1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy and this week I'm talking 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: with Sharne Shrine. How are you doing good? Actually, I 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: know the first time you told me, I just said 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: I was like basically doing bad. But after recording the 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: first part. I don't know if people know that record 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: them back to back, but I feel much better than 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: I did earlier. So I feel good after hearing about 9 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: all these cool fucking people. Yeah. Cool. And our producer 10 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: Sophie is on the line as well. Sophie, how are you? 11 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: I'm great, drinking a cream soda Zevia, live in my 12 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: best life, you know, so speaking of aftertastes and Nazis, 13 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: and there's this I actually don't know how to do 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: this segway. Um, But you are listening to the part 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: two of our two part series on gay resistance to Fascism, 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: and so you're probably a little bit confused if you 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: haven't heard the episode that came out Monday, So you 18 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: should go back and listen to it. If you haven't, 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: you really should. It's a really good episode and people 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: learn about a lot of really cool people. And this 21 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: is coming from a very big cynic. So this is good. 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: It's like trying to impress the cynic is like an 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: interesting not even about impressing. It's like, will I still 24 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: be miserable by the end of this, you know what 25 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: I mean? Like it's like, yeah, you know what. Okay, 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: Well this one is going to be Oh, I don't 27 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: want to spoil it. Okay. So where we last left off, 28 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: there was like a motley crew of queers, artists and 29 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: medical students in Amsterdam who just pulled off a like 30 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: heist movie level antics to blow up a Nazi records storehouse. 31 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: And today we're going to bring things back to Germany. 32 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: So Germany, there's a country called Germany. Vimar Germany is 33 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: the period from nineteen nineteen, after Germany got its fucking 34 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: ass handed to it in the First World War to 35 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three, when Hitler came to power and did 36 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: the whole Hitler thing that I presume most people are 37 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: familiar with on some level. And Vimar Germany had a 38 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: lot going for it, right. It was a republic, for 39 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: one thing, which is a step up from dictatorships and such. 40 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: People could like vote and ship, and there was free speech, 41 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: there was free assembly, there was no state religion, some 42 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: of the gay laws weren't being enforced, although they were 43 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: still there, and the government was based out of a 44 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: city called Weimar, which is how they got the name 45 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: Bimar Germany. But Germany was completely fucked economically. World War 46 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: One left their economy and shambles. Hyperinflation took over. Everyone 47 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: was hungry and you know, fucked, and then they had 48 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: the fucking worldwide Depression after all of that on top 49 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, I think that's the reason why 50 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: the Nazis worked, you know what I mean. They had 51 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: to like kind of get the desperate, you know what 52 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: I mean, Like they had to really and like then 53 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: Hitler quotes like, oh he can save us kind of thing. 54 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: I think they had to have the previous shitty part 55 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: in order to even part, if that makes sense totally, 56 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: because people are so fucked they're like, I'll try anything 57 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: exactly yeah. And then so so most of the stuff 58 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: I had been exposed to about by our Germany, which 59 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: focus on really cool stuff because by our Germany was 60 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: very in seeing artistic time period, and mostly I've heard 61 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: about the cabaret scene, all the sort of decadent queer 62 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: artists who try to live fancy, free lives while they're 63 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: basically starving. And all that is like true and interesting 64 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: and beautiful, but it's only one part of Germany's culture 65 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: at the time, and actually only one part of it's 66 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: it's queerness and it's queer culture. You've also got this 67 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: really messy assortment of different organizations that have different names 68 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: but get called like the vonder Vogel or the German 69 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: youth movement or the hiking clubs, and these go back decades. 70 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: They go back to the eighteen nineties and there's this 71 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: movement that it kind of looks like boy Scouts. Boy 72 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: Scouts was like a funk off, huge thing that involved 73 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: millions of boys and girls both through various levels of 74 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: formal and informal organization, with weird paganism, vegetarianism, nudism, and 75 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: queerness running out through the entire thing. So not actually 76 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: very much like boy Scouts. I would like to be 77 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: that kind of boy Scout. Okay, well then you're gonna 78 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: love our characters today. Um So, millions of German kids 79 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: formed these hiking clubs and uh spent their days like 80 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: camping and getting in touch with nature. It was an 81 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: anti modernist movement a lot of a lot of parts 82 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: of it, and whenever people are like, oh, it was this, 83 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: it's like it's all kinds of different things all happening 84 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: at the same time. Um, But it was kind of 85 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: a lot of it was about leaving civilization behind. A 86 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: lot of it was German nationalist, although it didn't have 87 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: necessarily an anti Semitic character as far as I can tell, um, 88 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: at least on any systemic level. Some of it was 89 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: really middle class and some of it was really working class, 90 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: and a lot of it was just fucking outright criminal 91 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: in kind of the best and worst ways. Um. There's 92 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: a French gay anarchist named Daniel Gurin who wrote about 93 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: the movement in the nineteen thirties because he would go 94 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: visit nineteen thirties Germany because it was a fucking awesome 95 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: place to be a gay anarchist, and but he found it. 96 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: He found this movement increasingly politically polarized between the communists 97 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: and the fascists. And as the whole worldwide depression is hitting, 98 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: more and more youth are finding themselves homeless. They choose 99 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: itinerant lifestyles over staying still in one place. So the 100 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: movement keeps growing, and it keeps polarizing and doing all 101 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: kinds of weird ship. In nineteen thirty three, huge chunks 102 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: of has come to an abrupt end when Hitler bands 103 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: all alternative youth organizations that aren't the Hitler Youth. A 104 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: lot of the more mainstreams of these groups just basically 105 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: become the Hitler Youth, and in nine he makes participation 106 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: in the Hitler Youth compulsory um. And but the youth 107 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: movement went a lot of different directions. Not all of 108 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: it went into Hitler Youth, as we'll get into, but 109 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: some of it did. And so we're going to talk 110 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: about gay Nazis now, these are not the cool people 111 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: who did cool stuff. Well balance it out, I suppose. 112 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: But also I'm fascinated where where this will go. My 113 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: own experience with boy Scouts. Um, I was a boy Scout, 114 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: and uh, my best friend and who was a boy Scout, 115 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: came out as trans like years before I did. Um, 116 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: And so I love that you know me and my 117 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: best friend because people are like, oh, they're they're letting 118 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: girls into boy Scouts now, and then like me and 119 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: a lot of other trans women are like, oh no, 120 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: they always did but so gay Nazis. Uh, that's that's 121 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: the thing. Yeah. So before Hitler took over completely and 122 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: the National Socialists were just like one of the parties 123 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: in Germany. They were actually the only political party in 124 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: Weimar Germany with unknown high ranking gay member. Ernst Rom 125 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: was the leader of Hitler's essay, which are usually called 126 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: the brown Shirts, which are basically the parties like street 127 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: thugs who operate outside the law, like you know when 128 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: Trump told his brown Shirts proud Boys to stand by 129 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: and stand back, similar sort of organization. And and ernst 130 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: Rom was really into this hyper masculinity thing. He's so 131 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: anti you know, if you're so anti feminine that you 132 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: don't fuck women, right, Um. And he's really into authority 133 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: and discipline and obedience as are good manly things, unlike democracy, socialism, anarchism, 134 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: fucking girls, all that weird stocked Yeah. And this is 135 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: not to say that the Nazis were pro gay. They 136 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: were just kind of pro hypocrisy, I think. Um, even 137 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: before they came to the power, they were the most 138 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: adamantly anti gay party in politics. But even the Social Democrats, 139 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: who were the ones who weren't enforcing paragraph on seventy 140 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: five and were part of trying to fight to get 141 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: paragraph on SV repealed. When um they used they used 142 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: homophobic language to try and talk shot on the Nazis. 143 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: Basically they were like, oh, Rom's gay, and so they 144 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: like published his private letters in order to basically be like, 145 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: if you support the Nazis, you support uh pedophilia and gayness, 146 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: and the Nazis will corrupt our children, and so no 147 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: one's fucking good at this point. No no political party 148 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: is looking good. The Nazis are clearly looking the worst. 149 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: But it's just kind of interesting to me. And this 150 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: causes us split in the gay rights scene. Right, some 151 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: groups like the Scientific Humanitarian Committee, which is, as Magnus 152 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: Hirsh felt, the guy I was talking about a lot 153 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: last episode, he warns the gay Zis. He's like, you know, 154 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: the fucking Nazis are going to come after you too, right. 155 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: But then the other big organization at the time, this 156 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: is really not something to be proud of. Uh, They're like, 157 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: what nah, They're not coming after all the gay people, 158 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: just those Jewish gay people. Um yeah, but but spoiler alert, 159 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: the Nazis are coming after all. The case m hmm. 160 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: So On June four, on what gets called the Night 161 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: of Long Knives, Hitler has Rom and a whole bunch 162 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: of the other brown Shirt leaders just murdered, and in public, 163 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: Hitler was like, oh, I definitely did this because Rom 164 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: was going to betray me. But it was really transparently. 165 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: Hitler was tired of being made fun of for putting 166 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: up with gay people in the ranks. His pal Mussolini 167 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: like to make fun of him, and they were like, 168 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: ah ha, you harboring gays, you know whatever, you know 169 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: his pal Musolini, Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. That's like the 170 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: very first no homo with consequences or something. I don't yeah, totally. 171 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: And then it what's kind of interesting is that Hitler 172 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: probably didn't personally have a problem with Rome's homosexuality. He 173 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: just he was a fucking people pleaser and he wanted 174 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: people to like him. Um, which has definitely never happened again. 175 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: There's never been a populist right wing leader any time 176 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: in history, certainly not in the past ten years in 177 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: the United States who has clearly not had any problem 178 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: personally with gay people. And then no, yeah, yeah, but 179 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: greatest country in the world, we're the ones who beat 180 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: these Nazis. Okay, so we're the heroes of this story. Yeah, 181 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: and then fire the conductor for being gay. Um. So 182 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: in private, Hitler would either defend or attack romes have homosexuality, 183 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: depending on the audience, right, Like, sometimes he was like, oh, 184 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: that was in his misspent youth and he's learned better now. 185 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: And other times he's like a US, worldly men, we 186 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: understand that such thing has happened, and are fine. That's 187 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: my Hitler accent. Um, I don't do accents. You should. Yeah. 188 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: I also don't do accents, but I think I when 189 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: I tried, I've learned my lessons. So yeah, I'm reasonably 190 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: so that if someone put a gun to my head 191 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: and said that I had to speak like a British 192 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: person for two minutes or I would die. I would 193 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: die because I genuinely believe that with a gun to 194 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 1: my head, I would not be able to talk with 195 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: a British accent. No, no, no, no no. I did 196 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: a live reading of Twilight Ones with backdel Cast, another 197 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: amazing podcast, and I had to voice one of the 198 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: characters who was French and for and like in the thing, 199 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: he has an accent, and so I tried before we recorded, 200 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: I was like, can I do this? And I tried 201 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: to have a French accent and I sounded like Jamaican 202 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: every time it was so I was that was like cemented, 203 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: like sharene. Accents are not for you. This is not so. 204 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: Accents are hard. So I understand and I don't want 205 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: to do that to the audience. Okay. So another one 206 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: of the people that another one of the gay brown 207 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: Shirts that Hitler has killed, was a guy named Edmund 208 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: Hines who was actually Hitler's cell mate after the failed 209 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: cove that Hall pusch Um and he was one of 210 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: the fucking original Nazis, Like literally, he was number seventy 211 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: eight in the enlisting in the National Socialists and he 212 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: was gay as hell um And when they came for 213 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: him during the Night of Long Knives, he was in 214 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: bed with a lover. By one Hitler starts suggesting the 215 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: death penalty for gay kids and the Hitler youth, and 216 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: then they passed the death penalty for gay s S members. 217 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: But what they do instead, I mean a lot of 218 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: them they kill, right, some of those sentences get commuted 219 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: to go be cannon fodder in the war against Russia, 220 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: which I think they actually did to a lot of um. Yeah, 221 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people end up dying that way, get 222 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: taken out of prison and sent to go die on 223 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: the Eastern Front um or they're sent to serve in. 224 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: It's like all criminal Durley Vanger Brigade of the s S, 225 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: which is basically a brigade within the SS that's like 226 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: all of the worst people and the criminals. And I 227 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: put worse people in quotes, but like you know where 228 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: they like go give criminals a chance to go. I 229 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: I bring all this stuff up. Okay, do you know 230 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: that meme the I never thought leopards would eat my face, 231 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: said the person who voted for the leopards eating people's faces. Party. No, 232 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: I don't know this is I just said, okay, okay, okay, okay, no, no, no, 233 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just basically this It's like someone's like, 234 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: but I never thought the leopards would eat my face, 235 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: the person who voted for the leopards eating people's faces party. 236 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: And that's how I feel about the gay Nazis. Yeah. Yeah. 237 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: And the reasons to bring this up in this like 238 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: otherwise conversation about good gay people is that I feel like, okay, 239 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: when we talk about the bad people in history who 240 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: are gay. We're usually playing into this trope that like 241 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: all of them were closeted, right, but these gay's Nazis weren't. 242 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: They were not closeted. They were open about their interests. 243 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: It was part of their like storied tradition of right 244 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: wing homosexuality that ran concurrently with left wing in a 245 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: political homosexuality. And it's just like internalized homophobia or like 246 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: hatred that I tried to wrap my head around stuff 247 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: like that, like what they tell themselves to legitimize their 248 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: existence or like what they're doing. So it's like, I 249 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: don't know, just sucking racists, you know, and they're like, 250 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: I like the Racist Party and then they're like what 251 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: the Racist Party hates you for being gay? And you're like, well, 252 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 1: I don't care. I'm so racist that that's you know. 253 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: It's like we see that a lot. Yeah. Yeah, And 254 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: like the modern far right in the United States there 255 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: are like, you know, gay members of it, and you're 256 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: just like, what are you fucking doing? They hate you 257 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: and will laugh at you and show you at the 258 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: first opportunity, and they're like, no, they like me. You know, 259 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, I just thought of it's probably power that 260 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: changes it, you know what I mean, Like if you 261 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: feel like you're a little bit not untouchable but like protected, 262 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: you feel more able to be a hypocrite. I feel like, right, yeah, no, 263 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: that that actually makes sense, honestly, Like almost everything comes 264 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: down to power at the end. M wompomp Okay, ready okay. 265 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: And so the other is gonna bring all this up 266 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: is that, um, I think that we we forget that 267 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: a lot of this ship has like really high stakes, 268 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: the way that we talked about sex and sexuality and gender. 269 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: And I would argue that we should be on the 270 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: lookout for when some segment of oh, I don't know, 271 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: feminism or gay politics starts making common cause with the 272 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: right wing, which obviously would never happen now, No feminists 273 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: would just start making common cause with the right wing 274 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: at all. No, no, no white feminism here. Yeah exactly. 275 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: Oh god, I just thought I was I wanted to 276 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: make like a really subtle Harry Potter reference, but I 277 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: went fast enough, and so I just went with that 278 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: the most obviously. But you should know a listener that 279 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: I was trying to uh talk about Jay, Yeah, me too, 280 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking of. To Yeah. Okay, so 281 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: so you've got the gay Nazis. They don't last very long, 282 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: fuck them whatever. Um, But now I want to talk 283 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: about gay pirates. Hell yeah, let's do Yeah. I want 284 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: to talk about the edl wise pirates, who are so 285 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: much fucking cooler, and they're on the opposite side of 286 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: all this. So all the youth from the what I 287 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: was saying, when they're all itinerant doing all this crazy 288 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: ship they're running around in these like it gets a 289 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: million names buns or bands or clubs or clicks or whatever, 290 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: and they're coming out of the vonder Vogel and all 291 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: these related movements and the whitewashed version of history that 292 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: I had run across primarily before doing this research honestly 293 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: has them like wandering around the pristine German countryside, like 294 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: singing camp songs and thinking about like marrying their heterosexual 295 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: sweethearts monogamously and popping up pure arian babies and all 296 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: that ship. Right, But like this could not be further 297 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: from the truth. Uh, this, this growing culture of vagabond 298 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: is um and has a desire for change because they're 299 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: all fucking broken, hungry, and mainstream societies completely failed them. 300 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: And more and more of them. We're living in camps 301 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: and again totally unfamiliar to people today's you know whatever. Um, 302 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: A lot of the clubs are gangs. They were the 303 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: wild gangs, and they were in a war against civilization 304 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: and everything boring. Every winter they would like disband in 305 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: every easter, they would celebrate their click or their gang's rebirth. 306 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: Their their camp songs where parodies of the Hitler youth songs. 307 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: They told dirty jokes, They got into fist fights with 308 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: the Hitler youth. Um, basically with all the men off 309 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: to war, the Hitler youth were acting like the police 310 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of German cities and so they and 311 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: they lived criminal lives and they fucked and oh my god, 312 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: did they fuck. And it was anything but straight, anything 313 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: but monogamous. Like it's it's like queer enough to like 314 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: maybe even get me a little bit like, oh my 315 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: may that's not the right way to go about these things, 316 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: you know. Um, So these are not the assimilationist gays. 317 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: These are street fighting, forest fucking, sex working, Nazi robbing 318 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: criminal queers. Yeah. It's like the anarchy of gay Yeah. 319 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: And and they're called the They have a lot of 320 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: different names, and but the one I'm going to use 321 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: now is the wild Fry, which means the wild free, 322 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: which was one of their mottoes. And they would have 323 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: like things emblazoned while I'll get to that, um. And 324 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: they they live up to the name. History mostly remembers 325 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: like a subsect of them called the Edelwise Pirates. And 326 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: and I've got yeah it's a flower. Oh interesting, Okay, 327 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: I think I know, right. Yeah, So so I've got 328 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: information kind of about two generations of the Wild Fry, 329 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: and one chunk comes from about and one chunk comes 330 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: from the early forties. And so I'm kind of doing 331 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: my best to give an honest like the way that 332 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: these two connect. But there isn't a lot of information 333 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: about that because all of the ship is so heterowashed um. 334 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: But so it's an important I'm gonna do an imperfect job, 335 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna do the best I can and quote 336 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: original sources and all that ship. And because people when 337 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: they mentioned Edlwise Pirates, they present the sort of like 338 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: generic working class youth subculture who ruled and we're bravest 339 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: fuck and they like fought Nazis. There's a movie about 340 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: them called I think it's called Edowise pirates um but 341 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: has taken out Yeah, totally, and it doesn't talk about 342 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: their origins and it definitely doesn't talking about gay fucking 343 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: and um. So so Daniel Garon, who's the French anarchists 344 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: who wants to go hang out with gay folks in Germany. 345 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: So does. He describes a run in with them in 346 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: his book called the Brown Plague, which is a doesn't 347 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: translate well now, but means that it's critical of the 348 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: rising tide of fascism. Okay, one Sunday on the outskirts 349 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: of Berlin, we met by chance a strange troop on 350 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: the road. Needless to say, neither they're short pants, their 351 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: bare calves which disappeared under their long wolf vests, the 352 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: bulky and sundry loads swain on their backs, nor their 353 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: enormous hiking boots distinguished them from ordinary vagabonds. But they 354 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: were very much toughs. They had the depraved and troubled 355 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: faces of hoodlums, and the most bizarre coverings on their heads, 356 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: black or gray chaplinesque bowlers, old women's hats with the 357 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: brims turned up in amazon fashion, adorned with ostrich plumes 358 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: and metals, proletarian navigator caps created with enormous edel wise 359 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: above the visor, handkerchiefs or scarves, and streaming colors tied 360 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: any which way around the neck, bare chests bursting out 361 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: of open skin, vests with broad stripes, arms scored with 362 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: fantastic or lewd tattoos, ears hung with pendants or enormous rings, 363 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: leather shorts surmounted by immense triangular belts, alsho of leather, 364 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: both daubed with all the colors of the rainbow, esoteric numbers, 365 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: human profiles, and inscriptions such as wild fry or rude 366 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: ber bandits around their wrists. They wore enormous leather bracelets. 367 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: In short, they were a bizarre mixture of virility and feminacy. Wow, 368 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: that's a sentence, that is That is amazing, I know. 369 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: And uh, and you two can buy all of their 370 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: costumes from our sponsor, the Pirates Store UM, which is 371 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: a nonprofit again because we're going full pure wholesome with 372 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: the ads. Here is a nonprofit store. Uh yeah, what 373 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: you said in blazon. The first thing I was like 374 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: they have merch you know, like you know, this is 375 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: that's one way to spread the word. Yeah, totally, Um 376 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: and we too. I actually don't think we have merged 377 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: at the time of this recording, but we we do 378 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: have advertisers, and some of them are hopefully the Pirates Store. Yes, 379 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: we're manifesting. Yeah, here's some ads and we're back. So 380 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: the Wild Fry they're there. They're self organized, right, they 381 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: don't have this like overarching structure, but they do sometimes 382 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: form into these larger coalitions, sometimes not. There's thousands of 383 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: these bands and they all have fucking weird, fantastic names. 384 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: Some of them are Black Love, Red Oath, Fear Not Death, 385 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: Bloody Bones, Dirty Guys, Forest and Field Sleepers, Tortoises, Brandy Frush, 386 00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: Black Flag, Forest Pirates, or the Northern Lights. Well. I 387 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: love that it's like the Legends of the Hidden Temple, 388 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: like the team names. Yeah, it's like, well, I'll get 389 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: to why it sounds like fantasy in a second. It's 390 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: one of the things I love about it. Um Okay. 391 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: They also they all had their own distinct styles of dress, 392 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: which um and they basically the basic idea was take 393 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: some idea from fantasy literature and just fucking run with it. 394 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: Just basically like, try to live like you're in a 395 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: fantasy novel um, they're like, what's the what's the cult? Uh, 396 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: what's the thing. When you're role playing, it's like LARPing. LARPing, 397 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: it's like laping. It's like laping. Yeah, but but for 398 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: really very creative and yeah. And so they and unlike 399 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the rest of the Vondervogel movement, which 400 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: was fairly middle class, almost all of these are working 401 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: class kids. And basically they're like, well, a fantasy life 402 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: that sounds better than starving, right, And so some of 403 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: them would dress up as like American frontiersman. Others would 404 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: dress up like pirates, somewhere in stereotypical German garb and 405 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: like leader hosen and ship. Others were like sader knights um. 406 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: Some were caricatures of indigenous Americans. All of them wore 407 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: at a wise flowers, the single symbol that like united 408 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: all of them and gave them the eventual name the 409 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: Oedowise Pirates, and they were into tattoos, including on their genitals. 410 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: Girls and boys both wore earrings and when the various gangs, 411 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite details. I ran Chris, 412 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: one of various gangs would meet up together, though instead 413 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: of all wearing their like different colors from their different clicks. 414 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: They all wore like top hats and tailcoats and like 415 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: the finest, like fancy clothes that I'm sure they stole. 416 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: And I want to look up when wise flower looks 417 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: like because I want I want to visualize their merch. 418 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: Oh wow, oh that's a really it's like a starfish. 419 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, huh yeah, they're like for anyone's listening there, 420 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: they're pretty white flowers with like yellow I don't know 421 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: anything about biology botany. I definitely never seen one before. 422 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: It's very unique looking, but okay, cool. I have a 423 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: visual um the most influential fantasy author for them, which 424 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: is it's kind of funny. Is this guy named Carl May. 425 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: Who is this nineteenth century adventure novel author who's you 426 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: know I'm going with this, no, no, oh yeah, this 427 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: is Hitler's favorite author, favorite author. May yea did not 428 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: know that there's a hole behind the Bastard's episode about 429 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: about Hitler and about how he loves uh Carl May. Wow, 430 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: old friend, I don'd how Carl felt. Oh man, this 431 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: is like, I mean, you know, Robert describes Carl May 432 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: as the J. K. Rowling of their day. Oh interesting, 433 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: That's all I need to know. That's all I need 434 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: to know. But I want to know because I think 435 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: of like I'm in a metal band that takes a 436 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: lot of inspiration from Tolkien, and so are a lot 437 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: of Nazi metal bands, right, and so I think of 438 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: it like that, you know, But I haven't read any 439 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: Carl May um. But anyway, so these Carl may LARPers 440 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: who like rob people into sex work. Hey, a few 441 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: years ago a modern queer sex worker focused radical publishing 442 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: project called Underbelly translated some of their songs from German. 443 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: And so I'm not gonna sing it unfortunately, I'm sorry everyone, 444 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: um dar, but my my favorite is just making fun 445 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: of the Hitler youth for being too masculine and NORMI 446 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: and it's called short hair, big ears, Such short hair, 447 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: such big ears. That means the Hitler youth must be here, 448 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: grow long hair, tango nights. There's no Hitler youth in sight. 449 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: Oh ho oh ho. And one hears the words on 450 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: every street. There's no Hitler youth. I'd like to meet 451 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: o ho o ho. And they're fucking poets. Come on, 452 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: that's amazing, amazing, um. And most of them are like 453 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: fourteen eighteen. I'll get into that more. Uh, but that's 454 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: the age where you kind of feel like invincible, right, Like, 455 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: that's the damn I would have been all over that. Yeah. Um. 456 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: They made their living as delivery drivers in various unskilled positions, 457 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: petty crime, non petty crime, sex work, especially at various 458 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: gay bars throughout the city. And honestly, one of the 459 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: reasons I love them so much as they just sound 460 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: like my friends. That's just like a description of what 461 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: my friends do. Um, and especially when we were younger. Um. 462 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: And then they would pull all their money and then 463 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: use it to pay off all their criminal finds that 464 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: they incur or to support their arrested friends, and they 465 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: go to juvenile detention and jail and ship constantly, and 466 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: they break out of juvenile detention constantly, Like the study. 467 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: The study I read of fifty wild fry who had 468 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: been held in detention, almost all of them had broken 469 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: out at least once, and six of them had broken 470 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: out of detention centers more than twenty times individuals. That 471 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: is incredible. Well yeah, yeah, I know. And the more 472 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: they faced repression, the more they just resent mainstream society. 473 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: This is even before the Rise of the nazis a 474 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff. They just resent mainstream society and 475 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: they retreat further and further into their fantasy worlds. Um 476 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: in the city column where the movement is strongest. They 477 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: coordinated all their gangs, which they called guilds into of course, 478 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: they're called guilds, yeah, of course, right, yeah, And they 479 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: coordinate them into rings, which are coalitions of each guild 480 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: of guilds by district. And then each guild had a 481 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: had a leader called a gang bull, and the bulls 482 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: of each guild would together elect the ring bull. And 483 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: to be a bull, you had to prove that you're strong, brave, 484 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: good at crime and down to fun down to fun, 485 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: like good at criming down to fun. Yes, all kinds 486 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: of weird ways. Um. And at least one gang, the 487 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: Eagles of the Mountains, everyone in it was a bull 488 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: because they were like no leaders, I guess, um. And 489 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: each bowl had a queen, which I think might have 490 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: been of either sex, but I'm not entirely sure. All 491 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: male gangs had a beloved who is expected to be 492 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: sexually available to everyone in the gang. Um. Since some 493 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: gangs didn't let girls in, girls formed their own all 494 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: girl gangs. And then some boys wanted to join the 495 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: all girl gangs, and so the girls let them in. 496 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: And I appreciate that because that would have been me. 497 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: I would have been the boy being like can I 498 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: join the girl gang? Though? Yeah, I mean girls are 499 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: nicer than yeah, yeah man. But I also was thinking, 500 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: like just guilds and all these little factions and stuff. 501 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: This is like I r L World of warcraft, you 502 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: know what I mean, This is just like factions and 503 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: battle and like whatever, like wow, that's art is life 504 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: and life are I suspect these kids weren't bored very often, 505 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, um and okay, So each new member, when 506 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: they would join, was initiated through bizarre and ceremonial baptisms, 507 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: which were elaborate rituals of violence and sex. Uh. They 508 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: would start off with fist fights and knife fights and 509 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: then turn into public sexuality like fucking everyone in the gang, 510 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: or masturbating in front of everyone, or getting off during 511 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: sex fast enough, like literally someone sending a stopwatch and 512 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: you've like get off fast enough. So it's like hazing, 513 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: but like for badass yeah yeah totally. Um, it's like 514 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: way more like you're cool enough to be cool. Yeah, 515 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: and it's hard for me to imagine the frat where 516 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: the haziness. Now you've got to funk all of us. Um, 517 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: but you know whatever, also a mixed gender frat um 518 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: and they would all descend into drunken orgies every time 519 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: someone knew was baptized. And there's actually there's I should 520 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: have saved them in a file to make them easily available, 521 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: but there's actually photos of some of these um. Some 522 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: of the like weird likeness, like people dressed like pirates 523 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: with knives and all kinds of weird ship and they 524 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: would they lived in the forests and in squats in 525 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: the cities. They would like each each crew would have 526 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: it each each guild would have its own squad basically 527 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: um addicts or sellers or on unused storage rooms and 528 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: they would put a single bed in the middle and 529 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: they called it the fucking sofa and that was like 530 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: the only sleeping space. I mean, I'm sure they slept 531 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: on the floor, but and they would just like I 532 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: would not if I wasn't on this podcast, I wouldn't 533 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: think this was true. No, I know, and like and 534 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: so so I'll say that my main source of this 535 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: is Daniel Garin's account of talking to of the more 536 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: like crime sex stuff is talking to a sociologist a 537 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: social workers sorry at the time, who did a study 538 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: on these people, and that study is replicated in a book, 539 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: The Brown Plague. Um. But yeah, like because a lot 540 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: of the later stuff that we hear about otherwise, pirates 541 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: just doesn't talk about their drunken orgies at all, um, 542 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: But stuff gets raised all the time, right, like as 543 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: we've learned from this podcast and just life. Yeah, totally okay. 544 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: So they would like, like one account I was reading, 545 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: they like they would steal and sell cars, and then 546 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: they would like in their stolen car, they would like 547 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: drive around and like I don't remember exactly, was like 548 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: the guy who steals the car, he's like known his 549 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: like a car guy that's like his name or whatever, 550 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: you know. Um, And then they like go around and 551 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: rip off payphones. I didn't even know they had payphones 552 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: back then, but they would like go and like rip 553 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: off payphones and then try and get all the money 554 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: out that they couldn't throw them in the river or whatever. Um. 555 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: And they would fence all their stolen goods through bartenders 556 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: in exchange for alcohol and this gets and this leads 557 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:38,959 Speaker 1: a lot of them. A lot of them end up 558 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: like in debt to these bartenders, and then like when 559 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: they age out of the wild fry, they just enter 560 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: like a more mainstream life of crime, for better or worse. 561 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: I don't even consider that they would age out. Actually, 562 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: now that you say that out loud, I know, you 563 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: can't stay a wild fry if you're not a small fry. 564 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: You have to be fire self committing crime all of 565 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: a sudden. I don't know, yeah, I know, I know. 566 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: And it's like because one of the things that this 567 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: reminds me so much of when I was like a 568 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: teenage squatter. Um, but I did most of that one 569 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: was like nineteen and twenty, and so I'm a little 570 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: bit like, oh, I would have been too old to 571 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: be you know. Yeah, And that's funked up. That's not fair. Yeah, 572 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: it's like Harry Peter Panty lost boys about them, you 573 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: know what. I'm totally yeah, it is just Peter Pan's army. Yeah. Okay. 574 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: So the Nazis come to power and they refused to disband, 575 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: and in a lot of cities they're powerful enough that 576 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: they completely just challenge the hedgemony of the Hitler youth. 577 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: In some cities they outnumber the Hitler youth UM. And 578 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: one of the slogans that they had at the time 579 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: was eternal war against the Hitler Youth. And yes, yes, 580 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: And so they did resistance in a lot of ways 581 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: right like um, just by existing. They continuing to like 582 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: hike and camp and wander their resisting Nazi era um 583 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: travel restrictions. But they they weren't hent with only doing that, 584 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: and so it wasn't long before they go from like 585 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: street fights with the Nazi the Hitler youth to distributing propaganda, 586 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: like when the Allies would drop leaflets on the city, 587 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: the wild Fry would run around and like stick the 588 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: leaflets through people's doors and ship um they help people 589 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: desert from the Nazi army. They would rob Nazi warehouses 590 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 1: and uh, you know eventually started like killing Nazis who 591 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: needed a good killing. Um. And actually what you're talking about, 592 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: like aging out. I think that I think that the 593 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: war like Fox up the best I can tell the 594 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,239 Speaker 1: war like Fox up there, you know, sort of like 595 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: their specific organizational structure, it becomes a lot looser and 596 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: so some of the people that you know who get 597 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: hanged and stuff for this activity are like formal edelwise 598 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: pirates and shipped like that right, um, And so they're 599 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: still hanging out with like sixteen year olds doing all 600 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: these crimes together. Um, And a lot of them get 601 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: caught and get sent to concentration camps on November, thirteen 602 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: of them or thirteen people six them who are teenagers 603 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: and some of them are formal otherwise pirates get executed 604 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: without trial and cole and I believe for for theft, 605 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: murder and planning to blow up a Gestapo headquarters. This 606 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: is the like most known thing that that they were doing. 607 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: Forgive me you mentioned this, But like demographically what are 608 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: most of them? Are they just like mixed like ethnicity wise? 609 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: Oh okay, they do so they are both Aryan and Jewish, 610 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: or at least they specifically refused to disallowed Jews. I 611 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: could not tell you what percent of the movement was Jewish. Um. 612 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: Probably I don't know. I know that historically they allowed 613 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: in Uh. That was like a thing that distinguished them 614 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: from a lot of it is that they were like 615 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: what funk all that? Um? It was like kind of 616 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: started I would assume by like Aryan people, but that 617 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: that were good, probably, but I couldn't tell you. I 618 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: couldn't tell you about Jewish proticipation in the beginning. I 619 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 1: was just trying to imagine them for whatever reason, when 620 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: imagine something badass and doing stuff, They're not white, so 621 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: I have to rerange. Yeah, totally. Yeah, we're considering like 622 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of Germans at this point are not 623 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: like really doing their best, you know. Um, so like 624 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: I see my prejudice now, I'm just gonna um, I 625 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: think that's fair. Yeah yeah, and um and so so 626 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: plenty of historians. So they run into this problem where 627 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: they're not seen as political, uh, which in a sense 628 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: it's true, right, because they were not friends of polite society, 629 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: any polite society. They were criminals under the Weimar Republic. 630 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: There were criminals under the Nazis, and they continued to 631 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: be criminals when the Allies liberated the country. The wild 632 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: fry and Soviet controlled areas were treated really harshly. In 633 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: many of them were sentenced to twenty five years in prison. Um. 634 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: And because they're working class criminals, they were never acknowledged 635 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: their anti fascist work until two thousand eleven, when and 636 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: the families of the Edelwise pirates who are killed never 637 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: received like reparations from the German and state on like 638 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: other partisans. Um. And the last known surviving at a 639 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: Wise pirate was a woman named Gertrude Cook. Uh coach, 640 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: I don't know who died at the age of ninety two. 641 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: Well it's a long life. Yeah, you know who else survives? 642 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: The people who drink tap water and eat potatoes? The 643 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: sponsors of this show you will live forever. And this 644 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: is especially funny because now I've been learning about the 645 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: more about potatoes because I listen to buying the bastards, 646 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: which I feel terrible to admit on this show. Um, 647 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: how could you? I know? And I'm learning people only 648 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: what a hack podcast? I wonder who produces that show. 649 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: But anyway, here's some ads from tap water, potatoes and 650 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: whatever else gets mixed in there. And we are back 651 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: and we are talking about pirates. Yes, when you first 652 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: started with the pirates, I don't I've never heard of 653 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: the otherwise pirates. But I was curious what definition of 654 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: pirate you're going to use, like the actual like people 655 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: that were pirates on you know what I mean? Because yeah, 656 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: exactly or like just but it's just really funny that 657 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: they're just like dress like pirates and they do pirty things. 658 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 1: It's all like they're I don't know, it's just kind 659 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: of funny to see it all come together totally imagination. 660 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean they lived really similar lives to 661 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: like Golden Age pirates, but they like we're doing it 662 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: in costume, you know, yeah, which fucking rules honestly, Like 663 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 1: it's it's it's yeah. It's like, especially at the time, 664 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: it's like if the world is going to ship, just 665 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: you live once, you know, like that's the I don't know, 666 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: it's it's I like the uninhibited nature of their life. Yeah, 667 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: I do too, jesus. Yeah. And then one of the 668 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: things I like about them is like it doesn't seem 669 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: like it was like a a gay culture as in, 670 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: like some of them are gay, and some of them 671 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: are heterosexual, and some of them are by it was 672 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: just fucking weird, Like I don't think any of them 673 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: knew their sexuality. Some of them probably cared, and some 674 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: of them probably didn't. And like they definitely weirdos unite, 675 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: right sorry yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, I mean 676 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: just like weirdoes all unite. Right, So it's like when 677 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: you're in high school, the outcast are altogether, whether they're 678 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: like people of color or gay or whatever. Like that's 679 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: what happened to my experience anyway. Or like when you're Yeah, 680 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: if you're what's the word, um, marginalized, marginalized exactly, if 681 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: you're marginalized and you're fucking weird, you will unite because 682 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: you want a weird community and weird. Honestly, I think 683 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: it's a great thing. You should be weird being a normy, boring, 684 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, so stay weird. Hell yeah, totally. And then okay, 685 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: so the So these aren't the only queers fighting the 686 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,959 Speaker 1: Nazis within German any um. Far from it. I'm gonna 687 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: tell you about some more some more of them. There's 688 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: a gad Beck who was a gay part Jewish Berliner 689 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: who in two he borrows a Hitler youth uniform and 690 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: he marches into the pre deportation camp where his lover 691 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: man Fred, is being detained. So he shows up in 692 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: his uniform and he goes to the commanding officer and 693 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, I need I need to borrow this 694 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: guy for a minute on a construction project. And so 695 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: the request is granted, and the you know, when he 696 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: starts out the camp with with his lover Manfred, but 697 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: then Manfred stops and he says, I can't leave my 698 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: family basically, and he he goes back into the back 699 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: into the camp. He dies him and his family. Um. 700 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: But he basically said, you know, if I will never 701 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: be free if I'm not free with my family. Um. 702 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: But so then gad Beck spends the next three years 703 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: helping Jews escape before he gets betrayed by a fucking 704 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: a Jewish spy for the Gestapo. Um and he gets arrested. 705 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: But he survives the war. So this is gonna be 706 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: another one of those like who lives, Who dies? Yeah, 707 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: little list of me just listening intently until the very end. 708 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, yeah, well not of the next one. 709 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: Maybe the next one we better Yeah, well then this, 710 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: you know, so this guy survives the war and he 711 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: spends his lover doesn't but he does. Well it's nice 712 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: that like, even after his lover doesn't go with him, 713 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: he's actually true, like you know what I mean, he 714 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: keeps doing fighting the good fight totally. He doesn't just 715 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: sunk off, which would be exactly perfectly fair. I am 716 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: not judging anyone who sucks off out of a place 717 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: is trying to murder them, you know, yeah, exactly. And 718 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: he he lives to be eighty eight and he spends 719 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: the last thirty five years of his life with his partner. Um. 720 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: So I like when that's a good ending, Yeah, thank 721 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: you others yeah okay. So then there's a Count Albrecht 722 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: von Bernstaff who's a gay aristocrat and he's this. He's 723 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: a short balding man. He's always impeccably dressed, and he 724 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: wastes mostly war years sitting around cafes hitting on waiters. 725 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: Or that's what he wants people to think. I mean, 726 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: he he does. He is these things. He's a short baulding, 727 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 1: well dressed man who hits on a lot of waiters. 728 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: But he's actually he's he's playing up the like foppish 729 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: aristocratic gay man stereotype, um to draw attention from his 730 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: actual work, which is he's running an underground railroad helping 731 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: Jews and other dissidents get themselves out of Germany. Um 732 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: that's genius, I know. And like that does take like 733 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: front and center, you know, like put the gay out 734 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: front and then let me do my secret good job. Yeah, totally. Um, 735 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: this one could keep him distracted. Yeah, he's like, oh, 736 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: I'm just a creepy, harmless old gay guy, you know. 737 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: Like uh. And and he's so aristocratic and I kind 738 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: of love him for this. He's so aristocratic that he 739 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: figures like, alright, I'm doing something that is obviously illegal, 740 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: being being gay, but I'm so rich that everyone puts 741 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: up with it. Yeah, exactly. Power. I think it was 742 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: the last episode. Maybe it was, Yeah, it was last, 743 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: but like or you can you can get away with more? Yeah, 744 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: totally uh and yeah, because because and money, power and money. Sorry, 745 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: Like I have a lot of inside thoughts that are 746 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,919 Speaker 1: just I think, and they say it out loud, even 747 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: if it's like not even my right timing. But I 748 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: think that's the point of a podcast. Why my podcast cast, 749 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: because otherwise it would be me talking to myself and 750 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: that would be half as interesting. But no, money and power. 751 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: That's how you hack life, unfortunately, I know. And it's 752 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,720 Speaker 1: like all across history, if you're poor and gay, you're fucked, 753 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: And if you're rich and gay, you're just eccentric, you know, Yes, 754 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: very true, like Oscar Wilde. Yeah, totally, although it only 755 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: sort of works out for him different points. Yeah, but 756 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: still but that was a bad example whatever, No, no, no, no, 757 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: it is. It is a good example because like he's 758 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: able to exist in that way at all because of 759 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: that kind of exactly Yeah, who was accepted as what 760 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: he was versus Yeah. Anyway, Um, so the so the 761 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: so Count Albrecht he he coordinates with gay resistance groups 762 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands And to quote an anonymously written article 763 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: that's coming from an upcoming issue of a magazine called 764 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: Batten that the author let me read before, Count Albrecht 765 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: had warned his contacts in Holland about the Nazi invasion 766 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: before it began, so they could prepare themselves. In one instance, 767 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: members of a gay society took measures ahead of the 768 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: German invasion. In preparation for the catastrophe. The editor of 769 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:27,280 Speaker 1: their paper, Levin Strict, burned the organization's mailing list. Another comrade, 770 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: Aren't Vin saut Hoorst, committed the entire list to memory 771 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 1: so that they could find one another afterwards. And I 772 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: really like that because I like because when I first 773 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: started doing this, like everyone's like keeping these records and 774 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: it keeps getting them all in trouble, right, and so 775 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, what do you what do you fucking do 776 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: and burn your fucking records? Right, But then the guy 777 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: who memorizes it all makes reminds me that I'm like, well, 778 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: it was so hard for them to find each other 779 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: in the first place. That like losing that is losing 780 00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: something really important, you know. Yeah, memorizing in that's what. 781 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: That's a great solution if you're able to do that, 782 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, totally mohammed of the profit of mom. He 783 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: memorizes the Koran you know how to read it rite, 784 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: so it works. Look at him now he's done. Well, yeah, 785 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 1: I've heard of him, you know. Praise. Yeah. So eventually 786 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: Count Albrett gets gets found out, and he gets arrested, 787 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: and he gets into a series of concentration camps and 788 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: he gets really horrendously tortured. Um. But his his fellow inmates, 789 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: they remember him based on how he kept everyone's spirits up. 790 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: Like he would he'd be sitting around in the concentration 791 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: camp and he'd be like, we're all going to have 792 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: a most fabulous party at my house when this is 793 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: all done. You are all invited. Everyone's coming over, Like, 794 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm you know, break out all the finest stuff, best 795 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: party ever and um, and he he didn't survive the camps. 796 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: He died in the camps. Um, But I don't know. 797 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: Hundreds of people, at least Jews and gays and gay 798 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: Jews and at least two different countries survived the war 799 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: because of his efforts and him disguising himself himself as 800 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: a fop, you know, and playing into the like being like, oh, yes, 801 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: homosexuals are cowards, we would never do anything bad, you know, 802 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: use the stereotype to your benefit, just like you know 803 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: what I mean, it's or like that benefit but like 804 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: your advantage. Yeah uh yeah, Well what a guy. I know, 805 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: I like him. Um okay. And one of the things 806 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: that it's kind of dark that I ran across in 807 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: a lot of this research, a lot of the gay 808 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: men who survived the concentration camps get immediately re arrested 809 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: because they're gay, because you're not allowed to be gay, 810 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: whether it's Nazi Germany or Soviet Union. While East Germany 811 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: at least the Soviet Union had more complicated Oh yeah, right, 812 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: I think Hitler had re I know that, like Lenin 813 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: made homosexuality legal, and then Stalin was like j K 814 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: all you. Um. But um, anyway, one guy, for example, 815 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 1: that I was reading about, I don't have his name 816 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 1: in front of me. Um. He wasn't as much of a 817 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: a resistance fighter, although just existing his resistance. I'm not 818 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: trying to like knock him. Um. He retold his experience 819 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: where he was taken back literally in front of the 820 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: same judge that had sentenced him to a concentration camp previously, 821 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: because they didn't actually get rid of the fucking Nazis, 822 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: they just like cut off the head of it. Yeah. Um, 823 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: so he gets sent back to the same judge he's 824 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: like you again and then sentences him right back to prison. Um. 825 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:25,879 Speaker 1: That makes me so mad. People empower stay in power ultimately. Yeah, Okay, 826 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: I want to end with with one last short story 827 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: about a queer poet named Robert desns and he was Yeah, 828 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 1: he was heavily involved in the French surrealist scene. Um, 829 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 1: and he joins the resistance of Germany. Once you know, 830 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: francis under occupation and like our Dutch heroes from last 831 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: episode or last Monday whatever I know how to say, 832 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: is this a new episode? Is this just the different 833 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,759 Speaker 1: half of the same episode. I don't understand the taxonomy 834 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: of my own job. It's a two part Okay. In 835 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: the last part of this two part episode, um perfect, thanks, thanks, 836 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm good at my job. So uh. He works as 837 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: a counterfeiter and he makes fake I d s. And 838 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,720 Speaker 1: he also does a ton of other stuff. He actually 839 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: works for a collaborationist newspaper as a spy, and he 840 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: passes along all the information he learns by working for 841 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,760 Speaker 1: a shitty pro German newspaper. He passes it along to 842 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: to the Resistance. He also wrote for underground papers under 843 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: a ton of different names, and he gets caught and 844 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: he gets sent to a series of concentration camps. But 845 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: at heart, right, this guy's a surrealist. So one day, 846 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: according to Holocaust, Holocaust survivor named a debt and it's relayed. 847 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: This story is relaid through a writer named Susan Griffin. 848 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: So Robert's waiting in line for the fucking gas chamber 849 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: and and he just jumps up and runs up to 850 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: a man who's ahead of him in line, and he 851 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,720 Speaker 1: just gets really excited and he starts reading the man's 852 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: palm and he's like, look here, look at your lifeline. 853 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: You're going to live a long life, and you're gonna 854 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: have three children, and his absurd as them, right, because 855 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: they all know what's happening, all right. I think it's 856 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: his absurdism is so contagious that everyone's just like breaking 857 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: out laughing, and it confuses the guards so completely that 858 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: the guards sent them back to their barracks because they 859 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: don't know how to handle these people who are supposed 860 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: to just be like totally given up, who are like 861 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: riotlessly riotously, who are laughing very hard, uncontrollably, and wow, 862 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: that's so fascinating. And he he doesn't die in a 863 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:38,400 Speaker 1: gas chamber. Um. He used the phrase unexecuted in your script. 864 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: Everyone gets sent back to the barracks unexecuted, as the 865 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: way I wrote it. Yeah, and he technically survives the war, 866 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: but he caught typhoid I believe, in the concentration camp, 867 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: and he dies within a month of liberation. Um. But 868 00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:04,360 Speaker 1: again that doesn't seem right. I know the thing, okay. 869 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: But the reason I want to end on that note 870 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,319 Speaker 1: is because I think people look at some of this 871 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: history wrong, at least like queer history. Um, because they're like, oh, 872 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: did they succeed, Like a lot of the stuff I 873 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: would read being like, oh, they didn't succeed because they died, 874 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 1: or they didn't succeed because they only blew up eight 875 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: hundred thousand records instead of three million records or whatever. Right, um, 876 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: but they it's to me, it feels like they succeeded, right. 877 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: They they chose resistance and a lot of them, most 878 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 1: of them didn't survive the war. But they say fucking 879 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,800 Speaker 1: thousands of people, and I don't know they died fighting, 880 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like if they did die 881 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 1: in a way that they shouldn't have, Like it's just 882 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: a testament to like, I don't know, caring more about 883 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: the world and yourself and like I don't know, I 884 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,360 Speaker 1: don't know where I'm going. I don't know what the 885 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,840 Speaker 1: end when I started. Um, but I think it's pretty badass. 886 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: I think that they like they basically they proved a 887 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,280 Speaker 1: fucking lot and they certainly proved like our man Willem 888 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: said at the beginning that homosexual is not a fucking 889 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 1: synonym for a week, which is what people used to 890 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: treat it as um And and no one can say 891 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 1: that they were cowards, you know, no one. Yeah, definitely not. 892 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,919 Speaker 1: That's the last thing would be. I was thinking though 893 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: not to like yes and but yes, and it uh 894 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 1: like the vast majority of these people that we learned 895 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:32,440 Speaker 1: about are our men, correct, So it is interesting just 896 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,600 Speaker 1: to think, like how many more people there were that 897 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: maybe didn't get like attention or history and about them, 898 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: or that were who were I mean, there's a there's 899 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: a spattering of women wore in there, for sure, But 900 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: it does make me wonder if again it goes back 901 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 1: to power. As a man, you have more power, right, 902 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: and maybe that's why you're able to accomplish more especially 903 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,919 Speaker 1: I mean back to that, and now what am I saying? 904 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: But it's interesting to think about who gets written about, 905 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 1: even like alt history, because as I'm a filmmaker, I 906 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: want to say in quotes, but come on, I should 907 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: like me whatever imposters ENDM one oh one, but imposter 908 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:18,040 Speaker 1: syndrome is real. And but I was reading about like 909 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,399 Speaker 1: writing like scripts and movies and stuff, and how we're 910 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,040 Speaker 1: so used to just pretending that Western story structure is 911 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: like the default way to tell stories and we forget 912 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: that like so many cultures have different ways of telling stories, 913 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,120 Speaker 1: and like it's like Bollywood films are structures, so differently 914 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: than ours, and we just we assume ours is the 915 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,320 Speaker 1: right default way. And I think that's the same with 916 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: just everything. That's all. You didn't mention that this is 917 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: the westernized version of it, But it just makes me 918 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,719 Speaker 1: wonder what else is out there, because I know there 919 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: are more amazing people out there. Maybe maybe we don't 920 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: have to know about them. Just to know they existed 921 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: is enough. I don't know if that made any sense. No, No, 922 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: I think that that actually gets at something really important. Um. 923 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: One of the things that I kept running across with 924 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: this is like I think I feel certain that there 925 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: was as many you know, lesbians fighting against the Nazis 926 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:11,800 Speaker 1: right as there were gay men. And most of the 927 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: people with names that are coming up with are gay men, 928 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: and I think partly that's because they get written about 929 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: for being gay in a way that a lot of 930 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: the women aren't being written about. Um. And then like 931 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,719 Speaker 1: it's actually telling that the Edlwise pirates who were a 932 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 1: mixture of boys and girls, right, Um, they that's not 933 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,839 Speaker 1: a story full of names. You know, there are some 934 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,359 Speaker 1: names we have for that, but mostly you have these 935 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: like anonymous masses of like mixed group of queer kids 936 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: who are like, all right, let's sunk up these Nazis 937 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,839 Speaker 1: and they don't get fucking remembered except kind of collectively. 938 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know whether that's better or 939 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: worse or different or whatever, but it does it. You're right, 940 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,320 Speaker 1: it leads to this, like you know, the which stories 941 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: get told absolutely exactly. No, yeah, I think about this 942 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,360 Speaker 1: stuff all the time because I mean I don't know 943 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 1: even like, yeah, the history stories or whatever, like what 944 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,560 Speaker 1: what we've even gotten as a civilization about like what 945 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: we've learned and from our past centuries of existence, Like 946 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,799 Speaker 1: even that is curated, you know what I mean. It's 947 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: like it just we just live in a matrix and 948 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,800 Speaker 1: it's real. But um, but no, I I'm really happy 949 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: to have learned all of this stuff from you today 950 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:36,320 Speaker 1: and on Monday two days ago because we're not recording 951 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,879 Speaker 1: at the same time. But but no, I I hope 952 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: it makes other people think about this kind of stuff too, 953 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 1: because it doesn't have to be like this default way 954 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,359 Speaker 1: of thinking of like, oh, this is just the way 955 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: things are because this is the way they are. Is 956 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,600 Speaker 1: it the way they are because this is how they 957 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,320 Speaker 1: always have been because certain people make it this way 958 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. So it's I don't know, just 959 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: using your brain to philosophize. I think sometimes a good 960 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:05,479 Speaker 1: thing and like do some shrooms or something. Every other 961 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,040 Speaker 1: podcast about them like shrooms. But if you're able to 962 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,160 Speaker 1: it's I think it's the cure for things or just 963 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:25,839 Speaker 1: seeing the world in a different way. Can I shut up? Good? Okay, 964 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: I'm shutting up though. Um yeah, when I when I 965 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,959 Speaker 1: saw shrooms, I saw the void. It was really bad 966 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: and dark for months. But okay, I stay correct, but 967 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: my experience is not the I'm certainly not anti people 968 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: messing around with this kind of stuff. You know, I 969 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: gave it multiple shots. I shouldn't have made a blanket. 970 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,799 Speaker 1: You're right, No, No, I mean, but people should. I 971 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 1: don't know. There's all kinds of blankets better dangerous. You know. 972 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 1: All I meant to say was like, expand your mind 973 00:53:54,840 --> 00:54:00,319 Speaker 1: and like I like that. I'm leaving this recording being like, you, what, 974 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: maybe we're not so bad? Hell yeah? Would you say 975 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: that there's cool people who did cool stuff? You know? 976 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,279 Speaker 1: I would say that there are cool people that did 977 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:19,239 Speaker 1: cool stuff. Mentioned it, but thank you for having me 978 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,959 Speaker 1: letting me ramble to no end. This was really fun. 979 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: Oh thanks so much for being on. Come back again, 980 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: please please, I would love to come back and learn 981 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:33,359 Speaker 1: more good things about good people, cool cool things about 982 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,760 Speaker 1: what am I doing. I'mussing get all up, cool things 983 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,640 Speaker 1: about cool people who happened to be good doing good. 984 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing it again. I'm gonna stop talking. This is 985 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: the end of my sentence. Now Sharene before we send 986 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,479 Speaker 1: you off. Is there anything you would like to plug? Yeah, 987 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 1: I'm Sharene. You can follow me on the internet if 988 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: you want. Twitter Shiro Hero six six six and Instagram 989 00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: is just Shiro Hero Um. I make films, write poetry. 990 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: I have a couple of poetry books out that I 991 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:08,800 Speaker 1: self published. What's the newest one called um Archives. Yeah, 992 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,319 Speaker 1: it's basically just emo diaries I've decided to publish. It's 993 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:17,840 Speaker 1: very personal. Uh but yeah, that's just my I'm honest 994 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,800 Speaker 1: to a fault. And if you want to follow along, great. 995 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,440 Speaker 1: If you don't like me rambling, good because I'm going 996 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:28,320 Speaker 1: to stop now. Margaret plugs anything. You can also follow 997 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,760 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Magpie kill Joy, where I try 998 00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,879 Speaker 1: to be clever because Twitter is just this awful competition. 999 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: It's like an arena of people trying to um acquire 1000 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 1: enough clout to not starve by being clever and having 1001 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: all the right takes. And I always always but were 1002 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: you were you? Were you on Twitter when it was 1003 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,200 Speaker 1: just like a place to like say your thoughts out loud. 1004 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: I looked at and the dumbest ship. It's like Facebook 1005 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,319 Speaker 1: status is or like whatever where it's just like I'm hungry, Yeah, 1006 00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to fail my test. And now it's just 1007 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,360 Speaker 1: instead of being like a random thought catalog. It's definitely 1008 00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: this one upping the arena of death. Yeah, speaking speaking 1009 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,360 Speaker 1: of death, can I can I uh plug? Jamie Loftus 1010 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,000 Speaker 1: is Ghost Church that's on cool Zone Media as well. 1011 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 1: That will be will be out by the time this 1012 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,480 Speaker 1: this episode drops, So check that out. Ghost Church by 1013 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:32,320 Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, Queen future guest of this podcast, Jamie Future 1014 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: Guests of this podcast, Jamie Loftus. I also produce that one, 1015 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,560 Speaker 1: so check it out. Sophie produces all podcasts I think 1016 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,759 Speaker 1: you've already heard me say. Yeah, legally all podcasts are mine, 1017 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,760 Speaker 1: except except for once again, the Joe Rogan Podcast actually 1018 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,880 Speaker 1: a YouTube show. Yes legally distinct, Yes, yes, thank you, 1019 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,440 Speaker 1: and we'll be back Monday Right, Margaret yea Next Monday, 1020 00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: Forever until the heat death of the universe. Cool by 1021 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 1022 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,240 Speaker 1: cool zone Media. For more podcasts on cool zone Media, 1023 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,239 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 1024 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,080 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1025 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.