1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: I never told you protection of I heart Radio. You know, Samantha, 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: I've learned a lot from you over the years. And 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: one of the things it's about cuffing season, which we're 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: kind of entering right we are. It's happening, right, which 6 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: if you don't know, if you're like me and you 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: don't know, basically that's like you're trying to nail down 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: a partner. Correct it's cold, you want to like literally 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: come in and hugging each other and cuddle around the fire, 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: and also be prepared to Valentine's Day and all the holidays. Okay, 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: I see, which, as we've discussed before, is a very 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: telling name. But I heard, I read this really interesting 13 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: piece and I listeners, I am begging you please right 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: in if this is something you've experienced that is true, 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: because this is just something I read. Is that one 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: of the new things that online dating is that there 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: have been so many bots in online dating and so 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: many scams that people have started writing Google docs that 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: are essentially like, here's what I want out of a partner, 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: Here's who I am. Here past references for people I've 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: dated like Google docs, so they're like attaching it to 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: their dating rhythm profile. I like it. I'm honestly like, 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: I'm into it. Seems like a lot of work, but 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: I guess that you could be creative. It doesn't have 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: to be I feel like this is funding so clickal 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: because the old school kind of dating, for a matchmaker, 27 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: you actually would do these types of profiles and then 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: the person who you would pay money would either set 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: up events for like minded people or like just hook 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: you up one on one. Like it seems like it's 31 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: going back as where before it was just like all physical. 32 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: Let me see if we kind of match Let's talk 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: about SACA and then we'll come in into it again. Okay, 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: keep it. Kind of did this with a questionnaire, which 35 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: I really appreciated, but it feels like it's coming back 36 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: to the old school. Matchmakers would be making some money now. Yeah, yeah, listeners, 37 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: you really need to write in because I was reading 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: about this and I heard that some people were right 39 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: like fifteen to twenty pages of this like talk about 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: you know. What I have seen is the Google questionnaire. Oh, 41 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: where if after a date of person will send a 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: questionnaire to that person and say what did I do right? 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: What did I do right? I have seen that right? 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: And did we talk about that? Where some of them 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: were so like clearly out of touch, where every answer 46 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: like A through D was like I was the best 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: sexy favorite. I don't remember this, but it seems about right. Yeah, 48 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: I believe so. I think people are sharing some they 49 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,839 Speaker 1: had gotten where it was like clearly there was no 50 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: other answer than this was the very best person I've 51 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: ever dated. Well, listeners, we are counting on you, We 52 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: are depending on you to write in and let us 53 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: know what's going on. But in the meantime, please enjoy 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: this slightly dated episode about online dating. Welcome to stuff 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: Mom never told you from how supports dot com. Hellen, 56 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. I'm Christen and I'm Caroline, and 57 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: today I'm gonna talk about We're gonna talk about rejection, 58 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about how online dating offers 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: documentary proof. The guys fellas dudes, you have a hard time, 60 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: couldn't turn down sometimes heck yeah, the Internet is sort 61 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: of a scary landscape. It is. And should we go 62 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: ahead and offer a disclaimer that some women have a 63 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: hard time with rejection sometimes as well, and overreact getting 64 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: turned down, especially if you're being sexually turned down. Well, 65 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: rejection is hard. Rejection is the worst. Rejecting is pretty 66 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: bad too, but I mean it can rejection of any 67 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: kind can really sting, and and that is not a 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: gendered thing. It's a fact of life. Rejection is the worst, 69 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: and we hate it, we all struggle with it. But 70 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: there are some things that put certain people at risk 71 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: of being a bigger jerk than other people when it 72 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: comes to rejection. Yeah, I mean this is a particular 73 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: pattern when it comes to straight dating and especially straight 74 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: online dating, although it is more of a thing of 75 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: straight guys dating, I should say, because the recipient of 76 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: the offer, whether it's to you know, have a drink bought, 77 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: or a date or sex or whatever. Um, she can 78 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: be of any orientation whatsoever. It's really more you know, 79 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: straight guys processing being turned down and what God is 80 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: thinking about this whole thing was an incident that happened 81 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,559 Speaker 1: on the internet in late August. Yeah. I was actually 82 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: on vacation when this happened, and I just remember seeing, um, 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: my internet, my personal internet, blowing up over it. So 84 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: BuzzFeed writer and comedian Grace Spellman got a series of 85 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: tweets and Facebook messages from this guy Ben Shane, who 86 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: is a former Harry Potter podcast host and who's also 87 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: the co founder of the website fem Inspire. He was 88 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: clearly trying to charm Misspellman, and uh he, I guess 89 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: it's an understatement to say that he didn't really charm her. Yeah, 90 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: the whole incident was kind of bizarre because they had 91 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: friended each other on Facebook nine years ago when Shane 92 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: was hosting this podcast called muggle Cast which was super 93 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: popular um and Spellman was a fan, so they became 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: friends on Facebook, but they were weren't in contact whatsoever. 95 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: So this time in August was the first time he 96 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: was messaging her ever, so totally out of the blue, 97 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: and at first he was full of praise. So in 98 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: one Facebook message he sent her, he said, you do 99 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: a remarkable job of making your quirky personality shine through online. 100 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: It's hyperactively beautiful. And to to this, Spellman says, thanks, no, thanks, 101 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: I've got a boyfriend, wish you well turn him down politely. Well, 102 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: he was not too happy about that. No, No, that 103 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: would be also another understatement. He responded with a slew 104 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: of of not so nice messages, including just because he 105 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: worked at BuzzFeed, does it mean you're good? Good luck 106 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: finding meaning and all of that garbage you call content, 107 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: and he also, I mean, he got more personal than that, 108 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: and he just wouldn't stop. He was contacting her on 109 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: all sorts of platforms just to tell her that she 110 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: was the worst. Basically, yeah, I mean, because it really 111 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: exploded when she publicized the private, incessant private messaging that 112 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: he had been doing. And then of course that only 113 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: fanned his his outrage, and at one point he wrote 114 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: her an email saying, I was so angry and offended. 115 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: I wrote a draft putting you in your place, but 116 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: then he decided against it and wrote her this email instead. 117 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: But what was interesting to see was this White Knight 118 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: turn that it took when he issued a press statement 119 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: touting his fem Inspire cred saying I've done more for 120 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: the cause of advancing women's rights than any of the 121 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: people who are criticizing me. Um. Because this is after 122 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: Grace Spellman publicized this incident to her large Twitter following, 123 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: and people kind of came out of the woodwork saying, 124 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: either what a cree but also this has happened to 125 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: me before, and also yeah, this is why he you know, 126 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: I left them Inspire or why he is not on 127 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: our podcast anymore, etcetera. It does seem to be fair 128 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: that Ben Shane has some personal issues going on that 129 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: have led him to separate from other people in his 130 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: professional life, and that perhaps that behavior is why he's 131 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: no longer with the certain ventures that he had been 132 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: with before and what possibly led him to be like 133 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: incredibly creepy with Grace Spellman. But that about face, going 134 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: from you're brilliant and hyperactively beautiful and charming to you're 135 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: no good at all. All of your work is garbage. 136 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that kind of about face is something that 137 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: we see happen so often anecdotally but now documented via 138 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: online data. And this whole incident prompted Jessica roy Over 139 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: at the Cut to relate this to the broader pattern 140 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: of straight guys, in particular fellas we love you, but 141 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: straight guys not wanting to take no for an answer. 142 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: She writes, the whole exchange is pretty emblematic of the 143 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: inherent difficulties of rejecting men, both online and off. Women 144 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: are frequently made to tow a line between being polite 145 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: enough not to set off a suitor, but not so 146 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: polite that their manners are interpreted as flirting. And when 147 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: I read that, I could immediately relate to what she 148 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: was saying. It totally resonated. Yeah, and it resonated with Spellman. 149 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: She agreed. She says, you can't win in these types 150 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: of situations, even if you're polite in your rejection, they'll 151 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: demand that you tell them why you did it. It's 152 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: just a mixture of entitlement and the fragility of ego, which, 153 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: by the way, as we will get into it a 154 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: little bit, is backed up by research. Spellman speaks the truth. 155 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, because you don't know how 156 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: they're going to handle it, you don't know if you 157 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: should be afraid or not. So the result is this 158 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: catch twenty two that comes up often of guys asking 159 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: for women to be straightforward and honest with them, which 160 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: is totally fair. That is a very reasonable request. Who 161 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: wants to be let on answer nobody unless you are 162 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: just a sucker for pain. But if she is in 163 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: fact straightforward, you can then be punished for being too straightforward. 164 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: Then you're a jerk or a word that we you know, 165 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: can't really say on the podcast, um, and we should acknowledge. Yeah, 166 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: I mean some women do lead guys on. Some women 167 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: do put men in holding patterns of you know, wuying 168 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: their companionship but not wanting to take it to a 169 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: relationship level of sort of like I'm gonna, you know, 170 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: float on you for a little bit until I find 171 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: a guy that I do want to date. That does happen, 172 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: and that's not an okay pattern I there. Um, But 173 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: when I made a YouTube video about this whole thing, 174 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: the comments were split between guys saying he would just 175 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: be straightforward, be honest, and girls saying when I was 176 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: honest and straightforward. I got so much blowback from it, 177 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: and sprinkled in that too, a lot of anecdotes from 178 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: girls dealing with guys not taking no for an answer 179 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: in the sense of if you say you're just not interested, 180 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: that's really not sufficient. They want to know why. They 181 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: want an explanation, and typically the only explanations that shut 182 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: it down completely are I have a boyfriend, or you 183 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: hold up your hand to show off an engagement ring 184 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: or a wedding band, and that will usually get them 185 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,719 Speaker 1: to stop. Which is interesting how the primary way to 186 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: get a guy to take no for an answer is 187 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: not for you to say no, but rather for you 188 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: to present another man next to you, either literally or figuratively. Well, 189 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: it seems that that's the only way to put a 190 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: stop to a sense of entitlement to you, access to you. 191 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: I UM. I had an awkward moment in college when 192 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: a friend of mine told me that he had feelings 193 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: for me, and when I responded compassionate, I mean, he 194 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: we've been friends for years. When I responded very you know, 195 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: compassionately that like, I understand, and I'm really sorry, but 196 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 1: I don't feel the same way, like I love you 197 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: as a friend. We've been friends for so long. I 198 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: just am not on that same romantic wavelength. He got 199 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: very upset. I got very upset. We talked, and we 200 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: I thought made up, but then when he offered to 201 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: like take me out to dinner for tak us to 202 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: let things blow over, I was like, oh, good, like 203 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: things are back on track. It was actually ruse because 204 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: he had taken me out for tacos to demand an 205 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: explanation of why I would not date him, saying that 206 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: everything we do and we hang out together is the 207 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: same thing that couples would do, or that a girlfriend 208 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: and a boyfriend would do, So why can't you just 209 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: be my girlfriend? And it made me really sad because 210 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: it made me realize that he must be feeling really 211 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 1: powerless in our friendship if he's telling me that I 212 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: need to change the way that I feel and change, 213 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: but I'm doing to come over to his viewpoint of things, 214 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: the old Taco Ruse, Caroline Taco Ruse. And the thing is, 215 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: so many of us have stories like that of having 216 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: to deal with what happens when when someone catches feelings. 217 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 1: But this whole conversation, especially when we look at in 218 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: the context of online dating and more of the hook 219 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: up culture side of things, it's not so much catching feelings. 220 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: It's more wanting to catch bodies. And if you cannot 221 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: catch that body, then you will said a series a 222 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: very mean text messages or okay Cupid messages that completely, 223 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: you know, turn your attraction on a dime, and suddenly 224 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: this woman is just the worst thing. Ever. It's so 225 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: weird to look at these messages because there are plenty 226 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: of blogs and things like that that now post them 227 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: for all to see, and it's so weird to see like, Hey, 228 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: you're so hot, I want to date you. I'm being 229 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: very euphemistic with what I say. Um, And the minute 230 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: the woman's like no thanks, so she doesn't respond, the 231 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: guy goes immediately to well, you're ugly and fat anyway, 232 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: and I don't want to date you, and nobody else 233 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: wants to date you, quote unquote date you, so just 234 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: never contact me again. It's like, whoa were you just 235 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: having a completely different conversation than I was. Wait, I 236 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: thought women were the crazy ones, Caroline, what happened? Yeah? 237 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: The fact that the Daily Dot published guy lines for 238 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: dudes getting rejected on Tender that included quote once someone 239 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: makes it clear they're not interested in talking, do you 240 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: stop talking to them? Kind of points out that this 241 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: is something that happens now. I'm sure that your patients, 242 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: if you are a straight dude in these kinds of 243 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: online dating, scenarios can wear very thin because it is 244 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: more of a woman's game, a street woman's game with 245 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: online dating, because of the whole narratives, the broader social 246 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: narratives of men as the pursuers, women as the recipients 247 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: of a gentleman's attention um, and a lot of times 248 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: guys do have to deal with a lot of rejection, 249 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about more in just a minute. Um, 250 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: but it's Alexandra. Tweetings by Philippe Instagram account illustrates repeatedly 251 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: the reactions to this online dating rejection are so severe. 252 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: So any times, yeah, and I mean yeah, that might 253 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: come out of a place of anger or online anonymity, 254 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: making it easier to be like, well, screw you, lady, 255 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: but that doesn't make it any less horrifying. Uh. Tweeting 256 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: writing in Miss magazine says that since creating by Philip, 257 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: which of course is a takeoff of by Felicia from Friday, Uh, 258 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: it has become a parent that a standard trajectory of 259 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: discourse with men online is this man hits on woman, 260 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,239 Speaker 1: woman rejects or ignores him. Man lashes out with insults 261 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: or even threats. Now we should say that this Instagram 262 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: account is one of those social media accounts that displays 263 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: in full glory, uh, the interactions online between men and 264 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: women on dating sites tender. Okay, keep it, what what 265 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: have you? Um? Basically showing screen grabs of these text 266 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: or email conversations that more often than not are completely 267 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: one foul in percent. Gross. Yeah, they don't. They don't 268 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: end well by Philip, they don't end well at all. 269 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: There was even one where a guy was sending messages 270 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: to a girl young enough to be his daughter, and 271 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: she was like, Hey, I am fourteen, you have to 272 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: leave me alone. Granted sub question what side is she 273 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: on that she's fourteen? Anyway, He was like, oh, well, 274 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: my bad, Like no disrespect, have a nice day. He 275 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: immediately comes back and it's like, well, you're going to 276 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: be fat when you grow up anyway. So just yeah, 277 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: like what what, why do you need to do that? 278 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: I don't know? What's people the power grab um yeah 279 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: tweet and writes that she started it to one commiserate 280 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: with other women who are dealing with this so commonly too, 281 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: to show guys what it's like to be a woman online. 282 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: We have talked a lot on the podcast before about 283 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: online harassment targeted at women and three to quote expose 284 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: the problematic entitlement some men feel they need to exert 285 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: over women in general. And she did also note in 286 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: an interview with BuzzFeed that Yeah, online dating is often 287 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: wretched four guys because they do have to often message 288 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of women you got, you gotta swipe a 289 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: lot to get a match, and even if you do 290 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: get a match, it doesn't guarantee that that attraction is 291 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: going to be sustained. Well, I mean, I think I 292 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: think it's wretched for for everyone involved, because there's plenty 293 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: of anecdotes about guys setting up accounts pretending to be 294 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: women and men. There was one guy interviewed in one 295 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: of these articles we read where he was like, I 296 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: set up five women and five men as fake accounts, 297 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: and before I could even log back off, the women 298 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: had already received hundreds of messages, many of them gross, 299 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: many of them going straight to sex and like freaky 300 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: scary stuff at that, and like most of the men 301 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: had just received absolutely nothing. And so he's like, I 302 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: can see how it's demoralizing for everyone involve, because he's like, 303 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: some guy might have just emailed one of these women 304 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: to say hi, and if I responded as the woman 305 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: being like hey, what's up, where do you live or whatever, 306 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: it immediately was like super sexual, super here's what I'm 307 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: gonna do to you. And so yeah, it it immediately 308 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: went to like I want to come over and read 309 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: Judith Butler together and drink some tea, yeah, and do 310 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: you have cats? Yeah. The more the merrier. Let's put 311 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: on our stretchy pants and let's read poetry. Ironically, though 312 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: this is a little bit of a tangent, but ironically, 313 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: Tinder like the people who run Tinder had a bi 314 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: Philip level meltdown in response to this Vanity Fair piece 315 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: that came out a couple of months ago on Tinder hookups, 316 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: this whole Tender hookup culture by Nancy Joe Sales, who 317 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: did not paint Tinder usage, I should say in the 318 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: most pause ative light. It was made a lot of 319 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: guys who use it come off very smarmie, and it 320 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: was a, you know, one of those bigger pieces about oh, 321 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: what are we doing with this hookup culture and ruining everything? 322 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: And women are just being dragged along in the mud essentially. 323 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: And in response though to this very buzzed about vanity Fair, 324 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: Peace Tender spouted out thirty tweets in quick succession, including 325 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: one that said quote, if you want to try to 326 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: terrace down with one sided journalism, well that's your prerogative, 327 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: which is sort of reminiscent of the kinds of Bi 328 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: Filipe style post rejection messages that women get I mean, 329 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: and in folks, if you haven't seen this, I do 330 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: recommend you google it because it's incredible to watch this, 331 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: this Tender by phileep melt down happening on the internet. 332 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: It almost felt unreal. Well, okay, then maybe you can explain. 333 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: There have been plenty of things online or in the 334 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: media about how, like, you know, apps like Tender or 335 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: Signify the end of Times that basically like no one's 336 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: ever going to fall in love and have families again 337 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: because Tender is ruining life for everyone. What was it 338 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: about Nancy jos Sales? Do you know that that caused 339 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: Tender to get so upset? As I say Tender like 340 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: it's a person, but the Tender Twitter person to get 341 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: so upset because she painted because Tinder was positioned in 342 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: her piece as instigating a post dating apocalypse essentially, and 343 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, talks a lot about how these guys that 344 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: she interviewed in her story manipulate Tinder to basically get 345 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: as much sex as they want and treat women in 346 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: real life very very poorly. And it's just that insta 347 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: sex hookup culture that is even more troubling. It seems 348 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: like to Sales than the analog hookup culture, where I mean, 349 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: at least you're meeting at a party and one of 350 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: the things tender, or at least this person treating on 351 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: behalf of Tinder. Was most upset about was how Sales 352 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: did not interview anyone with Tinder for the piece, to 353 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: which Nancy Joe Sales on Twitter got the last word 354 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: in this whole tender Twitter melt down, saying, ha ha, 355 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: this piece wasn't even about Tinder at all, So you're 356 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: saying that, um, Miss Vanity Fair hurt Mr tinders feelings 357 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: and Mr Tinder just lashed out. It was like, Miss 358 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair, you can go you aren't my type anyway. Yeah, yeah, 359 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: I mean it really, it really was like that. And listeners, 360 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: we will be posting a link to that Vanity Fair 361 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: piece over at stuff I've never told you dot com 362 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: on the podcast post for this, So if you haven't 363 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: read it, I highly recommend you go check it out. 364 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: If you are familiar with it, um and want us 365 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: to do a podcast, look at it. Just let us 366 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: know because it's I mean, there's a lot to talk 367 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: about in there. I love these weird personified, anthropomorphized versions 368 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: of websites of dating as yeah, because I feel like Tinder, 369 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: who's obviously the hipper millennial on a smartphone tweeting things, 370 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: whereas e Harmonies at home on just on like a 371 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: rotary telephone calling you up, wondering why you're not answering. Oh, 372 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna get so many letters from the Harmony users. 373 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: And this is all it's all funny to joke about, 374 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, if you if you can't laugh, you'll cry, 375 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But there is a darker, more 376 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: serious side to all of this, because it's not as 377 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: if this behavior and this language and these reactions are 378 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: limited to the Internet, to the online world. This is 379 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: very real stuff. This, this aggression, this masculinity threat, all 380 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: of this is very real. And the website, when women 381 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: refuse around Tumbler, highlights that yeah, I mean this Tumbler 382 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: is essentially a collection of stories and graphic images trigger 383 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: warning of women who have endured domestic abuse from either 384 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: partners or strangers, you know, especially in context of rejecting 385 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: them in one way or another. And and it really 386 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: does get to that quote problematic entitlement that tweet says 387 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: helped inspire by Philip I mean and and to that 388 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: kind of darker, darker, darker entitlement was also echoed in 389 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: the manifesto written by Elliott Roger, who murdered women partially 390 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: because he was so angry that he could not sleep 391 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: with them, he did not have access to them him 392 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: in the way he felt like he should. Yeah, he 393 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: felt that women should be afraid of him, or that 394 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: women should be afraid of men and should be submissive 395 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: to them completely. And obviously that is a worst case 396 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: scenario kind of example. But ultimately it is all connected 397 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: because there are these common threads that run through that. 398 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about those threads and the 399 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: academic research that's been done on them when we come 400 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: right back from a quick bread. So we don't have 401 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: just Instagram accounts and anecdotes from our dating lives to 402 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: base this whole conversation on. There has actually been a 403 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: ton of research on romantic and sexual rejection and how 404 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: that often is processed through gendered lenses, as as most 405 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: things are eventually processed through. Yeah, there was study called 406 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: the Prevalence and Nature of Unrequited Love, and it pointed 407 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: out that unrequited love and crushing on people was four 408 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: times more frequent than quote unquote equal love, that deep, actual, 409 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: real relationship where two people know that they're in a 410 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: relationship with each other and love each other. Um. Researchers 411 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: said that unrequited love was not a good simulation of 412 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: true romantic love, but an inferior approximation of that ideal. 413 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: And then it's more common among people with an anxious 414 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: or ambivalent attachment style. And this is to establish the 415 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: fact that rejection is gonna happen. I mean, this is 416 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: more the rule than the exception. Love and relationships are 417 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: the exception. Otherwise, I mean, how would we really get 418 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: on with our lives that we didn't have rejection happening 419 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, But in calling it not a 420 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: good stimulation of true romantic love, they're sort of explaining 421 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: the fact that it's so much more common than that 422 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: equal love, and it can be so much more intense. 423 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: It can stir up all of these feelings of inferiority 424 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: and anxiety. And so I think that it's absolutely important 425 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: to talk about that in relation to online dating, where 426 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: so much rejection happens. Yeah, And these similar kinds of 427 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: studies have found that men do tend to experience romantic 428 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: rejection more often than women, quite possibly because again of 429 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: this heteronormative role social role as the pursuer, men are 430 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: more expected to put themselves in positions where they could 431 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: be rejected compared to women. But the thing is, while 432 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: rejection is no fun, getting rejected is no fun. Of course, 433 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: studies have also shown that it's also painful to do 434 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: the rejecting, and this goes back to a study published 435 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that looked 436 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: at both sides of unrequited love, of the person who 437 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: was having to process receiving it in the person who's 438 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: dolling it out, and the authors wrote that rejectors depicted 439 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: themselves as morally innocent but still felt guilty about hurting someone, 440 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: But they also depicted the would be lovers persistent efforts 441 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: as intrusive and annoying, and in an article about this 442 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: in The New York Times, one of the study authors, 443 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: Roy Baumeister, described this experience of doing the romantic rejection 444 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: as agony, and also that if you're looking at rejecting 445 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: versus being rejected, that it's actually the people doing the 446 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: rejecting who remember that incident more than the people who 447 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: were rejected. I mean, obviously that depends and then other 448 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: factors go into that, but it seems like that strange 449 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: experience of having to that strange and painful experience of 450 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: having to tell someone who's being very persistent that you're no, 451 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: I'm not interested, it really kind of sticks with you. 452 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: And so it's interesting to read about how people on 453 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: either side of this experience process it differently in order 454 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: to sort of justify their own behavior. And there's also 455 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: to this issue of rejectors, especially if there's an established 456 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: relationship between two people. This is probably happening more in 457 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: real life versus online dating um, but rejectors being expected 458 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: to not only do the rejecting but also comfort the 459 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: other person's wounded pride. But speaking of online dating, though, 460 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: that can explain this common demand for an explanation because 461 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: that is a source of comfort. That's their closure. Tell 462 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: me why I'm not good enough? The old taco ruse, 463 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: the taco ruse. Caroline Bombster also found that men are 464 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: more likely than women to fall in love with someone 465 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: who does not return their feelings. And that's also in 466 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: a like real life as supposed to online thing um 467 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: and echoing that is Philip Shaver at the University of 468 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: California Davis, who said that the people who are particularly 469 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: prone to falling in love with people who will reject 470 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: them are people who are so anxious about being loved 471 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: that they drive their partners away through being too clingy. 472 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: That anxious attachment, that anxious attachment that the person who's 473 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: doing the attaching sees us normal and just love me. 474 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: I just want to be loved, and the rejector feels like, God, 475 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: you're being a creep. I've been that person. I've been 476 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: that creep before, Caroline, I will own that and that 477 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: creep though issue is something that we could do an 478 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: entire podcast on because I feel like, especially in today 479 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: is um dating landscape it seems like, and also from 480 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: what I've heard from guys directly, that being rejected also 481 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: comes sometimes with this underlying panic of of yeah, okay, 482 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to, you know, ever 483 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: get with that person. But also, oh my god, does 484 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: she think I'm a creep? Being labeled as a creep? 485 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: I feel like, is so so so triggering, you know, 486 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: of anxiety and panic for for dudes, because that's almost 487 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: the worst thing that you can be called. Well, yeah, 488 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: and it's also the frustration and fear of being misunderstood, 489 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: like no, no, no, I was just trying to compliment 490 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: you and ask you out and and be nice and 491 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: kind and I just you know, you're beautiful enough. But 492 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to be considered a creep. I'm not 493 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: a creep. I'm just I just like you, just like you. 494 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: So we already have this complicated stew on this to hope. 495 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: But then when you add a dash of this thing 496 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: called masculinity threat, you have an emotional powder keg really 497 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: waiting to happen. So masculinity threat is a sociological term 498 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: referring to some men's expectations of how they should fulfill 499 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: hegemonic masculine roles. So masculinity threat is a sociological term 500 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: referring to when a guy feels like his idea of 501 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: what masculinity is and his role in that is being 502 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: challenged in some kind of way, his masculinity being threatened. 503 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, yeah, so that idea of 504 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: I'm the breadwinner, I am strong. I must be strong 505 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: and stoic for my woman. And of course I have 506 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: to and am entitled to have access to women's bodies sexually. 507 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: So what happens when masculinity is threatened, Well, you tend 508 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: to get over compensation, which is not that surprising. Um. 509 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: There was a study in social psychology that found that 510 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: when men's masculinity is threatened, they go overboard and distancing 511 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: themselves from femininity or feminine attributes or women and end 512 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: up amping up the masculinity the browishness. Uh the study 513 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: authors right. Additionally, threatened men claimed more stereotypically masculine attributes 514 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: such as height, number of past sexual relationships, and aggressiveness, 515 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: which is interesting because your height is just your height. 516 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: And when these men's masculinity was threatened or when they 517 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: felt threatened, they said that they were taller than they 518 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 1: actually were. And so masculinity is this sort of social power, 519 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: and when that power is endangered, men who are threatened 520 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: will react, oftentimes in an aggressive manner. Now all of that, too, though, 521 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: is predicated on how closely a man identifies with hegemonic 522 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: masculine roles, because there are plenty of guys who where 523 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: this masculinity threat is not going to be as big 524 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: of a deal for them because they don't see their 525 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: role in this, you know, kind of hegemonic box right there. Um, 526 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: But for the many, many men out there who do 527 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: this is a very real thing. And studies have also 528 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: found that provoking masculinity threat also diminishes men's perceptions of 529 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 1: sexual assault and violence as well. So again we start 530 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: to see these common threads along the spectrum of just 531 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: you know, feelings getting hurt that's totally understandable to violent outrage. Yeah. Well, 532 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: there was also a study in the American Journal of 533 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: Sociology that found that the more testosteron a man had, 534 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: the more overcompensating be behaviors he exhibited when told that 535 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: his survey answers indicated femininity. In this particular study, Uh, 536 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: when men had less testosterone, they didn't really exhibit any 537 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: real overcompensation behavior to speak of. But key to that 538 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: threat is that men with more testosterone aren't necessarily walking 539 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: around being macho and aggressive of the time, twenty four 540 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: hours a day. It was it was the threat, It 541 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: was the telling, hey, you your your survey answers, when 542 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: we asked about attributes of your life and behavior, there 543 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: they really indicated femininity. And that's when the guys with 544 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: a lot more testosterone than the other men went into 545 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: those overcompensating behaviors, like why would you tell that to 546 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: a six ft five men? Impossible? And this can also 547 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: happen with women in terms of femininity threat where, uh, 548 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: if you identify with those feminine role and you feel 549 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,959 Speaker 1: like that is being threatened, which would be people thinking 550 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: that you are too strong or aggressive, then you might 551 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: minimize yourself or your role in some kind of way 552 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: to compensate, which equally is not all women, right, Um, 553 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: It's just a particular subset of women who would react 554 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: negatively being told that they're too strong or too masculine. 555 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: So where though, is all of this coming from if 556 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about masculinity threat um? So Michael Kimmel wrote 557 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: a whole book about this um and he has built 558 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: a whole career actually on on studying masculinity UM. And 559 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: in his book Angry White Men Masculinity at the End 560 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: of an Era, he refers to the erosion of white 561 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: male privilege, particularly in the US as a quote aggrieved 562 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 1: entitlement basically of guys today not benefiting as much from 563 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: the privileges bestowed to say their dads or their gray 564 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: and dads. Yeah. And in the same article that was 565 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: looking at Michael Kimmel's research, sociologists Tristan Bridges and Terrely 566 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: tober So that men are likely to turn to violence 567 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: when they perceived themselves to be otherwise unable to stake 568 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: a claim to a masculine gender identity. And of course 569 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: this article is very specifically talking about gun violence in 570 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: the United States as it relates to masculine aggression, but 571 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: it does seem to relate back to the aggressive responses 572 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: that can happen when rejection happens online or in dating scenarios, right, 573 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: because again this does seem to echo common demands for 574 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: those explanations as to why a girl doesn't want to 575 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: talk to you, go on a date with, sleep with, etcetera. 576 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: Them And the fact of the matter is some guys 577 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: are just jerks, just like some women or just jerks. 578 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: But there does seem to be something too the relationship 579 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: between masculinity threat and this pattern of rejection and how 580 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: we all process rejection, and also how that relates to 581 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 1: to this headeronormative dating dynamic that has really not kept 582 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: up with gender progression and which does no one any good. 583 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: It does well, I mean I say that, but of 584 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: course the people who benefit from being on the top 585 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: of the heap. Of course they benefit from that, but 586 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: for I mean, I would argue that most people would 587 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: be better served if we weren't desperately clinging with our 588 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: fingernails sunk in to these ideas that men have to 589 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: be a certain way and women have to be a 590 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: certain way, and that men deserve x y z and 591 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: women need and should give x y z in response. Yeah, 592 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: and it just seems like they're something fundamentally broken too, 593 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: with this structure that we've built up in terms of 594 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: straight you know, attraction, sex and pursuit, because as far 595 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: as I know, we don't see similar patterns. I mean, 596 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: of course there are incidents, but similar patterns happening with 597 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: LGBT dating. There's not the bi fleape grinder version, you know. 598 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems to be so so particular 599 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: to how men and women get together that just gets 600 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: my brain turning about what it really means, because clearly 601 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: this is not just about tender or online dating. This 602 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 1: is a bigger thing about how men and men and 603 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: women relate to each other, I think. Yeah, And the 604 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: idea that still that persists that people don't believe that 605 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: no means no. And in culture too, we have loved 606 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: stories of the underdog guy who finally gets his reward 607 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: at some point for you know, hanging in there with 608 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: the girl who's dating the you know, the rich guy 609 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: who's more handsome but ultimately he'll win her, or just 610 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: wearing a woman down, which really only feeds into this dysfunction. Well, 611 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: one researcher quoted was it in the New York Times 612 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: article about this, pointed to all those movies and said, like, listen, 613 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: statistically speaking and scientifically, people date and have relationships with 614 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: people who are of equivalent attractiveness and life status. And 615 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: so that's kind of where you get this idea of 616 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: the nice guys of okay Cupid, for instance, who voiced 617 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: their entitlement to like a you know, like a gazelle, 618 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: like a freaking Cindy Crawford on okay Cupid, that they 619 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: just deserve to have this woman pay attention to them, 620 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: and to why won't you answer me as to why 621 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: you won't date me? But so, how do we change this? 622 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: How do we go from here? I mean, I I 623 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: don't know that you and I sitting here in a 624 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: podcast studio are going to do it. What is it 625 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,919 Speaker 1: going to take or will this ever change? Well, i'd 626 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,800 Speaker 1: i'd like to think that one day it might change 627 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: and that we can all treat each other like human 628 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: people who have feelings, um, and respect each other's decisions. Um. 629 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: But I don't know. Maybe it it's if women talking 630 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: about it isn't gonna work. Maybe it's going to take 631 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: men talking to each other about it. Yeah, I mean 632 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: that brings up a quote from Kimmel and Angry White Men. 633 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: He said, American men define their masculinity not as much 634 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: in relation to women, but in relation to each other. So, guys, 635 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: what's it going to take? And also, Okay, folks, I 636 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: feel like we have a lot to learn from you, 637 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: so please please give us your wisdom, because I know 638 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: we've heard from, for instance, some of our lesbian listeners 639 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: in response to our division of household labor episode that yes, 640 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: there is sure there is a division. Somebody might like 641 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: to mow the law on, somebody like might like to 642 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: load the dishwasher Kristen, Um, guilty, um, But that there's 643 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: no stereotypical gender role to fall back on, and so 644 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: I would imagine it's the same in terms of dating 645 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: with the approach versus the approach e um that there's 646 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: no real script or schema for who should do the approaching, 647 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: who should do the rejecting or the accepting. And also too, 648 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: in terms of hookups gay men to take such a 649 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: more straightforward approach to it as well of sex being 650 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: sex do you want it? Or not? Done? And done 651 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: as well, we'll share because when it's a straight man 652 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: and a straight woman looking for each other on Tinder, 653 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: for instance, Mr tinder Um, you also have to deal 654 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: with all of the social stuff that says women who 655 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: just want sex on Tinder are gross or that they're 656 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, sluts. So you've got all sorts of layers 657 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: of social grossness um putting pressure on everyone. We got 658 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,439 Speaker 1: some baggage and talk about some relationship baggage will help 659 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,399 Speaker 1: us start through it. Folks. We're really curious to hear 660 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: from women who have experienced this online. Does this issue 661 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: resonate with you, especially in your online dating experience and 662 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: just generally everyone, what are your thoughts on this? Mom 663 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: Stuff at house stuffworks dot com is our email address. 664 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcast or 665 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,800 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 666 00:43:52,840 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: to share with you right now, and I've gotta let 667 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: her here. Caroline from listener Andy, who writes, thank you, 668 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for doing an episode on Asian fetishes. 669 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:11,879 Speaker 1: Is this something I deal with from time to time 670 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: and it's hard to explain to others why it's an 671 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: issue or why it's creepy. You guys mentioned in the 672 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: podcast that having an Asian fetish is similar to merely 673 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: having a type. This is an argument I hear a lot. 674 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: The difference between having a fetish and a type comes 675 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: down to whether you can see the person as an 676 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,360 Speaker 1: individual or merely as a member of their group. For instance, 677 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,800 Speaker 1: Kristen said she's only dated white guys. But Kristen, do 678 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: you immediately hit on every white guy you meet because 679 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: he's merely white? Answer? Yes, it's exhausting. I'm totally kidding, 680 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: She says, Do you quis him on his white cultural upbringing? 681 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: Do you ask him where he buys his silverware? I've 682 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: been asked where I buy my chopsticks. Everyone has a type. 683 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,839 Speaker 1: Mine is lanky, pale, nerdy guys, but that doesn't mean 684 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: I find them interchangeable. Once again, I appreciate you doing 685 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: an episode on an Asian issue. Since we are the 686 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: quote model minority, it's sometimes hard to convince people that 687 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: racism against Asians exists or matters. While it's true that 688 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: in America, racism against Asians tends to be less violent 689 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: than racism towards other minorities, that doesn't mean it's not 690 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: a problem and that it shouldn't be examined. Thanks for 691 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: making this world a better place. Um, thank you, Andy. 692 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: That last line to escape me goose bumps. Well, I 693 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Elizabeth in response to our 694 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: Samurai Women episode, and I just want to say, first 695 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: of all, Elizabeth, thank you. Her email is a six page, 696 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: essentially really super well written list of corrections, and I 697 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: wish I could read the whole thing that I can't, 698 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: so I want to pull out some points of clarification 699 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: that Elizabeth makes, So here we go. She says, I 700 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: posted this on Facebook as well because I felt it 701 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: was too husguely important to be glossed over, and I 702 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: was really hoping other fellow listeners would see it and 703 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: catch that the switch from Shinto religion. Two more disparaging 704 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: views of women came from Confucianism and not Buddhism. Both 705 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: were introduced into Japan at the same time and had 706 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 1: long been tied together in China because of the Chinese 707 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,240 Speaker 1: traditional religion, which really meant that Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism 708 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: were all simultaneously believed in and work together in unison 709 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: to form the belief of the Chinese people. Because of 710 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: the strong relation and tied to Confucianism, a lot of 711 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,959 Speaker 1: the misogynistic ideas about how evil women were and whether 712 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: or not they could obtain enlightenment bled very heavily into Buddhism. 713 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: It's possible that there may have been some not very 714 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: accepting ideas about women in general and Buddhism, but at 715 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: its core that's not really part of the Buddhist doctrine. 716 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, Historically, the more firm that 717 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: Confucianism took root in Japan, the less rights women had. 718 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: Every negative thing you mentioned in your podcast as a 719 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: cultural belief about women, those are all Confucianist beliefs. For 720 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: the hay On period. Women being behind closed doors then 721 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: was definitely a Confucian thing in part, but Confucianism didn't 722 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: have as strong of a hold then. Women had relatively 723 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: a lot of power in the hay On period and 724 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: a lot of social mobility if they were able to 725 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: get the means or attract the attention of the right person, 726 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: and being indoors was kind of more of a luxurious 727 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 1: choice for all parts of the aristocracy because, as I 728 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: mentioned in my Facebook post, it had to do with labor. 729 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: If you're tanned and go outside a lot, it's because 730 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 1: you're poor and you tend to the fields, your skin darkens. 731 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: Men were allowed to darken a little because they had 732 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,320 Speaker 1: to run the country, so they went out to court. 733 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: Men were also the administrators for the property of the 734 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 1: women in their lives, since at this time period women 735 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: were allowed to inherit residences, property, and obtain income in 736 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: the form of rice. They held title and core positions. 737 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 1: But because you didn't literally live in the fields, you 738 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: had to send someone to go get your rice for you. 739 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: That was the job of the men, although the most 740 00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: elite of men would still have people to do that 741 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: for them. If you are low rank, you probably have 742 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: to go do that for yourself because you'd have no 743 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: other vassals. Low ranking women wouldn't do this just because 744 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: it'd be hard, and honestly, they'd have a better life 745 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: if they tried to become a lady in waiting for 746 00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: some prominent figure. So as a social construct, they would 747 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: be encouraged to be indoors more often as well. And 748 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: of course there Elizabeth is explaining our discussion about how 749 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,919 Speaker 1: over certain periods in Japanese history, women were basically quote 750 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 1: unquote like not allowed to go outside, that they it 751 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: wasn't social acceptable for women to like be out and 752 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: about um, so she's explaining the whole like women staying 753 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: in their rooms thing. She goes on to say, Oh, 754 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 1: and as a general note about loyalty and stuff, it's 755 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 1: been noted through different parts of Asia that women are 756 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: often believed to be more loyal than men, which is 757 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,120 Speaker 1: also kind of an odd side effect of Confucianism as well. 758 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: Confucianism teaches that while you should respect the leaders and 759 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,280 Speaker 1: people above you for their ultimate decision, if you believe 760 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: that they're doing wrong, you're allowed to attempt to set 761 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,040 Speaker 1: them on the correct path. In terms of a leader 762 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: vassal type relationship, if your leaders a jerk, you're allowed 763 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,240 Speaker 1: to quit and find a new allegiance. In China and practice, 764 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,360 Speaker 1: I remember from one course that a scholar had apparently 765 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: remarked about the citizens in a town facing the attack 766 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: from an army, the men ran away while the women 767 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: valiantly killed themselves. Women were also thought of as more 768 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,760 Speaker 1: willing and able to kill themselves because of the social 769 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: pressure put upon them by Confucianism. So because they were 770 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,840 Speaker 1: subjected to so much and expected to be loyal to 771 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: the men in their lives, it was easier for them 772 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: to die for a greater cause, like an incoming enemy 773 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,800 Speaker 1: or even in the case of going into battle. Plus, 774 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, women cheating and all that was highly frowned upon. 775 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: But because men didn't have to adhere to loyalties day 776 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: to day, they would change allegiances easily or would run away. 777 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: So Elizabeth, I'm really sorry I couldn't read your whole email, 778 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: but I do want to thank you for ending it 779 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,120 Speaker 1: with anyway. Still love the podcast and thanks for talking 780 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: about all of these subjects, and thanks to all of 781 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: you who are written into us. Moms Stuff at House 782 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,279 Speaker 1: Stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You can also 783 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: find links to all of our social media as well 784 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcast us, including 785 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 1: this one with links to our sources so you can 786 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,319 Speaker 1: read all about that tender melt down we can't get 787 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,359 Speaker 1: enough of. Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told 788 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 789 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com