1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuffworks 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, you wasn't the stuff to Blow your mind. 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: Robert I have a question for you. Hit me with it. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: Have you ever had the experience of waking up in 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the middle of the night, dark room and realizing that 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: there is someone in the room with you, somebody who 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to be there, um not. Since I was 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: a child, I had a couple of incidents like that 10 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: where I thought there was an extra terrestrial in the 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: room with me. Like I've been watching too many episodes 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: of Unsolved Mysteries. Those were really scarier. They were scarier 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: than any horror movie I saw, especially when they got 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: into the Supernatural whatever season that really took hold. But yeah, 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: I remember being influenced by those I think, and waking 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: up and feeling like there was like a creature setting 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: on my bed, and that like the worst thing I 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: could possibly do would be to set up and acknowledge 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: its presence, because then they gave it the up right, 20 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: you just had to pretend. But I haven't really experienced 21 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: anything like that in my adult life. Aside from you know, 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: the cat coming in and you know, peeping under the 23 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: bed or something of that nature. All natural phenomenon, All natural, Yeah, 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: total natural explanation for the cat phenomenon. Now did you 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: see the alien? Could you remember what it looked like? 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't see it, like, so it wasn't an actual 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: visual hallucination or anything, but it was it was like 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,279 Speaker 1: being stuck between a state where I'm kind of having 29 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: a dream awareness of what the situation might be, so 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: like a dream image, which I guess if you really 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: wanted to stretch you, you you could even say it's kind 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: of like an ounder body experience because I'm having like 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: a third person view of the scenario. It's almost not 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: not visual. It's a presence awareness, yeah, like presence awareness, 35 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: but then kind of backed up with with with a 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: thought interpretation of what this scenario might look like from 37 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, from a third person perspective. You know, I 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: can't really remember having this experience in a very strong way, though, 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: I think I have woken up and and had weird 40 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: kind of thoughts, almost as if dreams were continuing into 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: the moment. But this is not an uncommon thing for 42 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: people to report waking up in the middle of the 43 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: night dark room, or I guess it doesn't even have 44 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: to be all that dark. You just wake up and 45 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: as you're coming out of that liminal state, there's a 46 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: silhouette leaning over the bed, or or even something clutching 47 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: your throat, pressing down on your chest, sitting on your torso, 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: or covering your face. Uh, these are experiences people sometimes have, 49 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: and one can imagine if you take it the next step, 50 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: as you're sort of you're you're lying in bed, you're 51 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: lying supine, you're prone, you are in this vulnerable position. 52 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: An obvious way that this threat could could take on 53 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: a new sort of connotation is if people believe that 54 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: there's a sexual element to it. Yes, and you know, 55 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: and it's it's worth noting here too, and all of 56 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: this that we talked about, the darkness often your break. 57 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: You're waking up into a mix of darkness and a light, 58 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: a twilight of a realm between day and night. And likewise, 59 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: this is a space between a full awaking and full sleep, 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 1: between dream and waking wakefulness. So in many respects, you're 61 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: space between exactly yeah, and you're you're also in a 62 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: space that's a physical space that's often between two acts, right, 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: I mean, what do people primarily think of the bed 64 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: in their house being for It's for sleeping, but also 65 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: people think of it as being for sex. Yeah, I mean, 66 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what you think of it for, but 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the comment that is a common 68 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: use of the of the bedge or Yeah. And so 69 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear to see how if you have this 70 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: kind of experience of waking up thinking there is a presence, 71 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: an unwanted presence or an unrecognized presence in the bed 72 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: with you, on the bed with you, or even on 73 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: top of you, that this type of experience could take 74 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: on sexual types of feelings and certainly also on top 75 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: of you know, various nocturnal um arousal nocturnal emissions, you know, 76 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: their sexual elements common to the sleeping experience. Right, And 77 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: so this connects to the topic that we wanted to 78 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: talk about today, the concept of the incubus and the succubus, 79 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: the age old legendary demons that come in the night 80 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: to have sex with human beings. Yes, it's one of 81 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: my my favorite topics because it has everything right, it has. 82 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: I knew that about because I mean just just as 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: a topic, right, I mean, it has demons, it has 84 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: we have mythology, we have folklore, we have we have 85 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: we haventten and evil culture. We have various cultures of 86 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: international folk beliefs. We have some psychology, we have neuroscience. Um, 87 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: the mysteries of sleep and dreaming. All of it, um 88 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: wound up into a tangle. Absolutely. And you add onto 89 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: that the fact that even the even the old reports, 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: even the historical reports, when you read medieval and early 91 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: modern sources on this kind of thing, they're kind of salacious. 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: You know. There's there's nothing better than old timey salacious. Yeah. 93 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: And I mean it's really creepy salacious too when you 94 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: get into into some of the the ideas we're gonna 95 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: be discussing here, where the notion of incubi and succubi 96 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: are informed in large part by first of all, witchcraft 97 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: theorists and and also the testimony of torture victims. So 98 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: you have just like the engine of creativity for these 99 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: ideas is just obscene and filter through a strong lens 100 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: of misogyny. Yes, yes, it's um. Yeah, So it's a 101 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: very it's a very disturbing topic. Uh, in in many respects, 102 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: and yet we can't quite look away like it's such 103 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: a captivating idea because it also does play into a 104 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: universal experience, that of of sweet paralysis, which we'll get 105 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 1: into in a bit, that of that of just strange 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: nightmares and visions. Well, Robert, I agree that it's something 107 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: that we can't look away from, and not just us 108 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: types of weirdos who are interested in these strange historical 109 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: phenomenon possible psychological explanations. There are people today who I mean, 110 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: if you're willing to believe what they write on message 111 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: boards online and stuff, who think that they are being 112 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: haunted by an incubus or a succubus. They think that 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: there is a demon who's coming to them for a 114 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: sexual relationship that they don't want. I've seen Yahoo answers 115 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: pages where people literally are saying, you know, I have 116 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: an incubus visiting me. I need to know how to 117 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: get rid of it, And people are offering different types 118 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: of advice for how to rid yourself of this demon, 119 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: you know, to having spiritual types of remedies, of converting 120 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: to a certain religion, of doing certain incantations. It's a 121 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: thing that some people still believe in today. Well, it's 122 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: it's always important to know with these these episodes we 123 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: were talking about at heart a paranormal experience. I mean, 124 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: regardless of how many explanations we have in an actual 125 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: scientific underlying causes for these experiences, the experiences themselves are real. 126 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: The experiences themselves are traumatic, are potent, and and have 127 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: an effect on the individual. Yeah, I'm sure you can 128 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: probably guess we're not going to conclude at the end 129 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: of today's episode that there are real nighttime demons. Certainly 130 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: there are real experiences, right right, Yeah, even even though 131 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and just put that to bed, 132 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: that that demons do not exist, they kind of do. 133 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: Like if they exist in your mind, if they exist 134 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: in your experience of them, then that's that's good enough. 135 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: Like that's a reality you're gonna have to deal with. Yeah. Yeah, 136 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: So let's hit the basics of the incubi and the succubi. 137 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: Are these the plural we're gonna use. Surely we're not 138 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: gonna be saying succu busses, no, no, no, sucuba maybe, 139 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: but I think incubi, incuby, and succubi. I also see 140 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: text just referring to them as incubus demons and succubus demons. Um. 141 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, incubye and succuby. So let's start with the 142 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: The incubus translated as that which lies upon incubi carry 143 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: out the same basic torment tactics that you find in 144 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: the traditional nightmare or night mara. Um. It's so this 145 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: is not just the word for the dream but a 146 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: type of creature, right. Yeah. Even the yeah that we 147 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: get the word nightmare from the night mara which was 148 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: this essentially just one of the many different there's so 149 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: many different names for the nightmarish um, you know, night 150 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: terror entity and sometimes their sexual elements. Sometimes they're not 151 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: the broadly speaking, the less sexual version of it is 152 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: just the night the nightmare of the nightmare that comes 153 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: the creature that comes to a press you in your 154 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: dreams and to physically, you know, press down on you 155 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: and keep you from getting up direct tie in there 156 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: to sleep prowsies, which we'll get into later on an episode. Um. 157 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: But the the incubus not only crushes the victim, not 158 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: only holds a victim in place, but adds this additional 159 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: sexual element. So the Latin root of the word incubus 160 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: is is the same place we actually get the English 161 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: word incubate. I thought this was kind of interesting in 162 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: for upon in Cuba a for to lie or to 163 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: lean um. So you know, a mother hen is actually 164 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: the incubus, for her own egg lies upon it. That 165 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: makes this is sort of a literal translation and also 166 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: associated with the idea of the incuba, which sometimes means 167 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: a nightmare, you know, a bad dream. But it's also 168 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: related to another construction from the Latin in coomberre, which 169 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: means to lie down upon, giving a whole new meaning 170 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: to the concept of incumbent. The word incumbent comes from. 171 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: So the incumbent politician is sort of the incubus of 172 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: the office that he or she holds. An incumbent bicycle 173 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: Is that a thing now, I'm thinking of incumbent, and 174 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: certainly an incubus bicycle not a thing um. But so 175 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: the incubus, the incubus is the night visiting demon who 176 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: has some kind of sexual connotation too, and it has 177 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: sexual activity with the person that it visits. And typically 178 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: the incubus is described as being male, right right, that's 179 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: the very broad even you know, dungeon, dragons, monster manual 180 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: distinction that you have the male incubus and the female succubus. Now, 181 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: I do have to say that a lot of this 182 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: kind of breaks down when you start looking at different 183 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: regional interpretations and different texts. Sometimes they'll use a uh, 184 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: incubus as being possible possibly a male or a female form. 185 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: It's not it shouldn't come as a surprise that people 186 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: kind of seem to be making up the rules for 187 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: these things they went along. Yeah, yeah, imagine that. It's 188 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: almost as if demonology was was pulled wholesale out of 189 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: somebody's butt. Um, perhaps that the devil's but because the 190 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: devil's but just a ground everything does show up fairly frequently, 191 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 1: uh in witchcraft theory. Okay, yeah, But on that note, 192 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's interesting to notice we're talking about a 193 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: male incubus pray praying on females and a female succubus 194 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: praying on males. That that that homophobia ran so deep 195 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: in medieval culture that, as author Walter Stevens pointed out 196 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: in his excellent book demon Lovers, which will discuss a 197 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: little more in a bit, he pointed out that witchcraft 198 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: theorists of the day, they can talk concocted all sorts 199 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: of body demon on human scenarios for accused witches of 200 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: both genders. Yet they balked at the notion of male 201 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: demons engaging in in gay sex. Yeah. I thought that 202 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: was interesting because that so, if I recall correctly, Stevens 203 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 1: has a section in the book where essentially he writes 204 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: how people of the late medieval early modern period considered 205 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: that male demons the incubi, would would find sex with 206 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: a human male abhorrent. Which but there there He's He's like, 207 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: their very nature is that they're abhorrent. Yeah, you would 208 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: think that a culture that that vilifies homosexuality would then 209 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: have the embodiments of of evil. These demons just embrace 210 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: it completely. But I think the way Stevens characterized it 211 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: was just that that, for example, Heinrich Kramer, the author 212 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: of the Mallius Malificar, The Hammer of the Witches that 213 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about at length in a bit, Uh, 214 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: he was just sort of so repulsed by the idea 215 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: of homosexual intercourse that he he thought, oh, that's below 216 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: even the demons. Yeah, yeah, so it's there. There's a 217 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of personal anks that goes 218 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: into being a proper witchcraft theorist as well. But then, 219 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: of course, so we have the incubus, that's the male demon, 220 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: but then the female counterpart is known as the succubus, 221 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: that's right. And while the incubus is that which lies upon, 222 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: the succubus draws its name from the Latin sub under 223 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: and kubare, which we I think we already mentioned here 224 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: to lie down. So it's technic is to lie beneath. Yeah, 225 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: so it sactic is somewhat altered from that of your 226 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: typical nightmare. It abandons the crushing tactic of its cousin 227 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: and cranks up the sexuality with a submissive flare. Uh. 228 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: And it exclusively targets male victims and um and may 229 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: take on other forms unknown or visible females also withered 230 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: hags or crones. That's typical. And there's this wonderful motif 231 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: that you see throughout incubine succuby myth in in Western traditions, 232 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: and that is that. Okay, so God's allowing all of 233 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: this to happen. Essentially, I'm not gonna cast stones, but 234 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: this is all happening in God's creation. So God would 235 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: surely not allow demons to create like a perfect facsimile 236 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: of the human form. Surely there'll be some there'll be 237 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: some out will be some loophole, right, And so you 238 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: see this idea that the the incubier succubi can replicate, 239 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, a fetching male or female specimen completely except 240 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: for one detail, and generally it's the feet, so it'll 241 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: look like a beautiful maiden, but it will have the 242 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: feet of a duck, so that, you know, a a 243 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: proper Christian individual would be able to notice and when 244 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: would realize, oh, this has the feet of the duck. 245 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead shut this down, Whereas 246 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: I guess a sinful person would be would be like, oh, 247 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: wells observant, yeah, less observant or hush, she has the 248 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: feet of a duck, but why not? What moves is it? 249 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: What movie is it where there's a sorceress with the 250 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: feet of a duck. Oh, you know what I'm thinking of. 251 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of Ray harry House and Sinbad in the 252 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: Eye of the Tiger, in which there is a sorceress 253 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: witch character who I remember being I haven't seen this 254 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: in years, but I remember her being pretty great. But 255 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: there's a scene where she changes herself into a seagull 256 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: so she can spy on a ship, and then she 257 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: changes herself back, but she can't fully do it, and 258 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: she retains a bird foot. See. I wonder if that 259 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: is a direct reference or kind of like like a 260 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: cultural echo of this older idea. It also reminds me 261 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: of the movie Freaked. I don't know if you ever 262 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: saw this tremendous film. It's um Kanu. Reeves has a 263 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: small part in it, but it's mainly who's the other 264 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: guy in Bill and Ted um Uh Winters Alex Aux Winters. Yeah, 265 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: so it's Alex Winters project and it has Randy Quaid 266 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: as I'm suddenly big on Randy. My favorite Randy Quaid 267 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: films recently. Randy Quaid plays like an evil, a freak 268 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: show operator, mad scientist, and there's a there's a scene 269 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: towards the end where he essentially shaped shifts into a 270 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: supermodel and and almost pulls it off, and then you 271 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: realize the supermodel has monstrous feed. Oh but that's a 272 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: great film there. If you haven't seen it, I highly 273 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: recommend Freaked. One last side note, you know a good 274 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: game to play with with Randy Quaid. As you take 275 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: Dennis Quaid movies and you just name a Dennis Quaid movie, 276 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: and every time you do, you imagine that in the 277 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: Dennis Quaid role, it's Randy Quaid. See Randy Quaid is slash. 278 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: Was a tremendous actor. I think he he didn't get 279 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: a proper shake, you know. I mean we remember him 280 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: for these comedic roles. But I was just talking the 281 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: other day in an episode about his portrayal was Frankenstein's Monster, 282 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: and he was great. I don't think I've ever seen 283 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: that which movies though it was Patrick Bergen early nineties 284 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: adaptation made for TV. I think, huh, but I haven't 285 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: seen it in ages, but I remember it being quite good. Okay, 286 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: Well back to the Incubus. In the Succubus, So these 287 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: spirits that we've talked about are mostly going to be 288 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: coming out of Western sort of Middle Eastern and European folklore, 289 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: but surely there are other examples of these types of 290 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: creatures around the world, because, as we talked about at 291 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: the beginning, they seem to have something to do with 292 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: a common human experience of waking up from dreams and 293 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: having these kinds of feelings of terror and panic and 294 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: vulnerability in the night. That's obviously not isolated to Europe 295 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: or or the Middle East. So surely other places around 296 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: the world have similar types of creatures. Oh indeed, Yeah, we'll, we'll, 297 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: we'll reference a few of them here. One that immediately 298 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: comes to mind from me and I imagined for a 299 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: number of our our listeners are the fox spirits of 300 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: various Asian traditions. In particular, the one I probably a 301 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: little more versed in is the huli Jing, which is 302 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: um that the Chinese fox spirits. So this is a wonderful, 303 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: um monstrous creature that shows up in in various folk 304 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: tales and myths of China. And it's a multi tailed 305 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: fox that also has the form of a beautiful woman, 306 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: and it it depends on the tail exactly how villainous 307 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: the fox spirit actually is. But you often see versions 308 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: of it where it's it seduces men, curses them, um 309 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: uses a spell on them, or in other times rewards 310 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: worship or drains your vitality. So it's the creature is 311 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: kind of a a a magical feminine embodiment, so it's 312 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: a it's a creature of the the yin universal principle, 313 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: and in some of these versions of the tales, it 314 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: actually drains yang energy, so yen is generally considered female. Generally, 315 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: this is like it's far more complicated than that, of 316 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: course when you get into dallasm But but that's kind 317 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: of like the surface level understanding, you know. But but 318 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: certainly it has a lot in common with the succubus myth. 319 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: And then you also see various versions of the incubus 320 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: as well, and in Chinese of folklore you see something 321 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: known as the Wutong shin. So these are I feel 322 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: like I've heard of that before, As with a lot 323 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: of things mythical, they're they're you know, they're various versions 324 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: of exactly what they are, but that you have some 325 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: accounts where they descended to earth in a blaze of fire, uh, 326 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: swiftly assuming assuming the human form of five brothers. And here, 327 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: like the Western incubus, they they function as demonic seducers. 328 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Yet while the the incubus exploits a female victim sinful nature, 329 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: the Wu Tong preyed upon innocent victims, traumatizing them with 330 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: nightmarish sexual assaults. And their form ranged from that of 331 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: a handsome youth to a one legged monster, just as 332 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: their their very nature varied from like a complete demonic 333 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: enemy to a god of wealth that some individuals actually worshiped. 334 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: You know, this makes me think about a thing that 335 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: is definitely there in all the stuff we've read about 336 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: the incubus and the succubus and seems to be present 337 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: in these types of creature legends around the world. Is 338 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: there's not a very consistent thread as to um whether 339 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: these creatures are rapists or seducers. You know, do they 340 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: essentially have sex with their human victim completely against their 341 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: will or do they kind of hypnotize them and seduce them? Yeah, 342 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: And I imagine that depends a lot on the the 343 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: exact nature of the paranormal experience, right like if it's 344 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: like highly traumatic, dramatic and it feels like an assault, 345 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: or if there is a like a consensual element to 346 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: the experience um or and then certainly how one is 347 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: coloring yet afterwards in memory, because it could be one 348 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: thing I guess in terms of the dream experience, the 349 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: paranormal experience, and then you're trying to make sense of 350 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: this seemingly otherworldly encounter um and and certainly it would 351 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, for instance, it might depend on how you 352 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: saw the wutong Shin, if you saw them as demonic invaders, 353 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: or if you saw them like like many did. Is 354 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: this um this out of wealth and greed that you 355 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: could um you could you know, venerate through hedonistic excess 356 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: and and actually benefit from Wait, you mean like people 357 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: would worship the wutong Shin. Yeah, apparently, But again you 358 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: get into you get into, you know, sort of an 359 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: amorphous definition of what they were. And certainly they're going 360 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: to be different different things to different people at different times, 361 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: depending on where you're you're looking at. But for instance, 362 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: you you you did see Wutong temples uh in xang 363 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: Su Province up until their state order destruction. Five. I 364 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: was reading about this in a paper by Richard von 365 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: glan Uh titled The Enchantment of Wealth, the God Wu 366 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: Tong and the Social History of jeng Nan and Uh, 367 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: and he pointed out that there were these There was 368 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: this idea that a man would enter into a pact 369 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: with the Wutong uh, suffer the seduction or outright assault 370 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: of his wives and daughters, and then he finally lose 371 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: all his old gait and old gotten wealth through additional calamity. 372 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: So it's um so in that it's kind of like 373 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: this this typical uh tale of someone who enters into 374 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: a pact with the demonic and then suffers for it. 375 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: But but also like clearly enough, people also believed in 376 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: this is something that you could you could benefit from, 377 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: Like they had a more I guess beneficial definition of 378 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: what these entities were, the Wu Tong, the five penetrating ones. Well, 379 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: we'll definitely see this show up in some of the 380 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: late medieval and early modern witchcraft ideas, right because that 381 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: they had the idea that the incubus is not always 382 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: necessarily just a night invader, but it might be an 383 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: entity that you make a relationship with and that gives 384 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: you power. Indeed, indeed, because that's that that yeah, like 385 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: you say, that is that is core to the whole 386 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: witchcraft theorist idea. That because it's one thing to imagine 387 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: these scenarios, but then when you start applying your your 388 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: waking mind rationality to it, then you have to explain 389 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: what's going on, Like what what are these things? Why 390 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: are they interacting with humans? How are they interacting with humans? 391 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: Like that's a whole topic in and of itself. This is, 392 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: as we've pointed out several times, is where you start 393 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: to get all these weird conflicting rules and characterizations. Yeah yeah, 394 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: because you you're you're building something out of air, right, 395 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: You're you're you're constructing something that doesn't exist. And in 396 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: many cases you have these witch witchcraft theorists in the 397 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: Western tradition that are trying to support the the theory 398 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: by invoking, you know, everyone from Thomas Aquinas to Aristotle 399 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: to have a learned theory of why a demon would 400 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: have sexual relations with a human. Now, obviously China and 401 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: Western Europe do not do not have a monopoly on 402 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: sexual demons. Sure, And one of the things that's interesting 403 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: to me is that there are a couple of different 404 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: elements at play, and I think the core idea of 405 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: the incubus and the succubus, the orcubus or or as 406 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: an eternal the or incubus or succubus the mythology one 407 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: is the night time element. And it's definitely true that 408 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: throughout all types of cultures we see night time demons 409 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: right the night which, the night wanderer, the night hag. 410 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: They you know, they show up at night and they 411 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: do horrible things. But the other is the pure sexual element, 412 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: either either an element of being some sort of rapist 413 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: type creature or being a sexual seducer. And though these 414 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: things are sort of natural companions, I think it makes 415 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: sense to look at them separately. So I wanted to 416 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: talk about the idea of God's demons, angels, and other 417 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: unearthly beings that come to earth to have sex with 418 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: human beings. And it turns out this is extremely common 419 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: in ancient mythology. It's all over the place. So you 420 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: probably remember all the stories of Zeus in archethology, right, Zeus? 421 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: What is wrong with him? He is constantly transforming himself 422 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: into a bull, a swan, or some other animal in 423 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: order to have sex with a human woman. There are 424 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: these extremely weird story Do you remember how weird these are? Yeah? Yeah, 425 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 1: I mean it could be. It was like, it's it's 426 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: already weird enough that he's appearing and forcing himself on mortals, 427 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: but then that he's taking an animal form on top 428 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: of that unnecessary, And of course there there are plenty 429 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: of other examples throughout there. It's actually there's even in 430 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: the Hebrew Bible. Uh, there are stories of God's having 431 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: sex with human beings. So in Genesis six one through four, 432 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: there is a passage that do you remember the passage 433 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: about the nephilim o the giants in the earth exactly? Yeah, 434 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: So where did the giants on the earth come from? Well, 435 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: Genesis six one through four tells us now it came 436 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: about when men began to multiply on the face of 437 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: the land, and daughters were born to them. That the 438 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, 439 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then 440 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: the Lord said, my spirit shall not strive with man forever, 441 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: because he also is flesh. Nevertheless, his days shall be 442 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty years. The Nephelim were on the 443 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons 444 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: of God came into the daughters of men and they 445 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: bore children to them, those were the mighty men who 446 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: were of old men of renown. So that word nephelim, 447 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: sometimes in other translations, is rendered giants, but it's telling 448 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: the story of how whatever it means by the sons 449 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: of God, and this is often interpreted to be some 450 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 1: sort of angelic being servants of god lesser deities of 451 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: some form. They saw that earth women were beautiful, and 452 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: they decided that could be. It's not made especially clear 453 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: in the in that rendering, but yeah, so they decided so, 454 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: and they were like, well, let's go have children with 455 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: those women. And they did, and their children were not 456 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: like normal human babies. The the offspring of these heavenly 457 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: creatures and the earth women were giants. Yeah, they were. 458 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: So they were essentially kind of like demi gods, right ideas, 459 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: And and this is interesting because this comes an area 460 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: of frequent argument among theologians and witchcraft theorists later on, 461 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: because this is they they everyone ends up looking back 462 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: to this is a possible scriptural um definition or scriptural 463 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: proof that demonic entities are capable of interacting with humans 464 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: like on a like a material level, because they were 465 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: there were theories They're like, Okay, well maybe demons are immaterial, 466 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: and how is an immaterial being supposed to uh engage 467 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: in a physical act with a material being? They have bodies? Like, 468 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: this is a whole way we could we could. Walter 469 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: Stevens goes into this a lot in his book Demon Lovers, 470 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: and it's tremendously interesting. Yeah. The obviously later theologians expended 471 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 1: a lot of energy on the subject of whether demons 472 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: have physical bodies, whether if maybe they're made of aerial material, 473 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: and if they're made of aerial material that can still 474 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: interact with your body as with a fan. Does. I 475 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: think that's the point Augustine made. It's it's amazing how 476 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: important these people thought this was. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 477 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: and we'll well, I guess we'll unpack this in in 478 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: a bit, but yeah, you're coming down to physical proof 479 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: of the spiritual realm. Like that's what it all essentially 480 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: comes down to. Like if if demons, it's kind of 481 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: kind of it's kind of like the hand of God thing, Right, 482 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: if the hand of God is entering our world, there 483 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: has to be some proof. There has to be a fingerprint, 484 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: a thumb print, and then we can look to and say, look, 485 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: there is the proof. Even if God is immaterial, he's 486 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: having material consequences, right, And if the the handprint the 487 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: fingerprints of God are not forthcoming, well then how about 488 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: the fingerprints or the footprints of angels? And if those 489 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: are not forthcoming, then what about demons. That's where we 490 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: we enter into this this idea, well, can a demon 491 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: have a physical form, because that seems to be their 492 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: requirement has to somehow interact with our physical world for 493 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: us to have physical proof of it. Yeah. So I 494 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: want to follow up on what I was just talking 495 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: about with the story about the gods, the sons of 496 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: God coming down to mate with earth women, because the 497 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: Genesis six version reads sort of like the cliff Notes version. 498 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: It's like the back of the book summary. Um. There 499 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: are much longer and more detailed versions of this story 500 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: that appear in apocryphal text texts that are not usually 501 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: considered part of at least part of the standard Christian canon. 502 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: And one example of this from a great old Jewish 503 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: text that is just awesome is the First Book of Enoch. 504 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: If you have never read the First Book of Enoch, 505 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: look up a translation online. I think there are a 506 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: couple of translations available on the internet. It is just great, 507 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: it is it is really interesting. Um. So the story 508 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: goes in First Enoch chapter six quote. And it came 509 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: to pass when the children of men had multiplied, that 510 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely 511 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: daughters and the angels. The children of the heaven saw 512 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: and lusted after them, and said to one another, come, 513 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: let us choose us wives from among the children of men, 514 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: and beget us children. And then later in chapter seven 515 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: it continues, and all the others, together with them, took 516 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,479 Speaker 1: unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one. And 517 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: they began to go unto them and defile themselves with them. 518 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: And they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting 519 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 520 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: became pregnant, and they bear great giants whose height was 521 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: three thousand l's. I'm not sure how tall an l is, 522 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: but there's three thousand of them. That's gotta be pretty tall. Anyway, 523 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: going on about the giants who consumed all the acquisitions 524 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: of men, And when men could no longer sustain them, 525 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they 526 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: began to sin against birds and beasts and reptiles and fish, 527 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: and to devour one another's flesh and drink the blood. 528 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones. So 529 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: this is a much more fleshed out version of what 530 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: appears to be the same tradition that shows up in 531 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: Genesis that the sons of God, these heavenly beings, came down, 532 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: made it with earth women, and gave birth to these 533 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: offspring who were very destructive and sinned against the world 534 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: that the Lord had created. And in this version, I 535 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: think it's very interesting because there there appears to be 536 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: something transactional going on between these heavenly beings and the 537 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: women who became their wives, because it says these heavenly 538 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: beings taught them things, and it's this mixture of things 539 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: that seem like real skills, like you taught them how 540 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: to cut roots and use plants that might be some 541 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: kind of uh that might be referring to agriculture itself, 542 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: or to some kind of medicinal herbology, but also taught 543 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: them charms and enchantments. Yeah, like it's it's of course, 544 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: with any of this, it's easy to apply the the 545 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: ancient alien explanation, right, I'd say, well, clearly this is 546 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: showing ancient alien visitors to Earth who taught early humans 547 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: some of the basic building blocks of civilization agricultural techniques, etcetera. Uh, 548 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: and in exchange, they got to have sex with them, 549 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: or at least it were to put a more like 550 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: refined the spin on it initiate a breeding program with humans. Uh. Yeah, 551 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: I don't take that idea very seriously, But I also 552 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: think that it's it always occurs to me that that 553 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: explanation might not actually be all that distinct from what 554 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: the authors of this passage actually had in mind. No, 555 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: because I mean, really, the the modern alien abduction scenario, 556 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: the the probing scenario even, I mean, this is this 557 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: is all just an updating of the classic Incubi succupy 558 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: succubi notion that visitors from another world are coming to 559 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: your to your house, to taking you away, maybe maybe 560 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: experimenting on you. They're doing things of a sexual nature 561 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: to you, and you don't understand what is happening, and 562 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: you have no control over the scenario. Yeah, and I 563 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: think you might be at pains to explain to the 564 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: author of first Nach what the difference is that you mean, like, what, 565 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: why is the thing you're calling an alien different than 566 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: what a god is? Yeah? Okay, So anyway, in these 567 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: ancient traditions, it's obviously been believed that angels or some 568 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: lesser deities came to Earth, had sex with human beings 569 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: and were able to create viable, if not very good offspring, 570 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: with them creating these powerful evil kind of offspring. You know. 571 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: Another if I storry to cut in again, Joe. But 572 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: something that comes to mind here too, to put a 573 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: slightly more scientific spin on it. What if one were 574 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 1: to interpret this with early hominid species. So what if 575 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: it were saying in Neanderthals and uh and Homo sapiens. 576 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: So maybe the aliens were not from another world, but 577 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: they were just a another human tribe or another near 578 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: human tribe and other just another hominid species that had 579 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: techniques to share if only we had if only we 580 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: had a tribe of giant witches. I have nothing to 581 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: pack that up with that. I'm just saying that's maybe 582 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: a slightly more scientific greed one could take auditive one 583 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: who's going to spin off some some notions. Well, I 584 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: mean it's true if you do think of the idea. 585 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily subscribe to this. I actually tend to 586 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: think often that legends very frequently reflect creative imagination. But 587 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people tend to think that legends like 588 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: this grow out of real experiences that get embellished over time. 589 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: I think that probably happens sometimes too, But I think 590 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: we've talked about this on the show before. I think 591 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: the idea the role of creative imagination gets undersold in 592 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: the creation of myth and legend. But anyway, Yeah, if 593 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: you just say that maybe something real happened, it got 594 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: embellished and mythologized over time and became this kind of story, 595 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: that's plausible, I guess. But anyway, sorry, back to back 596 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: to the incubus and the succubus. So we we we 597 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 1: have this belief angels come down to Earth have sex 598 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: with human beings. But is this type of theological belief, 599 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: this feature of ancient myth. Is this connected to the 600 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: more recent idea of just the night demons, the incubine 601 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: and succubi that visit people in their beds and and 602 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: have sexual encounters with them. Well, yes, there are some 603 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: theologians who draw connections between them, and one example we 604 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: could look at is Augustine. Do you say Augustine or Augustine? 605 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: I personally always say Augustine, but that's just me. Well, 606 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: let's let's keep some variety. I'll say Augustine. Okay. Saint 607 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: Augustine of Hippo, in his long treatise De Day the 608 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: City of God, Augustine asks a question. This is, you know, 609 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: big political theological treatise. Augustine is asking the question of 610 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: whether angels and other heavenly beings can physically mate with 611 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: human beings. And he writes, and this is translated by 612 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: Marcus Dodds quote, there is to a very general rumor 613 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: which many have verified by their own experience, or which 614 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: trustworthy persons have heard the experience of others corroborate that 615 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: sylvans and fawns, who are commonly called incubi, have often 616 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: made wicked assaults upon women and satisfied their lust upon them, 617 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: and that certain devils, called deuces by the gulls, are 618 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: constantly attempting and affecting. This impurity is so generally affirmed 619 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: that it would be imprudent to deny it. So Augustine 620 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: is not really arguing for the existence of incupy. Instead, 621 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: it sounds like he considers their existence so obvious as 622 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: to be undeniable, and rather he's using that as a 623 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: premise or a starting point in his argument about whether 624 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: angels really came down and had sex with human beings, 625 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: as described in say, the Book of Enoch. And just 626 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: for the record, Augustine kind of he denies knock. He 627 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: of course affirms what's in the Bible, but he tries 628 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: to say that the sons of God parton the Bible 629 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: is more referring to some kind of different version of 630 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: a physical man, which he identifies with the sons of Seth. 631 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: But here we have this line where you know, a 632 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: theologian living in when did Augustine live? I guess the fourth, 633 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: fourth or fifth century CE. Uh. He's trying to draw 634 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: this line from these older stories to the modern experience 635 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: of the incubus. And that's going to bring us to 636 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: maybe my favorite example of the early modern incubi commentator, 637 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: King James, the King James, King James one of England, 638 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: James one, the first one also James was the sixth 639 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 1: of Scotland, whichever one. I think they had a lot 640 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: of James's. But anyway, this is the same King James 641 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: who authorized the production of the King James Bible in English. 642 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: But he did you know this, wrote and published a 643 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: book in the Fetes that's basically Demons in Black Magic 644 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: for dummies. Yeah, I have I have run across this before, 645 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: but I've never read it in depth. This was new 646 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: to me when when I was reading up for this episode. 647 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: Is So, the book is often called the Demonology, and 648 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: it's a series of fictionalized dialogues, kind of like the 649 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: dialogues of Plato. You know, there are these two fictional 650 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: characters who are having a conversation, and it's in that 651 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: conversation that you work out the points you want to make. 652 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: And this book was designed to sort of educate as 653 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: well as argue, So it's to teach the reader all 654 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: about how evil beings are going to use sorcery and 655 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: necromancy and demonic power against humankind, but then also to 656 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: make some political arguments, such as for the moral imperative 657 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: of witch hunting. And a side note that I thought 658 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: was interesting, The Demonology appears to have been a major 659 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: influence on Shakespeare's Macbeth, so like some of the stuff 660 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: they talk about in there shows up in Macbeth. The 661 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: Weird Sisters are are sort of by the book King James, 662 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: which is but anyway, so there's a dialogue in the 663 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: King James Demonology where these these two guys Philo, Philo 664 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: Matthews and Epistemon are having a chat about demons and 665 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: the incubi and succubi come up. So Epistemon says, quote, 666 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: that abominable kind of the devil's abusing of men and 667 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: women was called of old incubi and succubi. According to 668 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: the difference of the sexes that they conversed with by 669 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: two means this great kind of abuse might possibly be performed. 670 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: And he goes, I'll summarize. He says, first of all, 671 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: they can appear as a devil, but they can steal 672 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: the sperm out of a dead man's body and then 673 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: take it to a woman. Okay, so but appearing as 674 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: a devil. And then Epistemon adds a note, I'm not 675 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: quite sure what to make of this. It seems to 676 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: be historical example, he says, quote, as we read of 677 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: a monastery of nuns which were burnt for their being 678 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: that way abused, I guess saying it like the devil 679 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: stole dead men sperm and then came to the nuns 680 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: and maybe impregnated them, and they were burned for this reason. 681 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: But then anyway, the second way he says it can 682 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: work is essentially by possession of a dead body. He said, 683 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: he can quote borrow a dead body and visibly appear 684 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: as a human when you converse with your drowsing victim. 685 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: And this word can conversation. Conversing is their word for 686 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: sex here. But Epistemond notes that either way, first of all, 687 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: the sperm is gonna seem intolerably cold to the victim. Uh. 688 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: And that's because if a demon steals it from a 689 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: quick person, meaning a living person, it's going to get 690 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: cold on route to the destination. And then quote I 691 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: thought this was great, if he occupying the dead body 692 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: as his lodging, expel the same out thereof in the 693 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: due time, it must likewise be cold by the participation 694 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: with the qualities of the dead body where out of 695 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: it comes. Now, one thing that's I think notworthy about 696 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: both of these uh theories, if you will, is that 697 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: they they they skirt the issue of the physical body 698 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: right because either I mean, it's it's taking the physical 699 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: element of reproduction, the sperm from a living human, and 700 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: or it's animating a dead body. So either way, the 701 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: sperm is not coming from the demon, it's coming from 702 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: a human. Uh. And so Epistemon goes on to claim 703 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: that incubi and succubi are not separate beings divided by sex, 704 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: but basically the same creature being able to appear either way. 705 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: And then they talk about how come there are more 706 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: of these spirit attacks in places like Lapland, Finland and 707 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 1: the Orkney Islands, and Epistemon's answer is, well, of course, 708 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: it's because that's where you find the greatest ignorance and barbarity. 709 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: But then there's a very interesting conclusion in the chapter 710 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: two I thought, uh so at the very end they 711 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: address what sounds to be talking about sleep paralysis us 712 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: and James's uh Socrates character Epistemon has a kind of 713 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: straightforward answer about it. So Philip Matthews says, is it 714 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: not the thing which we call a mare which folk 715 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: which takes folks sleeping in their beds, a kind of 716 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: these spirits whereof you are speaking? And Pestemon says, no, 717 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: that is but a natural sickness which the mediciners hath 718 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: given the name of incubus unto ab incubando, because it 719 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: being a thick flegm falling into our breast upon the 720 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: heart while we are sleeping, interclude so our vital spirits, 721 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 1: and takes all power from us, as makes us think 722 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,479 Speaker 1: that there were some unnatural burden or spirit lying upon 723 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: us and holding us down. So despite believing wholeheartedly in 724 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: incubi and succubine, James seems to dismiss them as an 725 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: explanation for the experience some people have, like we talked 726 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: about at the beginning, of waking up from a nightmare 727 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: with the sensation of a person or an entity on 728 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: top of them. Essentially, James's idea with this is now, 729 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: that's just him, So he's basing it in the humors. Yeah, 730 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: but James was not the only authority figure in late 731 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: medieval or early modern Europe to square the incubus, that's right. 732 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: And this this brings us back to Heinrich Kramer, who's 733 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:22,959 Speaker 1: widely published six text Malice Malificarum or Hammer of the Witches. Uh. 734 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,319 Speaker 1: It's a central text and the sort of demonology and 735 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: witchcraft theory that dominated Western traditions from the late fifteenth 736 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: century onward, especially so far as as again, witchcraft theory 737 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: and the persecution of alleged witches were concerned, as well 738 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: as the persecution of of men and children who are 739 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: also targeted but for them, but buying large females that 740 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: suffered the most for you know, mostly imagined crimes and uh. 741 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 1: And these were based in large part on not only 742 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: the theories that were concocted by these witchcraft theorists, but 743 00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,719 Speaker 1: also from testimonies that were obtained through the torture of 744 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 1: the the ledged witches. Yeah. So Kramer's witch Hunter's handbook here, 745 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: the Hammer of the Witches is this is a profoundly 746 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: misogynistic book and has stuff in it about essentially like 747 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: why women are especially prone to witchcraft. And this will 748 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: come up with reference to the Incubus in a moment. 749 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: So but but who was Kramer? So, Kramer was a 750 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: German Dominican churchman and inquisitor, and he in his writings, 751 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 1: in his writing of the Malice Malificaire, and he drew 752 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: on the works of various philosophers, theologians, and other witchcraft theorists. 753 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: Top theologians of the day didn't really agree with Kramer's work, 754 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,479 Speaker 1: but he was he was tireless, and he was really 755 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: really connected with his intended audience, both both at the 756 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: pulpit and in the written media. So, I mean, his 757 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: his work really resonated, especially in what was kind of 758 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 1: a broken age, uh, you know, and in this week 759 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: we have to look back on on the time period uh, 760 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: medieval culture, on early modern culture. And you know, we've 761 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: touched on this before, but there's there's always this temptation 762 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: to look back on people from previous eras and and 763 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: not really view them as fully human, you know, not 764 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you mean, thinking that people in 765 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: the past must have been stupid. Yeah, they didn't have 766 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: all of the complex technology and stuff like that we have. 767 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: They had different social values than we have. They must 768 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: have just been somehow deficient in the brain. And I 769 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: think that is not a safe assumption to make. No, no, 770 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: not at all. I mean, I mean, of course it 771 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: plays into the same for the same reasons that one 772 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 1: will look down on, or not understand or just dismiss 773 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: individuals from other cultures or even just other you know, 774 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,160 Speaker 1: demographic areas within one's own culture. But but now that 775 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: this was a time when things were a little bit broken. 776 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: I mean, the medieval world was threatened by heresies and uprisings. 777 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: Faith itself, especially among learned members of society, seemed under 778 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 1: siege at times. Uh, there was a lot of change 779 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: going on. You know, we look back and it's these sales. 780 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: Is just a dark time where people have stood around 781 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: burning witches for for for for years and years. But 782 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: but no, there were a lot of exciting new ideas, 783 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: a lot of threatening new ideas. So working out the 784 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: anxieties of the time on unfortunate victims who were accused 785 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: of witchcraft. Yeah, I mean it's it's in this sense, 786 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: it's not really that different from other dynamic times, even 787 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: our own time today. They're parallels, you could make that. 788 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean, our world is always in change, and as 789 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: we as technologies advanced in our awareness of global uh 790 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: situations are enhanced, we're constantly encountering the anxiety UH, and 791 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: that in the in the blowback from advancement. Okay, but 792 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: so say Heinrich Kramer, somebody like him is up given 793 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: a speech about what's going on with witchcraft today? What? Well, like, 794 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: what what would he say? So the resulting witchcraft theory 795 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: of the day was was like a fever dream of 796 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: black masses, satanic lots, uh, misogynistic suspicion, and the details 797 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: were as wild as could be devised by either theorist 798 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: or torture victims in the dungeons of the inquisition. Um, 799 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: you know, you just see some really awful weird ideas 800 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,919 Speaker 1: that it that that it at once on one hand, 801 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,239 Speaker 1: you can say, well, that takes some imagination and some 802 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: depravity to come up with. But on the other hand, 803 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of like you can you can easily imagine 804 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 1: somebody being tormented, and you will say anything to make 805 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: your torments stop, and so you will tell the the inquisitor, 806 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: the torture the theorists what they want to hear. So 807 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: the same imaginative capacities that lead people today to come 808 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: up with grosser and weirder horror movies and and devil 809 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,479 Speaker 1: cult movies could at the time also have been put 810 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: toward alleging real activities. Yeah, well, I mean you see, 811 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: you see, you know, grosser ideas in these some of 812 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: these witchcraft theories of the day, you can look at 813 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: on one hand as uh as these theorists just coming 814 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: up with with suitably scandalous ideas to fit their agenda, 815 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,439 Speaker 1: but also with people who are just like, I better 816 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,280 Speaker 1: tell this person something shocking so that they will stop, 817 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna keep keep telling them shocking things and 818 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,240 Speaker 1: then making adjustments to meet their demands for the script, 819 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: because ultimately that's what the witchcraft theorists wanted. They didn't 820 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: want just any crazy nonsense that would come out of 821 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,360 Speaker 1: an accused of witches mouth. They would want very particular 822 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 1: tales because they had a theological script. Yeah, they had 823 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: a script, They had an agenda. They it's kind of 824 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 1: like you know, a modern cop show where they're grilling 825 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: the suspect and they don't want the truth. They want 826 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: them to uh, they want them to admit to the crime. 827 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,319 Speaker 1: They want them to to to to provide testimony, to 828 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: provide an account of the crime that matches up with 829 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: the evidence they have, or to point the finger at 830 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,239 Speaker 1: the guy that we've got so so with with witchcraft 831 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,919 Speaker 1: theorists of the of the day, you see this huge 832 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: emphasis on demonic sex. And while you know, we'll get 833 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: to some of the possible underlying reasons in a few minutes. Here, 834 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 1: let's just discuss a couple of theories and uh. In 835 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: the hammer of the which is still is do y 836 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: demons would want to engage in all this ichy human 837 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: sex to begin with? So a lot of it is 838 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,880 Speaker 1: is grounded in the theological arguments over whether demons had 839 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 1: physical bodies, which we already touched on. Uh, And that's 840 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: the whole quagmi in and not itself. But then you 841 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: had For instance, a fifteenth century bishop Alonso Tostado, who's 842 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: citing the work of St. Augustine, weighed in on the 843 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: topic of masturbation, namely that it's not only an unnatural 844 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,320 Speaker 1: act uh in in his view and the view of 845 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: many of the church at that time, but that it 846 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,400 Speaker 1: can accidentally result in pregnancy equal through the agency of 847 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: incubus and succubus demons. Okay, so they're saying if a man, 848 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: if a man unnaturally releases his sperm, it can be 849 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 1: swiped essentially. Essentially, yeah, not unlike o what we're talking 850 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: about earlier with with the the semen of dead men 851 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: um quote. For in the form of a succubus, the 852 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,439 Speaker 1: demon can gather the semen thus emitted events, having turned 853 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,280 Speaker 1: himself into an incubus, he can deposit in the vessel 854 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,759 Speaker 1: of a woman and the woman will conceive. So again 855 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: we see this idea of the incubus and succubus being 856 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,240 Speaker 1: two forms of the same thing, of it maybe even 857 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:17,799 Speaker 1: being what I like to think of as an as 858 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: an incuse succubus, you know, where it's just one entity 859 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,840 Speaker 1: with two different forms. Um So two Statto took Thomas 860 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 1: Aquinas's concerns over demonic reality magnified them, as did Cramers. 861 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: So we end up with this concept again of the 862 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: incubus and the kind in the succubus being two forms 863 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,719 Speaker 1: of the same thing. They're gathering or even harvesting, the 864 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: semen from self polluting men or men who were willing 865 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: to to to give themselves over to these uh, these 866 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:50,759 Speaker 1: imperfect disguised demonic uh succuby. Like if you fell for 867 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: a woman with duck feed, Yeah, exactly, so you fell. 868 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: It fell fell for the duck footed woman. And what 869 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 1: she's actually doing is harvesting your semen, yeah, which also 870 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 1: ties in with some of these uh these dallas ideas 871 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,840 Speaker 1: of the of the fox spirits stealing your essence in 872 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: Chinese traditions. So they're taking the semen and then they're 873 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,879 Speaker 1: ideally here depositing them in a suitable woman. And here's 874 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: a quote, uh from Cramer along along those lines. Devils 875 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,359 Speaker 1: know how to ascertain the virtue and semen first by 876 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,239 Speaker 1: the temperament of him from whom the semen is obtained. 877 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: Secondly by knowing what woman is most fitted for the 878 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: reception of that semen. Thirdly by knowing what constellation is 879 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: favorable to that corporeal effect, So we're left with the 880 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,319 Speaker 1: with the incou succubus here is sort of an in 881 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,120 Speaker 1: vitro fertilization entity that conducts its work in order to 882 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,160 Speaker 1: see the birth of more witches who will further this 883 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 1: devil worshiping agenda and ultimately kind of a devil worshiping 884 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 1: subspecies on Earth. It gets into the idea of like, 885 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: where do whiches come from? Why are they? Why are 886 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,160 Speaker 1: these so many of these women and these people just 887 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: so inclined to uh, you know, worship the devil and 888 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,160 Speaker 1: be the devil's plaything. Well, it's because they're they're bread 889 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,399 Speaker 1: that way from other witches. And there's this kind of 890 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: um that adds to the imperative to crack down on 891 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: the witches because you're you're cleansing the species. Yeah. In fact, 892 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 1: I think even the story goes that Merlin, right, the 893 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: story Merlin of King Arthur's Hulin, right, was a figure 894 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: who was supposedly born of a human woman and an incubus, right, Okay, Yeah, 895 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: And and that would account for his magical powers, right, 896 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: And it also accounts for the question like why can't 897 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: anyone get in on this witchcraft thing, right, Why does 898 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: it seem like only so like people can benefit from it? Yeah, 899 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 1: I want in on that cursing power. All right, we're 900 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,839 Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, 901 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: we're going to look at a real world example of 902 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: an organism that acts as a sexual essence thief. All right, 903 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: we're back, all right. So, yeah, there's this. So we're 904 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 1: left with this idea within the in buying the succubi 905 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,640 Speaker 1: as being an entity that wants to steal genetic material 906 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,600 Speaker 1: from males of another species and do something with it. 907 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: And uh, I love to take sort of seemingly ridiculous 908 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,880 Speaker 1: ideas such as this and then saying, well, actually, is 909 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,319 Speaker 1: there is there a counterpart in nature? Is there's something 910 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,440 Speaker 1: in nature that works like this, Because most of the 911 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 1: time I find that, no matter how weird the idea is, 912 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna find it reflected in the natural world. There 913 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,640 Speaker 1: are more things in heaven and earth, that's right, than 914 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,000 Speaker 1: are dreamt of and your your your black mass fever dreams. 915 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,600 Speaker 1: And that's where we see the Pagano mier mix harvester ants, 916 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 1: specifically too closely related species that are found along the 917 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,680 Speaker 1: Arizona New Mexico border. Okay, so, yeah, this is this 918 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,239 Speaker 1: is interesting. According to a two thousand fourteen University of 919 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: Vermont study published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society b, 920 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,520 Speaker 1: the queen of one species is known to mate with 921 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,600 Speaker 1: males of the other species, and that he lie many 922 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,280 Speaker 1: a succubus. Duped human center can't tell the difference between 923 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 1: his own females and those of the deceiver, at least 924 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: not at first. Huh So wait this makes me wonder 925 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,839 Speaker 1: because usually I think one of the main things that's 926 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: considered the denominator of different species is that they can't 927 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,239 Speaker 1: interbreed with one another. Right, Well, you have like the 928 00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: the the the donkey and horse producing a mule scenario, 929 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,959 Speaker 1: you're the production of unstable hybrids, right exactly. Okay, yeah, 930 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,120 Speaker 1: so so that's that's what we're seeing in play here. 931 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: But so by the time the male aunt realizes that 932 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,799 Speaker 1: he's made a mistake, it's too late. He's already depositing 933 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,880 Speaker 1: sperm within his interspecies lover uh heat, and he's already 934 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 1: reduced his rate. He's trying to reduce his rate of 935 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: seamen loss, but the female simply grapples him in place 936 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,040 Speaker 1: till he delivers his entire reproductive deposit, thus robbing him 937 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,799 Speaker 1: of the chance to pass his genes onto subsequent generations. Like, really, 938 00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 1: he's been he's been cheated here in terms of his 939 00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: basic genetic mission. So the queen then uses the Pilford 940 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: sperm to produce sterile hybrid worker ants for her colony. Crazy, yes, 941 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: And and and it's apparently an essential tactic because copulation with 942 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: her own species results in queens but no workers. So 943 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,319 Speaker 1: like the succubus, she depends on the the gullability and 944 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,719 Speaker 1: weakness and seed of another species to further her ends. 945 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: So like making armies with the seed of another and 946 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: making real offspring with the seed of one zone. Yeah, 947 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,680 Speaker 1: imagine it's kind of drawback on the idea of horses 948 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,640 Speaker 1: and donkeys and mules. It's like you have, like a 949 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,799 Speaker 1: queen horse that needs an army of mules to do 950 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:41,520 Speaker 1: her bidding. Okay, Well, I was trying to think of 951 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,320 Speaker 1: a biological parallel to come up with, and I couldn't 952 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,759 Speaker 1: really except for the one particular example the way King 953 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:54,400 Speaker 1: James describes it, where the demon the incubus or the 954 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,400 Speaker 1: succubus does not really does not impregnant of itself the 955 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,480 Speaker 1: human species. It steals the sperm from one human and 956 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,040 Speaker 1: takes it to another. And this is a common way 957 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,480 Speaker 1: of characterizing the incubus, right yeah, yeah, Either it's just 958 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,359 Speaker 1: like taking sinful semen and putting in a sinful woman. 959 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: Some variation seems to seem to imply or or outright 960 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,719 Speaker 1: state that there is a manipulation of the semen. So 961 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,640 Speaker 1: it's so there's almost in the sense of some sort 962 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,359 Speaker 1: of in vitro fertilization where there's been genetic augmentation going on. Right. Well, 963 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,560 Speaker 1: the parallel I couldn't help but think of is well, 964 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:34,800 Speaker 1: then the incubus is a pollinator us it's should think, yeah, exactly. 965 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,600 Speaker 1: It wouldn't be in the true biological sense, because plants 966 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: depend on sexual reproduction by pollination in order to encourage 967 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,680 Speaker 1: genetic diversity and good health. By all accounts, of course, 968 00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,080 Speaker 1: most people who believed in this form of demonic human 969 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,000 Speaker 1: pollination with the incus succubus as the mediator believe that 970 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:56,239 Speaker 1: it resulted in less health and less virtue in the offspring. Uh. 971 00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,719 Speaker 1: And this is how quote monsters were born, which is 972 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,520 Speaker 1: a phrase back then is often used to refer to 973 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,520 Speaker 1: people with congenital disorders. Yeah, and that gets into the 974 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,920 Speaker 1: whole sort of changeling legacy as well, Like, how do 975 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: you explain um, you know, quote unquote monstrous births? What 976 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:15,399 Speaker 1: how do you explain birth defects? You end up, as 977 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,880 Speaker 1: with with the with just human nature in general, you 978 00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: end up having to explain them, uh, through spiritual failings 979 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:28,120 Speaker 1: and through the the the intersection of spiritual elements. All Right, 980 00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,760 Speaker 1: So we've looked at the tradition of the incubus and 981 00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: the succubus, what people believed about them, what people's fears 982 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: and anxieties were, and then some possible biological parallels that 983 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 1: we have to aren't too many really good ones here, 984 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,480 Speaker 1: but we should get back into the actual scientific explanations 985 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,480 Speaker 1: of what's going on here. What what explains the emergence 986 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,720 Speaker 1: of the incubus and succubus Smith? I mean, as I've 987 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,160 Speaker 1: acknowledged before, I do like the idea of creative imagination 988 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 1: that always plays some role, but clearly this is inspired 989 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:05,080 Speaker 1: by additions and experiences. So what conditions and experiences, both 990 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: psychological and neurological and cultural do we think contributed to 991 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:15,440 Speaker 1: the creation of the incubus and succubus phenomenon. Well, in 992 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,520 Speaker 1: answering this question, we we kind of have to dip 993 00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,280 Speaker 1: our toes into the into the into possible explanations for 994 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:27,800 Speaker 1: the witchcraft persecution era itself. You know, why why did 995 00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 1: were so many female victims uh murdered in the name 996 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,640 Speaker 1: of this this pridiculous quest for non existent witches, accusing 997 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,600 Speaker 1: them with non existent crimes, and not only women, but 998 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,120 Speaker 1: again men and children like young children, where we're in 999 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,560 Speaker 1: some places executed for these alleged crimes. Like why this 1000 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,560 Speaker 1: big to do? And when you when you try and 1001 00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,960 Speaker 1: answer that questions, So that question there there are several 1002 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,000 Speaker 1: answers that that manifest and and it's probably one of 1003 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,000 Speaker 1: these cases where you just you you can't necessarily depend 1004 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,840 Speaker 1: on just one of them. Were already touched on misogyny. 1005 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,440 Speaker 1: It's impossible to look at witchcraft persecution and not talk 1006 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,760 Speaker 1: about misogynistic attitudes. Yeah, it runs through and through this 1007 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 1: sort of dismissive and actually even hateful attitude towards women. Yeah. 1008 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:24,360 Speaker 1: And then likewise, yes, there were pagan practices that would 1009 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 1: that continued and in some cases those were cracked down upon. 1010 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,600 Speaker 1: There were other smaller petty agendas, you know, just fear 1011 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:35,040 Speaker 1: of outsiders, um, distrust of an individual who is a 1012 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:40,320 Speaker 1: little off, and just the overall uh, you know, mass 1013 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,520 Speaker 1: hysteria taking root as well. But one of the ideas 1014 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,200 Speaker 1: that Walter Stevens discusses in demon Lovers that that I've 1015 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 1: always found really really fascinating is that the demonic sex 1016 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,840 Speaker 1: sex between demons and humans would serve as expert testimony 1017 00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,280 Speaker 1: to the existence of demons and by extension, to the 1018 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:04,040 Speaker 1: existence of angels and to the existence of God himself. So, 1019 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,640 Speaker 1: in other words, a reckless and desperate attempt to prop 1020 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,800 Speaker 1: up their failing faiths in a time of advancing understanding. 1021 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 1: This was interesting to me because I don't usually think 1022 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: of the late Medieval period in the early modern period 1023 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:23,640 Speaker 1: as a time of wavering faith in Western Europe. I 1024 01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, that just seems like a time when 1025 01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,680 Speaker 1: when everybody was highly religious and had a lot of faith. 1026 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,960 Speaker 1: But according to Stevens, that's not necessarily the case. Like 1027 01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,280 Speaker 1: he sort of has this idea that there was some 1028 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,240 Speaker 1: emerging crisis of belief in the late medieval period. Yeah, 1029 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of the we we've talked before 1030 01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,640 Speaker 1: about like when people's faiths or questions like, the responses 1031 01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,880 Speaker 1: is oftentimes to double down on those beliefs. So we 1032 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,280 Speaker 1: we we we risked the mistake of looking back on 1033 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,280 Speaker 1: individuals in this time and saying, Wow, everyone really believed 1034 01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,120 Speaker 1: in this stuff, because look, look at the witchcraft persecution. 1035 01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,400 Speaker 1: That's the act of someone who really believed even what 1036 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,000 Speaker 1: they were doing. It could be the act somebody who 1037 01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,080 Speaker 1: was trying really hard to believe. Yeah, trying really hard 1038 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 1: desperately to to to to create physical evidence for the 1039 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,000 Speaker 1: divine um. You know, it comes back to the scripts 1040 01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:20,040 Speaker 1: right like time and time again, as the Stevens recounts 1041 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:26,000 Speaker 1: in his book, Typically women, but sometimes men were tortured 1042 01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: to get a particular script. You know that they wanted 1043 01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: particular answers and the details could waiver to certain extents. Uh, 1044 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:39,560 Speaker 1: but they needed a particular story of human demonic interaction, 1045 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:44,400 Speaker 1: physical interaction to provide this kind of proof. Now it's uh, 1046 01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,720 Speaker 1: won't won't go too far in depth on this theory 1047 01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,160 Speaker 1: because basically Walter Stevens makes it, makes his case like 1048 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,040 Speaker 1: page after page in this book. What would you say 1049 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,920 Speaker 1: are his primary pieces of evidence that the demonic sex 1050 01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:02,000 Speaker 1: panic of of this period was caused by I don't know, 1051 01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,320 Speaker 1: the the desire to bolster belief and and have evidence 1052 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,640 Speaker 1: of the supernatural. But for the most part, the case 1053 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: he makes is that, you know, it's looking at materials 1054 01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,960 Speaker 1: from the time that that demonstrate that there was a 1055 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,800 Speaker 1: lot of change, that there were that the ideas were threatened, 1056 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:21,240 Speaker 1: that these these beliefs were threatened, and then looking at 1057 01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,760 Speaker 1: some of the individual cases and showing yes, there's like 1058 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:28,280 Speaker 1: this clear agenda too to to push this script, to 1059 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,680 Speaker 1: push this this version of what happens, like they needed 1060 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:36,080 Speaker 1: they needed this commonality across all of these which demon 1061 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,919 Speaker 1: wizard demon interactions like it wasn't enough just to get 1062 01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,200 Speaker 1: the individual which to admit to sin that would be 1063 01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,240 Speaker 1: relevant in her own personal case, but that she was 1064 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:51,720 Speaker 1: also feeding a storyline like it wasn't just about hurting women, 1065 01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:56,160 Speaker 1: though certainly, you know that's part of the fabric here. 1066 01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't just about persecuting individuals who were outside iters. 1067 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't just about distracting from from other cultural um 1068 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, woes that that you know, individuals in power 1069 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,280 Speaker 1: didn't want to see acknowledge there was this idea that 1070 01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:16,880 Speaker 1: they needed to reinforce a a worldview. They needed to 1071 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,880 Speaker 1: to provide evidence for a worldview. So it's um, you know, 1072 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:25,600 Speaker 1: which which is ultimately even more terrifying than to me anyway, 1073 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,760 Speaker 1: far more terrifying than just the idea that, oh, somebody 1074 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,880 Speaker 1: believed in some crazy stuff and they did something horrible it, 1075 01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:36,040 Speaker 1: but the idea that someone desperately wanted to believe in 1076 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,240 Speaker 1: something that even is beautiful, but to get there, they 1077 01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,600 Speaker 1: would they would, uh, they would engage in horrible acts 1078 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,920 Speaker 1: and horrible ideas. It's interesting to me the use of 1079 01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:51,520 Speaker 1: the use of negative supernatural evidence as the as that 1080 01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,360 Speaker 1: which leads to bolstering the belief in God. But then again, 1081 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:58,280 Speaker 1: I guess that makes a certain kind of sense. I uh. 1082 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,320 Speaker 1: I think in the movie The Exorcist, one of my 1083 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,600 Speaker 1: favorite horror movies. You know, one of the main characters 1084 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,600 Speaker 1: father father Caress. You know, he's having a crisis of faith. 1085 01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 1: He he doesn't know what he believes anymore, but it 1086 01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,200 Speaker 1: seems to be sort of the evidence of the demonic 1087 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:15,360 Speaker 1: that essentially that restores his faith in God. That's a 1088 01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,160 Speaker 1: good point. I hadn't thought about that. And it also 1089 01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,720 Speaker 1: said be careful what you believe in, right I mean, 1090 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,360 Speaker 1: be careful what you asked for, because your belief might 1091 01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,280 Speaker 1: be bolstered in um terrifying ways. I guess that's kind 1092 01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,320 Speaker 1: of a common thread in a number of different tales. Again, 1093 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,120 Speaker 1: there are other possible interpretations as well, and and and 1094 01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:39,920 Speaker 1: other psychological psychological explanations. Indeed, one that that came up 1095 01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,120 Speaker 1: when I was reading about the wutong spirits, for instance, 1096 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,720 Speaker 1: the wutong sin is the idea that pre nuptial anxiety 1097 01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:52,560 Speaker 1: might have factored into these encounters. So in traditional Chinese society, 1098 01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:57,640 Speaker 1: women were particularly vulnerable and powerless before and after the 1099 01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:02,080 Speaker 1: consummation of of marriage, and oftentimes the their spouse was 1100 01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 1: a complete stranger, and a wutong attack served as And 1101 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,720 Speaker 1: this is, according to Richard von Glan, who referenced earlier, 1102 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,240 Speaker 1: uh quote, a culturally accepted strategy employed by women to 1103 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:19,120 Speaker 1: avoid sleeping with their betrothed husbands or to escape conjugal 1104 01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:24,919 Speaker 1: obligations altogether. Oh that's interesting, so we were so yeah, 1105 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,560 Speaker 1: So so that that is it's kind of like that 1106 01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:31,520 Speaker 1: we have this supernatural, this paranormal experience, and whether one 1107 01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:37,640 Speaker 1: actually experiences it outright, it's it's there as a as 1108 01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,600 Speaker 1: a script. You can draw upon in the same way 1109 01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:44,800 Speaker 1: that an individual that experiences, say, sleep paralysis, they have 1110 01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:46,840 Speaker 1: to explain something that makes no sense to them. They 1111 01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,520 Speaker 1: have to explain what is it hard a frightful and 1112 01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,800 Speaker 1: traumatic experience. Here's the script that they can draw upon, 1113 01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:57,200 Speaker 1: be that script demons or fairies or alien abductions. It's there. 1114 01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,680 Speaker 1: You can take it, and then it doesn't take too 1115 01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,520 Speaker 1: much convincing to convince others or to convince yourself that 1116 01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,760 Speaker 1: this is what happened. Yeah, I agree. So I think 1117 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:12,160 Speaker 1: obviously there are these very strong cultural and psychological explanations 1118 01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,600 Speaker 1: that we can have for how these types of demonic 1119 01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:19,400 Speaker 1: sex uh myths and ideas emerge. But also I think 1120 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,240 Speaker 1: we should maybe end by going back to the place 1121 01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,840 Speaker 1: we started with the idea of sleep paralysis and the nightmare, 1122 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,840 Speaker 1: because this, I think is going to be the real 1123 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:32,360 Speaker 1: core of where these beliefs come from. The neurological phenomenon 1124 01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,919 Speaker 1: of what happens to the brain during sleep, especially when 1125 01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:42,120 Speaker 1: the transition in and out of sleep is is manifesting 1126 01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,760 Speaker 1: in an abnormal way. Yeah, I think this is the 1127 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:50,840 Speaker 1: real bedrock. Um no pun intended for the for the whole, 1128 01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:57,000 Speaker 1: the whole notion of demons, angels or or aliens engaging 1129 01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,720 Speaker 1: sexually with sleepers, and a paranormal ex variance. Because here 1130 01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,040 Speaker 1: you have something that is uh that is experienced by 1131 01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,240 Speaker 1: by universally by humans. Yeah, I've got some stats in 1132 01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,800 Speaker 1: a minute about how common it is. So for anyone 1133 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:14,120 Speaker 1: who is not familiar with the the actual biological event 1134 01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:17,960 Speaker 1: of sweet paralysis, the way I always think about it 1135 01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,240 Speaker 1: is this, all right, So when you're dreaming, Let's say 1136 01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:25,000 Speaker 1: you have a dream where you're you're in Ninja, okay, 1137 01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:30,640 Speaker 1: and you're you know, you're rolling around karate chops, stab, kick, grappling, 1138 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,200 Speaker 1: hook over a wall. This is all great, right, Your 1139 01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:37,040 Speaker 1: your brain is working out daily angst or processing all 1140 01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 1: the Ninja movies it watched. You're in the course of 1141 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,919 Speaker 1: the day. But then a gang of pirates shows up. Yeah, 1142 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,520 Speaker 1: and then it gets even crazier. Right, But through all 1143 01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,760 Speaker 1: of this, you're you don't know your body and does 1144 01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,920 Speaker 1: not need to be actually throwing karate chops and and 1145 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,840 Speaker 1: kicking and and all this stuff. Al Right, Right, you 1146 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,600 Speaker 1: needed a problem that would be a problem, so your 1147 01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:01,480 Speaker 1: body has to be on lockdown. So ideally, when sleep 1148 01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,680 Speaker 1: is going down, your body is in a state of 1149 01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,120 Speaker 1: of of paralysis during the dreams except for you know, 1150 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,320 Speaker 1: movements of the eye and you know, certain respiration and 1151 01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: other involuntary um actions. But it shuts down your your 1152 01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,240 Speaker 1: motor center. Yeah, so your your body is shut down, 1153 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:22,360 Speaker 1: your mind is dreaming. So in the case of sleep 1154 01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:26,720 Speaker 1: paralysis paralysis, however, the individual is waking up, okay, and 1155 01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:28,760 Speaker 1: what's supposed to happen is all right, we're done with 1156 01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,600 Speaker 1: this simulation. You can have your body back. But with 1157 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,559 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, the body remains locked down. You can't move it. 1158 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,880 Speaker 1: You're waking up, but everything is still frozen in place. 1159 01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:44,000 Speaker 1: So people often describe this experience of having gaining awareness 1160 01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,400 Speaker 1: but being unable to move, and it's very frequently described 1161 01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,519 Speaker 1: as being a frightening experience. Yeah, and on top of that, 1162 01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,320 Speaker 1: you're waking up in the darkness or in the twilight. Also, 1163 01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,320 Speaker 1: you're you're you're in you're in that state, that state 1164 01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:02,400 Speaker 1: between dream and sleep where you're highly susceptible to hallucination 1165 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:08,639 Speaker 1: because the is you're waking up, the the abstract sleeping 1166 01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:13,680 Speaker 1: mind is trying to make sense of actual visual and 1167 01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:18,040 Speaker 1: auditory stimuli. So there's a weird shadow in your room. Well, 1168 01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,040 Speaker 1: you don't have You don't don't really have the a team, 1169 01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,759 Speaker 1: the logical brain completely online to make sense of it. Instead, 1170 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:28,160 Speaker 1: you've got like sleep ninja demon brain to try and 1171 01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:31,640 Speaker 1: make sense of all that and potentially draw from a 1172 01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,400 Speaker 1: cultural script such as demons or aliens or angels or 1173 01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,240 Speaker 1: zeus to explain it all. And again, this is not 1174 01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:41,280 Speaker 1: all that uncommon. This, by the way, is the It's 1175 01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:45,000 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the hypnopompic state, uh, the state 1176 01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,479 Speaker 1: between you're waking up, You're coming out of dreams into 1177 01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:52,560 Speaker 1: the waking world, and it's often accompanied by vivid, lingering imagery. 1178 01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:56,760 Speaker 1: It's the stuff of dreams. So the dreamers, sexual fantasies, 1179 01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:00,160 Speaker 1: belief system, pop culture are all likely to color the 1180 01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,759 Speaker 1: visions and sensations that are ripped from the dream world. 1181 01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:06,479 Speaker 1: And it's where where all the probing and the demonic 1182 01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:09,719 Speaker 1: intercourse comes into play as well. You know, I I again, 1183 01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:13,160 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of direct experience of any 1184 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:16,120 Speaker 1: of these scenarios, but I do I do have a 1185 01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:19,040 Speaker 1: strong memory from my childhood of dreaming about a toy 1186 01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:23,800 Speaker 1: that I really wanted, waking up and seeing the toy 1187 01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:28,360 Speaker 1: in bed with me. Initially you know too, and Grant, 1188 01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is a memory of a childhood dreams, 1189 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:34,439 Speaker 1: so it's you know, it's manipulated, uh like crazy every 1190 01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:37,560 Speaker 1: time I take it out, right, like all memories. But 1191 01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,919 Speaker 1: but but I do have that strong memory of waking 1192 01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,040 Speaker 1: and seeing it. So I get a life size iron 1193 01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,040 Speaker 1: Maide and you wanted it was like it was kind 1194 01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,120 Speaker 1: of like an old timey robot, you know, the kind 1195 01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:52,160 Speaker 1: of like metal walkey robots, uh, lined up robots. Yeah. 1196 01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,200 Speaker 1: I never had one except for this one that I 1197 01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,880 Speaker 1: dreamed about and saw in the waking world with me, 1198 01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,599 Speaker 1: and then it just kind of faded away. Okay, Well, 1199 01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,559 Speaker 1: so how common is sleep paralysis? That's a good question 1200 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,519 Speaker 1: to ask, Yeah, especially if you're trying to you know, 1201 01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,559 Speaker 1: prop up the idea that it's informing global myths and 1202 01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,840 Speaker 1: uh in predominant aspects of the human experience. Yeah, so 1203 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: lifetime prevalence. There's actually a paper from two thousand eleven 1204 01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,720 Speaker 1: from published in the journal Sleep Medicine Reviews by Brian A. 1205 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:25,599 Speaker 1: Sharpless and uh Jacques P. Barber called Lifetime prevalence rates 1206 01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,400 Speaker 1: of sleep paralysis a systematic review, and it looked at 1207 01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:30,799 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other studies and sort of combined 1208 01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:35,280 Speaker 1: their samples to try to get a rough picture of 1209 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,160 Speaker 1: how common it is for these things to happen. Looks 1210 01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,519 Speaker 1: like it's really common. People experience this all the time, 1211 01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,920 Speaker 1: so they say. Aggregating across studies, so with a total 1212 01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:48,080 Speaker 1: sample size of more than thirty six thousand, it was 1213 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:52,120 Speaker 1: thirty six thousand, five thirty three. They found that seven 1214 01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:56,479 Speaker 1: point six percent of the general population, twenty eight point 1215 01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:00,200 Speaker 1: three percent of students, and thirty one point not in 1216 01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:04,880 Speaker 1: percent of psychiatric patients experienced at least one episode of 1217 01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:09,919 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis in their lifetime. And then of psychiatric patients 1218 01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,360 Speaker 1: who had some form of panic disorder, thirty four point 1219 01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:18,479 Speaker 1: six percent reported lifetime sleep paralysis. So, uh, this, uh, 1220 01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:22,160 Speaker 1: this seems to indicate that this just it happens all 1221 01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,600 Speaker 1: the time. You know, tons of people have had this 1222 01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,320 Speaker 1: experience at one time or another, and really once is 1223 01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:32,280 Speaker 1: all it takes. It is a sufficiently traumatic experience, as 1224 01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:37,320 Speaker 1: sufficiently unexplainable experience. And then you also have to think 1225 01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,280 Speaker 1: of it too, like how often does it have to 1226 01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:41,479 Speaker 1: occur within a group like you just have. If we're 1227 01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:44,320 Speaker 1: to imagine like a medieval village, right, if it just 1228 01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:48,400 Speaker 1: happens to what would say of the people that are 1229 01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,200 Speaker 1: living there, Well, that's of students. So if you say 1230 01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,680 Speaker 1: seven points x percent of the general population. So if 1231 01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,679 Speaker 1: you have a village of a hundred people, eight people 1232 01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,639 Speaker 1: in the village will experience sleep paralysis at some time 1233 01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:02,599 Speaker 1: in their life. Yeah, and that's so that's that's enough. 1234 01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,439 Speaker 1: Like even eight separate families, then you have like eight 1235 01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,160 Speaker 1: separate um you know, that just multiplies the number of 1236 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:14,840 Speaker 1: individuals that are gonna be then invested in believing this experience, right, Yeah, 1237 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,280 Speaker 1: So so I think in the end, the inc use 1238 01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:21,719 Speaker 1: succubus phenomenon, it it's sort of inevitable that we arrived 1239 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,040 Speaker 1: at having some kind of belief in a demon of 1240 01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 1: this kind, because it you combine a large number of 1241 01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,200 Speaker 1: different natural elements that may have not been fully understood 1242 01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,439 Speaker 1: at the time, like the experience of nocturnal emission and 1243 01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:38,280 Speaker 1: men and boys unexplained pregnancies at a time when sexual 1244 01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:42,400 Speaker 1: activity was highly stigma stigmatized, and probably incest and family 1245 01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:47,720 Speaker 1: abuse were under reported, um babies born with congenital disorders. 1246 01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,640 Speaker 1: Of course, Walter Stephen's idea about a popular motivation to 1247 01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:56,439 Speaker 1: validate the existence of the supernatural and people's experiences of 1248 01:13:56,439 --> 01:14:00,760 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, which we've now discovered our neurological salient and 1249 01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,080 Speaker 1: very common. It just seems like a perfect recipe for 1250 01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:08,040 Speaker 1: creating this belief in these nighttime sex demons that visit 1251 01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:11,960 Speaker 1: people in bed. I would almost be surprised if humans 1252 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,760 Speaker 1: had not come up with legends like this. Yeah, I mean, 1253 01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:20,400 Speaker 1: just nothing else. Sexual reproduction is like a large part 1254 01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,840 Speaker 1: of what humans do, so of course we're going to 1255 01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:28,160 Speaker 1: have mythological creatures that get involved in it. So there 1256 01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,920 Speaker 1: you have it. Uh an introduction for some of you 1257 01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:33,800 Speaker 1: to the world of incubine and succuby. For others, perhaps 1258 01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:36,600 Speaker 1: we've added a little more depth to your understanding of 1259 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,839 Speaker 1: of this myth as it manifests itself around the world, 1260 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:43,320 Speaker 1: and uh hey, maybe it'll inspire some of you to uh, 1261 01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,519 Speaker 1: you know, create some more inventive incubi succubi bits of 1262 01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:52,120 Speaker 1: horror media out there. Certainly, also, we should remind again 1263 01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:56,040 Speaker 1: recommended reading from this episode, The Demon Lover's Book by 1264 01:14:56,040 --> 01:15:00,920 Speaker 1: Walter Stevens. It's a it's readily available. I can't remember. 1265 01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:03,360 Speaker 1: I think I got my copy, like used on Amazon, 1266 01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:04,800 Speaker 1: one of those where you can pick up, you know, 1267 01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:07,120 Speaker 1: a great volume of it for like five bucks or so, 1268 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:10,280 Speaker 1: and it has illustrations. Also, you can read it online 1269 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:12,599 Speaker 1: for free if you are able to deal with some 1270 01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:16,080 Speaker 1: hilarious spellings in early modern English. But check out King 1271 01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,320 Speaker 1: James's Demonology. It's a hoot, excellent. We will include a 1272 01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:21,760 Speaker 1: links to both of those on the landing page for 1273 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,840 Speaker 1: this episode, a's stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, 1274 01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:27,759 Speaker 1: as well as some related articles and videos and podcast 1275 01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,400 Speaker 1: episodes on the site that have dealt with um with 1276 01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:35,720 Speaker 1: the sleep, paralysis, with demons, with sexuality, and all the 1277 01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:40,760 Speaker 1: various cultural complications involved. Oh yes, and if you want 1278 01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:42,599 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us directly to let us 1279 01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,720 Speaker 1: know feedback on this episode or any other, or to 1280 01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:47,479 Speaker 1: suggest episode topics for the future. As always, you can 1281 01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:50,320 Speaker 1: email us at below the mind at how stuff works 1282 01:15:50,439 --> 01:16:04,919 Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 1283 01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:29,320 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com