourself. And I almost wonder if
Speaker 1: she's done that. I mean, that stuff is huge these days,
Speaker 1: that the colored atchy tape that people are putting on
Speaker 1: themselves all the time, and you can just do that
Speaker 1: with basic medical tape. And maybe that's what it was.
Speaker 1: But this is a guess on my part. We have
Speaker 1: no idea where the whole tape thing comes from. And
Speaker 1: it was on the back of her leg. It was
Speaker 1: on her leg, and I believe it was on the
Speaker 1: back of her leg. I might be wrong, but I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure it was on the back of her her calf.
Speaker 1: And just one like that, right, yeah, just one of them.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what to make of that. Possibly
Speaker 1: most likely entirely unrelated. It probably is. Let's so let's
Speaker 1: keep going in the murder theory. We're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: the balcony that she went over. Apparently the maid didn't
Speaker 1: do a very good job because the balcony was dirty.
Speaker 1: There was a layer of dirt all over it, because
Speaker 1: footprints could be seen in the dirt. And it's of
Speaker 1: small balcony. It's only about it looks to me to
Speaker 1: be about maybe three foot wide at the most let's
Speaker 1: say more than that, more like five or six ft. Okay,
Speaker 1: it maybe, and maybe I'm reacting to the photos because
Speaker 1: they get lined us. Yeah it's a small balcony. But
Speaker 1: but what happened is photos were taken of the dirt
Speaker 1: because footprints were seen in the dirt, and there are
Speaker 1: several identified footprints. One happens to be Rebecca's. It's her
Speaker 1: left foot. Okay, so her left foot, the ball of
Speaker 1: her left foot or the and the heel are seen
Speaker 1: in one place, and then the ball is seen in another.
Speaker 1: But her right foot isn't ever seen in the dirt.
Speaker 1: There is a bootprint in the dirt which is very
Speaker 1: quickly identified as belonging to one of the officers who
Speaker 1: responded to the scene. Um, I don't know, I guess
Speaker 1: it just that doesn't make logical sense to me that
Speaker 1: there's only one yeah, I mean her feet, and that
Speaker 1: it would be clear enough to be you know, towball,
Speaker 1: ball toe. I think the very first one is the
Speaker 1: nearly a full foot. It's after that that you start
Speaker 1: getting just the ball of the foot, as if she
Speaker 1: was hopping on the ball of her feet. That's that
Speaker 1: may also be why on that one but I'm just
Speaker 1: ensitioning her, like tying to out there, pogo stick her
Speaker 1: way out there. We're gonna talk about that in a
Speaker 1: second here, Okay, so let's let's talk about this though.
Speaker 1: Um well, actually let's just talk about that. I don't
Speaker 1: so people have said, well, where the hell is her
Speaker 1: right foot in the dirt? And I almost I wonder
Speaker 1: if she may because there is a little bit of
Speaker 1: slack in the rope between her legs. I mean, she
Speaker 1: can't get them apart, but it's not as if they
Speaker 1: are bound together and they're gonna lose circulation in any
Speaker 1: time soon, So it's possible between the ankles. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's possible that she could have. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've ever done this, but if your legs
Speaker 1: are you even done a potato sack race or things
Speaker 1: like that where you're in kind of a weird confined space.
Speaker 1: I've done it before, and I found that it was
Speaker 1: sometimes it was easier to basically have one point of contact,
Speaker 1: which was one foot, so I you put the other
Speaker 1: foot on top so that your right foot is on
Speaker 1: top of her left foot. Maybe she was pogo sticking
Speaker 1: along that way. The other thing that I think he
Speaker 1: might be the only human in this entire world who
Speaker 1: does that. Maybe the other I don't, You're just mocking me.
Speaker 1: The only other thing that I will point out is
Speaker 1: that people are like, well, she it would have been
Speaker 1: so hard for her to hop out there, and why
Speaker 1: didn't she fall down? Remember, she didn't necessarily have to
Speaker 1: have put her hand back through the loop of the
Speaker 1: knot behind her back until she got to the railing,
Speaker 1: so she could have you know, hopped out, leaned forward,
Speaker 1: grabbed the railing, hopped to the railing since her hands
Speaker 1: between her behind her back, and then gone forward. Okay,
Speaker 1: so this is in support of the suicide, but in
Speaker 1: support of the murder, people are saying, oh no, she
Speaker 1: was tied up and basically, you know, kind of frog
Speaker 1: hopped out there before being shoved over. And the thing
Speaker 1: that cinches that for people is that supposedly there's a
Speaker 1: third set of footprints in the dirt. They are very
Speaker 1: faint and hard to see, so hard to see that
Speaker 1: the cops didn't see them, right, that's right. Well, sorry,
Speaker 1: just to go back to your theory that she was
Speaker 1: just hopping on the one foot, she had dirt on
Speaker 1: both feet. She did she did have dirt on both feet,
Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking that maybe that's why one made,
Speaker 1: you know, a noticeable impression and picked up enough in
Speaker 1: the other. Dude, I I don't know, Devin. I mean,
Speaker 1: this whole thing, this entire story has gone so cookie
Speaker 1: Ville on me because there are so many things that
Speaker 1: don't make sense that I don't know. I really have
Speaker 1: no idea about the footprints on the balconies. You don't
Speaker 1: know that it had a perfectly, evenly distributed layer of
Speaker 1: dirt and dust to the balcony. You don't really know that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have just been scattered here. When
Speaker 1: you go to clean things, they are perfectly and evenly
Speaker 1: covered in dirt to make it as hard as possible
Speaker 1: to clean them. But when you're walking across them, when
Speaker 1: you want to examine it later, that's when they're uneven
Speaker 1: like that. Here's what I will say about the third
Speaker 1: set of prints, even before we go into it, is
Speaker 1: that we also don't know like how long that balcony
Speaker 1: had been dirty, how many people have walked out there.
Speaker 1: And that's exactly right, Like I said, maybe the maid
Speaker 1: wasn't doing a good job, or maybe somebody else had
Speaker 1: walked out there at one point because the impressions. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's a guy named Dr Maurice Godwin. He's the one
Speaker 1: who found these third prints. He took the photos and
Speaker 1: he enhanced them using air quotes here to find those
Speaker 1: shoe prints or those footprints. Now what how he managed
Speaker 1: to get them to come out, I don't know, but
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that the person who cleaned the balcony
Speaker 1: stepped out there and left of innt and that is
Speaker 1: what he is picking up. Maybe somebody out there. What's that?
Speaker 1: What size were the prints? Um? I think you were
Speaker 1: large enough. He pretty much conclusively thought that they were
Speaker 1: a man's shoe, right, Yeah, I don't know that we
Speaker 1: have a I was gonna say, I could have been
Speaker 1: Rebecca walking out there with her shoes on before she decided. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was. I don't think it was
Speaker 1: Rebecca's because those I don't think she had those. Because
Speaker 1: the shoes, the pattern on them, it's this, so it's
Speaker 1: a tread pattern that goes, you know, from one side
Speaker 1: of the soul to the other, and it's it's a
Speaker 1: series of wide bands like kind of you know, arcs,
Speaker 1: and then they there's narrow bands and then white arcs. Again,
Speaker 1: it's that kind of sandal or flip flop. You see
Speaker 1: this on flip flops a lot. They have that they're
Speaker 1: not meant for traction, but they give you a little bit.
Speaker 1: But it's entirely possible that somebody just walked out there
Speaker 1: weeks or maybe even months prior, and he just in
Speaker 1: his enhancement process managed to bring that forward. But he
Speaker 1: says that that no, that means that she she did it,
Speaker 1: she or somebody else was there and helped kill her. Basically,
Speaker 1: he's insinuating that somebody was intentionally stepping in her footprints
Speaker 1: because they kind of seemed to follow behind her, at
Speaker 1: least in one spot. The problem I have with this
Speaker 1: theory about that is that it would be the obvious assumption,
Speaker 1: if you're in this match, in this home way, a
Speaker 1: stick and rich guy, that the help would would keep
Speaker 1: that thing clean, the balcony that and that there wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a layer of dirt out there. So why would
Speaker 1: you be worried about footprints to begin with? I mean,
Speaker 1: it'd be more worried about footprints and evidence in the
Speaker 1: carpet in the room, which is much more likely to
Speaker 1: retain evidence. I think that the walking in her footprints,
Speaker 1: it's not so much saying that they were doing it
Speaker 1: to hide their footsteps. It's that they were behind her,
Speaker 1: marching her forward and holding her upright. In other words,
Speaker 1: she's not exactly compliant to what's about to happen, and
Speaker 1: so this person is holding her and you know, hops
Speaker 1: her forward, takes a step forward, it just coincidentally happens
Speaker 1: to land in the same spot. Yeah, yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I know. Um, okay, So we talked about the lawsuit
Speaker 1: and the fact that this is more stuff in the
Speaker 1: murder section, and that the combined weight, you know, the
Speaker 1: two women on the bed, we that's unsubstantiated. Now we
Speaker 1: know that's not the truth. People that they were sitting
Speaker 1: on the bed and that's why it only moved seven
Speaker 1: and a half inches. How do how do we know
Speaker 1: that they weren't on the bed? Well, because there is
Speaker 1: footage of them in other places that night. They're saying that,
Speaker 1: like I should know that, but you haven't said that yet.
Speaker 1: So oh I thought I said that we were talking
Speaker 1: about the bed earlier, is that there they weren't. Well,
Speaker 1: we know that they weren't. The case was modified against Nina,
Speaker 1: Dina and Adams, so that Nina and Dina are no
Speaker 1: longer being charged because footage was found that showed that
Speaker 1: other than Nina having been at the luson knocking on
Speaker 1: the door and getting no answer, neither of them were there.
Speaker 1: They were in other places. There is CCT footage and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Said, and I wasn't paying at sorr um. Uh,
Speaker 1: so we know that that that couldn't have happened. But
Speaker 1: now it seems the theory has modified a little bit
Speaker 1: because they're saying that the damage that was done to
Speaker 1: Rebecca's head that rendered her basically unconscious because she wasn't drugged,
Speaker 1: There was no booze, there was no drugs in her alcohol.
Speaker 1: So to make her compliant to this whole scenario, she
Speaker 1: would have had to be knocked in the head and
Speaker 1: basically unconscious. Did you say there are no drugs in
Speaker 1: her alcohol? Well, if I did, she didn't have drugs
Speaker 1: in her alcohol. She didn't have any alcohol in her drugs.
Speaker 1: She didn't have either of those in her system. I
Speaker 1: just I might have misheard you that, probably because I
Speaker 1: have battened a thousand to night. But yeah, so so
Speaker 1: they're saying that you know she was struck and then
Speaker 1: whoever it was, took her and shoved her over the balcony.
Speaker 1: Now again, it took like thirty minutes for the re
Speaker 1: enactment to tie her up, So that's a hell of
Speaker 1: a whack to the head to knock her out for
Speaker 1: the period of time. What I don't really get is
Speaker 1: if you're not your unconscious, why you need to tie
Speaker 1: her up anyway she's unconscious, just put a noose around
Speaker 1: her neck, and you know, especially Spence, it would looks
Speaker 1: less suspicious, especially the hands type you had, the back,
Speaker 1: the fewer red flags there, it just looks like a Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not putting down suicide when I say this,
Speaker 1: but it's a run of the mill, your standard what
Speaker 1: you expect to see in a situation where someone has
Speaker 1: hung themselves. If the hands and feet aren't tied, the
Speaker 1: whole shirt and news gag thing is not there. It's
Speaker 1: just a standard basic hanging. Instead, she looked like she
Speaker 1: was lynched. Do yeah, she does, just it's just a
Speaker 1: question who did yeah? But or and also well there's
Speaker 1: a question of what you lanced. I mean obviously too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even though it does look that way. It does. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so the so the soul, the sole person left over
Speaker 1: in that lawsuit is Adam shack Ny, and Adam's got
Speaker 1: some things that are going not so well in his favor.
Speaker 1: Uh there. So there's the the knots that were used
Speaker 1: to tire up there. You always see them referred to
Speaker 1: as nautical style, and then everybody says, oh, and by
Speaker 1: the way, he worked on a tugboat, it was like
Speaker 1: it was or something. He totally could have been the
Speaker 1: one that tied these knots. He knows how to tie
Speaker 1: those knots. I gotta tell you, it's it's too bad.
Speaker 1: I can't see that much. I've seen some pictures of
Speaker 1: some decent pictures of a few of the knots, but
Speaker 1: not all of them. And I gotta tell you, I
Speaker 1: don't recognize any nautical knots in there. Yeah. Yeah, than
Speaker 1: the fact it's a cinch not that there's nothing insanely
Speaker 1: I see very common, simple little knots, and in fact,
Speaker 1: and mostly no knots whatsoever. I mean, like the when
Speaker 1: she tied the rope to the bed, she didn't actually
Speaker 1: tie it to the bed, she just it's got it's
Speaker 1: got a loop in the end. She passed the rope
Speaker 1: around the bed post and then pulled the rest of
Speaker 1: the rope through that. So not it's not even technically
Speaker 1: a not. Yeah. And she did the same thing with
Speaker 1: the one that the piece that went around her neck.
Speaker 1: Same things. And so there was another one that looked
Speaker 1: like probably so sort of a double half hitch possibly,
Speaker 1: which is again not a hard knot. It's not exactly
Speaker 1: you need to be a salty old sailor of tying
Speaker 1: on like that. So I'm a little I'm a little
Speaker 1: skeptical about the whole k not thing. Yeah, I am
Speaker 1: not going to disagree with that. Okay, Well, aside from
Speaker 1: the kno thing, there's another thing that's going against Adam
Speaker 1: shack Ny and that that's poured. Actually, actually, I didn't
Speaker 1: want to say one other thing about about the knots. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's that? Well, I did it was you already know
Speaker 1: from what I said earlier. I hate that crappy plastic rope. Really,
Speaker 1: would you is not easy to tie in? No, And
Speaker 1: I think that if the guy truly was a typeico
Speaker 1: of captain, he would not have he would not have
Speaker 1: stooped tying seriously, I think he would have gotten hiself
Speaker 1: a decent piece of rope. This is this rope is crap,
Speaker 1: all right? Yeah, okay, and also also by the way,
Speaker 1: and also by the way, also if whoever tied her
Speaker 1: up was indeed an artful not tire, then he wouldn't
Speaker 1: have tied her up the way he did. Yeah. I know,
Speaker 1: if this was somebody who was into bondage or something
Speaker 1: like that, they would have done something much more elaborate.
Speaker 1: I will, I will agree with that, or more much
Speaker 1: more simple. I mean, it's not it's not really necessary
Speaker 1: if you're tying somebody have to pass the rope back
Speaker 1: and forth and back and forth and back and forth
Speaker 1: and back and forth between both arms to tie them
Speaker 1: up securely. And if the guy knows his ropes is not,
Speaker 1: he doesn't need to do that, which is why I'm
Speaker 1: kind of like, I'm kind of doubting at him as
Speaker 1: a suspect here, and for a murder. Yeah, yeah, any way,
Speaker 1: that's at least as far as the knots go. Okay,
Speaker 1: but I know there's some others. There's some I all
Speaker 1: tied up with it. Okay. So the other thing that
Speaker 1: we got going on here is porn. Because when police
Speaker 1: searched the computers in the guesthouse, they you know, they're thinking, okay, well,
Speaker 1: maybe like she looked up the internet searches of how
Speaker 1: to tie a noose. Well, instead what they find our
Speaker 1: search terms. And by the way, this is on both
Speaker 1: a computer and then eventually they look on his iPhone,
Speaker 1: but they find things like raped sexy Asian girls and
Speaker 1: bondage anime. And he, of course, initially he denies that,
Speaker 1: oh no, it wasn't me, but eventually he fesses up
Speaker 1: and says it was him. There's if you look at it,
Speaker 1: if you look at those search terms and like there's
Speaker 1: this this whole Asian bondage thing going on, you could
Speaker 1: see possibly how if it was Adam, there's a weird
Speaker 1: sexual element to tying her up. Now, there was no intercourse,
Speaker 1: you know, there was no penetrave sex. So that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that she wasn't sexually assaulted. That it does not.
Speaker 1: But what I'm getting at is, we know that they
Speaker 1: didn't go about it in the traditional manner. But if
Speaker 1: it's him and he tied her up and got his
Speaker 1: jolly's off by seeing her all tied up, that's you know, this,
Speaker 1: this search string lights up all of those alarms. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: I will, however, I will play Devil's advocate for a
Speaker 1: second and say that it is entirely possible that he
Speaker 1: used some bad judgment that night and decided to go
Speaker 1: on the computer and look for some regular porn and
Speaker 1: kept clicking links which were starting a new searches, which
Speaker 1: you know, it goes on and on, and suddenly he's
Speaker 1: in the world of gonzo porn. And this has happened
Speaker 1: to me. And I'm not talking about porn youtubeers, so
Speaker 1: don't give me that look. But I have. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've done to make those in pots in your house.
Speaker 1: And the next thing you know, you're reading about lamas
Speaker 1: and can they turn cannibalistic and you're like, how don't
Speaker 1: get from theirity here? But okay, it happened. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: still like the eat you you're gonna regret it. It's
Speaker 1: still really it's like it a lot. It's a little scheezy.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's damning, Yeah, I mean not enough
Speaker 1: to secure a conviction. I don't think. I guess you
Speaker 1: know I can. Okay, the rape and the bondage, like
Speaker 1: the bondage, fine, like that's a pretty normal vanilla kink
Speaker 1: as far as things to go. But you know, even
Speaker 1: the like Asian stuff, Like she was Asian and it's
Speaker 1: totally possible that he just had a huge crush on her.
Speaker 1: She was just super attractive. I've known white guys who
Speaker 1: really were into Asian girls at all. No, that's true,
Speaker 1: but the right part. Yeah, but the what the Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's what what dude, You've you've read by stuff. There's
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of WTF spread all through this set
Speaker 1: of notes. So the last thing that I have on
Speaker 1: the it was murder section is something that we covered
Speaker 1: in the suicide section, and that is the DNA or
Speaker 1: the lack of d NA. Like, if if Adam were
Speaker 1: doing this because he was going to get back at,
Speaker 1: you know, her for hurting Max, then he must have
Speaker 1: gone to you know, he must have got into a
Speaker 1: full on chemical biohazard suit to have not you know,
Speaker 1: to have interacted with her for as long as he
Speaker 1: would have had to have and yet left no fingerprints
Speaker 1: or no DNA behind. Lucky Well, because here's what I'll
Speaker 1: say about that is that he could have not done
Speaker 1: that because he knew he would be the one to
Speaker 1: find her, and thought, I will be able to explain
Speaker 1: every bit of DNA of mind they find on her
Speaker 1: and the crime scene by saying I saved her, I
Speaker 1: caught her down, I touched the rope, I went into
Speaker 1: the guest room, I did all these things. Well. But
Speaker 1: if they found DNA, he could have said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I like must have run, you know, he could have
Speaker 1: said he could have come up with an explanation given
Speaker 1: that he was like basically living there right for the
Speaker 1: last twenty four hours, so some way to explain it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible that it just happened that there
Speaker 1: was no DNA, but that his plan was if they
Speaker 1: do find DNA, I'm not gonna, you know, try to
Speaker 1: cover it up. I just know that I'm the one
Speaker 1: who will find her so well, and in support of that,
Speaker 1: if you watch his interview with the cops, he does
Speaker 1: a lot of I don't know, man, I just know
Speaker 1: that this happened, and then I was over here doing
Speaker 1: that and and he swears like a tugboat captain through
Speaker 1: the whole thing. But um, you know, he does a
Speaker 1: whole much I don't know, I don't know. I just
Speaker 1: this and then it was this, and so he could
Speaker 1: I mean in support of that. If he did get lucky,
Speaker 1: he could have said after the fact that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's weird we found your DNA in the tub too,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, I just ran up there and
Speaker 1: I you know, I mean, or I took a shower
Speaker 1: up there last night. Oh yeah, alright, I stay. You
Speaker 1: know I was hanging out with her, and I know
Speaker 1: I had some DNA sort of happened, you know, can
Speaker 1: I get that on a shirt? D you could? But um,
Speaker 1: I mean even more than that, even if he did
Speaker 1: like sexually assault her, right, he could have said it
Speaker 1: was mutual, yeah, right, which is yeah, there was no
Speaker 1: sex apparently, so well there was no there was no
Speaker 1: trade of sex sex, so there's no traditional way I
Speaker 1: was framing it. No traditional sex, no found. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's hard because I don't think she was murdered,
Speaker 1: but I don't think she killed herself. You know. It's
Speaker 1: such an extreme Okay, so the way that she was
Speaker 1: bound in the series of things that appear to have happened,
Speaker 1: it is it is such an outlier, such an extreme
Speaker 1: way to go about it. That it's boggling, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. Well, actually, in once, in one respect, it
Speaker 1: could make sense if well, if you want to make it,
Speaker 1: if you want to commit suicide and make it look
Speaker 1: like somebody killed you, that's one reason to do it
Speaker 1: that way. I don't know what possible reason she would
Speaker 1: have for that, though. Well let's let's say, let's give
Speaker 1: a hypothetical. I mean, let's say Jonah calls her up
Speaker 1: and says, it doesn't look like Max is gonna make it,
Speaker 1: and I want you to pack your crapping at the
Speaker 1: hell out of my house. I want you to be
Speaker 1: gone when I get back tomorrow, you know. And she's
Speaker 1: feeling all the sparing because, let's face it, she had
Speaker 1: her She found herself a pretty sweet little gig there
Speaker 1: she did. She she hid herself a good thing going.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying she was a gold digger, and
Speaker 1: I'm not even saying that that this is what happened.
Speaker 1: This is just a hypothetical. So she decides to kill herself.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, she's feeling a little bitter
Speaker 1: about the whole situation because she feels like it wasn't
Speaker 1: entirely her fault, if at all, And so she decides, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill myself. That'll show him. And as she
Speaker 1: starts thinking, hey, why not while I'm Matt really soil
Speaker 1: that really soiled his nest a bit because he's a
Speaker 1: big CEO for a company and everything. And I'll make
Speaker 1: it look like maybe somehow somebody possibly killed me, and
Speaker 1: I'll do so. I'll paint a weird message that makes
Speaker 1: ut only know sense. I'll strip naked, I'll tie myself
Speaker 1: up and hang myself and make it look like he
Speaker 1: killed me. Then delete the voicemail because the voicemail gave
Speaker 1: her good motive for suicide for trying to frame him.
Speaker 1: You know, she might have just done it out of
Speaker 1: share habit. I haven't heard any stories that said that
Speaker 1: she was vindictive or manipulative in her behavior. I would
Speaker 1: expect that somebody to the length of what you're describing
Speaker 1: would have exhibited that kind of behavior in the past,
Speaker 1: and those stories would have surfaced maybe. But here's the thing,
Speaker 1: when when I've been reading about this story, everybody ascribes
Speaker 1: all kinds of motives to the shack Nights, which we
Speaker 1: really don't have any reason to actually believe everybody says, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, Max had this this fatal accident, the whole
Speaker 1: family wanted to murder Rebecca because everybody was angry. Well,
Speaker 1: you don't actually know that anybody in the family blamed
Speaker 1: her at all. You don't know that. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no evidence that anybody was even angry with her,
Speaker 1: much less murderously angry and ready to kill her. Similarly, though,
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that says that she was angry enough
Speaker 1: at herself to have killed herself over it. You know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I mean, I think I think it
Speaker 1: goes both ways. Well, no, that's that's exactly what I
Speaker 1: was just saying. What I was saying is, yeah, you're saying, well,
Speaker 1: there's no evidence for that. I was saying, Similarly, there's
Speaker 1: no I agree. That's why I think. That's what I
Speaker 1: was saying. It's where it's crazy, where it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't think she was murdered, but I also don't think
Speaker 1: I think suicide fits suicide. Although I guess there's a
Speaker 1: third kind of third theory here, is that you know
Speaker 1: that they were both murdered. Yeah, that occurred to me too,
Speaker 1: that somebody was trying to get to Jonah and murdered
Speaker 1: the kid and then murdered her. Maybe she saw something
Speaker 1: so they were like, well, okay, here we go. I
Speaker 1: gotta kill you too, because you're about to squeal. I
Speaker 1: think it was probably something like something like you know
Speaker 1: they do this to Max, and and then do you
Speaker 1: want to get the phone? Did you get the message?
Speaker 1: And Jolie says, yeah, screw you. Click, Okay, Well kill
Speaker 1: a girlfriend. Okay, I mean it's not Yeah. TV tells
Speaker 1: us that at the perfectly plausive, just as crazy as
Speaker 1: everything else we've talked about. Yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: suicide is really the least crazy thing. I don't. There's
Speaker 1: not much here. I don't. I'm not really seeing any
Speaker 1: strong motive on the family's part, and definitely if they
Speaker 1: wanted to kill her, if they were that angry about it.
Speaker 1: Number one, let's not forget Max was not dead yet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the that's the whole problem with why she would
Speaker 1: kill herself because Max hadn't actually died. She didn't know
Speaker 1: that he might if he would or would not recover.
Speaker 1: She had been told he probably wasn't, but that didn't
Speaker 1: mean he was going to. That's that's again, this thing
Speaker 1: is just full of so many loop you lose. We
Speaker 1: could do this for another hour, but I think we
Speaker 1: should probably just wrap it up. I think we should
Speaker 1: say I'm voting suicide. Okay, I'm vote and I don't know,
Speaker 1: all right, So, if you want to read any of
Speaker 1: the links about this story, we'll have some of that
Speaker 1: on our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh.
Speaker 1: The episodes are you can download and listen to them
Speaker 1: from there. You can also get merged from there. You
Speaker 1: can stream us from just about any streaming site UH, Stitcher,
Speaker 1: Google play, iTunes. If you're using any of those and
Speaker 1: they allow you to review, please do the time to
Speaker 1: comment and review the show because that helps everybody else
Speaker 1: find us. We are on social media, so we're on Reddit,
Speaker 1: we are on Twitter, and we are on Facebook with
Speaker 1: the Facebook page and the Facebook group. And of course,
Speaker 1: if you want to get in contact with us because
Speaker 1: you have thoughts on the story or you have story
Speaker 1: suggestions you'd like to send in, send us an email
Speaker 1: at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. And that
Speaker 1: is all of the good bits and pieces that we
Speaker 1: have to share. So I think that we can put
Speaker 1: a bow on this one and be done. Agree and
Speaker 1: we'll talk to you guys next week. Bye guys,