1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Sherlock Holmes came up on the show this week. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: Although Grace Thomaston, who was called Mrs Sherlock Holmes, really 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: did not seem to be too fond of that nickname, 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: even though she didn't like it very much. The Sherlock 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Holmes name drops seems like a good excuse to pull 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: our episode about who the real Sherlock Holmes was. Pull 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: that out for Today's Saturday Classic. This episode is from 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: previous hosts Sarah and Deblina, and it originally came out 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: on novemb Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Sarah Dowdy and I'm Deblina chuker Boardy, 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: and today we're going to explore a mystery about one 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: of the most iconic mystery solvers out there, Sherlock Holmes. 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: Holmes being Scott Ash writer Arthur Conan Doyle's consulting detective, 15 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: the hawk Face super sleuth who has always been able 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: to somehow use his powers of deduction to solve mysteries 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: and always get the bad guys. He always knows what's 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: going on, even if he looks like he's in a 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: haze of opium or whatnot. I think it was cocaine, 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: but who who's counting of Cotton Doyle. He wasn't really 21 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the first to invent the modern detective story, but he 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: did introduce this kind of science of detailed observation and 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: classification into it, which, as we'll see later, has actually 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: some influence. It's had some influence on the field of forensics. Yeah. 25 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: But even if you haven't read any of his writing, 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: you probably know the character of Sherlock Holmes. I mean 27 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: he's in everything. You've probably been played Sherlock Holmes as 28 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: a kid like playing detective. But I mean there's mentions 29 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: in other literary works, like novels. There's that recent movie 30 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: starring Robert Downey Jr. There's even a new BBC television 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: series which I think it kind of modernizes the whole thing. Yeah, 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: if there's some controversy around these modern takes on homes, 33 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: some of the true sherlakeans, the fervent Sherlock Holmes fans, 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: don't really like the fact that in the new series 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: he's using cell phones and text messaging and so forth. 36 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: But you know, these are the times, and and this 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: is the homes that we have now. But even even 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: though Holmes is of such a big part of our 39 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: consciousness and such a big part of pop culture, a 40 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: lot of people probably couldn't tell you if he's real. 41 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: And that's a that's a big question that's out there. 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: And if you go on the Internet and you google 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: is Sherlock Holmes real, you'll find maybe some different opinions 44 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: about that. Some people think maybe he's based on a 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: real person, an actual detective who worked for Scotland Yard. 46 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: Some people think that he's based on Connon Doyle himself 47 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: or completely made up, or he could be just completely fiction. 48 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: And in fact he is fiction, but he was based 49 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: on an actual person. And that's what we're going to 50 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about today. But before we get 51 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: into that, let's take committed to take a closer look 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: at Doyle and what led him to his homes inspiration. Yeah. So, 53 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: Conan Doyle was born in May eighteen fifty nine in Edinburgh, Scotland. 54 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: He was the second of a huge family ten kids, 55 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: and his father had a lot of trouble in business 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: and life. He was a failed architect. He was an alcoholic, 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: but fortunately Conan Doyle's mother nurtured his love of history 58 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: and storytelling, helped him along, you know, helped develop his 59 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: imagination and inspired him to read Poe and Jules Byrne 60 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Swift. So he was a creative child, yea. 61 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: He got an artistic side through his mom. He continued 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: his education in England. He had some schooling there and 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: then he went to Austria for about a year or 64 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: so I think, before returning to Scotland to prepare for 65 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: entry into the University of Edinburgh's medical school, which is 66 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: another surprise I think for a lot of people that 67 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: he had a medical background. Yes, he had some medical 68 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: aspiration Jen's um and actually ended up getting his Bachelor 69 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: of Medicine and Master of Surgery qualifications in eighteen eighty 70 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: one and an m d in eighteen eighty five. He 71 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: even went on to have a sort of a semi 72 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: successful medical career. He I think he practiced for at 73 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: least ten years or so, so he didn't have to 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: be spending all his time writing detective fiction. Well, I 75 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: think that was what he wanted to be doing. He 76 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: was writing even while he was practicing as a doctor. 77 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: That's he started the Sherlock Holmes series at that time 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: started writing stories, so it was definitely there from the beginning. 79 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: But it was someone that he had met his second 80 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: year of medical school who really inspired this literary character 81 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: that Conan Doyle became so famous for, and that was 82 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: Dr Joseph Bell. Yeah. So Kennon Doyle clerked for this 83 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: doctor Bell in the Royal Infirmary and he he was 84 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: just sort of his assistant. You know, he interviewed new 85 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: patients before they went in to see the doctor. But 86 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: this is interesting part. Bell didn't really need that assistance 87 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: because it seemed like he always kind of knew what 88 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: was going on with his new patients, sometimes before he 89 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: even saw them. Yeah, it was kind of freaky, for 90 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: lack of a better word, would call it freaky. Conan 91 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: Doyle would take notes, diligently interview these patients they'd come in, 92 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: and his mentor, Dr Bell would somehow know what was 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: going on. These people were total strangers, new patients, he'd 94 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: never met them before, but he would be able to 95 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: say things like how they make their living, where they from, 96 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: even maybe where they'd been that day. And Conny was 97 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: really impressed by the skill. And that's why, as anyone 98 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: would be I would be. But it's interesting they're not 99 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: actually friends. And you might think, um, this impressionable young 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: Conan Doyle would try to build a relationship with this guy, 101 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: especially since he becomes such a major influence on his 102 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: character later. But yeah, they're they're not good buddies. And 103 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: Bell's journals, which he kept from the eighteen sixties until 104 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: his death, uh, there's no mention of Doyle, so you 105 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: know they must have He must have not had a 106 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: huge impression on the doctor. He would think. I mean, 107 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: I if I don't write in a journal, but if 108 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: I were to write in a journal, I'd probably write 109 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: about my best friends and the people who are a 110 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: big influence in my life. And he did not appear there. 111 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: That journal was actually on display at an exhibit that 112 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: the Royal College of Surgeons in Edinburgh has about Conan 113 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: Doyle and Bell and the real Sherlock Holmes. Still it's 114 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: a permanent display there, and he has that in some letters. 115 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: And so what they what we can ascertain from that 116 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: is that they weren't that close. But still Conan Doyle 117 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: must have been inspired by this skill, this like guessing 118 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: power that the doctor had. So that makes us wonder 119 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: How did the doctor do this? How is he able 120 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: to determine all of these minute details about someone's life 121 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: before he really talked to them. Hold that thought. We're 122 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: going to get into that a little more. First, a 123 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: little bit of background on Bell. He was born in 124 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty seven and he was born into really a 125 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: medical focused family. His dad, his uncle's were all well 126 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: known surgeons. They were all involved in the medical field, 127 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: so he kind of followed in their footsteps. He was 128 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: educated at the Academy and the University in Edinburgh and 129 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: practiced as a doctor in Scotland. He was described as 130 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: being a thin, wiry guy, had a high nose, acute face, 131 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: penetrating gray eyes, and a high discordant voice which sounds 132 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: like somebody else I can yep. It's true. A lot 133 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: of these features, like the nose especially, are thought to 134 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: be very homes like, and people say that Bell even 135 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: wore a cloaked coat in a deer stalker hat, which 136 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: which are homes trademarks. He even has the cost dumn on, 137 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: he even has the outfit. Yeah, and he's he's kind 138 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: of an interesting guy, not just the super focused doctor, 139 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: but he's an amateur poet and a bird watcher and 140 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: an aviad shooter when he's not busy with medicine and 141 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So he has these interesting hobbies, 142 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: I guess you'd say, but his main focus still is medicine, 143 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: and in his profession he did a lot of things 144 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: with note he started Scotland's first training course for nurses, 145 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: which was kind of a big deal, and agreed to 146 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: teach some of the first female medical students too, even 147 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: though that was pretty controversial at the time there was 148 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: a lot of prejudice against these women who wanted to 149 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: study medicine. He was also Queen Victoria's a personal physician 150 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: whenever she was in Scotland, which I find very interesting 151 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: and I swear Queen Victoria like makes an appearance in 152 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: almost every podcast she works. Yeah, she apparently checked out 153 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: his wards and liked what she saw and decided to 154 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: make him her personal doctor. So one of the things 155 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: he was best known for, besides all of these accolades 156 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: and positions of prominent was for teaching a particular method 157 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: for diagnosing patients. And we've alluded to that a little 158 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: bit before, with his experience and being able to identify 159 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: certain things about patients before even interviewing them. And basically 160 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: what this all comes down to is that he thought 161 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: it was important to make a study of people, both 162 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: in order to notice the small details that distinguished the 163 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: sick from the healthy, and also just to impress patients 164 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: with your knowledge of of them so that they'll put 165 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: their faith in you. Yeah, I mean it. It worked 166 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: for his assistant. You can imagine that it would work 167 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: for his patients pretty well too, definitely. And so he 168 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: told his students that a diagnosis rested on three things 169 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: observed carefully, did do shrewdly, and confirm with evidence. And 170 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: he put this into practice for them too. Yeah, we 171 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: have an example for you that is just kind of outrageous. 172 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 1: There's a woman walks in with a little child, and 173 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: the doctor immediately says, oh, I was your walk from 174 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: this small town in Fife? And did you have to 175 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: walk up the ever life row? And what do you 176 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: do with the other one? And are you still working 177 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: at the linoleum factory. Okay, that's a lot of really 178 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: specific personal question, very specific stuff. And this was all 179 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: without ever having met her before. This was their first encounter, 180 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: and and oh I shouldn't mentioned here that this is 181 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: all sort of our English translation from the Scottish vernacular 182 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: at the time, which I didn't think we should attempt 183 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: to pronounce. But maybe next time. Maybe next time, we'll 184 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: give that a try. After a few beers. But he 185 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: had never met her before, so how did he do this? 186 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: He quickly noticed small things about her. Her Fife accent, 187 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: that's how we recognized she was from Fife. The red 188 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: clay on her shoes, which could have only come from 189 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: the botanical gardens area, which was near the road that 190 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: he asked her if she had walked up. That's like 191 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: something that would happen on a detective show totally. The 192 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: coach she had slung over her arm was too big 193 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: for the child who was with her, so it must 194 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: have been for another kid, which means that she must 195 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,359 Speaker 1: have left home with two kids. And she had dermatitis 196 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: on her right hand, which was peculiar to workers who 197 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: worked in the specific linoleum factory in that town where 198 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: he had ascertained that she was from. So all of 199 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: these really super specific minute details. He suddenly put that 200 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: together upon meeting her, who knows, maybe in the matter 201 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: of seconds, and decided that it was correct. And sure enough, 202 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: she answered each question. In this conversation, she was like, yep, 203 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: I left the kid with my sister. Um, yeah, it 204 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: was a good walk. I mean, she answered all of 205 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: these questions in the affirmative and proved that he had 206 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: ascertained correctly. Who would have thought he was a wizard 207 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: or something. I don't know. I think that would disturb 208 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: me a little bit if somebody was that spot on 209 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: about everything. Yeah, I don't know if I would have 210 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: been exactly encouraged either, But it worked for a lot 211 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: of people. And it turns out that people say that 212 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: he was right most of the time, but if he 213 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: wasn't there were occasions where the patient would say, oh, 214 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: that's not correct, and a lot of times he would 215 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: then go further and expose that they were lying. Yeah, 216 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: which is kind of I mean, taking to the step further, 217 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: but um, not exactly living up to the point of 218 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: putting your patients at ease at that point, I guess 219 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: probably not, but at least getting the job done, which 220 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: is getting to the heart of the problem. His goal 221 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: was diagnosing, so he got to the truth one way 222 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: or another most of the time. Yeah, And I mean 223 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: he recognized that this was a valuable skill for his profession, 224 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: and so he wanted to train his students to have 225 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: the same abilities and taught them to look for those 226 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: really specific details that gave someone away, you know, like 227 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: everything from the way person walked, for instance, a sailor 228 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: would walk differently from a soldier. Um look at their hands, 229 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: which hands are not only give you big clues about 230 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: someone's age, but maybe even a person's profession. And he 231 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: even went so far as to say that you could 232 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: tell the difference between different types of callouses on the 233 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: hands tell what somebody did based on that. Yeah, Like 234 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: he he asserted that a mason would have different types 235 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: of callouses than say a carpenter or something, and that 236 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: he could by observing you could guess which profession a 237 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: person was in. And then also some more obvious things too, 238 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: like ornaments and tattoos and clothing and posture and just 239 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: a person's overall demeanor, things that might give away where 240 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,119 Speaker 1: they're from, where they're going, what's going on where they've traveled, 241 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: all those kind of things. And he also had them 242 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: closely studies subjects that could help them make certain distinctions 243 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: when they were coming up with diagnoses, such as diverse 244 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: odors of poisons, even perfumes. They had to sort of 245 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: sample all these things and learn I guess the technical 246 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: aspect of it too, not just looking at okay, what 247 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: does this person have on them? What markings can I see? 248 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: But also can I recognize a certain sense, certain tastes, 249 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: certain sites. Yeah, and the way he did that was 250 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: maybe sometimes a little questionable yep. According to UH column 251 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: two tho nine column and The Forensic Examiner, written by 252 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: a Dr. Catherine Ramslin, she describes this funny kind of 253 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: training exercise or trick that Bell used with his students 254 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: when teaching them his method. Basically, he had this gross 255 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: container of amber colored fluid, which he told them up 256 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: front was disgusting, bitter tasting. But he told them that 257 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: it was a potent drug, and since they needed to 258 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: learn how various substances taste and smell, they should follow 259 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: his example and taste it right now. So he stuck 260 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: a finger in it, licks the finger, and then they 261 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: all have to do the same, and sure enough pass 262 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: it around. He's correct, it's bitter tasting. They all agree 263 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: with everyone's grossed out. And then at the end, though 264 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: Bell tells him that they've missed the most important part 265 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: the finger that he dipped into the liquid wasn't the 266 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: same one that he tasted, so he didn't actually taste 267 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: this disgusting stuff at all. Yeah, so they hadn't really 268 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: observed him at all. They had missed the most important thing, 269 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: even though they had been looking straight at them. So 270 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: this was a key lesson in his method that he 271 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: was trying to teach a magician, or he could have. 272 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: So Bell didn't just use this method for teaching and 273 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: to help his patients. He also used it to help 274 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: solve crimes in a homes esque sort of way. So 275 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: there's another little connection that we can see there. He 276 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: actually admitted to a reporter in the eighteen nineties that 277 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: he had been involved for about twenty years two decades 278 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: or so, that he had been working on criminal cases 279 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: for the crown, but he wouldn't divulge any details about this. 280 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: But RMS Land, that author we mentioned earlier, asserted that 281 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: he was involved in a few really big cases, and 282 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: one of them was the case of Elizabeth Chantrelle. She 283 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: was this young woman who was murdered by her no 284 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: good husband, Eugene Chantrelle for her insurance money, and he 285 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: tried to make it seem like it was an accidental death, 286 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: that she had been killed by coal gas poisoning, but 287 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: Bell worked with a toxicologist from the university named Sir 288 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: Henry little John and helped prove that Chantrell had actually 289 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: been poisoned. She hadn't been poisoned by the gas. She 290 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: had been poisoned by something else entirely, and her husband 291 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: had staged the room and stay the murder to make 292 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: it look like she had died from the gas leak. Yeah. 293 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this guy didn't do any favors. He had 294 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: pretty much made it clear that he wanted to kill 295 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: his wife because he had insured her life around this time, 296 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: and then sure enough later when she fell ill, he 297 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: tried to blame it on this gas leak, but they 298 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: found out that it was narcotic poisoning. And I think 299 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: he was also involved in the Jack the Ripper case. 300 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: You may have heard of it. You may have heard 301 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: of this exciting case. Several sources more than just Ramslin, 302 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: they connect Bell to this case, but there's no real 303 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: record that reveals who he suspected, which one of the 304 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: suspects he thought was the real killer involved here. Yeah, 305 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: and he worked with Little John the toxicologist again on 306 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: this one, studied the case and did handwriting analysis of 307 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: the Ripper letters. And this part is really sad. But 308 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: the two men prepared reports on it and sent them 309 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: to Scotland Yard. But apparently the reports don't exist anymore. Yeah, 310 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: it would be nice to know what his guess was. 311 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, he seems like a pretty 312 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,239 Speaker 1: reliable source. He'd be as good as anything we have 313 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: for the Ripper murders, definitely. But he believed that this method, 314 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: when used in solving crimes, was superior to the tunnel 315 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: vision of ordinary cops. Um. What that means, basically is 316 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: that ordinary policeman, this is Bell's opinion, when they come 317 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: up with the theory, they come up with the theory first, 318 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: and then they try to find the facts to support that. 319 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: He believed in getting the facts first and then making 320 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: observations and deductions to come up with an ultimate hypothesis 321 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: until it makes sense, until it all makes sense. And 322 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: he did think that you could come up with a 323 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: hypothesis and use that as a guide, but he believed 324 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: that you should be flexible and accept new facts that 325 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: come along and use that to kind of revise it 326 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: along the way, Yeah, don't become a slave to your hypothesis. 327 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: So maybe indirectly through holmes character. Bell's approach to solving 328 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: crimes has been a big influence in kind of combining 329 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: forensic science and crime investigation, which we see a lot 330 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: of today. It's kind of the norm, but he was 331 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: a bit of an influence in that. One main example 332 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: of this is Edmund Lockard. Sherlock Holmes was one of 333 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: his big heroes and Lockard established the world's first private 334 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: crime lab in nineteen ten, which was just a year 335 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: before Bell died. So clearly very influenced indirectly by Bell's work. Yep. 336 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: Still today there's the Joseph Bell Center for Forensic Statistics 337 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: and Legal Reasoning in Edinburgh, which was established in two 338 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: thousand one, and there they still honor and use Bell's 339 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: methods and approach to teaching forensics, statistics, law, artificial intelligence, 340 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: and ontological studies. Yeah, so useful stuff today. But after 341 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: you hear a little bit about this guy, Joseph Bell, 342 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: it seems like the connection to Sherlock Holmes is very obvious. 343 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it's easy to see how he would have 344 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: led to his character's creation, but it's We're not just 345 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: like finding convenient comparisons and making it all match up. 346 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: There's more than that. There's actual evidence behind it. I 347 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: think Bell would be proud. Bell would definitely approve there's 348 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: some hard evidence to back it up. In a letter 349 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: to Bell on May fourth, which is still owned by 350 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: Bell's ascendants, Conan Doyle said this quote, it is most 351 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: certainly to you that I owe Sherlock Holmes. And though 352 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: in the stories I have the advantage of being able 353 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: to place the detective and all sorts of dramatic positions, 354 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: I do not think that his analytical work is in 355 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: the least an exaggeration of similar effects which I have 356 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: seen you produce in the Outpatient Ward. Yeah, so that 357 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: pretty much steals it. That's it. And Bell was really 358 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: humble about this. You would think maybe if you have 359 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: kind of Doyle right to you and say you are 360 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes, you might brag about that a little bit. 361 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: I would think it was pretty cool. I would think 362 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: it was definitely cool. But he basically said later that 363 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: Conan Doyle had made a bigger deal out of out 364 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: of what there was, and that Sherlock Holmes was really 365 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: Conan Doyle. You know it was. His genius was a 366 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: result of Conan Doyle's own talents and his own training. 367 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: And he even said, quote, you yourself are Sherlock Holmes 368 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: and you well know it. So here he is just 369 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: kind of denying this major influence and maybe he just 370 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: didn't want the attention. He was happy enough with his 371 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: with his own accolades, accomplishments. Yea, And what he said 372 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: isn't entirely untrue either. Conan Doyle does seem to have 373 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: added a little bit of himself to holmes character, as 374 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: a lot of writers do in their works. His eccentric personality, 375 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: Holmes's eccentric personality that is, for example, many people often 376 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: attribute to the author. Bill was actually kind of a nice, 377 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: charming guy, right. He was known to be really carrying, funny, compassionate, 378 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: whereas conn and Doyle I think was more prone to 379 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: having maybe what was closer not manic depression as Holmes 380 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: did Holmes character did, but maybe something closer to that 381 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: type of personality. Prickly, you wouldn't want him to be 382 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: your personal doctor, maybe if you were Queen Victoria, definitely, 383 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: But I think the bell fit the Bill a little better. Um. 384 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: They we also see different influences from other people who 385 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: lived in Edinburgh at the time and that during that 386 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: same period who show up as part of Holmes character, 387 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: such as Sir Robert Christensen, who was another professor at 388 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: the university and he is said to have influenced holmes 389 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: knowledge of poisons. So it's a mix, yeah, as as 390 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: most characters are. I'd say yeah, but I mean still 391 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: in terms of that basic method and approach, Bell definitely 392 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: inspired Homes and Holmes still has a lot of influence 393 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 1: on characters today. Thanks so much for joining us on 394 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: this Saturday. Since this episode is out of the archive, 395 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: if you heard an email address or Facebook U r 396 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: L or something similar over the course of the show 397 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: that could be obsolete now. Our current email address is 398 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: History Podcast at i heart radio dot com. Our old 399 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: health stuff works email address no longer works, and you 400 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: can find us all over social media at missed in 401 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: History and you can subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts, 402 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: Google Podcasts, the I heart Radio app, and wherever else 403 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. 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