WEBVTT - S2:Ep 10 - Révérence 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:07.920 You started your book in the classroom. Why was that. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:14.319 The vast majority of people who have ballet in their 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:18.600 lives will spend the vast majority of their time in 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.079 the classroom. You are learning how to be a student, 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:26.760 You're learning how to communicate your ideas or not, and 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:31.400 you're absorbing all kinds of lessons about your place in 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:36.199 the world and how you are or are not valued 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.000 simply by who the teacher pays attention to, how the 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:41.280 classroom is structured. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.159 When I think about what it felt like to go 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.120 to ballet class every day as a kid, it feels routine. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.280 I spent a lot of my childhood in the ballet classroom. 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.880 A big room with a high ceiling, old crown molding, 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:05.080 tall pillars, big mirrors on one side, a piano in 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.760 the corner where the Russian pianist played, the long wooden 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.440 bar that lined the wall. Our point shoes clip clopped 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:13.440 and echoed. 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:14.960 Every day. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.120 I'd pin up my hair and tape up my toes. 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.440 I'd walk in, put down my water bottle to save 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.760 my favorite spot at the bar. The point shoes smelt 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.520 like satin, sweat and sweet glue. I might chat with 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.080 my friends while I stretched, but mostly I was silent 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:36.680 until class began. I liked the quiet, the focus, the preparation, 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:45.520 and of course once class started, I didn't talk at all. 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.200 It was a daily practice that I didn't give much thought. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.720 That wasn't until I started to read Chloe Angel's book 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.200 Turning Point, How a new generation of dancers is saving 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.560 ballet from itself. Chloe interviewed one hundred people to analyze 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.960 ballet culture today. When I read it, I got to 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.240 this section about ballet's hidden curriculum, the things children learn 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.800 by accident, the unintended lessons they pick up in the classroom. 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.400 I underlined line after line Chloe wrote, in this hidden curriculum, 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.680 the ideal ballet dancer is silent, observant, and obedient. The 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.000 ideal dancer should also be pleasing and pleased, her face 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:30.000 never conveying how much pain she's in. I wrote in 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:35.320 the margins, realizing how this has affected me. When I 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.680 was reading that part of your book about the hidden curriculum, 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:44.160 It's like this light bulb went off, This realization like 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.360 donned in my brain and I just thought, my gosh, 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.160 like how much of my personality and how much of 0:02:53.200 --> 0:03:02.239 my life has been molded by spending every day in 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:03.680 a ballet class as a kid. 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:05.919 It just like. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.520 Really got me questioning all kinds of things about myself. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:11.840 Did you have that experience? 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.160 I'm not very good at ballet, Like, I'm just not. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.679 About five years ago, I was talking to my therapist 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.520 about why that bothered me so much that I wasn't 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:33.480 good both actually and fictionally at ballet, and I realized 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.400 that it was because it felt like failing at a 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.400 very particular kind of femininity that I had wanted to 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:44.720 succeed at since I was very, very small. And one 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.120 of the things that you learn in ballet is what 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:54.360 a good woman looks like, how you're supposed to look, 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:59.920 how you're supposed to move, how you're supposed to behave, 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.200 how you're supposed tolerate pain, how you're supposed to conceal labor, 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.400 who you're supposed to obey, who you get to have 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:14.320 power over. You learn all that in the ballet studio. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.200 But the reward for all that is accomplishing this very 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:29.680 particular kind of femininity. I spent so much of my 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.040 youth looking up to the women who had done it 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.400 and wanting to be like them, And I didn't do it, 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:45.360 didn't achieve it, and that disappointment is really profound, not 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.479 just because it feels like failing at ballet, because it 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.120 feels like failing at womanhood. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.479 I think it's so hard to get over ballet because 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.200 the lessons start early in the ballet classroom and they're 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:09.800 folded into something otherworldly, something deeply beautiful. It's like Chloe 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:10.400 once said to. 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:19.960 Me, that shit stays with you forever. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.719 For my heart, podcasts and Rococoa punch. This is the 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:35.039 turning room of mirrors. I'm Erica Lance, Part ten Reverence. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.599 I think ballet in a lot of ways benefits from 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.520 the perception that it is a world apart, that it's 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.000 separate from the real world, that it doesn't have to 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:52.279 play by the rules of the real world. But it isn't, 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:56.600 and it does. It's just a workplace. It's the real world. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:58.839 It's not separate from the real world. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.039 In the classroom, teachers drilled us on the same steps 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.400 over and over. They yelled above the music while we danced, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.600 shouted corrections things we had to change. They reminded us 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.000 to smile, something you need to train yourself to be 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.240 able to do when you perform I remember one time 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.360 a girl in my class just couldn't get the steps. 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.200 The teacher had her do them solo across the floor 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.320 while we all watched in the corner. She started to cry, 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.839 but the teacher kept having her comeback and start again. 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.680 We were trained to make impossible things look easy, and 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.800 I became attached to the facade of perfection. 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:41.120 I think about the suffering that we accept and the 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.520 innovation that we don't pursue because we're so attached to 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:59.080 ideas about tradition and suffering. I remember very distinctly sitting 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.920 in the audience of a New York City ballet performance 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:07.919 and thinking, this is all just a really great metaphor 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.160 for womanhood. You're working incredibly hard to make this thing 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:17.200 look beautiful, and you're expected to conceal all of the 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.120 work that goes into that. And in fact, if you 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.280 show the work, if people know how hard you're working 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:32.120 to make this perfect, flawless, ethereal, highly feminine thing, you've failed. 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.560 Contrast that with a lot of the activities that my 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:49.280 men friends and peers were either playing or watching. You're 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.680 allowed to show the work. You know, if you get 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:56.120 sacked in football, you're allowed to grimace. In fact, in 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.480 European football you were encouraged to let people know how 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:04.080 much it had. You actually get rewarded for flopping on 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.600 the ground and making a scene and showing the work. 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.080 But in this high per feminine activity, you have to 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.600 conceal all the pain. You have to conceal all the work. 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:18.520 And in fact, I think that the gap between what 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.120 you see on stage as an audience member and what 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.760 you know the dancer is most likely experiencing that duality 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.240 and that contradiction is part of the appeal of ballet. 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.120 It's part of the mystique of ballet, which is profoundly 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:31.720 messed up. 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.839 Yeah, that's such a good point too, Like people do 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.160 know that points shows are incredibly painful, and people would 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:43.800 ask me that when they learned I was dancing on 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.240 point and want to hear about my feet and yeah, 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.280 what do your feet look like? Are they all messed up? 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.040 And something that I think people should really sit with 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.000 and think, should we really be applauding people for being 0:08:58.000 --> 0:08:59.920 able to conceal their pain as well as they do? 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.360 Is that really a skill that we want young people, 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:07.480 and particularly young women and girls to be cultivating and perfecting. 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.240 And the other place where it really felt like a 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.680 metaphor for womanhood was that, you know, you think of 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:20.160 a balid answer, you think of a woman. But in 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.280 most of the professional ballet world, at least men are 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.560 in charge. Meanwhile, girls out number of boys in ballet 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:32.440 classes twenty to one. And you know, the woman is 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.840 the icon, and she's the person you look at on stage, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:42.319 but behind the scenes controlling the levels of powers omen. 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.600 Now, boys in ballet do not have it easy. They 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:51.760 might deal with stigma, terrible bullying or homophobia, a pressure 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.880 to be more quote unquote masculine, But in the classroom, 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:57.800 boys hold a special place. 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.760 You know, there are all these to try and get 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.000 more boys into ballet. There's a chronic shortage of boys 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.000 in ballet. For most of them, they don't want to 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.800 be there. They have to be cajoled into going and 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:17.200 bribed into staying, either because they're given scholarships or they're 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.600 held to a lower standard of behavior and talent than 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.000 girls are. Lots of men that I interviewed said that 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.560 their teachers had put off the transition from shorts to 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.600 tights for as long as they possibly can because they 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.160 didn't want to scare the boys out of ballet. Meanwhile, 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:40.440 the girls have been wearing heavily circumscribed attire to ballet 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.160 since they were three, and there are no exceptions. If 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.520 you don't feel comfortable in the leathart and the tips 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.280 doesn't matter. If you don't want to do it, there 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.800 are ten other girls who do. And so ballet culture 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.200 in general bends over backwards to get boys into ballet, 0:10:54.320 --> 0:11:02.440 to keep boys into ballet. One artistic director told me 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.800 that boys in ballet are treated like golden princes or 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.920 like little princes. They're treated like they're special and better 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.559 than girls, and the girls see that and the boys 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.480 internalize it, and so I don't think we should be 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.560 surprised that when those boys grow up and become professional 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.120 dancers and enter a company that is run by a 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:27.240 man with unquestioned power, that they start looking around and thinking, 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:38.360 my behavior doesn't have any negative consequences. These women are disposable. 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:44.560 I am special and irreplaceable. And a lot of girls 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.600 and young women in ballet are trained to be quiet 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.680 and obedient and compliant, and to tolerate pain and discomfort 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.000 and things that cross boundaries. 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.360 Chloe Angel says she realized while she worked on her 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.719 book that sometimes she'd go back to this old way 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.520 of thinking of seeing herself and the world. 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:32.920 I started calling it ballet brain because it would happen 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.400 a lot. And I really noticed when I started observing 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.160 ballet classes for field work and for reporting, was that 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:47.040 I could not take my eyes off the teacher. I 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:52.920 was at a local dance studio in my town of Carlville, Iowa, 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.000 and instead of looking out at these young dances in 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.720 a pre point class, I just kept watching the teacher 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.200 when I was supposed to be reporting on these girls 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.880 and their transition from flat to point. And I just 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.720 remember noticing that about myself and thinking, oh boy, it's 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:17.120 really in me, because that's the other point of reference 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.600 as you're constantly checking the teacher, either because they are 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:25.319 demonstrating an exercise or because you're checking you know, are 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.440 they watching me? Do they like what they see? Do 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.440 they not like what they see? Am I worthless? 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:30.280 Today? 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.079 It's really in me in ways that I am aware 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.240 of and also ways that I'm not aware of yet. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.240 And I was very fortunate to be living with someone 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.520 and having my book edited by someone who didn't grow 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.640 up in ballet and who didn't come to it with 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.680 a lot of the assumptions and sort of taken for 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:53.560 granted ideas that I did. And so having to explain 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.680 some of these concepts, especially the more egregious ones, to 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.439 non ballet people, was really easy to see, like, oh, 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:07.960 I got a bad case of ballet brain on that one. 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.840 Do you remember some other instances like that moment in 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.120 the studio when you were like, wait a minute, I'm 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.320 doing X or I'm assuming why. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.520 An artistic director of an American ballet company told me 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:28.360 about the handful of times when he's decided to not 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.440 renew a contract of a dancer who he didn't think 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.800 was in good enough shape, was too fad, And he 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.560 explained it to me that, you know, they do everything 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.200 they can to make sure their dancers are healthy, and 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.040 they really try and to support them in getting into shape, 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:52.280 which again is a euphemism for skinny, but if they're not, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.240 in his words, if the dancer is not willing to 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.640 put in the work, then he has to think about, 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.800 you know, the long term spinal health of the men 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.320 who are lifting them. And he said something to me like, 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:08.080 my back remembers every dancer I ever lifted, and I 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.520 finished the interview and I was like, yeah, I mean, look, 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.000 that's not ideal, but I get it. It makes sense 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.240 to me. And I walked down into my kitchen and 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.600 I recounted a lot of the interaction to my then fiance, 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.840 who did not rub in ballet, knew basically nothing about 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.240 ballet until he started dating me, and he was like, yeah, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.640 that sounds pretty messed up. My instinct was to defend 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:33.680 it and to saying no, this is why it has 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:34.360 to be this way. 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.160 That was my reaction too. Of course, you need to 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.880 worry about men's backs. But then I started to realize 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.240 the health of both the man and the woman is 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.640 at stake in this scenario, the man's back and the 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.320 woman's injuries and long term health problems that come from 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.960 eating disorders. Telling the woman to lose weight is prioritizing 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.680 the man's health. Then you realize, what if we did 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.640 value the health of the women as much as we 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:02.800 value the health of the men. 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.280 The short term mental health, the long term employment prospects, 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:12.360 the long term physical health. Shit, what if we said, okay, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.240 so don't lift her, we'll choreograph something different, and you 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.680 won't lift her, and she'll get to be the size 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:20.880 and wait that she is and still have a job. 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.880 I mean, when you actually think about it, guys, it's 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.960 not rocket science. It's just a question of deciding, like 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.320 what do we value and what are we willing to 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:35.200 change in order to actually act on those values. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.920 I was surprised reading your book about some of the 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:48.120 physical effects of dancing on young bodies. I mean, I 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:53.520 really it was like, Oh, what. 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.000 What I learned researching the book that I never learned 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.400 is that once you stretch a ligament, it never contracts 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.720 back like a muscle. A muscle you can stretch and 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.080 it you can return to its old shape. Ligaments can't 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.200 do that. And you know so many of the places 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:14.520 that we stretch as dances with stretching ligaments, and you 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.160 know you stretch that out at seven eight, it's never 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:17.960 going back. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:19.800 And why does that matter? 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.520 It matters because you won't be a dancer forever, and 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:28.760 unless you maintain the strength to match that flexibility, you're 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.440 going to have real instability and real problems. 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.960 Starting so young. As part of the problem, the physical 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.280 therapists Chloe interviewed said young kids should be stretching less. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.520 Young dancers working on their turnout can change the way 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.320 their bones grow because of twisting in their growth plates. 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.200 There should be much less of an emphasis on developing 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.760 an extreme flexibility. There's no reason for an eight year 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.880 old to be doing oversplits Beyond injury. Young dancers can 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.040 have malnutrition because of their eating habits, even if they 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.359 don't have a diagnosable eating disorder. Malnutrition might affect their 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.919 brain development. It can lead to hormonal changes and lower 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:09.199 bone density in kids who are still developing. That can 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.359 make them more vulnerable to broken bones and ascrirporosis later 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:18.399 in life. I also think that kids have to be 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:23.639 both told and shown that their pain and their discomfort 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.960 will be taken seriously. What they've learned is that they 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:32.040 will be rewarded for ignoring their own instincts and their 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:38.399 own experience of their own body. Like I'm not disregarding 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.880 the traditions. I'm not saying we should junk them. I'm 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:46.000 saying that we can do some things differently. All we 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.200 have to do is be a little bit irreverent and 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.399 being like, okay, so we change it. So what one 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.680 of the physical therapists I talked to said, we should 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.919 not be putting girls on point until they're fifteen, to 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:58.679 which a lot of people in the valley were like, oh, 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.760 that would fundamentally change and when people could stop their 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:09.040 careers and okay, and so like change it. See what happens. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.240 I mean, I don't think it can be worse the 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.600 what we have now, which is like permanent skeletal and 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.520 ligament damage in twelve and thirteen and fourteen year olds. 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.479 Chloe says maybe dancers could have longer careers if they 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:23.920 had fewer injuries as kids. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.200 And I would say it requires a certain level of irreverence. 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:34.520 And ballet breeds reverence, reverence for tradition, reverence for authority. 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.800 It just breeds reverence. Let's be a little irreverent and 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:39.760 see what happens. 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.840 Literally, at the end of every class you have reverence. 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.280 You know, it's like literally reverence is built into the 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:49.120 class structure. 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.200 That's such a good point. I'm annoyed that I didn't 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.720 notice that it's like right there, bowing and the curtsy. 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:57.000 It's right there. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.080 At the end of every class. It's tradition for students 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.960 to do a final slow dance. I always loved this 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.760 part of class. How it ends beautiful and slow, just 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:14.400 simple expression the center of the dance is a bow 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.520 to the mirror where the audience would be. Then everyone 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.840 curtsies to the teacher. It's called reverence. 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:30.879 And it's also a reinforcement of authority and of the hierarchy, 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.280 bowing and curtsying to the teacher. And it's just a 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.400 to me, it feels like a reminder that this art 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.200 form has some very strange rules. 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.040 Ballet has some strange rules, but it seems hard for 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.159 teachers to break free from them. Maybe it's because we 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.439 look to our predecessors, to the figures we admire, we 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.760 mimic what they did, and in the case of Americans 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:13.439 in ballet, we often look to balancing. What are some 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.600 of the main effects of balancing that you see in 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:18.639 the world of ballet? 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:19.960 What comes to mind? 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:22.639 The first thing I'll say is that he left us 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:29.000 some truly fantastic choreography, really and truly against my best, 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.840 strongest desires. Some of my favorite ballets Stow Balancing, ballets, 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:41.760 Jules is spectacular, Sarahnad is beautiful, Which is why when 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.119 people asked me after the book came out, are you 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.679 trying to cancel balancing? And I was like, even if 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.880 I wanted to How would I do that? How does 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.000 one even? How do you? You can't? 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.000 He's you know, in the aa, in the water, in 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:07.400 the soil, he's like, he's The ecosystem of ballet is 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:14.679 sort of suffused with this and shaped by this, And. 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:14.760 Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't know where to begin. 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:17.120 No God, but balancing. 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.439 A lot of people call balancing a genius. To me, 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.760 that word is charged. It's hard for me to hear 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.119 it without bristling. Teresa Ruth Howard says, we need to 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:35.639 think about who we give that label to. 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:43.760 It's always been interesting to me how we assign the 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:48.000 moniker of genius to balanching, which I think he is, 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.560 But I find it interesting that the same title is 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:54.000 not applied to Arthur Mitchell. 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.760 Arthur Mitchell the founder of Dance Theater of Harlem. After 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.000 Mitchell danced in Balancing Company, he went back to his 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.399 community in Harlem to teach ballet. Then he started a 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:06.200 ballet company. 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.840 Arthur Mitchell may not be a choreographic genius, but I 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:12.959 think that where his genius lay is in the idea 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:18.439 that he created an organization that really challenged the field 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:22.679 of ballet itself, who it belonged to. He created a 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:27.840 new idea of what American ballet was and what it 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:28.399 looked like. 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.320 Theresa has noticed that Arthur Mitchell often gets criticized for 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.840 a leadership style. She thinks he learned from Balannging. 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.480 He was cut from the fabric of balancing that was 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:42.760 his model. He was very demanding, he demanded respect. But 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.880 he's a black man, he oftentimes gets dare I say, 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:54.800 villified for those same characteristics. So Arthur Mitchell is creating 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.400 the same culture as a balancing in his own context, 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:04.400 but it's perceived much differently than balancing. We don't call 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:05.280 them a genius. 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:09.040 There are so many people who do great things who 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.760 aren't called geniuses, and people who never get to develop 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:17.200 their genius because of norms, expectations, barriers, who's given opportunities 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:20.359 and resources. I also hardly ever hear the term applied 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.600 to women. I'd be happy to throw out the label 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:28.160 genius altogether, precisely because of who it leaves out. People 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.960 use the word genius like it's a fact, when really, 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.800 when you're talking about art, it's an opinion. In a way, 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:38.719 it's so weird genius is discussed is this inherent trait 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:42.000 you are a genius or you're not. We like to 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:46.399 bestow it upon people. Maybe it's a comfort. It feels 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:49.680 good to think somebody knows better, someone can lead me. 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.280 Once you've been dubbed a genius, I think there are 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:56.400 fewer checks on the choices you make. Even your art 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.639 is viewed with less scrutiny. You can damage others in 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:02.400 the name of your art without as much critique. It's 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.720 seen as worth it. Those sacrifices are worth it for 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:10.000 the output. When you hear someone as a genius, you 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:14.600 feel this magic. You fall in line. 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:18.320 I think if you think about, you know, what kind 0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:20.399 of role model do you want balanching to be for 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.800 people who are going to be the future of ballet. 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:28.199 Do you want him to be this godlike figure who 0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:31.159 had everything figured out and had all the answers, and 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:35.080 you had to obey and believe him and do what 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:37.800 he said, and if you did that, everything would be 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:38.320 all right. 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:42.159 Jim Steichens the author who studied balancing's early years in 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.960 the US, and like Chloe, he sees how balancing is 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:48.000 viewed in an almost religious way. 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.000 I don't think we want those kind of leaders anymore, 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.520 you know, I think those kind of leaders are what 0:25:54.920 --> 0:26:01.200 we are discovering create these toxic environments in ballet. And 0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:05.680 so if we can think of Balanchin in a more 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:12.280 down to earth humane way and not have this myth 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:17.160 of the lone male white genius, right, if we can 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:22.320 think about art as this collaborative enterprise that takes all 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:24.760 these people, I think that's where it really makes a difference. 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:28.840 This reminded me of something I noticed among dancers trained 0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:32.720 in Balanchine's lineage. Even the dancers who never worked directly 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:36.240 with balancing know all these beautiful little stories about him, 0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:39.840 anecdotes that once helped them learn the choreography or that 0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:43.960 emphasize his genius, but other than that, they felt like 0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:45.520 they knew hardly anything about him. 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:51.440 When you're in the Balanchine system, he's like the unspoken 0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:55.720 for lack of far better term, god. It was ingrained 0:26:55.720 --> 0:26:58.120 in our brains to respect and idolize him. 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:01.560 Catherine Morgan says that I'm like with a lot of choreographers, 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:05.439