1 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: All right, y'all. So look, it was four twenty three am. 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Snow was falling heavily. John O'Keefe's niece called a lady 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: by the name of Jennifer McKay and told her that 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Karen Reid was quote distraught because o'keeif had not come 5 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: home and was not answering his cell phone. Joshua Schiffer, 6 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: defense attorney extraordinaire. He's been here several times. He's part 7 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: of my Zone seven. He ought to be part of yours. 8 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: So we are not gonna hesitate tonight at all because 9 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: we are gonna, well, we're gonna try our best, y'all 10 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: to run through this Karen Reid case. Give everybody just 11 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: a brief rundown in case they have missed this case 12 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 1: some much where what happened. 13 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: So the nutshell is that there's this relationship between Karen 14 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: and John o'keeth and she is a successful, beautiful financial executive. 15 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: He is a handsome police officer. You know. They live 16 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: in this suburb. Campton, Massachusetts, is just outside Boston to 17 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: the south and just a little bit to the west. 18 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 2: It's a commuter town. Longest hops all the towns up 19 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 2: there have been around for one hundreds of years, so 20 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: these are really ingrained, long developed towns with a good 21 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: mix of people. 22 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: And this whole thing started January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. 23 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: Correct, yes, and well started, that's the incident day. And 24 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: when it starts, there's questions about that, because, oh, that's a. 25 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: Good point, honey. 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: You're getting into these interpersonal relationships, so of course there's 27 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: going to be allegations about how strong the relationship was, 28 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: whether they were at each other's throats, are deeply in love, 29 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: or a mix of both. And we know that a 30 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: lot of these tumultuous relationships, you see a lot of calm, 31 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: peaceful love punctuated by moments of extraordinary passion which leads 32 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: to violence. 33 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: We see that a lot in these domestic violence cases, 34 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: where everything can be going great, but whatever the triggering 35 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 2: event is changes everything. The whole world turns upside down 36 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 2: and the sweetest people in the world become vicious killers. 37 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: It's part of that emotional reaction that's at the hardest 38 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 2: only violent crimes. So we've got this lovely couple and 39 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: they're basically out and about partying. It's the New Year's time. 40 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: They've got snow on the ground. It's the winter, it's 41 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: post Christmas. Everybody's living it up, and so they're out 42 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: and about at this bar and they're going to go home. 43 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: But then around the time that they packing up and 44 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: going home midnightish, it turns out that John o'keef is 45 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: going to go over to this family friends, and she, Karen, 46 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: is going to drive him there. And that's the last 47 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: thing that everybody kind of agrees on, is that John 48 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: O'Keefe and Karen Reid, we're going to drive over to 49 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: this family that they know, and that John's going to 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: get dropped off and continue party. And the house that 51 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: they're being dropped off at is another law enforcement house 52 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: where two sisters and two husbands are having a party. 53 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: And that's really where everything goes questionable. According to the defense, 54 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: john o'keef gets out of the car and goes into 55 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: the party, but according to the state, the state believes 56 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: that he never even went inside the party, and there's 57 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: big factual disputes about what happens when John O'Kean arrives 58 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: at this location with the only thing that we know 59 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: is he dies and he is found in this driveway 60 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: right to the side of it in a snow bank, 61 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: and it's the next morning. I don't know if anybody 62 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 2: can really say what happened. And that's the real problem 63 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: with this prosecute. What we know is that a well regarded, 64 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: heroic police officer is dead, and that's awful. And we 65 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: know that he died under circumstances that are tragic and 66 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: not of his own choosing. This is obviously a death 67 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: that was not planned. It was an accidental, wasn't intentional, 68 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: I don't know. But we have a dead police officer 69 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: at the house of some other police officers. We have 70 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: a girlfriend who has not been her best defender, has 71 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: said things that would cause any normal person to really 72 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: scratch their head, and it doesn't make sense. But then 73 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: all that's overlaid into the wildness that is this Boston community. 74 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: And I'm telling you people, this is as old America 75 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: as you get. This community is deeply, deeply established, and 76 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: there is more cynicism in this case facing law enforcement 77 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: than I can remember in any other law enforcement related 78 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: kriminal case kind of ever. I've never seen an accused 79 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: cop killer be cheered on her way to court and 80 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: charl this is just wild. 81 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: It is wild. And let's talk about some of the 82 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding this case. You do not want your significant 83 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: other to die under suspicious circumstances when they have got 84 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: voicemails and text messages from you saying you can't stand him, 85 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: you could just killing and et cetera. 86 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is some inter relationship dynamics here that they 87 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: clearly never expected anyone to look into. And the problem 88 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: when you get into any of these super private one 89 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: on one conversations is we're deaf, dub and blind to 90 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: how that conversation exists in the universe. We get that snapshot, 91 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: but it's text on page and the emotion is lacking 92 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: on that and that allows it to be used both 93 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: correctly and wrongfully by people with an agenda. And I 94 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 2: think that agenda pushing is at the heart of a 95 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: lot of this story. And you see law enforcement protecting themselves, 96 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: You see law enforcement acting in what a way is 97 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: that they're trying to keep their heads high and do 98 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: everything right and keep the integrity of the system. But 99 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: at the same time, there's so many unexplained issues and 100 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: there's very legitimate defense questions that the law enforcement community 101 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: is gonna be focused on and picked apart. And unfortunately, 102 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: law enforcement's made of humans, and while most of them 103 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: are just absolutely the finest people in the world, sometimes 104 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: you find mistakes and sometimes things weren't done right. And 105 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: I think we're gonna deal with a lot of those 106 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: kind of allegations and how an imperfect investigation fits into 107 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: a prosecution, because everybody will tell you that there could 108 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: have been more investigation, especially with the cause of death. 109 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: And for people that are just tuning in and catching 110 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: up on this, the cause of death in this case 111 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: is a head scratcher because Officer O'Keeffe's body is found 112 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: outside in the snow where lots of people ostensibly went 113 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: past it. But the physical injuries are going to be 114 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: a huge focus, and lucky enough to have shared with 115 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: us some of the photographs. There's a very very visceral 116 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: one of this arm with these vertical parallel scratches, and 117 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: a lot of people, myself included, question how those kind 118 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: of injuries could have flowed from the death circumstances the 119 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: state has put at the center of their case, which 120 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: is that Officer O'Keefe was backed into and run over, 121 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 2: And meanwhile, the defense has put forward this theory that 122 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 2: Officer O'Keefe actually was in the house. There's a big 123 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: difference of opinion there. Did he ever get in the 124 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: house or did he not get in the house. And 125 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 2: there are allegations that these injuries were caused I guess 126 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: by a dog. But Cheryl, you've seen enough dog bite 127 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: those are my dog bites to. 128 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: You, it looks like a dog with one too. 129 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it just doesn't even make so I've think, yeah, up. 130 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. There should have been multiple people 131 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: to see that when your life is messy, our case 132 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: is going to be messy. Here's one text message that 133 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: they have recovered that talks about there was some type 134 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: of romantic entanglement that a friend who was present at 135 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: the bar where John and Karen were they were all together. 136 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: Now that's messy in my world. I'm now real interested 137 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: in Joshua's world. Oh that don't mean anything. But here's 138 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: the deal. That's what I'm saying. It's messy. As soon 139 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: as I am forced to look right, Joshua was over 140 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: here looking left. He's saying, look, grown people have grown 141 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: folk stuff going on. But to me, I'm seeing motive and. 142 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: It's absolutely there because we've seen these personal dynamics, and 143 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: then you add a little bit of liquor on top 144 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: of it, and all kinds of stuff could have been happening. 145 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: Because you've got these really closely involved people and law enforcement. 146 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: It's a community. They're either in the cop universe or 147 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: you're not. And that's because of how important law enforcement 148 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: work is to defining you as a. 149 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: Person, especially in Boston. 150 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Boston, man, you've got this tradition of law 151 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: enforcement that goes back a couple of hundred years. It 152 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: is a family affair, it is multi generational. How important 153 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: being a public servant is. And that's also what begins 154 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: part of this circus on the outside what a lot 155 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 2: of people would never just believe because these kind of 156 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: people don't necessarily exist in your community. There's this whole 157 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: universe of chatter on the outside of the media, and 158 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: it's kind of like your nosy neighbor or your angry 159 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: subdivision person who writes the nasty blog. There's this gentleman 160 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: named Aiden Kearney who for over a decade in Massachusetts 161 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: has been known as Turtle Boy and has won this 162 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: kind of cottage industry tabloid and I don't want to 163 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: beat up on him, because he has provided a lot 164 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: of interesting perspective, and I respect freedom of speech, and 165 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 2: I really do appreciate how he's uncovered some horrific corruption, 166 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: some bad stuff. But no one's gonna say he's a 167 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: nice guy. No one's gonna say that his tactics are 168 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 2: comforting or appropriate to share or a good exemp because 169 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: he's sent some downright awful things and he's treated some 170 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: people in some absolutely unindefense up unconscionable ways. Well, now 171 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: that Turner boy's been out there for a while and 172 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: he's picked on many local leaders throughout Massachusetts. There's another 173 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: gentleman who is the son of a somewhat prominent lawyer, 174 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: a do gooder, his mom Wendy. But there's this guy 175 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: named Grant Ellis who is a citizen journalist that has 176 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 2: become very involved in this case. And between the two 177 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: of them, I've never seen a local population wound up 178 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: quite like this. And now we have a battle outside 179 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: the court where they've actually had to start appearing to 180 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: create a First Amendment buffer zone. This is the courthouse 181 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: where Sacho and Vanzetti were tried. By the way, this 182 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: is a historic setting. And so we've now got this 183 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: First Amendment battle going on on the outside where every 184 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: time Karen Reid or Ken Mellow or anybody else associated 185 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: with the case shows up to court, it is a 186 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 2: mob scene like nothing I've ever encounter. I'm talking verbal 187 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: bombs that are just offensive. 188 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: I agree, I've never seen anything like it. 189 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: People being verbally harassed, both members of the mainstream press 190 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: as well as this citizen press corps out there. It 191 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: is unbelievable, so much so that one of the famous, 192 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: you know, real firebrand First Amendment lawyers, Mark Randaza, has 193 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: been brought in to fight about this First Amendment zone. 194 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: And you see the videos every day that this case 195 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 2: is in court. You're going to be shared all kinds 196 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: of stuff on social media. It's unbelievable. 197 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: So I'm going to mention a couple of things and 198 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: that I want to get your take solely as a 199 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: defense attorney, like, how would you attack this. One of 200 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: the things that's come out is a voicemail where John 201 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: is talking that he wants to end the relationship. In 202 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: we have a voicemail from Karen on John's phone where 203 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: she says, John, if and hate you, but she don't say, 204 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: and calls him a pervert and then accuses him of 205 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: having an affair. Now to me, those are going to 206 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: be hard things to explain in a courtroom. 207 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: But but when you're explaining your you're losing. But that's 208 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: because when you're explaining, people are having to pay attention. 209 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: And if it is, it depends on I guess how 210 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: they're going to try to be handled. You can excuse 211 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: those kind of statements or you can embrace them. And 212 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: I know that my tongue has occasionally outrun my feelings 213 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: and brain and common sense that I hate you, gotta 214 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: own you, and I hear it be ugly. But I 215 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: also feel that the idea she would murder him is 216 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: a big jump, and I really wonder. I think the 217 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: defense is going to be predicated a lot on how 218 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: aggressive the state is with presenting the idea that she 219 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: was out to kill him at this moment in the 220 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: means that she did, which remember there were not talking about, 221 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: you know, a big plan, There is not this this 222 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: this malicious intent on the front end. I believe the 223 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: state's going to go with a heat of the moment, passion, 224 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: angry fight during the drive, but you never know. And 225 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: the defense has a lot of options with coming back 226 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: on some of these written documents the state's going to 227 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: use to leverage the mens rea or intent that Karen 228 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: Reid had to actually kill her long term boyfriend who 229 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: was a police officer. That's a big ask right there. 230 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: That's really a great point. And to your point, I'm 231 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: just going to piggybag. His niece and nephew lived with 232 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: the two of them, and they told law enforcement they 233 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: fight all the time. But again to your point, how 234 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: many fights have they had? Thirty fifty seventy five and 235 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: she never killed him? 236 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: And you and I have talked about this before. Now. 237 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: My relationship since my daytime life is just conflict and 238 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 2: all I do is conflict professionally. I like zero conflict 239 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: in my personal life and I avoid conflict. Other families 240 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: are different, and it doesn't mean that their love is 241 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: less authentic or that they're not a real cut. No, 242 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: they are just as married and happy as anybody else. 243 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: But their manifestation and expression that love it's not the 244 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: way that I do. Some of my dear friends fight 245 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: like cats and dogs, and it's almost like their love 246 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: is built on their recovery and Elliot that's what works 247 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: for them. Man, I don't have all the answers. If 248 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: that's what works, that's what works. And for all we know, 249 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: they're going to be able to paint the O'Keefe Reid 250 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: relationship as being very passionate and using passionate as a 251 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 2: as a as an analog for violent. There can be 252 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 2: these relationships where there's enormous volatility. That doesn't mean they 253 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: want to kill each other. And I think families and 254 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: jurors are going to understand that if the state relies 255 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 2: too strongly on some of these emails and messages written 256 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: with a lot of passion and fury and anger, but 257 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: that's because they were written and they disappeared into the ether. 258 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: They weren't real. They weren't authentic as I want to 259 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: say this and then follow up, No, they were momentary expressions. 260 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 2: If the state says this is the proof, look, she 261 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: wanted to kill she wanted man, that's over reliance and 262 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: a jerk and easily go are you kidding me? If 263 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: you are going to hang and convict me based on 264 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: everything I've ever texted, Wow, that's a terrible idea. 265 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: Some of us are in trouble hunting I'm not. 266 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: Telling you you don't want to be judged on everything 267 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: we've texted in our in our you know, heat of passion, 268 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: that is, that's a terrible idea. 269 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: The prosecution is probably going to put to the jury 270 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: at some point. Why not call Brian Albert whose house 271 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: it was, to see if Okeeth was there, passed out 272 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: on the couch. Why not call his partner? Why not 273 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: call nine one one? If she's claiming that John was 274 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: attacked inside that home, that a fight broke out and 275 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: then he was attacked by a dog. To me, that's 276 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: even more of a reason that you Albert and demand 277 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: to know whether or not John's there. But she doesn't 278 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: do that. 279 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: Karen's response isn't one of a loving, caring person the 280 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: way that it is in my family or a lot 281 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 2: of other families. But again, you've got their individual dynamic. 282 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: They may have treated each other rather poorly in their relationship. 283 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: We don't know, and not doing what you and I 284 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: would do certainly does not make her a criminal. 285 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: When we start expecting people to do something certain in 286 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: response to a crime or a criminal issue, we're playing 287 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: with fire. You can't effectively predict how someone is going 288 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: to react, you can analyze and say, oh, that reaction 289 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 2: falls within what I feel would be normal. But the 290 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 2: moment you start predicting what someone should or should not 291 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 2: have done and starting to say, oh, they are guilty 292 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: because they didn't do do this, that's dangerous. It invites 293 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: cynicism from a jury, and it really gets us far 294 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: away from certainty and knowing what actually happened. And I 295 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 2: think there's a big threshold issue here where if the 296 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 2: defense can continue focusing on what whether o'keef even got 297 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: into the house or not, if they can keep that 298 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: as a giant, so teeric question in the front of 299 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: every juror's mind and they spend the rest of d 300 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 2: all arguing about the cause and motive of death and 301 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: death if you can't answer whether he even went inside 302 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: the house, I think that weighs strongly for the defense, 303 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: because you've got to have at least some physical pathways 304 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 2: and processing where he's going to end up. That's logical, 305 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: and I don't know if the state can do that 306 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: effectively with the limited evidence they have now, because remember 307 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: there's a lot for people that are tuning in. There's 308 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: this idea of the damages to the vehicle, and the 309 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: state's version of the incident involves John o'keef getting hit 310 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: and run over by this vehicle and that is the 311 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: cause of death, and they have an expert that's going 312 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: to testify that the injuries were blunt force trauma like 313 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: being hit by a vehicle. There's a lot of gross 314 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 2: pictures and all kinds of nasty stuff, but we're not 315 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: seeing a substantial amount of body damage on the vehicle. 316 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 2: We're not seeing injuries that I feel are necessarily consistent 317 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: with a death by vehicle, which we've seen lots of times. 318 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: There's an enormous amount of academic material available to investigators 319 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: regarding body vehicle impact and it's not pretty, but you've 320 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: got to figure out how to answer some of these 321 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: empirical questions of how he actually died in order for 322 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: the state to move forward. And the defense has a 323 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: lot to pick on where it's not this destroyed rear end, 324 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: rear quarter of a vehicle. It's in reasonably that shape. 325 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: You've got some cracked glass, but that doesn't necessarily match 326 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 2: up to the injuries that the state is saying were 327 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: the cause of death. So we've got a whole lot 328 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: out there and again that's before we've even gotten into 329 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: whether he went into the house or not. And the 330 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: impeachment then comes in, because who are we asking all 331 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: these questions of. It's a bunch of law enforcement. It's 332 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: a bunch of people who we trust and we've trained 333 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: and we've empowered to be the good guy in our community. 334 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 2: And as anyone that does civil rights or criminal law 335 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 2: will tell you, cross examining the person in uniform that 336 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: we have been trained since birth to learn as the good, 337 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 2: safe person, that's hard coming out and trying to call 338 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: a cop a liar is virtually impossible unless you've really 339 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: got the receipts. So we've got to go through and 340 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: talk about how impeaching these officers who are kind of 341 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: also being accused of their own crime by the defense. 342 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: So think about that aspect. It's not just Karen Reid's 343 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 2: defense is I didn't do it. He went in and 344 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: was murdered. It's I didn't do it, he went in 345 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: was killed by a bunch of police officers. 346 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Five seven am. We've got video. 347 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: We've got video of Reed pulling out of her driveway 348 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 1: and she comes so close to John's car, that it 349 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: looks like she hit it, so is that how the 350 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: tail light got so? Now again I can't go right, 351 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: I am forced to look left. And then they tell me, well, 352 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: there's no glass in the driveway. Well, could that be 353 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: explained to yes? Possibly, maybe it's in the tire. Maybe 354 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: it hadn't fallen out yet. Maybe it didn't fall out 355 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: till they got to the other house and she parked. 356 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. 357 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 2: And there's snow and snow plows and weather, and this 358 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: was not what I'd call a thorough investigation. I think 359 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: everybody would say they could have done a lot more. 360 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: And there will be sufficiency of investigation arguments made by 361 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: the defense extensively in this And remember, Ladi, we haven't 362 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 2: even gotten to yet another one of the acts in 363 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: this case, which is the underlying allegations of nefarious crookery 364 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: and corruption within law enforcement itself, because while all of 365 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 2: this investigation is going on, Karen Reid and her cohort 366 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: have now gone to the Feds, and there are personal 367 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: and professional relationships with federal prosecutors, and federal prosecutors have 368 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: been investigating the Boston area police departments since long before 369 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: I was born, and They're going to be investigating them 370 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: long after I'm dead. This is the world of Whitey Bulger. 371 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 2: This is the world of organized crime. The FEDS do 372 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: not have a handshake BackRub best friends relationship with local 373 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 2: law enforcement. And Karen Reads successfully brought information to the 374 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: attention of the US Attorney's office that there is a 375 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: substantive investigation into the police activities and the prosecutors involved 376 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 2: in this case. So it's a story within a story 377 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: within yet another story, all going on at. 378 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: The same time, and none of it has a clear answer. 379 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: You've got the medical examiner saying, hey, John's injuries are 380 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: not indicative of somebody being in a fight. Well, that 381 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: may be true. Maybe his hands and knuckles weren't busted up, 382 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: maybe he didn't have defensive injuries, but he's got a 383 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 1: massive wound to the back of his head. Maybe he 384 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: was knocked out maybe the fight. Maybe he was incapable 385 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: of returning any punches. 386 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: And I just keep going back to the fact that 387 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: the state story may have a lot of truth in it, 388 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: but it's not complete. It sure leaves me with so 389 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: many questions because I've seen that picture and that's not 390 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: getting just run over and she's driving off and I'd 391 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 2: like to see a lot more firmness on the cause 392 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: of death and that explanation, because those photos do not 393 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 2: make sense when it comes to the state's theory of 394 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: the case, and I would hope the state would have 395 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: a better theory of the case. 396 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: Do you think they are really going to hammer her 397 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: statements like at the scene firefighters hear her say over 398 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: and over, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. 399 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: Oh. I think that that is at the heart of 400 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: the case. And from my knowledge and belief, they want 401 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: to make this as interpersonal as possible, make this into 402 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 2: a classic trope of angry, spiteful, mean woman in the 403 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: midst of a DV issue taking advantage of a guy 404 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: who had been drinking and was emotional and she was 405 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: dumping him off at a part. And I don't know 406 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 2: how they're going to emotionally couch the dispute they were 407 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 2: having that evening. But I think that the states kind 408 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: of box themselves into the story that they're sticking with, 409 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 2: which is that when he's out of the whatever is 410 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: happening there, And I don't know if they're going to 411 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: try to introduce a scuffle or an argument or what 412 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 2: they're going to try to do. But they need to 413 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: keep him from going inside the house. They need to 414 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: keep the cause of death being the vehicle. The moment 415 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 2: they start expanding possibilities of their story, they're giving the 416 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: defense why the big pathway to go on in there 417 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: and talk about why the state can't even tell you see, 418 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: And that's one of those damned if you do with 419 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: the state, and it's the difficulty of being a state prosecutor. 420 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 2: When you decide what happened, you have to go for it. 421 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: And if you've missed that target by a couple of 422 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: degrees on your trajectory, you didn't just miss violent man. 423 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: It's not horseshoes, it's not a haggering aate. You got 424 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: to nail it. So you can't have a successful state 425 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: prosecution of this case where you can't talk about whether 426 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: he made it inside or outside the house where there 427 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: wasn't a fight, but there might have been a no, 428 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 2: that's going to spoil this state story and feed into 429 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: an overarching defense, which is this entire system is corrupt, 430 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: This is all home cooked, This is a cover up. 431 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: And that's really the Karen Reid defense more than anything, 432 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: is that something bad happened, and she's the scapegoat. And 433 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: with the history of law enforcement in Massachusetts, there have 434 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: been some bad guys doing some bad stuff. And if 435 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 2: they needed to get rid of a cop for some 436 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 2: reason because of who knows, and we haven't talked about that, 437 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: what would the motivations be for Officer O'Keefe's murder by 438 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: these other people. Was it something as simple as a 439 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: personal slight that then turned into an argument that then 440 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: turned into a fight that turned into something far more 441 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: bombed than anybody intended. Or was this all a setup 442 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: and was he going to go say something, get somebody 443 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: in trouble, or betray these officers in some other way 444 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: because he knew some of these people very very well. 445 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: But there's one officer, a very highly trained boxer officer 446 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: that he didn't know very very well. And there's a 447 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 2: scuttle butt out there about what about the rumors we 448 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: don't even know about in our fish bowl of speculation 449 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: on the outside. What if there were other issues we 450 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: are just fully and completely blind to that were existing 451 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: in these relationships that would justify the violent murder of 452 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 2: John O'Keeffe and the framing of Karen Reid. And there's 453 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: a lot of people that believe, fully, full throatedly, Karen 454 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: Reid is being framed by these officers who wanted to 455 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 2: murder John O'Keefe. That is a standpoint that many people 456 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: believe is true. 457 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: If this was a movie and you're not, we're just 458 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: sitting at home watching she went to the fence. If 459 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: that ain't enough for somebody in that police department to go, 460 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: wait a minute, what has she said? What has John 461 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: told her? You know, the pilot hop. Has he ratted 462 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: us all out? Well, now you're getting into some real motive. 463 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, these careers, they're not just one person's life. 464 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: There's family involved. These people know each These are very 465 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: established communities. It's not like where I live. It's not 466 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: like what a lot of other people are familiar with it. 467 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: And for those who don't know, I know this because 468 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: I went to undergrad up in Massachusetts and have some 469 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 2: really good friends that are from so I've seen these communities. 470 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: And being a police officer, it's a huge deal, these 471 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: town jobs. That's something that people grow up and you 472 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: want to be the local police officer in your town. 473 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: But obviously there's some corruption and some greed and some 474 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: good stuff and some bad stuff that exists in any 475 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 2: law enforcement agency, and we just don't know all the details, 476 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: other than enough people are concerned that this has real lex, 477 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 2: that the idea of inside corruption, a cover up within 478 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: law enforcement, law enforcement, cheating, stealing, all that stuff. It's 479 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 2: real enough that there are people showing up protesting in trial. 480 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: Trial's going, it's live, and there are people that are 481 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: showing up and creating a huge circus outside this courthouse 482 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: every day. On both sides, you have people supporting law 483 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: enforcement and the state you have people supporting Karen Reed. 484 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: One of the biggest things for me forensically is that 485 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: John's DNA was found on the broken tail light. I 486 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: don't like that an issue. 487 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 2: But again, if you're whenever you're attacking a corrupt investigation 488 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 2: or a cover up, you get the luxury of questioning 489 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: all evidence. Uh. And I know that that you and 490 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: I having gone through so many investigations. Man, it's we've 491 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: we've heard every you know, cheap shot out there about 492 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: oh plan did I've heard it on coburger already with 493 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: the sheath, and we're gonna hear more about it because 494 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: there's only so many ways you can fight DNA. The 495 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: science is so well established mathematically that that is the 496 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: tissue sample that matches that tissue sample that means that 497 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: it's from the same person. That stuff is rock solid. 498 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: So the way that you attack these results is in 499 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: the evidence collection and preservation and how and why, And 500 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: again we get down to this broken tail light and 501 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: whether people believe that could have happened or if it's 502 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: a made up con excuse that fits close enough to 503 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: be the right cause of death. And that's where the 504 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 2: defense has really latched on, and they're gonna bluntly ask 505 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: the jury, do you think that that actually killed John o'keee? 506 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: Do you think that a low speed impact with a 507 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 2: tail light would have caused these injuries? And I can 508 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 2: see them pointing to the scratches, and the scratches are 509 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 2: kind of on the inside of the arm, And for 510 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: the life of me, I can't figure out a scenario 511 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 2: where being hit while being backed up into would cause 512 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 2: those kinds of injuries, even if he was bending down, 513 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: even if he was carrying something, even if he was 514 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 2: run over. Again, like, I don't even see them as 515 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: being drag injuries or something like that. They really are mysterious, 516 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: and I'd love a lot of inquiry into the physical 517 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 2: nature of those injuries from meta examiners and other expert witnesses. 518 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: And it's not road rash. I mean, there's spaced out 519 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: and I even thought under the bumper, let's just say 520 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: it happened under the bumper where there icicles or something 521 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: that could have cut into him. Like it's an odd 522 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: pattern to me, It. 523 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,959 Speaker 2: Really is, and it's wild of blood. I don't see 524 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: it being very clearly the result of a traditional beating 525 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: fight either. Oh no, yeah, fight cases, you get a 526 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 2: scattering of bruises and besides your usage cuts, what you're 527 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: gonna find on knuckles and elbows and knees. You know, 528 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: the injuries are all over. If you're going to beat 529 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: someone to death, you'd be surprised how violent you probably 530 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 2: need to be. There's very rarely the one or two 531 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: punches in their debt. No, you gotta pumble somebody. And 532 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 2: even with his blood alcohol content, and again we're going 533 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: to get into some interesting questions about what's in his blood, 534 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 2: what drugs and alcohol were press, what drugs and alcohol weren't, 535 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: How drunk were these people, And that of course brings 536 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: up to cover up, because hold on, what are a 537 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: bunch of badge carrying people doing that might not be 538 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: something they want to face an inquiry over. And that's 539 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 2: unfortunately the truth in law enforcement all the time is 540 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 2: there's always a want to make sure I'm not going 541 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: to get in trouble for doing my job, Like when 542 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: doctors do defensive medicine. Officers want to make sure that 543 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: if and when they're going to be subject to bringing 544 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: a case forward or face some sort of scrutiny, that 545 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 2: they did everything right. And sometimes people in law enforcement officers' 546 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: I alives don't do everything right. And there's plenty of 547 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: cases where that friend of the cop who wasn't a 548 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 2: cop and was making some mistakes threatened that cop safety 549 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: and well being by being present when another case occurred. 550 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: And who knows what was going on at this party. 551 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: Here's the deal. The defense says it's a cover up. 552 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: Prosecution says it's a murder for me. In order for 553 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: a cover up to happen on any case, you have 554 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: got to see that the police and the EMTs, and 555 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: the firefighters, and the medical examiners and the prosecutors, everybody's 556 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: got to be on the same page for that to 557 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: be pulled off. For the most part, that's difficult to do. 558 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,919 Speaker 1: Those core people, those first responding, tight knit group, Yeah, 559 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: they can navigate and maybe throw some red herons out there, 560 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: maybe get people's story straight. But again down the road, 561 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: the lab results are going to be what they are. 562 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: If they say there's no K nine DNA, there's no 563 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: K nine DNA on his injury. If they say that 564 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: there's tail like glass embedded in his clothing, then it 565 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: is they don't have a dog in the fight. They 566 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: weren't there and they don't know these folks. However, another thing, 567 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: and Josh, I won't your opinion on this, because I 568 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: thought this was pretty powerful. Karen Reid made a statement 569 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: and I'm quoting verbatim. I tried to save his life. 570 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: I tried to save his life at six in the morning. 571 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: I was covered in his blood. I was the only 572 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: one trying to save his life. 573 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: It doesn't line up. And you know, this is one 574 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 2: of my struggles with this kind of I think that 575 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 2: a lot of people are lying, and I think that 576 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 2: a lot of people are covering up the truth for 577 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: the reasons they need the truth covered up. And now 578 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 2: it's gotten disproportionate because the state's gotten involved and wants 579 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: to figure out what the answer is. And if I'm 580 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: Ken Mellow or if I'm one of the US attorneys, 581 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: I really want to get down to the bottom of 582 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 2: this because really there may be a broad neck that 583 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,879 Speaker 2: needs to get thrown from this case. But they've got 584 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 2: to go to Karen read first, And I I feel 585 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 2: terrible because I it's so hard to tell. It's just 586 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: so hard to tell, because Karen Reid could be snowing 587 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: all of us from the beginning and have this deep, 588 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: you know, thorough plant. I just I don't necessarily see 589 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: that her story doesn't add up. The injuries don't add up. 590 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 2: I believe that I don't believe the running into him 591 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 2: story because I just don't believe the physical app Now. 592 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 2: It could be because it hasn't been presented to me 593 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 2: in a full and thorough way, and I could just 594 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: be missing the storytelling that the state is doing on 595 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: that angle right now. But right now, I do not 596 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: see how they can show his death was caused merely 597 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 2: by bumping into him, running him over, and then abandoning 598 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 2: him in the snow for what six hours is basically 599 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 2: what they're saying five hours, and in between there are 600 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 2: some really awful text searches. There's some stuff about how 601 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: long to take someone to die, there's some stuff that 602 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 2: just doesn't make sense. And that bodes poorly for the 603 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 2: state because what the state can't do is throw all 604 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 2: the facts out there and then throw a dead body 605 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 2: on top and say that's murder, because that's not the 606 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 2: recipe for a conviction. That's not the recipe for a prosecution. 607 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 2: Our system demands that the state put it together for us, 608 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,879 Speaker 2: assemble the Lego project, and let us go Yes, that's 609 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 2: what it's supposed to be. Very clearly, that's what happened. 610 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 2: And my fear is that the state doesn't have enough firm, straightforward, 611 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: uncontrovertible evidence to put the story forward that the jury 612 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 2: can agree on. 613 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to say the same thing that I 614 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: said during Casey Anthony. If you do not know how 615 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: that baby died, we don't have murder. It's just that simple. 616 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: And I ain't spent one day in law school, but 617 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: it's just that simple. And at the time with Casey Anthony, 618 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: my four sisters all had a different opinion. One thought 619 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: the baby drowned, one thought that she got into drugs accidentally. 620 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: One thought mama did something to her with the chloroform 621 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: and the duct tape. The other one just thought it 622 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: was a horrible accident. Well, we don't have murder then, 623 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: And in this case, if you're telling me, he's got 624 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: these injuries, but it doesn't look like he's been in 625 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: a fight, It doesn't look like he was run over. 626 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: It looks like he hit his head somehow and froze 627 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,800 Speaker 1: in the snow. You're building your reasonable doubt within your own. 628 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 2: Prosecution exactly because I don't think the state can say, oh, 629 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 2: he didn't just lose consciousness and die of exposure, as 630 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 2: awful as that is. And can there be crimes as yes, 631 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 2: But when you get grand on how statutes work, murders 632 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 2: murdered pretty tough, especially when you've got all of this 633 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 2: alcohol and all of the lack of specifics what actually 634 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: was happening, and Karen Reid's not gonna admit to anything more. 635 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 2: We don't have video of what exchanges took place there 636 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 2: in that driveway. We've got a house party full of 637 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 2: people with a lot to lose who woke up to 638 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 2: have a dead cop on their front yard. I'd kind 639 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 2: of understand if they were nervous about sharing what happened. 640 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 2: And they're all law enforcements, so they unfortunately know how 641 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 2: challenging it can be to be the subject of an 642 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 2: investigation and how unfair it can feel to be the 643 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 2: subject of an investigation, and they could have clammed up. 644 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,399 Speaker 2: They could also have made bad choices about what to say, 645 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 2: how to say, who to say it too. And that's 646 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 2: a really important factor. No one knows how to defend 647 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 2: yourself against wrongful or rightful allegations more than law enforcement 648 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 2: because they deal with it every day. They're exposed to 649 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: people saying, oh, I didn't do it, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, 650 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 2: so they know how people react. And we've got a 651 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 2: layer that on top of it. And I feel that 652 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 2: there's so many questions that could be asked that there's 653 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 2: not answers to. Maybe the state can put them together 654 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 2: for trial. I would love a nice, firm, easy to 655 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: button up version with associated physical empirical evidence that is 656 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 2: acceptable and authentic. That would be great. It would also 657 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: mean a plea and no trial, because folks, we have 658 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 2: trials when good people can't agree. Trials answer the questions. 659 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 2: At the heart of their jury function is to determine 660 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 2: what the facts are. That is the purpose of a jury. 661 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 2: To listen to the evidence, to hear from the witnesses, 662 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 2: examine the physical items they can hold, and then they 663 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 2: will determine what the facts are and apply the law. 664 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 2: That is the ultimate purpose of that jury. It's the 665 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 2: best system we have. And I don't envy the arguments 666 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 2: in having to consider and analyze the evidence they're going 667 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 2: to face this week because an officer's debt and no 668 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 2: one is going to be telling the jury that full. 669 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: Truth, y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven the way 670 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: that I always do with a quote. The death car, 671 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: as the newspapers called it, didn't stop. It came out 672 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: of the gathering darkness, wavered tragically for a moment, and 673 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: then disappear around the next bend. F Scott Fitzgerald, The 674 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: Great Gatsby, Chapter seven. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is 675 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: Zone 676 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 2: The tape recas that deta