1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: The Gibson Guitar Plant in Nashville is not much to 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: look at. It's a one story brick building seven miles 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: east of downtown, wedged between a bend in the road 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: and a few parking lots. But this is where music 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: history is literally made. Bb King, Joan Jett, Eric Clapton, 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 2: Keith Richards, Sister Rosetta Tharp, Eddie van Halen, and Muddy Waters, 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: even Sheryl Crowe. Gibson is the guitar choice of legends. 9 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: That magic is what attracted Bill Gibbs to take a 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: job there. 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 3: Imagine growing up being a kid who played guitar all 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: your life, and now you get to work at the 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: candy store where all the goodies are made. 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: It was a dream job, at least at first. Gibbons 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: admits the work wore him down. The demands were high, 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: the hours long. And then on November seventeenth, two thousand and. 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 3: Nine, I was on a lunch break. One of my 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: Gibson friends from the plant texted me and said, dude, 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: we're being raided. 20 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: Dozens of armed officers, federal marshals, and special agents with 21 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: the US Fish and Wildlife Service storm the floor. They 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: tell everybody to stop working and begin rummaging through the shop. 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: Agents tear through containers, boxes and palaces. They rifle through 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: papers and filing cabins, and then they crack open four 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,919 Speaker 2: green tubs holding planks of wood, deep black in color. 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: Bingo, my friend that text me back. Apparently it's about 27 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 3: illegal wood. 28 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: The wooden question is called Diospyros pararii, but most people 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: know it as ebony. It's from Madagascar. It's dense, rare, 30 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: and perfect for making high end guitars. Givens and the 31 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: team are confused. Ebeny is precious, sure, but it's also 32 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: been used on guitars for decades. Like, what's the deal. 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 3: They're like, ah, you know, it's probably nothing. You know, 34 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 3: might have been a mistake or whatever. 35 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: The government confiscates all the wood, and eventually Givens would 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: go back to work and forget all about it until 37 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: two years later, August twenty eleven, and it happens again. 38 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 3: It was one of those days where we knew it 39 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 3: was going to be a long night. I think we 40 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: were all exhausted and they came in. We heard we're 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: being rated. We're being rated. Everyone to the back and 42 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: they all gathered us all into like the lumberyard area. 43 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: Thirty federal officers entered the guitar factory. Many of them aren't. 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: Apparently there were ar fifteens. It was never like a 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: threatening or scary environment at all. It was just like, okay, well, 46 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 3: let's let them in. 47 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: The Feds turn the place upside down. All in all, 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: they seize an estimated half a million dollars worth of 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: Dalbergia sissu, a rosewood from India. 50 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: And it was just like, oh God, here we go again. 51 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: I'm Summer rain Oaks from School of Humans and iHeart podcasts. 52 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: This is bad seeds. Okay, do you want to say 53 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: something dad? 54 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 4: Hello? Yeah? 55 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: Okay, that's working perfect, all right? So you brought over 56 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: your black less Paul. This has been yours for how long? 57 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: When did you get this? 58 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 5: I boked this in nineteen seventy three? 59 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: And why did you buy it? What was the allure? 60 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 5: The allure was a friend of mine was in a 61 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 5: band and he had a black less Paul custom. I said, 62 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 5: if you ever want to sell it, let me know. 63 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 5: So he said, yeah, I'll sell it to you. I 64 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 5: played it in garage bands when I was up and coming, and. 65 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 3: I mean it is black. It's black as night. 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 2: I mean, is this like a like? Is this ebony 67 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: or like? 68 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 3: What kind of Is it a hardwood? 69 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 5: It's got an ebony fretboard. 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: Gibson guitars are frankly part of my family, especially they're 71 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: less Pall models, which is considered one of the finest 72 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,559 Speaker 2: guitars ever made. I remember seeing it around the house, 73 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: hearing my dad play it a bit, but I never 74 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 2: really thought much about the black wood it was made 75 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: of or where it came from. At Gibson Gene Knicks 76 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: had to think about those questions. In June of two 77 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, he boarded a flight for Madagascar, and 78 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 2: for the next two and a half weeks, he and 79 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: two other major guitar makers explored the country as part 80 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: of a fact finding mission, learning if it was still 81 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: possible to legally harvest Diospiro's Parade Madagascar ebony. After the trip, 82 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: Nix discussed the challenges in an email with his colleagues. 83 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 6: The true ebony species preferred by Gibson Musical instruments is 84 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 6: found only in Madagascar. This is a slow growing tree 85 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 6: species with very little conservation protection and supplies are considered 86 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 6: to be highly threatened in its native environment due to overexploitation. 87 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: High end musical instrument manufacturers you should know, are picky 88 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: about their wood, and for good reason. Every tree has 89 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: a different density that affects the quality of an instrument's sound, 90 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: and certain woods are better than others. Alan Schwartz is 91 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: a good friend of mine and he's supplied wood for instruments, 92 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: and it's a tough job. 93 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 4: I have for a while supplied African blackwood, which has 94 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 4: been used to make woodwend instruments because it's extreme stability 95 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 4: and the fact that I don't know if you've ever 96 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 4: played a woodwind instrument, I mean they get really disgusting 97 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 4: in guy and messy and full of spitz and mucus 98 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 4: and god knows what else when you play it. It 99 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 4: has to be a material that does not change with moisture, 100 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 4: because otherwise the notes will change. 101 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: Each instrument is different. High end clarinets sound best made 102 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: from woods like grenadilla from Eritrea, ukuleles from the Flowering 103 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: Poetry of Hawaii, and piano soundboards spruce, and the more 104 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: high end and instrument, the pickier a manufacturer is. Take pianos, 105 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: American maid steinways only use Sitka spruce from British Columbia. 106 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 2: The Austrian brand Buzendorferm only uses Austrian spruce grown at 107 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: a very specific elevation, and Betzioli in Italy only uses 108 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 2: spruce from the Fima Valley of northern Italy, the same 109 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: forest that produced the world famous Strata Varius violins. Problem 110 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: is what's good for the instrument isn't always good for 111 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: the tree, like the African blackwood. Alan once supplied. 112 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 4: African blackwood, which grows in all of Dry Africa and 113 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 4: even up the Rift Valley as far north as Armenia 114 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 4: as a plant, was used in Biblical times for woodwind instruments, 115 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 4: but it has become successively rarer. 116 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 2: As one's gone along, a lot of musical woods are 117 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: becoming exceedingly rare, and it's putting manufacturers in a bind. 118 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: In the violin world, the best bows are made from 119 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: Brazilian pernambuco aka pow Brasilia echinata, but today the tree 120 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: is endangered. Guitar makers face the same problem making fingerboards. 121 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: Diospiro's Paraii or Madagascar ebony, is one of the woods 122 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: of choice. It's dense and handsome, deep black in color, 123 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: but it's slow to grow and difficult to replace, and 124 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: now it's illegal to harvest unless an act of God, 125 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: such as a storm, causes the tree to fall. In fact, 126 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: according to side the International Treaty Guiding the Trade of 127 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: Plants and Animals, quote, nearly all of the large diospirros 128 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: parie trees have disappeared from western Madagascar. 129 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 4: When you watch the movies of Madagascar, you really have 130 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 4: this expectation of a tremendously feaken place, and when you 131 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 4: get there it is definitely not that. It really just 132 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 4: doesn't have any of that biodversity left. 133 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: In two thousand and eight, Gibson execs landed in Madagascar 134 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 2: in hopes of finding some of that lost biodiversity. When 135 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: they returned, they came home with news of a miracle. 136 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: A local ebony supplier had all the right paperwork. All 137 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: of the boxes were checked with notorizations and signatures from 138 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: all the proper government officials. When Gibson began exporting the 139 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: ebony to custom officials in Africa and Europe gave shipments 140 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: a thumbs up. But when it got to the Gibson warehouse, 141 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: well you know the rest of the story. The Feds 142 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: pounced and Gibson CEO Henry Juskowitz was livid. 143 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 7: At first. I thought it was a joke because we 144 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 7: make guitars and I'm not aware of any threatening issues 145 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 7: with the guitar business. 146 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: Bill Gibbons remembers the company blasting the government for overreach. 147 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 3: They got their media team together because I think they 148 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 3: knew they were going to be under the radar, and 149 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: they put together this short film talking about the government 150 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: coming after them. 151 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: In a letter to the court, the company's lawyers argued 152 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: that the wood was perfectly legal, and they had the 153 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: paperwork to prove it. 154 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 8: This is not a case of inaction by the Maticascer government, 155 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 8: nor is it a case where ebony wood was cut 156 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 8: and shipped under cover of darkness without the knowledge of 157 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 8: Madagascar officials. 158 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: With this statement, the Gibson legal team was alluding to 159 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: a very real problem in the United States and the 160 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: Gifford Pinchot National Forest in Washington State, a ring of 161 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: wood thieves stole about eight hundred thousand dollars worth of 162 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: protected timber, and they were trafficking it to musical instrument manufacturers, 163 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: including PRS Guitars, an American company that makes guitars for 164 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: musicians like Carlos Santana. Gibson's lawyers were adamant, hey, we're 165 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: not doing that. They were sourcing wood from a German 166 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: supplier with a century's worth of experience. The wood was 167 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 2: certified by NGOs like the Rainforest Alliance and the Forest 168 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: Stewardship Council. But was this seizure really a miscarriage of 169 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: justice or did the government know something we don't. The 170 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: raid at Gibson happened because of a one hundred and 171 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: twenty two year old law, one that originally had nothing 172 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: to do with guitars or wood, or, for that matter, 173 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 2: plants at all. The law was originally about feathers. It's 174 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: the late nineteenth century, and if you're a Manhattan socialite 175 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: looking to turn heads, then you've got to wear a hat, 176 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 2: be dazzled in flowers, jewels and ribbons. But if you 177 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: really want to impress, you got to have bird feathers. 178 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: Feather hats are all the rage at some department stores. 179 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: They sell for more than three thousand dollars in today's money. 180 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: In fact, the feather fashion industry employs some eighty thousand people. 181 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: Folks living in wetlands from Massachusetts to Florida are happy 182 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 2: to meet the demand too, with bird feathers selling for 183 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: more than fifteen dollars an ounce. They slaughter approximately five 184 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: million birds a year, but not everybody is happy about this. 185 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: By the late eighteen hundreds, Americans have watched beavers and 186 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: bison nearly disappear. Birds are next. The newly founded Audubon 187 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: Society begins pleading with the government do something. Audubon finds 188 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: a sympathetic ear in Congressman John F. Lacey, a conservationist. 189 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: Lacey authors a bill making it a federal crime to 190 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: transport wildlife from one state to another. The new Lacy 191 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: Act has an immediate impact. It becomes illegal to kill 192 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: birds in Florida and sell the feathers in New York. 193 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: It effectively kills the trend and saves many birds from extinction. 194 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: Over the century, the Lacy Act would balloon. By two 195 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, it would expand to protect plants and trees, 196 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: and its enforcement powers are wide because if you or 197 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: your supplier commit a wildlife crime outside the country, the 198 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: US still has the authority to enforce the law. When 199 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: Feds raided Gibson, they pointed to the Lacy Act. Somewhere 200 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: along the supply chain. They claimed there was wrongdoing. Gibson 201 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 2: CEO did not like that explanation. 202 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 7: We have affid davids from government officials in Madagascar that 203 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 7: say that it's perfectly legal to do what we did. 204 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: The issue became a cause celeb among the political right, 205 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 2: even making its way into the halls of Congress. 206 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: Last month, agents rated the Gibson Guitar factory in Tennessee. 207 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: Why because Gibson bought wood overseas to make guitars in 208 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 1: America And. 209 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 6: There's no Grizzly Bears in downtown Nashville or in Gibson 210 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 6: Guitar that we need to be concerned with. 211 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: But inside Gibson, people like Gibbons were starting to wonder. 212 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: I figured maybe there was nothing to see here. I 213 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 3: don't know what this is the second rate I'm aware of. 214 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 3: At this point, I'm thinking something's going on. 215 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: None of this makes sense, Neither did the paper trail. 216 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: Court filings show that Gibson ordered the wood through a 217 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: company in Hamburg, Germany. The Germans had purchased the ebony 218 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: from an exporter in Madagascar, a guy named Roger Tuna. 219 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: The wood was sign at Tunam's mill, placed on a 220 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: vessel from Portavuima and stowed on a ship called the 221 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: Liverpool Express, which traveled from Hamburg to New York to Charleston, 222 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: South Carolina. In court documents, Gibson's lawyers argued the paperwork 223 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: proved there was no violation of the Laciact. 224 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 8: Neither the import from madagasc Or into Germany nor the 225 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 8: subsequent export from Germany to the USA were objected by 226 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 8: the German or European community authorities. 227 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,239 Speaker 2: Lawyers for the wood supplier in Germany were even more forceful. 228 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 9: My client protests with all emphasis against the allegations said 229 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 9: he as a member or supporter of a worldwide Lumba mafia, 230 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 9: said unlawfully exploits topic rainforests. 231 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: But all the paperwork in the world and all these 232 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: claims of innocence didn't wipe away the fact that something 233 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: was fishy, because Roger Tuna, the man running the mill 234 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: in Madagascar, was not who he was made out to be, 235 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: and it would take a retired marine working under cover 236 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: to unmask him. 237 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 10: My name is Alexander von Bismarck, and I'm the executive 238 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 10: director of the Environmental Investigation Agency the problem is that 239 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 10: when you buy the furniture or something, it's really hard 240 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 10: to know what criminality is at the beginning, and who 241 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 10: knew in the middle right of the chain. 242 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 11: The person selling to you can say I had no idea. 243 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 11: Everybody told me this was fine. 244 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: But von Bismarck's a smart guy. He's a Harvard grad 245 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: and an expert on wildlife poaching. He's heard these excuses before, 246 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: and for. 247 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 11: That reason particularly, we tend to go undercovered. 248 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine, Alexander von Bismarck assumes a 249 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: new identity. He sets up a fake timber company with 250 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: a phony website and fake business cards. He flies south 251 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: to Madagascar and weasels his way into the country's timber mafia, 252 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: claiming he's a businessman on the hunt for a legal rosewood. 253 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 11: When you're having open business to business conversations, the truth 254 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 11: reveals itself pretty quickly. 255 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: Von Bismarck comes to the timber barons armed with questions, how. 256 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 11: Do you do this, how much does the wood cost, 257 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 11: how many bribes do you have to pay, who do 258 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 11: you have to pay? How do you get it out? 259 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 11: Even though there's a zero export quota. 260 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: In fact, those conversations lead him right into the office 261 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: of Roger Tuna. The timber baron has no clue that 262 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: his guest is carrying hidden cameras and a GPS. Tunam 263 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: shows him around the lumberyard and discussions quickly turn to 264 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: how Tunam sources his trees. They're not being felled by 265 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: acts of God, They're being deliberately and illegally chopped down 266 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: from a national For von Bismarck, this confession isn't enough. 267 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: He asks to see the product for himself. Tunam agrees, 268 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: and a logger leads von Bismarck deep into the nationally 269 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: protected forest. He sees the stumps with his own eyes. 270 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: He tags locations with the GPS. His guides even show 271 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: him the towering trees that are quite literally on the 272 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: chopping block. When they take von Bismarck down to a 273 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: nearby river, he floats past two hundred boats hauling the 274 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 2: trunks of illegally logged trees, and then he visits Tunam's mill. 275 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 2: There are saw blades screaming with stacks of ebony piled 276 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: four hundred yards deep. At one point, he asks his 277 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: guides about a stack of dark planks. They speak nonchalantly. 278 00:17:55,359 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: How that would it's being cut for guitars. I can't 279 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: say it's the same as going under cover, but I 280 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 2: remember having a similar experience. I was lucky enough to 281 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: visit Madagascar ten years ago, and I remember we were 282 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: walking this large field with our guide and I kept 283 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: seeing these ferns growing and I thought, this is weird. 284 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: Ferns don't grow in fields. Ferns grow in and around forests. 285 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: And when I spotted this chameleon, this poor chameleon, and 286 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 2: I thought, again, you'd expect it to be living in 287 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 2: a bunch of trees. And then we started seeing the 288 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: stumps and I realized this is the forest or it was. 289 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: It's gutting, and not only does it hurt the forest, 290 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 2: it hurts the people who live around it. My friend Alan, 291 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: the guy who sourced wood for instruments, he was there 292 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: with me, and he recalls seeing people carving a plain 293 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 2: white wood and then treating it with something. 294 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 4: What they were doing is taking a mix of red 295 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 4: and black shoe polish to kind of give. 296 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: It a with the most beautiful woods destroyed. People recovering 297 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: plain woods with shoe polish to pass them off as ebony. 298 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: Allan who does most of his work in Mozambique, has 299 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: seen the effects of this indiscriminate cutting firsthand. 300 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 4: The number of timber exporters has diminished dramatically. The government 301 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 4: claims that it is clamped down and it has reduced 302 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 4: the log exports, but it's not reduced because the government 303 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 4: did anything, because they did nothing. It's reduced because there 304 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: isn't anything left to sell. 305 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: Madagascar has technically tried to avoid this same fate. It's 306 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 2: passed laws to keep lumber collection sustainable. In two thousand, 307 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: the government made it illegal to explore unfinished wood products 308 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: from the country. This included the sawed down wood Gibson 309 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: was received, and in two thousand and six they banned 310 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: the cutting and extra action of any type of rosewood 311 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: or ebony. Then in two thousand and nine they made 312 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: a list of just thirteen people who were licensed to 313 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 2: export rosewood and ebony. Roger Tunam was not on that list. 314 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 2: Gibson's ebony collection violated all of those laws, and it 315 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 2: was very likely coming from a national protected park. Faced 316 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 2: with this information, Gibson's lawyers appear to have moved the goalposts. 317 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 8: If the wood had been illegal, or if Tunam did 318 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 8: not have government authorization to export the wood, then one 319 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 8: of the many Malagasy officials involved in the process would 320 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 8: have prevented the shipments from leaving the country. 321 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: If the wood was so illegal, then how did Tunam 322 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: get these shipments rubber stamped by the government? How did 323 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: he sneak it past NGOs like the Rainforest Alliance. Alexander 324 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: von Bismarck has an answer to that. 325 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 11: The corruption was so high level that paperwork could be 326 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 11: really seem pristine enough to get through even neighboring countries 327 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 11: that are supposed to not allow that trade. 328 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: In fact, it was good enough to fool the Forest 329 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: Stewardship Council or FSC if you don't. 330 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 11: Know exactly where it's from. Unfortunately, even a sticker like 331 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 11: FSC is not a guarantee these days at all. 332 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: That's because at the time FC didn't verify or control 333 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: the legitimacy of a wood harvest. It based its ratings 334 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: on risk assessments, and apparently the risks were higher than 335 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 2: they had imagined. In a country where the majority of 336 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: the nation lives on a dollar a day and the 337 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: rule of law is weak, bribes go far. Here's what 338 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: one malagassy official told the Environmental Investigation. 339 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 12: Agency Rumorzebat ve carription of our agents circulate where involvement 340 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 12: would consist of closing their eyes when vice surprise lagers 341 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 12: in the park in exchange for a c amount. 342 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: In fact, not long before von Bismarck had made his 343 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: undercover visit, the district head of environment and Forests, the 344 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: person with the power to issue and collect permits, was 345 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 2: arrested and Roger tunam while it was an open secret 346 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 2: that he was a timber bearer. In the words of 347 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 2: one local. 348 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 12: Official, Tuna mis not a business man, He's a traffica. 349 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: The question is did Gibson know this and if they did, 350 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: when did they know it. Here are the facts. The 351 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 2: man supplying Gibson with the goods was a known documented poacher. 352 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: The wood was extracted illegally, it was exported illegally with 353 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: phony paperwork, and since Gibson was in possession of illegal timber, 354 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: the Leasy Act gave the federal government a right to 355 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: seize it. But Gibson's management still cried foul. After all, 356 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: it wasn't their fault. They were just trusting their supplier 357 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: in Germany. They were trusting the certifications from prominent NGOs. 358 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: This sounds fair at first, blush, but Alan doesn't have 359 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 2: much sympathy. 360 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 4: You look at the guys who relied on a certifier 361 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 4: to say that they would was fine a third party, 362 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 4: and they bought timber from Madagascar, and they got into 363 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 4: terrible trouble because even though it was certified, when somebody 364 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 4: actually looked at it closely, it may have had a certificate, 365 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 4: but it was actually illegal. And that was Gibson. They're 366 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 4: gone in a terrible trouble, and they deserve to get 367 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 4: into trouble because they bought stuff which they didn't actually 368 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: check properly, and they relied on some bloody tick box 369 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 4: to tell them that it was okay. 370 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: In court documents, Fed suggests that Gibson could file a 371 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: civil lawsuit if they had unknowingly bought corrupted wood, then 372 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: that made them victims of fraud, but Gibson never sued. 373 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: The reason why is anybody's guess. But according to court documents, 374 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 2: Gibson's top brass allegedly knew about Roger Tunam because remember 375 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: Gene Nix, the Gibson employee who visited Madagascar in two 376 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 2: thousand and eight in search of a solid legal source 377 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 2: of ebony, he had visited Tunam's lumberyard. In an email, 378 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: he wrote that Tunam's supply was under seizure from the 379 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: Madagascar government. 380 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 6: It's under temporary seizure. It cannot be moved, substantial stored 381 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 6: quantities of cut items for export, including blanks for various instruments, 382 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 6: mostly ebony. 383 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: In another email, Nis openly told his colleagues that at 384 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: the time exporting wood was banned. 385 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 6: All legal timber and wood exports are prohibited because of 386 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 6: widespread corruption and theft of valuable woods like rosewood in ebony. 387 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: In other words, Gibson's own man on the ground notified 388 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 2: leadership of the risks. The following year, an email received 389 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: by eleven top people at the company contained an attachment 390 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 2: showing that only one person had any legal right to 391 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: export Madagascar ebony. That person was not Roger Tunam. In fact, 392 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: a government affidavit shows that quote all the legal ebony 393 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: stock inventories which had been approved by the Madagascar government 394 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,239 Speaker 2: had been exported prior to April two thousand and nine. 395 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: Yet the guitar maker continued ordering wood from Tunam through 396 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: its middleman in Germany. As Nicks put it in. 397 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 6: An email, mister Tunam should now be able to supply 398 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 6: our middleman with all the rosewood and ebony for the 399 00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 6: gray market. 400 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: The market a shady market that put the survival of 401 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,959 Speaker 2: this gorgeous ebony at risk. But when those raids happened 402 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: at the Gibson plant in Nashville, Bill Gibbons says, that 403 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 2: didn't seem to be a concern. 404 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: Nobody cared about the environmental impacts. From my perspective and 405 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 3: what I saw, it was about keeping the machine going, 406 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 3: and those motivations varied depending on who you talked to. 407 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: Gibson would ultimately settle with the government. It agreed to 408 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: pay a three hundred thousand dollars fine plus a fifty 409 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: thousand donation to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. Gibson's 410 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 2: CEO insisted the settlement was not an admission of guilt, 411 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 2: and while the facts of the Gibson raid were a 412 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: bad look for the guitar manufacturer, it was worse for 413 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 2: the Forest Stewardship Council and the Rainforest Alliance, which had 414 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: mistakenly certified illegal wood. These certifications are relied upon by 415 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: corporations across the globe. Later investigations by the Tennesseean newspaper 416 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: would reveal that, starting in two thousand and six, the 417 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: Rainforest Alliance had accepted yearly cash gifts from Gibson ranging 418 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: from three hundred and fifteen thousand dollars to three hundred 419 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: and ninety thousand dollars, making the guitar manufacturer one of 420 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: the Alliance's biggest donors. The Alliance has denied the donations 421 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: had any influence, but the investigation revealed other holes, namely, 422 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: the Gibson's chairman and CEO, Henry Jeskowitz, was serving on 423 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: the Rainforest's Alliance board of directors at the time the 424 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 2: ebony was being certified. All of these connections might convince 425 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: you to grab a tinfoil hat to find a conspiracy 426 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 2: in the works. 427 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 5: Now. 428 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: We reached out to Gibson to hear if they had 429 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 2: any response. In an email, they insisted, quote, this was 430 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 2: well over a decade ago. Gibson is an entirely new company, 431 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: and that's true. The company's leadership is now very different, 432 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: and frankly, we're not trying to stick Gibson's nose in it. Rather, 433 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: it's a bit of a parable of a much larger 434 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: problem that verifying the sustainability of wood is really really challenging. 435 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: But it's not impossible. I know, because Alan has a story. 436 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 4: So Taylor guitars use ebony for their fingerboards, and they 437 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 4: had previously been buying from Central Africa, Congo whatever through 438 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 4: dealers and Bob Taylor he was buying stuff and he said, 439 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 4: you know, I don't really understand all of this because 440 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 4: in reading the documentation that he got from the certified timber, 441 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 4: he said, you know, I remember hearing a story about 442 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 4: the bullshit that was going on in Congo. So he 443 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 4: called me and he said, what's the story? And I said, 444 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 4: look at the bloody disas that these guys have got 445 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 4: a certification but they've actually looked it out to the 446 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 4: forest and it's all legal, but it's certainly not moral. 447 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 4: And he said, well what do we do? And I said, well, 448 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 4: you know, let's look for somebody who's also got ebony 449 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 4: and see if they are doing it sustainably. And you 450 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 4: couldn't find anybody. He wrote an incredibly fat check to 451 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 4: the guys in the bush to say this is what 452 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 4: you need in order to make this sustainable. He then 453 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 4: to know fat check to the forestry department of the 454 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 4: university and said, you've got to work out how to 455 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 4: do this and make sure that I'm having proper sustainable 456 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 4: ebony for mar guitars. And there's a different level of responsibility. 457 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: They actually are doing the job to see to it 458 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 4: directly that it is sustainable. 459 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: In other words, the best way to know the source 460 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 2: of your wood is to actually go to the source. 461 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: And this kind of sustainability it isn't just a buzzword 462 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: or a box to check. Honestly, it's just a good business. 463 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 4: And more important, they are going to outlift all the 464 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 4: other guitar mankers because they're going to have the materials. 465 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 2: Coming up. 466 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 12: Five years ago, you see mccule ere, we were Yees Province. 467 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 4: Now there is nothing. 468 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 11: The corruption was so high level that the paperwork could 469 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 11: be really seem pristine enough to get through even neighboring 470 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 11: countries that are supposed to not allow that trade. 471 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: I'm Summer rain Oaks. Join us again next time for 472 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: Bad Seeds. Bad Seeds is a production of School of 473 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host Summer rain Oaks. 474 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: Lucas Riley is our writer. Gabby Watts is our producer 475 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: and Amelia Brock is our senior producer. Fact Checking is 476 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 2: by Savannah Hugely and Zoe Farrow. Original music is by 477 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: Claire Campbell. Sound design and score is by Jesse Niswanger. 478 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: Our show art is by Pam Peacock. Development was by 479 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: Brian Lavin and Jacob Selzer. Special thanks to our voice 480 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: actors Andy Sandford, Joel Ruiz, ben Etter and Dicana Riccotto. 481 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Brian Lavin, Elsie Crowley, Brandon Barr, Virginia 482 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: Prescott and Jacob Selzer.