Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey, everybody, it's Eric from the one you feed.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure why I always feel the
Speaker 1: need to announce that you probably have a pretty good
Speaker 1: idea who it is because you're listening to the show. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm here and I'm trying something new, and I've asked
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, John Mills, who is a PhD
Speaker 1: in public health, to join me. And what we're gonna
Speaker 1: try and do is pick a scientific paper that I
Speaker 1: think has some relation to the show and the things
Speaker 1: we talk about, and I'm gonna ask John to walk
Speaker 1: us through it a little bit, help us understand it,
Speaker 1: and we can talk about how it applies in our
Speaker 1: own lives. So John, welcome to the show. Hi Eric,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I'm excited about this. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think this could be fun for sure. So why don't
Speaker 1: you tell everybody what paper we picked for our first one? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So we picked a seminal paper in the research that
Speaker 1: has been looking at trying to nify the impact of
Speaker 1: trauma and the general population. And the name of the
Speaker 1: paper is called the relationship of Childhood Abuse and household
Speaker 1: dysfunction to many of the leading causes of death and
Speaker 1: adults and it's also known more in a more shorter fashion,
Speaker 1: the Adverse child Experiences Study. So what this looked at
Speaker 1: is it went back and surveyed a large population of
Speaker 1: people that are actually members of an HMO. So we
Speaker 1: have to consider this population as probably um not a
Speaker 1: very not as vulnerable as someone like medicaid. So these
Speaker 1: might be under estimates is of the prevalence of trauma,
Speaker 1: but in any event, they were looking to link trauma
Speaker 1: experiences to UH significant health concerns and challenges in later
Speaker 1: adult life. Yeah, and listeners who have listened to the
Speaker 1: show for a while, we remember we had addiction specialist
Speaker 1: gab Or Mate on and he talked a lot about
Speaker 1: the role of trauma and addiction and he referenced some
Speaker 1: pretty important studies and this paper is really the root
Speaker 1: of those studies. So what they did was, John they
Speaker 1: looked at incidences of either behavioral health problems or other
Speaker 1: causes of death in people, and then they looked at
Speaker 1: time those back to adverse childhood experiences. So what are
Speaker 1: some of these adverse childhood experiences we're talking about. Obviously,
Speaker 1: sexual abuse is a is a one that comes to mind,
Speaker 1: but what are the other ones that fall into this category. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they looked at sexual abuse. They also looked at
Speaker 1: psychological abuse and physical abuse as well that occurred in childhood.
Speaker 1: But in conjunction with that, they also wanted to account
Speaker 1: for the broader context in which these events might occur,
Speaker 1: So they looked at were you exposed to family members
Speaker 1: that had substance abuse issues, mental illness was there, did
Speaker 1: you witness violence against your mother, probably from your father's
Speaker 1: And then also was the criminal behavior in the house
Speaker 1: specifically did a member of your how us go to prison?
Speaker 1: And the impact on you as a child watching that?
Speaker 1: What if you you are the criminal in your house?
Speaker 1: In my case, well then there's no help. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: They looked at these experiences and then they were able
Speaker 1: to tie them later in life to depression, substance abuse.
Speaker 1: What are some of the other things that they found
Speaker 1: as outcomes. Yeah, they looked at suicide attempts, which is
Speaker 1: pretty um impactful. The other day, I was listening to
Speaker 1: somebody say that, like people who try suicide have mental illness?
Speaker 1: What is that other five percent that's a that's that's well,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that could be, but potentially it
Speaker 1: could be just an error in the way that they're
Speaker 1: measuring it, because any time has some type of variance measure.
Speaker 1: But that pretty much says probably anyone that commits suicide
Speaker 1: has some type of mental illness, going, yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of what I thought anyway, Okay, back, sorry to interrupts.
Speaker 1: Suicide was one of them. Yes, So then they're looking
Speaker 1: at smoking, so like health behaviors beyond alcohol or substance
Speaker 1: used like smoking to deal with stress, over eating, so
Speaker 1: later life obesity and obviously, um, these particular behavioral patterns
Speaker 1: can then lead to cardiovascular disease stroke. They also looked
Speaker 1: at the incidents of diabetes for example, cancer stroke that
Speaker 1: would be known to increase the risk of mortality as well.
Speaker 1: So basically, these bad things happen to you in childhood,
Speaker 1: and lots of bad things happened to you as an adult. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it increases the risk of those happening. And so it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that every person that has a traumatic experience
Speaker 1: as a child ends up having cancer or substance use disorder.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of other mediating factors that can come
Speaker 1: into play during the you know, as you grow older. Um,
Speaker 1: basically social support is a huge mediating factor meaning that
Speaker 1: can circumvent the these negative outcomes. Also, one thing they're
Speaker 1: looking at as the impact and roll of resilience. I'm
Speaker 1: not real sure. I'm not um experience with how they
Speaker 1: measure resilience, but they are doing that at this point.
Speaker 1: I know I've seen work and how that might stop. So, say,
Speaker 1: like if you have a traumatic experience even as an adult,
Speaker 1: and often that leads to PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. Right,
Speaker 1: they find that some people even don't end up having PTSD,
Speaker 1: UM those people tend to be more resilient or have
Speaker 1: um perception of a stronger, stronger social network or support system.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of things going on here, but
Speaker 1: it increases the risk. It's not necessarily your destiny, but
Speaker 1: it increases the risk. And they also show in the
Speaker 1: paper that the more of these adverse childhood experiences you've had,
Speaker 1: the higher the risk. Yeah, they call it what's called
Speaker 1: a dose response relationships. So it's not just linear. So
Speaker 1: an increase from two to three two incidentss to three incidents,
Speaker 1: the increase in risk there is greater than the one
Speaker 1: that you would experience if you had from someone that
Speaker 1: goes from one to two. Does that make sense yep.
Speaker 1: So one of the reasons I thought this would be
Speaker 1: a good paper when you brought it to me was
Speaker 1: because a lot of the people who listen to this
Speaker 1: show have either depression, behavioral health challenges, whether that be
Speaker 1: addiction to substances or eating, or all kinds of other
Speaker 1: patterns in their life that are challenging, and so I
Speaker 1: thought this was interesting, not as a way to say like, well,
Speaker 1: you're you're screwed right, like you've got these issues, but
Speaker 1: really as a way to say that there are reasons
Speaker 1: that you are having some of these challenges, that the behavior,
Speaker 1: the response to adverse childhood experiences makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: There's a reason that we are doing and have done
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, that was a theme of the paper.
Speaker 1: It gets to the idea that trauma is often unrecognized,
Speaker 1: especially in primary care settings where a primary care physician
Speaker 1: or even let's just say a specialty setting like a
Speaker 1: psychiatrist that not a psychiatrist, but in any other setting
Speaker 1: where physicians don't know that there's a trauma history, patients
Speaker 1: don't want to report that. Also, sometimes physicians are not
Speaker 1: what's the word I'm looking for not are concerned about
Speaker 1: bringing that up. You know, you ask someone and it
Speaker 1: triggers problem, you know, could trigger things, so they don't
Speaker 1: there's a lack of knowledge that that maybe the underlying cause.
Speaker 1: And that's the point here of this paper would just
Speaker 1: to say, hey, look, you know over of the population
Speaker 1: has exposure to at least one childhood adverse event. Probably
Speaker 1: if you're seeing someone with substance use disorder or depression,
Speaker 1: there could potentially be um a childhood trauma experience underlying this,
Speaker 1: and it makes sense to screen for that, to understand that, hey,
Speaker 1: this has happened. This is something that's ingrained in this
Speaker 1: person for a long period of time. They've been dealing
Speaker 1: with with pain associated with trauma, and the best way
Speaker 1: they know how just didn't come out of Oh I
Speaker 1: tried drinking because of peer pressure and now I'm addicted. No,
Speaker 1: they tried drinking because that was the only way they
Speaker 1: found at that time as a child to deal with
Speaker 1: that pain. Maybe not as a child, but as a teenager.
Speaker 1: Right well, they may have started drinking out of peer
Speaker 1: pressure and found as I did, like, holy mackerel, this
Speaker 1: is wow. This this really does something special for me
Speaker 1: that you know more than what it what it does
Speaker 1: for other people. Yeah, gab Or Mate had a phrase
Speaker 1: he said, you know, you don't ask why the addiction,
Speaker 1: ask why the pain? You know what was ask what
Speaker 1: the pain is? That's underlying that, And so I think
Speaker 1: kind of what you're getting at is recognizing that, you know,
Speaker 1: there may be a role in trauma in how we
Speaker 1: change behavior. So when we look at changing behavior on
Speaker 1: the show, we focus on a lot of very very
Speaker 1: practical tips. We talked about acting your way into right thinking,
Speaker 1: um talk about you know, action over knowledge. It's a
Speaker 1: huge focus of what I talk about from my own experience.
Speaker 1: I think that stuff is very relevant and is a
Speaker 1: part of the solution. But also I don't talk about
Speaker 1: this as much, but there was also a lot of
Speaker 1: digging into previous aspects of my life in my childhood
Speaker 1: that I did as over the long process of you know,
Speaker 1: I hate that phrase, the healing journey, but you know,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word on that, on that
Speaker 1: journey that was you know, another part that played a
Speaker 1: role for me in getting better. Correct I agree with
Speaker 1: everything you said. I just wanted to step back and
Speaker 1: recharacterize what your previous guest, gab Or Motte, said about
Speaker 1: when you have someone that is struggling with addiction, don't
Speaker 1: ask why the addiction, but ask why the pain he's
Speaker 1: getting on a very important piece of that. Alcohol didn't
Speaker 1: add to someone's life in that sense of the word.
Speaker 1: It's it's accounting for a deficit that existed, right, It's
Speaker 1: it's solved a problem, and not to oh wow, this
Speaker 1: is really making my life better. It is more dealing
Speaker 1: with a deficit that is pre existing. And there's a
Speaker 1: difference there because you're starting from a whole rather than
Speaker 1: you know, on the same plane as everyone else. And
Speaker 1: it's a specific and trauma that trauma. Trauma creates a
Speaker 1: specific hole that's incredibly um incredibly tough to climb out of.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what this whole idea is, this
Speaker 1: trauma recognition and you know, starting to build that into
Speaker 1: the recognition of even primary cares. Okay, these people, this
Speaker 1: isn't simply some behavioral disorder or this behavior, you know,
Speaker 1: maladaptive behavior. We need to look deeper, like your previous
Speaker 1: guests said, before we can start this person on a
Speaker 1: process of healing and more effective behavior. Yeah, it's interesting
Speaker 1: to me because, as I was saying before, you know,
Speaker 1: my belief in act your way into right thinking you know,
Speaker 1: I got sober and you did originally also really through
Speaker 1: a twelve step method that more or less completely ignores
Speaker 1: this entire concept. Yes, and so go ahead. It still
Speaker 1: exists in a lot of the professional you know, treatment
Speaker 1: centers that for substance of use. It's like, well, do
Speaker 1: you get it that this isn't working for you? Can't
Speaker 1: you see that yet? And that's missing the piece before
Speaker 1: And so now you are seeing other treatment centers looking
Speaker 1: at the idea that any treatment of substance abuse has
Speaker 1: to incorporate some type of therapeutic approach that is for trauma,
Speaker 1: because most of substance abuse that they're finding in this
Speaker 1: evidence shows is um the ideology or the you know,
Speaker 1: where it comes from is exposure to some type of
Speaker 1: trauma or household dysfunction. Because the way they define this
Speaker 1: in the paper is quite broad. So I think if
Speaker 1: a lot of people that probably don't even consider themselves
Speaker 1: exposed to trauma because they didn't beat by anyone, if
Speaker 1: they went back and looked at their life, they might think, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh that was you know there. It's redefining it to
Speaker 1: be more realistic to you know, obviously the relationship that
Speaker 1: strong evidence exists to support. So you're seeing a change
Speaker 1: in the philosophy in the way that we deal with
Speaker 1: substance use disorder. In some places where they just trauma,
Speaker 1: trauma therapy is incorporated and as a given. Again, it's
Speaker 1: interesting because my recovery experience was very different, did not
Speaker 1: focus on that. You know, I'm always hesitant. Hesitance not
Speaker 1: the right word. I'm trying to think of what I
Speaker 1: want to say here. I think that I get I
Speaker 1: get stuck sometimes on these ideas of that. I like
Speaker 1: where you're going. This is a good piece. I'd like
Speaker 1: to talk about with my own personal thing too when
Speaker 1: you get to it. So I think part of this
Speaker 1: for me, there's this part of me that was, you know,
Speaker 1: raised when I got sober and very you know, very
Speaker 1: much in a strict twelfth Step program, and the idea was,
Speaker 1: you know, that stuff is not important. What's important is
Speaker 1: what you're doing now, how you're behaving your actions, And
Speaker 1: I I believe that to a certain extent, and in
Speaker 1: my case, maybe the trauma wasn't severe enough. I was
Speaker 1: able to get sober via that method, and then I
Speaker 1: recognized the impacts that was having in other areas in
Speaker 1: my life, mainly I think depression, right, the depression is
Speaker 1: what came after that For me, that was so serious.
Speaker 1: And I always worry about this idea of you know,
Speaker 1: am I am I blaming what's happening to me on
Speaker 1: other people? And am I using that? Could I be
Speaker 1: using that as an excuse? And I don't think that
Speaker 1: is the case at all. I just find that interesting. Like,
Speaker 1: there's the way I looked at going back and doing
Speaker 1: that that work for me was it's not about finding
Speaker 1: fault or blame, but it was about understanding who I
Speaker 1: am and why I am the way I am and
Speaker 1: working with that, Like I was the only one that
Speaker 1: could do that work. So again, it wasn't about a
Speaker 1: blame thing or my parents did this or my parents
Speaker 1: did that. It was really about here's who I am
Speaker 1: and here are some of the factors that got me
Speaker 1: to where I am, and having that full picture allowed
Speaker 1: me to grow in different ways. Yeah. I had a
Speaker 1: similar experience in getting sober um and the twelve step approach,
Speaker 1: and it missed a lot of that. It wasn't that
Speaker 1: I didn't talk about it. It It wasn't the secret that
Speaker 1: I had experienced. I was raped, certainly had some experiences
Speaker 1: as a child that were more psychological. It wasn't that
Speaker 1: we didn't talk about it, but the approach was trying
Speaker 1: to fit it into the idea of looking at your part, right.
Speaker 1: And what I missed and it wasn't until later in
Speaker 1: my sobriety when I ended up finally being becoming so
Speaker 1: depressed and so out of control and suicidal when I
Speaker 1: tried to commit suicide, was learning that there's a word
Speaker 1: that was hard to say, that I was a victim, right,
Speaker 1: because you don't want to say that in a lot
Speaker 1: of settings, right, the victim. You always don't play the victim. Well,
Speaker 1: I did accept the fact that I was a victim
Speaker 1: of an experience, right, and I had a profound effect
Speaker 1: on me, and it was still reverberating in my life
Speaker 1: years later. That was a place that I had to start,
Speaker 1: and I had a lot of shame about becoming a victim.
Speaker 1: But what I was also told where I was getting
Speaker 1: this treatment was then you progress from there. Then, once
Speaker 1: you acknowledge that you were a victim, you become you
Speaker 1: start to survive, which is kind of I think where
Speaker 1: we get into changing our behavior and really working past
Speaker 1: you know, like, Okay, I've become destructive. I became very
Speaker 1: destructive and suicidal. Well that I wanted to live, but
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to deal with this pain. So
Speaker 1: that was when you step into this survival phase. The
Speaker 1: nurse that the psychiatric nurse that I was saying, that's
Speaker 1: something very very impactful to me. She's like, some people
Speaker 1: get stuck in survival mode, but the real goal is
Speaker 1: to come out of that and then just become human
Speaker 1: and you no longer have to be a survivor. You
Speaker 1: just become a human. And what I've learned, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think you've ascolated back and forth in between those
Speaker 1: um stages is what I've experienced at this point in
Speaker 1: my life that really becoming human isn't giving up, you know,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I acknowledge I was a victim, and
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot of ways to deal with it,
Speaker 1: and my humanity is just accepting that I Am never
Speaker 1: going to be perfect at dealing with this. You know
Speaker 1: that I'm I'm making the best out of the life
Speaker 1: that I have, you know, and I have a good life,
Speaker 1: and I'm using all the skills and tools that I've
Speaker 1: learned that I've been you know, privilege to be able
Speaker 1: to have access to and treatment to learn. And but
Speaker 1: then I start to this, this change starts to happen
Speaker 1: in the way that I view myself, and that um,
Speaker 1: it's just never going to be perfect, right, I'm never
Speaker 1: going to be perfect at these you know, different trying
Speaker 1: to live a different way and look at my and
Speaker 1: how and also just the perspective of things where I'll
Speaker 1: be going And I'm like, oh, I'm really getting into
Speaker 1: that blame role again. But at first I had to
Speaker 1: start there because I was pissed, which is natural. Does that?
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Sir? I agree? What comes to
Speaker 1: my mind is the I've got written on my wall
Speaker 1: behind me. I've got lots of things written on the wall.
Speaker 1: It's not like this is the one phrase, um, but
Speaker 1: one of them was the idea of fault versus responsibility. Right.
Speaker 1: It was not your fault that you were raped, right,
Speaker 1: but it is your responsibility to get better. Right. No
Speaker 1: one else can do that for you. And that's I
Speaker 1: think where that gets tricky. So, and that's and that
Speaker 1: that is, but there's a step before that that I
Speaker 1: think has been missed in and It's a very important stuff.
Speaker 1: Is the way that I dealt with the pain after
Speaker 1: being raped and that I became that I used over
Speaker 1: the years that was not we would term now not effective,
Speaker 1: was effective for me for a long time. It helped
Speaker 1: me stay alive. Like that's why I'm still alive, you know,
Speaker 1: because I think at some point if I hadn't maybe
Speaker 1: you know, when I relapsed, had I not relapsed, there
Speaker 1: was a piece that I think it gave me time.
Speaker 1: It took me away from suicide for a while because
Speaker 1: it covered the pain. Now that's not I'm not saying
Speaker 1: go out and relapse and use, but it I think
Speaker 1: when I look back upon it, even though it entered
Speaker 1: me into a very troubled period of time, it helped,
Speaker 1: you know, it helped deal with that pain. It it
Speaker 1: calmed it just for a little bit. Now, the responsibility part,
Speaker 1: it wasn't about fault, I guess you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like that wasn't about fault. The responsibility part was, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can have something better and there is a way
Speaker 1: to not to deal with that pain that doesn't involve
Speaker 1: destruction and and so but um, the other thing I
Speaker 1: wanted to say, Eric, I think is important, is um
Speaker 1: And it about this is that I, when I got raped,
Speaker 1: I had already developed a way of protecting myself from
Speaker 1: chaos and trauma and a lot of these experiences they
Speaker 1: talked about in this paper, right, And one of the
Speaker 1: ways was too I would go numb. I figured that
Speaker 1: if I go numb and going myself and I'm quiet
Speaker 1: when all this chaos is going on, people will it
Speaker 1: will not see me and I won't get hurt. Right.
Speaker 1: I learned that as a child, right, and to deal
Speaker 1: with chaos. When I got raped, I never thought because
Speaker 1: that that way of dealing with chaos instantly clicked in, right,
Speaker 1: and I went numb and I didn't I didn't feel
Speaker 1: any pain when the guy was raping me. I didn't
Speaker 1: feel any pain. And the idea was, if I'm quiet,
Speaker 1: he'll do his thing and he'll go away, because if
Speaker 1: I fight, it'll make it worse and longer, and he'll
Speaker 1: just get it done. But I claimed I didn't realize
Speaker 1: this until recently. I claimed a victory in the way
Speaker 1: that I dealt with that, that particular way of dealing
Speaker 1: with trauma or dealing with being hurt. Was that what
Speaker 1: the thing the man said to me afterwards was you
Speaker 1: didn't cry and it pissed him off Jesus that. But
Speaker 1: see what the thing is now, you know, and I
Speaker 1: that was a very important piece because he didn't get
Speaker 1: something that he wanted for me, and the thing that
Speaker 1: I had developed over the years to protect me protected
Speaker 1: me at that point in time in a certain way
Speaker 1: because rape is about power and he didn't get that
Speaker 1: in that piece. Now he hurt me very well, you know,
Speaker 1: like and there was tons of pain later. But what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is is, like, you know, the freeze mode
Speaker 1: is not an effective way to live your life for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life. But it was something I
Speaker 1: developed as a child because I didn't know how else
Speaker 1: to develop it. Right now, it made me and it's
Speaker 1: a very confusing thing because it made me vulnerable to
Speaker 1: re victimization, which happened when I was raped, But it
Speaker 1: also did something for me, you know, does am I coming?
Speaker 1: But now as it's as an adult, as I've grown
Speaker 1: in my knees have changed, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: somebody that freezes, you know, because if reverberates in the
Speaker 1: rest of part of my life in ways that are
Speaker 1: you know, way complex beyond what we could talk about here.
Speaker 1: So I'm starting to change that. But when I saw
Speaker 1: and recognize that piece that success, oddly enough, it gave
Speaker 1: me release. And now I'm becoming a little more. I'm
Speaker 1: growing in the way that I am okay with Okay,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I see I'm kind of numbing out here.
Speaker 1: I'm going to stop that and put myself out and
Speaker 1: be vulnerable. And it started that release. I don't, you know,
Speaker 1: have no way of explaining why that happened, but it
Speaker 1: clicked in my head, it clicked in the mind, the
Speaker 1: way of my body felt. So I guess this whole point,
Speaker 1: in a in a roundabout way of this study is
Speaker 1: that acknowledging like details of the trauma before like getting
Speaker 1: to that point of I'm taking responsibility for myself. There's
Speaker 1: a piece there that has to happen, or that's important
Speaker 1: to happen for some people, just at least in my
Speaker 1: experience in what I've seen. Well, even by responsibility, all
Speaker 1: I mean is that if there's going to be any healing,
Speaker 1: it's gonna come from you, right, That's all I mean
Speaker 1: is that it's the it's the nobody else is going
Speaker 1: to do this for us. Fortunately, or unfortunately, it's not fair, Right,
Speaker 1: It's not fair that people can be victimized. It's not
Speaker 1: fair that people can be raped and then be the
Speaker 1: one who has to clean up the mess themselves. Right,
Speaker 1: that's bullshit, But it's the way it is. And so
Speaker 1: and and I understand totally what you're saying. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I believe most I'll just use the term
Speaker 1: bad behavior right for lack of a better term, let's
Speaker 1: just sum it all up, addiction of all kinds and
Speaker 1: all that stuff in effective behavior? How about that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: is is a is a coping mechanism. And the problem is,
Speaker 1: at least in my case, I said it on the
Speaker 1: show several times, alcohol to drinks is the best antidepressant
Speaker 1: still to this day, that has ever been found for me, Right,
Speaker 1: it is, the problem is that the side effects in
Speaker 1: my case are pretty damn severe. And so that coping
Speaker 1: mechanism did help me for a while, and then it
Speaker 1: outlived its usefulness, and so it was about finding a
Speaker 1: different way to to do that. So, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not. I know that sounds harsh when I'm like, it's,
Speaker 1: you know, that person's responsibility. I just realized, you know, again,
Speaker 1: I think it's part of getting sober. Any of that
Speaker 1: is the responsibility is Okay, if I want to be better,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be the one who's going to have
Speaker 1: to lead that process. Now. I also don't mean to
Speaker 1: make it sound like you should go it alone, because
Speaker 1: there's no need to do that and you shouldn't, but
Speaker 1: it it's an internal like, Okay, I'm the one responsible
Speaker 1: for getting better, not not in any way like I'm
Speaker 1: responsible for that that happened to me. Is if that
Speaker 1: makes sense right? Well, I think that, Yeah, one of
Speaker 1: the piece I forgot there is and that's like the
Speaker 1: study kind of getting to the point of the study
Speaker 1: is the piece before a person is responsible. Was a
Speaker 1: lot of people, even myself, I didn't realize, Oh that
Speaker 1: made me like why I understood the rape partment was
Speaker 1: a victimization, but not the early childhood stuff because nobody
Speaker 1: beat me, right, you know, like it wasn't. And so
Speaker 1: until somebody like it was like a provider or you know,
Speaker 1: a physician that that pointed that out to me, like, hey,
Speaker 1: these experiences are traumatic for you. And so that's what
Speaker 1: that's what the paper is saying as well, is physicians
Speaker 1: need to acknowledge that and maybe start to let the
Speaker 1: patient know, hey, these might be things that are causing that,
Speaker 1: and that acknowledgement a lot of times, you know, some
Speaker 1: people will take it as an excuse to do whatever,
Speaker 1: but the acknowledgement also is a powerful point of getting
Speaker 1: someone set on the way to making positive changes in
Speaker 1: their life. Our paper that we're talking about today, I
Speaker 1: think that's the scientific impact aside the real you know,
Speaker 1: we always hope that our research comes out and starts
Speaker 1: to affect the way real world treatment is delivered, the messages, Hey,
Speaker 1: primary care providers, it's important to start to be on
Speaker 1: alert that these particular diseases that one might not even
Speaker 1: connect to anything that happened in childhood might be connected
Speaker 1: to that. And understanding and helping you know, the provider
Speaker 1: understanding that and letting the patient become understand that might
Speaker 1: set them on a path that could help them start
Speaker 1: to take And that's the that's the main piece of
Speaker 1: the paper. Yep. I agree. I agree. I think it's
Speaker 1: that idea of and I think a lot of what
Speaker 1: this show tries to do is to normalize the human experience.
Speaker 1: You know, the whole idea of the two Wolves right there,
Speaker 1: they're at battle. You know. I find that so profound
Speaker 1: because that's going on for all of us. Right It's
Speaker 1: not like there's something wrong with me. But I think
Speaker 1: the same thing recognizing trauma or childhood be use is like,
Speaker 1: this is part of what's happening here, and I'm not
Speaker 1: alone in it, and it's part of it's part of
Speaker 1: why I am the way I am. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't think we tend to swing between two extremes. One
Speaker 1: is like, I'm not responsible for anything in my life
Speaker 1: that's happened to me, and the other is I'm responsible
Speaker 1: for everything that's happened for me, and so if I'm
Speaker 1: behaving badly, it's because I'm a piece of you know what,
Speaker 1: and I'm very abusive and awful to myself and like everything.
Speaker 1: I find that the middle ground is the place to
Speaker 1: be with that, And in order to find a middle ground,
Speaker 1: one of the things you have to have is the
Speaker 1: self knowledge to be able to make your way there. No,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a good point. Going back to something
Speaker 1: you said about one of the goals of the show
Speaker 1: about acknowledging the self knowledge of acknowledging normalizing behavior and
Speaker 1: normalizing human experiences. So I think what you're getting out
Speaker 1: there is someone you know, like, hey, I was a
Speaker 1: victim of trauma and being able to take the stigma
Speaker 1: away from that and acknowledge it. Right, Is that what
Speaker 1: you were Yeah? Yeah, I mean in general, I think
Speaker 1: I try and do that with the show as a whole.
Speaker 1: In this case, yes, that's the that's the specific. This
Speaker 1: is very important. This is another very important piece of
Speaker 1: the behavior or the paper, one of the stigmas that
Speaker 1: you see in trauma. You know, we always had the
Speaker 1: same issue with am I an alcoholic? Right? Because I'm
Speaker 1: not the guy underneath the bridge in a trench coat
Speaker 1: drinking mad Dog whatever? You know, the gut. I drank
Speaker 1: lots of mad Dog, but okay, yeah mad Dog? Yes,
Speaker 1: And um so the same thing happens with trauma. I'm
Speaker 1: not a victim of trauma. My parents didn't beat me
Speaker 1: or I wasn't molested. Well, the way they define trauma
Speaker 1: and here, you know, they added this household dysfunction category,
Speaker 1: so it kind of expands it beyond what we might
Speaker 1: characterize as traumatic. So we've got to get away from
Speaker 1: this idea that I'm not deserving of, you know, acknowledging
Speaker 1: that I had experiences as a child that we're incredibly
Speaker 1: impactful on my adult health. And that's really all it is. Now.
Speaker 1: It's not a so And some people's experience could be,
Speaker 1: you know, very violent. Other people's experience could be exposure
Speaker 1: to a mother that was mentally mentally ill, or father
Speaker 1: that was mentally or a brother, or there's drinking. The
Speaker 1: line that we towed I remember was well, okay, there
Speaker 1: was alcoholism my family, but I'm completely responsible for that
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with me becoming an alcoholic. Well
Speaker 1: that's bullshit, you know, there's just nonsense. So what this
Speaker 1: is saying is, Okay, these are negative experiences as a child,
Speaker 1: whether it's just seeing your father drink or having your
Speaker 1: father beat you with a belt, whatever, your experiences to
Speaker 1: the point where you bleed ones more one. Let's we
Speaker 1: can categorize those as more extreme one is the other.
Speaker 1: But the main idea here is, well, okay, that's fine,
Speaker 1: but in later adult life both can increase your risk
Speaker 1: for some significant health problems. And like your point of
Speaker 1: your show normalizing behavior, let's let's acknowledge this, right, Let's
Speaker 1: acknowledge this and deal with it, and you know, the
Speaker 1: big theme of your show about really learning how to
Speaker 1: build a life worth living and changing these effects to
Speaker 1: the first step, right is acknowledging it so and we
Speaker 1: haven't yet with trauma. I think we're starting to. All Right, Well,
Speaker 1: this has gone way longer than I expected. I expected
Speaker 1: this to be a short conversation. But John, thank you. Listeners.
Speaker 1: Let me know what you think of this. If you
Speaker 1: want a boy, that will be tough. Though. If they
Speaker 1: come back and they're like, we don't want to hear
Speaker 1: from John and I tell you that, John, it's gonna
Speaker 1: be a whole new kind of trauma, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: how we're going to handle that anyway. Listeners, I'll deal
Speaker 1: with John's feelings. You you just tell me whether you
Speaker 1: like it or not. All right, signing off, Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me by everyone. New episode out on Tuesday as always.