Speaker 1: So we asked y'all on Twitter if you were tired
Speaker 1: of hearing about the coronavirus, and some of y'all said yes,
Speaker 1: and some of y'all said no.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk a little bit about coronavirus, but
Speaker 2: not directly.
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, no matter what we talk about, it's
Speaker 1: impossible to escape this pandemic that's going on all around us.
Speaker 3: Like that is our backdrop. We can't not.
Speaker 1: Talk about the pandemic, but we can talk about things
Speaker 1: that are kind of like Corona adjacent.
Speaker 2: If the health crisis and the economic crisis run enough
Speaker 2: for you. We're also facing a housing crisis and that's
Speaker 2: a result of COVID nineteen, of this pandemic. I'm TT
Speaker 2: and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs.
Speaker 2: So I was watching on Twitter where some folks were
Speaker 2: protesting in New Orleans and they were physically blocking a
Speaker 2: landlord from submitting eviction papers for one of the tenants.
Speaker 3: I just can't believe this.
Speaker 1: Every day I wake up and there's a new headline,
Speaker 1: there's something else that the pandemic is affecting, And I'm
Speaker 1: just like, how.
Speaker 3: Much more can we take this? Is crazy.
Speaker 2: One of the latest headlines I saw was that by
Speaker 2: the end of September or October, we're expecting almost forty
Speaker 2: million Americans to be evicted or be in danger of eviction.
Speaker 1: That is a huge chunk of people. And I feel
Speaker 1: like we aren't talking about this enough.
Speaker 2: It's definitely not getting enough light.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, especially with the election season coming upon us,
Speaker 1: we need to know what we need to be asking
Speaker 1: these politicians for.
Speaker 2: Yes, what's the plan. Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 3: So what do we know?
Speaker 2: I mean, we know that the coronavirus spread has put
Speaker 2: folks in a tough situation. People are losing their jobs,
Speaker 2: so they don't have a lot of money to pay
Speaker 2: their rent or mortgage.
Speaker 1: I think another thing that we know is that the
Speaker 1: unemployment rate is really really high right now, like it
Speaker 1: reached record levels. I don't know if you remember back
Speaker 1: a few months ago, there was that long car line
Speaker 1: of people just trying to get food.
Speaker 2: Yeah, food banks. People were lining up at food banks,
Speaker 2: and the food banks were running out of food and
Speaker 2: there were just so many people lined up and it.
Speaker 1: Was like miles of cars. And it's because people were
Speaker 1: losing their jobs and didn't have a way to make money,
Speaker 1: so that everybody was lining up trying to get some
Speaker 1: type of help.
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that we know is, even
Speaker 2: pre Corona, the United States suffered from a housing deficit.
Speaker 2: So there are many states where there are more families
Speaker 2: in need of housing than there are available housing units.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And so when you take those things together.
Speaker 3: This isn't a new problem.
Speaker 2: This is just a problem magnified, right.
Speaker 1: And I also feel like we know that this is
Speaker 1: not over. We're not getting out of this whole situation
Speaker 1: with social distancing and quarantining and all that. For a while,
Speaker 1: it looks like, yeah, so what do we want to know?
Speaker 2: Well, I think we want to know how this housing
Speaker 2: crisis came about. How do we get to the point
Speaker 2: where forty million people are in jeopardy?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: I want to know specific things that went down, like
Speaker 1: a timeline to get us to where we are right now.
Speaker 2: And I know it's in some way tied to the recession.
Speaker 2: And we've had a housing recession, you know, we've had
Speaker 2: that type of market collapse in the past. Is this
Speaker 2: the same as that? And if we know it's the same,
Speaker 2: when is it going to be over? How can we
Speaker 2: fix it or is it different?
Speaker 1: And I want to know these forty million people. Who
Speaker 1: are they? Who is most likely to be in that
Speaker 1: forty million?
Speaker 2: And if you are housing insecure or in danger of
Speaker 2: losing your home, what are your options. Let's get some answers.
Speaker 2: Let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 3: Our guest for this lab is Michael O'Neil.
Speaker 4: My name is Michael Neil. I am a senior research
Speaker 4: associate in the Housing Finance Policy Center here at the
Speaker 4: Urban Institute.
Speaker 2: Michael's career in economics, finance, and policy has spanned the
Speaker 2: last twenty years, and he's worked on Wall Street, Capitol Hill,
Speaker 2: and the Federal Reserve. More recently, his focus has moved
Speaker 2: to housing and he spent time at the National Association
Speaker 2: of home Builders and Fannie May. He's the perfect expert
Speaker 2: for this episode.
Speaker 1: Michael's day to day is really a mixture of a
Speaker 1: lot of different things. There's engagement with press and media,
Speaker 1: so he's doing interviews just like this one, where he
Speaker 1: tries to communicate economic concepts in ways that are easy
Speaker 1: for people to understand. He's also doing a lot of
Speaker 1: data analysis where he's running statistical programs, checking results and
Speaker 1: reporting those results. But there's a third piece, and that
Speaker 1: part of his job is what we wanted to focus
Speaker 1: on today.
Speaker 4: Which is how do you engage with people on the
Speaker 4: ground who are actually making the economic decisions. And I
Speaker 4: think that's a key part of this that you know,
Speaker 4: whether you're talking to homebuilders, or you're talking to home buyers,
Speaker 4: or you're talking to anyone who's making any kind of
Speaker 4: decision on how they're going to allocate their resources, you
Speaker 4: know that has implications for the economy.
Speaker 2: We're all trying to make better, more informed decisions to
Speaker 2: navigate our current crisis, right and that starts with a
Speaker 2: good foundational understanding of what's going on. So let's just
Speaker 2: start with the basics. Economics is really just understanding how
Speaker 2: resources are dispersed and used.
Speaker 1: And when you think about those resources, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of different sectors of the economy housing, financial markets, energy, agriculture.
Speaker 1: But for today's lab like we said, we're going to
Speaker 1: focus only on housing.
Speaker 2: Let's just boom out and take a bird's eye view
Speaker 2: of what's happening right now.
Speaker 1: So we're in the middle of a pandemic and folks
Speaker 1: are losing their homes. The economy is suffering, and that
Speaker 1: means that people don't have the means to pay for housing.
Speaker 2: These estimates of housing insecurity are changing month to month.
Speaker 2: They're just going up and up. In June, it was
Speaker 2: estimated that anywhere from nineteen to twenty three million people
Speaker 2: could be evicted. In August, it was just changed to
Speaker 2: thirty to forty million. That is a big jump.
Speaker 3: Huge jump in just a couple of months.
Speaker 2: And if that estimate is right, that's about ten percent
Speaker 2: of Americans.
Speaker 1: And the Aspen Institute predicts that one in five Americans
Speaker 1: that are renting their homes are at risk of eviction
Speaker 1: by the end of September. Now that we understand this,
Speaker 1: who is affected the most? So we know that the
Speaker 1: rental market is disproportionately impacted by this.
Speaker 4: In part because COVID's impact on the word labor market
Speaker 4: was disproportionately impacted Renters, people who work in industries like
Speaker 4: accommodation services, like the retail sector that all that typically
Speaker 4: tend to be renters as opposed to being homeowners.
Speaker 2: And even if you aren't renting, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: you're totally in the clear.
Speaker 4: On the homeowner side. There's some evidence to suggest that
Speaker 4: it's those with lower credit scores, those with higher debt
Speaker 4: to income ratios, those with kind of more modest credit
Speaker 4: profiles who are more likely to be impacted, in part
Speaker 4: because they may work in uh IN in those industries
Speaker 4: that were hardest.
Speaker 1: Had and Michael points out that there are two other
Speaker 1: groups of people that have been affected.
Speaker 4: Second, certainly lower income people, given the industries that have
Speaker 4: been disproportionally impacted. Number three, people of color, African Americans.
Speaker 4: Hispanics have been disproportionately impacted for African for African Americans,
Speaker 4: both in terms of their health as well as their economics.
Speaker 2: So let's try to understand how COVID is wreaking so
Speaker 2: much havoc on the economy and the housing market Specifically.
Speaker 1: History is the great teacher and it can also give
Speaker 1: us some context.
Speaker 2: So let's turn back the clock to two thousand and
Speaker 2: eight and a Great recession.
Speaker 1: And if you're listening to this, you were probably alive
Speaker 1: during the Great Recession, and remember how awful it was.
Speaker 2: A recession is defined as a significant decline in economic activity.
Speaker 1: And a recession can be triggered by a lot of
Speaker 1: different things. A financial crisis, an economic bubble bursting, large
Speaker 1: scale natural disaster or even a pandemic.
Speaker 2: In the Great Recession, which was from two thousand and
Speaker 2: seven to two thousand and nine, real GDP.
Speaker 1: That's gross domestic product, and that is a number that
Speaker 1: determines the economic health of a country.
Speaker 2: It fell four point three percent from its peak in
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. This was the largest decline in
Speaker 2: the post war era. The unemployment rate, which was five
Speaker 2: percent in December two thousand and seven, peaked at ten
Speaker 2: percent in October two thousand and nine.
Speaker 4: For some people, there was a sense after the Great
Speaker 4: Recession that that was roughly about as bad as things
Speaker 4: could ever get.
Speaker 3: But that's not true.
Speaker 4: This recession has eclipsed that. When we look at what
Speaker 4: we call the macroeconomic variables, things like GDP, unemployment, the
Speaker 4: unemployment rate you know, peaking to fifteen percent GDP declining
Speaker 4: on an annuary basis by thirty three percent, just numbers
Speaker 4: that are incredible.
Speaker 3: Do y'all hear that.
Speaker 1: If you were alive during the Great Recession and you
Speaker 1: remember how crazy that was, this is a lot worse.
Speaker 2: And this is also different in terms of why it happened.
Speaker 2: In two thousand and eight, it was irresponsible lending, and
Speaker 2: it was triggered by the housing bubble burst in two
Speaker 2: thousand and five.
Speaker 3: This time it's a little different.
Speaker 4: This is still motivated by a health crisis, very different,
Speaker 4: I think from the Great Recession.
Speaker 1: And Michael says that this recession hit like a natural
Speaker 1: disaster as opposed to people exploiting the housing market, and
Speaker 1: that means that there were implications for what kind of
Speaker 1: policy was prescribed.
Speaker 4: And in a world in which the risk really reflects
Speaker 4: something that happened through no fault of my own, then
Speaker 4: that's where we really need to think seriously about the
Speaker 4: degree to which this crisis actually echoes the Great Recession,
Speaker 4: because the policy response, at least on the mortgage side,
Speaker 4: seems to be somewhat similar, and yet the source of
Speaker 4: the impact appears to be somewhat different.
Speaker 2: So, knowing that, let's put all of this in context,
Speaker 2: let's map it right on the timeline, starting from the
Speaker 2: beginning of twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: All I know is that I was minding my business,
Speaker 1: enjoying the new year, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty turned into the worst year.
Speaker 3: Of all time. By the end of February.
Speaker 2: Michael laid out what's happening with housing in stages, and
Speaker 2: the first three stages can pretty much be summed up
Speaker 2: as good, bad, then worse. Let's start with the good.
Speaker 4: The immediate implication of COVID nineteen was in some ways
Speaker 4: actually positive for housing activity. We actually saw mortgage applications
Speaker 4: for purchases and refrising that's refinancing actually spike in that
Speaker 4: January early February period.
Speaker 1: At the beginning of twenty twenty, unemployment was at historic lows,
Speaker 1: thanks Obama. But markets react to what's going on, and
Speaker 1: it seemed like coronavirus might be a problem, and if
Speaker 1: the economy took a hit, they didn't know how bigger
Speaker 1: small it would be.
Speaker 2: So mortgage interest rates dropped because we believe the economy
Speaker 2: could still hang in there. So houses became more affordable,
Speaker 2: construction was cheaper, and people's tendency to refinance so take
Speaker 2: their loan back to get a lower rate and end
Speaker 2: up paying less each month, that tendency increased.
Speaker 4: But then when it became clear that COVID nineteen was
Speaker 4: going to have a much more a much deeper impact
Speaker 4: on the economy, as shelter and place orders were put in,
Speaker 4: and again I definitely want to reiterate that they are
Speaker 4: definitely key for protecting the health of the public. It's
Speaker 4: a tradeoff. But as all of those were put in,
Speaker 4: then you had a situation in which as businesses closed,
Speaker 4: as people were laid off and they had less income,
Speaker 4: we saw that. We certainly saw this decline in what
Speaker 4: we call aggregate.
Speaker 1: Demand, and aggregate demand is just like it sounds, just
Speaker 1: demand for the entire economy. So now we're about in
Speaker 1: February March, and we've still got lower interest rates, but
Speaker 1: we also have higher unemployment rates.
Speaker 2: But what was also happening is that as the interest
Speaker 2: rates are down and the unemployment rates started going up,
Speaker 2: we were also seeing housing prices continue to increase despite
Speaker 2: applications to buy a home beginning to decline.
Speaker 1: So less people were trying to get a home, but
Speaker 1: the prices for houses are going up.
Speaker 2: That doesn't make sense. That goes against everything a lot
Speaker 2: about demand you have supplied. There is no demand drop.
Speaker 1: The price exactly, these houses should be free ninety nine.
Speaker 1: So some people whose houses were still increasing in value
Speaker 1: but who were seeing a lower mortgage rate were able
Speaker 1: to refinance and get a lower rate or a shorter
Speaker 1: term on their mortgage.
Speaker 2: But then as we move on into what Michael calls
Speaker 2: the third phase of COVID related housing trends. This is
Speaker 2: about March, April or May, it became clear that many
Speaker 2: people were not going to be able to pay their mortgage.
Speaker 2: You only had to look at the unemployment rate continuing
Speaker 2: to rise in order to understand that mortgages were at risk.
Speaker 4: Historically, your ability to pay your mortgage is largely to
Speaker 4: to whether or not you have a job, and so
Speaker 4: historically what we see is that the mortgage delinquency rate
Speaker 4: will track the unemployment rate.
Speaker 1: The unemployment rate in April of this year twenty twenty
Speaker 1: got up to fourteen point seven percent.
Speaker 3: That has never happened before.
Speaker 4: So as the unemployment rate was rising, we started to
Speaker 4: see more people not being able to make their mortgage payments,
Speaker 4: which had serious implications for the mortgage market.
Speaker 1: And there you have it, good, bad, and then worse.
Speaker 1: And then came a fourth stage where, for various reasons,
Speaker 1: some states started to open up again. This led to
Speaker 1: a decrease in the unemployment rate.
Speaker 4: As well as actually a recovery in purchase applications, suggesting
Speaker 4: that demand to buy a home was actually beginning to recover,
Speaker 4: and that really I think culminated with the strong home
Speaker 4: sales numbers that we saw that we saw in June,
Speaker 4: where new and existing home sales really rose by something
Speaker 4: on a north of two twenty percent. But where we
Speaker 4: are now is indications again COVID being at the center
Speaker 4: of this. Where we are now is indications that perhaps
Speaker 4: we are not recovering to the same degree that we
Speaker 4: originally fought, particularly when states were beginning to roll back
Speaker 4: their shelter and place orders.
Speaker 1: So that brings us to present day. What emoji would
Speaker 1: you assign to present day twenty twenty housing the vomit
Speaker 1: emoji for me.
Speaker 2: I don't even know, Like the trash can trash trash can.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so now there is a very real risk
Speaker 4: that a lot of on what we experienced in February, March,
Speaker 4: and April could come back.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and when we get back,
Speaker 1: we're going to jump into the path to housing security.
Speaker 3: We're back, and.
Speaker 1: After everything that we talked about in the first half
Speaker 1: of this lab refinance and interest rates, mortgage rates, all
Speaker 1: these things like that, now we need to push all
Speaker 1: of that to the side and get to the people
Speaker 1: that are affected by all of this. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: speak broadly about the different types of people that are
Speaker 1: involved in the housing equation, just so that you can
Speaker 1: understand all the different roles.
Speaker 2: Let's start with the renters. So people that are renting
Speaker 2: may be in a lower economic group, so earning less
Speaker 2: than homeowners and just have less to start with, Michael says.
Speaker 2: They also may be in industries that are hardest hit,
Speaker 2: like accommodation services and the retail sector. This jeopardizes their
Speaker 2: income either way, the rent is due, and unless there
Speaker 2: are policies to provide income assistance or prevent evictions, they're
Speaker 2: at risk of losing their homes.
Speaker 1: And then you have homeowners. Homeowners and property owners also
Speaker 1: may be in the group of folks that have lost
Speaker 1: their jobs or were furloughed and are unable to pay
Speaker 1: their mortgage. And an owner of a property is responsible
Speaker 1: for paying the mortgages, even if they're tenants. The runners
Speaker 1: we just talked about are unable to pay, so the
Speaker 1: issue starts to compound.
Speaker 2: Then there's the lenders. Lenders are banks and financial institutions
Speaker 2: that lend the money to borrowers to purchase a home.
Speaker 2: When we think about lenders. They come in a couple
Speaker 2: different categories. Sometimes your bank can be your lender. So
Speaker 2: if you bank with Wells Fargo, Bank of America City,
Speaker 2: they all have like a mortgage branch, they can be
Speaker 2: mortgage lenders. There are also some online lenders, so Quickened
Speaker 2: Loans is an online lender. I just read about Guild Mortgage.
Speaker 2: That's an online lender. Lenders are required to funnel the
Speaker 2: mortgage payment from the borrower back to the investors securing
Speaker 2: the loan.
Speaker 1: And that leads us to the investors that are securing
Speaker 1: the loans, and a mortgage investor is the party that
Speaker 1: purchases the mortgages from the lenders. In most cases, the
Speaker 1: investors are actual government entities like Fanny May and Freddie
Speaker 1: Mac or government sponsored enterprises like FAJA or the VA,
Speaker 1: and they purchase your home loans, so your lender is
Speaker 1: able to continue selling new home loans, and those investors
Speaker 1: want their money, and this is why we need a
Speaker 1: life raft for everyone.
Speaker 4: The policy prescription should then take into account the fact
Speaker 4: that people may not be paying their mortgages or may
Speaker 4: not be able to pay their rent through no fault
Speaker 4: of their own.
Speaker 2: So there were already some efforts. Back in March, the
Speaker 2: Cares Act was passed, and this included an additional six
Speaker 2: hundred dollars in unemployment benefits and a one hundred twenty
Speaker 2: day moratorium on evictions. This means you can't evict someone
Speaker 2: who's unable to pay their rent for one hundred twenty days.
Speaker 1: And that relief only applied to federally backed mortgages, so
Speaker 1: mortgages from lenders that are funded by the government like
Speaker 1: Fannie May, Freddie Mac, and the FAJ.
Speaker 2: While that's a great program, the Urban Institute says that
Speaker 2: only accounts for about twenty eight percent of renters.
Speaker 1: The moratorium on evictions expired July twenty fourth, and the
Speaker 1: six hundred dollars additional stimulus benefit payments stopped on July
Speaker 1: thirty first, so this leaves a lot more people unable
Speaker 1: to pay their rent or mortgage.
Speaker 2: On August eighth, Trump signed for executive orders, one of
Speaker 2: which was billed as a federal eviction ban, but it's
Speaker 2: not technically a ban. It doesn't even extend the moratorium
Speaker 2: from before. Instead, it allows agencies to consider eviction protection
Speaker 2: and it allows them to look for sources of funding
Speaker 2: to assist people that are renting, but it doesn't mandate
Speaker 2: that they do anything.
Speaker 3: So they can help you, but they don't have to
Speaker 3: help you.
Speaker 2: Another part of the care is act that we didn't
Speaker 2: mention is forbearance.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I think that the data
Speaker 4: is clear on is that forbearance has certainly helped homeowners,
Speaker 4: particularly the most vulnerable homeowners, remain in their homes.
Speaker 2: And this basically allows you to push off your payments
Speaker 2: until a later date when you will hopefully be in
Speaker 2: a better financial position.
Speaker 4: Forbearance has been key to helping people to maintain their
Speaker 4: homes even when they can't make their mortgage payment. But
Speaker 4: on the renter side, forbearance is also important because somebody
Speaker 4: owns the building and so property owners also get forbearance,
Speaker 4: which is going to be important for them because they
Speaker 4: take the income that renters pay and turn around and
Speaker 4: pay whatever mortgage that they have on the property.
Speaker 1: So allowing homeowners to go into forbearance is the best
Speaker 1: way to ensure that the market remains somewhat stable.
Speaker 4: But the other side of the coin is that forbearance.
Speaker 4: While forbearance gives relief to borrowers, it does not give
Speaker 4: relief to the mortgage holders.
Speaker 1: And that's because the mortgage holders are still on the
Speaker 1: hook to move those mortgage payments from borrower to investor.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's this chain, there's the money chain.
Speaker 2: Your money has to go from borrower to your mortgage
Speaker 2: servicer to the lender, and then the lender has to
Speaker 2: turn it over to the investor. Now, sometimes a lender
Speaker 2: and the servicer are the same, usually if you have
Speaker 2: a bank backed mortgage. But either way, as a borrower,
Speaker 2: you have to pay. And this has affected a lot
Speaker 2: of smaller lenders who are now on the hook to
Speaker 2: deliver four to six months of mortgage payments to investors.
Speaker 1: So I mean, hearing all this, you think, oh, forbearons,
Speaker 1: that's great, But there is another side to it, another
Speaker 1: side that can negatively affect people who want to take
Speaker 1: advantage of the housing market right now. So if people
Speaker 1: buy a house and then immediately lose their job, then
Speaker 1: request for barans, which is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: Lenders can see that coming from a mile away, that
Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of people that are
Speaker 1: going to be requesting for bearans. So then they may say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to change the requirements. I'm going to change
Speaker 1: the standards that will dictate whether or not we are
Speaker 1: going to lend to a person, which then makes it
Speaker 1: more difficult for people to buy a home.
Speaker 2: The Urban Institute says that it's significantly harder for borrowers
Speaker 2: with less than pristine credit to qualify for a mortgage
Speaker 2: today than it was just four months ago because of forbearance. Basically,
Speaker 2: they're estimating that these new penalties because of forbearance will
Speaker 2: limit home ownership and refinancing opportunities for about two hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty five thousand credit worthy borrowers. And the folks
Speaker 2: disproportionately affected by this you already know.
Speaker 4: And so that's kind of the dual of forbearance is
Speaker 4: on the one hand, yes, it has had a positive
Speaker 4: impact in terms of keeping current homeowners in their home,
Speaker 4: but there are these other sides of it that do
Speaker 4: have adverse implications, particularly for people of color.
Speaker 2: So we asked Michael, what is the Urban Institute doing
Speaker 2: to help all these folks who are in danger of
Speaker 2: losing their homes.
Speaker 4: We started the Rental Crisis Working Group, where we are
Speaker 4: engaging with advocates and stakeholders on the rental side to
Speaker 4: understand what's going on. And help to formulate policies. The
Speaker 4: second thing is the mortgage market COVID Collaborative, where we
Speaker 4: have been engaging with advocates, both industry and consumer advocates
Speaker 4: to discuss the solutions that need to be had with
Speaker 4: respect to the home ownership market. And that's understanding the
Speaker 4: policies that have already been in place and what those
Speaker 4: things mean for homeowners as well as how the industry
Speaker 4: grapples with those so that we can come up come
Speaker 4: to some kind of consensus solution, that consensus policy solution
Speaker 4: that really helps the home ownership side.
Speaker 1: It's great to know that there are people who are
Speaker 1: working and on the job to try and come up
Speaker 1: with these solutions to help all these people. So what
Speaker 1: should people do if they find themselves in a really
Speaker 1: tough spot and they are at risk of losing their home.
Speaker 4: I think one of the first things as a renter
Speaker 4: that that one should do is find out from your
Speaker 4: property manager whether or not the mortgage for the property
Speaker 4: is owned by one of the agencies, by FHA, or
Speaker 4: by Fannie may or Freddie Mack. If so, for those people,
Speaker 4: that is where the Care is Act actually says that
Speaker 4: a moratory montuvections.
Speaker 2: Michael says, if you've already lost your job, make sure
Speaker 2: you take advantage of unemployment insurance. If there is no
Speaker 2: expanded unemployment insurance, he suggests calling your member of Congress
Speaker 2: and telling them to pass legislation immediately that expands or
Speaker 2: enhances the unemployment insurance available to you.
Speaker 4: Turning over to the to the homeowner side, I think
Speaker 4: that if they are experiencing again any type of unemployment,
Speaker 4: that the they find out how to request forbearance and
Speaker 4: also track to make sure with the credit bureaus that
Speaker 4: the request of forbearance does not impact their credit score.
Speaker 2: Michael says that we can't treat these issues of housing
Speaker 2: like it's one off. This isn't something that's just specific
Speaker 2: to COVID and when it's over, we'll all go back
Speaker 2: to normal. There are real long term consequences if we
Speaker 2: don't handle this in the right way right now.
Speaker 4: The implication is that if we don't deal with this,
Speaker 4: there are real concerns for growing inequality on the other
Speaker 4: side of this. That is, those that have been able
Speaker 4: to keep their jobs through this may be able to
Speaker 4: save in part because now that they're sheltering at home,
Speaker 4: they may be paying higher groceries, but their transportation costs
Speaker 4: are less. Few other costs are less. And what we've
Speaker 4: seen is that savings race has actually jumped up. But
Speaker 4: at the same time, there are the most vulnerable among
Speaker 4: us appear to be most exposed to this crisis, and
Speaker 4: that's just going to widen the gap.
Speaker 2: So some people have been able to work from home
Speaker 2: this whole time and continue to collect a check. They're
Speaker 2: not driving to work, pay lesson gas, they aren't eating
Speaker 2: out as much as they were, so they're saving some there,
Speaker 2: and their savings account it's just growing. But the folks
Speaker 2: that may have lost their jobs or have to work
Speaker 2: on the front lines, they're not adding to their savings.
Speaker 2: This means that the income gap will be wider.
Speaker 4: Think about where the stock market is now, and think
Speaker 4: about where the unemployment rate is now.
Speaker 1: The stock market is doing fantastic, but unemployment is awful.
Speaker 4: And I think that for me is the telling picture.
Speaker 2: I recognize that there was a housing shortage, but I
Speaker 2: don't think I knew it was this bad, and I
Speaker 2: didn't realize how all these things were connected.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this whole thing was super educational for me because
Speaker 1: even just being able to understand what some of these
Speaker 1: words mean and the implications when some of these executive
Speaker 1: orders and things like that come out, so I can
Speaker 1: understand what they're saying. I think that that is priceless.
Speaker 1: And Michael was also able to give us tools or
Speaker 1: tell us step by step what we should be doing
Speaker 1: if we do find ourselves in this situation.
Speaker 2: I walked away from the conversation with Michael even more furious, right,
Speaker 2: more furious that there aren't safety nets in place for folks,
Speaker 2: that people are even in this situation, and that there's
Speaker 2: commentary saying that we should stop the eviction moratorium, or
Speaker 2: we shouldn't continue to expand unemployment insurance or housing assistance houseway,
Speaker 2: how do you not see, no matter where you stand
Speaker 2: in this equation, you're affected exactly. There's just you, and
Speaker 2: there's just an operator between you and the other person,
Speaker 2: whether it's a plus sign, a multiplication sign, like we're
Speaker 2: all in this exactly.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that keeps replaying in my mind
Speaker 1: is that this is nobody's fault, like we are in
Speaker 1: a pandemic, This is not the fault of the renter,
Speaker 1: the homeowner, nobody, and taking away some of these lifelines
Speaker 1: that they were throwing out. Initially, I'm like, Wow, that's
Speaker 1: really crazy because nobody is doing anything wrong. Nobody put
Speaker 1: themselves in this situation like folks are in a really,
Speaker 1: really tough spot. That's it for Lab twenty nine, but
Speaker 1: we have so much more for you to dig into
Speaker 1: on our website, so head over to Dope labspodcast dot com.
Speaker 2: On our website you can find a cheat sheet for
Speaker 2: today's lab, along with a ton of other links and
Speaker 2: resources in the show notes, and if you.
Speaker 1: Want to stay in the know with Dope Labs, don't
Speaker 1: forget to sign up for our newsletter on our site
Speaker 1: too special.
Speaker 2: Thanks to our guest expert Michael Neil. You can learn
Speaker 2: more about his work at the Urban Institute at Urban
Speaker 2: dot org. Also, we love hearing from you. What did
Speaker 2: you think about today's lab? Do you have ideas for
Speaker 2: a few labs? Call us at two zero two five
Speaker 2: six seven seven zero two eight and let us know.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope
Speaker 1: Labs Podcast.
Speaker 2: Tt is on Twitter at dr Underscore t Sho.
Speaker 1: And you can find Zakiya at z said So follow
Speaker 1: us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: Dope Labs is produced by Jenny radalt Mass of Waverrunner Studios.
Speaker 2: Mixing and sound design are by Hannes Brown.
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura,
Speaker 1: with additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey. Dope Labs is
Speaker 1: a production of Spotify and Mega Oh Media Group.
Speaker 2: And it's executive produced by us T. T. Show Dia
Speaker 2: and Zakiah Wattley. Now that we have all that, let's
Speaker 2: take a break.
Speaker 3: Hell, we have all that, Let's take a nap.
Speaker 1: You can pause us right here and come back when
Speaker 1: your brain is ready for what's next. The second wave
Speaker 1: of the Housing crit is sis yes, mm hmm