1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 2: Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast. George Nori with you, 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 2: Doctor Michael Schumer with us for the next couple hours. 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 2: Founding publisher of Skeptic Magazine, the host of the podcast 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 2: The Michael Schumer Show, Presidential fellow at Chapman University, where 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: he teaches skepticism one oh one. For eighteen plus years, 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: he was a monthly columnist for The Scientific American and 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: writes a weekly substack column as well. Michael regularly contributes 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: opinion editorials, essays reviews to The Wall Street Journal, The 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: Los Angeles Times, Science, Nature, and other publications. He's also 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: a noted author. One of his recent books, Conspiracy, Why 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: the Rational Believe the Irrational? Michael, welcome back. Have you been. 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 3: Oh I'm doing well, George, Thank you. Yes, exciting times 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 3: in UFO ology. 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, we'll talk a lot about that. Boy, 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 2: your name comes up a lot on this program. Did 17 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: you know that. 18 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: I do hear that periodically from that. Listen to your show. 19 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, we defend you. 20 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 3: Yes, I have very good things. 21 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: Actually, well, you know there's I think it's healthy to 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: be skeptical. You know you're looking for the answers. 23 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 3: Well, that's right. Skepticism is not cynicism, it's not denial, 24 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: it's not nihilism. It's just curiosity. We all want to 25 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 3: know what's the truth, and the fact is we all 26 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 3: get it wrong much at the time, and so we 27 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: want to know, you know, what, what is actually true, 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: and we don't want to get it wrong. And the 29 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 3: basic problem is that none of us are omniscient. No 30 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 3: one knows for sure. I don't know. You don't either, 31 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 3: So we have to work together through the best tools 32 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 3: we have of science and reason to figure out what's 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: going on. So, you know, I never assign a zero 34 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 3: or one probability to anything. You know, anything is possible, 35 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 3: and nothing is impossible, so almost nothing, So you know, 36 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: I try to keep an open mind. I do think, 37 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 3: you know, it's very probable that they're are extraterrestrial intelligences 38 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: somewhere out there in the cosmos. But I think that's 39 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: a separate question from have they come here to Earth, 40 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: And in each case, we don't know one way or 41 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 3: the other for sure, and so we should keep looking, 42 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 3: keep searching. I think it's one of the greatest questions 43 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 3: that anyone can ask. Are we alone? 44 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: It sure is? And people are seeing weird things though, 45 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: aren't they. 46 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they've always seen weird things. 47 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: You know. 48 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: There's kind of a burst of media coverage about UAPs 49 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 3: in the last few weeks, and the problem of having 50 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: an institutional memory like I have, having studied this now 51 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: for well over thirty years, really even more like forty 52 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: or fifty years if you go back to my youth 53 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 3: reading Carl Sagan. You know, we've been hearing stories about this. 54 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 3: You know, disclosure is coming at any time. The government's 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: kind of covering it all up Area fifty one. The 56 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 3: secrets we're going to find out soon. There's these sightings 57 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 3: and this, and that I've been hearing this for so long. 58 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 3: I'm just you know, frustrated, Like, come on, let's get 59 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: to the bottom of it. Quit telling me stories and 60 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: show us the photographs, show us the actual spacecraft. And 61 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 3: you know, I'm hoping that this latest revelation that Macro 62 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 3: Rubio you know, is going to really look into this. 63 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: Maybe maybe he's got the actual power to do something 64 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: about it, but maybe not. You know, I mean Bill Clinton, 65 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: you know, famously said when he became President, I'm going 66 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: to get to the bottom of roswell. And you know 67 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 3: Obama said he would go on and nothing ever comes 68 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 3: of it. So I just I don't know why. My 69 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: suspicion is that there has nothing to do with aliens 70 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: and everything to do with national security secrets over experimental 71 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: aircraft and drones and spy equipment that we're using that 72 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: we don't want the Chinese and Russians and other even 73 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: our allies to know about. And so even my suspicion 74 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: is that even if Marco Rubio somehow got a path 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: to go into Area fifty one or wherever, and and 76 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: they showed him what people have been talking about, my 77 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 3: guess is it would be something like, you know, we 78 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 3: are ten years ahead of the Soviets and the Chinese 79 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: on this incredibly stealthy bomber. Here it is, and it's like, oh, well, 80 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: I can't go to the public and tell her about this. No, 81 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 3: of course you can't. This is stop secret. Oh darn 82 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 3: you know. That's what I suspect it will happen. But 83 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: you know, I could be wrong. I hope he comes 84 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 3: out and says, hey, I found it. I found out. 85 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,119 Speaker 3: You know, we have we had the aliens or whatever, 86 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: but I'm highly skeptical. 87 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: Edgar Mitchell, the late Apollo fourteen astronaut walked on the Moon, 88 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: once told me Michael that he has been told by 89 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: people in government now we are being visited. And he 90 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: was darn serious about that too. 91 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: Yes, I've seen those interviews with Mitchell, and you know, 92 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 3: like the latest round we had, you know, David Gresh said, 93 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 3: you know, he talked to people who touched the spacecraft 94 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 3: and who saw it and so on. And then we 95 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 3: had I had Michael Schallenberger on my show, and you know, 96 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: after the grudg story broke, Schallenberger talked to some people, 97 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: but he wouldn't tell me who he talked to, you know, 98 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: as Drush wouldn't either, says he. You know, you protect 99 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: your sources, all right, you know. And then Mark Rubio said, 100 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 3: he talked to people that you know, direct had direct context. Okay, 101 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 3: so we have three sources. So that tells me that, 102 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: you know, these people are not just making this up. 103 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 3: They're actually talking to somebody. But who are the people 104 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 3: they're talking to We don't know. And what is it 105 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 3: that the people that they talked to actually saw, you know, 106 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 3: we don't know. Somebody says, well, it was you know, 107 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: incredibly unusual, and you know, it appeared to me to 108 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 3: be off world technology. But what if the person they're 109 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 3: talking to doesn't know that they're actually looking at some 110 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: super advanced dark you know, secret weapon in a credled 111 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 3: drone or a spipe lane, the equivalent of the YouTube 112 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 3: spipeline or the SARS seventy word blackbird or the stealth bomber, 113 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 3: something like, you know, twenty years advance from what we 114 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: know about now that they've developed, because that's how it works. 115 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: What if they're looking at that and they go, man, 116 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: this is incredible. I have no idea what I'm looking at, 117 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: and then they tell Schellenburger or Crush or Rubio, I 118 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: saw and touch this thing. I just have no idea. 119 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: It seems offworld, and it's what if that's what it is? 120 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 2: If we find out that we are being visited. What 121 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: does Michael Schumer say after that? 122 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 3: I would print right on the cover of Skeptic magazine 123 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: I was wrong, would you really? Oh yeah, of course, yeah, 124 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: yeah sure, because I don't I don't have any invested, 125 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 3: ideological or religious or whatever interest in denying this. I 126 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 3: in fact, like Carl Sagan, I would be thrilled to 127 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: know that we're not alone. That you know, this truly 128 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 3: would be one of the greatest discoveries of all time, 129 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: if not the greatest discovery and all of science, that 130 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 3: you know, we are not alone in the cosmos. I 131 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 3: think it would be incredibly exciting, and I would I 132 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: would like to know that, and it wouldn't bother me. 133 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: And by the way, I should know parenthetically that you know, 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: there's a lot of kind of memes going around that 135 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: if we were just if we discovered aliens, you know, 136 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: religions would be upset and governments would fall apart in 137 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: economies would collect none. That's true. You know, the study 138 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 3: surveys after surveys, ask Christians and Jews and Muslims and 139 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: other religious people, you know, would just disrupt your religious 140 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: faith if you found out that, you know, there were 141 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: extraterstrial intelligences, And the answer is almost universally no, you know, 142 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 3: because if you really believe that God is an omniscient being, 143 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,559 Speaker 3: omnipot eaten, why why would it matter how many life 144 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: forms he could create in the universe or whatever? You know, 145 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: So I don't think any of that's true. I think 146 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: most people would be thrilled to discover this. I don't 147 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 3: think it would disrupt anything. And there's no reason to 148 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 3: keep a secret other than if there really is some 149 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: kind of back engineering of technology that we could use 150 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: to our advantage over the Russians or Chinese or something 151 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: like that. Then that's the only argument I've ever heard 152 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 3: that you would lead to why they would keep it secret, 153 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: but not for any social or political reasons. 154 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: Well, the Catholic Church, Michael has publicly made it known 155 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: that the belief in extraterrestrial life is not negating your 156 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: belief in God, so they stand by the fact that 157 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: it's very possible that there could be life out there. 158 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, if you're God, you can praise as 159 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: many life forms as you want you can send. If 160 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 3: you're Christians, you can send Jesus to all the different 161 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: planets and forgive the sins of those alien industry whatever. 162 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: You know. 163 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: No, I don't think it would bother people, you know, 164 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, much of the most of the 165 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 3: discoveries of science over the last four hundred years have 166 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: not killed religion like people thought it would. And you know, 167 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 3: so people adjust, you know, the religious faiths to changing 168 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: evidence and science and so so I don't think this 169 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 3: would disrupt anything. In fact, I think, if anything, it 170 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 3: would make people feel in the same sense that they 171 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: feel religiously, like, so we really are not alone. There 172 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 3: really are other beings out there, and in a way 173 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: that does feel good. It's like, oh, okay, yeah, so 174 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 3: you know we're not the only ones. And I do 175 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: think the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, for everything from the 176 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 3: SETI program to u apology has underneath it and this 177 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 3: not unique to me. Carl Sagham made this argument back 178 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: in the sixties. A religious impulse a kind of deeper sense, 179 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: like we want to know, is there somebody else out 180 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: there that's powerful, more powerful than us knows we're here, 181 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 3: you know that sort of thing. And I think that 182 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: does touch a deep human impulse and need to search 183 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: for that, And that's why this is such a really 184 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,479 Speaker 3: interesting compelling subject. 185 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: I'm assuming that your belief in God would be more 186 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: agnostic instead of an atheist. Is that correct? 187 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: Well, I'm an atheist in the sense that I don't 188 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 3: believe in God. I think it's very unlikely that there 189 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 3: is a God. Technically, ontologically speaking, you know what's the 190 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: nature of reality. I don't know there could be a 191 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: god for sure, so I never say zero to anything. 192 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 3: But I don't live my life as if you know 193 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: it could happen any day. I'll change my mind tomorrow. 194 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 3: It's very unlikely I think that there is a God. 195 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: More likely that there would be, you know, an exceptionally 196 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: advanced extraterrestrial intelligence that would appear indistinguishable from God. I mean, 197 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: if we discovered an alien civilization that was, you know, 198 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: a million years more advanced than us, they probably probably 199 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: would seem omniscient and omnipotent. You know, compare like what 200 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 3: we can do to what neanderthol has had for their toolkit, 201 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 3: you know, to a neanderthoal, we would seem godlike. And 202 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 3: if we discovered aliens, that's what they would be like. 203 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: They wouldn't be just ten years ahead of us or 204 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 3: hundred years ahead of us. It'd be you know, one 205 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: hundred thousand years ahead of us or a million years 206 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 3: ahead of us, just because evolution doesn't you know, run 207 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 3: along parallel lines like that on different planets, and we're 208 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 3: not going to find them if they're way behind us 209 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 3: unless we actually land on some other planets. So if 210 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: we discover them them coming here, we pick up their signal. 211 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: It's they're going to be more advanced than us, and 212 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 3: so my speculation is that they they would appear omniscient 213 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 3: to us, like divine beings. 214 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 215 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam 216 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: dot com for more