1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. It's vault time. 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: This is an older episode of the show that originally 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: published May twenty six, twenty twenty two, and it's part 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: two of our series on the Cauldron. Hope you enjoy. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: is Robert. 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: two of our series about cauldrons. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: That's right. In the last episode, we talked about cauldrons 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: and mostly an introduction into the idea of the cauldron 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: is both a mundane tool for heating water and making soup, 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: but also getting in a little bit to the idea that, okay, 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: this is something that also ends up taking on sacred 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: and supernatural characteristics in various traditions. But for the most 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: part we talked about soup technology, which in and of 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: itself is pretty fascinating. 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, we pondered the foggy distant prehistory of salmon soups 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: in Japan. 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of this episode is going to 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: look at the cauldron in Chinese traditions and in Chinese history, 24 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: in mythology. So in Chinese culture and history, the ancient 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: cauldron is known as the ding, a cooking cauldron with 26 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: two looped handles and three or four legs. The three 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: legged ones tend to have a more of a circular pot, 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: while the four legged ones tend to have a rectangular 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: pot and appear more like what we might think of 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: as a chest or something in Western traditions. It's maybe 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: a little less recognizable as a cauldron if you're basing 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: your expectations on cauldrons in Western traditions. 33 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it made me wonder, like, wait a minute, why 34 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 2: are pots always round? I mean, they don't have to be. 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: So this is a pot that's got corners and it 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: looks like something that link would pop open and pull 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: a treasure out of. Oh it's the hook shot. 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean these are ultimately artifacts that have 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: a number of supernatural associations with them. But in terms 40 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: of the actual Chinese cauldrons or ding that have survived. 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: For instance, one example that came up in my research 42 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: is from the Warring States period around This is from 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: around four to thirty three BCE found in the Leodoun 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: Tombs in central China. Upon its discovery, it still had 45 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: ox bones inside it and soot on its base, meaning 46 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: that it was apparently used for cooking, perhaps as part 47 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: of a funerary feast. It was made of bronze and 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: also include did lifting hooks and a ladle lifting hooks? 49 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: Does that mean something you'd like put some hooks in 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: to move it out of the fire? 51 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 1: Correct in this In this case, now, when we get 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: into later discussions of cauldrons, you also get into the 53 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: idea of flesh hooks for your cauldron. They have to 54 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: do with, obviously, for the manipulating a flesh, you know, 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: some sort of meat that you're cooking inside of said cauldron. 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: But these I believe, Yeah, we're just to move the 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: cauldron around while it was heated. 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: Okay, So a cauldron, we know, can be used for 59 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: the chores that sustain everyday life, cooking food and washing 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: and so forth. But in Chinese traditions, cauldrons have a 61 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: much more culturally and religiously charged significance. Even though they 62 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: could be used for those same mundane tasks, they might 63 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: also decide the very fate of your existence. 64 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: That's right. And I do want to stress that a 65 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: lot of this will also end up lining up with 66 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: traditions in the West as well. That will get into 67 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: much later. But yeah, this thing that for all intents 68 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: and purposes is about heating water for soup or maybe 69 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: for laundry or something like that ends up taking on 70 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: greater significance. So in Chinese tradition, the ding became associated 71 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: with power and land ownership, and it was used not 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: only for food production and also for storage. It was 73 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: also used to make sacrifices to the gods. 74 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: And the idea of gods here might also well include 75 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: ancestral spirits, right, the sort of a blurring of the 76 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: distinction there that, like appeasing one's ancestors, was believed to 77 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: play a role in determining your fortune right now. 78 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: One of the sources I was looking to for this 79 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: episode is an article titled Visions of Hell in Asia 80 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: from twenty eighteen published in the Journal of the Oriental 81 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: Society of Australia by scholar Paul Morablai, and in it 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: the author rites quote in ancient China, the cauldron was 83 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: the alchemical recipient par excellence for the sacrifices animals and 84 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: humans required in order to transmute them into immortal creatures 85 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: when mixed with certain minerals and metals. Now, I want 86 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: to stress that he's talking very broadly here. This is 87 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: not to imply that all of these various cauldrons, including 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: the specific one I just mentioned, was used for anything 89 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: like human sacrifice. But of course, human sacrifice is something 90 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: that one encounters in the ancient traditions of every human culture. 91 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 1: Just about so. But yeah, this idea that we touched 92 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: on very briefly in the last episode, that what is 93 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: a cauldron, what is a cooking pot? But other than 94 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: something that transforms one thing into another state. 95 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: Right, so, it might transform say a tough piece of 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: game meat into a nutritious broth and a much more 97 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: tender piece of meat. And it might transform various ingredients 98 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: living and dead into a bunch of fumes, a pillar 99 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: of smoke, or a burnt offering that would be seen 100 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: as pleasing to the gods or to one's ancestors. 101 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: Correct. Now, when it comes to the sacred thing, there is, 102 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: like we mentioned earlier, it also has this prestige with it. 103 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: It signifies power, and it can also signify divine right 104 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: of rule. And in this there's no greater example than 105 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: the nine cauldrons of You the Great. Now we've discussed 106 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: You the Great before and stuff to blow your mind. 107 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: See as the legendary ruler of the Shia dynasty of 108 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: the second and third millennium BCE. Born from the belly 109 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: of his father's corpse, he's said to have quelled the 110 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: Great floods and established dynastic rule in China. His control 111 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: of the flood is attributed differently in different tales, but 112 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: I think we can summarize it as entailing the defeat 113 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: of monsters, the possible Promethean theft of the sacred self, 114 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: renewing soil from the gods, the help of various gods, 115 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: and also the use of damn and irrigation technology. So 116 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: he's you know, he's a culture bearer. And oh, he's 117 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: also said to have measured the earth, and in some 118 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: accounts he stands eight feet tall. But the other feet 119 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: attributed to You the Great is that he also cast 120 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: the nine cauldrons upon rising to power, as yang An 121 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: and Turner discussed in the Handbook of Chinese Mythology quote, 122 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: those cauldrons had the divine function to teach people to 123 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: distinguish between faithfulness and treachery, and to keep evils and 124 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: demons from harming people. So they were treated as national treasures. 125 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: And I believe it's that this story is related to 126 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: the idea that the cauldron itself is a sort of 127 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 2: symbol of power, both in a literal and metaphorical sense, 128 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: like that in the literal sense that you would have 129 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: to be a rich and powerful person in ancient China 130 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: to own one or more of these cauldrons, and also 131 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: that the cauldron was kind of like a symbol of 132 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: some one's power or political dominance. 133 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: Right, right, And in this case, there are nine of them, 134 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: because there were nine cauldrons for the nine provinces, but 135 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: then nine also had cosmologically important connections as well. There's 136 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: also this tradition of saying that the nine cauldrons sometimes 137 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: are scattered and lost, and it was said that whoever 138 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: wished to claim imperial power and rain by the mandate 139 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: of heaven would need to collect all these nine cauldrons. 140 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I recall reading somewhere that there's an 141 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: expression means something like seeking after cauldrons, or something that 142 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 2: means like ambition for power. 143 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. There are a number of different sayings in 144 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: Chinese tradition that allude to cauldrons and make use of 145 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: the motif. In the book Chinese Mythology and Introduction and 146 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: Burial ads that while you the Great forge the vessels, 147 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: they are said to have been cast by feeling the Dragon, 148 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: god of wind. The cauldrons could and would change weight 149 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: and size, or even vanish completely or reappear at will 150 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: quote according to the virtue or decadence of the dynasty 151 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: possessing them. Whoa, so yeah, this gets pretty interesting. For instance, 152 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: if a dynasty is virtuous, then the cauldrons would become 153 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: so massive that they would be almost impossible to lift. 154 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: It was said that when the child people over through 155 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: the shung, the child's virtue was such that it took 156 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: ninety thousand men to lift a single cauldron. But then 157 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: when the chin overthrew the chow, one of the cauldrons 158 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: just like immediately flew into the river. 159 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: Oh so the inanimate objects have a will of their own. 160 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: It's almost like the one ring, except that yes, way, 161 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: the cauldrons are virtuous, whereas the ring is wicked. 162 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's also specifically noted that it is the 163 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: weight that is important, not the size. So you might 164 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: have a dynasty that is corrupt, and the cauldrons might 165 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: look enormous, but they weigh little, and thus signifying that 166 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: you know that they are morally impoverished. But then the 167 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 1: opposite is also true. You might have a noble dynasty 168 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: and the cauldrons are very small, but it would take 169 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: like ninety thousand men to lift a single one of them, 170 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: because such is the virtue of these rulers. 171 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: Oh, that resonates in a very pleasing way, because you imagine, 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: like an evil dynasty having these giant cauldrons that are 173 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: easily blown over by the wind. Yeah, big surface area 174 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: and very little mass. 175 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it works on so many levels. 176 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: They are said to have been cast in iron and 177 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: also said to be illustrated with images of the gods 178 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: and forged from metals offered up by the nine regional stewards. 179 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: There is also discussion of them being important to distinguish 180 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: malign creatures, which are sometimes translated as goblins and trolls. 181 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure if that's meant to mean that 182 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: the cauldrons also depicted these quote unquote adverse beings, but 183 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: because it doesn't seem like it's explicitly stated. But at 184 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: the very least they had images of gods on them. Now, 185 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: as for the use of cauldrons and sacrifice, an burl 186 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: includes a wonderful passage from the ancient text the Book 187 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: of Songs or the Classic of Poetry. The passage in 188 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: question is celebrating the agricultural culture hero and god Huji 189 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: aka Lord Millet. Here is part of it, in translation, 190 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: of course, describing the sacrifice, our sacrifice. What is it 191 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: like some pound, some baiale, some sift, some tread. We 192 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: wash it soaking, soaking wet. We steam it, piping, piping hot. 193 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: Then we plan with thoughtful care, gathering southern wood, offering 194 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: rich fat. We take a ram to make the wayside sacrifice, 195 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: roasting and broiling to usher in the new year. The 196 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: bronze pots filled the brim, the bronze pots and cauldrons. 197 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: As soon as there aroma rises up odd on high. 198 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: Enjoys it with pleasure. The rich fragrance is right and proper. 199 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: For Hoji inaugurated the sacrifice with no fault or blemish. 200 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: His people have continued it to the present day. 201 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 2: I like the line on here about as the aroma 202 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: rises up, God on high enjoys it with pleasure. Because 203 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: that that is not unique to this poem or to 204 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: Chinese religious traditions. That it's a it's a common feature 205 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: of many religions mentioning God enjoying God, or God's enjoying 206 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: the smell of a burning sacrifice. 207 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of this that is 208 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: that is ultimately a universal. It's fascinating. Now for the 209 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: second episode in a row, I'm going to also cite 210 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: a children's book. This is another children's book. This one 211 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: is titled Two of Everything, and Chinese American author Lily 212 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: toy Hong wrote this It's fun, and she credits it 213 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: is being based on a Chinese folk tale, and I'd 214 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: love to read another telling of it, but I haven't 215 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: been able to find one. I'm sure it's out there. 216 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: But it does involve some sort of a magical pot 217 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: or cauldron in this story, which is which has some 218 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: some wonderful illustrations an elderly couple in China. And this 219 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: has a historical setting, by the way, so it's not 220 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: I don't think it's supposed to be like modern China. 221 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: But this elderly couple, they happen to happen upon this 222 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: pot or this cauldron, and they quickly find out that 223 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: anything you drop or place inside the cauldron comes out duplicated. 224 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: So you can imagine how this story goes. You know, food, 225 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: gold gets duplicated, and finally somebody's going to fall in 226 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: that cauldron. The old man falls in the cauldron, and 227 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: now there are two old men. So the story ultimately 228 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: ends on a happy note, with the couple deciding, Okay, 229 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: we're going to put the pot away. We're not going 230 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: to use it unless we absolutely have to. But by 231 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: this point they're living side by side with their own 232 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: doppelgangers who have a replica of everything that they have. 233 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: So I was looking around to try and find another 234 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: version of this story and I was not able to. 235 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: But in the process, I found another story that includes 236 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: cauldron's as a key plot point that I think will 237 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: transition into something else we're going to talk about in 238 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: a bit. It's a wonderful little story called the Wizard's Lesson. 239 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: This story appeared in the book Chinese Fairy Tales and Fantasies, 240 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: edited and translated by Moss Roberts, a professor of East 241 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: Asian Studies at NYU. The original title is Tuzu Chun 242 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: and it is included in the Suswan Kwi Lu, an 243 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: early ninth century CE collection compiled by Li Fu Yin, 244 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: though there seemed to be some disagreements on the exact 245 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: date of when this original text was published or written. 246 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: This story is awesome, yeah, I think at times per play. 247 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: I've seen some online like some sort of blog style 248 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: discussions where people are like, what is this about? But 249 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: it has some wonderful wizardry in it. So basically the 250 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: story goes like this. We have this character too, Zuchun, 251 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: and he's a scoundrel. Basically, he's spent all his money, 252 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: He's burned all his friends and family members, you know, 253 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: borrowing money and so forth. So he finds himself on 254 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: the street with nothing, and then up comes an old 255 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: man and ask him, hey, look there, buddy, how much 256 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: money would it take to set you right? Like how 257 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: many strands of coins will it take? And tuzu Chun 258 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: names a sum and the old man just kind of scoffs, 259 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, you should probably go higher than that, 260 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: and he gives him another sum, and the old man agrees, 261 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: and he gives him enough cash on the spot for 262 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: a night's rest somewhere and says, meet me tomorrow in 263 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: the market and I'll give you the full amount. So 264 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: this goes exactly as promised, and the next day he 265 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: receives his first millions from the old man. Like it's 266 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: it's a true fortune, enough for him to have a 267 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: real proper start at rebuilding everything in his life, and 268 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: then some. But you can imagine what happens next. He 269 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: immediately blows it all on a lavish lifestyle, and before 270 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: long he's back on the street again. Then here comes 271 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: the old man approaches him again, and this basically the 272 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: same thing happens once more, only this time he squanders 273 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: an even greater fortune. The third time, however, the old 274 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: man warns him that if an even greater fortune won't 275 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: do the trick this time, then there's clearly no helping him. 276 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: So finally Tuzu Chun has a change of heart. He 277 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: finally realizes, Okay, this old man has been so kind 278 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: and patient with me and just overly generous, and I've 279 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: done nothing for him. He has this change of heart 280 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: and realizes that he shouldn't be spending this all on himself. 281 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: He should try and do some good in the world. 282 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: And he tells the old Man that he is going 283 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: to do this. He's going to go help the widows 284 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: and the orphans, he's going to make men's with family members, 285 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: and then at the end he's going to meet up 286 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: with the old man wants more and do right by 287 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: him as well. 288 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: Oh okay, so you might expect this to be the 289 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: end of the story. He's learned his lesson. 290 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,479 Speaker 1: But no, it keeps going and I I, you know, 291 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: this might be a situation where you have sort of 292 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: combined stories, you know, to become one at some point. 293 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: But what happens next is the old man he he 294 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, he goes out in the world, he does 295 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: all the things he's going to do, and then he 296 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: meets up with the old Man again. The old Man 297 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: takes him up to the mountain to a splendid residence 298 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: and inside here's an alchemist furnace, guarded by a white 299 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: tiger and a black dragon. It's written that jade white 300 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: fairy women stand by. And the old man is no 301 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: longer dressed like the old man that he met in 302 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: the market. Those those three times. No, now he's dressed 303 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: in yellow and scarlet robes. He's dressed as a dallist wizard. 304 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: Oh so immediately at this point, I'm like picturing him 305 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 2: as played by Chinying Lamb from the Mister Vam movies. 306 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that would be a wonderful stern performance of 307 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: this character. So at this point, he presents tuzoo Chone 308 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: with a beaker of wine and three white pills. He 309 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: tells him to take the pills, and no matter what happens, 310 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: no matter what he sees and the visions that are 311 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: about to hit him, he must not speak. Okay, I'm 312 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: gonna read a quote from the story here. Take care 313 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: not to speak. The wizard cautioned, be it a revered spirit, 314 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: vicious ghost, demon of hell, wild beast, hell itself, or 315 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: even your own closest relatives, bound and tormented in a 316 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: thousand ways, nothing you see is truly real. It is 317 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: essential that you neither speak nor make any movement. Remain 318 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: calm and fearless, and you shall come to no harm. 319 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: Never forget what I have said. With that, the wizard departed. 320 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: Okay, so none of it's going to be real as 321 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: long as you keep your mouth shut, You'll be all. 322 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: Right, right, And then the visions begin to hit him. 323 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: So it's it's just kind of like one way of 324 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: the visions after the other. So first a swarming army 325 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: rides up on him in a ten foot tall general 326 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: in armor it's just referred to as the General comes 327 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: up on an armored horse and demands that he to 328 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: identify himself. He remains quiet. The general leaves in a rage. 329 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: And then and then to Tusu Chun is tormented by 330 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: snakes and spiders and other beasts. There's a there's he's 331 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: a rasped by storms. 332 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: This is the devil rides out, this is the Christopher. 333 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: Lee is like, he's got him in the circle. 334 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, instead, only this time it's the circle is silence. 335 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: He cannot break that silence. 336 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 2: Tuzu Chune. I'd rather see you dead than speak. 337 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: So after the storms, the general returns, and this time 338 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: he has his men place a great cauldron in front 339 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: of tuzu Chun. And in the story it's written the 340 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: general return this time leading an ox headed sergeant and 341 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: his soldiers of Hell. Together with the other weird faced ghosts, 342 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: they placed a huge cauldron of boiling water before tuzu 343 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: Chun enclosed in on him with spears, swords and pitchforks, 344 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: and so at this point they threaten him, they say, look, 345 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: identify yourself or we're going to boil you alive. He 346 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: doesn't speak, So then they drag his wife before him 347 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: and they start beating her, and he still refuses to speak. 348 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: So they chop her up into little pieces, and he 349 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 1: still doesn't say anything, and finally the general denounces him 350 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: as a quote master of the Black Arts and has 351 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 1: his soldiers behead him. Well, the scuy gory, Yeah, it 352 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: gets gory, and hurry this story, Yeah, but. 353 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: We got to remember what was said at the beginning. 354 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: The Taoist wizard promised him none of this is going 355 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: to be real, it's just visions. Just don't say anything. 356 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: Right, So then tuzu Chun's soul passes on and he 357 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: and he comes before the King of the Dead, who 358 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: identifies him. He says, hey, you're that heretic and orders 359 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: him cast into the hells. Quote Zuchun tasted the torments 360 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: of hell to the fullest molten bronze, the iron rod pounding, grinding, 361 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: the fire pit, the boiling cauldron, the Hill of Knives 362 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: the Forest of Swords, but he kept the Wizard's words 363 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: firmly in mind and bore the pain without letting a 364 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: moan pass his lips. Then the tortures reported to the 365 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: king that the punishments were completed, and at this point 366 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: the King of the dead says, okay, that's good. He 367 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: can go on and be reincarnated. Now, let's have him 368 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: reincarnated as a woman. And so he's born again as 369 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: a small female child. And now the female Tuzuchun, as 370 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: an infant, still doesn't cry out, grows up a mute. 371 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: Mary's has a child herself at this point, and then 372 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: her husband finally has an episode and accused and accuses 373 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: her of being improper by refusing to speak to him, 374 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: and murders their child before her. So finally, after a 375 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: life and yet it's brutal, and after a life time 376 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: of silence, now she finally breaks her vow and unleashes 377 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: a cry of anguish, and at this point the whole 378 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: vision collapses, and once more, here's tuzu Chun himself again, 379 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: still seated in the Wizard's pavilion with an empty wine 380 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: flask in his hand, and the Wizard's just cursing at 381 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: him for failing. He tells him, if you'd only remain 382 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: silent a little longer, you would have been able to 383 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: purify yourself of all your passions. You'd already purified yourself 384 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: of all your passions except for love, and you blew it. 385 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: And now you're not going to be immortal. 386 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: That is harsh. No, he already he got killed. He 387 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 2: had watched all his people get killed. He got killed, 388 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: He got sent to hell, tortured in hell, then lived 389 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: a whole other life. But the Wizard is like, you 390 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: just had to hold out a little bit longer. How 391 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: was he supposed to know how long it would be? 392 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: He had no idea. He was just supposed to keep going. 393 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: But supposedly he was close, like this was the last 394 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: test and he was not able to overcome it. 395 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 2: Remember how this started with this guy like blowing all 396 00:22:58,760 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: his money on parties. 397 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is a it's a weird story. What 398 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: I may I may have to look into more to 399 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: see if I can, uh, you know, grasp some of 400 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: the the deeper meanings involved here, But on the surface level, 401 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: like coming back to cauldrons, it does feature cauldrons, twice, 402 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: and both of them in a very threatening manner. Uh, 403 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: the idea that if you don't speak, I'm going to 404 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: boil you alive, and then once you're in Hell you 405 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: may be boiled as well. 406 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: A well, this would not be the only vision of 407 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: hell or negative afterlife that involved boiling, and in fact, 408 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 2: there are some famous boiling puddles, ponds, and rivers in 409 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 2: Dante's Inferno, though I don't recall there ever being a cauldron. 410 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: Maybe there is. I think they're just various boiling rivers 411 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: and puddles. 412 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: Well, Paul Mirapole mentions this. I thinks this as a 413 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 1: brief aside, because you know, I think for starters, the 414 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: papers mostly mostly dealing with Asian visions of hell, but 415 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: mentioned that there are certain saints who had visions of 416 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: hell and they might mention boiling, but they don't mention cauldrons. 417 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: And part of that could be the legacy of sacred 418 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: cauldrons in some of the European traditions, the pre Christian 419 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: European traditions that we'll discuss in the future, like the 420 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: idea being that if the cauldron is sacred, you would 421 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: not find that in hell, and of course that might 422 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: you might well ask, well, what are you guys talking about? 423 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: You You've already talked about sacred cauldrons in Chinese traditions, 424 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: and here they are popping up in Chinese. Hell, what's 425 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: going on there? Well, I will get back to that, 426 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: and I think it'll ultimately wind up making sense. 427 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 2: But yeah, clearly, whatever its particular religious significance, I think 428 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: it's also got to be highlighted in this story just 429 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: because it's like a horrific way to threaten somebody with death. 430 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: Right. And you know, certainly when we start talking about 431 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: weird forms of capital punishment and execution, I mean the 432 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: line between that and and sacrifice is often a bit blurred. 433 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: You know, both spectacles are doing something beyond simply killing 434 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: an individual or burning a piece of meat, that sort 435 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: of thing. 436 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes in history they appear to have been 437 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: sort of the same thing that, like some human sacrifice 438 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: in history was clearly carried out on people who were 439 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 2: believed to have committed some kind of crime or people 440 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 2: who were like prisoners of war. 441 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: Right, And so death by boiling pops up many times 442 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: in global tales and traditions, often as a means of 443 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: state execution. For all sorts of things like sorcerers, bandits, counterfeitters, poisoners, 444 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: and traders. Some accounts maybe legendary, but there are plenty 445 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: of very believable historic cases of boiling executions, and it 446 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: was practiced into the sixteenth century in France and Germany 447 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: as a punishment for clipping coins. This is when you 448 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: would scrape the edges off of coins and then melt 449 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: those scrapings down to new coins, a practice that was 450 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: finally defeated by milling the edges of coins. 451 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, several of the main examples I found of actual 452 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: use of capital punishment by boiling took place in England 453 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: in the sixteenth century, where it was apparently used as 454 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: a as a punishment for poisoning. There was famously a 455 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: guy named Richard Rouse who made some porridge that they 456 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: I think he was a cook, and he made some 457 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: poison porridge that poisoned like a bishop, and then just 458 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 2: a bunch of other people who happened to eat it, 459 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: and at least a couple of people died, and he 460 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 2: was put to death through a public boiling. 461 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: It was pretty gruesome, very gruesome. It's interesting, like I guess, 462 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: with the with the with the clipping of coins. There's 463 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: sort of a hey, if you boil clippings from our money, 464 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: will boil you, sort of a thing like you melt money, 465 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: you get melted. I'm not sure exactly what the poisoning 466 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: thing is, except that like poisoning was just something they 467 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: really wanted to to to to draw a line on, 468 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, and say, look, this is really bad, and 469 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: therefore you get boiled if you do it. 470 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't prove this, but I have a gut suspicion, 471 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: and it's that poisoning is a type of crime that 472 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 2: is especially horrifying to kings and royal people. You know, 473 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing they could imagine happening to them. 474 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: Right, don't mess with the king's money or the king's food. 475 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: Both must be deterred in the strongest sense. It's also 476 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: interesting looking at the European use of boiling executions because 477 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: you would see this tradition later on, as you know, 478 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: tales were being told of what is surely going on 479 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: in various foreign parts of the world, be at Africa 480 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: or Asia. You know, there would be the especially in 481 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: like sort of the pulp era. This idea of boiling 482 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: people is something that the other does whereas history tells them. 483 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly they are examples of boil in various cultures, 484 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: but clearly there was a long history of it occurring 485 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: in Europe as well. 486 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, clearly you can see that as just part 487 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: of a fiction that sort of exoticizes other parts of 488 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: the world by imagining like horrific, horrific things that might 489 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: happen there, probably without any evidential basis. 490 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, turning briefly to Greek mythology, of course, we 491 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: have to remember that this is a boiling alive is 492 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: the way that the master artificer datalist kills King Minos, 493 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: trapping him in a bath that boils him alive. Clever, 494 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: and it seems like the very sort of revenge that 495 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: datalists would use against his enemy. 496 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't remember that part of the story. 497 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I believe it is depicted in one of 498 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: the Jim Henson Greek Storyteller episodes. They have, I think 499 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: two different ones that involve datalists back to Eastern depictions 500 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: of Hell. So there's that line in Big Trouble in 501 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: Little China. I believe it's from the character Eddie who 502 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: says the Chinese have a lot of hells, and indeed 503 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: you'll find Eastern depictions of hell often will include generally 504 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: eighteen different die you or underworlds. And the exact nature 505 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: of these hells or underworlds vary from text to text, 506 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: but each one has a different flavor. They're a different 507 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: like this is where you'll encounter the hill of knives, 508 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: or this is the one where you'll encounter the boiling feces, 509 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Several of them were listed in 510 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: that passage I read earlier from the story of the 511 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: Wizard's Lesson. 512 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: And I actually don't know the answer here. Would these also, 513 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: like in some of the classic Christian depictions of hell, 514 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: have specific tortures for people who's depending on their characteristic sin. 515 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, and in case in this case the hell 516 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: of oil cauldrons would be reserved for thieves and a 517 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: few other kind of related transgressions. Now, at this point, 518 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to come back to that Paul Marabul article 519 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: Visions of Asian Hell, in which he discusses Asian visions 520 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: of hell at length, and as mentioned previously, he singles 521 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: out the alchemical nature of cauldrons and Chinese traditions which 522 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: it seems very key here. So on the mundane level, 523 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: it is a piece of technology that allows us to 524 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: transform the nature of various ingredients into food, and then 525 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: on the sacred level, it allows us to transform flesh 526 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: into something befitting of a god. And so Mirabile discusses 527 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: examples of boiling cauldrons and the hells of Tibetan Buddhism, which, 528 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: to remind everyone, does center around the continuation of souls 529 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: within the wheel of Samsara, which is a karma based 530 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: system in which souls tumble through incarnations that may be 531 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: human or animal, but may also be incarnations such as 532 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: hungry ghosts, heavenly and power devas, or indeed, you might 533 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: be reborn into the hell realms of Naraka. And the 534 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: goal is, ultimately, in the grand scheme of Buddhism, to 535 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: remove oneself from this endless wheel and attain freedom from 536 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: the cycle of death and rebirth, because that's the only 537 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: way to just sort of win. I guess you would say, like, 538 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: if you keep playing the game of Samsara, you're just 539 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: gonna pinball around, you know, so you might ascend on 540 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: high into the form of a demi god, a deva 541 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: but then perhaps all that power and wrath you have 542 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: at your disposal that ends up corrupting you and propels 543 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: your soul back down into the hell realm. So the 544 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: hell's in this case, they're not really, It's not about 545 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: permanent suffering like you encounter in some interpretations of Western 546 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: depictions of Christian hell, where it's like, well, you screwed up, 547 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: you went with the wrong side, now you're in hell. 548 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: For let's say, ever, No, in this case, hell is 549 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: a place you are moving through. Your soul is moving 550 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: through here, and you'll in all likelihood be reincarnated into 551 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: a different incarnation in one of these other realms. So, 552 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: as Mirabola discusses these visions often depicted in art, they 553 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: already have this feel of transformation or purging to them. 554 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: So demonic beings might be cooking human souls, but to 555 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: what end? Right, we have to remember that cooking again 556 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: is a transformation, and the form of cooking in the 557 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: cauldron of sacrifice is supernaturally so. 558 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, So I think I see the connection he's 559 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: making here, the same way you might say. In some 560 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: Chinese traditions use a ding or a cauldron to make 561 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: a burnt sacrifice to the gods in order to appease 562 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: them to improve your fortune. In for example, this Buddhist 563 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: vision of hell, you may also be put into a 564 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: cauldron yourself, but in a similar way are transformed into 565 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: something potentially holier. 566 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: Yes, And this ends up being reflected in Dallas traditions 567 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: as well, which in Daoism is perhaps more concerned with 568 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: transformation of the soul or self and immortality, but it 569 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: ends up being influenced by Buddhism when Buddhism enters into 570 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: China from India roughly two thousand years ago. And so, 571 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: in considering images of cauldrons in Hell and the Chinese 572 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: temple of ching Wang in Linza Shu in western China, 573 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: Mirabule says quote, in fact, we could interpret the Dallast 574 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: Hell as some enormous cauldron into which have been poured 575 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: the ingredients necessary to permutate the present state of imperfect 576 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: beings into their possible perfection by long and painstaking alchemical assimilations. 577 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: Interesting. 578 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I really love that idea. And again it 579 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: comes back to again question You might ask, well, if 580 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: some Europeans were hesitant to take a sort of divine 581 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: legacy of the cauldron and then place it in depictions 582 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: of hell. Even if you're dealing sort of different religious traditions, 583 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: why would you see it in Chinese traditions? And I 584 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: think it is because you have this different view of 585 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: what Hell is doing, this idea that these depictions of 586 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: torment are not about like in game suffering, they are 587 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: about changing you into something else, which is the purpose 588 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: of the daying, the purpose of the cauldron, whether you're 589 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: dealing with the process on Earth or something more celestial, 590 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: or indeed something in one of the hells. And I 591 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 1: should also point out, yeah, that you also see these 592 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: visions of hell outside of Chinese traditions and outside of 593 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: Indian divisions. It also pops up in Japanese views of 594 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: hell and so forth. All Right, we're going to go 595 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: ahead and close out this episode then, but i'd love 596 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: to hear from everyone out there if you have additional 597 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: things you'd like to add about Chinese traditions of cauldrons, 598 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: be they the Nine cauldrons of You the Great or 599 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: these various depictions of Dallast and Buddhist Hell. I'd love 600 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: to hear from anyone out there. Likewise, any sort of 601 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: pop culture and fiction related treatments of cauldrons that kind 602 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: of match up with what we've discussed here today totally. 603 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out other 604 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find 605 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: those episodes and the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. 606 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: On Tuesdays and Thursdays we publish our core episodes. Those 607 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: are the main episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 608 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: and then on Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays 609 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: we do a short form monster fact or artifact episode 610 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: in on Fridays, we cut loose, We put aside most 611 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: serious concerns and we just talk about a strange film. 612 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 613 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,439 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 614 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 615 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 616 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 617 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com. 618 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 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