WEBVTT - What Were You Thinking? — Bonus | Ashley's Story

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<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning with some big Betrayal news.

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<v Speaker 1>I have been on location with some of the people

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<v Speaker 1>you heard in season two, Ashley Avea and their family

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<v Speaker 1>to shoot a docuseries for Hulu. I'll let you know

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<v Speaker 1>when the docuseries available on Hulu later this year. We're

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<v Speaker 1>all so excited to announce that Betrayal will become a

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<v Speaker 1>weekly series starting this summer. Thanks to your support of

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast, we'll be able to bring you many real

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<v Speaker 1>life stories of betrayal, making this community even stronger. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you've been thinking about sharing your story, now is

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<v Speaker 1>the time. Email has a Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>share some news that affects and children everywhere. Our second

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<v Speaker 1>season of Betrayal focus on families destroyed by child sexual

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<v Speaker 1>abuse material also called see SAM. The National Center for

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<v Speaker 1>Missing and Exploited Children has reviewed over three hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two million images and videos of child sexual exploitation.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hard to wrap your head around that. It's why

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<v Speaker 1>we couldn't stay away from the topic last season. It's

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<v Speaker 1>also been a big issue in Washington recently. Betrayal producer

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<v Speaker 1>Kerrie Hartman has been following developments. Carrie, I know you

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<v Speaker 1>watched it. What did you see?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I watched it. It was fascinating. The Senate Judiciary Committee,

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<v Speaker 2>they subpoened five CEOs of some of the biggest tech

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<v Speaker 2>companies Discord, Snap, Meta X, you know formerly Twitter, and TikTok,

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<v Speaker 2>and the committee wants to advance several bills that address

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<v Speaker 2>online safety for children. And this hearing it got a

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<v Speaker 2>ton of publicity, and at the beginning Senate Judiciary Chair

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<v Speaker 2>explained how the committee was feeling.

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<v Speaker 3>These apps have changed the ways we live, work, and play,

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<v Speaker 3>but as investigations have detailed, social media and messaging apps

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<v Speaker 3>have also given predators powerful new tools to sexually exploit children.

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<v Speaker 3>Your carefully crafted algorithms can be powerful force in the

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<v Speaker 3>lives of our children. Today we'll hear from the CEOs

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<v Speaker 3>of those companies. Their constant pursuit of engagement and profit

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<v Speaker 3>over basic safety have all put our kids and grandkids

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<v Speaker 3>at risk. But the tech industry alone is not to

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<v Speaker 3>blame for the situation we're in. Those of us in

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<v Speaker 3>Congress need to look in the mirror.

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<v Speaker 2>This was a major issue for two New York Times

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<v Speaker 2>supporters that you talk with earlier this season.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, why don't we actually revisit that interview with Gabriel

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<v Speaker 1>Dance and Michael Keller.

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<v Speaker 4>We spoke with people who said that as early as

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<v Speaker 4>two thousand, tech companies knew this was a very serious

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<v Speaker 4>problem and we're doing nothing to solve it. In two

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<v Speaker 4>thousand and nine, when they introduce scanning technology, we knew

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<v Speaker 4>that it could be effective in helping stem the problem.

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<v Speaker 4>Still tech companies were not using it.

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<v Speaker 5>I would say if you talk with most technology policy people,

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<v Speaker 5>their answer would be technology companies don't have that much

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<v Speaker 5>pressure to get rid of harmful content on their platform

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<v Speaker 5>because Section two thirty of the Communications Decency Act shields

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<v Speaker 5>technology companies from any liability for content that users post.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you explain more about what section two thirty does?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay? So, Section two thirty means any lawsuit holding a

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<v Speaker 2>tech company liable for damages won't go anywhere they have immunity.

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<v Speaker 2>So if Facebook court Snapchat or ex as storing or

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<v Speaker 2>transmitting images of c SAM, for example, parents can't hold

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<v Speaker 2>the company responsible. And try to imagine if it was

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<v Speaker 2>your child's photo and if that child was tricked into

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<v Speaker 2>sending it but Section two thirty was passed almost thirty

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, back in nineteen ninety six. No one could

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<v Speaker 2>have imagined back then TikTok or Instagram or even sex stortion.

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<v Speaker 2>People still had their photos developed at the drug store.

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<v Speaker 2>And I have to tell you how real this is.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this happened to a close friend of mine,

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<v Speaker 2>to her child. You take a vulnerable kid and a

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<v Speaker 2>savvy adult with no conscience and no barriers.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So why was there a hearing now?

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<v Speaker 2>It seems in recent months that frustration with tech's immunity

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<v Speaker 2>is just getting bigger on both sides of the aisle.

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<v Speaker 2>And look, this isn't the first time Congress has summoned

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<v Speaker 2>tech leaders for a shaming session. But I was really

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<v Speaker 2>curious was this more than a shaming session? So I

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<v Speaker 2>reached out to Politico technology reporter Rebecca Curred. She was

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<v Speaker 2>in the room for this whole thing, and she shared

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<v Speaker 2>some of her thoughts.

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<v Speaker 6>Oh interesting, I've been covering efforts in Congress to regulate

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<v Speaker 6>social media companies and how they handle kids online safety issues.

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<v Speaker 6>Typically there's a lot of posturing from the senators, but

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<v Speaker 6>in the room, it was very palpable. The emotion because

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<v Speaker 6>this time, the committee members invited families whose children have

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<v Speaker 6>died as a result, they say, of content they've been

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<v Speaker 6>exposed to on the platforms. A number of children have

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<v Speaker 6>committed suicide over cyberbullying, over a new phenomenon that I

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<v Speaker 6>know you guys have covered in the podcast called sextortion,

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<v Speaker 6>where organized criminal groups create fake accounts that opposed to

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<v Speaker 6>be other children and extort elicit images from children and

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<v Speaker 6>then hold them financially.

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<v Speaker 2>My gosh. Yeah, And the committee chair Dick Durbin co

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<v Speaker 2>sponsored the stop Ceesam bill. That bill would hold platforms

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<v Speaker 2>responsible if they host cesam or make it available. And

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<v Speaker 2>you're probably thinking, well, who would make those images available?

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<v Speaker 2>But haven't you ever searched for something like you just

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<v Speaker 2>took up skiing recently, right, so you want to see

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<v Speaker 2>more image of a skiing and then the platform's algorithm

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<v Speaker 2>recommends more content because they think that you like that. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>it does the same thing with nefarious and dangerous content.

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<v Speaker 2>And Senator Ted Cruz went after Meta on exactly that point.

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<v Speaker 7>Missus Szuckerberg and June of twenty twenty three, The Wall

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<v Speaker 7>Street Journal reported that Instagram's recommendation systems were actively connecting

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<v Speaker 7>pedophiles two accounts that were advertising the sale of child

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<v Speaker 7>sexual use material. In other words, this material wasn't just

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<v Speaker 7>living on the dark corners of Instagram. Instagram was helping

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<v Speaker 7>pedophiles find it by promoting graphic hashtags including hashtag pedhore

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<v Speaker 7>and hashtag preteen sex to potential buyers. Instagram also displayed

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<v Speaker 7>the following warning screen to individuals who were searching for

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<v Speaker 7>child abuse material. These results may contain images of child

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<v Speaker 7>sexual abuse. And then you gave users two choices, get

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<v Speaker 7>resources or C results anyway in what sane universe? Is

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<v Speaker 7>there a link for C results anyway?

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<v Speaker 1>How did Mark Zuckerberg respond to that.

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<v Speaker 2>There's no good answer for that, But here's what he said.

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<v Speaker 8>Well, because we might be wrong, we try to trigger

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<v Speaker 8>this this warning, or we tried to when we think

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<v Speaker 8>that there's any chance that there is.

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<v Speaker 2>OK. Here's more from Rebecca Kerrn.

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<v Speaker 6>Tech companies will admit and it is for sure not

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<v Speaker 6>something they want on their platforms. They don't want to

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<v Speaker 6>be hosting CCM, and they take great efforts to remove it,

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<v Speaker 6>and I will give them credit. They invest millions of

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<v Speaker 6>dollars into AI and machine learning to detect it early.

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<v Speaker 6>But it's still there and it gets spread across multiple platforms.

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<v Speaker 1>These companies are self pleasing and self reporting, but we're

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<v Speaker 1>depending on them to find it and shut it down.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting that you bring that up because a senator

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<v Speaker 2>from Rhode Island, Senator Sheldon white House commented exactly on

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<v Speaker 2>that issue.

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<v Speaker 9>We are here in this hearing because as a collective,

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<v Speaker 9>your platforms really suck at policing themselves. In my view,

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<v Speaker 9>Section two thirty is a very significant part of that problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Listen, there were great soundbites from senators, but that doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>translate to policy right. Rebecca Kern pointed out that Section

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<v Speaker 2>two thirty served an important purpose, at least for a while.

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<v Speaker 6>We wouldn't be leading the globe in these innovations without

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<v Speaker 6>Section two thirty allowing them to flourish without lawsuits. But

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<v Speaker 6>a lot of other senators are saying, Okay, we allowed

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<v Speaker 6>them to flourish and grow. Now we need to raten

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<v Speaker 6>them in and we're an outlier in the whole globe.

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<v Speaker 6>Europe has been able to pass regulations and hold them accountable,

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<v Speaker 6>and so a lot of people say it's time to

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<v Speaker 6>take away this quote unquote sweetheart deal that we have

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<v Speaker 6>given to tech companies.

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<v Speaker 1>Did any comments stand out to you while you were watching?

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<v Speaker 2>There were a lot of them, but this one from

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<v Speaker 2>Amy Klobrichar kind of got me.

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<v Speaker 10>When a Boeing plane lost a door in mid flight

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<v Speaker 10>several weeks ago, nobody questioned the decision to ground a

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<v Speaker 10>fleet of over seven hundred planes. So why aren't we

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<v Speaker 10>taking this same type of decisive action on the danger

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<v Speaker 10>of these platforms when we know these kids are dying?

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<v Speaker 1>She has a point, right, when everyone is worried about

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<v Speaker 1>their own physical safety.

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<v Speaker 2>Boom, it's done exactly. And I got to tell you

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<v Speaker 2>about another moment that really took the room down, and

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<v Speaker 2>that was when Meta CEO Zuckerberg testified that social media

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't really do any harm to kids.

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<v Speaker 8>With so much of our lives spent on mobile devices

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<v Speaker 8>and social media, it's important to look into the effects

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<v Speaker 8>on team mental health and well being. I take this

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<v Speaker 8>very seriously. Mental health is a complex issue, and the

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<v Speaker 8>existing body of scientific work has not shown a cause

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<v Speaker 8>a link between using social media and young people having

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<v Speaker 8>worse mental health outcomes.

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<v Speaker 1>Did he say that with a straight face?

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<v Speaker 2>He did, and there was some laughter. I mean, it

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<v Speaker 2>was one very short moment of levity. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just so absurd. You don't have to be a

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<v Speaker 2>social scienceist or a psychologist to understand that social media

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<v Speaker 2>impacts kids a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there anyone there defending the work of technology companies?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are ways they've enriched all of our lives.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you even remember life before Amazon?

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<v Speaker 2>Life before Amazon? We mean going to a store and

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<v Speaker 2>having to wait in line? No, of course, not no,

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<v Speaker 2>but all kidding aside. Some senators mentioned that and did

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<v Speaker 2>praise these companies for adding some value to society. But

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<v Speaker 2>this hearing wasn't set up for pushback. It was really

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<v Speaker 2>about these tech companies being told draconian measures are coming

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't do a better job. But outside of this,

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<v Speaker 2>there is an advocate for the tech company called net Choice,

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<v Speaker 2>and they are pushing back pretty hard. They have filed

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<v Speaker 2>several lawsuits against states that are tired of waiting for

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<v Speaker 2>the federal government to do something.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give me an example.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, there's one. Net Choice is suing the Ohio Attorney

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<v Speaker 2>General over the Social Media Parental Notification Act. This law

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<v Speaker 2>requires companies to obtain parental consent before individual's younger than

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<v Speaker 2>sixteen can use platforms like Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Snapchat. So

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<v Speaker 2>ne choice does not support any of these bills being

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<v Speaker 2>pushed by the Judiciary Committee. What do they support, well,

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<v Speaker 2>free speech is what they hang their hat on. Free speech,

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<v Speaker 2>Free speech all the way. But one thing that they

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<v Speaker 2>did promote that we'll be familiar to our season two

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<v Speaker 2>listeners is to hold child abusers accountable by prosecuting more

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<v Speaker 2>of them. You know, far too many reports of c

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<v Speaker 2>SAM offenses are not investigated, not prosecuted. Because we talked

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<v Speaker 2>about this, Andrea like their triage right, there's not enough

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<v Speaker 2>law enforcement to go after all the people that are

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<v Speaker 2>breaking these laws, and when they're able to go after them,

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<v Speaker 2>they can prosecute them and at least put them in

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<v Speaker 2>for some kind of prison time. But despite that choice,

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<v Speaker 2>there was some movement on one of the bills called KOSA,

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<v Speaker 2>or the Kids Online Safety Act. Now, this bill wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>repeal Section two thirty, so we asked Rebecca Kerrn, what would.

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<v Speaker 6>It do that one specifically, would hold tech companies accountable

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<v Speaker 6>and imposing a duty of care for them to make

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<v Speaker 6>sure that their recommendation systems, their algorithms do not recommend

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<v Speaker 6>harmful quote content. That is the key word, how do

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<v Speaker 6>you define harmful for them, They're saying it's suicide content,

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<v Speaker 6>it's eating disordered content.

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<v Speaker 2>And Rebecca pointed out that some groups are worried about

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<v Speaker 2>KOSA moving forward.

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<v Speaker 6>Progressive LGBTQ groups are saying, we're worried that this bill

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<v Speaker 6>also empowers state at Traded General to sue over harmful content.

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<v Speaker 6>And how they would define content maybe like trans content

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<v Speaker 6>or LGBTQ content that these communities would want to see

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<v Speaker 6>on the platforms. Some conservative liing ags may want to

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<v Speaker 6>take that down. So they said this could have an

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<v Speaker 6>inadvertently negative impact for certain vulnerable youth.

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<v Speaker 2>While the CEOs were on the hot seat, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the day before they were called to the hearing, they

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<v Speaker 2>did make some concessions that are worth mentioning. Here is

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<v Speaker 2>X CEO Lida yak Areina X.

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<v Speaker 11>Supports the Stop c SAM Act. The Kids Online Safe

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<v Speaker 11>DAC should continue to progress and we will support the

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<v Speaker 11>continuation to engage with it and ensure the protections of

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<v Speaker 11>the freedom of speech.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, SNAP CEOs Evan Spiegel also came out

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<v Speaker 2>in support of KOSA and look, it's not everything, but

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<v Speaker 2>maybe it's a start. Here's Politico's Rebecca Kurrent.

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<v Speaker 6>Again, these are the constant battles these platforms have to

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<v Speaker 6>deal with between privacy, which is such a strong protection

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<v Speaker 6>in our country, and free speech and other protection and

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<v Speaker 6>safety and there's you know, no real mandate to put

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<v Speaker 6>safety first.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think Section two thirty has a chance of

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<v Speaker 1>being repealed?

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<v Speaker 2>I asked re Becca that question, and she seemed pretty doubtful.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's not just the law passing, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's the lawsuits that would follow, and how many years

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<v Speaker 2>would it be caught up in court.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't help, but wonder did this hearing make a difference.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're asking will it create more safety for children online?

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<v Speaker 2>I think there is a reason for hope. There was

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<v Speaker 2>some movement we've never seen before. But people need to

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<v Speaker 2>keep applying pressure because that does make a difference.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you to Politico's Rebecca Kern for her insight, and

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<v Speaker 1>thanks to our listeners for your support of Betrayal. Remember

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to share your story for the new

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<v Speaker 1>weekly series of Betrayal coming this summer, email us at

0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at

0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.800
<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,

0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.320
<v Speaker 1>a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.760
<v Speaker 1>The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,

0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.640
<v Speaker 1>posted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, Written and produced

0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.120
<v Speaker 1>by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman, Associate producer

0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck.

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.640
<v Speaker 1>Audio editing and mixing by Matt Alvecchio. Betrayal's theme composed

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<v Speaker 1>by Oliver Bains. Music library provide by my Music and

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.359
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>or wherever you get your podcasts.