1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Hey Max, Hello Becca. So you and I went to 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: a bar in downtown Manhattan when it was still extremely 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: cold out, and we went to talk to people about 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: the gender pay gap. We wanted to hear what the 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: average person on the street has to say about this stuff. 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: One of the first guys we talked to works for 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: the state of New York. At first he told us 8 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: he believed in the pay gap, and even saw him 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: one of his previous workplaces. But then after talking to 10 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: him for a little while, he told us what he 11 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: really thought. What I could see in my current position, 12 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: if there's a gap, it's not twenty cents on the dollar. 13 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: But if that was in fact true, Yes, of course 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: that's not right. But it is true as far as 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: I know, that really is what the data shows. I think, 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: yes it is. So this guy knows women are paid less, 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: but the number he hears it it just doesn't sound 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: right him. He looks around, he sees things getting better 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: for women. He just doesn't buy that things could really 20 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: be so bad. I don't think it's a conspiracy um, 21 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: but yes, I think maybe maybe somewhat overlown, especially nowadays, 22 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: it's a lot of different than it was even ten 23 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: years ago. So while I recognize that probably is somewhere 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: of a gap, I think that gap is getting smaller. 25 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: I think there's more opportunities for women these days to 26 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: advance in their career. Then he said something that reminded 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: me of what I hear in my reporting all the time. 28 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: It's not that the pay up isn't real exactly, but 29 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: that I misunderstanding the data. Basically, the data doesn't show 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: what I say it does. You could look at data, 31 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: I could look at data, She could look at data, 32 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: and we could all come up with our own numbers. 33 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a black and white thing. There's 34 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: a very great area when you look at the world. 35 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: You know what the population like, where is our place like? 36 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: Where is our value? Will deserve people for equal work? 37 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: This woman, we almost put this gender bias and ourselves, 38 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: and nationwide the median salary for men is greater than 39 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: women in ninety nine point six percent of major occupations women. 40 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: What do very watch? We want to end gender inequality, 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: and to do this we need everyone involved. Well, actually 42 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: it's the feminist celebrities and politicians spreading this wage camp 43 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: myth who have the math problems. Ginger Rogers did everything 44 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: that Freda Stare did. She just did it backwards did 45 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: in I Welcome back to the Paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: This week we are going to investigate the gray areas 47 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: in the data. We've heard from listeners who feel like 48 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: the guy from the Bar, and we've also heard from 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: people who don't believe in the pay gap at all. 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: They say that figure the gap between what women and 51 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: men make in the US is misleading, that it's just 52 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: an average that doesn't control for people in the same 53 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: industries or doing the same job. This is a common 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: critique of pay gap reporting. Here's Britt Hume on Fox 55 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: News making that same case. Women make different choices about 56 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: what kinds of jobs they seek in reaction to marriage 57 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: and childbirth when those things have taken into consideration. Studies 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: have indicated that the pay gap all but evaporates. That phrase, 59 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: all but evaporates. I heard a lot that the pay 60 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: gap disappears when you control for things like the fields 61 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: women tend to work in and the time they take 62 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: off to care for their families. The pay gap does 63 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: get smaller when you control for certain things. But no 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: matter how much Matthew do, it never disappears when you 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: control for job title, company, and industry. One study found 66 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: that there's still a five point four percent pay gap 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: in the US that's unexplained. We know pay discrimination is 68 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: still happening, and that's not right or fair. But I 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: also want to talk about another part of this argument 70 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: that women make choices to focus on family rather than 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: work and that's why we earn on average less than men. 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: Is that what's really happening. The research does show that 73 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: women start off at near parody with men in their careers, 74 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: but after having a kid the gap widens. Is this 75 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: because women are choosing parenting over working in high paid 76 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: jobs because that's what they value. I think that it's 77 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: a more complicated story than simply that women value family 78 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: more than careers. I think the whole workplace is really 79 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: set up so that it's harder for women to be 80 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: parents than it is for men. That's Robin Ealie. She's 81 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: a business administration professor at Harvard, and she recently co 82 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: wrote an article with Kathy Tinsley, a management professor at Georgetown, 83 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: called What Most People Get Wrong About Men and Women. 84 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: When she talks about how the workplace is set up 85 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: better for men, than women. She's partly talking about the 86 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: rigid nine to five work day and how that makes 87 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: it harder to say, pick up your kids from school. 88 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: It's challenging for anyone, regardless of gender, to work a 89 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: full time job and take care of kids, but we 90 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: expect women more than men to make it work. And 91 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: to make it work, women shift to jobs with fewer demands, 92 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: flexible schedules, or telecommuting options. The culture is telling them 93 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: that once you become a mother, to be a good mother, 94 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: you really need to take those accommodations, whereas for men, 95 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: it's saying, you know, you really shouldn't take those accommodations 96 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: because your role is as the bread winner. So men 97 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: tend to wratch it up after they have kids, and 98 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: women will be more likely to wratch it back. So 99 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: the culture and the organization interpret what people should be 100 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: doing once they have children. This idea that we expect 101 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: women to do less at work when they have a 102 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: child and men to do more. It shows up in 103 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: the data. Women's earnings decrease four then for every child 104 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: she has. Men's earnings actually increase six percent when they 105 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: have kids. These are known as the motherhood penalty and 106 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: the fatherhood bonus. And even when men and women both 107 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: act the same at work, the stereotypes we have about 108 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: women can hurt their earnings. Here's Kathy Tinsley, Robin's co author. So, 109 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: when somebody is absent from a meeting, there's oftentimes uncertainties 110 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: about why that is occurring. Right, you don't have perfect 111 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: information incorporations about what everybody is doing all the time. 112 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: And what happens is when you have imperfect information, your 113 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: brain doesn't really like that in perfect information, and so 114 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: it fills in that imperfect information with assumptions, with educated 115 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: guesses about what that missing information is. And people use 116 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: gender stereotypes as a way of helping them fill in 117 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: missing information. And so, what can happen in any meeting 118 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: where a man may be absent, The assumption is more 119 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: likely to be, oh, he could be at another client meeting, 120 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: or he you know, had some emergency come up that 121 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,559 Speaker 1: was also work related, right, whereas I, if a woman 122 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: is doing it, it would be more likely to be uh, 123 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: family related assumption. So, even if women and men do 124 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: the same things at work, we imagine a woman's work 125 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: is suffering because of her family, whereas we don't assume 126 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: the same thing about a man. Then there's that other 127 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: point that pay gap skeptics make that women make different 128 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: choices about what kinds of jobs we seek. As we've 129 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: talked about on the show before, women do tend to 130 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: work in jobs that pay less, like teaching and secretarial work. 131 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: Last week we showed you that those jobs pay less 132 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,239 Speaker 1: because women do them. But is working in these jobs 133 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: always a choice? Take technology, it's a well paid and 134 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: male dominated field. If women aren't rising to the top 135 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: or succeeding as coders and engineers, some people say it's 136 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: because they're just not interested in it or not good 137 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: at it, and that feeds into this general idea that 138 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: women don't have the aptitude for math, coding, or other 139 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: skills that happen to lead to high paying jobs. We're 140 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: just choosing jobs, lower paying jobs that we just happened 141 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: to be suited for. Well, there's a couple of things 142 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: that are going on there. The first is our women 143 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: as good at math as men, and the answer there 144 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: is yes. Um Shelby Hide has been doing research for 145 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: decades and all of her research shows that the gap 146 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: between men and women in math ability is small to negligible. 147 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: You could call it trivial. Then the question becomes, well, 148 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: if there aren't any inherent differences between men and women 149 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: and math ability, then why is it that women aren't 150 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: entering some fields and men are entering them. One theory 151 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: that Robin brings up is that those fields they aren't 152 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: hospitable to women. That's where you have to look into 153 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: the context. What is it that men and women experience 154 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: arians in the workplace and are they given the same 155 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to thrive? That question, are women given the same 156 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: opportunity as men to thrive? We know that women and 157 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: men do have different experiences at work, like women experience 158 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: much higher rates of workplace harassment, and that actually pushes 159 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: them out of the highest paying jobs in fields. Research 160 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: has found that when women get harassed, they go to 161 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: safer jobs, and the more female dominated jobs have much 162 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: fewer reports of workplace harassment, and those jobs they pay less. 163 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: But there are more subtle ways our experiences are different too. 164 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: There are all kinds of messages that tell women they 165 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: don't belong in the higher tiers of a company. Does 166 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: it mean the same thing to strive for a particular job? 167 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: Is it harder on women to perform in a job 168 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: where they have power over other people, probably because the 169 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: stereotype is that women aren't supposed to want to have power, 170 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: they aren't supposed to want to be ambitious and so um. 171 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: So it's just it's just harder to live in those jobs. 172 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: When we talk about the gender pay gap, we're not 173 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: talking about people in power, mostly men, conspiring to pay 174 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: women less. There's no grand conspiracy, just a bunch of 175 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: systems that don't work well for professional women because they 176 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: were never designed to. As hard as the aggregate number 177 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: is to understand, even when we hear stories from individual 178 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: women that are telling us exactly how much less they're making, 179 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: we don't always see it as a part of the 180 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: pay gap. Our next story is about a time a 181 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: woman pointed out something that seemed unfair and the world 182 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: came back at her with a million reasons why she 183 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: can't be mad about it. Earlier this year, comedian and 184 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: actress Monique went public about a salary negotiation with Netflix 185 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: that went south. She said she was offered way less 186 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: to do a comedy special than what famous men and 187 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: white women had been paid it. She asked her fans 188 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: to do something kind of major boycott Netflix. Her story 189 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: went viral, but not in a good way. People didn't 190 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: rally behind Monique like they rallied behind other women in Hollywood. 191 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: They told her she didn't deserve more money to say, 192 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: what kind of reactions was I expecting? I don't. I 193 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: wasn't expecting the reaction of, oh, we'll just do it 194 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: because Monique said it. I was expecting for us to 195 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: research what it is that I'm saying. Jordan Holman spoke 196 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: to Monique about her experience. In January, Monique posted a 197 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: video on Instagram. This was not a typical Monique post. 198 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: Her feed is mostly clips of her working out and dancing, 199 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: or promoting the podcast she does with her husband, Sydney. 200 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: Most of the time, she starts her videos with hey 201 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,719 Speaker 1: my Babies. On that Sunday, she went script, hey my 202 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: loves I am asking that you stand with me and 203 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: Boycotton Netflix for gender bias and color bias. I was 204 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: off for a five dollars dere last week to do 205 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: a comedy special. However, Amy Sheen was offred eleven million dollars, 206 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle twenty million dollars. A popular 207 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: fan revolt from Netflix didn't happen. The general reaction was 208 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: not pro Monique. In blog posts and tweets, comedy fans 209 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: were skeptical about the comedians called to action. Words like delusional, loudmouth, 210 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: and ignorant were being thrown around. A few people defended Monique, 211 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: but most said she was basically stepping outside of her lane. 212 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: Here's Tony Rock, Chris Rock's brother, talking to TMZ. She's 213 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: calling it color bias and gender bias in her words 214 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: on stage long She's been a long time, and I 215 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: thought it was expressly interesting that people were reacting like 216 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: this is to Monique. At the start of this year, 217 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: which was also at the height of the Me too movement, 218 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: the public was learning that other big name actresses like 219 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: Michelle Williams and Claire Foy from the Netflix series The 220 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: Crown were paid less than their male co stars, But 221 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: the audience response to those Hollywood pay gaps was very different. 222 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: People got really mad about it. Claire for it even 223 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: ended up getting back pay. I talked to Monique about 224 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: all of this in March. Hello, Hi, this is Jordan's 225 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: Hey Joean not are you doing baby? It's Monique? Good. 226 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: How are you today? I'm wonderful I'm so glad. I 227 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: asked her if she was surprised that people seemed to 228 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: respond differently to her pay gap than those other actresses. 229 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: It didn't surprise me because of what the package looks 230 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: like in Monique, it's a problem. And those subsists that 231 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: you named their white women. Correct, yes, right. So when 232 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: our wife used to say, listen, this is not right, 233 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: we listen, and we should and we should. Now if 234 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: I'm a fat black woman, so people are really looking 235 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: at me like have you lost your mind? You should 236 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: just be grateful they let you in because you've got 237 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: three strikes going against you. You're a woman, you black, 238 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: and you fat, and you want to take a stand girl. 239 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: Monique is one of the most famous black female comedians 240 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: in America, but even before this Instagram post, she has 241 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: always been the type of celebrity that you either love 242 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: or hate. She has a huge personality in her comedy 243 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: Isn't for everyone. Black women don't give a we don't 244 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: give a we don't give a about we don't give 245 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: a we don't give a Girl. You're gonna work them off, girl, 246 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: that y'all. In the early two thousand's, she was everywhere. 247 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: She had the Monique Show. She wrote books, she appeared 248 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: on sitcoms, but what I know her from is The Parkers, 249 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: her number one hit sitcom on the UPN network about 250 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: a single mother and her dizzy daughter. If you were 251 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: a black girl like me, it was Appointment TV. Monique 252 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: moved to l A to pursue acting. When she was thirty, 253 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: she got the offer to start on her own show, 254 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: The Parkers. After only ninety days in Hollywood. When they 255 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: told her how much she'd be making, she felt like 256 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: a kid in the candy shop. So I was a 257 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: little girl. I didn't know the egg question. I didn't 258 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: know to say what's ratings because no one told it 259 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: to me. So when they told me I would be 260 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: making a week, what you mean every you mean every week? 261 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: I would I would give this. Well, that's more money, 262 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: Jordan than my parents made. Monique star kept rising, and 263 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine she landed something very rare for 264 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: a black woman, an Oscar nomination, not for her comedy, 265 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: but for her role in the serious drama Pruscious. And 266 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: that's when something happened that earned her reputation as a 267 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: troublemaker in Hollywood. See winning an Oscar involves its own 268 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: separate kind of side job. You don't just sit back 269 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: and let the Academy honor you. You have to do 270 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: something called an Oscar campaign. It involves going on junkets, 271 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: doing interviews and pressed lunches, and sometimes being on the 272 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: road for months. Monique she refused to do all of that. 273 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: She says she was busy with her family. She was 274 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: raising two young twins during the Oscar season for Pruscious, 275 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: she wanted to stay home with them and watched Curious George. 276 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: She says, the directors and producers didn't care. Everything was 277 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: simply about the business. We hear all of that, but 278 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: we need you here, and I understand that because at 279 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: the time we were coming from three people that have 280 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: no families. Monique won the Oscar anyway, making her one 281 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: of only eight black women to ever when an acting 282 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: Oscar first. I would like to thank the Academy for 283 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: showing that it can be about the performance and not 284 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: the politics. But looking back, Monique says that even though 285 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: she won the Oscar, refusing to do that Oscar campaign 286 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: that hurt her career. I got labeled as difficult and demanding. 287 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: It's hard to know how much that difficult and demanding 288 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: label hurt her, but after Pressures, the jobs definitely slowed down. 289 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: She's only done two stand up specials in the past decade. 290 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: She's been in a handful of movies since Pressures, but 291 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: none of them have been nearly as big. So that 292 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: brings us to the beginning of when she gets this 293 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: offer from Netflix. Even though she hadn't had a big 294 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: hit in a while, the amount they were offering, five 295 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars, sounded really low to her compared to 296 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: the tens of millions she knew other comedians were offered. 297 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: She says that her team, which includes her attorney, Ricky Anderson, 298 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: and her husband's Sidney Hicks, who is also her manager, 299 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: had to fight to even get Netflix VP Robbie Prawe 300 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: on the phone to talk about the offer. Netflix declined 301 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: to speak on this podcast, saying that they do not 302 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: comment on contract negotiations, but the conversation Monique describes once 303 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: they eventually did have a conference call with the studio 304 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: shows you just how difficult it can be to prove 305 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: your value as an entertainer. Monique and her team felt 306 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: like they could make a case that she was worth 307 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: more by any standard Robbie Praue could I'm up with 308 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: but whenever they made their case, he would just change 309 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: the standard. Monique's people said she was worth more than 310 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars because of things like her oscar. 311 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: Robbie Prau said, that was Monique's resume, and they didn't 312 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: look at resumes. They asked why Amy schumers steel was 313 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: so much bigger, and he said, well, she sold out 314 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden twice and she had a big hit 315 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: over the summer. So Sydney said, is that not Amy 316 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 1: Schuma's resume? And you know how quiet it is right now? 317 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: Jordan's yes, that's how quiet it was. On the phone. 318 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: We talked about the gender pay gap a lot, but 319 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: if you're a black woman, you also face a racial 320 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: pay gap. It's really tricky to know which one affects 321 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: you more. We know women make eighty cents to the 322 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: dollar on average, but if you're a black woman, you 323 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: get sixty three cents to a white man's dollar and 324 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: ninety three cents compared to black men. Here is Monique 325 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: being told that the market value for her entertainment was less, 326 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: way less than a white woman or a black man 327 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: was it her qualifications, her race, her gender. It's impossible 328 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: to ever say for sure. And that's what's so crazy 329 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: for anyone who's ever been in a negotiation like this. 330 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: If you're one of those people who knows Monique as 331 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: a comedian and you're just not into her jokes, you 332 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: might think she's ridiculous for comparing herself to Amy Schumer 333 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: or Dave Chappelle. But a few people had her back. 334 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: But then you have those other people saying you better 335 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: not sit down, you better keep standing, you better keep 336 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: speaking up and speaking out. After all, she says, Schumer 337 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: and Chappelle were offered twenty two times more and forty 338 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: times more respectively than she was for a similar job, 339 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: or they worth that much more than her. Comedian Wanda 340 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: Sykes thankful Nique for sharing what Netflix seemed to be 341 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: offering black women compared to men in white women. Wanda Sykes, 342 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: she said Netflix offered her two hundred and fifty dollars 343 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: for her own comedy special. And when I called for 344 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: that boycott, there have been people that have said calling 345 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: for a boycott was extreme, and I want to be 346 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: the first to tell people calling for a boycott is extreme. 347 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: It was extremely extreme. However, isn't inequality extreme, injustice is extreme. 348 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: Some people might hear Monique story and say hers was 349 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: obviously not a case of discrimination. She had barely worked 350 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: in comedy since the Carker's and some just don't find 351 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: her appealing, but take the reason since why she hasn't 352 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: worked and why she's not always appealing, her gender, her race, 353 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: and even her size are all part of it. That's 354 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: how a lot of the gender pay gap plays out. 355 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: Women make less than men for what seemed like innocent reasons, 356 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: but when you dig deeper, the real reasons have everything 357 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that they're women. Next week, 358 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: on The Paycheck, we'll go to a country that thinks 359 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: it knows how to fix the pay gap, how by 360 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: forcing big business to come clean. Thanks for listening to 361 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: The Paycheck. If you like the show, head on over 362 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: to Apple Podcasts and rate, review and subscribe. We appreciate 363 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: all feedback, even those one star reviews from people who 364 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: don't believe in the pay gap. This episode of The 365 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: Paycheck was reported by Jordan Holman Max Abelson and hosted 366 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: and reported by me Rebecca Greenfield. It was edited by 367 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: Francesca Levi and produced by Liz Smith. We also had 368 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 1: helped from Magnus Hendrickson, Gillian Goodman, and Janet Paskin. Our 369 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: original music is by Leo Sidron. Carrie vander Riott did 370 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: the illustrations on our show page, which you can find 371 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: at bloomberg dot com slash paycheck. Francesco Levy is Bloomberg's 372 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:13,959 Speaker 1: head of podcasts