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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a mother and daughter find it difficult to

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Speaker 1: reconnect after the mother's year's long struggle with severe depression.

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Speaker 4: My body is so full of her triggers that even now,

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Speaker 4: at thirty five, I'll see something that I know she

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Speaker 4: can't handle and I will have a reaction to it.

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Speaker 5: I think for a lot of my life, I deluded

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Speaker 5: myself into thinking that my depression wasn't impacting you.

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Speaker 3: First. A quick note, theo therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice. And it is

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Speaker 3: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 3: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 3: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 3: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Guy,

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Speaker 3: Hey Laurie. So what do we have today?

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Speaker 1: So today we have a letter from a mother who's

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Speaker 1: having difficulty with her adult daughter. And we actually asked

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Speaker 1: the mother to see if her daughter would come on

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Speaker 1: with her for this session because we felt that there

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Speaker 1: was a lot going on with the daughter that we

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Speaker 1: would want to hear directly from the daughter herself.

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Speaker 3: And we thought it would be really helpful for the

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Speaker 3: mother to understand her daughter better if she could hear

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Speaker 3: from her in her own words.

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Speaker 1: Right, So here's the letter that we got from the mom.

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists, I have fought depression my whole life. However, I,

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Speaker 1: with my second husband, managed to raise a daughter, Michelle,

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Speaker 1: and she and I were very close, traveling together, texting often, etc.

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Speaker 1: When Michelle had her first child, I cared for him

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Speaker 1: two to three days a week, but I was still

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Speaker 1: under a psychiatrist's care for depression, and at one point

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Speaker 1: I was prescribed a new antidepressant. It turned out to

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Speaker 1: be what the commercials warned about may cause suicidal behavior.

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Speaker 1: I became suicidal and came very close to actually doing it.

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Speaker 1: Michelle was understandably extremely hurt that I would want to

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Speaker 1: leave her and her son. Now it's two years later,

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Speaker 1: and I'm doing everything I can to fight my ongoing depression.

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Speaker 1: I've undergone ECT and TMS, I meditate and exercise regularly.

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Speaker 1: Michelle and I attended several joint therapy sessions, which, from

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Speaker 1: my perspective, seemed to consist of the therapist encouraging my

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Speaker 1: daughter to tell me how much I'd hurt her, over

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Speaker 1: and over again. It took every ounce of self control

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Speaker 1: I had to listen and take in what she was

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Speaker 1: saying and try to understand and apologize, But I did it,

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Speaker 1: and finally, when asked if Michelle felt heard, she said yes,

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Speaker 1: and when asked if she needed anything else from me,

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Speaker 1: she said no. Still it seems Michelle cannot find it

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Speaker 1: in her heart to forgive me. She explicitly stated that

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want to know anything about my mental health

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Speaker 1: and that my depression was no excuse for my behavior.

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Speaker 1: Michelle will barely speak to me. She had an adorable

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Speaker 1: baby girl four months ago, whom I've seen twice. I've

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Speaker 1: asked several times if I could FaceTime with the five

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Speaker 1: year old who I dearly miss and have been told

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Speaker 1: she'd try to find a time, and it's happened once.

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Speaker 1: She seems to look for fault with everything I do

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Speaker 1: and is not shy about letting me know about my

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Speaker 1: failings in great detail to the fact in long accusatory texts.

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Speaker 1: The kicker is that my daughter is a therapist, but

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Speaker 1: she can't find any compassion for me. Do I keep

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Speaker 1: hitting my head against this brick wall of rejection, hoping

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Speaker 1: for an occasional crumb of a new photo or FaceTime call.

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Speaker 1: Or do I try to maintain my one last little

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Speaker 1: shred of dignity and wait for her to come to me.

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Speaker 1: I love her, and I love my grandkids, but I

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Speaker 1: have to love me too, and this is also horribly

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Speaker 1: painful and depressing.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Carol, when a parent has depression and they're

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Speaker 3: really trying their best to manage it, to treat it,

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Speaker 3: it can still have an impact on the children, and

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Speaker 3: then the children might have very strong feelings about it.

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Speaker 3: So it's one of those that strains both sides, and

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Speaker 3: both might have very legitimate concerns.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and I'm so glad that we're having them

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Speaker 1: both on because I can imagine these conversations from each side,

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Speaker 1: where Carol is saying what she said in her letter,

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Speaker 1: that I'm doing everything I can to this depression. And

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Speaker 1: when you have depression, it is not your fault, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it takes lots of different things to treat it,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes you go through different phases where the depression

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Speaker 1: comes back despite the treatment.

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Speaker 6: And so I can.

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Speaker 1: Imagine Carol's side of this, which we heard, and then

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Speaker 1: I can imagine Michelle's side of this, which is, I

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Speaker 1: understand that you suffer from depression, but it made my

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Speaker 1: childhood and my adulthood very difficult, and it's very difficult

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Speaker 1: for me to tolerate it. So I think both things

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Speaker 1: are going on, and I'm glad we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: to both of them. So let's go ahead. And bring

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Speaker 1: them in.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 3: a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench

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Speaker 3: and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 6: Carol, Hi, Michelle, Hello, Hi Laurie, Hi Guy.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and thank you both for coming on our show.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having us both.

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Speaker 1: We read Carol's letter and we've heard a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the difficulty between the two of you, and so

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Speaker 1: since we've.

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Speaker 6: Heard Carol's letter, we wanted to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Michelle, Can you tell us from your perspective what is

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Speaker 1: going on between you and your mom right now?

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Speaker 6: What's the difficulty?

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Speaker 4: The difficulty to me, I think I would characterize a

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Speaker 4: little differently than my mom did in her letter. I

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Speaker 4: think in my mind it's obviously layered and more complicated,

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Speaker 4: but the kind of foundational crux is that we struggle

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Speaker 4: to resolve conflict. In my experience, my mom is prone

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Speaker 4: to hearing feedback or hearing impact pretty punitively, and so

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Speaker 4: it's hard for me to get what I need if

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Speaker 4: she says or does something that hurts me. It's hard

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Speaker 4: for me to get a healing experience out of that

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Speaker 4: it's hard for me to resolve that.

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Speaker 3: Can you give us an example of how that plays

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Speaker 3: out in a recent example, perhaps, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, one example that she tapped in the letter was

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Speaker 4: the last time that we were together. I came down

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Speaker 4: with my son William and my daughter Lynn to spend

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Speaker 4: an afternoon with my mom and her husband, and in

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Speaker 4: the process of that day, she made a couple comments,

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Speaker 4: one in particular that hurt my feelings. And I had

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Speaker 4: sort of prepared for our day together with my own

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Speaker 4: therapist who had said, stay focused on the goal. The

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Speaker 4: goal is for William to celebrate his birthday. The goal

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Speaker 4: is for your mom to get to meet Lynn. You know,

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Speaker 4: don't get derailed by something. So I stayed focused when

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Speaker 4: the comments were made.

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Speaker 6: Michelle, can you tell us what the comments were?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, The primary one was that my mom made a

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Speaker 4: joke to Lynn, who's a baby, that she was going

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Speaker 4: to be smarter than William because he was just a

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Speaker 4: dumb boy. And she made that joke a couple of times,

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Speaker 4: and it's a joke that she's made before about William.

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Speaker 4: And we had a conversation then when I kind of

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Speaker 4: reported that that is painful.

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Speaker 7: That's a hurtful joke to me.

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Speaker 4: And so then I came home and I drafted what

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Speaker 4: I thought was a pretty thoughtful text message to me.

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Speaker 4: A while to write it, I consulted with various trusted others,

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Speaker 4: and I wrote back a kind of Hey, that comment

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Speaker 4: was hurtful. I think it's inappropriate. You can't make jokes

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Speaker 4: about my kid like that. And in her letter she

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Speaker 4: kind of tapped that as like I seek things for

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Speaker 4: her to have done wrong, and then I respond in

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Speaker 4: these lengthy, vitriolic text messages, and I think that's kind

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Speaker 4: of an example of like, on my end, I feel

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Speaker 4: like I'm doing a lot of work to come from

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Speaker 4: a fairly clear, you know, a position, and then she

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Speaker 4: chastises me as a pattern. So I think that's, you know,

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Speaker 4: over the last couple of years since her intense suicidality,

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Speaker 4: that has to me been the crux of the issue

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Speaker 4: that I think she characterizes the problem as she was

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Speaker 4: suicidal and I haven't managed to forgive her for that.

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Speaker 7: And from my perception of the.

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Speaker 4: Landscape, the suicidality was obviously sad and troubling and difficult,

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Speaker 4: but it wasn't what frustrated me. It wasn't what triggered

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Speaker 4: me in a conflict way that was around kind of

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Speaker 4: other pieces that happened during that period, and the therapy

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Speaker 4: we did together was to try and resolve those hurts.

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Speaker 4: And again, even that it sounds like landed with this

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Speaker 4: kind of punitive you know, the therapist and I kind

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Speaker 4: of lashing her with her misdeeds.

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Speaker 6: Michelle, there's so much here that's really helpful.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to a lot of this, but

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can distill this down a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like what you're saying is we had these conflicts

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Speaker 1: going on, and that we characterize what the problem is

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Speaker 1: between us differently that my mom thinks it's because of

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Speaker 1: the suicidality and what happened around that, but for me,

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Speaker 1: it's more about these the day to day things that

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Speaker 1: happened between us. And so, Carol, that was a lot

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Speaker 1: to hear, and I'm wondering if we can just take

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Speaker 1: that one little piece of when Michelle said to you,

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Speaker 1: when you say that thing about William, I find it

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Speaker 1: troubling what happens for you when you hear that. Do

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Speaker 1: you hear that as you've done something wrong? You're not

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Speaker 1: a good grandmother or are you able to hear it

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Speaker 1: as I think that it sends a message to my

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Speaker 1: son that I don't think is good for him.

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Speaker 6: How do you hear that from her?

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Speaker 5: In that instance, I'm not sure what Michelle is referring to.

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Speaker 7: It was just you and I and Lynn.

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Speaker 4: William wasn't in the room, and you were talking to

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Speaker 4: the baby, and I don't remember what precipitated the comment,

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Speaker 4: but you said, you know, and you're going to be

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Speaker 4: smarter than your brother because he's just a dumb boy.

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Speaker 5: I don't disbelieve you. I have absolutely no recollection of

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Speaker 5: saying that. It would have helped if you'd said something

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Speaker 5: at the time. It would have helped if maybe when

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Speaker 5: I asked you what it is that I said that

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Speaker 5: upset you so much that maybe I could have maybe

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Speaker 5: remembered at that time. I didn't get any feedback from

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Speaker 5: you until two days later, and I literally had no

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Speaker 5: idea what you were talking about.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that happens between the

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Speaker 1: two of you is that when you give feedback to

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Speaker 1: the other person, and I think it goes both ways,

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Speaker 1: that you both feel very hurt by the other person

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Speaker 1: that you both hear it as a criticism as opposed

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Speaker 1: to a bid to be closer. And so I think

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Speaker 1: what Michelle is saying to you is I want to

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Speaker 1: have a closer relationship with you. I want us to

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Speaker 1: feel more ease when we're together, and that means that

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Speaker 1: I want to be able to say that something made

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Speaker 1: me uncomfortable without you being offended by that. I want

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Speaker 1: to be able to share my experience with you and

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Speaker 1: have you be able to understand my experience and not

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Speaker 1: hear it as blame. Let's just say, for the sake

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Speaker 1: of argument, that you did say something like that. Can

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Speaker 1: you understand why that hurt her?

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Speaker 5: Of course, of course if anybody said anything about her,

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Speaker 5: I would be hurt, as you know, someone said criticize

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Speaker 5: my daughter, whom I love more than anything, it would

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Speaker 5: hurt and make me angry. If at the time I

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Speaker 5: had been given an opportunity to apologize, I would have

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Speaker 5: because I had never ever intended to imply. I'm not

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Speaker 5: doubting that I did it, and I'm sorry. I wouldn't

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Speaker 5: do it intentionally or even knowingly.

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Speaker 3: Carol, there's seems to be a difference in how you're

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Speaker 3: responding now then how you responded to the text message

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Speaker 3: that you got about it, albeit a bit later you

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Speaker 3: mentioned how you experience that text, But how did you

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Speaker 3: actually respond to it? Was it different than how you're

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Speaker 3: responding now?

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Speaker 5: I responded in confusion. I literally didn't know what she

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Speaker 5: was talking about, So I told her I didn't know

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Speaker 5: what she meant, and I would need clarification. I think

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Speaker 5: I was ready to apologize if i'd known what I'd

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Speaker 5: done wrong.

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Speaker 3: So things go awry on a pretty common kind of

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Speaker 3: communication between a mother and her daughter, if it happens

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Speaker 3: in things that small, and I just wonder how often

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Speaker 3: that happens. That you each walk away thinking the other

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Speaker 3: person perceived or understood something in a way that they

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Speaker 3: actually didn't, and then have a reaction to that, but

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Speaker 3: all the while you eat making different assumptions about what

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Speaker 3: actually happened. I'm wondering how common you think they might

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Speaker 3: be between the two of you.

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Speaker 5: I would say very common, wouldn't you.

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Speaker 7: I think it happens a lot.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 4: I think for me that has been the signature of

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Speaker 4: the last couple of years is that, you know, we

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Speaker 4: had a hard time recovering relationally from the suicidality. I

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Speaker 4: think in the past we've had a more functional mechanism

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Speaker 4: for resolving conflict.

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Speaker 7: I wouldn't say.

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Speaker 4: It's ever been great, but I would say it's been

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Speaker 4: more functional than it is right now.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that changed after your mom's suicide attempt.

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Speaker 4: I think that for me, my mom's kind of signature

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Speaker 4: defense to feedback is a kind of collapse into what

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Speaker 4: looks to me like a sort of victimized state, and

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Speaker 4: that since the suicidality, that's much faster to show up.

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Speaker 4: That in the past there's been more resiliency to kind

295
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Speaker 4: of hear about what's happened to me, and that since

296
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Speaker 4: then it's much quicker to go into a kind of overwhelmed.

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Speaker 4: And to be fair, I mean, she received extensive electroconvulsive

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Speaker 4: therapy and her memory was impacted, and so I think

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Speaker 4: there's a fair I don't remember, And I don't think

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Speaker 4: I need her to remember so much as I need

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Speaker 4: her to believe me, and not kind of believe me,

302
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Speaker 4: but like actually believe me when I tell her that

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Speaker 4: something has hurt me. And so for the last couple

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Speaker 4: of years, it's felt like our machine to resolve these hurts,

305
00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:04,799
Speaker 4: these miscommunications was broken. And then it's you know, the

306
00:18:04,879 --> 00:18:08,359
Speaker 4: hurts then just stack up, and then because of that

307
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Speaker 4: accumulation of it hurts, it's a feedback loop where then

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Speaker 4: I feel broadly wounded by her. I feel broadly unable

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Speaker 4: to resolve conflict with her. Like when I sent that

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Speaker 4: text message, I had little to no hope that I

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Speaker 4: would get a reply that would feel okay to me.

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Speaker 4: I believed I would get what I got, which was

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Speaker 4: I don't remember.

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Speaker 1: Michelle, how did it feel to get the response that

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Speaker 1: you got right now?

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Speaker 4: I think in one part of me it felt good

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Speaker 4: to feel acknowledged and to feel like I got what

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Speaker 4: I needed. And I think that I would be lying

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Speaker 4: if I didn't say there was a part that just

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Speaker 4: feels like it's a drop in the ocean. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I I'm wrestling with my own hopelessness around this issue

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Speaker 4: and this relationship, and so even getting what I need

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Speaker 4: in this moment does meet that hopelessness with like, well,

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Speaker 4: maybe now in this context I can get what I need.

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Speaker 7: But in anything other than a.

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Speaker 4: Pretty specif a set of conditions, I'm not going to

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Speaker 4: be able to get what I need.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can go a little farther back

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Speaker 1: when you talk about the ocean. I think about the

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Speaker 1: breadth of your relationship with your mom and the history.

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Speaker 1: Were you aware of your mom's depression when you were

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Speaker 1: growing up, and at what point did you become aware

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Speaker 1: of it, and how did the two of you start

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Speaker 1: talking about that and at what point in your lives.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, i'man certainly aware of it.

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Speaker 4: I remember now with the vantage point of adulthood, I

337
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Speaker 4: can remember when it was probably pretty.

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Speaker 6: Bad, which is when you were how old My.

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Speaker 4: Parents divorced at when I was four, And the memories

340
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Speaker 4: I have are of like being alone, you know, while

341
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Speaker 4: my mom was kind of in her room and I'm

342
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Speaker 4: guessing I was pretty young. She did a good job,

343
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Speaker 4: and she did a lot of work I think to

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Speaker 4: try and parent through it, and I think that depression

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Speaker 4: is very difficult to power through. I think I became

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Speaker 4: more sort of explicitly aware of it probably when I

347
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Speaker 4: was a teenager. I think we started talking about it more.

348
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Speaker 4: I'm guessing as I transitioned into adulthood. But it's certainly

349
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Speaker 4: been a part of the story for a long time

350
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Speaker 4: in my mind.

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Speaker 3: Carol, I want to ask you something. Michelle is saying

352
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Speaker 3: that over the past couple of years, there's been a

353
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Speaker 3: bit of a change in that. Previous to that, when

354
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Speaker 3: she would bring things up to you about things that

355
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Speaker 3: might have hurt her or upset her, you had a

356
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Speaker 3: bit more resilience to absorb them and then to be

357
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Speaker 3: able to respond to them. And she says, now you

358
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Speaker 3: might crumble a bit. And while that's completely understandable given

359
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Speaker 3: what you've been through, that it leaves her feeling like

360
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Speaker 3: it's very, very difficult to bring things up. And I

361
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Speaker 3: want to ask you whether you noticed a change in

362
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Speaker 3: how much you're able to hear the things Michelle brings

363
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Speaker 3: up over the past couple of years.

364
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Speaker 5: I would frame the whole thing much differently.

365
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Speaker 3: Obviously.

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Speaker 5: I feel that since we had my breakdown, I call it,

367
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Speaker 5: I came very close to committing suicide. I did not

368
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Speaker 5: commit suicide, but and I did go through all the

369
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Speaker 5: ect I've been through TMS twice, and I do get

370
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Speaker 5: overwhelmed easily as I am now. However, when Michelle and

371
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Speaker 5: I argue now or talk now, she tells me that

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Speaker 5: she's not interested in hearing my explanations, only my apologies.

373
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Speaker 5: So I feel very stuck in that I've done something

374
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Speaker 5: that bothers her bringing over face masks at the beginning

375
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Speaker 5: of the pandemic when they were hard to find. After

376
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Speaker 5: she'd said she didn't want masks, I brought some over anyway,

377
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Speaker 5: because I've made some for all my friends and family,

378
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Speaker 5: and of course I would make some for the people

379
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Speaker 5: that I love the most. She was very angry with

380
00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 5: me bringing over mass but she told me she doesn't

381
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Speaker 5: want to listen. That the CDC said this, and that

382
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Speaker 5: that's an explanation, that's an excuse, that's any explanation is

383
00:22:11,719 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 5: an excuse for inexcusable behavior, is what she's told me.

384
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Speaker 5: So I feel very stuck in that I have no

385
00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:20,719
Speaker 5: way to respond when she tells me I've done something wrong.

386
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Speaker 5: I can apologize if I understand what I did and

387
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Speaker 5: believe it was wrong and that I need to apologize.

388
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Speaker 3: I'm wondering how often you feel you have a clear

389
00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:35,719
Speaker 3: understanding of what it is, specifically that upset about something.

390
00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:38,239
Speaker 3: I think you not very clearly if she gets upset

391
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Speaker 3: or angry with you. I'm wondering how much you are

392
00:22:42,919 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 3: clear about what it is, specifically that what was angering

393
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Speaker 3: about you bringing masks over, even if such and such.

394
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Speaker 3: In other words, do you ask questions. When that happens,

395
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Speaker 3: do you say to her, you know, Michelle, I can

396
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Speaker 3: see her upset. I really want to understand it. Could

397
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Speaker 3: you please help me understand it? Because if I can,

398
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Speaker 3: I'll try very much not to do that again. But

399
00:23:01,479 --> 00:23:04,319
Speaker 3: right now I'm a little confused, So indulge me. Could

400
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 3: you please explain that to me? Is there a version

401
00:23:07,199 --> 00:23:10,279
Speaker 3: of that that you try to you is when those

402
00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:11,279
Speaker 3: things happen between you?

403
00:23:12,479 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 5: I think sometimes yes and sometimes no. She was very

404
00:23:15,239 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 5: clear that she was mad at me because I disregarded her. No,

405
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Speaker 5: I don't want any masks, and that's why she was

406
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Speaker 5: mad at me. But I wasn't allowed to explain what

407
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Speaker 5: I felt was very reasonable thing to do.

408
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 1: This reminds me a lot of what happens between couples

409
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Speaker 1: where people give and receive love in different ways. And

410
00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:40,759
Speaker 1: you are clearly just trying to show her I love you,

411
00:23:40,879 --> 00:23:43,839
Speaker 1: I care about you, I want you to stay safe.

412
00:23:43,919 --> 00:23:47,999
Speaker 1: This is my way of protecting you. And she was saying,

413
00:23:48,639 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: but I told you that's not the way that I

414
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,719
Speaker 1: want to be loved. And when people say this is

415
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: the way I want to be loved, and people don't

416
00:23:59,399 --> 00:24:02,079
Speaker 1: get that kind of love and instead, they get something else,

417
00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:05,839
Speaker 1: they don't feel loved, And so I think what's very

418
00:24:05,879 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: confusing for the person who is giving the love is

419
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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm given all this delicious love to

420
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Speaker 1: my daughter and I'm getting an angry response. This makes

421
00:24:15,439 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 1: no sense to me, And so I think what's going

422
00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:23,959
Speaker 1: on is that sometimes it might be hard to adjust

423
00:24:24,199 --> 00:24:27,799
Speaker 1: how you give your love to Michelle in a way

424
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:31,319
Speaker 1: that she wants to receive it, and to you, it

425
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,719
Speaker 1: starts to feel like, well, I'm walking on eggshells. I

426
00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:35,599
Speaker 1: never know what to do. No matter what I do

427
00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: is wrong. But I also think that she's telling you

428
00:24:39,279 --> 00:24:42,279
Speaker 1: what she wants, Like she said I don't want you

429
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: to bring masks and you did anyway.

430
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Speaker 6: Now, I know it.

431
00:24:45,879 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 1: Sounds very trivial. The actual event isn't that significant, but

432
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Speaker 1: the interaction, the relational piece of it, is a bigger

433
00:24:54,919 --> 00:24:58,239
Speaker 1: pattern of can you hear me? Can you see me?

434
00:24:58,319 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: Can you understand me? And when you disregard what I've said,

435
00:25:03,479 --> 00:25:06,759
Speaker 1: even though you thought it was a loving gesture, it

436
00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:10,079
Speaker 1: feels like you can't see me at all, And so

437
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: I wonder what happens for you, Carol. When Michelle says

438
00:25:14,199 --> 00:25:16,319
Speaker 1: I don't want you to bring over the masks. I

439
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: have a feeling you get angry with her too.

440
00:25:19,399 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 5: It was a simple two weeks earlier, I'd said, Hey,

441
00:25:22,239 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 5: I'm making masks. Do you want some? She said no,

442
00:25:23,719 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 5: I don't think we need them. Two weeks go by,

443
00:25:25,959 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 5: CDC says, yes, everybody should wear masks. I'm making tons

444
00:25:28,639 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 5: of masks. I'm dropping them off. It wasn't a no,

445
00:25:30,959 --> 00:25:33,039
Speaker 5: don't bring them. It was a no, I don't think so.

446
00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:36,079
Speaker 5: So I didn't feel quite as strong. I brought a

447
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 5: bunch of other stuff too. I brought cookies for the kids,

448
00:25:38,479 --> 00:25:40,959
Speaker 5: and the only thing she responded to was the masks,

449
00:25:40,959 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 5: and that was with anger. So yeah, I did feel

450
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 5: hurt and angry.

451
00:25:46,599 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 1: When we go back to the ocean, and I'm referring

452
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: again to the ocean as the history between the two

453
00:25:51,959 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: of you, I think one of the things that happens

454
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,239
Speaker 1: when you have a family where one of the parents

455
00:25:59,439 --> 00:26:04,319
Speaker 1: is suffering from depression is that the child often feels

456
00:26:04,439 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: like my needs are not being seen right now, are

457
00:26:09,679 --> 00:26:13,519
Speaker 1: not being met because my parent isn't able to do

458
00:26:13,639 --> 00:26:17,599
Speaker 1: that for me right now. And sometimes if that doesn't

459
00:26:17,639 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: get worked through, later, lots of things start to feel

460
00:26:21,479 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: like that that maybe aren't the same thing, but feel

461
00:26:24,239 --> 00:26:26,519
Speaker 1: like the same thing or reminiscent of the same thing.

462
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,839
Speaker 1: And so Michelle, maybe someone who didn't grow up with

463
00:26:31,199 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: a mother who was suffering from depression and didn't experience

464
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,559
Speaker 1: that feeling of a loneness, that feeling of I'm not

465
00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:39,759
Speaker 1: sure if she sees me, I'm not sure she hears

466
00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:43,839
Speaker 1: me that. Anytime something like that happens, it becomes very

467
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:46,559
Speaker 1: big in your mind, whereas somebody else might have said, oh,

468
00:26:46,599 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: look she brought over cookies and toys, and yeah, they're

469
00:26:48,919 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: a master I don't really need them, but it's okay.

470
00:26:50,719 --> 00:26:52,079
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not going to say anything about that

471
00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 1: because it doesn't bother me so much. Look at all

472
00:26:53,959 --> 00:26:56,799
Speaker 1: the nice things she brought over. But for you, it was, oh,

473
00:26:56,999 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: here's another example of that. And so I think it's

474
00:27:00,399 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: important that we talk a little bit about how Carol's

475
00:27:03,399 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: depression has impacted the two of you, because I think, Michelle,

476
00:27:08,879 --> 00:27:14,519
Speaker 1: it's clear that it was lonely and upsetting and scary,

477
00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:18,279
Speaker 1: and we'll hear more about that. But I wonder if

478
00:27:18,479 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: you say you don't want to hear about your mom's experience.

479
00:27:22,199 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 1: And I actually think that it would be helpful. And

480
00:27:24,999 --> 00:27:27,519
Speaker 1: I don't know if you'll agree to do that here

481
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: on this call, but my feeling is that if you

482
00:27:30,959 --> 00:27:33,519
Speaker 1: understood a little bit more about.

483
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:36,759
Speaker 6: It, that it wouldn't overpower.

484
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:40,079
Speaker 1: Your needs, but it would just be something that would

485
00:27:40,199 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: sit side by side.

486
00:27:41,639 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 6: With your needs.

487
00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:46,239
Speaker 1: Are you interested in hearing more about that?

488
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 7: I'm not sure.

489
00:27:48,919 --> 00:27:50,279
Speaker 5: I'm not sure, Michelle.

490
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:55,519
Speaker 3: And I can tell that you're someone who's actually spent many, many,

491
00:27:55,719 --> 00:28:01,039
Speaker 3: many hours working on your relationship with your mom without her,

492
00:28:01,679 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 3: in your therapy, in your head with friends, and you

493
00:28:06,199 --> 00:28:09,799
Speaker 3: seem to me like you're someone who's done so much

494
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:12,839
Speaker 3: of this thinking and so much of that work that

495
00:28:12,919 --> 00:28:16,319
Speaker 3: you're kind of exhausted and you're not sure whether you

496
00:28:16,479 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 3: have much rope left to make more effort. And so

497
00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: I want us to try and use this time to

498
00:28:22,439 --> 00:28:27,519
Speaker 3: see if we can have a conversation now that would

499
00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:30,279
Speaker 3: help you replenish some of those energies and give you

500
00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 3: a little bit of hope that it's a worthwhile expenditure.

501
00:28:34,199 --> 00:28:37,039
Speaker 3: Is that something you feel that you might be up for.

502
00:28:38,479 --> 00:28:42,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do feel I feel exhausted. To kind of

503
00:28:42,959 --> 00:28:48,279
Speaker 4: weave into Laurie your prompt about what this was like

504
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:50,359
Speaker 4: early on, if I can start.

505
00:28:50,119 --> 00:28:55,359
Speaker 1: There before you start, Michelle, I just want to say, Carol,

506
00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: whether Michelle can see it or not, Guy, and I

507
00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:05,199
Speaker 1: know that you did everything you could to work through

508
00:29:05,559 --> 00:29:10,359
Speaker 1: your depression and also be a good mine to Michelle,

509
00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:14,559
Speaker 1: and that it was incredibly hard. And so if you

510
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 1: can hear what Michelle is saying, as I want to

511
00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:20,119
Speaker 1: hear what my child's experience was because it will bring

512
00:29:20,159 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: me closer to her, not because she's going to dump

513
00:29:22,479 --> 00:29:25,039
Speaker 1: all her anger and resentment on me, but because I

514
00:29:25,079 --> 00:29:27,599
Speaker 1: want to try to understand. If I were listening as

515
00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 1: an outsider and I heard this young woman talking about

516
00:29:31,479 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 1: her experience, how would I hear that versus hearing it

517
00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:34,839
Speaker 1: as her mother.

518
00:29:35,919 --> 00:29:37,439
Speaker 6: You don't have to agree with her.

519
00:29:37,399 --> 00:29:41,279
Speaker 1: Version of events, meaning the content of it, but what

520
00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:44,039
Speaker 1: you can't argue with is how she feels. Okay, what's

521
00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:47,119
Speaker 1: important is that you can see that she feels this

522
00:29:47,199 --> 00:29:50,519
Speaker 1: way and understand this is how she feels. And again,

523
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:53,279
Speaker 1: if you are hearing this from somebody else's daughter and

524
00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:55,839
Speaker 1: not your own, you would probably have a lot of

525
00:29:55,879 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: compassion for her.

526
00:29:57,599 --> 00:29:59,519
Speaker 6: Okay, So let's start there.

527
00:30:01,079 --> 00:30:07,279
Speaker 4: The memories I have about my mom's depression are less

528
00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:12,359
Speaker 4: about the kind of presentation of depression, of being sad

529
00:30:12,479 --> 00:30:14,759
Speaker 4: or withdrawn or struggling to get out of bed.

530
00:30:15,479 --> 00:30:20,279
Speaker 7: They have more to do with irritability.

531
00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:24,599
Speaker 4: And a kind of almost explosive withdrawal, like I would

532
00:30:24,679 --> 00:30:27,879
Speaker 4: say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. And

533
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:30,879
Speaker 4: I have a lot of memories of my mom retreating

534
00:30:30,879 --> 00:30:33,359
Speaker 4: to her room and shutting the door when I had

535
00:30:33,439 --> 00:30:33,879
Speaker 4: done something.

536
00:30:33,919 --> 00:30:36,399
Speaker 3: Now could do anything specific, you could paint a picture

537
00:30:36,439 --> 00:30:36,799
Speaker 3: for us with.

538
00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:40,879
Speaker 4: There was a time I remember making some kind of

539
00:30:40,999 --> 00:30:46,559
Speaker 4: comment about her appearance and meant it as a like,

540
00:30:46,679 --> 00:30:49,679
Speaker 4: look at a thing I noticed, I'm so clever, and

541
00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:53,519
Speaker 4: it offended her, and I remember her getting really angry

542
00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:56,919
Speaker 4: and like throwing me off of her lap and sort

543
00:30:56,959 --> 00:31:00,319
Speaker 4: of going to a room and shutting the door. I

544
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:05,279
Speaker 4: think that the unifying feeling is needing to be a

545
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 4: buffer between my mom and the world. I'm an only child,

546
00:31:09,719 --> 00:31:13,079
Speaker 4: and I think that my mom she presents a lot

547
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:17,439
Speaker 4: of helplessness, and she presents a lot of anger towards

548
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:21,399
Speaker 4: the people around her or strangers. I can remember being

549
00:31:21,479 --> 00:31:25,799
Speaker 4: young and her being offended by strangers that we would encounter,

550
00:31:26,479 --> 00:31:29,279
Speaker 4: and she would sort of start a confrontation with them,

551
00:31:29,479 --> 00:31:34,119
Speaker 4: and that being really scary, the feeling of I need

552
00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:37,919
Speaker 4: to be between the world and my mom or she's

553
00:31:37,959 --> 00:31:42,999
Speaker 4: not going to be okay, and the caretaking and the managing,

554
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:48,319
Speaker 4: the knowing which topics of conversation can't come up, knowing

555
00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:54,159
Speaker 4: what content imagery she can't tolerate, knowing my body is

556
00:31:54,239 --> 00:31:58,399
Speaker 4: so full of her triggers that even now at thirty five,

557
00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 4: I'll see something that I know she can't handle and

558
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 4: I will have a reaction to it.

559
00:32:05,239 --> 00:32:07,919
Speaker 6: What's an example of that, these triggers.

560
00:32:09,679 --> 00:32:15,839
Speaker 4: Like strong smells, loud noises, animals being hurt. I've had

561
00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 4: a conversation with any like guy I've ever brought home

562
00:32:19,479 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 4: about the list of things you can't talk about, you

563
00:32:21,999 --> 00:32:26,119
Speaker 4: can't bring up because she will do this kind of

564
00:32:26,159 --> 00:32:34,159
Speaker 4: explosive withdrawal. And that fragility is a major part of

565
00:32:34,239 --> 00:32:38,359
Speaker 4: my childhood and our relationship, and my relationship with my

566
00:32:38,399 --> 00:32:42,439
Speaker 4: stepdad too, that I think he has fully embodied the

567
00:32:42,519 --> 00:32:47,359
Speaker 4: role of her protector in a way that reinforces the

568
00:32:47,479 --> 00:32:49,879
Speaker 4: rules about what I'm allowed to be and what I'm

569
00:32:49,879 --> 00:32:52,199
Speaker 4: allowed to say and who I'm allowed to You know,

570
00:32:52,879 --> 00:32:55,199
Speaker 4: he does the same thing he's bought in.

571
00:32:55,879 --> 00:33:00,999
Speaker 1: How old were you when your mom married your stepdad.

572
00:33:03,279 --> 00:33:06,879
Speaker 4: Seven when we were married. For me, that's more of

573
00:33:06,959 --> 00:33:09,679
Speaker 4: the thing is like, not only do if I not

574
00:33:09,719 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 4: get to be the kid who gets to be messy

575
00:33:12,439 --> 00:33:16,639
Speaker 4: and get contained, but I have to contain. I mean,

576
00:33:16,719 --> 00:33:21,879
Speaker 4: even with the suicidality. One of the triggers was that

577
00:33:21,999 --> 00:33:25,439
Speaker 4: she didn't have her therapist call her husband. She had

578
00:33:25,479 --> 00:33:28,279
Speaker 4: her call me to rescue her.

579
00:33:29,479 --> 00:33:33,399
Speaker 3: So, Carol, before you shake your head, because I think

580
00:33:33,439 --> 00:33:36,319
Speaker 3: I saw you shake your head a bit, I'm reminding

581
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:38,919
Speaker 3: you of your task right here. And your task is

582
00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:42,079
Speaker 3: only well not to listen and to understand. And this

583
00:33:42,199 --> 00:33:43,279
Speaker 3: is what I want you to do right now. And

584
00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:45,439
Speaker 3: I'm going to acknowledge that I'm asking you to do

585
00:33:45,479 --> 00:33:48,999
Speaker 3: something very difficult because I'm sure you have a lot

586
00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:51,359
Speaker 3: to say about everything Michelle said. But what I think

587
00:33:51,399 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 3: Michelle needs to hear right now is that you understand

588
00:33:55,119 --> 00:33:58,159
Speaker 3: what that experience was like for her. You can explain

589
00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:00,079
Speaker 3: what it was about for you, but I don't want

590
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,319
Speaker 3: you to. I want you to just keep that part

591
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:04,039
Speaker 3: in your head. What I want you to express is

592
00:34:04,159 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 3: just that you get that from her perspective as a

593
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 3: child growing up feeling as she did that you understand

594
00:34:11,919 --> 00:34:13,959
Speaker 3: what her experience is like, and I want you to

595
00:34:13,999 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 3: do that in a way that you can best make

596
00:34:16,799 --> 00:34:19,599
Speaker 3: her feel understood. Could you give that a try? Please?

597
00:34:20,279 --> 00:34:23,039
Speaker 5: Yes, I will, and I apologize for the I thought

598
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 5: I was correcting a misstatement.

599
00:34:26,279 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: I think that every time you correct her, she feels

600
00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:33,079
Speaker 1: like you're not seeing me. The disputing of the facts

601
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,079
Speaker 1: is always going to happen, So that's not the issue.

602
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: The main message, if I could put it in one sentence,

603
00:34:39,319 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: would be I have felt this burden of not being

604
00:34:43,839 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 1: able to be a kid as I was growing up

605
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 1: because I always worried about you. I loved you and

606
00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: I resented you because I was so worried about what

607
00:34:57,879 --> 00:35:01,679
Speaker 1: would trigger you. I wonder how you might respond to

608
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: her just knowing that was how she felt, whether or

609
00:35:04,959 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: not you agree that that was the message that you

610
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: were sending her. And it has affected her well into

611
00:35:11,479 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 1: her adulthood, and so I wonder if you could just

612
00:35:14,999 --> 00:35:16,639
Speaker 1: respond from a place of love.

613
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 5: Right now, I think for a lot of my life,

614
00:35:22,759 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 5: I deluded myself into thinking that my depression wasn't impacting you.

615
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:30,559
Speaker 5: But I mean, it makes perfect sense to me that

616
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 5: even if I thought I was doing great, you know,

617
00:35:32,399 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 5: taking you to your dance lessons and stuff. I don't

618
00:35:34,879 --> 00:35:37,679
Speaker 5: remember ever pushing you off my lap. I can't imagine

619
00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 5: that happening.

620
00:35:38,999 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: But I want to stop here because I think this

621
00:35:40,839 --> 00:35:43,559
Speaker 1: is what happens between the two of you.

622
00:35:43,559 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 3: You were talking about you, and I want you to

623
00:35:45,799 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 3: talk just about Michelle.

624
00:35:47,879 --> 00:35:49,999
Speaker 1: When you add things like well, I was taking you

625
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: to dance lessons, you're trying to say I wasn't a

626
00:35:52,879 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: horrible mom. I tried my best. I was doing these things.

627
00:35:55,839 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 1: And I don't want you to have to feel like

628
00:35:57,519 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: you're defending yourself right now, because she's not asking you

629
00:36:00,879 --> 00:36:03,999
Speaker 1: to defend yourself. She's saying, can you see me? And

630
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: so I think what she's wanting is to know that

631
00:36:08,479 --> 00:36:12,159
Speaker 1: you took it in what she said, and that you

632
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: have some kind of compassion for her, without disputing anything

633
00:36:16,999 --> 00:36:18,679
Speaker 1: she said, but to stay with her feeling.

634
00:36:19,759 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 5: What I kind of started to say was that I

635
00:36:21,999 --> 00:36:24,999
Speaker 5: deluded myself into thinking I had protected you from that,

636
00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:28,079
Speaker 5: but I know that's not true, and.

637
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:30,479
Speaker 3: Tell her in which ways it's not true.

638
00:36:31,799 --> 00:36:35,199
Speaker 5: I would have this explosive, whatever you called it, I

639
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,519
Speaker 5: didn't withdrawal an explosive withdrawal I mean, that sounds like

640
00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 5: something I would do, and I'm sorry for that. I

641
00:36:40,879 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 5: know a couple of the instances that you were talking

642
00:36:43,439 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 5: about with strangers were bad for you. They were mitigating circumstances.

643
00:36:49,279 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 5: But that's not the point.

644
00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, hold on, so you're right, that's not the point.

645
00:36:52,919 --> 00:36:55,519
Speaker 1: And so that's where you, guys get tripped up, is

646
00:36:55,919 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: every time you're able to connect with her, you start

647
00:36:59,919 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 1: to feel shame. And so we want you to just

648
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: take the shame out of this, because I don't think

649
00:37:05,799 --> 00:37:09,119
Speaker 1: that Michelle is here to say you were a bad mom.

650
00:37:09,399 --> 00:37:10,519
Speaker 6: That's not what she's here to say.

651
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: She's trying to say, our relationship is impacted by what

652
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: happened between us. And the reason that I get so

653
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:19,519
Speaker 1: upset when I say don't bring the masks and you

654
00:37:19,599 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: bring the masks is because of this stuff that hasn't

655
00:37:22,759 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: been acknowledged before. And so every time you add a

656
00:37:27,759 --> 00:37:30,999
Speaker 1: comment like there were mitigating circumstances, or I took her

657
00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: to dance class, you're missing the point that she's making.

658
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: And I can see on her face she talked about

659
00:37:38,799 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 1: the word exhaustion, where she's like, here we go again,

660
00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: And so it's really hard. But if you can just

661
00:37:45,839 --> 00:37:48,199
Speaker 1: work through this one conversation in a different way, I

662
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: think it will give you a template for something different

663
00:37:51,359 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 1: to happen between the two of you. And I think

664
00:37:53,919 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: that if you can't, you won't be able to make

665
00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:57,999
Speaker 1: much progress.

666
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,079
Speaker 5: I don't know how I cannot feel shameed that my

667
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:06,039
Speaker 5: depression impacted you the way it did.

668
00:38:06,799 --> 00:38:10,039
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so Carl, you want to put yourself in

669
00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 3: Michelle's place as a child, and you want to revisit

670
00:38:13,799 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 3: the experiences that you remember through Michelle's eyes.

671
00:38:18,279 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 5: This is hard because I for a lot of reasons, there's.

672
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,599
Speaker 1: So much noise in your head about trying to defend yourself.

673
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: Michelle has not forgotten that you took her to dance class.

674
00:38:31,319 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: So if you think about the difference between a raw

675
00:38:33,359 --> 00:38:36,599
Speaker 1: egg and a hard boiled deck, when someone is depressed,

676
00:38:36,919 --> 00:38:39,519
Speaker 1: they're like a raw egg. You drop it, it cracks open.

677
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:42,679
Speaker 1: It's that explosive withdrawal that Michelle's talking about. Is about

678
00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:47,119
Speaker 1: that very knee jerk reaction. You get injured very easily

679
00:38:47,279 --> 00:38:50,479
Speaker 1: because you're like a raw egg. Okay, when you're not

680
00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 1: feeling so depressed, you're like a hard boil deck. You

681
00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:55,519
Speaker 1: drop it might get a little dinged up, but it's

682
00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:58,039
Speaker 1: not going to crack open like the raw egg. And

683
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: what Michelle's trying to describe to you is the times

684
00:39:01,639 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: when you were like a raw egg. Can you respond

685
00:39:04,799 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: to what that must have been like for her?

686
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:16,079
Speaker 5: I can try, Michelle. I'm just I'm very sorry that

687
00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 5: it was like that for you. Everything that you said

688
00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:26,079
Speaker 5: sounds completely right. The list of things you'd have to

689
00:39:26,119 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 5: talk to your boyfriends about, I'm sorry about that. I'm

690
00:39:29,839 --> 00:39:32,479
Speaker 5: sorry you had to protect them from me, or me

691
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 5: from them, or however it was. I'm sorry. You shouldn't

692
00:39:34,479 --> 00:39:43,079
Speaker 5: have had to protect me. I should have been protecting you. Yeah,

693
00:39:43,879 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 5: my second husband was and still does do that protecting thing,

694
00:39:53,959 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 5: and that's made it harder for you. I just feel

695
00:39:58,399 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 5: bad that. I'm sorry. I could have been the best

696
00:40:01,759 --> 00:40:07,559
Speaker 5: mom for you that you deserve to have had. I

697
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:10,679
Speaker 5: wanted to be the best mom for you, and I

698
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 5: know I wasn't. I know that there are hard times

699
00:40:15,919 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 5: for you because of my depression, and I'm very very

700
00:40:18,359 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 5: sorry for those.

701
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 3: Carol, were you aware that Michelle felt throughout so much

702
00:40:25,879 --> 00:40:31,519
Speaker 3: of her childhood that responsibility to protect you, to buffer,

703
00:40:32,279 --> 00:40:35,519
Speaker 3: to look out for you, and your interactions with the world.

704
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 5: No, and that's what's been so weird for me, is

705
00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 5: it's been learning just in the last few years. I think,

706
00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:46,199
Speaker 5: as I was saying, I deluded myself thinking that I

707
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:51,119
Speaker 5: had kept her safe from that from my depression. But

708
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 5: it's been something that I've lived with, so therefore she

709
00:40:54,279 --> 00:41:00,159
Speaker 5: has lived with, you know, her whole life. And I

710
00:41:00,439 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 5: like to think past Haance liked that it wasn't impacting her.

711
00:41:05,839 --> 00:41:09,559
Speaker 3: And that's the thing. I don't know a situation which

712
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:13,559
Speaker 3: a parent had really significant depression that did not have

713
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:17,079
Speaker 3: an impact on their child. And I'm suggesting that going

714
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:21,679
Speaker 3: forward after today, the more you become curious about Michelle's experience,

715
00:41:22,399 --> 00:41:25,519
Speaker 3: the more it'll seem to her that, Okay, you're really

716
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,519
Speaker 3: listening to her now rather than explaining you.

717
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:32,559
Speaker 1: I also want to say that at the beginning of

718
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:36,119
Speaker 1: this conversation, Carol, you didn't think you could put yourself

719
00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: into that mindset, and what just happened.

720
00:41:39,279 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 6: I'm actually tearing up.

721
00:41:40,799 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to take my glasses off because

722
00:41:44,359 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: it was so beautiful.

723
00:41:45,879 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 6: Michelle.

724
00:41:46,279 --> 00:41:48,039
Speaker 1: I don't have the history with your mom, so I

725
00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 1: think you may have heard it differently than I did,

726
00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:55,639
Speaker 1: but to me, it was an act of profound courage

727
00:41:56,119 --> 00:42:01,479
Speaker 1: that it was so hard for her to put aside

728
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: all of the shame she feels, all of the ways

729
00:42:05,399 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: that she did not want to hurt you, and to

730
00:42:08,359 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: really be able to let that go and say, wow,

731
00:42:11,359 --> 00:42:13,679
Speaker 1: I did her, even though it was the last thing

732
00:42:13,759 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: I wanted.

733
00:42:14,999 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 6: I hurt Michelle in a lot of ways.

734
00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:20,079
Speaker 1: I hope that you can let this in a little

735
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: bit without imagining what's going to happen next or how

736
00:42:24,959 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: much you trust it, but to take that experience for

737
00:42:27,919 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: what it was. I don't know if your mother has

738
00:42:29,919 --> 00:42:35,159
Speaker 1: ever said that to you in that particular way, and

739
00:42:35,439 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that felt different to you in some way.

740
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:43,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say it did feel different, and I

741
00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 4: would say there's a small part that kind of relaxes

742
00:42:47,359 --> 00:42:50,159
Speaker 4: a little bit when I get to hear that. I'd

743
00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:53,559
Speaker 4: be overstating it to say that it has a big impact.

744
00:42:53,839 --> 00:42:56,959
Speaker 4: I think that I'm wrestling with those pieces that don't

745
00:42:56,999 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 4: trust it, or that hooked into what landed as undermining

746
00:43:02,999 --> 00:43:05,119
Speaker 4: statements that were woven in there.

747
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: I think that the two of you both have these

748
00:43:07,399 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: impulses that are very old and very hard to kind

749
00:43:12,759 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: of contain. Right now, your mom's impulse is to justify

750
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: why what happened happened.

751
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 6: But in that last bit of.

752
00:43:21,319 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 1: The conversation, she was so razor focused on you and

753
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: how sorry she is and how she could see what

754
00:43:30,279 --> 00:43:32,519
Speaker 1: that was like when you brought your boyfriends over. She

755
00:43:32,599 --> 00:43:37,679
Speaker 1: acknowledged all of that without qualification. That was her containing

756
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,599
Speaker 1: that impulse but also really seeing you. And I think

757
00:43:41,599 --> 00:43:45,079
Speaker 1: that you have the same thing where you say, well, yes,

758
00:43:45,479 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: I heard that, and yet your impulse is but I

759
00:43:47,839 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: don't trust it, so you won't let it in. That's

760
00:43:50,919 --> 00:43:53,159
Speaker 1: your impulse, and you're going to have to contain your

761
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:58,159
Speaker 1: impulse if you're going to be able to really connect

762
00:43:58,159 --> 00:44:00,599
Speaker 1: with her, if you're really going to be able to

763
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 1: take in what she's offering.

764
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:05,639
Speaker 5: I just want to say, it's so hard for me,

765
00:44:05,799 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 5: alb cuts, you are the most important thing in my life,

766
00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:11,959
Speaker 5: Like if I were to do one thing in my life,

767
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:18,639
Speaker 5: would be raised a happy person. I want you to

768
00:44:18,759 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 5: be happy and healthy. And when I hear about the

769
00:44:23,759 --> 00:44:30,079
Speaker 5: things that I have took that have hurt that prospect,

770
00:44:30,119 --> 00:44:35,519
Speaker 5: that have hurt you and not helped, it's just it's

771
00:44:35,519 --> 00:44:36,599
Speaker 5: the worst thing for me.

772
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:43,159
Speaker 3: Carol, But you have to understand, you see that you

773
00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:47,959
Speaker 3: can't go back and change those things. But you have immense,

774
00:44:48,359 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: immense power right now to do something that's exactly in

775
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:58,519
Speaker 3: line with what your aim is to do. You want

776
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:03,679
Speaker 3: a happy daughter. You have a power now to help

777
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 3: your daughter become happier, at least happier in your relationship

778
00:45:06,879 --> 00:45:12,159
Speaker 3: with her. And really it's simple and straightforward. You have

779
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:16,199
Speaker 3: to find a way to really be able to talk

780
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 3: about her without talking about depression, and talking about her

781
00:45:20,959 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 3: without talking about you, and not all the time, but

782
00:45:25,439 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: some of the time, because when things go wrong, especially

783
00:45:29,279 --> 00:45:32,199
Speaker 3: between the two of you, it's two seconds before depression

784
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,039
Speaker 3: comes into the picture. On both sides, Michelle's walking on

785
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,559
Speaker 3: extshells because she doesn't want to trigger something, and you're

786
00:45:37,599 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 3: trying to explain why you did or didn't or don't remember.

787
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 3: You were just accessing the fact that you care about her,

788
00:45:43,919 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 3: and you were working really hard to keep the explanations

789
00:45:46,839 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 3: and the excuses out, so you were able to stay

790
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 3: for a little bit with just just her. And I

791
00:45:52,759 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 3: know that was difficult because you're not used to doing that,

792
00:45:55,759 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 3: but that's what you have the power to offer her

793
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:01,999
Speaker 3: going forward. So rather than dwell on the missus, I

794
00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: would love for you to focus on the opportunities you.

795
00:46:04,359 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: Have now, and I think part of doing that is

796
00:46:08,919 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: that you're going to need to forgive yourself for what

797
00:46:11,879 --> 00:46:15,159
Speaker 1: happened in the past. It doesn't matter whether Michelle forgives

798
00:46:15,199 --> 00:46:18,159
Speaker 1: you for that, but you need to be able to

799
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,199
Speaker 1: forgive yourself so that you won't keep launching these defenses.

800
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: In these conversations, you're wanting something from her, and she's saying,

801
00:46:26,919 --> 00:46:28,479
Speaker 1: I don't want you to want those things from me.

802
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:32,039
Speaker 1: I spent my whole childhood feeling like you needed things

803
00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: from me that were not mine.

804
00:46:33,319 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 3: To give Michell one thing that was very important. Here

805
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,159
Speaker 3: is your mom saying that she used to think, she

806
00:46:41,279 --> 00:46:46,559
Speaker 3: used to hope that she had somehow shielded you miraculously

807
00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:50,039
Speaker 3: from the depression that really is impossible to shield a

808
00:46:50,159 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 3: child from. But only very recently she realizes she hadn't.

809
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 3: That's a very new development. Now you have a mom

810
00:46:57,319 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 3: who acknowledges that it wasn't all fine and is just

811
00:47:01,839 --> 00:47:05,679
Speaker 3: starting to come to terms with what that actually means

812
00:47:05,759 --> 00:47:09,639
Speaker 3: and how that actually happened. So with that in I

813
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 3: want you to have a slightly different perspective of hopefulness

814
00:47:12,879 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: in terms of how much she can hear and how

815
00:47:16,319 --> 00:47:18,079
Speaker 3: much of a different perspective she might have.

816
00:47:19,199 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I can lean into opening to the

817
00:47:23,439 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 4: possibility that something new is going to happen. I want

818
00:47:26,919 --> 00:47:33,679
Speaker 4: to acknowledge my own limitation around that. I my well

819
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 4: of compassion is tapped, and I do really struggle. I

820
00:47:38,439 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 4: think you named resentment early on, and I notice it

821
00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:47,039
Speaker 4: pop right up. I'm wondering how to sidestep it, Carol.

822
00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:51,679
Speaker 3: If you can continue to express compassion to that experience

823
00:47:51,999 --> 00:47:54,999
Speaker 3: Michelle had when she was younger, that's what will fill

824
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,199
Speaker 3: her well of compassion for you. You have to have

825
00:47:59,279 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 3: it for the child that she was in the reality

826
00:48:02,319 --> 00:48:04,599
Speaker 3: that she had, and then it fills up for her

827
00:48:04,879 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 3: as an adult a little bit. But that's how that

828
00:48:06,839 --> 00:48:07,559
Speaker 3: gets fixed.

829
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:11,079
Speaker 1: And I see this a lot with couples who come

830
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: in where somebody says, I'm just tapped out. I can't

831
00:48:14,879 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 1: have any compassion for you because I felt like I've

832
00:48:17,479 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: done that for so many years, and now you have

833
00:48:20,439 --> 00:48:23,479
Speaker 1: to do this for me. And it doesn't work that way.

834
00:48:24,119 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: One person can't do this. It has to be a

835
00:48:27,399 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: team effort.

836
00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:32,639
Speaker 4: I think it's not that I can't feel compassion. It's

837
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 4: that I have felt like the messaging has been that

838
00:48:35,839 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 4: I owe her compassion, that the compassion is a requirement,

839
00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:42,959
Speaker 4: that I lead with it at all times. You know

840
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 4: that that was my childhood mentality was I have to

841
00:48:46,399 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 4: always be in her experience and be cutting her slack

842
00:48:50,319 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 4: and be giving her grace and not holding her accountable

843
00:48:53,919 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 4: and not reporting hurts, and compassion for mom has had

844
00:48:58,879 --> 00:49:01,559
Speaker 4: to be the title of the book. Of course I

845
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:04,999
Speaker 4: have compassion, And I think that's you know, it's so

846
00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 4: easy for me to imagine her as a child herself

847
00:49:08,879 --> 00:49:10,999
Speaker 4: and what I I know she didn't get and what

848
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 4: she needed, and you know why she has the limitations

849
00:49:15,879 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 4: I think that she has, you know why this depression

850
00:49:18,479 --> 00:49:22,559
Speaker 4: has been so intractable, Like I can tap all of that.

851
00:49:22,799 --> 00:49:26,119
Speaker 4: It's when it shifts to the interpersonal of like, this

852
00:49:26,279 --> 00:49:28,999
Speaker 4: is your job is to be compassionate. And I feel

853
00:49:28,999 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 4: like that's where I bump up against something.

854
00:49:31,839 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 1: I think you're confusing feeling genuine compassion with you need

855
00:49:37,959 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: to take care of me. Yeah, and so you're going

856
00:49:41,959 --> 00:49:44,039
Speaker 1: to have to really separate those two things up because

857
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 1: they're conflated. Yeah, but they're very different. You talked about

858
00:49:47,879 --> 00:49:51,639
Speaker 1: her explosive withdrawal, you have an explosive reaction too. You

859
00:49:51,679 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 1: have an explosive withdrawal. You're like, I'm out, she couldn't

860
00:49:55,919 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: stay there long enough.

861
00:49:56,799 --> 00:49:57,199
Speaker 6: I'm out.

862
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,159
Speaker 1: You do the same thing, and so instead of having

863
00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:03,479
Speaker 1: that explosive withdrawal, you can say, Okay, that was as

864
00:50:03,479 --> 00:50:05,519
Speaker 1: long as she could stay in it right now and

865
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: just have some compassion for that experience.

866
00:50:09,359 --> 00:50:10,199
Speaker 6: Do you see the difference?

867
00:50:10,279 --> 00:50:11,639
Speaker 7: Yeah, that I feel capable of.

868
00:50:11,959 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 6: It's a feedback loop.

869
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,159
Speaker 1: We're going to be giving each other different responses. Maybe

870
00:50:17,159 --> 00:50:20,079
Speaker 1: when she comes over with the masks, I'm going to

871
00:50:20,399 --> 00:50:22,039
Speaker 1: be able to tell her how I feel about it,

872
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 1: but in a different way. Oh and you also brought

873
00:50:24,519 --> 00:50:27,679
Speaker 1: cookies and toys. Thank you so much. And Mom, I

874
00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:30,119
Speaker 1: said I didn't want the masks. It really means a

875
00:50:30,159 --> 00:50:32,519
Speaker 1: lot to me when you hear me and don't bring

876
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:34,999
Speaker 1: over the masks, And then Carol, you don't say, oh,

877
00:50:34,999 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: but the CDC says, and you say, you're right, I'm sorry.

878
00:50:38,359 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: I should have just brought over the cookies and the toys.

879
00:50:40,359 --> 00:50:42,599
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I brought over the mask. You guys

880
00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:45,599
Speaker 1: are done, and your day is saved right there. See

881
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:47,039
Speaker 1: how different that interaction is.

882
00:50:48,799 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 6: Carol. Does that make sense to you too?

883
00:50:51,879 --> 00:50:56,159
Speaker 5: Yes, A lot of times the reaction is delayed. I'm

884
00:50:56,199 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 5: not trying to lay blame outo explaining why it's harder.

885
00:50:58,839 --> 00:51:01,559
Speaker 3: Sometimes you would give the same response you need to

886
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 3: go out that in a delay. Your response is still

887
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 3: you know what? After thinking again about what you said,

888
00:51:07,839 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 3: I realized that you have a sen activity to me

889
00:51:10,399 --> 00:51:13,159
Speaker 3: not hearing you or listening to you, so that can

890
00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 3: be annoying. I'm sorry. I should have listened and not

891
00:51:14,959 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 3: brought the masks. So, Michelle and Carol, we have some

892
00:51:23,439 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 3: advice for each of you. Carol, here's your task that

893
00:51:26,759 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 3: we'd like you to do this week. We would like

894
00:51:29,879 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 3: you to think of three incidents from Michelle's childhood that

895
00:51:35,399 --> 00:51:40,199
Speaker 3: you can revisit through fresh eyes, in which you are

896
00:51:40,199 --> 00:51:43,959
Speaker 3: going to try and describe that experience from Michelle's point

897
00:51:43,999 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 3: of view, three incidents that we haven't spoken about, and

898
00:51:48,839 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 3: really give a narrative of what those were like for

899
00:51:52,479 --> 00:51:56,079
Speaker 3: Michelle from this new perspective you have of I wasn't

900
00:51:56,079 --> 00:51:59,559
Speaker 3: protecting her entirely, and her experience was she was trying

901
00:51:59,599 --> 00:52:01,679
Speaker 3: to protect me, and what that was like for her

902
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 3: to be a child and doing that. Now we know, Carol,

903
00:52:05,359 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: that when you start thinking of Michelle's perspective, the justification

904
00:52:09,359 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: patients come to you, your perspective comes in and you

905
00:52:11,839 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 3: start to see things through your eyes again rather than

906
00:52:14,439 --> 00:52:16,679
Speaker 3: through hers, in which you see the depression and the

907
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 3: efforts that were required and all of that. We'd like

908
00:52:19,839 --> 00:52:21,999
Speaker 3: you to put those in because that's part of your process,

909
00:52:22,359 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: but we'd like you to really try and focus as

910
00:52:24,359 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 3: much as possible on writing Michelle's perspective for three different incidents,

911
00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:32,599
Speaker 3: so that Michelle's experience is oh wow, Mum really thought

912
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:35,119
Speaker 3: about this from my perspective and kind of got it.

913
00:52:35,959 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: When you're done, we want you to go through them

914
00:52:38,479 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: and take out all your side of things, Carol, so

915
00:52:42,359 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 3: it just leaves Michelle's side. We would like you to

916
00:52:45,879 --> 00:52:49,079
Speaker 3: have at the end a document of three narrative incidents

917
00:52:49,079 --> 00:52:52,479
Speaker 3: that you're describing that when Michelle reads, she'll be able

918
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:55,559
Speaker 3: to really feel like, oh wow, Mum is starting to

919
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:55,959
Speaker 3: get it.

920
00:52:57,519 --> 00:53:01,599
Speaker 5: I understand the assignment. I'm just can I ask Michelle

921
00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:03,999
Speaker 5: if there are times that she would like me to

922
00:53:03,999 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 5: do this exercise for that would be helpful.

923
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:09,599
Speaker 3: Let's have a call a friend lifeline, and I'll give

924
00:53:09,639 --> 00:53:15,679
Speaker 3: you one. So, Michelle is the one example that you

925
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: can give you a mom.

926
00:53:17,119 --> 00:53:19,159
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing that maybe part of the reason that

927
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 1: this is hard is because Michelle, you held it all

928
00:53:20,919 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: inside and you haven't really told her a lot of it. Yeah,

929
00:53:23,879 --> 00:53:27,679
Speaker 1: So if you can give her this lifeline on this one.

930
00:53:27,959 --> 00:53:30,679
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was a time that we were in the mall.

931
00:53:31,479 --> 00:53:34,999
Speaker 4: We walked by some people piercing their baby's ears.

932
00:53:35,039 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 7: Okay, I remember that with this that was probably five

933
00:53:37,359 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 7: or six.

934
00:53:37,799 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 5: Okay, and I said something about it.

935
00:53:42,999 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, excellent, Michelle. We want you to do kind

936
00:53:46,759 --> 00:53:47,519
Speaker 6: of the same thing.

937
00:53:48,479 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: But one of the things that we really want both

938
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:51,639
Speaker 1: of you to be able to do is to hold

939
00:53:51,679 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: this idea of both and in your minds. So your

940
00:53:56,319 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: mom did some really good mothering, and she failed you

941
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: in other ways both and and I think sometimes it's

942
00:54:05,359 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: hard for you, Michelle, to hold the both and in

943
00:54:08,319 --> 00:54:11,599
Speaker 1: your mind, just as it's hard for your mom. So

944
00:54:11,639 --> 00:54:13,679
Speaker 1: what we'd like you to do, so just as she's

945
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: having a hard time getting in touch with both sides

946
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,079
Speaker 1: of this, we want you to get in touch with

947
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:20,199
Speaker 1: both sides of this. And so we want you to

948
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 1: write down three things from your childhood, but three times

949
00:54:23,999 --> 00:54:28,079
Speaker 1: in which she was a really good mother, three times

950
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: in which you felt like I felt mothered in the

951
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 1: way that I wanted to be, and I wish that

952
00:54:32,879 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: I had had more of that. And so what we

953
00:54:36,359 --> 00:54:38,159
Speaker 1: want you to do, just like we asked your mom,

954
00:54:38,399 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: is at first, you're going to write them with all

955
00:54:40,359 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: of the qualifications. Yes, she drove me to this, or

956
00:54:43,759 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 1: she did this, or there was this moment when she

957
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:47,639
Speaker 1: was really there for me and we had this great conversation.

958
00:54:47,799 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: I felt so loved and seen, but then she went

959
00:54:50,759 --> 00:54:53,199
Speaker 1: into her room. So you can write that the first

960
00:54:53,279 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: time with all the qualifications, but after you write that

961
00:54:56,879 --> 00:54:59,079
Speaker 1: draft of the letter, we want you to take out

962
00:54:59,079 --> 00:55:01,879
Speaker 1: all the qualifications and that's going to be the letter

963
00:55:02,279 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: that you sent to her. And then you're going to

964
00:55:04,319 --> 00:55:06,599
Speaker 1: leave us a voice memo and you're going to let

965
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: us know a what it was like to write your

966
00:55:09,919 --> 00:55:13,599
Speaker 1: letter and be what it was like to receive the

967
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:14,559
Speaker 1: letter that you got.

968
00:55:15,519 --> 00:55:18,119
Speaker 3: And so we really wish you luck and we look

969
00:55:18,159 --> 00:55:19,559
Speaker 3: forward to hearing how this goes.

970
00:55:20,319 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 5: Thank thank you, thank you very much for having us on.

971
00:55:22,759 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 3: You're welcome.

972
00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:34,119
Speaker 1: I think that most parents, to some degree have a

973
00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:36,999
Speaker 1: hard time looking at the things that they wish they

974
00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: hadn't done or that they wish they had done differently.

975
00:55:39,999 --> 00:55:43,999
Speaker 1: But when you layer on a struggle with depression, I

976
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:47,959
Speaker 1: think there's even more tendency to want to think that

977
00:55:48,279 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 1: you were able to shield your child from this, because

978
00:55:51,479 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: you already feel bad enough about what's happening, You already

979
00:55:55,279 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: have struggled so much alone in your life, and then

980
00:55:58,839 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: to think, and my child's going to be affected by

981
00:56:01,399 --> 00:56:05,559
Speaker 1: this too, I think sometimes it just becomes overwhelming to contemplate.

982
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 3: And I think that because Carol was so convinced that

983
00:56:09,479 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 3: she had successfully done that, to me, it's an indication

984
00:56:12,399 --> 00:56:15,639
Speaker 3: of how much effort she's spent trying to do it.

985
00:56:16,279 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 3: And I think that's really an interesting perspective for both

986
00:56:18,879 --> 00:56:20,679
Speaker 3: of them to keep in mind, because she put a

987
00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:22,639
Speaker 3: lot of effort into that she thought she was successful,

988
00:56:22,639 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 3: and of course she could not be entirely successful, but

989
00:56:25,399 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 3: she was actually really.

990
00:56:26,639 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: Trying, And because it was really hard for her to

991
00:56:28,799 --> 00:56:32,559
Speaker 1: acknowledge the ways in which Michelle really did struggle with it,

992
00:56:33,079 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: Michelle has a hard time acknowledging the ways in which

993
00:56:36,679 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: Carol was a good parent that she can't hold those

994
00:56:39,839 --> 00:56:42,199
Speaker 1: two things together at the same time. So I think

995
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,199
Speaker 1: for both of them, it'll be interesting to see how

996
00:56:44,199 --> 00:56:46,679
Speaker 1: they do this assignment and whether they're able to do

997
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: the both and of it and then offer the other

998
00:56:48,959 --> 00:56:50,359
Speaker 1: person the perspective that.

999
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:51,079
Speaker 6: They've been missing.

1000
00:56:51,199 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 3: I am curious too.

1001
00:56:58,079 --> 00:57:01,199
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

1002
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:02,599
Speaker 1: be back after a short break.

1003
00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:15,999
Speaker 3: So, Laurie, we heard that from Carol and Michelle, and

1004
00:57:16,079 --> 00:57:18,279
Speaker 3: I'm eager to hear the letters they wrote to one another.

1005
00:57:19,799 --> 00:57:24,239
Speaker 5: Hi, Laurie and Guy. It's Carol reporting back. So writing

1006
00:57:24,239 --> 00:57:27,079
Speaker 5: my letter to Michelle was difficult, but was also a

1007
00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:30,879
Speaker 5: huge learning opportunity. Like any parent, of course, it's hard

1008
00:57:30,919 --> 00:57:32,719
Speaker 5: for me to look back at times when I caused

1009
00:57:32,759 --> 00:57:35,319
Speaker 5: my child pain. It was terrifying to go back to

1010
00:57:35,399 --> 00:57:38,519
Speaker 5: those times, but I understand that it's important that I

1011
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:41,839
Speaker 5: try to see those times from Michelle's perspective. She needs

1012
00:57:41,839 --> 00:57:43,999
Speaker 5: to know that I want to understand what it was

1013
00:57:44,119 --> 00:57:47,119
Speaker 5: like for her growing up with a depressed mom. I

1014
00:57:47,199 --> 00:57:50,079
Speaker 5: realized that having compassion for Michelle as a child is

1015
00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:54,079
Speaker 5: key to regaining her trust as an adult. It took

1016
00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:55,799
Speaker 5: a while, but the more I thought about what it

1017
00:57:55,839 --> 00:57:57,799
Speaker 5: was like for her, the more I realized how hard

1018
00:57:57,799 --> 00:58:00,959
Speaker 5: it must have been. I can still picture her little face,

1019
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:04,159
Speaker 5: all quiet and scared when I was suddenly angry at

1020
00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 5: her for no reason. I can try to imagine what

1021
00:58:06,959 --> 00:58:08,399
Speaker 5: it was like for her when I was locked away

1022
00:58:08,399 --> 00:58:11,039
Speaker 5: in my bedroom, when I depressed and couldn't face the world.

1023
00:58:12,199 --> 00:58:15,319
Speaker 5: Those memories make me incredibly sad, and I very much

1024
00:58:15,319 --> 00:58:16,639
Speaker 5: want to make it up to her if I can.

1025
00:58:18,159 --> 00:58:19,399
Speaker 5: I can tell you that it was a lot more

1026
00:58:19,399 --> 00:58:22,079
Speaker 5: fun reading Michelle's letter to me than writing mine to her.

1027
00:58:22,879 --> 00:58:25,479
Speaker 5: Her letter was gratifying, for sure. She started off saying

1028
00:58:25,519 --> 00:58:27,479
Speaker 5: that I had many strengths as a mom, and then

1029
00:58:27,559 --> 00:58:31,639
Speaker 5: it wasn't difficult for her to come up with specific incidents. Also,

1030
00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:34,959
Speaker 5: the instances she picked were meaningful and heartwarming to me.

1031
00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:39,359
Speaker 5: They weren't about big vacations and material things. She picked

1032
00:58:39,399 --> 00:58:41,759
Speaker 5: times that I might have chosen myself as examples of

1033
00:58:41,799 --> 00:58:45,199
Speaker 5: good parenting. There were times when she needed her mom

1034
00:58:45,319 --> 00:58:48,239
Speaker 5: and I was there for her. Of course, that felt

1035
00:58:48,239 --> 00:58:51,279
Speaker 5: great to read. I'm hopeful that this will lead to

1036
00:58:51,319 --> 00:58:53,839
Speaker 5: many conversations between us. I feel like we have a

1037
00:58:53,879 --> 00:58:56,999
Speaker 5: lot to talk about. Thank you, Laurie and Guy for

1038
00:58:57,079 --> 00:58:57,759
Speaker 5: having us on.

1039
00:59:00,319 --> 00:59:03,639
Speaker 4: This is Michelle with my reflection on exchanging letters with

1040
00:59:03,759 --> 00:59:08,199
Speaker 4: my mom. Writing the letter didn't feel hard or painful.

1041
00:59:08,839 --> 00:59:11,839
Speaker 4: It felt okay, and I felt authentic in what I said.

1042
00:59:12,799 --> 00:59:17,519
Speaker 4: Receiving the letter from my mom has left me feeling

1043
00:59:17,719 --> 00:59:20,759
Speaker 4: some tension and anxiety and.

1044
00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:22,759
Speaker 5: Some dread.

1045
00:59:23,559 --> 00:59:28,799
Speaker 4: I think I feel anxious that something will be expected

1046
00:59:28,839 --> 00:59:31,399
Speaker 4: of me, like I got something for me and so

1047
00:59:31,639 --> 00:59:35,879
Speaker 4: now maybe something will be expected back. I feel there

1048
00:59:35,879 --> 00:59:37,959
Speaker 4: were parts of the letter that were interesting to me,

1049
00:59:38,079 --> 00:59:40,639
Speaker 4: things I didn't know, information about how I showed up

1050
00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:44,519
Speaker 4: as a kid that was interesting and new to me,

1051
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:50,439
Speaker 4: and I appreciated that. And there were a couple moments

1052
00:59:50,479 --> 00:59:53,799
Speaker 4: in her letter where I felt a part of my body,

1053
00:59:53,879 --> 00:59:56,999
Speaker 4: like a not in my body, loosen a little. And

1054
00:59:57,039 --> 01:00:00,199
Speaker 4: that makes me feel a little hopeful that she were

1055
01:00:00,239 --> 01:00:03,639
Speaker 4: able to kind of stay with that kind of communication,

1056
01:00:04,039 --> 01:00:08,599
Speaker 4: not all the time, but sometimes that things could potentially

1057
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:11,959
Speaker 4: get on a pass towards improvement. I was kind of

1058
01:00:11,959 --> 01:00:15,679
Speaker 4: surprised by the impact of her letter, and I think

1059
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:19,879
Speaker 4: I'm still processing it. So those are my thoughts. Thank

1060
01:00:19,919 --> 01:00:21,799
Speaker 4: you very much for all your time and help.

1061
01:00:26,759 --> 01:00:29,239
Speaker 1: We should start by letting people know that we saw

1062
01:00:29,279 --> 01:00:32,079
Speaker 1: the letters that Michelle and Carroll sent to one another

1063
01:00:32,519 --> 01:00:35,399
Speaker 1: before they sent them, and Michelle's letter was very sweet

1064
01:00:35,439 --> 01:00:38,999
Speaker 1: and was very straightforward. It was three incidents from her

1065
01:00:39,119 --> 01:00:41,879
Speaker 1: childhood where she really felt like she had the mother

1066
01:00:42,239 --> 01:00:45,359
Speaker 1: that she wanted, and they were beautiful, sweet, They were

1067
01:00:45,399 --> 01:00:48,999
Speaker 1: meaningful examples of her mother really having her back, really

1068
01:00:48,999 --> 01:00:55,519
Speaker 1: seeing her really being there for her. Carol's letter was extraordinary.

1069
01:00:55,599 --> 01:00:59,559
Speaker 1: It was written in the first person where she really

1070
01:00:59,599 --> 01:01:02,279
Speaker 1: got into what she imagined Michelle's experience was.

1071
01:01:03,319 --> 01:01:07,039
Speaker 3: Actually it was a great masterclass in empathy in that way,

1072
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:09,319
Speaker 3: in the sense of put yourself in someone else's shoe

1073
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:11,519
Speaker 3: and once you're there, you can look around and what

1074
01:01:11,599 --> 01:01:13,839
Speaker 3: do you see? And you really saw doing that exercise

1075
01:01:13,879 --> 01:01:16,479
Speaker 3: in the writing, it was so detailed, It was so detailed.

1076
01:01:16,519 --> 01:01:19,479
Speaker 1: She painted this vivid picture of Michelle's experience that sounded

1077
01:01:19,599 --> 01:01:22,759
Speaker 1: so much like it reflected what Michelle talked about in

1078
01:01:22,799 --> 01:01:26,719
Speaker 1: the session. So there's a lot there with Carol, And

1079
01:01:26,799 --> 01:01:30,519
Speaker 1: even in her reporting back of what it was like

1080
01:01:30,599 --> 01:01:32,439
Speaker 1: to go through this experience of writing the letter and

1081
01:01:32,479 --> 01:01:36,359
Speaker 1: receiving the letter, she was really able to take ownership

1082
01:01:36,719 --> 01:01:39,079
Speaker 1: of what that experience must have been like for Michelle

1083
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:41,199
Speaker 1: to have a mother who was going through depression for

1084
01:01:41,879 --> 01:01:42,999
Speaker 1: the bulk of her childhood.

1085
01:01:43,719 --> 01:01:44,639
Speaker 6: The issue, I.

1086
01:01:44,599 --> 01:01:47,839
Speaker 1: Think, in terms of their responses to the letters has

1087
01:01:47,879 --> 01:01:52,799
Speaker 1: to do with the difference between how Carol and Michelle

1088
01:01:52,799 --> 01:01:56,999
Speaker 1: interacted in our session with what happens when Carol has

1089
01:01:56,999 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 1: given an opportunity to sit back and reflect and edit

1090
01:02:00,479 --> 01:02:03,879
Speaker 1: her letter to Michelle and think about what she wants

1091
01:02:03,919 --> 01:02:05,359
Speaker 1: to say on the voice memo.

1092
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:10,399
Speaker 3: When she can edit out all that pain, then what

1093
01:02:10,439 --> 01:02:16,199
Speaker 3: you're left with is a really empathetic, well intentioned parent

1094
01:02:16,279 --> 01:02:18,399
Speaker 3: who really wants the best for her daughter and can't

1095
01:02:18,439 --> 01:02:22,519
Speaker 3: really understand what her daughter's experience is. But in real life,

1096
01:02:22,839 --> 01:02:27,279
Speaker 3: Carol has a lot of trouble regulating and preventing herself

1097
01:02:27,359 --> 01:02:31,039
Speaker 3: from going to that place. And that's the stuff that

1098
01:02:31,079 --> 01:02:33,679
Speaker 3: Michelle has a really hard time with. The empathy and

1099
01:02:33,719 --> 01:02:36,639
Speaker 3: the compassion for Michelle gets scrambled with the pain she

1100
01:02:36,759 --> 01:02:39,719
Speaker 3: has for her own self, and Michelle doesn't get the

1101
01:02:39,759 --> 01:02:42,159
Speaker 3: benefit of that pure empathy part.

1102
01:02:42,599 --> 01:02:45,079
Speaker 1: And that's why Michelle used the word dread in her response,

1103
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:47,519
Speaker 1: because I think that part of her really wants to

1104
01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:50,279
Speaker 1: trust this, and another part of her knows that when

1105
01:02:50,359 --> 01:02:53,759
Speaker 1: we actually talk in person, it doesn't.

1106
01:02:53,519 --> 01:02:54,239
Speaker 6: Go that way.

1107
01:02:54,799 --> 01:02:56,719
Speaker 1: But she did say that there was a part of

1108
01:02:56,759 --> 01:03:00,159
Speaker 1: her where she said the not in my stomach loosened,

1109
01:03:00,679 --> 01:03:04,519
Speaker 1: and I felt hopeful. And I feel hopeful too that

1110
01:03:04,999 --> 01:03:08,759
Speaker 1: Carol now has the experience of doing the exercise of

1111
01:03:08,959 --> 01:03:11,559
Speaker 1: editing out all of those parts that get in the

1112
01:03:11,599 --> 01:03:14,759
Speaker 1: way of her really connecting with Michelle, and for Michelle

1113
01:03:14,799 --> 01:03:17,639
Speaker 1: to be able to say, Okay, I can put my

1114
01:03:17,719 --> 01:03:19,639
Speaker 1: toe in the water here, I can get a little

1115
01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:22,439
Speaker 1: bit closer to you. So I think that this exercise

1116
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:26,759
Speaker 1: gave Carol the practice that she needs and gives Michelle

1117
01:03:27,079 --> 01:03:30,719
Speaker 1: a window into the fact that Carol really does get

1118
01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:33,719
Speaker 1: it when she can put the other stuff aside.

1119
01:03:33,799 --> 01:03:35,679
Speaker 3: If I had one piece of advice for each of them,

1120
01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:39,359
Speaker 3: it would be Carol, try and edit out the self

1121
01:03:39,399 --> 01:03:43,279
Speaker 3: referential stuff when you're talking about Michelle's experience as hard

1122
01:03:43,319 --> 01:03:45,959
Speaker 3: as you can. And Michelle, if you see your mother

1123
01:03:46,079 --> 01:03:50,079
Speaker 3: do that even a little bit, reinforce it. Let her

1124
01:03:50,119 --> 01:03:52,479
Speaker 3: know that you really appreciate that she's stuck with your

1125
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:55,959
Speaker 3: experience without bringing in hers. If you see incidents of that,

1126
01:03:56,039 --> 01:03:58,439
Speaker 3: even if they're in texts, and maybe text her a

1127
01:03:58,479 --> 01:04:01,319
Speaker 3: good place to start, because Carol can edit and texts. Michelle,

1128
01:04:01,359 --> 01:04:03,919
Speaker 3: if you can reinforce that and bring forth more of that,

1129
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:06,799
Speaker 3: and Carol, if you can edit and allow more of

1130
01:04:06,839 --> 01:04:09,079
Speaker 3: that to come forth, than there is help here.

1131
01:04:09,759 --> 01:04:10,399
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

1132
01:04:10,479 --> 01:04:12,959
Speaker 1: I think that sometimes it's so much easier to be

1133
01:04:12,959 --> 01:04:15,119
Speaker 1: able to communicate on paper. And what they wrote to

1134
01:04:15,159 --> 01:04:19,159
Speaker 1: each other was so moving, and if they could communicate

1135
01:04:19,199 --> 01:04:21,639
Speaker 1: that way in person, I think that they would see

1136
01:04:21,639 --> 01:04:23,199
Speaker 1: a big change in their relationship.

1137
01:04:27,959 --> 01:04:30,519
Speaker 3: Next week, a young woman tries to break her pattern

1138
01:04:30,599 --> 01:04:33,639
Speaker 3: of seeking out relationships with older, unavailable men.

1139
01:04:34,039 --> 01:04:36,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, I was dependent on him because of my dad

1140
01:04:36,639 --> 01:04:40,679
Speaker 8: and his illness and him dying, and so I came

1141
01:04:40,719 --> 01:04:43,639
Speaker 8: to rely on him, and I told him how much

1142
01:04:43,639 --> 01:04:48,279
Speaker 8: I cared about him and how I grew to love him.

1143
01:04:48,319 --> 01:04:49,399
Speaker 7: I guess I think I said.

1144
01:04:49,839 --> 01:04:53,199
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1145
01:04:53,439 --> 01:04:55,879
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1146
01:04:55,879 --> 01:04:59,519
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1147
01:04:59,519 --> 01:05:01,719
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1148
01:05:01,759 --> 01:05:02,719
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts.

1149
01:05:03,079 --> 01:05:05,199
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1150
01:05:05,639 --> 01:05:07,839
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1151
01:05:07,919 --> 01:05:13,279
Speaker 3: big or smooth us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1152
01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:15,639
Speaker 6: Our executive producer is Noel Brown.

1153
01:05:16,039 --> 01:05:19,359
Speaker 1: We're produced and edited by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and

1154
01:05:19,479 --> 01:05:23,319
Speaker 1: Chris Childs. Our interns are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton.

1155
01:05:23,759 --> 01:05:26,879
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Alison Wright and to our podcast fairy

1156
01:05:26,879 --> 01:05:28,519
Speaker 1: Godmother Katie Couric.

1157
01:05:28,879 --> 01:05:30,959
Speaker 6: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

1158
01:05:31,199 --> 01:05:33,559
Speaker 3: Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio.