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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning with some big Betrayal news.

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Speaker 1: I have been on location with some of the people

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Speaker 1: you heard in season two, Ashley Avea and their family

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Speaker 1: to shoot a docuseries for Hulu. I'll let you know

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Speaker 1: when the docuseries available on Hulu later this year. We're

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Speaker 1: all so excited to announce that Betrayal will become a

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Speaker 1: weekly series starting this summer. Thanks to your support of

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Speaker 1: this podcast, we'll be able to bring you many real

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Speaker 1: life stories of betrayal, making this community even stronger. So

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Speaker 1: if you've been thinking about sharing your story, now is

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Speaker 1: the time. Email has a Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. I want to

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Speaker 1: share some news that affects and children everywhere. Our second

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Speaker 1: season of Betrayal focus on families destroyed by child sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse material also called see SAM. The National Center for

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Speaker 1: Missing and Exploited Children has reviewed over three hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty two million images and videos of child sexual exploitation.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to wrap your head around that. It's why

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Speaker 1: we couldn't stay away from the topic last season. It's

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Speaker 1: also been a big issue in Washington recently. Betrayal producer

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Speaker 1: Kerrie Hartman has been following developments. Carrie, I know you

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Speaker 1: watched it. What did you see?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I watched it. It was fascinating. The Senate Judiciary Committee,

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Speaker 2: they subpoened five CEOs of some of the biggest tech

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Speaker 2: companies Discord, Snap, Meta X, you know formerly Twitter, and TikTok,

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Speaker 2: and the committee wants to advance several bills that address

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Speaker 2: online safety for children. And this hearing it got a

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Speaker 2: ton of publicity, and at the beginning Senate Judiciary Chair

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Speaker 2: explained how the committee was feeling.

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Speaker 3: These apps have changed the ways we live, work, and play,

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Speaker 3: but as investigations have detailed, social media and messaging apps

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Speaker 3: have also given predators powerful new tools to sexually exploit children.

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Speaker 3: Your carefully crafted algorithms can be powerful force in the

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Speaker 3: lives of our children. Today we'll hear from the CEOs

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Speaker 3: of those companies. Their constant pursuit of engagement and profit

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Speaker 3: over basic safety have all put our kids and grandkids

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Speaker 3: at risk. But the tech industry alone is not to

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Speaker 3: blame for the situation we're in. Those of us in

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Speaker 3: Congress need to look in the mirror.

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Speaker 2: This was a major issue for two New York Times

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Speaker 2: supporters that you talk with earlier this season.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't we actually revisit that interview with Gabriel

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Speaker 1: Dance and Michael Keller.

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Speaker 4: We spoke with people who said that as early as

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Speaker 4: two thousand, tech companies knew this was a very serious

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Speaker 4: problem and we're doing nothing to solve it. In two

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Speaker 4: thousand and nine, when they introduce scanning technology, we knew

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Speaker 4: that it could be effective in helping stem the problem.

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Speaker 4: Still tech companies were not using it.

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Speaker 5: I would say if you talk with most technology policy people,

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Speaker 5: their answer would be technology companies don't have that much

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Speaker 5: pressure to get rid of harmful content on their platform

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Speaker 5: because Section two thirty of the Communications Decency Act shields

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Speaker 5: technology companies from any liability for content that users post.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain more about what section two thirty does?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So, Section two thirty means any lawsuit holding a

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Speaker 2: tech company liable for damages won't go anywhere they have immunity.

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Speaker 2: So if Facebook court Snapchat or ex as storing or

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Speaker 2: transmitting images of c SAM, for example, parents can't hold

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Speaker 2: the company responsible. And try to imagine if it was

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Speaker 2: your child's photo and if that child was tricked into

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Speaker 2: sending it but Section two thirty was passed almost thirty

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Speaker 2: years ago, back in nineteen ninety six. No one could

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Speaker 2: have imagined back then TikTok or Instagram or even sex stortion.

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Speaker 2: People still had their photos developed at the drug store.

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Speaker 2: And I have to tell you how real this is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this happened to a close friend of mine,

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Speaker 2: to her child. You take a vulnerable kid and a

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Speaker 2: savvy adult with no conscience and no barriers.

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Speaker 1: Right, So why was there a hearing now?

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Speaker 2: It seems in recent months that frustration with tech's immunity

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Speaker 2: is just getting bigger on both sides of the aisle.

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Speaker 2: And look, this isn't the first time Congress has summoned

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Speaker 2: tech leaders for a shaming session. But I was really

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Speaker 2: curious was this more than a shaming session? So I

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Speaker 2: reached out to Politico technology reporter Rebecca Curred. She was

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Speaker 2: in the room for this whole thing, and she shared

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Speaker 2: some of her thoughts.

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Speaker 6: Oh interesting, I've been covering efforts in Congress to regulate

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Speaker 6: social media companies and how they handle kids online safety issues.

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Speaker 6: Typically there's a lot of posturing from the senators, but

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Speaker 6: in the room, it was very palpable. The emotion because

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Speaker 6: this time, the committee members invited families whose children have

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Speaker 6: died as a result, they say, of content they've been

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Speaker 6: exposed to on the platforms. A number of children have

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Speaker 6: committed suicide over cyberbullying, over a new phenomenon that I

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Speaker 6: know you guys have covered in the podcast called sextortion,

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Speaker 6: where organized criminal groups create fake accounts that opposed to

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Speaker 6: be other children and extort elicit images from children and

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Speaker 6: then hold them financially.

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Speaker 2: My gosh. Yeah, And the committee chair Dick Durbin co

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Speaker 2: sponsored the stop Ceesam bill. That bill would hold platforms

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Speaker 2: responsible if they host cesam or make it available. And

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Speaker 2: you're probably thinking, well, who would make those images available?

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Speaker 2: But haven't you ever searched for something like you just

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Speaker 2: took up skiing recently, right, so you want to see

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Speaker 2: more image of a skiing and then the platform's algorithm

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Speaker 2: recommends more content because they think that you like that. Well,

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Speaker 2: it does the same thing with nefarious and dangerous content.

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Speaker 2: And Senator Ted Cruz went after Meta on exactly that point.

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Speaker 7: Missus Szuckerberg and June of twenty twenty three, The Wall

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Speaker 7: Street Journal reported that Instagram's recommendation systems were actively connecting

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Speaker 7: pedophiles two accounts that were advertising the sale of child

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Speaker 7: sexual use material. In other words, this material wasn't just

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Speaker 7: living on the dark corners of Instagram. Instagram was helping

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Speaker 7: pedophiles find it by promoting graphic hashtags including hashtag pedhore

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Speaker 7: and hashtag preteen sex to potential buyers. Instagram also displayed

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Speaker 7: the following warning screen to individuals who were searching for

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Speaker 7: child abuse material. These results may contain images of child

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Speaker 7: sexual abuse. And then you gave users two choices, get

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Speaker 7: resources or C results anyway in what sane universe? Is

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Speaker 7: there a link for C results anyway?

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Speaker 1: How did Mark Zuckerberg respond to that.

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Speaker 2: There's no good answer for that, But here's what he said.

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Speaker 8: Well, because we might be wrong, we try to trigger

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Speaker 8: this this warning, or we tried to when we think

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Speaker 8: that there's any chance that there is.

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Speaker 2: OK. Here's more from Rebecca Kerrn.

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Speaker 6: Tech companies will admit and it is for sure not

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Speaker 6: something they want on their platforms. They don't want to

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Speaker 6: be hosting CCM, and they take great efforts to remove it,

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Speaker 6: and I will give them credit. They invest millions of

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Speaker 6: dollars into AI and machine learning to detect it early.

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Speaker 6: But it's still there and it gets spread across multiple platforms.

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Speaker 1: These companies are self pleasing and self reporting, but we're

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Speaker 1: depending on them to find it and shut it down.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that you bring that up because a senator

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Speaker 2: from Rhode Island, Senator Sheldon white House commented exactly on

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Speaker 2: that issue.

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Speaker 9: We are here in this hearing because as a collective,

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Speaker 9: your platforms really suck at policing themselves. In my view,

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Speaker 9: Section two thirty is a very significant part of that problem.

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Speaker 2: Listen, there were great soundbites from senators, but that doesn't

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Speaker 2: translate to policy right. Rebecca Kern pointed out that Section

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Speaker 2: two thirty served an important purpose, at least for a while.

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Speaker 6: We wouldn't be leading the globe in these innovations without

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Speaker 6: Section two thirty allowing them to flourish without lawsuits. But

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Speaker 6: a lot of other senators are saying, Okay, we allowed

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Speaker 6: them to flourish and grow. Now we need to raten

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Speaker 6: them in and we're an outlier in the whole globe.

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Speaker 6: Europe has been able to pass regulations and hold them accountable,

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Speaker 6: and so a lot of people say it's time to

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Speaker 6: take away this quote unquote sweetheart deal that we have

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Speaker 6: given to tech companies.

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Speaker 1: Did any comments stand out to you while you were watching?

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Speaker 2: There were a lot of them, but this one from

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Speaker 2: Amy Klobrichar kind of got me.

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Speaker 10: When a Boeing plane lost a door in mid flight

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Speaker 10: several weeks ago, nobody questioned the decision to ground a

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Speaker 10: fleet of over seven hundred planes. So why aren't we

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Speaker 10: taking this same type of decisive action on the danger

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Speaker 10: of these platforms when we know these kids are dying?

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Speaker 1: She has a point, right, when everyone is worried about

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Speaker 1: their own physical safety.

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Speaker 2: Boom, it's done exactly. And I got to tell you

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Speaker 2: about another moment that really took the room down, and

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Speaker 2: that was when Meta CEO Zuckerberg testified that social media

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Speaker 2: doesn't really do any harm to kids.

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Speaker 8: With so much of our lives spent on mobile devices

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Speaker 8: and social media, it's important to look into the effects

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Speaker 8: on team mental health and well being. I take this

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Speaker 8: very seriously. Mental health is a complex issue, and the

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Speaker 8: existing body of scientific work has not shown a cause

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Speaker 8: a link between using social media and young people having

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Speaker 8: worse mental health outcomes.

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Speaker 1: Did he say that with a straight face?

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Speaker 2: He did, and there was some laughter. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was one very short moment of levity. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just so absurd. You don't have to be a

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Speaker 2: social scienceist or a psychologist to understand that social media

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Speaker 2: impacts kids a lot.

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Speaker 1: Was there anyone there defending the work of technology companies?

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are ways they've enriched all of our lives.

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Speaker 1: Can you even remember life before Amazon?

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Speaker 2: Life before Amazon? We mean going to a store and

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Speaker 2: having to wait in line? No, of course, not no,

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Speaker 2: but all kidding aside. Some senators mentioned that and did

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Speaker 2: praise these companies for adding some value to society. But

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Speaker 2: this hearing wasn't set up for pushback. It was really

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Speaker 2: about these tech companies being told draconian measures are coming

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Speaker 2: if you don't do a better job. But outside of this,

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Speaker 2: there is an advocate for the tech company called net Choice,

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Speaker 2: and they are pushing back pretty hard. They have filed

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Speaker 2: several lawsuits against states that are tired of waiting for

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Speaker 2: the federal government to do something.

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Speaker 1: Can you give me an example.

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Speaker 2: Sure, there's one. Net Choice is suing the Ohio Attorney

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Speaker 2: General over the Social Media Parental Notification Act. This law

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Speaker 2: requires companies to obtain parental consent before individual's younger than

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Speaker 2: sixteen can use platforms like Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Snapchat. So

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Speaker 2: ne choice does not support any of these bills being

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Speaker 2: pushed by the Judiciary Committee. What do they support, well,

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Speaker 2: free speech is what they hang their hat on. Free speech,

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Speaker 2: Free speech all the way. But one thing that they

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Speaker 2: did promote that we'll be familiar to our season two

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Speaker 2: listeners is to hold child abusers accountable by prosecuting more

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Speaker 2: of them. You know, far too many reports of c

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Speaker 2: SAM offenses are not investigated, not prosecuted. Because we talked

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Speaker 2: about this, Andrea like their triage right, there's not enough

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Speaker 2: law enforcement to go after all the people that are

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Speaker 2: breaking these laws, and when they're able to go after them,

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Speaker 2: they can prosecute them and at least put them in

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Speaker 2: for some kind of prison time. But despite that choice,

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Speaker 2: there was some movement on one of the bills called KOSA,

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Speaker 2: or the Kids Online Safety Act. Now, this bill wouldn't

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Speaker 2: repeal Section two thirty, so we asked Rebecca Kerrn, what would.

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Speaker 6: It do that one specifically, would hold tech companies accountable

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Speaker 6: and imposing a duty of care for them to make

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Speaker 6: sure that their recommendation systems, their algorithms do not recommend

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Speaker 6: harmful quote content. That is the key word, how do

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Speaker 6: you define harmful for them, They're saying it's suicide content,

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Speaker 6: it's eating disordered content.

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Speaker 2: And Rebecca pointed out that some groups are worried about

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Speaker 2: KOSA moving forward.

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Speaker 6: Progressive LGBTQ groups are saying, we're worried that this bill

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Speaker 6: also empowers state at Traded General to sue over harmful content.

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Speaker 6: And how they would define content maybe like trans content

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Speaker 6: or LGBTQ content that these communities would want to see

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Speaker 6: on the platforms. Some conservative liing ags may want to

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Speaker 6: take that down. So they said this could have an

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Speaker 6: inadvertently negative impact for certain vulnerable youth.

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Speaker 2: While the CEOs were on the hot seat, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the day before they were called to the hearing, they

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Speaker 2: did make some concessions that are worth mentioning. Here is

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Speaker 2: X CEO Lida yak Areina X.

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Speaker 11: Supports the Stop c SAM Act. The Kids Online Safe

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Speaker 11: DAC should continue to progress and we will support the

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Speaker 11: continuation to engage with it and ensure the protections of

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Speaker 11: the freedom of speech.

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Speaker 2: And you know, SNAP CEOs Evan Spiegel also came out

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Speaker 2: in support of KOSA and look, it's not everything, but

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Speaker 2: maybe it's a start. Here's Politico's Rebecca Kurrent.

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Speaker 6: Again, these are the constant battles these platforms have to

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Speaker 6: deal with between privacy, which is such a strong protection

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Speaker 6: in our country, and free speech and other protection and

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Speaker 6: safety and there's you know, no real mandate to put

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Speaker 6: safety first.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Section two thirty has a chance of

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Speaker 1: being repealed?

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Speaker 2: I asked re Becca that question, and she seemed pretty doubtful.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not just the law passing, but it's

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Speaker 2: it's the lawsuits that would follow, and how many years

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Speaker 2: would it be caught up in court.

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Speaker 1: I can't help, but wonder did this hearing make a difference.

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Speaker 2: If you're asking will it create more safety for children online?

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Speaker 2: I think there is a reason for hope. There was

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Speaker 2: some movement we've never seen before. But people need to

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Speaker 2: keep applying pressure because that does make a difference.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to Politico's Rebecca Kern for her insight, and

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Speaker 1: thanks to our listeners for your support of Betrayal. Remember

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Speaker 1: if you want to share your story for the new

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Speaker 1: weekly series of Betrayal coming this summer, email us at

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Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,

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Speaker 1: posted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, Written and produced

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Speaker 1: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman, Associate producer

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Speaker 1: Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck.

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Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Matt Alvecchio. Betrayal's theme composed

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Speaker 1: by Oliver Bains. Music library provide by my Music and

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.