1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: It on the B n OF podcast. For a lot 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: of us who look at climate and emissions data, I 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: think many of us have a moment where they think, 5 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: how are my actions having an impact on warming? It 6 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: certainly happened for me a few years back, and I 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: tried to go on a carbon diet, if you will. 8 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: I started by looking at movements all around me for 9 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: an inspiration. There were the zero waste folks, the vegans, 10 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: the different shared economy business models, and the second hand options. 11 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: Then were the things that I needed to do to 12 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: upgrade my life, like how I heat and insulate my 13 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: home and looking at my transportation choices. It was a 14 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: long list, and in all honesty, it took me a 15 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: year of incremental changes to evaluate all of these aspects 16 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: and guess what, I am still not personally net zero, 17 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: not without carbon offsets. So where I landed at the 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: end of this year of carbon dieting was that my 19 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: actions were really a little bit less about the individual 20 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: missions gains and more about the consumer markets signals I 21 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: was sending to companies. It was about what I was 22 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: and wasn't buying. My story is not unique, nor is 23 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: it unique to people focused on climate. So today I 24 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: speak with Hugh Bromley, who focuses on consumer trends for 25 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: us at b an EF. He recently wrote a research 26 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: note titled Boycotts Bycotts, Lifestyle Choices and Discursive Acts. Today, 27 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some of this framework and 28 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: the examples of things that people are doing right now 29 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: in regard to these categories. Hughes research really tends to 30 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: focus on surveys and he'll talk of it today about 31 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: what they might be telling us about what people are 32 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: thinking and doing. As a reminder, b any F does 33 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: not provide investment or strategy advice, and we've got a 34 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: full disclaimer at the end of the show. Also, if 35 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: you get to the end of the show and you 36 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: decide you want to read the research that he is 37 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: referring to, it can be found at b NF go 38 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg terminal on BNF dot com, or via 39 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: our mobile app for our subscribers. And now let's speak 40 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: with you. So Hugh, thanks for joining today. Let's start 41 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: a little bit by explaining what it is that you 42 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: focus on researching at b A d F. Because it's 43 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: not our usual technology adoption and looking forward price curve 44 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: sort of situation. What is your primary area focus at 45 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: the moment? I have had a little bit of unusual 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: role at being as you say, where my primary focus 47 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: is producing analysis on consumers. It's not marketing research or 48 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: market research per se. I'm really thinking about consumers as 49 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: a vector for transition and decompanization. So that's you know, 50 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: how to choose to climate change and energy and transport 51 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: technologies and how their behavior is affecting the pace of 52 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: change in the speed of decompanization. This is a topic 53 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: that I'm keenly interested in, but I think you have 54 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: a much bigger theme within this, which is how do 55 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: all those little actions that are leading us closer but 56 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: not personally actually there in many regards to that zero, 57 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: How does that have a potentially larger impact on the 58 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: political and corporate environment that we all exist in. So 59 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: let's start by asking what is a political consumer? Which 60 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: is a deliberate term that you used throughout your research 61 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: on this topic. Political consumer changes over time for each topics, 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: and we think about climate change, it starts off with 63 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: a pretty fringe group of society caring about a topic, 64 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: right at the edge of the social radar climate change 65 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: of different environmental issues. But over time those ideas become 66 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: more mainstream around admissional reduction or around the emissions related 67 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: to big consumption, for example. And as they do, obviously 68 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: the population involved, the populace that cares about this topic grows, 69 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: enters what we call the lifestyle politics of that minority, 70 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: and still it keeps growing and growing, and suddenly there's 71 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: critical mass the political landscape that changes the commercial landscape 72 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: as well, where companies see an opportunity and cater into 73 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: this growing minority soon to be a majority by offering 74 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: new products and services and thinking about their own supply 75 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: chains and how they need to evolve to not be 76 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: called out within there. So you created a bit of 77 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: a framework in which to think about what are the 78 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: different things that political consumers actually can and are doing 79 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: currently and where those might actually exist within the climate 80 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: change space, because that is a specific lens you're looking 81 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: at it. You talk a little bit about that framework 82 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: with us. Political consurism as a concept has existed for 83 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: many decades now, and there's examples of political consumerism dating 84 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: back to British settle in India and different trade disputes 85 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: through the environmental movement of the nineteen fifties sixty seventies. 86 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: The framework has been used for media finishes before, but 87 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: really what we're done here in this piece of research 88 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: is applied to climate change. The four ways that consumers 89 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: can act in response to political matters are defined as 90 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: Boycott's pretty simple. You choose not to consume a product 91 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: or a product group or a brand. They can be 92 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: bi coots, let's be buy cots, and those by coots 93 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: are a little bit different. Sometimes it involves ring fencing 94 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: only buying products that are certified green power or certified 95 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: be Corp, for example, or it could be more broader 96 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: than that, by cots of solar storage or technologies of Tesla. 97 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: Then you've got discursive actions. And this is really not 98 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: so much about what you buy or you don't buy it, 99 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: but it's about how you communicate your consumption choices. It's 100 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: about imposing those beliefs on others, generally by making fun 101 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: of a corporation, a brand, or a politician and there 102 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: in many cases greenwashing. And finally you've got lifestyle choices. 103 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: This lifestyle choice is going to compass everything, but it's 104 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: where you see cobalt to the population avoiding flying, avoiding needs, 105 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: electrifying their homes, or you know, some cases, going off grid. 106 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: So let's stay fit a little bit on the discursive 107 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: actions part, because I think that's one that might be 108 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: very new to us conceptually, or at least you know what. 109 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: I'm not going to speak for other people. It's new 110 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: to me conceptually, but it's something that actually, now that 111 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: you bring it up, it is really obvious that it's 112 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: we're surrounded by it because we live in this increasingly 113 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: technology filled world where we spend an inordinate amount of 114 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: times actually interacting on our phones and looking at different messaging, 115 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: not just advertising, but like different people's agendas on whether 116 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: it be Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or a variety of other 117 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: much hipper apps that I'm sure people younger than we 118 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: actually use. So what is an example of something that 119 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: we might see that like a polluter parodying is one 120 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: of the areas that you looked to our social media movements. 121 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: Would something like a meat free Monday be considered a 122 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: social media movement? I could say that a lot a 123 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: lifestyle action in many cases where you're engaging a certain 124 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: population or community in changing their behavior. When we think 125 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: about discursive actions, we're thinking more about a way of 126 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: picking an antagonist and really reversing the script on them, 127 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: and we see this all around. Actually there's been as 128 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: much discursive actions, I think as there has been greenwashing 129 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: is you know, played climate discussions for years. But you know, 130 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: an example would be if you walk around any of 131 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: the cops cities and the most recently Glasgow billboards posted 132 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: across the city, you know, really pulling out brands like NatWest, 133 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 1: like Shell, like Standard, Jot and Jagua Landerer. So they're 134 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, what's perceived or conveyed to be their greenwashing, 135 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: and they're a false script on the action they're taking 136 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: on climate change. There actually was a Twitter butt on 137 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: International Women's Day when people activated the butt by tagging 138 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: it to a Twitter feed where someone said Happy Women's Day. 139 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: Their gender pay gap number was automatically inserted by the 140 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: Twitter butt. That be considered a discursive action, yeah, I 141 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: would think. So, you know, they're really innovative, they're engaging, 142 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: they're normally comical. They're not going to appeal to everybody. 143 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: They are really just about getting a message out there 144 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: to they already believers. Uh and potentially highlighting a problems 145 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: outbuts so on discursive actions, they're almost always intended to 146 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: send a signal to the company that they're specifically talking about. 147 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: And yes, there is a public sentiment element to it 148 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: where you're trying to rally others, but you're also sending 149 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: a very deliberate message to either consumer or political group. Yeah, 150 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: I think that's right. So clearly the main audience here 151 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: is the climate engaged and the company being targeted, and 152 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: it's the pressure there c suite and executive to make 153 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: it just the change the behavior. As you said before, 154 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: they're monitoring their socials to see how much negative feedback 155 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: there is. If these you know, engaging billboards and tweets 156 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: and marketing campaigns get picked up by mass menia and 157 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: center and viewed by by thousands or hundreds of thousands 158 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: of millions of people, then suddenly that's extremely powerful and 159 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: potentially more powerful in their own brand in many cases 160 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: their own marketing efforts, and there's the expectation that there 161 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: will be a response. It's a distraction to their core 162 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: business and the way of avoiding that is the change. 163 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: Now for a very short break, stay with us. One 164 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: of the things that I read recently was about the 165 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: tagging within social media. So let's say Instagram and negative 166 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: Instagram post, and it was in the tens of thousands, 167 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: not hundreds of thousands, where a negative reaction to something 168 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: actually started to get a response from the marketing team 169 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: essentially at that company, and then would escalate it upward. 170 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: So getting the eyes of a company on their consumers, 171 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: which you know, the most important stakeholders in many respects, 172 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: is actually something that happens more quickly than you might 173 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: think because they're quite sensitive to what it is those 174 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: consumers think about, particularly in the consumer discretionary space, how 175 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: they're tied to that brand. But let's talk a second 176 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: actually about the boycotts and bycotts. So we're thinking boycotts 177 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: are the things we don't buycots are the things we 178 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: do buy, and what sort of market signals those may send. 179 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: But how about lifestyle choices? How would you say lifestyle 180 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: choices differ from these boycotts and bycotts. They generally bit 181 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: more all encompassing. So it's not just about buying a 182 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: certified componutral products. It's about changing your loss job obviously, 183 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: and being inconvenience in order to make your point at 184 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: the slight shaming movements out of Northern Europe is a 185 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: classy example here vegan and vegetarians and where it is 186 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: tied to a driver are examples of lifestyle movements. As 187 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, you could trace this back to far 188 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: more fringe groups, you know, living off grid or in 189 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: isolated communities, living an environmentally friendly lifestyle. So in this 190 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: we have identified the different things that people are and 191 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: can do within within this space in order to influence. 192 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: But my question really is how do we measure it 193 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: and what sorts of things do you look at to 194 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: see whether or not these are significant things to be 195 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: watched by the political and corporate environment. I tend to 196 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: measure things through survey, and surveys are fraud beasts in 197 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: that you know what people say and what people do 198 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: is not always the same thing. Certainly, there's an agel 199 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: saying that the perception is reality. So really, as a 200 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: forward indicator, perception of how people view companies of happy 201 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: with your policies and politicians will shape their reality more 202 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: so than data of what has happened in the past. 203 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: And through that lens we can be a number of 204 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: people who are adopting different technologies for different reasons, for example, 205 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: through survey or the number of people who have positive 206 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: or negative opinions of a politician, of a policy, of 207 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: a corporation, of a corporate action. And it all informs 208 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: a view of can you consume a driver and how 209 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: much activity and behavior might just be economic and rational, 210 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: and how much might be taken to us into account 211 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: some sort of other X factor or disengagement of the 212 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: political discourse. What are some of the more interesting surveys 213 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: that you've looked at as a fleet? I highlight the 214 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: surveys have flagged a couple of problems in the way 215 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: we talk about climate change. Generally speaking, the surveys highlight 216 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: that climate change in the environment are conflated and one 217 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: of the same water pollution is treated the same as 218 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: coal emissions, and therefore the symptoms, causes, and solutions climate 219 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: change are really not abvious to people and their actions 220 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: they're spending. Their actions might be totally misdirected towards what 221 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: they feel activities that will benefit the climate in some way. 222 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: There's certainly willingness or increase willingness to pay for those 223 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: products and solutions. But if you don't know where to 224 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: spend the money or if you're misdone and a way 225 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: to spend the money. We're obviously getting some poor outcomes. 226 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the political part of it. 227 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: The term is political consumer and what we've talked about 228 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: thus far. You brought up politicians, but I'm really seeing 229 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: this is much more sending signals to companies in particular 230 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: again in the consumer and consumer discutionary space. How does 231 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: this influence politicians and how closely are they watching boycotts, 232 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: by cuts, lifestyle choices in terms of how they're not 233 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: just formulating policy, which is really important, but also forming 234 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: their platform for election and re election. To talk about 235 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: companies first and clearly, within political consumerism, the company can 236 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: be the antagonists. It can be That's how I got 237 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: on all Board that he has made a mockery of 238 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: because of their green washing. They can also be the consumer. 239 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: And in the final stage of put consumerism, really, when 240 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: you're going through those fringe groups society into a larger 241 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: minority into the majority, the corporations ultimately change as well 242 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: and pressure their supply chain, and they become the catalyst 243 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: that change. They become the force here. I think political 244 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: consurers is pretty apparent to me. Within my time of 245 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: being effort I have recalcissant governments have followed me around. 246 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: I suppose you know. I started here in Australia shortly 247 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: within a year or so, the Tony Abbott was elected 248 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: Prime Minister and quickly tore up the carbon pricing regime 249 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: that we had in place at the time. I moved 250 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: to the US. Within a year, Donald Trump was elected 251 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: to up a clean power plan and drew from the 252 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: Paris Accord. With each of those advance the immediate local 253 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: reaction was we're moving enormously backwards. There's three or four 254 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: years of backwards stepping on climate change and climate policy 255 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: before there's any hope of change. And actually, what we 256 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: saw in both cases, in Australia and in the US 257 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: some of the most recalcistant administrations were seen in the 258 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: Western world, is that some slack and not all, but 259 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: some slack was taken up by consumers and corporations taking action, 260 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: and cities and organizations and others as well. But they 261 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: took up the slack as a message to those politicians 262 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: that we still care. In Australia, you know, when their 263 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: carbon pricing raising was torn up. We had no carbon 264 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: policy there for a while, we had front page news 265 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: story saying that we had the highest power prices in 266 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: the world. It was attributed by the politicians to carbon pricing, 267 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: but really it's pretty obvious to everybody now that it 268 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: was network spending and a very high exchange right, very 269 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: strong dollar that was leading to those record of power prices. 270 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: But that didn't change the social impression that it was 271 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: the climate policy and the action that was taken by 272 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: many consumers to say, we're still going to invest in 273 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: solar an investment solo, either because we don't like our 274 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: power company for price gauging us or for not taking 275 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: climate action, or we don't like this government again for 276 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: not taking climate action. That wasn't everybody installed solar. It 277 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: was around a fifth percent of customers installed as a 278 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: political message. Around four fifth was economics driven and they admitted. 279 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: So it is a significant minority twenty of the population 280 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: in the US. You have very similar stories when you 281 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: have the kind of the we are still in it 282 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: movement that was started up the Trump announced you would 283 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement, and you've got city states, colleges, churches, 284 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: everyone's saying we will commit to a pathway consistent with 285 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: one and a half degree warning and take action toward it. 286 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: And some of those actions work economic anyway, but many works, 287 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: many were two or three years ahead of the economics 288 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: really making sense on such a pledge, and yet they 289 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: made that decision anyway, and that maintained the political pressure 290 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: such that not all was lost. Now for a very 291 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: short break, stay with us. One of the things I 292 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: think that we see very clearly in our analysis across 293 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: the varied deems that we have at being the efforts 294 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: that there is no one single thing that is the 295 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: most important thing. There is this kind of concept that 296 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: generally you have this archway and each stone is interdependent 297 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: on each other to hold each other up. And I 298 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: know that this is definitely one of those the political 299 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: consumer space as it interrelates then with politics and with companies, 300 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: but specifically as we head now into what is a progressed, 301 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: high inflation environment, and some of these technologies, as you're 302 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: pointing out, technologies are actually products that are considered to 303 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: be greener, cleaner. Adoption may slow down as people have 304 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: less discretionary income to spend on these things or spare 305 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: income to spend on kind of things that are more expensive. 306 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: How important is the political consumer space in driving change 307 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: because you referenced that at some point it picked up 308 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: the lap when you know the politics backed away from 309 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: looking at this in certain geographies. Will we be able 310 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: to have the same progress on reaching certain climate goals 311 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: if this ends up becoming a decrease in element of 312 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: I guess the change nexus that we're looking at inflation 313 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: is a good place to start. Actually, it was obviously 314 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: contemporary topics, and I think it will drive change. When 315 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: people drive past and see fuel prices they haven't seen ever, 316 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: or haven't seen in at least ten years, they're going 317 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: to make decisions. Very few, I would argue, we're going 318 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: to do the calculation of workout whether an e V 319 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: makes sense of its day. But enough will be outraged 320 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: at the fact that politicians are still levying fuel exercises 321 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: on them whilst petrol prices are so high, or outraged 322 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: that fuel companies are a price gouging them, you know, 323 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: oblivious to the greater macro picture, and they'll make a 324 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: decision to purchase electric vehicle regardless. Now that might not 325 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: be driven by climate, maybe it will be a factor. 326 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure there is political consumerism going on right now 327 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: around inflation and particularly energy inflation with climate benefit. That's 328 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: a really good point because I'm thinking about the high 329 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: gas prices at the moment, and then this whole discussion 330 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: around heat pumps and how difficult in some geographies they 331 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: can be to install. And actually I know a few 332 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: people who are essentially pushing extra hard through that paper 333 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: were given the current economic and political crimeate around what 334 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: is you know, fraught pipelines of natural gas from eastern 335 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: to to western Europe. I was thinking about it as 336 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: people probably would spend less on greener things. But you 337 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: raise a really good point. A may spur additional action 338 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: in other areas. They need to be able to afford it, 339 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: so certainly, so that's that point is not lost. But 340 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 1: given the capability to afford to make that decision, and 341 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about you know, fringe to to to larger 342 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: minorities of the population here, action will not always be 343 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: driven by economics. That we've driven by a political statement 344 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: or a statement to corporations that the status quo isn't 345 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: working and change needs to happen. So you've got a 346 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: couple of case studies in here that I think are 347 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: worth highlighting. So maybe we could go into those in 348 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 1: some detail. But let's talk about California households and the 349 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: bi cuts of pv SO photovoltaic home solar and backup 350 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: batteries and some regards which I know have become useful 351 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: as a alternative of two backup generators. There have been 352 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: some power outages that have continued over the last few 353 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: years in California, specifically due to things like buyers and winds. 354 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: What has happened in California that that's a sophisticated by 355 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: cut market, is it not? I think it is. I 356 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: think it is of multiple technologies. But you know, the 357 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: conflation of different events around, you know, around the period 358 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: was really interesting California because clearly you had solar already economic, 359 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: and for most consumers you had storages really being pushed 360 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: and new intenses in place, so economic drivers improving. But 361 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: beyond that, the political landscape had just changed. Trump is 362 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: in his second year in office and in becoming he's 363 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: announced he's going to withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement, 364 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: and meanwhile California face its most destructive wildfire season ever 365 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: forty seven lives or lost. Ten thousand buildings or more 366 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: were destroyed, and there was a bit of a movement there. 367 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: You know, there was a strong uptake in all the 368 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: storage to go after those fires. Plus some other liabilities 369 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: incurred by the local power company, Pacific Gas and Electric, 370 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: ultimately led to their bankruptcy. So suddenly you have these 371 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: two antagonists. You're PG and E, and you had a 372 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: federal government who was moving backward on climate change, and 373 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: meanwhile you're facing what you see as the most destructive 374 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: and cataclysmic climate events in history. It was only a 375 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: year later there were more wildfires and more damage than 376 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: the political response was to the Trump criticized the California 377 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: authorities for not breaking the forest. So when there's that 378 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: sort of political discourse, there is going to be a 379 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: consumer action. It helped that the economics were great, of 380 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: course it did, but you saw these other nudges. And 381 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: in consumer behavioral science we always talk about nudges, and 382 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: the political nudge here was actually to do nothing or 383 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: to pretend it wasn't a problem. And that was enough 384 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: of a nudge for the engage and the educator to 385 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: make a decision to adopt technology. Then let's talk also 386 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: about another case study that you referenced a little earlier 387 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: regarding in the Nordics flake shaming, and some airlines have 388 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: seen it as a threat, other airlines have actually taken 389 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: it head on. So KLM lunch this Fly Responsibly campaign 390 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: that actually addresses and embraces a little bit this flight 391 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: shaming mentality that's going on at the moment. What sort 392 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,239 Speaker 1: of changes have the surveys that you looked at, how 393 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: people responded to this, and is this pressure or potentially 394 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: virtue signaling, is it working and is it changing people's patterns. 395 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: Flight shaming or at least flight avoidance is larger than 396 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: people expect. And the flight shaping movement was a very 397 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: Northern European movement at first, a little bit elitist. It 398 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: was a bunch of local celebrities talking about their boycott 399 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: of plane and travel because of emissions. It's spread across 400 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: Western Europe. But really we're seeing science that all around 401 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: the world now. For example, in the UK, the majority 402 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: of Britons now say they have already or likely to 403 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: avoid traveling by plane on holidays. You see even similar 404 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: numbers in China, smaller numbers in Japan, but an awareness 405 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: that's short distance flying short distaviation its emissions and can 406 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: be avoided. Follows through is more difficult to measure, especially 407 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: during the last two or three years when the wiped out, 408 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: So it's a bit too early to know, but this 409 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: was very much on the forefront of airlines minds and 410 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: dialogues going in COVID. You mentioned KOM that fly responsibily 411 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: campaign is particularly interesting because they're basically asking travelers to 412 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: consider not flying at all, are using something else. Most 413 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: other airlines really just present your carbon offset options or 414 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, flying carbon neutral options. They're not trying to 415 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: turn away your business. Across Europe we see a under 416 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: of organizations banning short distance flights to their employees. Lots 417 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: of universities, the BBC Greater London Authority all banned employees 418 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: from traveling. We see Deloitte, for example, making a major 419 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: investment in light Year, likely as a company out of 420 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: the Netherlands that makes solar powered cars, which will be 421 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: one of the first customers of to move their employees 422 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: across continental Europe seeking out alternatives because again, you know, 423 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: corporations are kind the final movie here. They think about 424 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: their supply chain, they think about where criticism is going 425 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: to come from in the future, and they're taking action. 426 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: He referenced Curbon offsets and then said, you know, playing 427 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: Curbon neutral on that. But we have a whole another 428 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: episode with Kyle Harrison about the offset space and how 429 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: incredibly fraught the additionality of those offsets can be. But 430 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to digress too much there. Let's go 431 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: into one final example while we're on the show today 432 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: about resilian products and how that may have an impact 433 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: on the Amazon rainforest. And you know what people are 434 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: actually doing and how they're tying specific products to that 435 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: geographic space and that ecosystem. This is a really fascinating example. 436 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: And as a current example, right before I mentioned Australia, 437 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: I mentioned the US and California. With that political dynamics 438 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: passed in many cases, in most cases in Brazil is 439 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: still very much happening. And you've got a President Bosonara 440 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: there who has been skeptical and critical of climate action 441 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: since his in operation, and you know, not a lot 442 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: of pressure, not a lot of accountability from the Brazilian people. 443 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: One because it's very difficult to take action against what 444 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: is really in many cases illegal operations clearing the Amazon 445 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: add Secondly, because you know protests is fraught with danger essentially, 446 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: so what instead you see is that the supplier channel. 447 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: Did you see corporations taking action for their customers and 448 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: their constituents on the opposite side of the world. An 449 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: example here would be a group of supermarkets around the world. 450 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: It included you know, Audi and Astor and test Go 451 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: and woar Wars from Australia pressuring their concern to the 452 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: Brazilian government around a proposal that they say would lead 453 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: to further deforestation, and they basically threatened to stop buying 454 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: all products that were tied to the Brazilian agricultural supply chains, 455 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: enormous impacts further upstream obviously if they were to do so, 456 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: they're advocating basically on their behalf customers in Europe and 457 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: Australia and elsewhere, to say, our consumers won't stand for this, 458 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: even if your consumers in Brazil havevent or can't take action. 459 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: We've seen it from European banks decided to divest from 460 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: meat producers or tied deforestation in Brazil and really distributed 461 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: action on the other side of the world forcing some 462 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: level of change in Brazil. So here This brings me 463 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: to a point regarding who and specifically where are these 464 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: political consumers really prevalent. And this is going to vary 465 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: geography to geography, probably for a variety of reasons, including 466 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: culture and discretionary income. But where are we seeing high 467 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: percentages of individuals within some of these surveys that you 468 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: looked at that are willing and interested in engaging in 469 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: being a political consumer. So one thing I've looked at 470 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: here is to compare the willingness of people to pay 471 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: more for products that are good for environment. Again, they 472 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: can plate environment and climate and their intention to actually 473 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: buy more sustainable products, and what we see is a 474 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: bit of a mismatched there so many countries, many affluent 475 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: countries Germany, US, UK, Australia, consumers say they are willing 476 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: to pay more for products they can afford it. They're 477 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: willing to pay more for products that they see good 478 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: for the environment. But it's much more vary when it 479 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: comes to intention, it's universally lower. Fewer people will intend 480 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: to buy more sustainable products than are willing to say 481 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: to pay more for them. In some cases that stuck. 482 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: So in Australia, for example, half the population says they're 483 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: willing to pay more, but only about a third intends 484 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: to buy more. So they were the wealthy countries you're 485 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: talking about, But that's not always the class. Clearly, there's 486 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: plenty of countries where consumers just don't have the income, 487 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: the ability and the financial stability to make these to 488 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: make altruistic choices whatsoever. And in others it really comes 489 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: down to the ability to be an activist. And for 490 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: example in India, which you could well be paid to 491 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: the prior of the last cop given they aid the 492 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: discussions go on for the last two days. Climate activism 493 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: is really not part of the social discourse, so potentially 494 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: not even out of the political thinking and priorities and 495 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: in addressing climate change. So if you there are certain 496 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: supply chains and certain parts of the supply chain which 497 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: are invariably going to be more responsive to in consumers 498 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: like people like you and I than others. In what 499 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: areas is the consumer voice a really important and critical 500 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: part of moving towards a decarbonized future? And what areas 501 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 1: where really is going to come down to politics and 502 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: the companies themselves looking at things differently, In consumers maybe 503 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: don't have as much of an influence, and I think 504 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: it is a second question into that personally, where should 505 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: I spend my time? It's an awesome question. I'll like 506 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: to think that consumers can do three things. They cannoither 507 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: buy something, change the product produces lower emissions. They can 508 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: change their behavior and not necessarily need to buy anything. 509 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: Or they can stop consuming and that will almost certainly 510 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: lower emissions in a great way, and not the other 511 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: two options. Failing that, you need the supply Chaine decarbonize 512 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: that supplies consumers. And remember you know you could tie 513 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: back two thirds or three quarters of emissions can be 514 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: tied back to household consumption. At the end of the day, 515 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: we are generally producing something for someone who needs to 516 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: produce something for household. So when you think about the 517 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: sectors that are really reliant on consumer action, road transport 518 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: or passenger transport is extremely reliant on consumer action. We 519 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: are then he consumers to biolect vehicles and replace their 520 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: I C s or to forego driving, or to move 521 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: from vehicles into public transit, microbit mobility and pedestrian alternatives. 522 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: Without that, without consumers changing behavior or products, there will 523 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: be no decobanization in road transport riding off bio fuels 524 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: and other options that the supply chain could do. But 525 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: when you think about something like aviation, consumers have no alternative. 526 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: They can stop flying potentially if it's a shortcoll flight 527 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: and there's alternatives available, but that's going to be a 528 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: fairly minority of people. Look in dense markets like where 529 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: you're sitting in London, it's going to be nobody where 530 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in Australia. And so really that we're totally 531 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: reliant on the airline supply chain, the aviation supply chain 532 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: to build lighter aircra after, create lower emission, lower fuel 533 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: consumption planes and invest in alternatives, invest in hydrogen or 534 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: electric or whatever the alternatives might be. Because consumers won't 535 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: have that don't have that ability. And then you know, 536 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: when across the power sector kind of you need both. 537 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: Consumers need to be buying the electric appliances such that 538 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: the decarbonized electricity system can provide them with clean power. 539 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: If you don't get both of those things, you still 540 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: have emissions stemming from heat from cooking, from from other 541 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: oil gas and solid fuel us. So consumers are a 542 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: massive vector of change. They're needed. Really, the question here 543 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: is around how do they engage with politicians, how to 544 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: politicians engage with them support that transition. When you look 545 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 1: at the emissions in your home, that the bulk are 546 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: coming from, heat aviation is a big factor as well. 547 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: So you need to decide whether there is a product 548 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: substitution that will allow you to go about your lifestyle 549 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: or whether you're willing to be inconvenienced or abstained from consumption. 550 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: And at the moment that comes down to an economic 551 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: versus a lifestyle decision, but in the future doesn't necessarily 552 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: have to be because gosh, I think all roads lead 553 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: to heat in so many respects, both in the residential 554 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: and in the industry heat space. So hopefully my friend 555 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: who is looking at that heat pump will help bring 556 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: prices down in increased skilled labor to actually look at 557 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: heat pumps to build a potentially more sustainable home environment 558 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: for all of us in the future, uh and bring 559 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: those costs down of that technology in the meantime, Thank 560 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: you Hugh for keeping an eye on different consumer behaviors. 561 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: We look forward to speaking with you again sometime soon 562 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: regarding what the surveys are telling us around consumer adoption. Thanks, 563 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Today's episode of Switched On was edited 564 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: by Rex Warner of gray Stoke Media and produced by 565 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: Ava Marina Gonzalez Isla at b F. Bloomberg an A 566 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. 567 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, 568 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: as investment advice, investment recommendations, or recommendation as to an 569 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: investment or other strategy. Bloomberg anya app should not be 570 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: considered his information and sufficient upon which to base an 571 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: investment decision. 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