1 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week 2 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: someone who has a front row seat to the most 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: fascinating things happening in tech today. We're joined by Lionel Barber, journalist, 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: former editor in chief of The Financial Times, and the 6 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: author of the book Gambling Man, The wild ride of 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: Japan's Masayashi song Cara, I'm curious if you remember all 8 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: the way back in January when President Trump announced Stargate, 9 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: the multi hundred billion dollar initiative to build AI infrastructure 10 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: here in the US. 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I do. I think it was the second 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 2: day of Trump's presidency. 13 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: It absolutely was. And during the announcement, the President was 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: flanked by three people. Do you remember who they were? 15 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: I believe it was Sam Altman, the CEO of Open Ai, 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: Larry Ellison, the co founder of the software giant Oracle, 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: and then the man of the hour, Masiyoshi's son. 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: That's right, also known by the nickname Massa or Massason. 19 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: He's the one we're talking about today because, unlike Altman 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: and Ellison, he's not really a household name in the US, 21 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: and also because Lionel barbera wrote an absolutely fascinating book 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: about him. 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 2: It's true, I actually had no idea who he was, 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: but Masa was definitely infectious that day he spoke after 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: Larry Elson, and you couldn't help but love his self 26 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: deprecating joke when a staffer set up a stool for 27 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: him behind the podium. 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 3: That's good, that's great, I hear it all. 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: My guest on the story this week, Massa's biographer, Lionel Barber, 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: remembers this moment well, and specifically the huge pledge that 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: Massa made to the US. 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: Masa is promising not one hundred billion dollars of investment 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: or two hundred billion dollars of investment, five hundred billion 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 3: dollars of investment in AI data centers around the States. 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 3: This is the beginning of gore there is of America. 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: This is one great example I think. 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: Okay, but I didn't think Massa was American. 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: It's true. He's Japanese of Korean descent. But I want 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: to highlight this moment because I think it's a good 40 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: example of his long held strategy figure out who or 41 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: what is driving technology's latest trends, and then invest big, 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: really big. As the title of Lionel Barber's book suggests 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: Massa really is a gambling man. He's made bets on 44 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: businesses with an almost reckless abandon including companies like Ali Barba, 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: we work in Nvidia and byte Dance. Sometimes his investments 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: are huge wins, but other times they fall flat. 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: I'm actually really excited about this conversation because the evolution 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: of Massa's investments in many ways mimics the evolution of 49 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: technology from the nineteen eighties to today. 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: That's right, I mean wherever innovation goes, So tutors Maslyashison 51 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: and his checkbook. Most recently, actually, after we take this 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: interview with Lionel Barber, Massa's company, SoftBank, pledged forty billion 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: dollars to open AI's latest fundraising round. I keeped off 54 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: my conversation with Lionel by asking him to start at 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: the beginning, just taking a couple of steps back, and 56 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: who is he and what is his company? Soft Bank. 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: He is a Japanese Korean. It's very important that we 58 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: just dwell on this for a couple of minutes, because 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: that means that he's an outsider. He's not pure Japanese. 60 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: His grandfather and grandmother came as economic migrants from Korea 61 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 3: at a time when Korea was a colony of Japan, 62 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 3: so they had a Japanese alias. They were living under cover, 63 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 3: and then obviously had the Second World War where Koreans 64 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: were treated very badly. They were forced labor, they were 65 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: discriminated against. They lived in a ghetto in a shantytown, 66 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: and Massa was born on the edge of that shantytown 67 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty seven. So he grew up his first 68 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: few years in poverty, and his father was a bootlegger, 69 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 3: a loan shark, and then went into pachinko gambling. This underground, 70 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 3: underworld figure made money. So Massa then said, I'm not 71 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 3: going to go into pachinko gambling. I'm going to learn English. 72 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to be a tech entrepreneur myself, and the 73 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 3: route to that is to come to America. So he 74 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: then gets into high school, fast tracked into college, and 75 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: then he does three years at Berkeley where he founds 76 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: his first business, and he then goes back to Japan 77 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 3: after six years to found SoftBank, which essentially is a 78 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 3: software distribution business. 79 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: You were the editor of the Financial Times, i think 80 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: for fifteen years from two thousand and five to twenty twenty, 81 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: during which time I can imagine you came across a 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: lot of interesting people and potential subjects for a book, 83 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: but you chose this subject. 84 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: Why I went for a businessman who intrigued me because 85 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: I've met him a couple of times and there was 86 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: no Western biography of him, and he was somebody who 87 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 3: intrigued me because of his giant risk appetite. And lastly, 88 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: I thought he was a creature or a businessman who 89 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 3: represented an age, the aged globalization, open board borderers, finance, 90 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 3: where tech this huge influence of tech from the microchip 91 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: to the internet, now artificial intelligence, and he's been associated 92 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: with that for four decades. So I thought it's a 93 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: good subject. 94 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: What is it that you can't understand about the world 95 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: of technology and how it's developed without understanding Massa? 96 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 3: In history, Massa has been right about the grand arc 97 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: of history when it comes to how technology is developed. 98 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: I mean, he was early ish on the microchip. He 99 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: claims to have had this epiphany where he saw a 100 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 3: computer magazine in the mid nineteen seventies and said, oh, 101 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 3: this is wonderful, this is amazing. By the way, that's 102 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: very similar to Bill Gates's own story, so you have 103 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: to wonder whether he possibly appropriated it. But I wouldn't 104 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: want to cast dispersions, But I'm just saying that Bill 105 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: Gates tells exactly the same story about opening the computer 106 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 3: magazine and seeing the Intel processor. But the serious point 107 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 3: is he understood that software was going to be a 108 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 3: very potent force. So he decided to go into software 109 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: distribution at a time when that wasn't a business in Japan. 110 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: And not only that, when Japan was the world leading 111 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: economy because of his hardware. 112 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: Correct, they were great at hardware, but not so much software. Anyway, 113 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: Massa got that right. Then he pivots to the Internet. 114 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 3: He invests in Yahoo, he invests in Ali Baba, the 115 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 3: great e commerce giant in China. He makes huge fortunes 116 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 3: as a result of that. But then he pivots to 117 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 3: mobile and mobile internet and sets up his own mobile 118 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: phone business, taking on well one of the most bad 119 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: companies in the world, NTT DoCoMo, the formerly state telecoms champion. 120 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 3: And then he pivots and he talks into AI. Now 121 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: on AI, he has been heralding the moment in the 122 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: future where you will see singularity, where robots intelligence essentially 123 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: equates or surpasses human intelligence and what that would mean. 124 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: So I think he's been something of a visionary Internet 125 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 3: profit and technology profit as well as an investor. 126 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: I want to understand a bit more about Massa's relationship 127 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: with the US. I mean, you said that he transferred 128 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: to high school in the US, which I can't imagine 129 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: how hard that must have been from Japan in a 130 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: pre internet age. I mean, how on earth did he 131 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: blood off? 132 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 3: Can you imagine you've basically been in Japanese high school, 133 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: you don't really speak any English, and then you go 134 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 3: and he did a summer course for six weeks. And 135 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: I think the one thing I'd say about Masa is 136 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: he really does work hard. He's an incredibly focused individual. 137 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: So he worked, worked, worked on his English and it 138 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: got better. And then he got a break because at 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 3: high school he wanted to apply for university early, and 140 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 3: the teacher basically gave him extra time to take the exams, 141 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: so he had a dictionary in front of him. They 142 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: went to the local exam board, and you know, because 143 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: he was quite bright, so he did very well in 144 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: things like maths, But can you imagine taking an English exam. Anyway, 145 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 3: he finished sort of somewhere near midnight, and he got through, 146 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 3: and he got to a place called Holy Names, and 147 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 3: then he transferred to UC Berkeley, where he majored in economics. 148 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: It shows an immense determination and resourcefulness. 149 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: You mentioned he was Korean Japanese, grew up facing enormous prejudice, 150 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: decided not to use the Japanese name that his family 151 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: had adopted it, rather to use his Korean name, even 152 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: though he didn't speak Korean. A huge believer in the 153 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: future of technology and technological development, why did he leave 154 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: UC Berkeley to go back to Japan rather than just 155 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: trying to make his fortune in the US. 156 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: Well, he gave a promise to his mother and to 157 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 3: his parents, his father that he would come back. He 158 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 3: also had to promise that he wouldn't marry I'm sorry listeners, 159 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 3: that he wouldn't marry an American girl, that he had 160 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: to come back and get married in Japan. And he 161 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: also promised, he didn't keep that he would do all 162 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: studies and no business, because actually he did some studies 163 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 3: and he did business. 164 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: And did he found soft Bank. As soon as he 165 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: got back to Japan. 166 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 3: He spent almost a year trying to figure out what 167 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: to do. And its important story how he made his 168 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 3: first fortune at Berkeley by developing an electronic speech translator, 169 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 3: where he worked with a man I discovered, Professor Forrest Moser, 170 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: who was the original inventor of this speech translator. Anyway, 171 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: they turned it into a commercial product and sold it 172 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: to Sharp. He did make money from that, but he 173 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 3: wasn't sure what to do when he went back to Japan, 174 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: and he thought about Pachinko, then he said no, And 175 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: then he came on this idea of software distribution, which 176 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,479 Speaker 3: was a completely new business. 177 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Does that mean to sending CDs around? 178 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: And what does software distribution mean? 179 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 3: Well, in those days they didn't have CDs. I mean 180 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 3: we're talking in sort of nineteen eighty one two, so 181 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 3: little boxes. And essentially this man Mase, I mean, he 182 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: is the most amazing networker you've ever seen. He met everybody, 183 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 3: He met the boss of Samsung when he was only 184 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: twenty five years old. Twenty four years old, he's meeting 185 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: these people are incredible. Bill Gates remembers him. And essentially 186 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 3: Gates was trying to sell software in Japan. He didn't 187 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: choose Maso as his partner. But you had to have 188 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: a relationship with the developer, but then crucially a relationship 189 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 3: with the retailer. And he was the middleman. But you 190 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: really had to crack the retailing system. And what he 191 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: did by that is he went to an exhibition, didn't 192 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 3: sell very much stuff, but kind of said softback is 193 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 3: going to take over the world. And he got a 194 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 3: big break by one of the major retailers sent their 195 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 3: boss around to see him, and you know, there's this guy, 196 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: he's only twenty four years old, and he does the deal, 197 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: and so he cracks the retail system but also acts 198 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: as a bridge between America and Japan. It's clever. 199 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: After the break, Massa becomes the richest man in the world. Briefly, 200 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: stay with us, welcome back. Recently, I spoke with Lionel Barber, 201 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: author of Gambling Man, the Wild Ride of Japan's Masi 202 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: Ashi Son about the legendary tech investor, and I wanted 203 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: to know how Massa became the world's richest man back 204 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: in the early two thousands. So there's a moment, a 205 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: very brief period where he is the richest man in 206 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: the world. What is that moment? And what is the 207 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: basis of his fortune. 208 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: Well, in Japan, he did very well on the software 209 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: distribution side. But then there's the bubble, real estate bubble crashes, 210 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 3: the banking systems underwater, there's low interest rates, strong yen, 211 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 3: and so what he does is he pivots back to 212 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: the United States and starts buying some assets. So he 213 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 3: gets into telemarketing. He buys amazingly this computer magazine publishing business, 214 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 3: Ziff Davis. He gets into buying Condex. 215 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: The trade fair Condext is like a predecessor to the 216 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: Consumer Electronics Show. 217 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it was the computer trade fair when PCs ruled 218 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: the world. This was the trade fair you had to 219 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: go to. It was owned by the formidable Trump supporter, 220 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 3: Sheldon Adelson, I should say Sheldon Adulson sold the trade 221 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: fair Condex to Mussa for eight hundred and fifty million dollars. Basically, 222 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 3: the business is peaking, but Massa thinks he's hit pay 223 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: dirt because he's now the impresario where he can meet everybody, right, 224 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: and he's got a I think. 225 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: He described it as a map and a compass to 226 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: the USA. 227 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: There you go, that's what it was. But he's the 228 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: he's mister big he's running the trade show. Very shortly afterwards, 229 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: he hears about this company called Yahoo, which many people 230 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: might not think is so great now and it's all 231 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 3: been superseded by Google, but believe me, in nineteen ninety six, 232 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 3: ninety seven, ninety eight, ninety nine, Yahoo was the deal. 233 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 3: Massa got in early and by investing he got forty percent. 234 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: And I tell the story about how he outmuscled the 235 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 3: legendary Sequoia investor, my Moritz and Sequoia, you know, Cirrus 236 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: VC firm. 237 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: He was just able to be more aggressive than Soil. 238 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: He was more aggressive and he essentially Jerry Yang, the 239 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: co founder of Yahoo, gave me two and a half 240 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 3: hours of his time to talk about this and about 241 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: his relationship with Massa going back to ninety five ninety six, 242 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: and he says Massas that you need one hundred million, 243 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: I'll give you a hundred million, and Jerry An says, well, 244 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: we don't need one hundred million, and Massa says, everybody 245 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: needs one hundred million re tarlets. Everybody needs a hundred million, 246 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: And he then says, if you don't take it, I'll 247 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: give it to the competition. And by the way, he 248 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 3: does that all the time. He really does threaten people. 249 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 3: If you don't take my money, I'm going to give 250 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: it to the competitor. So he banks that investment. Forty 251 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: percent of Yahoo Yahoo stock is going through the roof, 252 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: and then he's able to sell a little bit of 253 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 3: stock and make a load of money. And people look 254 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: at that and say, well, he's got the money. So 255 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 3: he invests in about four hundred companies and then obviously. 256 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: Literally the richest man in the world for three. 257 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: Days February fifteenth, note that date. So this was a 258 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: lot about Yahoo, but also the dot com bubble, so 259 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: mass is seen as the center there, and for three 260 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: days he is the richest man in the world, Richer 261 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: than Warren Buffett, richer than Rupert Murdoch, you name it. 262 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 3: And then it all goes pop. 263 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: But the amazing thing is, I think the timeline is 264 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: that he makes his Ali Barbar investment very shortly before 265 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: the dot com crash, right, So in a sense, just 266 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: as his fortunes are beginning to wane as the richest 267 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: man in the world, he's made what some regard as 268 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: one of the greatest technology investments of all time. 269 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: Now, it's really interesting that you've honed in on this 270 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 3: question of timing. You're dead right invests in. He's in 271 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 3: a speed dating session in Beijing, and again I described 272 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 3: this story where he's he's just meeting all these Chinese 273 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 3: tech companies and he sees Jack ma and he smells 274 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: the horse flesh. He thinks this is really the guy, 275 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 3: and after barely fifteen minutes, he says, I want to invest. 276 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: I've spoken to two other people in that meeting in 277 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 3: Beijing in ninety nine. They all said, no, Masa, that's 278 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 3: not the right thing, and he insisted and he got 279 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 3: it right now. I also spoke about for the book 280 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: to Joe Sai, who's now chairman Ali Baba, who is 281 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: the co founder with Jack maher and Joe Sai said, 282 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: you know, we were really lucky to get that investment 283 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: because with the dot com crash, Ali Baba could have 284 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: been really hurt. So I think it's really interesting that 285 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: Masa made that deal at that time, that it helped him, 286 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: but it also helped Ali Baba. 287 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: There's an excerpt of your book in wid magazine, and 288 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: I think you mentioned one of your favorite stories from 289 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: the book is one which has to do with Massa 290 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs and an early hint about the future of 291 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: the iPhone. 292 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: The consequential meeting that you're referring to, where Massa, and 293 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: this is by Massa's account, comes up with an idea 294 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 3: for what we all now now is the iPhone, which 295 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 3: essentially is not just a music player but can do 296 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 3: other things, and. 297 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: It's Massa comes up with the same. 298 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 3: Yes, he has the idea, but Steve Jobs says, well, 299 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 3: very interesting, Massa. Because Massa then draws a drawing I 300 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: love writing this because it's so funny, and Massa insists 301 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: he wrote this drawing, and Steve Shall says, I don't 302 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 3: need your shitty drawing. I'm working on something myself like that, 303 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 3: and ma says, oh, oh, well tell me about it. 304 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 3: He goes no, no, anyway. Massa then claims that he says, well, 305 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 3: I want exclusive distribution of this new thing, and he 306 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: claims Steve Jobs agreed because he liked Masa and of 307 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: course this was hugely consequential. It was massively important. Massa's 308 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 3: just trying to set up a mobile phone business and 309 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: he gets this wonder product. The only problem with the 310 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: story and I wouldn't wish to challenge it too much, 311 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 3: but I mean it is nearly three years ahead of launch. 312 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: Massa also says, by the way, that in that period 313 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: he came up with ideas like emoticons and other features 314 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 3: of the iPhone. I think it's fair to say, because 315 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 3: Masa is fascinated by technology, that he did have some 316 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 3: new ideas about going beyond the iPod to think about 317 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 3: the iPhone. I think I give him some credit for that. 318 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: But did he invent or did he kind of coinvent 319 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 3: the iPhone? Well, we'll have to ask Steve Jobs, won't we. 320 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: He did secure distribution of the iPhone in Japan, which 321 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: was a major boost for his business. 322 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 3: Well, it was absolutely critical because Massa had bought Vodaphone Japan. 323 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 3: Now that was the also ran mobile phone business in Japan. 324 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: The only thing going for it was that it had 325 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 3: David Beckham in its marketing campaign. Otherwise it was pretty undistinguished. 326 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 3: And Massad had a huge amount of money nearly twenty 327 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: billion dollars, huge leveraged bid. So he needed given he 328 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: was going to create his own brand, SoftBank Mobile, he 329 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 3: needed a great product and you know what, the iPhone 330 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 3: was the wonder product. So all credit to him forgetting it. 331 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: And beating out Japanese competition. 332 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: Coming up, Massa continues to make big bets on the 333 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: tech industry. What went so right and what went so wrong? 334 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: After the break Welcome back, We're diving into the amazing 335 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: story of Masashi's son, both the highs and the lows, 336 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: from his successful Yahoo and Ali Barba deals to the 337 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: acquisition of Condex, a trade fair with a bloated price tag, 338 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: but which likely led to some of the most important 339 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: connections in the tech industry. What Master is most well 340 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: known for maybe SoftBank's Vision Fund. Founded in twenty seventeen. 341 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: The one hundred billion dollar venture capital fund has had 342 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: a major impact on tech, and I wanted to hear 343 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: from Massa's biographer, Lionel Barber, about how the Vision Fund 344 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: came to be. 345 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 3: Mass has always wanted to be an investor. He can 346 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 3: be an operator, but it's a little bit boring compared 347 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 3: to the thrill of investing. So round about twoenty twelve thirteen, 348 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 3: he pivots away from becoming the world's greatest telecom operator 349 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 3: because by the way, he was sizing up that bid 350 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 3: for Sprint, which was successful, linking that to SoftBank Mobile. 351 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: He says, I want to be a global investor, I 352 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 3: need a front guy. So he hires Nick esch Aura 353 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: from Google to be his number two and potential successor. 354 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 3: That doesn't end well, but around this time he says, 355 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 3: what we need is to create something of scale in 356 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 3: venture investing, and I want to do something that is 357 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 3: bigger than anything. So remember VC funds in the mid 358 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 3: teens that probably five billion was the ceiling for what 359 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 3: people thought was feasible. But Massa then says, well, I 360 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 3: think we should be bigger than that, and I think 361 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 3: the money he gets introduced some introductions is in the Gulf, 362 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 3: in the Sovereign Wealth Fund Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirates. 363 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 3: This is where some money is, so why don't we 364 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: go there? And I describe how he's on this trip 365 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: with his bankers and he suddenly turns twenty billion dollars 366 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 3: into one hundred billion dollars for the fund. They can't 367 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 3: believe it, but essentially that the important point is there's 368 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 3: a convergence of interest between Massa, who wants a lot 369 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 3: of money to invest and get in with the latest 370 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 3: technology companies, and the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, who 371 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 3: wants to get into the tech eco system and you know, 372 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 3: diversify his countries, the Desert Kingdom's economy away from oil. 373 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 3: So he's prepared to put up money, huge amounts of 374 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 3: money to do that. And that's what happens. And you know, 375 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: it's a roller coaster ride. Some bets are not bad. 376 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 3: It's not so distinguished, but not a disaster. But it 377 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 3: certainly blew away the competition and high as everybody would knows. 378 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 3: I mean, the impact on valuations was tremendous and it 379 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 3: set off an arms race in venture fund investing. 380 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: What was the vision that he laid out for the 381 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: Vision Fund to NBS and his investors other investors in the. 382 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 3: Gulf, I am the man to introduce you to the 383 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 3: most cutting edge technology companies in the world. I am 384 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 3: the man who understands the application of technology which will 385 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 3: help modernize your country. I will be part of. 386 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: That talk about some of the investments, because I think 387 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: open Ai, Nvidia might Dance were in there, but so 388 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: were we work even when the whole world thought that 389 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: this was a losing bet, and as I kept doubling down. 390 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: Yes, because he said to colleagues, and I report this 391 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 3: in the book that everybody said I was wrong about 392 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 3: Ali Barber, and I was stuck with Ali Barber, and 393 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 3: I turned one hundred million dollars into one hundred and 394 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 3: thirty billion dollars billion by the way, with a B. 395 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: So the more you tell me that I'm wrong about 396 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 3: Adam Newman and we work, the more I say, now 397 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 3: I'm sticking with him. It's one of his faults. His 398 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: weaknesses is that he falls for founders. If he thinks 399 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: one is the greatest, he kind of encourages them to 400 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 3: think even bigger. And I was talking to one of 401 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 3: the soft Bank executives asking them, well, describe this relationship, 402 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: and he said to me, it's very simple. It was 403 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: like feeding a monkey alcohol. That was Massa's relationship with 404 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 3: Adam Newman. 405 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: How do you explain how he got it so right 406 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: in some cases and so wrong in others. 407 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 3: Well, you've mentioned some very important investments like byte Dance 408 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 3: and also in VideA. We got to mention Arm, the 409 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: UK based designer of advanced semiconductor chips, very important company, 410 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 3: bought that cash thirty two billion in two thousand and 411 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: sixteen and then put part of that in the Vision Fund. 412 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 3: He did invest in in Nvidia and he held it 413 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 3: for a while, but then Odea. He had five percent 414 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 3: of in VideA, but he sold. This could have been 415 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: the Ali Barber investment, but he didn't stay with it. 416 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: And he makes a joke about it now, But that 417 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: was a big miss now overall in the Vision Fund, 418 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 3: I think what happened. There's an adage in Wall Street 419 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 3: that you can make a load of money on a 420 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 3: small amount of money, but trying to make a load 421 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: of money on a load of money is much harder 422 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 3: to get the returns. And also discipline completely broke down. 423 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 3: I mean, it's mad. People are being rated according to 424 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 3: how much money they were putting through the door. Massa 425 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 3: was seeing people and you know, handing out money. That 426 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: this hilarious story of Herman Marula of imagined. He goes 427 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 3: to Tokyo and he's hoping, he's hoping, above hope that 428 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: he can get fifty million dollars from Massa and Massa says, no, 429 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 3: you take five hundred million dollars. Herman Marula doesn't know 430 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 3: what to do with the money. So it's mad. And 431 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 3: I've talked to people around Martha and people who are 432 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 3: involved in the process, and they do say, you know 433 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 3: there were too many ship burgers. Excuse my language again. 434 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the other metaphor you use is 435 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: force feeding. 436 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 3: So yes, force feeding, thinking that you can get growth 437 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 3: by turbo charging the tech companies with just money, and 438 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: obviously that doesn't work. It depends on the found It 439 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 3: depends is there a serious business plan. You know, companies 440 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 3: don't need that money per se that amount of money. 441 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 3: And also, by the way, it's not venture fund capital really, 442 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: I know he describes it as such, but if it's 443 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 3: venture fund, you don't do what you do with we 444 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: work well, you keep putting money in. When it's hugely 445 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: loss making and blown up up, you let it go 446 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 3: and move on to the next thing. So I think 447 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 3: all the discipline broke down and it ended in huge 448 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 3: amount of tears when COVID came. I suppose one last PostScript, 449 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: which is very relevant to today, is that Massa claimed 450 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: to be investing in AI companies. But these were like 451 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: dot com companies from twenty years before that had the 452 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 3: dot com moniker, but they weren't the real deal, and 453 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 3: they certainly weren't deep AI like Nvidia. 454 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 1: How much do you know about how that sort of 455 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: Stargate moment came together, and can you help us understand 456 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,719 Speaker 1: between Massa, Larry Ellison, Sam and Donald Trump, what is 457 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: each person's role in Stargate. 458 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 3: I've been trying to put this together, Arson. I don't 459 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 3: claim to have the full story, but here are some 460 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 3: important parts. The first is Massa's on his back flat 461 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: out after he loses a load of money during COVID. 462 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 3: He then comes back briefly because everybody's enthusiastic about tech. 463 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: Then there's another correction post to the Ukraine War, and 464 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 3: he goes essentially serving penance in private in Tokyo. He's 465 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: grounded because he can't travel because of COVID. But what 466 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 3: he's doing is plotting his comeback, and he's thinking, what 467 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 3: assets do I have which would allow me to play 468 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: a big role in the next phase of the technological revolution? 469 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 3: And yes it is AI and he says, well, one 470 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: thing I have is ARM, the designer of these super chips. 471 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: And he says, well, we're going to monetize that more. 472 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: But what can I do to leverage Arm? He tried 473 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 3: to do a merger within video, but the regulators turn 474 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 3: him down. Now what he then says is, oh my God, 475 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 3: I've just tried chat GPT. This really is an amazing product. 476 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 3: I've got to meet Sam Altman. I've met him before, 477 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 3: but I need to persuade him to take my money. Well, 478 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: I understand that, actually that didn't come across straight away. 479 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 3: They did not. They weren't big buddies, and Sam sort 480 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 3: of gid I didn't need your money. I don't need this. 481 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: I don't need five billion, ten billion or even more 482 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 3: that you're offering. At that time. Sam Altman is buddy 483 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 3: buddies with Microsoft because they're supplying a lot of the 484 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: computing power. But Microsoft, they say, well, we don't want 485 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 3: to be overly reliant on Sam Altman for the next 486 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 3: phase of artificial intelligence, in the race to artificial general intelligence, 487 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 3: we need our own capacity. So there's a bit of 488 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 3: a sort of shifting balance of power there. So that 489 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 3: means Sam Altman, he's saying, I need more computing power 490 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 3: at this point. Larry Ellison, because he's a neighbor of 491 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 3: Trump's in Florida, does have a data center plant he 492 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 3: wants to build. It's in Abilene, Texas, and he's looking 493 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 3: at that. He's got lots of money, but he's also 494 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 3: got computing power, and he also wants to get into 495 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 3: the AI super AI race, so there's a connection. 496 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: What does this moment mean to him in that case 497 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: where his view of what's to come seems to be 498 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: playing out. 499 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 3: Well, he's a very happy person. And that's why he's 500 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 3: wearing that big smile next to Donald Trump, because he 501 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 3: was on his back in the early part of this 502 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 3: decade because he lost so much money on the Vision Fund. 503 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 3: So he feels vindicated. He feels I'd be in the 504 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: right side of history. I was right in essence about 505 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 3: how the Internet was going to have a profound, a 506 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 3: huge revolutionary impact on the economy and society. And now 507 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 3: it's going to be AI, and I am a profit vindicated. 508 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: I guess he's the gambling man, not you. But I mean, 509 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: if you had to make a bet on how Stargate 510 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: will play out for him, it will this be another 511 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: triumph for another wash. 512 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 3: I think it'd be better than a wash. I'm not 513 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: quite prepared to say that it would be a triumph 514 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 3: in terms of massive returns for him and his investors. 515 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be as confident as that. I've already talked 516 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 3: to a couple of investors who say, well, we'll come 517 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 3: in at the beginning on Stargate and then we'll sell 518 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: down some of our holdings to realize the money because 519 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 3: the valuations were not sure about. I think he wants 520 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: to write his part in history. He wants to be 521 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 3: part of this next jump to artificial in gel and intelligence, 522 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 3: and that's what I report in my book. In my 523 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 3: last interview, he talked about that legacy just to close. 524 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the other thing people think about when they 525 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: think about legacy is succession, which hasn't always been an 526 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: easy thing for Massa to plan. Do you have any 527 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: sense of succession plans? 528 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 3: The answer to that is nope. He did talk about 529 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 3: stepping down when he was sixty, but now he says 530 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 3: he's fulfilled and he's going to make history. And I 531 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: think the succession involves him being carried out in a 532 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 3: box and then who knows what happens to SoftBank then 533 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 3: will it be broken up? When asked about succession, he says, well, 534 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 3: I don't have any sons, so somebody was too polite 535 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 3: not to point out that, you know, well, you do 536 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 3: have two daughters, but they're very much in the background 537 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 3: and they're not involved. Directly in the business. So it's 538 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 3: there are one or two talented Japanese executives who could 539 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 3: take over the gotto son the finance directors of a 540 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 3: very strong executive, but nobody is like Masa and soft 541 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 3: Bank would not be soft Bank without Masoci song. 542 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: Lionel, thank you. I really enjoyed that conversation, and Gratefulty 543 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: for shedding so much light on this fascinating character. 544 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: Thank you, os It's a great pleasure. And thank you 545 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 3: for reading the book and asking such good questions. Thank you. 546 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: That's it for this week for tech Stuff. I'm Asva Loosha. 547 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Victoria Dominguez. 548 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by Me, Karen Price and Kate 549 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katria Novel for iHeart Podcasts. Jack 550 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdock theme song. Join 551 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: us on Friday for the weekend tech Karen and I 552 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: will run through all the most important tech headlines, including 553 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 1: some you may have missed. Please rate, review, and reach 554 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. 555 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: We love hearing from you.