1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,239 Speaker 1: Hey, there are folks Matt here, and this is unlike 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: any intro that we've ever done before, and that's because 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: it's just me Joel and I. We weren't in our 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: clubhouse this week as we are enjoying some time away 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,079 Speaker 1: with family and friends on fall break, so instead of 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: a Friday flight, we wanted to share a conversation that 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: we had with our friend Jordan Grummitt aka dot G 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: for his podcast, and honestly, I wish we'd had better audio, 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: but a last we weren't recording on our end, but 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: it was still a fun conversation. We talked about lifestyle 11 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: creep and we thought that this is something that you 12 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: might like to hear. And remember, this is Jordan actually 13 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: interviewing us. The roles are a little reversed for how 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: to money listeners. Without further ado, let's get to the 15 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: inquisitive tones of Jordan Grummitt. 16 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: I've had to reconcile the fact that my lifestyle has 17 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: changed over the years. In fact, I might be doing 18 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: the exact opposite of what I am supposed to do. 19 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: Back a decade ago, when I discovered financial independence, I 20 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 2: was getting paid more than ever, but I was spending less, 21 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: using frugal hacks and saving every extra penny to invest. 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: Fast forward to twenty twenty four, and my networth is 23 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: higher than ever. Yet we are making much less money 24 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: than before, but our spending has increased significantly. Of course, 25 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: some of its inflation, but not all. We eat out more, 26 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: travel more extravagantly, and pay attention to our budget less. 27 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 2: I worry about money less than ever as my lifestyle 28 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 2: creeps forward in leaps and bounds. Am I winning the 29 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: game or setting myself up for failure? Let's talk lifestyle Creep. 30 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: Joel Larsguard Matt Altmis are not only best friends but 31 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: also the dynamic duel behind the incredibly popular how to 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: Money podcast. Since launching their brand years ago, they've not 33 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: only left their previously held jobs, but also seen their 34 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: own net worth grow along with that of their audience members. 35 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: Matt and Joel, welcome to earn an invest Matt, Let's 36 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: start with you. Is lifestyle creep a dean or a 37 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: feature of learning how to money? 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 3: Or so you're just cutting straight to it right Like? 39 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 3: I feel like this is the question we should let's 40 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: get at it, that we. 41 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: Should answer at the end of the show, after we've 42 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: gotten all philosophical as to like where we. 43 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: Are in life and like what is money? 44 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: But I would say it is the benefit, right, because 45 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, what is money if 46 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: not the ability for us to direct our lives in 47 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: the ways that we see that's going to bring us 48 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: the most happiness to essentially live in a way that 49 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: aligns with our values. And if we can do that 50 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: with some of the additional money that we've accrued, some 51 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: of the money either that we're making or maybe in 52 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: your case, money that you're kind of drawing down, I 53 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: think there's some some wisdom there and not being overly 54 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: overly cheap once we've made some of these sacrifices on 55 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: the front end. 56 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: Joe Matt's got to be wrong here. I mean, lifestyle 57 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: it just sounds bad, right. 58 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 4: I mean, it's yeah, it's we've attacked it his personal 59 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 4: finance nerds for so long, right, So at what point 60 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 4: and how much can you increase what you're spending on 61 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 4: things that you can care about? That's that's like the 62 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: heart of the question for so many people. And I 63 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: think so many people do overly ascribe to frugal for 64 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 4: life mindset, right, and so they have a tough time 65 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 4: being able to then finally loosen the reins a little 66 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 4: bit to enjoy some things they care about. It's funny 67 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 4: if you you could translate what a MADJ just said 68 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 4: in some ways to like yolo, right, But I don't 69 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 4: think that's what he's getting at. And I think there's 70 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 4: a massive difference between smart, intentional lifestyle creep and the 71 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 4: areas that you care about. And like, I only live once, 72 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 4: so let me just like, let me just spend everything 73 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 4: that comes in with no margin for error and with 74 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 4: no thought for the future. So you certainly have to 75 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 4: balance those things. But I do think, especially for people 76 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 4: who listen to podcasts like this one, the typical individual 77 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 4: who's listening to a show like this struggles with the opposite. 78 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: They're struggling with it. 79 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 4: They've got that thirty forty percent savings rate, or at 80 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 4: least they did for a time, and they're saying, when 81 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 4: is it okay for me maybe to dial back the 82 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 4: percentage that I'm dishing towards the the traditional retirement accounts, 83 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 4: towards my broker's account, towards just thinking for the of 84 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 4: the future, And when can I start to at least 85 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 4: enjoy some of the fruits more of the fruits of 86 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 4: my labor in the here and now. That is a containe. 87 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 4: It's like a spectrum, and it's always difficult to find 88 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 4: the right place. It's like the bouncing ball going back 89 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 4: and forth, and you're trying to hit that spot in 90 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 4: that sweet spot in the middle, and it's always hard 91 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 4: to figure out what that is in the moment. But 92 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 4: I think it's worth searching for. And I think if 93 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 4: you are too frugal for too long, two in your 94 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 4: two future minded, you are going to miss out on 95 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 4: some of the joys that that money can bring you 96 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 4: today in the here and now. 97 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: Man, I feel like we can't have this conversation without 98 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: talking a little bit about our own financial trajectories. Talk 99 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: about how your finances have changed since the beginning of 100 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: the show. You started how to Money previously under another name, 101 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: what four or five six years ago? By now six. 102 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, six plus years ago at the sport that's right. 103 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: Now, have your finances changed, because the conversation we're going 104 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: to have is going to be a lot different when 105 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: we're at the beginning of our financial trajectory than when 106 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 2: it's moving along nicely. 107 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: Totally. 108 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll answer that here in a second. I just 109 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: thought of something else as far as like you're asking 110 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: about lifestyle creep, and I think a part of what 111 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: turns us off to that is the fact that it's 112 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: got creep in it, which is like a negative kind 113 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: of word, whether it's most people call matt yeah. But 114 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: even like as something creeps along, it feels like, I 115 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: don't know, it doesn't feel intentional, and which Jo says 116 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: something about intentionally spending, and I think that's what it 117 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: comes down to, right, because if you are intentionally spending. 118 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: More in an area that aligns more with your values. 119 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: Then it feels less like lifestyle creep as opposed to 120 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: areas of life where it feels like more like an infection, 121 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: where it's sort of finding its way into different parts 122 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: of your life and all of a sudden, it's like 123 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: the whole all multiple systems are shutting down now because 124 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: it has found its way. It's other areas that haven't 125 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 1: been siloed. But I think that's one of the reasons 126 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: why we push back against this idea of lifestyle creep. 127 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: But as far as my personal sort of journey, so 128 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: where were so I'll give a specific example which is 129 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: when we first started the podcast it Kate and I 130 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: made it a game almost and at this point we 131 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: only had so we had two kids or babies. They 132 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: weren't eating very much. But truly, like our motto when 133 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: it came to groceries was that we could feed our 134 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: family on one dollar per person per meal, and so 135 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: you multiply that out over the course of a month, and. 136 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 3: We waste that much. 137 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: It is not much, but we were eating incredibly frually, 138 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: incredibly affordably, and we were eating balanced meals as well. 139 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: But that is a specific area that we have dramatically 140 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: increased over the years, a because I read more about 141 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: health and nutrition and nutrition and party need to make 142 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: sure you're getting a wide variety of foods, including meat, 143 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: which is something that we kind of skimped on early on, 144 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: Like we truly saw meat as like the vegans just 145 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: turned this podcast as I used to see meat as 146 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: a garnish folks, all right, like truly for just like 147 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of flavor. Whereas now the more I 148 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: read and getting into to being healthier and stronger, it's like, 149 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: oh man, we do need larger amounts of protein eating 150 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: organic foods. That has also increased our budget. Those two 151 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: things combined, not to mention just the natural increasing the 152 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: price of growth, increasing prices, adding two more members to 153 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: our fans. So we now have four kids. So that 154 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: is an area that yeah, it used to be. Yeah, 155 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: three years ago or two years ago we first joined Costco. 156 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: We're dropping something like eight hundred dollars a month for 157 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: our groceries and that includes like cleaning supplies and some 158 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: medicine stuff like that. We're spending something closer to sixteen 159 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: hundred dollars a month now. But that is something that 160 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: I'm happy to do because it's something that I Last 161 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: night we had prime ribbis, like our family threw down 162 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: three of those. They were delicious, and it was just 163 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: a great family meal. And that's something that we can 164 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: afford to do now a little bit more. So, that's 165 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: an area where we are spending certainly a good bit 166 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: more and still much cheaper than eating out. Oh absolutely, Joe. 167 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: I mean your financial circumstances have changed, right, Both of 168 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: you guys were doing other jobs, you know, ten years ago. 169 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, does it. 170 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: Feel different today to you looking at that bank account 171 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: and going, maybe I can loosen up the reins a 172 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: little bit. 173 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. 174 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 4: I mean, I think and that's kind of the goal, 175 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 4: like because when you're talking about saving, it's really deferred spending, 176 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 4: and so because and I think that's the right way 177 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 4: to think about savings, I think sometimes I think that 178 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: what saddens me the most is and I don't know 179 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 4: if matagrees or not, but when I see the stories 180 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 4: about people who worked a low paying job for four 181 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 4: or five decades and then it's like, oh, they died 182 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 4: with eight million dollars in their retirment account, I think 183 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 4: that's to me, that's more sad than the YOLO thing. 184 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 4: And I think that is what maybe the Fire movement 185 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 4: at time struggles with, is a propensity to go in 186 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: that direction. It's to amass this incredible war chest, and 187 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 4: they're giving up on certain experiences that they could participate 188 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 4: in now, maybe meaningful trip with friends or something. I 189 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 4: don't have to go at the end of this month 190 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 4: on a backpacking and camping trip with somebodies. It's not 191 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 4: terribly expensive, but my goodness, I think like sometimes early 192 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 4: on ten years ago, I would have found it really 193 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: difficult to have the ability, the mental ability to spend 194 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 4: the money to go do this thing, even though I 195 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 4: could have afforded to do that. And so I guess 196 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 4: I know the trappings of a hyper frugal mindset and 197 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 4: maybe what the limitations that it can impose on you. 198 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 4: And I have slowly but surely tried to work on that. 199 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 4: And I don't think I've gone overboard, right Like, I'm 200 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 4: still investing, still thoughtful, still thinking about the future, don't 201 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 4: still want to have a meaningful gap there. And there's 202 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 4: certain things that just don't interest me to spend money on, 203 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 4: like cars or fancy houses or like private island vacations. 204 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm still kind of a basic dude at 205 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 4: the end of the day. But I am willing to 206 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 4: expand in a few specific areas and have the good 207 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 4: fortune to be able to do that thanks to a 208 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 4: lot of years of trying to be thoughtful with my 209 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 4: money and growing that net worth. But I do think, yeah, 210 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 4: that the typical struggle for most people at least who 211 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 4: listen to this are going They're going to be in 212 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 4: that I've got way more more money than I know 213 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 4: what to do with when I'm sixty five, and when 214 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 4: you think about kind of what to die with zero mentality, 215 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 4: what can I do with at least some of those 216 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: funds in the here and now so that I'm well 217 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 4: prepared for the future, but that I don't have some 218 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 4: like way more money than I even need. 219 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 3: That's I don't know. Thinking through that. 220 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 4: It's always difficult and there's no easy solution, but it's 221 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 4: worth wrestling through so that you can make sure that 222 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 4: you're using some of those funds now for things that matter. 223 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that concept of savings is deferred spending. Matt, 224 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: you mentioned food. What categories do you think lifestyle creep 225 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: is a very reasonable thing in like, are there categories 226 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: that are just too frivolous which you'll never be able 227 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: to spend money on versus other categories where you like, 228 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: I'm thinking for meat SETI like my rich life. I'm 229 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: willing to really double down on the categories. 230 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 231 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: No, I think it comes down to the individual and 232 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: so therefore I am not going to discriminate against anybody 233 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: in whatever category that they want to spend in as 234 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: long as that they have done it intentionally. Which is why, 235 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: say Joel alluded, and this is the conversation him and 236 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: I have had before. Joel alluded to like the janitor 237 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: who has a very simple life, but that ends up 238 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: dying with millions of the bank and donates it to 239 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: the local library, which he was a fan of. I'm 240 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: fine with that sort of scenario as long as that 241 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: individual has done the work, as long as they have 242 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: sat down and they have processed on their own how 243 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: they want their life to look like, where they want 244 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: their funds to be directed towards choosing it on purpose. Yeah, exactly. 245 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: If it's like a hoarding mentality and you're always afraid 246 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: that you're not going to have enough, that's I mean, 247 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: that certainly seems unhealthy. But for an individual to want 248 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: to spend more on vacations or clothing seems like something 249 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: like this Joel's wearing a T shirt I've got on, 250 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: like this Henley a bottle of Amazon like five years ago. Well, 251 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: that's not something I really care. Like that either of 252 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: us I think really care about, although we do like 253 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: buying more quality goods over cheap, mass produced stuff. But 254 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: if somebody wants to start spending a ton of money 255 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: on clothing, that, Okay, that's not something I'm necessarily gonna do, 256 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: but I'm totally fine with that. I think for individuals 257 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: to find whatever it is that floats their boat, you know, 258 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: on a how to money, we call it the craft 259 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: beer equivalent. What it is that folks are spending a 260 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: little extravagantly on in the here and now while still 261 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: being smart I guess way off in the future. 262 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: So and everything can't be your craft beer equivalent, right, 263 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 4: So for us, we're like, hey, pick three or four things, 264 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 4: like what are those things that you're willing to spend 265 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 4: more on than most people do? And I'm like something 266 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 4: like you're talking. We mentioned eating out and how eating 267 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 4: out can be expensive. I think if you're doing it 268 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 4: on purpose, that's one thing, but most people do it 269 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 4: mindlessly and it's like I forgot tow chicken for dinner tonight, 270 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 4: and so yeah, let's go out to eat. 271 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: Or it's convenience. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 272 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: And I think convenience and like eating out gets because 273 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: it truly doesn't come down planning. And when I think 274 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: more folks are seeing their categories spending up in when 275 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: it comes to entertainment and eating out picking. 276 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: Up and it has for us as well. 277 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: And that's actually one of the categories where I'm not 278 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: comfortable according to our budget. That is an area where truly, 279 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: there has been lifestyle creep and at the end of 280 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: the year, at the end of last year, Kit and 281 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: now I looked at it and we're saying, why, oh wow, 282 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: we actually spend way more in this category than we 283 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: are comfortable with. It doesn't mean that we're still not 284 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: prioritizing date nights at least twice a month. We can 285 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: still go out and have a great time where we're 286 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: talking to each other just over a beer and an 287 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 1: affordable meal. We just don't always have to go to 288 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: the nice restaurant where we're dropping hundreds of dollars with 289 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: wine pairings and stuff like that, which there can be 290 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: a temptation to do. But whether it's fancier places or 291 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: just eating out more often, I think it does kind 292 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: of come down to just I don't know, the ability 293 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: to proactively decide how it is that you want to 294 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: live your life. 295 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: Which includes meals. 296 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 4: I think when it's on purpose, that's when you derive 297 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 4: the value from the decision, and when it's by kind 298 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 4: of like, ah, I forgot the play and guess we're 299 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 4: doing that, it's just it's trying to hit the easy button, 300 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 4: and the easy button is what costs you a lot 301 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 4: of money. But if it's if it's every the date night, 302 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 4: every other week, and that's where we're willing to drop 303 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 4: seventy five hundred bucks eating out because it's a memorable experience. 304 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 4: Or if it's the if it's the every other week, 305 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 4: the family thing we got together, and guess what it means, 306 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 4: because then it's no dishes, there's nothing to clean up 307 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 4: after the fact, and it creates a memorable family experience. 308 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 4: That's a deeper reason I think to then do that 309 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 4: thing and spend the extra money and find the place 310 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 4: in your budget for it. But that's where the intentionality 311 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: makes such a difference in our ability to enjoy those 312 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: dollars we spend and not be like, you know, letting 313 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 4: them drain from our life mindlessly. 314 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, which I think a lot. 315 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: Of folks would hear that and they would say, oh, 316 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: you're just justifying that expense. You're oh, you're talking about 317 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: the dishes and not having to clean that up. And 318 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: other folks out there who might be earlier on in 319 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: their financial journey would say, just buck up, man, like 320 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: clean those dishes, Like, oh, that's that's family time that 321 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: you can spend together as well. 322 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 3: I'm not going to argue against that, but it' or an. 323 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 4: Individual decision, yes, yeah, and we're all going to make 324 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 4: different decisions individually at different points in our lives. Things 325 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 4: that I I was thinking about this just last night, 326 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 4: how one of our listeners donates plasma and he uses 327 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 4: all the money that he makes from donating plasma over 328 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 4: the course of the year to go on his vacation. 329 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 4: And I remember at one time, like maybe like a 330 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 4: year ago, kind of thinking, ah, man, I wouldn't do 331 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 4: that now. But I did it in college, and there 332 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 4: was a point in time where I was willing to 333 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 4: do that. And there's a point in time that I'm 334 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 4: not willing to do that. And there was a point 335 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 4: in time I'm willing to stay in hostels when I 336 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 4: go to Europe. Now is not that time now that 337 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 4: I'm forty, And it's okay, I'm okay that I've expanded that, 338 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 4: but I'm also glad I had that experience early on. 339 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 3: So I guess, assuming. 340 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: Of course that you can financially justify it, right, and 341 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: so like's I guess that's the point I was trying 342 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: to make. 343 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 3: You can kind of make up excuses for it. 344 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: That's fine because like, I think even the most flimsy 345 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: sort of reason can be your justification. But can you 346 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: financially back that decision while continuing to achieve the different 347 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: financial goals that you're looking to reach out a certain point? 348 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: That's the important part too, So. 349 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: Did Joe I've been real intention Like, we jumped right 350 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: into this conversation without really even defining lifestyle creep. But 351 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: as I listen to our conversation, it becomes clear this 352 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: idea of lifestyle creep versus being a valuist really has 353 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: to do with intentionality. Right, when we're intentional, it doesn't 354 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: really feel like lifestyle creep. It feels like value spending, 355 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: Whereas when we're being thoughtless, maybe a little bit frivolous, 356 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: then it really feels like lifestyle creep. So let's just 357 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: say spending growth now instead of lifestyle creep. We're going 358 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: to take some of that kind of morality out of it, 359 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: because hopefully a lot of us are trying to be intentional. 360 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: Does spending more make us happy? So what we previously 361 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: would call lifestyle creep we're redefining is just spending growth. 362 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: Does it make us happier? 363 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: You think? 364 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 4: I think there are ways that spending more money can 365 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 4: bring more happiness, and I don't think it's even just 366 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 4: about experiences versus stuff. I think that's been the typical 367 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 4: sort of reaction is, Oh, if you're spending on experiences, 368 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 4: that's so much more valuable than stuff, And I just 369 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 4: don't I don't necessarily think that that's true, although I 370 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 4: do think that prioritizing experiences can be a great return 371 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 4: on your investment. But yeah, I guess when it comes 372 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 4: down to it, I think valuist is the right term. 373 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 4: But even in that, even in that, like I love 374 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 4: the idea of like, well did I get what I 375 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: wanted for my money? Make did it bring greater levels 376 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 4: of satisfaction and to And there was a new study 377 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 4: that we just talked about recently on the show about 378 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 4: happiness and how it found that actually, much greater levels 379 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: of income do accrue to you more happiness. But what 380 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 4: the study found was that the main reason you accrue happiness, 381 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 4: it's the money that goes unspent. And so I think 382 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 4: it's the greater levels of control and freedom that you have. 383 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 4: And so for me, as long as I'm if I'm 384 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 4: increasing my spending, which I have been doing over the 385 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: past few years, as long as I am still doing 386 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 4: those other things, those habits, those frugal some of those 387 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 4: frugal habits because I just enjoy them. Some of the 388 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 4: savings and investment happens because I care about greater and 389 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 4: greater levels of financial freedom and control and choice of 390 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 4: my own life. If you lose those because you're spending more, that, 391 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 4: I think is when spending is going to accrue to 392 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 4: you less happiness because you are buying more stuff in 393 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 4: order to probably fill some sort of like inner need. 394 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 4: But what you're missing out on is the greater levels 395 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 4: of control and flexibility that truly bring I think the 396 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 4: most happiness according to studies and according to my personal 397 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 4: experience too. 398 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 399 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 2: I love that dichotomy you talked about at the beginning, 400 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 2: which was this idea of spending on things versus experience, 401 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: and a lot of people are like, oh, as long 402 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 2: as I spend on experiences, it's okay, you know, it's fine. Funny. 403 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 2: I've evolved to thinking, well, I think like spending on 404 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: things is like the lowest level of happiness. I think 405 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: spending on experiences like the next level of happiness, and 406 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: the final level for me is actually spending money on 407 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: becoming the kind of person I want to be. So 408 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: a lot of people say I want to spend money 409 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: on taking a trip to Europe because that's like an 410 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 2: experience and it's on my bucket list, and I think 411 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 2: more about, well, I want to spend money on becoming 412 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: the person who takes adventures and experiences new things and 413 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: learns and grows. And I really turned it around to 414 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: not even experiences, but being the kind of person who 415 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: does those things that I used to think the experience 416 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: was so valuable for. 417 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 4: That's the deeper connection I think that we're talking about too. 418 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 4: Really like that, because it is like it's a it's 419 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 4: a it's a trip to Europe that I can put 420 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 4: on Instagram is one thing, right, then it's less fulfilling then, 421 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 4: Like I'm the kind of person who goes and explores 422 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 4: and sees the history of our world and I'm walking 423 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 4: on a road that's fifteen hundred years old and it's 424 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 4: saturated in history, and I'm enjoying the small towns and 425 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 4: the little conversations. Like that's a different perspective even on 426 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 4: if it's the. 427 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: Exact same trip. Yeah, right, Like and so that's what 428 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: it like where it comes down to the heart. But 429 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: I like, yeah, I like what you're saying because there's 430 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: a focus here on self on personal development, which kind 431 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: of lends its way to an expense that I've recently 432 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: added to my spending over the past couple of years. 433 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: But like, paying for an expensive gym is something I 434 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: would have laughed at, because truly there's a lot most 435 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: of the stuff that we do there. 436 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 3: It's like I still laugh in him for paying that 437 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 3: much money for a gym. 438 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: I can go there, I can go home, I can 439 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: chop my chop wood, I can lift center block, you know, 440 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: like these aren't things that require any sort of specialized 441 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: gear or the Rocky approach. 442 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 3: Bundy. 443 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: Yes, but the fact is I wasn't doing those things. 444 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: And so even though I was telling myself, why would 445 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: I spend one hundred and eighty dollars every single month 446 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: to do this thing, Well, the fact is I wouldn't 447 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: do it if I didn't spend that money. And I 448 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: had proved to myself that I wouldn't do it because 449 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: I said that I would do it, but I wasn't. 450 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: And so in my case, similar to what you're saying, Doc, 451 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: is that the self development that I'm able to experience 452 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: by paying this money. And this is literally money that 453 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm paying it. I'm losing it. It's lost every single month. 454 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: But what I'm able to gain on a personal development 455 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: side of things, it's, oh my gosh, it's worth every 456 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: single opinion I'd pay. 457 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 3: Honestly, i'd pay more for it even but uh, I'm 458 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 3: glad I don't have to. 459 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 4: And I think the thing is, and what money people 460 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: are prone to do is say, well, do that, do 461 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 4: the rule of one seventy three on your gym membership, 462 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 4: do the rule of one seventy three on this and 463 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 4: this and that, and like, yes, it's true, I could 464 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 4: bulk up my retirement account and save these account like 465 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 4: even bigger, and it can be more robust, and it 466 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 4: could potentially be yes, hundreds of thousands, if not, if 467 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 4: not seven figures more decades down the road. But what 468 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 4: am I missing out on by doing that? And if 469 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 4: I have, if I'm planning accordingly and my savings rate 470 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 4: is high enough and I am prioritizing future me at 471 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 4: the same time, well am I deprioritizing current me? 472 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: Though? 473 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 4: In order to amass so much that's more than I'll 474 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 4: ever need, And that's that's a real risk. That is 475 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 4: a real risk that I think is dramatically underplayed and 476 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 4: not just having that those additional funds on hand. 477 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: But I think the bigger risk too is what you're saying, Doc, 478 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: is the lack of self development and not becoming the 479 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: person that you want to become or the person that you. 480 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 3: Could be because you're so future. 481 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: You're so yeah, you're so focused on that, and you're 482 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: not paying attention and exercising the muscles of habit that 483 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: allow you to become the person that you want to 484 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: be ten twenty thirty years from now, right. And so 485 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: if that means you are not spending money once a 486 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: year on a nice vacation with say another friend, well 487 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: that's a relationship that's suffering, that is, and you've fallen 488 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: out of the habit of flexing the muscle of spending 489 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: on vacation and going to the beach or in your case, Doc, 490 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: I think you go to Mexico every year. 491 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 3: The ability to do that. 492 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: Means that, oh, now, in your later retirement years, you're 493 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: gonna be able to continue to be more easily able 494 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: to accomplish that right, as opposed to having never spent 495 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: all along the way, and then all of a sudden 496 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: you're gonna pop out of the tube at the other 497 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: end and you're gonna have this ability to start dropping 498 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: money on these vacations. 499 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 3: It's highly unlikely. 500 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: That you will be able to do that without any 501 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: other sort of diagnosis or something that all of a 502 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: sudden has put your life into perspective where you see 503 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: this sort of the clock ticking down. That happens to 504 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: some folks, and that does allow, I think, for a 505 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: more radical transformation, But for most folks, it's gradual, and 506 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: you gradually become the person that you are day in 507 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: and day out throughout the weeks lead to months and 508 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: years ultimately your entire life. 509 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 2: All Right, I'll read this back in the moment. I 510 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: love where this is going, by the way, I love 511 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 2: this conversation. Every conversation I have with you guys, I 512 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 2: love anyway. 513 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: But well, we love it too. 514 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: This one's particularly fun, I think because I think these 515 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: are questions that we're both grappling with, right, and so 516 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: it feels we're just being selfish. 517 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: That's why it's fun. 518 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: And you know, I think about our audience members, who 519 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: hopefully are growing with us. And I kind of said 520 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: that in the intro. It's like, not only have your 521 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: networth's grown, but your audience member's networth has grown as 522 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: they've been more thoughtful about these things. So they're kind 523 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: of facing it right along as we are facing the 524 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: same kind of question. All right, Matt, Before the break, 525 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: you talked about this idea of the gym, something you 526 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: normally wouldn't have spent money on, and as you've evolved 527 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: and you realize this is what it works for you 528 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: and spending a little extra money on it will make 529 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: you more likely to work out, it'll add to your happiness, 530 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 2: improve your life. But there are gyms and then there 531 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 2: are gyms. Right, you can go to the middle tier gym, 532 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: you can go to the finest gym. You can hire 533 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: the finest trainer. I mean, you can continue to spend 534 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: more and more. How do we allow our spending to 535 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: grow but also continue to set limits when necessary? Like 536 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 2: how do we limit set. 537 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. 538 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: I think that for me, I tend to be the 539 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: kind of person that throws myself into things, and so 540 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: I would say that if I wasn't married, if I 541 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: didn't have a family, if I didn't have just a 542 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: number of other priorities in life. I could see myself 543 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of going down that path. And so for me, 544 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: I think it's just having It's not limiting, but it's 545 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: having more. And what I mean by that is having 546 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: more goals. It's not saying that like, no, you can't 547 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: do this thing, but like it's, oh, actually open your 548 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: eyes to see all these other things around you. And 549 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: so what that means is not only from a financial standpoint, 550 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: but from how I spend my time standpoint. I actually 551 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: don't want to spend more money working out and focusing 552 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: on my health. I don't want to spend more time 553 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: doing different training programs or whatever. You know, you can 554 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: have a whole bucket list of different things you might 555 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: want to accomplish. You're hitting the sweet spot when it 556 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: comes to fitness, but the ability to do the things 557 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 1: that's just enough for me. But then to be able 558 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: to spend my time and money elsewhere, whether that's on family, 559 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: community volunteering. I think having other outlets is so important 560 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: to kind of, I don't know, broaden the appeal of 561 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: spending in a more diversified way. 562 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 3: Joe. 563 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: This conversation springs from an episode you guys did on 564 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: How to Money where you and your wives were talking. 565 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 2: You go to the beach every summer, and at one 566 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: point one of you asked your spouse or the other 567 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: spouse about enough, and I thought that was a really 568 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: interesting conversation. Tell me about balancing spending growth versus worries 569 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: about having enough, because I think a lot of us, Joell, 570 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 2: get to this place where we're so careful with our 571 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 2: finances because we have this version or this idea of 572 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: enough that also evolves over time, and spending growth threatens that. 573 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: And so do you get worried about enough? Does that 574 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 2: come to mind a lot when you're looking at your 575 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 2: monthly bills and saying, hmm, we've kind of increased here 576 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: a little bit. 577 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: Oh for sure, for sure. 578 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 4: And I think that is probably where a lot of 579 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 4: hyperfrugal folks what that stems from. And I've been honest 580 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 4: with this on our show that like, when I was 581 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 4: a kid, my parents had a lot of financial difficulties. 582 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: Dad lost his job. 583 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 4: It led to a sequence of difficult money situations and 584 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: the family, including filing for bankruptcy, a car repossession, and 585 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 4: that left an indelible mark on me and so not 586 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: having enough feels like this incredibly real fear for me, 587 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 4: based in like trauma'sn't overused words, so I'm not gonna 588 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 4: use that word, but based in like what happened when 589 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 4: I was a kid, and so I think I went 590 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 4: through a lot, especially my first decade of adulthood, and 591 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 4: that was like my impetus for saving and investing was like, 592 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 4: I can't let that happen, but I could let that 593 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 4: mindset dominate me for the rest of my life. I 594 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 4: could let the potential for scarcity even though the numbers 595 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 4: on the page and the reality of the trajectory don't 596 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 4: match up with that. Really, that's off the table at 597 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 4: this point for me when I think about it rationally, 598 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 4: and I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? Even 599 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 4: if Mac gets canceled in our podcast because he does 600 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 4: something really awful and terrible in the podcast. 601 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: You know it's this, this is an inside joke, but 602 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: it's the speedo of Finn kind Litt'll eventually get him. 603 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 4: Carried righty, it's the effect We're never coming back from that. 604 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 4: But like, what's really truly the worst that can happen? 605 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 4: And the worst isn't all that bad, and so I 606 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 4: have to because it's really easy to catastrophize in my 607 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 4: brain and think about worst case scenarios that aren't actually possible. 608 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 4: And when I think about actual potential worst case scenarios, 609 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 4: I'm like, that's really not that bad. 610 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 3: We'll be fine. 611 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 4: And so and like that was something we talked about 612 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 4: where Matt's wife doesn't currently work and she's like, I 613 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 4: could totally go back to work or what if our 614 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 4: income drops, Like that's okay, Like we'll be fine because 615 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 4: we've our lifestyle is it hasn't grown to the extent 616 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 4: that we couldn't afford it if our income dropped dramatically. 617 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 4: So like the I think those are really important scenarios 618 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 4: to run through because it's really I get that attachment 619 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 4: to the numbers on the page and the salve that 620 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 4: it can bring you, But for so many people it 621 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 4: doesn't bring that because they haven't thought through the concept 622 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 4: of enough and they haven't really realized that actually where 623 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 4: they are is better than they ever could have hoped 624 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 4: to be when they were in their you know, twenties 625 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 4: or or early thirties, and the downside, potential for their 626 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 4: future is extremely limited based on the skills that they 627 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 4: have and based on how they've been able to handle 628 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 4: money thus far. So if that's the case, be willing 629 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 4: to think through how you can incorporate a few more 630 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 4: of those dollars now that are gonna boost your I 631 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: remember one of the things like, and we talked about 632 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 4: this on the show, I think, was like I said, 633 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 4: I would never want to like rake leaves. I raked 634 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 4: leaves like as a kid, we had this giant yard, 635 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 4: big trees, and raking leaves was like the I hated it. 636 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 4: And so that's one of those things I'm more than 637 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 4: willing to pay for, is like I will not rake 638 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,239 Speaker 4: the leaves in the yard. But I got out there 639 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 4: and did some yard work yesterday and it was great, 640 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 4: but it wasn't raking leaves. So it's okay. So really 641 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 4: find those things for you that are gonna be that 642 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 4: are gonna make you happy without overdoing it. But also 643 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 4: just I guess, realize look at the numbers and look 644 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 4: at the real potential downsides and know that they're probably 645 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 4: not as bad as you made them uppear in your mind. 646 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll say too, this might show the conversation 647 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: a little bit too, But for me, it's it's come 648 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: down to not just feeling comfortable with having enough and 649 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: seeing the number on the page and looking at the trajectory, 650 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: doing some math and realizing that, hey, we're coast fired. 651 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: We don't need investa anymore. If we don't want to, 652 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: we're you can just coast. But it also comes down 653 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: to a changing view of work, and when you are 654 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: seeing work as this thing that you're trying to escape 655 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: and at a certain point, truly I want to be 656 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: able to kick back and I don't want to provide 657 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: any value. 658 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 3: To the world at all. Well, yeah, this is right, 659 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: and judge Judy every afternoon. 660 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: If that's the case, then you yeah, you're you're not 661 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: going to be earning anything else. But my view of 662 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: work has I don't want to say it's changed, but 663 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: I think maybe early on first having come across financial independence, 664 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: there is more of a desire to be able to 665 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: say I'm want to kick it to the curb. But 666 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: the more I work, the more I realize this is 667 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: how I contribute to society, This is how I'm able 668 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: to make the world a better place, and I want 669 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: to continue to do that. Whether that's with the podcast 670 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: with how to Money or just some other thing I 671 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: haven't even thought of. I think that I will continue 672 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: to work. And maybe you've heard of this too. I 673 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: forget who was that came up with this, but there's 674 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: like a new acronym. So you've got fire of course 675 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: that everybody knows. But then there's ice. 676 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 3: Have you heard about this? It says where I'll continue earning. Yeah, yeah, 677 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 3: which is I don't think it's going to catch. I 678 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 3: don't know, it's it's not that catching. 679 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: But when I heard that, I thought, you know what, 680 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: that's exactly the frame of mind that I think I'm 681 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: going to enter into is that I'm not necessarily looking 682 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: to completely retire. I'm going to look to find ways 683 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: to continue to provide value to the world, in which 684 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: case you will be financially compensated. Maybe not at the 685 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: same levels, yeah, but knowing that there will still most 686 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: likely be a paycheck coming in. I think that's a 687 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: really healthy way of thinking about it. 688 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: Let me make an intellectual jump here, because when I 689 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: take what you both say together, Joe, your point is 690 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: you can't save yourself to enough, right, because there's narrative trauma, 691 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: generational trauma, there's issues from growing up and enough really 692 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: isn't about how much you save. You know this from 693 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: your own experience. Yet when I'm listening to Matt, it's 694 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: almost like, too, you can't really spend yourself to enough either, 695 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: because we know, ultimately from getting to the point where 696 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: we don't need to work anymore, you still end up 697 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: earning maybe that whole ice phenomena, because you have greater 698 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 2: gifts to give to the world. You have this sense 699 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 2: of purpose, this thing to do. So it's funny because 700 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: it's almost like it's not about saving, but it's not 701 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: about spending growth either. It's again maybe we're just coming 702 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 2: back to this value as using your money to become 703 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 2: the person you want to be. 704 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, we talk about the why behind your money, and 705 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 4: we're not the only people who talk about that, but 706 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 4: we actually have like a two page thing on our 707 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 4: site where you can kind of answer some questions and 708 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 4: it's it's almost like the Myers Briggs or whatever for 709 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 4: your money or something like that, not nearly as in depth. 710 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 4: Although I don't know if that's even I think some 711 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 4: people have cast dispersions about Myers Brigs and whether or 712 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 4: not it's legit. 713 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: It's actually less accurate, right, Yeah, get under constant because 714 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: of the fact that it's got to catch you name. 715 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, the branding was good. 716 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 4: They're much better persons out there, but yeah, but answer 717 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 4: some of these those questions. 718 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 3: It's so fun when you come back to it. 719 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 4: Yet, so we talk so much about the nuts and 720 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: bolts of how money works, and we talk so little 721 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 4: about the attachment to who we are, the things that 722 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 4: we've gone through, and the things that we desire, and 723 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 4: that is I think ninety percent of the work that's 724 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 4: left for people that hasn't been done. And yes, it's 725 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 4: crucial to know about contribution limits and compounding returns and 726 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 4: hsas and the beauty of triple tax advantage accounts and 727 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 4: stuff like that. Those are really important things that we'll 728 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 4: keep talking about. But it's more important, I think, to 729 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 4: know about that money's ultimately not going to satisfy you, 730 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 4: but that it's also one of those really important things, right, 731 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 4: that it's an element of our life where if we're healthy, 732 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 4: then it's going to allow us to be even healthier 733 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 4: in other parts of our lives. So I think working 734 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 4: through some of that why behind your money can help 735 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 4: you realize how much money you need to be saving 736 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 4: in the current moment, and for some people at certain 737 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 4: periods in life, it might be thirty to forty percent 738 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 4: savings rate and that makes a lot of sense. And 739 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 4: for other people it might be a ten percent savings 740 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 4: rate because they've done so well early on. And then 741 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: also I think it'll help you come to grips with like, 742 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 4: what are the things I'm spending on that are moving 743 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 4: the needle for my happiness because I've connected it to 744 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: something deeper that matters in my life. And I think 745 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 4: a lot of people just they've left that work left 746 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 4: to be is undone. And I think the more that 747 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 4: you work on some of that personal stuff, it can 748 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 4: actually help you realize what is enough. It can help 749 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 4: you become actually more thrilled it. There was a conversation 750 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 4: we have with Ken Honda at one point about and 751 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 4: I was like freaking out over this home renovation we 752 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 4: were doing and I was just signing the check and 753 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 4: I just remember having that conversation with him, and it 754 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 4: was like about money and happiness is about this like 755 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 4: kind of zen approach to money, And I was like, 756 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 4: how can you spend this much money on something and 757 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 4: not just be like punching yourself in the face while 758 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 4: doing it, and I just after that conversation, I was like, 759 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 4: you know what we have said. We wanted to do this, 760 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 4: and I can make it a miserable experience and beat 761 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 4: myself to a pulp over the money that we're spending, 762 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 4: or I can say, man, I'm so thankful that we 763 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 4: have this money and that we can do this thing 764 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 4: that we've been wanting to do, and it's going to 765 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 4: make a big difference in our family's lives. And I 766 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 4: think sometimes the hyper frugal person gets in the self 767 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 4: flagellation mindset and it actually it takes the joy out 768 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 4: of even the spending that you are doing that could 769 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 4: provide joy because it matters to you. 770 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 2: I love Ken Honda because the idea of happy money 771 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 2: comes in and he's like, and then happy money goes out, 772 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 2: you need to spend it on something you value, and 773 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: it really relieves some of that stress and anger and 774 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 2: anxiety about spending when you're like, happy money comes in, 775 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: and then your job is to make that happy money 776 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: going out, spend it on things you value, on people 777 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: you value, on services you value that add to your life, 778 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 2: and then spending is worthwhile. Matt, I almost feel like 779 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 2: the moral of the story is we should be robotic, 780 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: Like we should look at our net worth every year 781 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 2: and say we can spend this percentage, put it in 782 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 2: a separate account, and then have at it and spend 783 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: on whatever we think will be valuable to us. 784 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: I do think that there is something valuable when it 785 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: comes to being able to proacte. So, like you're talking 786 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: about putting together a budget, looking at the year, figuring out, okay, 787 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: where did we spend last year? Certainly reviewing that. But 788 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: I mean, so on one hand, I'm going to say, yes, 789 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: that is important to do right because you wantn't you 790 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: need to have a game plan. I think we can 791 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: get out of control. I think they can get out 792 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: of control. And you get to a certain point though 793 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: as well, where if you don't really need to look 794 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: at your finances hardly at all, and you're just kind 795 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: of like wet thumb up in the air, kind of 796 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: getting a feel for where the winds go, and that's 797 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: totally fine as well. 798 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 3: I mean, and I'm still thinking about. 799 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: What you're saying as far as like money and just 800 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 1: ultimate happiness and Ken Honda, which is making me think 801 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: of other things as well, But like it makes me. 802 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: I heard somebody else talk about just freedom generally speaking, 803 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: and we talk about financial freedom and money, and I 804 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: think the same thing can be applied to the same saying, though, 805 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: which is that freedom or financial independence isn't it shouldn't 806 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: be a goal in and of it self, right, It's 807 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: the things that. 808 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 3: That then allows you to do right. 809 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: And so I would say that having a higher net worth, 810 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: being financially free, it is not intrinsically or inherently valuable, 811 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: it is instrumentally valuable. It's the things that that then 812 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: allows you to do with the rest of your days 813 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: here on this earth, with the money that you have. 814 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: And I think that that is so important to register 815 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: because folks, if they're not thinking through that David Brooks, 816 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: he calls it the second Mountain. But like whatever it 817 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: is that you want to pursue, that's oh, actually, this 818 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: is the most important thing to me. The finances and 819 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: how you set yourself up early on in life oftentimes 820 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: allows you to then get to that point in your 821 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: life to where you are finding this more higher levels 822 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: of just fulfillment calling whatever purpose, the different things that 823 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: you want to pursue with your life. I think sometimes 824 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,479 Speaker 1: and this was me too, Like in the younger fire 825 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: crowd or whatever, it's like, Oh, any way I can 826 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: reduce a year or two to hit my financial independence number, 827 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: even if it means signing myself up for quite a 828 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: bit more bit of just miserable existence, It's gonna be 829 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: worth it because I'm gonna hit my fine number at 830 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: forty two instead of forty five, and that's more years 831 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: I don't have to work. And I just think that's 832 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: a that's a short sided approach, and I would rather 833 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: dial back the amount I invested and enjoy my life 834 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: more in the here and now and hit my fire 835 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: number a few years later. It because it's just it's 836 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: just a healthier way to live. And I've just I've seen, 837 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 1: I think we've seen too many people hit their fire 838 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: number and then they're like, what do I do with 839 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: my life now? And it almost triggers this existential response 840 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: because there hasn't been a whole lot more thought beyond 841 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: hitting some sort of twenty five X rule number, and 842 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: ultimately that's not the goal of life. 843 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: So, Matt, both you and Joel have lots of kids, 844 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 2: so many kids, so many I mean, just dozens and 845 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 2: dozens of kids. So one thing you guys have to 846 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 2: be thinking about while you're doing this watching what we 847 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 2: used to call lifestyle creepy, but we're being nicer and 848 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 2: calling it spending growth now, intentional spending growth. You've got 849 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 2: to be thinking, my kids are growing up and seeing 850 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 2: me progressively spend more and more on these things. What 851 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 2: type of behavior do you think it's healthy to model 852 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 2: to kids when it comes to increasing budgets over time? 853 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, that is so tricky because right we want 854 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: the best for our kids. We have more disposable income, 855 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: more of an ability to spend on our kids and 856 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: invest in them, and the different things that we do 857 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: together to buy nicer stuff even But I mean, I 858 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: think for us, it's having conversations about why it is 859 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: that we're doing things. There's multiple paths we can get 860 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: on here. But as far as you're talking about modeling behavior, 861 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: and I think it's from the outside, anybody can see 862 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: you spending money in a certain way and they can 863 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: either jump to their own conclusions or maybe they've got 864 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: no clue why it is that you're spending they're not 865 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: even thinking about it. But obviously we have got more 866 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: of an impact on our kids than just random strangers. 867 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: And so I think because of that, talking through the 868 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: different things that we're spending money on, whether that's a 869 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: home renovation and saying hey, this is gonna like this 870 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 1: is literally we're talking to architects right now. We're waiting 871 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: on the next round of drawings to come back from 872 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: our architects, though we can get the ball rolling here, 873 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: and part of the conversation here is like, hey, this 874 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: is going to allow us to have a music room. 875 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: We're gonna be able to have an actual, upright piano 876 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: up against the wall here. There's going to be an 877 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: area here for y'all to be able to craft and 878 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: to create. My wife she's going to have a studio 879 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: where she's going to be able to work on ceramics 880 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: and jewelry and metal design. And so what we're communicating 881 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: to them is less of a financial sort of conversation. 882 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: It's more of like, hey, we're talking about art and 883 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: creativity and what it means, sort of like you're saying, doctor, 884 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: who is the person that I am capable of being? 885 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: And for us when it comes to spending money on 886 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: our kids, That's how we're trying to interpret things. How 887 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,280 Speaker 1: can we invest in our kids now, not literally invest 888 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: money for our kids for their future to where they 889 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: don't have to do anything, but how can we set 890 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: them up in such a way that's going to just 891 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: broaden the horizons so that they can see that there's 892 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: so much that is out there for them to explore 893 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: and to create and to do and to contribute to 894 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: without going broke. So that's how I'm thinking about spending 895 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: money on our kids, and simultaneously, I guess communicating that 896 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: to them as we're spending that money. 897 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 4: Sometimes in that conversation the kids are like, oh, well, 898 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 4: we can afford that, right, And the truth is like 899 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 4: I'm willing to have that conversation with them where it's 900 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 4: like we could afford that thing, we could do this thing, 901 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 4: but we don't do this thing because we prioritize other 902 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 4: things or and sometimes that prioritization too is just it 903 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 4: makes us better humans, because sometimes it gets easy to 904 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 4: spend money for convenience, for ease, and are as a family, 905 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 4: we prioritize doing the hard thing, sometimes right on purpose. 906 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 4: So I think those conversations are really important to have 907 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 4: with your kids too, because the more money you have 908 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 4: you can use, it's kind of like a hammer hit 909 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 4: and a nail and you can you can just keep 910 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 4: spending money on different things and like, oh, we're gonna 911 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 4: upgrade our lifestyle this way in that way. And I 912 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 4: do think Rezili, it's such an important part. And that's 913 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 4: one of the things we've struggled with, as like, we 914 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 4: have had more money than I had growing up. How 915 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 4: do I still instill resilience in a way that isn't 916 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 4: it's not necessary. We could avoid some of the hardship, right, 917 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 4: But I think that the self and post hardship is 918 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 4: an important thing for my kids to learn and for 919 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 4: myself to continue to endure because I don't want to 920 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 4: be a weak person, I guess. And so yeah, I 921 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 4: think those conversations remain important and I'm always willing to 922 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 4: enter into that with them. Like, sure, we could put 923 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 4: a pool in the backyard, but why do we join 924 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 4: the pool down the street. Well, it's way cheaper. We 925 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 4: don't have to maintain this thing. And guess what, we 926 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 4: get to hang out with friends. You're gonna see friends 927 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 4: at the pool then too, instead of just our own 928 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 4: insular backyard sort of thing. So those are the kind 929 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 4: of ongoing conversations that I think matter and drive home 930 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 4: the point that, like money isn't the end all be all, 931 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 4: and there are reasons even if we have the money, 932 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 4: to limit our because we care about other things more. 933 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 2: I have a specific thing I want to talk about. Yeah, 934 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 2: does money buy happiness? Right, So we all know about 935 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 2: the Conmomon study originally that suggested seventy thousand. Once you 936 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 2: go over it, there's not much of an improvement. Then 937 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 2: Killingsworth came along and said, no, no, no, no, if you 938 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 2: make more money for certain groups of people, it makes 939 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 2: them happier. Conomon and Killingsworth eventually looked at the data 940 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 2: together and came up with some of the conclusions you 941 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 2: talked about. I don't agree with any of that. Like, so, 942 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 2: if you look at the Conmomon study, it's like retrospective 943 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 2: looking at these old databases, et cetera. And then if 944 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 2: you look at the killings Worth study, it's like they 945 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 2: did these questionnaires that they I think they texted or 946 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 2: emailed people and they filled them out, you know, multiple 947 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 2: times a week for like ten weeks, and that was it. 948 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 2: If you go and look at the Harvard Adult Health Study, 949 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 2: probably one of the best studies about what is happiness 950 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 2: in people. They study people every two years for like 951 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 2: seventy years. They did interviews with them, they did interviews 952 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 2: with their family members, et cetera, time and time again. 953 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 2: What they've found is it's not money, it's not prestige, 954 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 2: it's not occupations, none of that. That what truly brings 955 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 2: happiness is interpersonal connections. And so I think the Harvard study, 956 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 2: data wise, is so much stronger than the kind of 957 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 2: in killings or data. I don't even know why we're 958 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 2: still having the conversation, but I agree those are the 959 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 2: studies we all look at. And maybe I'm wrong, and 960 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 2: maybe I'm missing something. 961 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there is some truth to it, right, 962 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: because there is like some sort of threshold where like 963 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: if you are making a certain amount, like there is 964 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: a threshold at which you no longer have to be 965 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 1: worried about certain bills, certain things. 966 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,399 Speaker 3: But I going up for beers with friends doesn't worry 967 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:46,399 Speaker 3: you in the same way. Right. 968 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: But yeah, which leads into the community side of things. 969 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:49,800 Speaker 1: But I think it has less to do with the 970 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: dollar amount and more about margin. At certain dollar amounts, 971 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: folks are able to have more margin because now they're like, Okay, Finally, 972 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: I feel the ability to have more of an emergency fund, 973 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: more money in the bank because ultimately, and that's something 974 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: that we came across recently, is that is what's leading 975 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: to happiness, the ability to not stress and fret over 976 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: every bump in the road, and that comes with margin 977 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: that comes without living. 978 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 3: Paycheck to paycheck. When the folks are able to earn 979 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 3: more and they are able. 980 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: To sock some of that money aside in the highield 981 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: savings account, like that's what they're experiencing. 982 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 3: For their first time, and all of a sudden they're like, 983 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, more money. This is great. I'm so happy. 984 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 4: But it's like, well it's short lived too, yeah, And 985 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 4: that's the hedonic reality of the hedonic treadmill, right, is like, hey, 986 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 4: you get a fifty thousand dollars raise, and for like three, 987 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 4: four or five weeks, maybe a little bit longer, you're like, 988 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 4: this is the greatest thing since like spread and you 989 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 4: start to incorporate that into your spending and pretty soon 990 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 4: you're like, when's the next race coming, because I'm ready 991 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 4: for another boost of happiness. I'm ready for another jolt, 992 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 4: and we and it's it's I'm so glad the hedonic 993 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 4: treadmill is real, because when something really awful happens to 994 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 4: you in your life, yeah, it means that you can rise. Yeah, 995 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 4: you habituate back to it like a normal regular life 996 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 4: satisfaction which you kind of had before that awful thing happened. 997 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 4: But the same thing is true on the upper side. 998 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 4: And so I remember thinking, like, man, if I made 999 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,320 Speaker 4: like twice as much money when I was like starting 1000 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 4: in radio, this is going to be this is gonna 1001 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 4: change my life. And then it made twice as much 1002 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 4: money and it was helpful, helped me, Like but only 1003 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 4: if I think the ways it recruits to happiness is 1004 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 4: when you have more margin and when you have more 1005 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 4: optionality and control. I think people think that when they 1006 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 4: incorporate that into their spending and they're able to inflict 1007 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 4: their lifestyle, that is typically where the joy is going 1008 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 4: to come from, and oftentimes it's not. And I have 1009 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,839 Speaker 4: found that more free time to pursue hobbies and things 1010 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 4: I care about in relationships with people, that is one 1011 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 4: of the best things that money's been able to buy. 1012 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 4: And it's you don't necessarily need money for some of that, 1013 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 4: but it can be helped well yeah. 1014 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 2: So let me give you two depressing pieces of data. 1015 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,720 Speaker 2: One is the US Times, like, oh, you're of labor, 1016 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 2: does US Time survey and they've actually found that people 1017 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 2: who have less money and are the lower socioeconomic class 1018 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 2: tend to have more free time than those who are 1019 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 2: the middle and upper sociate and economic class. It turns 1020 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 2: out that wealthy people tend to have less free time. 1021 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 2: That's one depressing thing. The other depressing thing so it 1022 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 2: averages about five to six hours a day for everybody 1023 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 2: with it slightly more for people who have less. The 1024 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 2: other depressing thing is something called the Easterland paradox. Right, 1025 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 2: So there's this paradox that they've found that when you 1026 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 2: take underserved communities so everyone's poor, everyone has nothing, and 1027 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 2: you infuse money to those communities, they get a brief 1028 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 2: bump and then fall back to baseline. Part of the 1029 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 2: idea behind this actually is it's comparative wealth, So it's 1030 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 2: not whether you're struggling for the basics, it's whether you're 1031 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 2: struggling less than your neighbor. 1032 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: I believe they're studies about people, and that's depressed. 1033 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 4: When people are asked if they would rather have more 1034 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 4: money or their neighbor have less lot of Sometimes they 1035 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 4: would rather like as long as they are better off 1036 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 4: in comparison to their neighbor, they'll take that at the result. 1037 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 4: But if I make one hundred thousand and more of 1038 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 4: my neighbor makes two hundred grand more, then I would 1039 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 4: rather see them get lose twenty five grand in salary 1040 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 4: to me stay put, because it's that real relative comparison 1041 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 4: of happiness, and that's relative, and then we're obviously living 1042 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 4: in like a massive comparison age. 1043 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's the biggest problem too, is like 1044 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,279 Speaker 1: not getting too far out over your skis. And if 1045 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: you are constantly looking to the next great way that 1046 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: you can spend your money or the next trip, you're 1047 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: always gonna be like at this deficit right, Like you're 1048 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,759 Speaker 1: always gonna not have enough as opposed to trying to 1049 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,919 Speaker 1: find some sort of equilibrium. Like I swear, I feel 1050 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 1: like I wake up every day and I'm able to 1051 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: live a life that I can't believe. I get to 1052 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,919 Speaker 1: live like I get to It's like, oh my gosh, 1053 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: I get to get like wake up in a great house, 1054 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 1: the healthy, awesome family, I go and work out, I 1055 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 1: get to call you know, get the hang out with 1056 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: this guy and like quote unquote work all day and 1057 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,799 Speaker 1: create the podcast and our additional content I get to buy. 1058 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: Come like, there are different things that money can't buy. 1059 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: And I think trying to take a more content lifestyle 1060 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,400 Speaker 1: and focusing on the things that matter more like it 1061 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: just keeps me from looking ahead and be like, oh, 1062 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: like like where I'm trying to peek around the corner, 1063 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:56,799 Speaker 1: like what's the next what's the next thing that's gonna 1064 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: make me It's gonna really turn me on, that's gonna 1065 00:48:58,880 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: get me really pumped and excite. 1066 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 3: It's it's less. 1067 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 1: About that and more maybe about finding contentment in the 1068 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: day to day perhaps. 1069 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,359 Speaker 4: And that's where we were talking about experiences and that 1070 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,800 Speaker 4: it's it's the it's the experience hopping right, It's the get. 1071 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 3: The next one and the next one. 1072 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 4: It's I'm accruing experiences and to me that that ultimately 1073 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 4: isn't terribly satisfying. Like when we go on to beat vacation, 1074 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 4: it's not because I need the next experience. It's because 1075 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 4: it's about more time to to rest, to have interpersonal 1076 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 4: connection with people I love and care about the most. 1077 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 4: And and I think that's why I kind of buck 1078 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 4: against the typical moniker like experiences are are more satisfying 1079 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 4: than stuff. I just don't think that's nearly as true 1080 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 4: as people have made it out to be. And I 1081 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,359 Speaker 4: think we have treated experiences as a commodity. We've we've 1082 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 4: made it into stuff. 1083 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 1: Essentially in our current culture kind of cheapened it because 1084 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,279 Speaker 1: the argument for experiences is that typically you get to 1085 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: experience those alongside other people, which kind of lends to 1086 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,359 Speaker 1: the whole community thing, and. 1087 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,120 Speaker 3: You get to relive those memories for years after this. 1088 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, but like you said, it totally had has become commoditized, 1089 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,720 Speaker 1: and it's certainly become cheaper. 1090 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:03,719 Speaker 3: I agree with that for sure. 1091 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I look at you guys, and so so 1092 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 2: I know you guys as friends. Over the last what 1093 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 2: four or five years, you guys started what I appear 1094 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 2: to be is pretty happy people. But in the time 1095 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,880 Speaker 2: I've known you, you've seemed like you've grown in happiness. 1096 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm wrong in this, but I've known you long 1097 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 2: enough and I've kind of watched you, and I would 1098 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 2: say people's watching me would say the same thing, Like 1099 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 2: I started as a pretty happy person, but over the 1100 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:25,839 Speaker 2: last four or five years, I've kind of become more 1101 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 2: happiest time goes on. I think a lot of it 1102 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,240 Speaker 2: doesn't have to do with the things are the experiences. 1103 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,840 Speaker 2: It's that you guys are doing the things that you 1104 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 2: deeply want to do. You're becoming with people you want 1105 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 2: to become, And the rest of it is the time 1106 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,160 Speaker 2: at the beach is about being who you want to be, right, 1107 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,440 Speaker 2: the family man, the good friend, the like. Those are 1108 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 2: the things. Could you do it by having a great 1109 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 2: fun weekend in the city close to home and spending 1110 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 2: half as much but with the same people. Probably, Well, 1111 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,919 Speaker 2: we do that too, but you do that too, right, 1112 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 2: But it's not very much connect to the money. It's 1113 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 2: actually connected to the becoming the person you want to be, 1114 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 2: which which I think a lot of us who have 1115 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 2: found these kind of second careers of these things that 1116 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,400 Speaker 2: really light us up that actually still pay the bills. 1117 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 2: Like we've been lucky enough to kind of be given 1118 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 2: that permission to spend our time becoming who we want 1119 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 2: to be. 1120 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,520 Speaker 4: And I think we think that certain things are going 1121 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 4: to do that for us, and they don't. And it's 1122 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,439 Speaker 4: funny the things that the things that cost maybe less 1123 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 4: money but take more thought on the front end are 1124 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 4: often the things that do pay those dividends. And so, 1125 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 4: for instance, the thing that I think about every day 1126 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,839 Speaker 4: that makes me so happy that I walk or bit 1127 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 4: to work and it is one of those things where 1128 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 4: I have there is no soul sucking commute. I run 1129 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,799 Speaker 4: into neighbors and friends, these spontaneous instances where we talk 1130 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 4: about movies or pizza or whatever, and those things matter 1131 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 4: so much to me, Whereas if you're in a car 1132 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,319 Speaker 4: stuck in traffic, it's a tougher existence. And I'm like, 1133 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 4: maybe it costs a little more to live in a 1134 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 4: place where I feel like I can walk. That might 1135 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 4: be true in some instances, and sometimes living in the 1136 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 4: heart of a down to city being close to work, 1137 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 4: but maybe it means you can ditch a car, so 1138 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,719 Speaker 4: maybe it is worth spending a little bit more on 1139 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 4: the house. But it's those sorts of decisions I think 1140 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 4: that we've made incredibly intentionally living close to each other 1141 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,919 Speaker 4: where our kids are best friends and we're best friends 1142 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 4: and we do a lot of life together like that 1143 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 4: matters a lot and provides a lot of dividends in 1144 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,840 Speaker 4: terms of happiness. But I think often we're thinking about 1145 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,839 Speaker 4: like how do I get the highest paying job even 1146 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,719 Speaker 4: if it's a twenty minute more commute every day, and 1147 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 4: that's forty more minutes in the car, And ultimately we 1148 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 4: come home after spending a lot of hours in traffic 1149 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 4: and we're just worn down and we're short tempered, maybe 1150 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 4: with the people that we love the most because we 1151 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,840 Speaker 4: just feel burnt out. And I think those are the 1152 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 4: kinds of things that are worth thinking about more. Some 1153 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,280 Speaker 4: of those things are influenced by money, and you actually 1154 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,680 Speaker 4: might be better off ultimately taking a job that pays 1155 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 4: a little bit less, but that provides you more of 1156 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 4: that like life satisfaction and the ability to do more 1157 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 4: with your hours than yeah that you want to do. 1158 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,959 Speaker 1: It's like a more sustainable existence. Like you talking about 1159 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: the car, like either same thing. I either buike into 1160 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 1: our little office here or I walk. I love the 1161 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: days when it's like raining and I'm just walking in 1162 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,840 Speaker 1: the rain with a rain jacket or without. 1163 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,319 Speaker 3: A rain jacket. Sometimes he sings in the rain if. 1164 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 1: I'm going home, like I want to even put a 1165 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,120 Speaker 1: rain jacket on. I'm just like walking in the rain, 1166 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,440 Speaker 1: and I freaking love it because I am living a 1167 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:34,080 Speaker 1: healthy existence that sustainable that to me feels healthy truly, 1168 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,080 Speaker 1: Like I'm totally I'm one hundred percent fine walking here 1169 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,399 Speaker 1: in the rain. I'm I got my earbuds in, I'm 1170 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,799 Speaker 1: listening to an audiobook, like I love what I am 1171 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,440 Speaker 1: doing right now as opposed to. 1172 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 3: And it's a perspective. 1173 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,919 Speaker 2: It's happiness, which book when you guys read it, y, Yeah, 1174 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 2: this is those small things we do that we love 1175 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 2: or feel joy in the process of doing them, which 1176 00:53:53,120 --> 00:54:01,320 Speaker 2: is exactly the