WEBVTT - Emancipate Yourself 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.520 Greetings and welcome to Woke F with me Danielle Moody. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.159 This year, I'm striving to bring more wokeness to my 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.400 listeners and myself through the conversations I'm having on woke 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.840 a F daily that includes centering blackness and black liberation 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.159 in all aspects of life on the political spectrum. I 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.680 had the pleasure of speaking with Charles M. Blow, the 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.240 New York Times columnists and author of the new book 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.400 The Devil You Know, a Black Power Manifesto. We talked 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.640 about how the black vote is too often taken for 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.560 granted by the white male political system, and the ways 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.080 in which we can take our power back and make 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.199 our voices heard. Coming up, you'll hear my conversation with 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.520 doctor Jen M. Jackson about the revolutionary and liberatory power 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.080 of black love. As always, if you want to hear 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.920 the full thirty minute interview, head over to my Patreon 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.960 and subscribe for just five dollars a month at patreon 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:07.000 dot com slash woke AF. I keep replaying January sixth 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.800 in my head and the trauma of that day and 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.840 the fact that I knew you knew we were all 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:18.440 headed to that place, right. We know that there is 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.920 there is something that I believe that is and this 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.200 is me not putting words in your mouth, there is 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.679 something that I believe that is inherently violent about white people, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:33.320 right when faced with their privilege being taken, when faced 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:37.440 with the idea that they come White conservatives come from 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:43.000 this place of lack of scarcity, right where they believe 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.199 that anything anyone else achieves, anything anyone else is able 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:51.160 to attain that they already have, is somehow taking from them. 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.800 And I wonder how you move, like how you're supposed 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.040 to shift a society when you know that there are 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.160 people that believe inherently in your lack of worth as 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:06.240 a human. I will frame it slightly differently. I don't 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:07.840 agree with I don't disagree with that, but I was 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.120 saying slightly different than and say that there is something 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:14.880 inherently violent about white supremacy, that many white people are 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.720 invested in that and they act out that violence. But 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.040 it is the white supremacy itself that is violent. And 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.639 the beauty of this idea, as you know, which what 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.080 kept me up for you know, four or five days 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.080 with very little sleep and very little food in writing 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.160 a book post. I think when I ended. It was 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:37.720 like twenty five thousand words. Was because it was so 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.760 clear to me that we would no longer need to 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:46.600 center whiteness in black liberation. And whether or not you 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.239 want to acknowledge that it has been centered or not, 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.320 it has absolutely been centered the entire history of black 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.239 people in this country. It either centers their guilt and 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.720 us trying to get them to feel our pain. Either 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.880 centers their resistance to our progress. It centers their participation 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.959 or their permission. The only reason you don't have reparations 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:15.040 or police reform is because the white people, primarily white men, 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.800 primarily rich white men in the Senate, don't want you 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:23.080 to have it right, and that idea of the white 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:31.440 male patriarchy existing and dominating every part of American power 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.040 structure becomes the problem. They're the majority of the governors. 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.720 They're only for none white governors in America. None of 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.640 those four are black. By the way, almost all of 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.600 the ones who are, the white ones are male. White 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.880 men are the majority of state House representatives in this country. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:57.080 About fifty white women are thirty percent and the other 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.600 fifteen percent left over for the rest of us. So 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.440 when we say things like the system responds like this, 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:09.240 The system is predatory. Stop being euphemistic. The system is 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.080 white men. The system is white people who benefit from 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.760 what those white men are doing. And the only impediment 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.480 to you not being completely free for the system having 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:18.640 been set up the way it was set up in 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.680 the first place was because white men wanted it to be. 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.120 And what this does. It says there's something that you 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:29.800 can do. It does not ask their permission, that does 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:34.560 not need their participation, does not require me to pat 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:39.040 you on the back for your racial growth. This is 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.479 we can just assume this power, and that to me 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:45.760 was powerful as a person who grew up in the 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.360 set in nineteen seven, grew up in the seventies black power, 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.000 always hearing revolutionary talk but never quite understand how we're 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.960 supposed to get there. Arm revolution was never gonna work. 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:03.680 But this is legal, this is constitution, It is revolutionary. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:11.120 We can only experience black revolution and liberation by centering blackness, 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.880 not just in our politics, but in every aspect of 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.719 our lives. I was so delighted an honor to be 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.520 joined this week by doctor Jen M. Jackson, teen Vogue 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.160 columnist and author of the upcoming book Black Women taught us. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.120 Jen talks about the revolutionary power of black love, not 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.200 just in loving ourselves, but knowing and practicing the love 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.400 that we deserve as black people. For Jen, that includes 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.760 ethical nonmonogamy and polyamory. They talk about what those terms 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.880 mean and how freeing ourselves from the patriarchal conceptions of 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.240 love can be truly liberating. There was so much more 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.360 we talked about in our enlightening and engaging conversation, and 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.080 you can hear it all now at patreon dot com 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.040 slash woke af For now, we pick up with doctor 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.839 Jen M. Jackson telling us what exactly ethical nonmonogamy and 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:05.560 polyamory mean. So monogamy in the way that I've grown 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.680 to learn it and understand it how I was socialized. 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.600 I grew up in the Black Church, grew up very traditional, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.560 and for me, it was always about a kind of 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:18.000 heteronormative principle around possession of one another in a kind 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.360 of marriage or some sort of nested environment. So some 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.400 environment where the goal is inevitably an escalator that leads 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.920 you into marriage, that leads you into this lifelong commitment 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:34.120 where one person becomes your primary source for all manner 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:39.760 of emotional care, right, so physical love, sex, intercourse, things 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.160 like that. But also you know, folks use their marriages 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.520 for things like therapy, for emotional work in terms of 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.480 trauma healing, things like that. And so I witnessed this 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.800 growing up in monogamous relationships. And while folks do not 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.760 say this as the formal definition of monogamy, I think 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.400 it matters what people do in addition to know what 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:06.839 they say. For me, polyamory has been really about finding 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:11.280 ways to love expansively, right, So not just romantically and sexually, 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.840 which is what a lot of folks reduce polyamory too, 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.200 But it's about loving in a way that means that 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.120 love does not have to be closed off, categorized, boxed in. 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.880 This includes platonic relationships, This includes best friends, to includes 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.760 people who we have deep Internet connections with and we 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:29.840 go on dates and we buy each other gifts and 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:31.880 we care for one another, but we don't have the 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.200 goals of being married, right, And so being in a 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:40.640 polyamorous love style allows for folks to see themselves as 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.840 folks who are worthy of love. Right. There's something I 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:49.440 think that is particularly harmful about being black and queer 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:53.640 and monogamous in a society that all already tells us 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.280 that black folks are not valuable, worthy or worth loving. 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.440 Being a black queer woman and monogamous is very violent. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.000 The notion that one person is my one soul, make 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.520 my other half, right, because I knew that someone will 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.360 complete me, and if I don't find them, then what 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:18.800 am I incomplete? Right? Yea? Even yeah, the theory behind it, 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.960 to me, reproduces so many of our own harms and 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.480 insecurities and so much injustice toward black folk that I 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.360 can't I can't participate in it um in terms of 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.720 ethical nonmonogamy. So this came up a lot because you know, uh, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.360 Jada and Will and august Alsina had their whole dust 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:42.160 up last year then a whole right, so a whole 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.480 bunch of monogamous people got hold of it, you know, 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.800 and we're like, oh my gosh, this is what the 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.880 polyamorous people do. You know, they've discovered the word entanglement 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.640 and it was a whole thing, you know. Um, And 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.040 that's what I was actually tweeting about when you saw 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.760 that thread. I was tweeting about the that during all 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.319 of that there were people who I really respect folks 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.040 who are in the disability justice space, Folks who are 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.760 in the social justice space, raised justice space, gender justice space, 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:14.760 who were saying horrible things polyamorous people, not realizing I'm 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.880 a whole polyamorous person, a very out polyamorous person. I 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:23.040 have a husband, assist gender queer husband. We have three children. 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:26.480 We gave birth to those children. I gave birth to 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:31.120 those children, and he is a sexual. We've been together 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.959 for eighteen years. I also have a boyfriend who was 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.560 sist gender and heterosexual. He lives across the country. And 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.760 I have two girlfriends, the one who lives in the 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.679 DC area and one who lives in New York City. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.640 I love all of these people very very much, like 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.720 very deeply. These are my twin flames. These are people 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.880 who I don't want to live without. And when I 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:57.040 was witnessing this happening on Twitter, it was very hurtful 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.200 to me because people were saying things like, oh, well, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.640 polyamorous peop who are just trying to have a lot 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.640 of sex, or they're very childish, they can't commit, they 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:08.240 don't want to make that us adults have to meet. 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.880 And I think to myself, that is so interesting, because 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.400 my life I make lots of decisions, and I have 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.960 so many commitments, and I actively engage in these agreements 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:21.880 every day. And so what I want to break down 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.920 for folks is that this idea that monogamy is the 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.599 place where agreements lie is really just a superficial or 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.720 artificial boundary that people have created to make monogamy seem 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.880 like it's righteous and like it's the only way in actuality. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:42.000 Most polyamorous folks understand that agreements that we enter into, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.680 entanglements that we enter into, are so important that we 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.880 have to actively engage with them and re engage with 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.000 them over and over and over again, whereas monogamy has 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.280 this kind of hidden curriculum you're just supposed to know. 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.480 I remember growing up, you were just supposed to know 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.360 that when a boy hit you and then he liked you, 0:10:57.920 --> 0:10:59.840 or you were supposed to know that if you were 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.080 going out to problem with someone and this person want 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:03.920 to go to problem with you, then the other person 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.160 you like, you can't like them anymore. Right Like, all 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.320 these rules about how you're supposed to navigate monogamy were 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.280 imparted to you implicitly, but in polyamory, because you are 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.120 navigating these kind of open relationships. The dialogue often is 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.319 also supposed to be very open. So this is where 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:27.360 we get into ethical and unethical nonmonogamy. So, unfortunately, a 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.960 lot of folks conflate unethical nonmonogamy with polyamory and with 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:38.000 ethical nonmonogamy. So ethical nonmonogamy is not being monogamous, but 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.520 doing so in a way that is upfront, clear and 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.080 allows for consent for all parties involved. Okay, at one 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.880 point was ethically monogamous. So I did not have additional 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.480 partnerships outside of my marriage, but that I have romantic 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.920 interests people I loved, folks I went our own dates 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.839 with and I spent time with. Absolutely that I care 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.160 for them deeply, That I yes, But was I at 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:02.920 a place in my life where I could build a 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.800 life with them. I wasn't, So I was ethically nominogamous. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.760 They also knew my kids, they knew my husband, they 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:14.640 hung out with my friend groups. Right, Um, So unethical 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:19.160 monogamy is cheating, right, This is sneaking out behind somebody's back, 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:26.160 not telling being right and polyamory and ethical nominogamy are 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:32.719 not the same. As explain explain the difference though between 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.640 ethical nonmonogamy because I think we all at this point 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.560 should understand cheating, right. Everybody has experienced it in one 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:47.640 way or another, or been cheated on, or you know, 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.080 or or cheated um or witness stead. All of those 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:57.600 things explain to us the difference between polyamory, where you 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:07.720 are actively in relationship up with varied people, and ethical nonmonogamy. Yeah, so, 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.000 I mean it looks different for different people, right, and 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.800 in my life in the way that I've embodied non monogamy. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:15.800 But I always tell folks they ask, how do you love? 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:17.600 How do you do this? I say, my goal and love, 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.080 just as in everything else, is to do justice to 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.959 others and justice to myself. And so when I am 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:27.040 in an ethical nonmonogamy situation or engagement, I am very 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.680 clear about what my expectations are, how I will engage, 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.760 and what I have the bandwidth for and what I'm 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:36.480 available for. Right. Monogamy often teaches us that if we 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.240 come into contact with our soul mate or our other half, 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.080 that we're supposed to just drop everything, move across the country, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.800 forget our dreams. Right like it's now our whole life 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.040 has to change and fold itself around this new person, 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.040 because that's the only one and you better get it 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:58.160 or you lose it. Right. So, ethical nonmonogamy releases us 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.760 from some of that right because it says, no, actually, 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.560 you're your twin flame, you are your most complete part, 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.439 You are your whole, and so it puts you in 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.120 a position to have authority over your love life in 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.200 such a way where you can say, I actually am 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.880 not available to do that, but I still want to 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.199 be in your life. So what are the parameters around 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.480 which we can enter one another's lives and still do 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.600 justice to ourselves. You can still be a whole person 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:24.720 over there, and I can still be a whole person 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.200 over here. Or if we'd like to walk together and 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.400 live together, or we want to have children or start 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.880 a business, or we can do those things, but we 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.800 can be clear about where the justice looks like for 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.240 me and where the justice looks like for you, and 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.200 so for me. That's how ethical nonminogamy works. It's this 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.400 ongoing cyclical process that allows for our relationships to grow 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.880 and adapt because we our whole, right, we are whole people, 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.280 and so what we bring to the relationship is the 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.920 most important part, not the fact that we found this 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.520 person who is now going to save us and heal 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.320 us six things. And that's the that's the logic that 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.120 we have to get away from. And that's also the 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.760 logic that often compels people to cheat, right, because it's 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:14.440 the same right, ye, Right, It's built of Oh my gosh, 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.480 my body is telling me that i want something else here, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.960 that I'm missing something. But I'm afraid to actually be 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.680 honest with myself and with others about what I'm feeling. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.160 So it's inherently saying my intuition is it's not something 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.360 I'm going to listen to. I'm not doing justice. Wow. 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.760 So cheating is injustice to others and to ourselves, right um, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.480 And so ethical non monogamy gets us out of that 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.200 process of injustice. Love should be a process of justice. 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.400 I have often quoted Bob Marley's line from Redemption Song 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.680 and then to pate yourself from mental slavery, None but 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.800 ourselves can free our minds. I leave you with that 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.280 thought today. Once you are equipped with the knowledge and information, 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.200 it is up to you you to free your mind, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.480 to get woke, and to live in that wokeness. White 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.400 supremist patriarchy is a hell of a drug and it's 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.080 fed to all of us, all of our lives. But 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.400 we know there is a better way of thinking and 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.080 a better way of living. If we come together, we 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.200 can build power and make a better world for everybody. 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.640 So please do share Woke a f with your friends, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.480 your family, and if you have not already subscribe. It's 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.960 only five dollars a month to get five new one 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.000 hour shows every single week at patreon dot com slash 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.120 woke AF as I say every week. As I say 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.280 every week, and I'll be saying it until we are 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.160 free and mind, body, and spirit. Power to the people 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.840 and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:43.920 woke as fuck.