1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: You started your book in the classroom. Why was that. 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 2: The vast majority of people who have ballet in their 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 2: lives will spend the vast majority of their time in 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 2: the classroom. You are learning how to be a student, 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 2: You're learning how to communicate your ideas or not, and 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: you're absorbing all kinds of lessons about your place in 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: the world and how you are or are not valued 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: simply by who the teacher pays attention to, how the 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: classroom is structured. 10 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: When I think about what it felt like to go 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: to ballet class every day as a kid, it feels routine. 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of my childhood in the ballet classroom. 13 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: A big room with a high ceiling, old crown molding, 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: tall pillars, big mirrors on one side, a piano in 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: the corner where the Russian pianist played, the long wooden 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: bar that lined the wall. Our point shoes clip clopped 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: and echoed. 18 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 3: Every day. 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: I'd pin up my hair and tape up my toes. 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: I'd walk in, put down my water bottle to save 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: my favorite spot at the bar. The point shoes smelt 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: like satin, sweat and sweet glue. I might chat with 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: my friends while I stretched, but mostly I was silent 24 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: until class began. I liked the quiet, the focus, the preparation, 25 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: and of course once class started, I didn't talk at all. 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: It was a daily practice that I didn't give much thought. 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: That wasn't until I started to read Chloe Angel's book 28 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Turning Point, How a new generation of dancers is saving 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: ballet from itself. Chloe interviewed one hundred people to analyze 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: ballet culture today. When I read it, I got to 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: this section about ballet's hidden curriculum, the things children learn 32 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: by accident, the unintended lessons they pick up in the classroom. 33 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: I underlined line after line Chloe wrote, in this hidden curriculum, 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: the ideal ballet dancer is silent, observant, and obedient. The 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: ideal dancer should also be pleasing and pleased, her face 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: never conveying how much pain she's in. I wrote in 37 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: the margins, realizing how this has affected me. When I 38 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: was reading that part of your book about the hidden curriculum, 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: It's like this light bulb went off, This realization like 40 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: donned in my brain and I just thought, my gosh, 41 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: like how much of my personality and how much of 42 00:02:53,200 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: my life has been molded by spending every day in 43 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: a ballet class as a kid. 44 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 4: It just like. 45 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: Really got me questioning all kinds of things about myself. 46 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Did you have that experience? 47 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm not very good at ballet, Like, I'm just not. 48 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 2: About five years ago, I was talking to my therapist 49 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: about why that bothered me so much that I wasn't 50 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: good both actually and fictionally at ballet, and I realized 51 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: that it was because it felt like failing at a 52 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: very particular kind of femininity that I had wanted to 53 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: succeed at since I was very, very small. And one 54 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: of the things that you learn in ballet is what 55 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: a good woman looks like, how you're supposed to look, 56 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: how you're supposed to move, how you're supposed to behave, 57 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: how you're supposed tolerate pain, how you're supposed to conceal labor, 58 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: who you're supposed to obey, who you get to have 59 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: power over. You learn all that in the ballet studio. 60 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: But the reward for all that is accomplishing this very 61 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: particular kind of femininity. I spent so much of my 62 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: youth looking up to the women who had done it 63 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: and wanting to be like them, And I didn't do it, 64 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 2: didn't achieve it, and that disappointment is really profound, not 65 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 2: just because it feels like failing at ballet, because it 66 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: feels like failing at womanhood. 67 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: I think it's so hard to get over ballet because 68 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: the lessons start early in the ballet classroom and they're 69 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: folded into something otherworldly, something deeply beautiful. It's like Chloe 70 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: once said to. 71 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: Me, that shit stays with you forever. 72 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: For my heart, podcasts and Rococoa punch. This is the 73 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: turning room of mirrors. I'm Erica Lance, Part ten Reverence. 74 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: I think ballet in a lot of ways benefits from 75 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: the perception that it is a world apart, that it's 76 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: separate from the real world, that it doesn't have to 77 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: play by the rules of the real world. But it isn't, 78 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 2: and it does. It's just a workplace. It's the real world. 79 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 2: It's not separate from the real world. 80 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: In the classroom, teachers drilled us on the same steps 81 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: over and over. They yelled above the music while we danced, 82 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: shouted corrections things we had to change. They reminded us 83 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: to smile, something you need to train yourself to be 84 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: able to do when you perform I remember one time 85 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: a girl in my class just couldn't get the steps. 86 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: The teacher had her do them solo across the floor 87 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: while we all watched in the corner. She started to cry, 88 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: but the teacher kept having her comeback and start again. 89 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: We were trained to make impossible things look easy, and 90 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: I became attached to the facade of perfection. 91 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: I think about the suffering that we accept and the 92 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: innovation that we don't pursue because we're so attached to 93 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: ideas about tradition and suffering. I remember very distinctly sitting 94 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: in the audience of a New York City ballet performance 95 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 2: and thinking, this is all just a really great metaphor 96 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: for womanhood. You're working incredibly hard to make this thing 97 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: look beautiful, and you're expected to conceal all of the 98 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: work that goes into that. And in fact, if you 99 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: show the work, if people know how hard you're working 100 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: to make this perfect, flawless, ethereal, highly feminine thing, you've failed. 101 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: Contrast that with a lot of the activities that my 102 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: men friends and peers were either playing or watching. You're 103 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: allowed to show the work. You know, if you get 104 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: sacked in football, you're allowed to grimace. In fact, in 105 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: European football you were encouraged to let people know how 106 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: much it had. You actually get rewarded for flopping on 107 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: the ground and making a scene and showing the work. 108 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: But in this high per feminine activity, you have to 109 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: conceal all the pain. You have to conceal all the work. 110 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: And in fact, I think that the gap between what 111 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: you see on stage as an audience member and what 112 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: you know the dancer is most likely experiencing that duality 113 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: and that contradiction is part of the appeal of ballet. 114 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: It's part of the mystique of ballet, which is profoundly 115 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: messed up. 116 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good point too, Like people do 117 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: know that points shows are incredibly painful, and people would 118 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: ask me that when they learned I was dancing on 119 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: point and want to hear about my feet and yeah, 120 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: what do your feet look like? Are they all messed up? 121 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: And something that I think people should really sit with 122 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: and think, should we really be applauding people for being 123 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: able to conceal their pain as well as they do? 124 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: Is that really a skill that we want young people, 125 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: and particularly young women and girls to be cultivating and perfecting. 126 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: And the other place where it really felt like a 127 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: metaphor for womanhood was that, you know, you think of 128 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: a balid answer, you think of a woman. But in 129 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: most of the professional ballet world, at least men are 130 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: in charge. Meanwhile, girls out number of boys in ballet 131 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: classes twenty to one. And you know, the woman is 132 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: the icon, and she's the person you look at on stage, 133 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 2: but behind the scenes controlling the levels of powers omen. 134 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: Now, boys in ballet do not have it easy. They 135 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: might deal with stigma, terrible bullying or homophobia, a pressure 136 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: to be more quote unquote masculine, But in the classroom, 137 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: boys hold a special place. 138 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: You know, there are all these to try and get 139 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: more boys into ballet. There's a chronic shortage of boys 140 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: in ballet. For most of them, they don't want to 141 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: be there. They have to be cajoled into going and 142 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: bribed into staying, either because they're given scholarships or they're 143 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: held to a lower standard of behavior and talent than 144 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: girls are. Lots of men that I interviewed said that 145 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 2: their teachers had put off the transition from shorts to 146 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: tights for as long as they possibly can because they 147 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: didn't want to scare the boys out of ballet. Meanwhile, 148 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: the girls have been wearing heavily circumscribed attire to ballet 149 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: since they were three, and there are no exceptions. If 150 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: you don't feel comfortable in the leathart and the tips 151 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: doesn't matter. If you don't want to do it, there 152 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: are ten other girls who do. And so ballet culture 153 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: in general bends over backwards to get boys into ballet, 154 00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: to keep boys into ballet. One artistic director told me 155 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: that boys in ballet are treated like golden princes or 156 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: like little princes. They're treated like they're special and better 157 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 2: than girls, and the girls see that and the boys 158 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: internalize it, and so I don't think we should be 159 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: surprised that when those boys grow up and become professional 160 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: dancers and enter a company that is run by a 161 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: man with unquestioned power, that they start looking around and thinking, 162 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: my behavior doesn't have any negative consequences. These women are disposable. 163 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: I am special and irreplaceable. And a lot of girls 164 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: and young women in ballet are trained to be quiet 165 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: and obedient and compliant, and to tolerate pain and discomfort 166 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: and things that cross boundaries. 167 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: Chloe Angel says she realized while she worked on her 168 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: book that sometimes she'd go back to this old way 169 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: of thinking of seeing herself and the world. 170 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: I started calling it ballet brain because it would happen 171 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: a lot. And I really noticed when I started observing 172 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: ballet classes for field work and for reporting, was that 173 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: I could not take my eyes off the teacher. I 174 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: was at a local dance studio in my town of Carlville, Iowa, 175 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: and instead of looking out at these young dances in 176 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: a pre point class, I just kept watching the teacher 177 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: when I was supposed to be reporting on these girls 178 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: and their transition from flat to point. And I just 179 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: remember noticing that about myself and thinking, oh boy, it's 180 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: really in me, because that's the other point of reference 181 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: as you're constantly checking the teacher, either because they are 182 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 2: demonstrating an exercise or because you're checking you know, are 183 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 2: they watching me? Do they like what they see? Do 184 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: they not like what they see? Am I worthless? 185 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 5: Today? 186 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 2: It's really in me in ways that I am aware 187 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: of and also ways that I'm not aware of yet. 188 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: And I was very fortunate to be living with someone 189 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: and having my book edited by someone who didn't grow 190 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: up in ballet and who didn't come to it with 191 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 2: a lot of the assumptions and sort of taken for 192 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: granted ideas that I did. And so having to explain 193 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: some of these concepts, especially the more egregious ones, to 194 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 2: non ballet people, was really easy to see, like, oh, 195 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: I got a bad case of ballet brain on that one. 196 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: Do you remember some other instances like that moment in 197 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: the studio when you were like, wait a minute, I'm 198 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: doing X or I'm assuming why. 199 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: An artistic director of an American ballet company told me 200 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: about the handful of times when he's decided to not 201 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: renew a contract of a dancer who he didn't think 202 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: was in good enough shape, was too fad, And he 203 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: explained it to me that, you know, they do everything 204 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: they can to make sure their dancers are healthy, and 205 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: they really try and to support them in getting into shape, 206 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: which again is a euphemism for skinny, but if they're not, 207 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 2: in his words, if the dancer is not willing to 208 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: put in the work, then he has to think about, 209 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: you know, the long term spinal health of the men 210 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: who are lifting them. And he said something to me like, 211 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: my back remembers every dancer I ever lifted, and I 212 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: finished the interview and I was like, yeah, I mean, look, 213 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: that's not ideal, but I get it. It makes sense 214 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: to me. And I walked down into my kitchen and 215 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: I recounted a lot of the interaction to my then fiance, 216 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: who did not rub in ballet, knew basically nothing about 217 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: ballet until he started dating me, and he was like, yeah, 218 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: that sounds pretty messed up. My instinct was to defend 219 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: it and to saying no, this is why it has 220 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: to be this way. 221 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: That was my reaction too. Of course, you need to 222 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: worry about men's backs. But then I started to realize 223 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: the health of both the man and the woman is 224 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: at stake in this scenario, the man's back and the 225 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: woman's injuries and long term health problems that come from 226 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: eating disorders. Telling the woman to lose weight is prioritizing 227 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: the man's health. Then you realize, what if we did 228 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: value the health of the women as much as we 229 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: value the health of the men. 230 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: The short term mental health, the long term employment prospects, 231 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: the long term physical health. Shit, what if we said, okay, 232 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: so don't lift her, we'll choreograph something different, and you 233 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: won't lift her, and she'll get to be the size 234 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: and wait that she is and still have a job. 235 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: I mean, when you actually think about it, guys, it's 236 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: not rocket science. It's just a question of deciding, like 237 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: what do we value and what are we willing to 238 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: change in order to actually act on those values. 239 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: I was surprised reading your book about some of the 240 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: physical effects of dancing on young bodies. I mean, I 241 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: really it was like, Oh, what. 242 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: What I learned researching the book that I never learned 243 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: is that once you stretch a ligament, it never contracts 244 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: back like a muscle. A muscle you can stretch and 245 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: it you can return to its old shape. Ligaments can't 246 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: do that. And you know so many of the places 247 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: that we stretch as dances with stretching ligaments, and you 248 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: know you stretch that out at seven eight, it's never 249 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: going back. 250 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: And why does that matter? 251 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: It matters because you won't be a dancer forever, and 252 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: unless you maintain the strength to match that flexibility, you're 253 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: going to have real instability and real problems. 254 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: Starting so young. As part of the problem, the physical 255 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: therapists Chloe interviewed said young kids should be stretching less. 256 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: Young dancers working on their turnout can change the way 257 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: their bones grow because of twisting in their growth plates. 258 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: There should be much less of an emphasis on developing 259 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: an extreme flexibility. There's no reason for an eight year 260 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 2: old to be doing oversplits Beyond injury. Young dancers can 261 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: have malnutrition because of their eating habits, even if they 262 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: don't have a diagnosable eating disorder. Malnutrition might affect their 263 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: brain development. It can lead to hormonal changes and lower 264 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: bone density in kids who are still developing. That can 265 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: make them more vulnerable to broken bones and ascrirporosis later 266 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: in life. I also think that kids have to be 267 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: both told and shown that their pain and their discomfort 268 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: will be taken seriously. What they've learned is that they 269 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: will be rewarded for ignoring their own instincts and their 270 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 2: own experience of their own body. Like I'm not disregarding 271 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: the traditions. I'm not saying we should junk them. I'm 272 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: saying that we can do some things differently. All we 273 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: have to do is be a little bit irreverent and 274 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: being like, okay, so we change it. So what one 275 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: of the physical therapists I talked to said, we should 276 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 2: not be putting girls on point until they're fifteen, to 277 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 2: which a lot of people in the valley were like, oh, 278 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: that would fundamentally change and when people could stop their 279 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: careers and okay, and so like change it. See what happens. 280 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think it can be worse the 281 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: what we have now, which is like permanent skeletal and 282 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: ligament damage in twelve and thirteen and fourteen year olds. 283 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 1: Chloe says maybe dancers could have longer careers if they 284 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: had fewer injuries as kids. 285 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 2: And I would say it requires a certain level of irreverence. 286 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: And ballet breeds reverence, reverence for tradition, reverence for authority. 287 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: It just breeds reverence. Let's be a little irreverent and 288 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: see what happens. 289 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: Literally, at the end of every class you have reverence. 290 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: You know, it's like literally reverence is built into the 291 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: class structure. 292 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: That's such a good point. I'm annoyed that I didn't 293 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: notice that it's like right there, bowing and the curtsy. 294 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 5: It's right there. 295 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: At the end of every class. It's tradition for students 296 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: to do a final slow dance. I always loved this 297 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: part of class. How it ends beautiful and slow, just 298 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: simple expression the center of the dance is a bow 299 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: to the mirror where the audience would be. Then everyone 300 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: curtsies to the teacher. It's called reverence. 301 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: And it's also a reinforcement of authority and of the hierarchy, 302 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: bowing and curtsying to the teacher. And it's just a 303 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: to me, it feels like a reminder that this art 304 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 2: form has some very strange rules. 305 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: Ballet has some strange rules, but it seems hard for 306 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: teachers to break free from them. Maybe it's because we 307 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: look to our predecessors, to the figures we admire, we 308 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: mimic what they did, and in the case of Americans 309 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: in ballet, we often look to balancing. What are some 310 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: of the main effects of balancing that you see in 311 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: the world of ballet? 312 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 4: What comes to mind? 313 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: The first thing I'll say is that he left us 314 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: some truly fantastic choreography, really and truly against my best, 315 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: strongest desires. Some of my favorite ballets Stow Balancing, ballets, 316 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: Jules is spectacular, Sarahnad is beautiful, Which is why when 317 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 2: people asked me after the book came out, are you 318 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 2: trying to cancel balancing? And I was like, even if 319 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 2: I wanted to How would I do that? How does 320 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: one even? How do you? You can't? 321 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 6: He's you know, in the aa, in the water, in 322 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 6: the soil, he's like, he's The ecosystem of ballet is 323 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 6: sort of suffused with this and shaped by this, And. 324 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't know where to begin. 325 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 2: No God, but balancing. 326 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: A lot of people call balancing a genius. To me, 327 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: that word is charged. It's hard for me to hear 328 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: it without bristling. Teresa Ruth Howard says, we need to 329 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: think about who we give that label to. 330 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: It's always been interesting to me how we assign the 331 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: moniker of genius to balanching, which I think he is, 332 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: But I find it interesting that the same title is 333 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 3: not applied to Arthur Mitchell. 334 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: Arthur Mitchell the founder of Dance Theater of Harlem. After 335 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: Mitchell danced in Balancing Company, he went back to his 336 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: community in Harlem to teach ballet. Then he started a 337 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: ballet company. 338 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 3: Arthur Mitchell may not be a choreographic genius, but I 339 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 3: think that where his genius lay is in the idea 340 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 3: that he created an organization that really challenged the field 341 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 3: of ballet itself, who it belonged to. He created a 342 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 3: new idea of what American ballet was and what it 343 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 3: looked like. 344 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: Theresa has noticed that Arthur Mitchell often gets criticized for 345 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: a leadership style. She thinks he learned from Balannging. 346 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 3: He was cut from the fabric of balancing that was 347 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 3: his model. He was very demanding, he demanded respect. But 348 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 3: he's a black man, he oftentimes gets dare I say, 349 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: villified for those same characteristics. So Arthur Mitchell is creating 350 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: the same culture as a balancing in his own context, 351 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 3: but it's perceived much differently than balancing. We don't call 352 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 3: them a genius. 353 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: There are so many people who do great things who 354 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: aren't called geniuses, and people who never get to develop 355 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: their genius because of norms, expectations, barriers, who's given opportunities 356 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: and resources. I also hardly ever hear the term applied 357 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: to women. I'd be happy to throw out the label 358 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: genius altogether, precisely because of who it leaves out. People 359 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: use the word genius like it's a fact, when really, 360 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: when you're talking about art, it's an opinion. In a way, 361 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 1: it's so weird genius is discussed is this inherent trait 362 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: you are a genius or you're not. We like to 363 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: bestow it upon people. Maybe it's a comfort. It feels 364 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: good to think somebody knows better, someone can lead me. 365 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: Once you've been dubbed a genius, I think there are 366 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: fewer checks on the choices you make. Even your art 367 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: is viewed with less scrutiny. You can damage others in 368 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: the name of your art without as much critique. It's 369 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: seen as worth it. Those sacrifices are worth it for 370 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: the output. When you hear someone as a genius, you 371 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: feel this magic. You fall in line. 372 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 5: I think if you think about, you know, what kind 373 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 5: of role model do you want balanching to be for 374 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 5: people who are going to be the future of ballet. 375 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 5: Do you want him to be this godlike figure who 376 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 5: had everything figured out and had all the answers, and 377 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 5: you had to obey and believe him and do what 378 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 5: he said, and if you did that, everything would be 379 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 5: all right. 380 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: Jim Steichens the author who studied balancing's early years in 381 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: the US, and like Chloe, he sees how balancing is 382 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: viewed in an almost religious way. 383 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 5: I don't think we want those kind of leaders anymore, 384 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 5: you know, I think those kind of leaders are what 385 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 5: we are discovering create these toxic environments in ballet. And 386 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 5: so if we can think of Balanchin in a more 387 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 5: down to earth humane way and not have this myth 388 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 5: of the lone male white genius, right, if we can 389 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 5: think about art as this collaborative enterprise that takes all 390 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 5: these people, I think that's where it really makes a difference. 391 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: This reminded me of something I noticed among dancers trained 392 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: in Balanchine's lineage. Even the dancers who never worked directly 393 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: with balancing know all these beautiful little stories about him, 394 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: anecdotes that once helped them learn the choreography or that 395 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: emphasize his genius, but other than that, they felt like 396 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: they knew hardly anything about him. 397 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 7: When you're in the Balanchine system, he's like the unspoken 398 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 7: for lack of far better term, god. It was ingrained 399 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 7: in our brains to respect and idolize him. 400 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: Catherine Morgan says that I'm like with a lot of choreographers, 401 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: Balanching is never called George. Everyone calls him by his 402 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: last name Balanchine or mister Balanchine or mister b. 403 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 7: He was amazing he's a genius, blah blah blah, and 404 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 7: you don't think about it. 405 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: Because it's not talked about it being. 406 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 7: Like the extreme body expectations, or the darker sides of him, 407 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 7: any of that. It's just it's not talked about, so 408 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 7: I don't actually know. 409 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: So a lot never gets excavated. Dancers don't get to 410 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: see the source of their own culture, the culture they 411 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: swim in every day. In conversations with dancers, I've also 412 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: sometimes noticed this pressure never to speak ill of balancing. 413 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: Some of that pressure comes from love gratitude. One former 414 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 1: dancer said, he gave me my life. It feels like 415 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: airing dirty laundry when you're talking about someone you see 416 00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: as your father, your mother, your everything. I think some 417 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: pressure also stems from fear. There's a strong perception that 418 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: if you speak ill of balancing, even now, it will 419 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: harm your career. And then there's this fear that admitting 420 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: to flaws in the past will tarnish an art form 421 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: that already feels fragile. They want the art form to survive, 422 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: and I do too, But in my mind, not confronting 423 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: the darker sides is what could make ballet cave in 424 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: on itself. 425 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 3: We're mythologizing trauma for the art. 426 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: Theresa Ruth Howard sometimes gets frustrated by how dancers remember balancing. 427 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: It's like his memory gets mingled with these romanticized clouds 428 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: of perfume. 429 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 3: They're not really digging underneath what that did to them, 430 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: what that culture did to them. When you hear the 431 00:28:54,600 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 3: dancers speak what they sacrifice, the human sacrifice that they actually, 432 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: like French, press down to not feel or think about 433 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: what we make okay in our minds so that we 434 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 3: can dance, so we can just dance, so we can 435 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 3: be seen as a dancer. That is generational trauma, and 436 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 3: it is something that is folded into the legacy and 437 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 3: lift it up in a way. 438 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: When you say generational trauma, do you feel like that's 439 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: affecting ballet students today like children today? 440 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think that the way that it shows up, 441 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 3: the way that it presents is in the way that 442 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 3: we talk about and lionize Balanchin, because he held women 443 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: in a very particular space. They are the flowers and 444 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 3: the men are the gardeners that pick the flowers. This 445 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 3: is problematic, and so I'm not saying that they're using 446 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: that language but it is a behave sort of way 447 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: of being. There can be values around the body, there 448 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 3: can be values around behavior. What is the appropriate way 449 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 3: to behave as a dancer, And so you don't have 450 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: to speak it. We behave these things, We behave our values. 451 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: Imagine that ballet is an old English manor house. It's 452 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: full of rooms, and in every room people are dancing. 453 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: That's how choreographer and scholar Atashola Acinley talks about ballet, 454 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: and I can't stop thinking about it. They say, one 455 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: room in the manor house is the Grand Hall. Everyone 456 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: looks at the Grand Hall. It's full of an audience. 457 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: It's where the attention is, the buzz and the lights. 458 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: The Grand Hall is where people like Balanchine live, or 459 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: people who've been permitted to enter Balancine's world. But ballet 460 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: is vast. There are many rooms in the manor house. 461 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 1: There are many rooms of ballet. So many people are 462 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: dancing it in their own companies, their own choreography, their 463 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: own way. We've been looking at just this one room, 464 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: its privilege and its restrictions, because this room is still 465 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: allowed to dictate how dancers should be. If you're in 466 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: that grand hall, that one room can feel like your 467 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: whole world. The thing is that someday you're going to 468 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: have to leave it. There's this saying that a dancer 469 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: dies twice. As a ballerina, from day one, you're always 470 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: counting down to your first death, the day you have 471 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: to retire from stage, leave the grand hall behind. 472 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 4: Oh. 473 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 8: I can't even begin to touch how rich that culture 474 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 8: is and was. 475 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: Stephanies A Land says her ballet self was hard to shed. 476 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 8: And there is an addiction to being on stage, to 477 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 8: having certain rhythms of what it takes to be on 478 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 8: stage and to be an elite athlete. There was a 479 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 8: ritual from six o'clock to eight o'clock of getting ready, 480 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 8: of getting primed of self talk and self preparation to 481 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 8: be a performer. I remember when I stopped, it did 482 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 8: take me about two years to come down from that pitch, 483 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 8: that energetic pitch of preparation physiologically literally physiological chemical. 484 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 9: When you finally do move on, there's a recovery period, 485 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 9: and I think the recovery period into the quote unquote 486 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 9: real world takes about ten years on average to function 487 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 9: in the normal world. 488 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: Wilhelmina Frankfurt says part of the adjustment is realizing how 489 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: abnormal your life has been. 490 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 9: For decades, people have been making decisions for you about you, 491 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 9: and your life has been determined by a daily schedule. 492 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 9: It's almost military in a way. You know, the bugle blows, 493 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 9: that's class. 494 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: There's this weird thing about the elite professional ballet world. 495 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: It's like time and age move differently than they do 496 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: for other people. On one hand, you have to grow 497 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: up fast. You're treated like an adult when you're just 498 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: a kid, and then you might become a professional dancer 499 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: at sixteen or seventeen. On the other hand, even years 500 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: after you enter the company, you aren't treated like an adult, 501 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: so many of your life decisions are in the hands 502 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: of the company. Members of the Court of Ballet are 503 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: often called kids. Coaches yell out to dancers in rehearsal. 504 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: Good girl, good girl. 505 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:35,919 Speaker 10: Your responses are somewhat thwarted and childlike, and you got 506 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 10: to catch up. 507 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 9: How do you get a job? And who are you? 508 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 4: I catch myself doing a thing that I to do 509 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 4: in the ballet that I have to like check and 510 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 4: recalibrate that I'm not actually in the theater, and that's 511 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 4: not how people do things here on the outside. 512 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: You may remember Sophie Flack danced with New York City Ballet, 513 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: and then in the economic downturn of two thousand and nine, 514 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: she was let go. To Sophie, it felt like being discarded, 515 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: like her body just filled a hole that could be 516 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: filled by someone else. She didn't want to keep dancing 517 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: after that, but the loss overwhelmed her. Without Ballet to 518 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: determine her every step in the world, she hardly knew 519 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: where to begin. Eventually, she decided the first step would 520 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: be education, to go to college. She picked Columbia. 521 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 4: When I went to Columbia, it felt like I just 522 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 4: exited a bunker. 523 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: At first, she felt superior. After all, most people in 524 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: her classes were teenagers. She was in her mid twenties, 525 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: and she'd been working this intense job at one of 526 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: the most elite art institutions in the world. 527 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 4: I kind of walked on to campus feeling like hot shit. 528 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 4: I came from City Ballet, like you just moved out 529 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 4: of your parents' house, you know, Like I had a life, 530 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 4: Like I'd had certain experiences. I felt worldly, had traveled. 531 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 4: So I went in being kind of snooty, and like 532 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 4: day one I was very humbled. I was like, Oh, 533 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 4: you're actually like crazy smart and I know nothing. I 534 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 4: was like, oh, okay, there is a whole world outside 535 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 4: of the theater. I didn't know. My mind was freaking 536 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 4: blown how little I knew, how much there was to learn. 537 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 4: And I was an expert at everything that happened in 538 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 4: the I knew it really well, and I understood the 539 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 4: ballet world, but I didn't understand what happened outside of 540 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 4: the ballet world. I don't know how to talk to 541 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 4: people really, or people of authority even how to talk 542 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 4: to them, because we didn't talk to our superiors at all. 543 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 4: I mean, it's literally like growing up in a terrarium, 544 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 4: like a glass enclosing that is self sustaining and you 545 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 4: don't need anything else but like the stuff within the terrarium. 546 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: Sophie started to realize this terrarium had grown around her 547 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: for years, starting way back when she was ten, eleven, twelve, 548 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: when she felt herself pulling away from the outside world 549 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: to focus on ballet. 550 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 4: I couldn't participate in a lot of social things after 551 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 4: school things, nor multildhood things, and I would sort of 552 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 4: reframe them in my head, like, oh, that's stupid like 553 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 4: I would put them down because I couldn't partake. I'd 554 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 4: tell myself, what I'm going to do is more important. 555 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 4: And that was like a coping technique that I developed 556 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 4: in my own head. Like even these friendships, these bonds 557 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 4: don't matter because who cares about children. No one's even 558 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 4: going to remember this, And I would just like really 559 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 4: sort of tear down all the things that I was 560 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 4: missing out on. But looking back and now that I 561 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 4: have my own children, the things that I missed out 562 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 4: on were extremely formative. And I'm kind of weird and 563 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 4: screwed up because I miss them. 564 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: What makes you say that? 565 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 4: I mean, I imagine a child separated from her peer 566 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 4: group to join a cult, and it's taught a different culture, 567 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 4: a different way of looking at things. Things like if 568 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 4: it's not uncomfortable, you're not doing it right. Being uncomfortable 569 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 4: is normal, you bury your feelings and you're never good enough. 570 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 4: I mean, these things are different than the things that 571 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 4: you're normally taught. I hope. I have two kids, and 572 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 4: a person's childhood is extremely important in importance a whole 573 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 4: rest of your life, your personality, how you see the world. 574 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 4: I spend so much time trying to learn everything I 575 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 4: was wrong. Those dumb things really matter, They're really important. 576 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 4: Even if the activity seems dumb, you're missing out on 577 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 4: experiences and memory. That she who people are and I 578 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 4: feel like him doing a lot of ketchup now and 579 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,919 Speaker 4: after I left the ballet world at twenty five, which 580 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 4: for me felt very young at the time, but now 581 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 4: that I'm on the outside, that was a long time. 582 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 4: That was twenty years in the ballet world that shaped 583 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 4: me a lot. 584 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: Sophie Flack says she had to unlearn ballet. She'd been 585 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: told that the skills she gained in the ballet classroom 586 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: would serve her for the rest of her life, but 587 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: she found they did the opposite. Sophie says she had 588 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: to learn that her well being mattered. 589 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 4: The biggest lesson in post ballet was actually recovering from 590 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 4: postpartum depression because I approached motherhood like I approached ballet, 591 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 4: with a lot of self sacrifice and for the betterment 592 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 4: of the cause of the art form, you know, abandoning 593 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 4: the self and it completely. As a new mom, I mean, 594 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 4: I might have had horrible postpartum anyway, but with that 595 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 4: approach and my hyper perfectionism, I really lost my mind. 596 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 4: I started to become a psychotic. This was like real 597 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 4: next level and I was having whatever suicidal ideation and 598 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,879 Speaker 4: there's more that I don't really want to share right now, 599 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 4: but it was very scary. And after I had a breakdown, 600 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 4: I started taking my mental health more seriously. I was like, Okay, 601 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 4: I need to relearn how to think. If I'm hungry, 602 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 4: I eat. If I'm tired, I rest. I mean, like 603 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 4: literally listening to my body and articulating my needs. I'm 604 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 4: still learning how to do that better, because there is 605 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 4: life after dance. 606 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, okay, stupid free. 607 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 8: Oh ouch. 608 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 4: Sounded like. 609 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 10: Well. 610 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: Sophie sits on the floor of her living room. Her 611 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,919 Speaker 1: daughter Eleanor climbs onto her back. Eleanor nestles her head 612 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: into her mother's neck with a mischievous smile. 613 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 4: Mom, yes, can we dance sticking? 614 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 8: Well? 615 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 4: Well, give, I think mostly I'm just gonna talk and 616 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 4: not dance. But if you wanted to dance, you could. 617 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 9: You could do that. 618 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 6: Wow. 619 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 4: I'm not really a dancing mood right now. I'm more 620 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 4: in a talking mood. 621 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 7: I'm eating it, I know with me. 622 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: Eleanor started a creative ballet class this year a room 623 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: of three and four year olds. When you're thinking back 624 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,720 Speaker 1: to your childhood being in something that you now sometimes 625 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: compare to entering a cult at a young age, how 626 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: do you feel about your daughter potentially starting to dance herself. 627 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,760 Speaker 4: I'm very conflicted. I mean, I'm conflicted about all the things, 628 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 4: Like you know, I I'm trying to recount as truthfully 629 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 4: as I can about all these things, but pretty much 630 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 4: everything I say has like another side to it. Really, 631 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 4: it's really hard to record a podcast about it because 632 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 4: I don't have enough time to like really say it fully. Actually, yeah, 633 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,839 Speaker 4: I always have this like flip side of like love 634 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 4: for this art forum, and it was a really great 635 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 4: way for me to live. It gave me something to 636 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 4: live for. 637 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 8: I don't really talk very much about ballet. I don't 638 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 8: have photos around me. It's the past life. It's a 639 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 8: past life, and it's woven into the cells. But I 640 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 8: don't wear it. It's not a badge. 641 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,840 Speaker 1: But Stephanie's land still feels ballet in her. There are 642 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: times that comes out in full force, Like just a 643 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: couple of years after she'd retired from the stage, she 644 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: was guest teaching at a local school of the Arts. 645 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 8: And I passed a room where somebody was rehearsing some 646 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 8: Chopin and a lot of the robins ballets had Chopin 647 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 8: on stage. 648 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: And something happened to Stephanie, something that would happen many 649 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,799 Speaker 1: times over the coming decades. The music took her back, 650 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: like a flashback, a sudden whiff of her past life 651 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: that reminded her how real it had been. 652 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 8: It's so disceral, and I was so jarred because I 653 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,760 Speaker 8: didn't know about this. It was literally like being flooded 654 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 8: and shifted back in time. 655 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 4: It was quite jarring. 656 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 8: Actually. Then it was for me sad because I was 657 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 8: still very close to having finished, and there were still 658 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 8: the parts of me that were like kind of like 659 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 8: the loose tooth before it falls out. I hear music 660 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 8: and it's instantly a ballet. I see the steps, I 661 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 8: see people doing it. I can actually feel the heat 662 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 8: of the stage lights and the warmth of the wings. 663 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 8: This morning, I was driving and the music for Diamonds 664 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 8: from Jewels came on and I started welling up driving 665 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 8: in the car listening to that, seeing Susanne Farrell and 666 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 8: Peter Martin's in front of my the screen of my 667 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 8: mind and thanking them. Be so grateful for having witnessed 668 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:05,919 Speaker 8: that and having that be part of a life. Every 669 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 8: time I hear a piece of music, something is evoked 670 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 8: and provoked, and the relationship to it is so deep, 671 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 8: and what gratitude for that. 672 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: We've been talking a lot about these dark sides of ballet? 673 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 4: Is it worth it? 674 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: Why ballet? 675 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 2: The feeling that you get as an audience member, which 676 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 2: is like complete awe at what humans can do when 677 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,919 Speaker 2: they work together in its best form, in its purest form. 678 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 2: You feel at home in your body when you dance, 679 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 2: and it's it's transcendent, like when everything goes right, when 680 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 2: everything lines up and. 681 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 4: You're like. 682 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 2: Spinning perfectly in a pirouet and you know you're going 683 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 2: to land it cleanly, and then you do. There's nothing 684 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 2: like it, right, nothing like it. You feel so at 685 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 2: home in your body and like that's not nothing, it's 686 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 2: really precious, it's really valuable. 687 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: My most recurring dream is a pirouet on point on point, 688 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: and I spin and I spin, I spin and I 689 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:49,879 Speaker 1: spin and I spin and I spin and I don't 690 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: stop spinning for a long time. It's something I could 691 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: never do in the real world. Or maybe anyone could do, 692 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: but just rotating, rotating, and then at the end of 693 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 1: the pirouet, I just stay balanced on point. I don't 694 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: come down. I just hover. Ugh. And it is that 695 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: feeling in your body that you don't get anywhere else. 696 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe it if it's like flying, 697 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 1: but it's the most beautiful feeling. I still remember what 698 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 1: that feels like. And so those dreams are so vivid. 699 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: Those are the types of dreams that I one hundred 700 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: percent think they're real. While I'm in the dream, I 701 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 1: feel that dream in my body more than any other dream. 702 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 9: That I have. 703 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I wake up and I realize it's 704 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 1: not it's not reality, but it's so glorious that it 705 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: is stuck with me all these years, and it keeps 706 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,320 Speaker 1: coming back to me even though I haven't done it 707 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: in so long. 708 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 2: And that is why ballet matters, Because you haven't done 709 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 2: it in over a decade, but it's still in you. 710 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 2: And so it matters that we get this right. If 711 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 2: it is going to stick with us forever, it matters 712 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:00,879 Speaker 2: that we get it right. 713 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: It matters that we get this right. This is something 714 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,520 Speaker 1: all ballet teachers know you need a strong foundation. You 715 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: need good technique. It's another lesson the classroom teaches us, 716 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: and it's one I think we shouldn't discard when it 717 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: comes to ballet. With bad technique, you can't keep up 718 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: with complicated steps. You're in trouble, a couple of flaws 719 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,719 Speaker 1: or placement issues, and you're dancing isn't safe. Even if 720 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 1: it looks beautiful years later, it'll lead to injury. The 721 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 1: thing is, it's really hard to retrain, it's hard to 722 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: get rid of bad habits dance. That's why when you 723 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: learn ballet, you start with the basics and you repeat 724 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: those basics every day for the rest of your dancing life. 725 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: First a plia, a knee bend, then the port de bras, 726 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: move your arms, and then tondu. You slide your leg 727 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: out so it's stretched and pointed. Once you tondu, you 728 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,360 Speaker 1: realize it's the base of most steps. Almost all ballet 729 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 1: steps are modified tondus. Tondus in different forms balancing understood this, 730 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: and he loved his tondus. He had his dancers drill them, 731 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: not just eight tondus, not sixteen, not thirty two, not 732 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 1: sixty four. They did hundreds At all speeds, front side back. 733 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: He'd prod them, saying, what are you saving it for 734 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:14,239 Speaker 1: a deer? Then he'd say faster. You drill until it's automatic, 735 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:21,240 Speaker 1: until it's etched neurologically in your brain. When culture is drilled, 736 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: culture becomes automatic too. We need to look at the 737 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: tandue of ballet culture, the foundation. If we don't address 738 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,879 Speaker 1: the problems there, we'll have injuries later on. And that's 739 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,240 Speaker 1: what's happened. There are people now being injured, being harmed 740 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 1: by dancing ballet, and that's why we have to confront 741 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: the past. It all builds on itself. Balancini is considered 742 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 1: a genius because he changed ballet. He pushed the boundaries 743 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,040 Speaker 1: of what was acceptable on stage to make ballet beautiful. 744 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,000 Speaker 1: We need change too, We need to take a risk. 745 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 1: That's how we make it better, That's how we keep 746 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 1: it alive. And we can't wait to make this change. 747 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: What are you saving for? 748 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 4: Dear? 749 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: The Turning is a production of Rocco, Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 750 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,600 Speaker 1: It's written and produced by Alan Lance Lesser and Me. 751 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 1: Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed 752 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,720 Speaker 1: by James Trout Jessica Carisa is our assistant producer. Andrea 753 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 1: Assuage is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. 754 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,120 Speaker 1: So many thanks to all of the people who helped 755 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 1: and supported us with this project, including Gretchen Gavitt, Jacob 756 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 1: Nicola and Theo Silber, Margaret Lambert, Kayla Reid Stella, Grizant, 757 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: Lisa Zegarmi, John Frishkoff, Zack Smith, Jacob Smith, Courtney Smith, Weezmore, 758 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 1: Erica Berger, Paul English, Betsy McMillan, Holly Palandro, Matt Silverman, 759 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: and Andrew Lesser. Special thanks to beth n Mcaluso, Kate Osborne, 760 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:35,320 Speaker 1: Christine Ragassa, Travis Dunlap, Elizabeth Wachtel, Brianna Hill, Simon Pullman, 761 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: Nancy Wolfe, Alison Canter, and the wonderful teams at Raccoa 762 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:51,000 Speaker 1: Punch and iHeart Podcasts for their support. Our executive producers 763 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,440 Speaker 1: are John Paratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, and 764 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:59,320 Speaker 1: Katrina Norvell and Nicki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. For photos 765 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,120 Speaker 1: and more details on the series, follow us on Instagram 766 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,440 Speaker 1: at Rococo Punch and you can reach out via email. 767 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:11,720 Speaker 1: The Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. I'm Rika Lance. 768 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:13,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.