1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hey, folks, Kate Judson here. I'm a lawyer and the 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: executive director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences. 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: We're back with another episode of Junk Science, a series 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: we first released in twenty twenty, but these stories are 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: just as relevant as ever. This is the last episode 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: of our series and one that's especially close to my heart. 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: Shake and baby syndrome is one of the main focuses 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: of my work, and I am interviewed in the episode 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: you're about to hear. Shake and baby syndrome is a 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: determination doctors make when a certain constellation of medical findings 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: show up together in a child, and as we'll hear later, 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: there are many reasons for these findings to show up together, 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: not just child abuse. Shake and baby syndrome, also sometimes 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: called abusive head trauma, isn't the only reliable science used 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: to take kids away from their parents and lock up caregivers. 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: Others similarly vague or poorly understood diagnoses have led to 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: the separation and victimization of families. In these cases, the 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: errors of medical and legal systems intertwine, creating a tangled 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: mess that can be difficult to solve and heartbreaking for 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: everyone involved. 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: At six pm, and the usual controlled cast of the 22 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 2: day is finally wound down. Most of your daylight hours 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: are filled with the sounds of giggling kids and, yes, 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: the occasional whining and tantrums. You've been a licensed childcare 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: provider for the past fifteen years and you run a 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: daycare center out of your house. You wave goodbye to 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: the last toddler to get picked up by his dad 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: from your doorway, then you head back inside. Your two 29 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: middle schoolers are sitting at the kitchen table doing their homework, 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: so you take advantage of the brief moment of quiet 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: to start getting dinner ready. But the quiet doesn't last 32 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: more than a few minutes. There's a knock on the door. 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: You're sure it's one of the kid's parents picking up 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: a missing toy, but your heart sinks to your stomach 35 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: when you see that it's the police. You quickly open 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: the door, worry that something might have happened to your husband, 37 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: who hasn't gotten home from work yet. Hi, there is 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: everything okay? You ask They ask you your name, and 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: they say, ma'am, do you run a daycare out of 40 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: this house? Yes? I do. What seems to be the 41 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: problem you'll need to come with us. What do you 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: mean I can right now. I'm getting dinner ready for 43 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: my kids. Ma'am. You don't understand. You need to turn 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: around and put your hands behind your back. You're under arrest. 45 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: You'll feel the cold handcuffs tighten around your wrists. What 46 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: is this all about. There's a child in your care name. 47 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: You know who Maria is, ma'am. She died from brain 48 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 2: injuries after spending the day in your care. So I'm 49 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: gonna read you your rights. You're speechless, Maria, that little 50 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 2: girl who spent one session at your daycare months ago. 51 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: You can't compute, but you're a mom, and so you 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: leap into action for your kids. You don't want to 53 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: scare them, so you try to prevent your voice from 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: cracking as you call them over. You tell your fourteen 55 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: year old look after your little brother. Call your dad, 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: he'll be here soon. Tell him not to worry, and 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 2: you don't worry. This is all going to work out. 58 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: You put on a brave face for them, and you 59 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: try not to panic as one of the officers pushes 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: your head down in that classic move that leads a 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: suspect into the back of a police car. Your world 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: has turned upside down in an instant. As the police 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: car pulls away from your house and down the street 64 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: toward the County gi you sit in jail before your 65 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: trial and replay the events of the day. You watch 66 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: Maria over and over again in your head. You were 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: sitting on the carpet helping one of the little boys 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: get a train rolling on its tracks when there was 69 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: a knock at the door. You answered it and you 70 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: saw a smiling baby in the arms of her mother. 71 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: This must be Maria, you said, smiling at the toddler. 72 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: You took Maria from her mother's arms and helped the 73 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 2: little girl wave goodbye with her tiny hand while her 74 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: mom pulled out of the driveway. Maria was happy and 75 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: playful all day until about noon. She started crying, and 76 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: you recognize that as the telltale sign of a tired baby. 77 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: You put her down for a nap, and a few 78 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: hours later Maria's mom came back. Maria was still sleeping. 79 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: You watched her pick Maria up from the crib, trying 80 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: not to wake her. Maria slept on her mom's shoulder 81 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: the whole way to the car. You watched as they 82 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: pulled out of the driveway. That's everything you can remember 83 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: from that day, but that's not what happened. What you 84 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: didn't know is that when Maria and her mother pulled 85 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: up to their home, Maria was slumped over in her 86 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: car seat, her head almost in her lap, and she'd 87 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: thrown up all over herself. Maria wouldn't wake up, so 88 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: her mom called nine to one one and she was 89 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: rushed to the hospital. The doctor said that the baby's 90 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: brain was bleeding and swollen, and her blood sugar was high. 91 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: The doctors frantically worked on her, trying to revive her, 92 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: but eventually Maria was put on life support. She died 93 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: about a week later. Approximately two months after that, the 94 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: police showed up at your house and arrested you. Sitting 95 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 2: in your jail cell, you're paralyzed by the horror of 96 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: all this. One family lost their baby, and your kids 97 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: are at home wondering if their mother will be around 98 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: to watch them grow up. Now it's the day of 99 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: your trial. Your lawyer doesn't dispute that bleeding and swelling 100 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: of Maria's brain caused her death, but there was no 101 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: evidence that it was caused by anything you did. There 102 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 2: was no evidence whatsoever that you abused Maria in any way. 103 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: She didn't have any broken bones, no injuries to her 104 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: neck or spinal column or anything like that. And there was, 105 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: in fact another explanation for Maria's injuries. When she had 106 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: been admitted to the hospital, her blood sugar level was 107 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: four times higher than what was considered to be normal, 108 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: and so it was possible that Maria's brain injuries may 109 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: have been caused by an undiagnosed metabolic disorder like diabetes. 110 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: But when the prosecution makes its case, the pain and 111 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: mystery around Maria's death is sharpened to a fine point. 112 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: A child abuse specialist takes the stand and tells the 113 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: jury that Maria had bleeding and swelling in her brain 114 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 2: and bleeding behind her eyes. Let me make it clear, 115 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: the expert witness said, these injuries mean that Maria incurred 116 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: physical abuse associated with trauma to the head. There is 117 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: no other way these injuries could have occurred. You sit 118 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: there next to your defense attorney and your heart starts 119 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: beating fast, your sweating. You know what she's saying can't 120 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: be true. You've been watching kids for your entire adult life. 121 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: You would never, you have never hurt a child. And 122 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: yet you know that if you were a member of 123 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: that jury and you heard this testimony from this doctor, 124 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,559 Speaker 2: that you would probably believe it too. You would also 125 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: want to be able to hold someone accountable for the 126 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: death of this innocent child. When the jury goes into 127 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: their deliberations, you're not just worried about the outcome of 128 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: your trial. Your heart is also broken for Maria's family. 129 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: You know you'll never be able to wrap your head 130 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: around their grief, but you also know that putting an 131 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: innocent person in prison won't bring their baby back. After 132 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: just two days of deliberating, the jury comes back with 133 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: a guilty verdict. You bury your face in your hands 134 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: as the verdict has read. At your sentencing, the prosecution 135 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 2: reads letters from Maria's family. Her mother had addressed one 136 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: of them to you. It said, you killed my baby. Why? 137 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: Why did you do this? I beg this chord to 138 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 2: give you the maximum sentence possible. You are sentenced to 139 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: fifteen years in prison for manslaughter. The story you just 140 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: heard is loosely based on Stephanie Spurgeon's wrongful conviction in 141 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. Innocent people have been convicted based 142 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: on medical testimony, which claims that three symptoms bleeding of 143 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: the brain, swelling of the brain, and bleeding behind the eyes, 144 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 2: indicates a form of child abuse referred to as shaken 145 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: baby syndrome, but this medical testimony has proven to be problematic. 146 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: With the help of the Innocence Project and the Exoneration 147 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 2: Project from the University of Chicago Law School, the evidence 148 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: in Stephanie's case was re examined and she was released 149 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 2: from prison in August twenty twenty. But many others are 150 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: not as lucky and continue to serve sentences for crimes 151 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: they did not commit. There's nothing more devastating than the 152 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: death of a child. When a tragedy like that occurs, 153 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 2: it's natural to want answers, how did this happen, who 154 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: should we hold accountable for this, and what could have 155 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: been done to prevent it. What might be most difficult 156 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,359 Speaker 2: for jurors to accept is that the death was completely accidental, 157 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: that there was nothing anyone did to cause it, and 158 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: nothing could have been done to stop it. I'm Josh Dubin, 159 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: civil rights and criminal defense attorney, an Innocent ambassador to 160 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: the Innocence Project in New York. Today on wrongful conviction, 161 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: junk science we'll explore how what's known as shaken baby 162 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: syndrome has been used to falsely implicate people in crimes 163 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: that they did not commit. It turns out that shaken 164 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: baby syndrome isn't a full proof diagnosis. There are many 165 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: other causes for the symptoms of shaken baby syndrome that 166 00:10:54,559 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: do not arise from intentionally shaking a baby. In nineteen 167 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: sixty nine, two scientists put a live reciss monkey under 168 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: anesthesia and strapped it to a chair made of fiberglass. 169 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 2: The fiberglass chair was then attached to roller skate wheels. 170 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: When the tiny car accelerated and then decelerated quickly, the 171 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: passenger's head that is, the monkey's head, was flung backwards 172 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: then quickly snapped forward. Scientists wanted to study the effect 173 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 2: of whiplash during a car crash, so the tiny car 174 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: with the little monkey passenger was designed to mimic the 175 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 2: movement of a car during a rear end collision. Of 176 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: the fifty monkeys that took a ride in the whiplash car, 177 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: nineteen of them sustained a concussion. The study proved that 178 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 2: direct impact from a hard surface to the head isn't 179 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: necessary to cause traumatic brain injuries. The human brain can 180 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: be injured just from a head being violently jerked back 181 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: and forth, causing the brain to rattle around inside the skull. 182 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: This study had important repercussions for car safety. It's part 183 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 2: of the reason why cars are supposed to have headrests 184 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: to prevent brain injuries due to whiplash during an accident. 185 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: But this study also interested a British pediatric neurosurgeon named 186 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: Norman Guthkelch. Now, Doctor Guthkelch had been noticing infants coming 187 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: into his office with no outward signs of abuse, no bruising, 188 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: no broken bones, but they had bleeding around their brain. 189 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: He wondered if these children had been getting whiplash not 190 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: from a car crash, but from their parents and caregivers. Now, 191 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: at the time in Northern England, shaking babies was a 192 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: socially acceptable way of calming, quieting, and even disciplining a 193 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: fussy baby. In fact, when doctor Guthkelch saw children with 194 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 2: bleeding around their brain, he asked parents if they sometimes 195 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: shook their child. Many parents readily confess they would say yes. 196 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: Johnny wouldn't stop crying, so I gave him a good 197 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: shaking doctor guth Kelch suspected that shaking an infant mimicked 198 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: the motion of whiplash, and so he wrote a short 199 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 2: two page paper. It said that trauma to a baby's brain, 200 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: even when no other signs of physical abuse were present, 201 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: may in fact be caused by violent shaking. Doctor guth 202 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: Kelch never claimed that there might not be other causes 203 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: of bleeding around the brain. He simply hypothesized that shaking 204 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: might be the cause of it. His hope was that 205 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: doctors who read his study would help teach parents to 206 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: handle their infants more gently to avoid accidental harm. After 207 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: doctor guth Kelch's article was published, other doctors continue to 208 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: research this issue. They found that three symptoms in particular 209 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: were associated with shaking a baby. These symptoms were subdural hematoma, 210 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: retinal hemorrhage, and cerebral edema that is bleeding around the brain, 211 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: bleeding behind the eyes, and brain swelling. These three symptoms 212 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: became known as the quote classic triad, the signs that 213 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: are said to be an indicator of shaken baby syndrome. 214 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: The problem is that these three symptoms became synonymous with 215 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: shaken baby syndrome. If these three symptoms were present, it 216 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: was thought that a parent or caretaker must have intentionally 217 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: shaken their infant, and so when parents showed up to 218 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: the hospital with a sick child who exhibited some or 219 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: all of the symptoms of the triad, their children were 220 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: taken away from them. The parents were put on trial, 221 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: and they were sometimes convicted of abusing or even killing 222 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: their own child. As parents started to be accused of 223 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: child abuse based solely on the hypothesis of shaking baby syndrome, 224 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: doctor Gothkelch knew he had to do something he never 225 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: meant for his short paper to be used as a 226 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: tool for prosecution. The whole point of his paper was 227 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: to help parents, not criminalize them. Doctor Guthkelch continued to 228 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: fight for wrongfully convicted parents and caregivers up until he 229 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: died in twenty sixteen at the ripe age of one 230 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: hundred and one years old. 231 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: No one was really suggesting that this should be a 232 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: mechanism for prosecuting anyone. They acknowledged, and you know, pretty 233 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 3: clearly articulated that what they were talking about was a 234 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 3: hypothesis about why children might have these findings. But it 235 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 3: then started to be used as a paradigm for prosecution, 236 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: and that's really where it runs into trouble because instead 237 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: of continuing to research and look for answers, physicians and 238 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: prosecutors started to accept it without looking further into the 239 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: kinds of claims that experts were making about it. 240 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: Today on our show, we're speaking with Kate Judson. Kate 241 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: is the executive director for the Center for Integrity and 242 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: Forensic Sciences, and she was one of the lawyers who 243 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: represented Stephanie Spurgeon, whose story we discussed at the beginning 244 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: of our show. So to start tell us about what 245 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: we should understand about the difference between shaking baby syndrome 246 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: as a hypothesis rather than as a diagnosis. 247 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of ways in which 248 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 3: it differs significantly from other medical diagnoses. So child abuse 249 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: and particularly shaken baby syndrome is much more a determination 250 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: of etiology of how somebody got the medical findings then 251 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 3: the medical findings themselves. So the kinds of findings that 252 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 3: are often attributed to child abuse in shaken baby syndrome 253 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 3: and abusive head trauma cases can be due to trauma, 254 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: but it isn't always, so there are medical conditions that 255 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 3: can cause these kinds of medical findings as well, and 256 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 3: so sometimes the evidence of actual innocence is new medical 257 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 3: opinions that support the idea that the child had a 258 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: disease or another kind of condition that led to their 259 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 3: medical findings, rather than any kind of trauma or abuse. 260 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: So let's back off for a second to when this 261 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: first started to be used at trial. How did this 262 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 2: diagnosis become something that prosecutors were able to weaponize against defendants. 263 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 3: Part of what makes it seductive if you're trying to 264 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 3: protect children and punish wrongdoing is that it seemed at 265 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: the time very definitive. Pyusicians were saying, if a child 266 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 3: has this set of injuries, they have been abused, and 267 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 3: that abuse consisted of shaking, and we know that, and 268 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: there are no exceptions, or very very few exceptions. I mean, 269 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 3: in fact, at the time, there are plenty of transcripts 270 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: available where physicians said nothing else causes this, right, and 271 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: so it gives a very clear and definitive answer. No 272 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: one has to wonder in the face of such an answer, 273 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 3: what happened to a child who died, who previously would 274 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 3: have no explanation for their death. It's definitive, it's clear 275 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: and frankly, really effective in court, often resulting in a 276 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: conviction almost all the time. So I think that it 277 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: gave people who were involved in the criminal legal system 278 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: the impression that they were successfully locking up people who 279 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 3: were dangerous who had murdered a child. And it turns 280 00:18:53,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: out it's not that straightforward. 281 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: So tell us more about other ways a child can 282 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: come to have the same kind of symptoms or the 283 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: same sort of trauma that are usually associated with shaking 284 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: baby syndrome. 285 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 3: There are things like infection, serious infection, genetic disorders, problems 286 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 3: with blood clotting, certain kinds of tumors, certain kinds of 287 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: blood cloths, you know, like a pediatric stroke. There are 288 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 3: cases where the medical findings are thought to have arisen 289 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: after events like choking. But what really started to come 290 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 3: to light in twenty sixteen there was a report done 291 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: by the Swedish government that looked at medical literature that 292 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: discussed you know what is colloquially called the triad that 293 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 3: the combination of subdralhematoma, rental hemorrhage, and cerebral edema, and 294 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 3: looked at children who were diagnosed as and studies of 295 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: children who were diagnosed as being abused based on those findings. 296 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 3: What they found was that the data was not there, 297 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 3: that it was very incomplete, and they recommended that the 298 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 3: Swedish government no longer prosecute people under that paradigm. And 299 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: the reaction that that got from, you know, child advocates 300 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 3: and child abust pediatricians was simply to attack the people 301 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 3: who did the report. You know, there's been a real 302 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 3: lack of serious engagement around the failings in the literature 303 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 3: that everybody knows are there, and so that is really 304 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 3: a shame and that's not how science progresses, and that's 305 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: not how people get fair trials. People who who are 306 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: admirably concerned about protecting children have unfortunately written things like 307 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 3: editorials in journals engaging in personal attacks instead of trying 308 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: to figure out how to best approach these kinds of cases. 309 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: And that's part of what makes studies and being critical 310 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: of the shaken baby hypothesis really difficult. People often assume 311 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: that critics of shaken baby syndrome are trying to side 312 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: with child abusers, and of course that's not the case. Researchers, doctors, 313 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: lawyers who are critical of shaking baby syndrome are just 314 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: trying to make sure that people don't get accused of 315 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: crimes they didn't commit based on misleading evidence. And on 316 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: the other side of this battle, there are well meaning 317 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 2: people who are trying to protect children from abuse. I 318 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: know that expert witnesses and cases involving child abuse are 319 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: often doctors, So tell us more about that. Who are 320 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: the doctors who testify during these cases for the prosecution 321 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: as experts? 322 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 3: So there are different kinds of physicians. They're not always 323 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: child abuse pediatricians, but they frequently are child abuse pediatricians. 324 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 3: There are about three hundred child abuse pediatricians in the 325 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: United States. It's a new subspecialty. I believe the first 326 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: child abuse pediatricians were board certified in twenty eleven, so 327 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: it's quite new. So their job is to evaluate children 328 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 3: in hospitals or clinics for child abuse and yes, to 329 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 3: testify in cases or to create reports for law enforcement 330 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 3: agencies for the courts. 331 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: So that's interesting. I guess talking about biases, I could 332 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: imagine that someone who's trained to look for child abuse 333 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 2: could just start seeing abuse everywhere. It's what they know, 334 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: it's what they study, it's what they look for. They think, 335 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: you know, this is a symptom that comes up with 336 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: people who are victims of abuse, so it must be abused. 337 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,479 Speaker 2: It's you know, becomes difficult to see outside of your 338 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 2: own tunnel vision. And so when a medical specialty is 339 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: geared directly towards one conclusion or looking out for one thing, 340 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: of course, even with the best of intentions, it could 341 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: be easy for these doctors to get tunnel vision right. 342 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 3: That's a real concern when analysts are, for example, embedded 343 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: with law enforcement. When the crime lab is part of 344 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 3: the police department, for example, we see this role affects bias. 345 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 3: Analysts start to see themselves as part of the law 346 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: enforcement team rather than as an objective, independent scientist. But 347 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 3: the same issue was present when child abuse pediatricians are 348 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 3: part of a child abuse team, especially when those teams 349 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: involve police and investigators and prosecutors and don't involve people, 350 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,479 Speaker 3: for example, from the defense bar. And since they're all 351 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 3: human beings, it's not unreasonable to say that the same 352 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 3: concerns we have about analysts housed within a police station 353 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 3: or who work very closely with police and prosecutors, that 354 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 3: other kinds of experts might be subject to those same biases. 355 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: I think another reason that there are so many wrongful 356 00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: convictions when people are accused of abuse, is that everybody involved, jurors, lawyers, 357 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 2: the doctors, they don't want to get it wrong because, 358 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 2: let's just face it, setting a potential child abuse are 359 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: free is a scary proposition. The stakes are very high 360 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: in these cases. 361 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: So really often I hear people respond to these concerns, 362 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 3: particularly people who are who are working in kind of 363 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 3: the child abuse field, respond to these concerns about wrongful 364 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 3: convictions by saying, well, we just want to air on 365 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 3: the side of the child, right, But in these kinds 366 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: of cases there's really no way to do that. Any 367 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 3: error is harmful. This idea that you can air safely 368 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 3: on the side of the child is a false one. 369 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: And that's because if you get this wrong. If a 370 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 3: child is being diagnosed as or being determined to have 371 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: been abused and they haven't been, a couple of things 372 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 3: can happen. One is that a child can be deprived 373 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 3: of a loving home and separated from loving parents and caregivers. 374 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 3: And studies have shown over and over and over again 375 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 3: that separating children from their family is traumatic. It is 376 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 3: sometimes a necessary harm, but it is always harmful. 377 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 2: Even for people who are just accused of child abuse 378 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 2: and they don't get convicted, but just have to go 379 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: through the trial. That in itself can be so damaging 380 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: to children and their families. 381 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 3: I mean it's anecdotal, but I pretty frequently hear from 382 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: families who say, like, we're really grateful that nobody in 383 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 3: our family was convicted, but our kids are still suffering 384 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 3: all kinds of harm and problems from the trauma that 385 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 3: was inflicted upon them just from even a brief separation. 386 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 3: So there may very well be good reason reasons to 387 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 3: separate families, But what we can't do is go to 388 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 3: court and say that the abuse is more definitive than 389 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: the science actually supp if that makes sense. The other 390 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 3: problem is that when these cases are not medically investigated carefully, 391 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: there is the chance that a child will be classified 392 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 3: as having been abused when they actually have a serious illness, 393 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: and that is also really problematic can potentially lead to 394 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 3: more harm or even death because of that misdiagnosis. 395 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: It seems almost unlikely that evidence in child abuse cases 396 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: can be similar to other forensic disciplines that we've talked 397 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 2: about on our show, But it turns out that the 398 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: same tactics used to convict people based on faulty pattern 399 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: matching evidence, for example, is really the same thing we're 400 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 2: dealing with here. In instances of you know, alleged. 401 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: Child abuse, the kind of biases that we see in 402 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: other kinds of forensic sciences are certainly present here. And 403 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 3: because there is no gold standard criteria, no simple or 404 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 3: single test that allows any to make a diagnosis of 405 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: child abuse, you end up having to fall back on 406 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 3: so much subjectivity of the person examining the child and 407 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 3: looking at the facts, and what we know from pattern 408 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: matching disciplines in particular, but also things like ours and investigation, 409 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: is that the more subjectivity that is introduced into the system, 410 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: the less reliable your result can be. Sometimes when you 411 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: look at the breakdown of cases where people get wrongfully 412 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 3: convicted based on faulty forensic science, and a majority of them, 413 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 3: part of the faulty forensic science is that the expert 414 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 3: spoke to the jury with more certainty than the science warranted. 415 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 3: The same is true in cases with medical testimony. So 416 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 3: when a doctor says that a fracture or a subdural 417 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: hematoma or a retinal hemorrhage can only be caused by 418 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 3: child abuse, and there's no other explanation that is definitive, 419 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 3: it is convincing that is stated with more certainty than 420 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: the science can support, and that can certainly lead to 421 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 3: an unfair trial and a wrongful conviction. 422 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 2: So, in your opinion, when something as tragic as a 423 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 2: baby dying happens, what can we do to make sure 424 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: that the cause of death is determined correctly so that 425 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: parents and caretakers stop being wrongfully accused based on this 426 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 2: shaken baby hypothesis. 427 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 3: There really should be really rigorous testing in all of 428 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 3: these cases, and not every case out there gets the 429 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 3: benefit of really careful, comprehensive testing. There's actually kind of 430 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 3: a famous case that a district attorney from Queen's has 431 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 3: used in a bunch of presentations where there was a 432 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 3: videotaped fall. A child fell at a mall and off 433 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 3: of just a really short fall off of a piece 434 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: of playground equipment and later died, and investigators embarked upon 435 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 3: an extremely complex and comprehensive medical evaluation, and when they 436 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 3: did that, they found that there were potentially some blood 437 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: disorders lurking within the family. And while the child who 438 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 3: died never definitively tested positive for a bleeding disorder. Her 439 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 3: parents were carrying genes that suggested that she may have 440 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 3: had one that may have contributed to her death. But 441 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 3: I have to tell you that it's uncommon that that 442 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: kind of testing is done. I have seen it become 443 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 3: more common, and hopefully it will continue to become more common. 444 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: But that's just a great example of really thorough evaluation, 445 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 3: clarifying that a deceased child died because of a tragic accident, 446 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 3: not because anybody hurt her. 447 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: When I think about people convicted based on this type 448 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: of evidence, it's usually a parent that we're talking about. 449 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: Someone who has just lost their child, is going through 450 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 2: this unimaginable tragedy, and then to be accused of being 451 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: the one that actually inflicted this harm a lot to 452 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 2: wrap your head around. It's like too much to. 453 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 3: Bear for parents who go through this. They have a 454 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 3: double tragedy, right They have the loss of the life 455 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: or health of their child, which is incredibly tragic, and 456 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 3: then they have this prosecution, which threatens their freedom, often 457 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: threatens their relationship with their other children. In some of 458 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 3: these cases, parents might lose custody of other children in 459 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 3: the family, it's horrifying. It's horrifying as. 460 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: A lawyer to it. It must be difficult to be 461 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: watching this unfold. 462 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an incredibly emotional situation. And in fact, there 463 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 3: are some lawyers who find these cases so disturbing and 464 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: disruptive that they do one and they never want to 465 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: do another one. You do care about that happening. I mean, 466 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 3: it's not easy. It's always difficult. They are very emotional, 467 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 3: they are very upsetting. It is it's difficult to be 468 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 3: there for someone who has gone through, like, like I said, 469 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 3: this double tragedy, right where a child that you know 470 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: that they loved and cared about is gone or very 471 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 3: or were very different, and then they've they've been accused 472 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 3: of this crime they didn't commit. It's it's it's terrible. 473 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 3: I think the only reason why I feel compelled to 474 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 3: keep doing it is that what has happened to these 475 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: folks is wrong and someone has to help them and 476 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: stand up for them. It's not an easy thing, but 477 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 3: I think it's a necessary one. 478 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: When I agreed to host this podcast, I set out 479 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: to expose some of the many flaws that exist in 480 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: our criminal justice system. Specifically, what I wanted to do 481 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: was address what goes wrong when jurors are presented with 482 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 2: what they are told this science but actually turns out 483 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: to be well junk. The harms of junk science go 484 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 2: beyond innocent people having to endure the unthinkable nightmare of 485 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: being accused and convicted of crimes they did not commit. 486 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: The consequences extend even further than those people having to 487 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: endure the rawest and most cutting of human suffering, being 488 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: torn from their life and locked in a cage. In 489 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 2: addition to that human tragedy, junk science causes the moral 490 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: fabric of our judicial system to wear and tear at 491 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: the seams. It causes an entire institution of law and 492 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: order and justice to be completely undermined. In examining the 493 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: various disciplines of forensic science we've discussed this season, whether 494 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: it was our sin or blood spatter, eyewitness identification, or, 495 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: as in this episode, shaking baby syndrome. I knew it 496 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: would be interesting and enlightening, but I never expected it 497 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: to affect me in the profound manner that it has. 498 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: I have been in turns dumbfounded, angry, saddened, and even outraged. 499 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: A trial is supposed to be a search for the truth. 500 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: The word science itself is defined as the study of 501 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Our 502 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: system of justice has been regarded as not perfect, but 503 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: the best way to ensure that people who are accused 504 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: of crimes get the fairest shake possible. So how is 505 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: our system of justice veered so far off the tracks? 506 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 2: How have we managed to bastardize and bludgeon What science means? 507 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: I don't know if we can ever arrive at a 508 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: clear answer. There are probably many explanations. One thing I 509 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: do know is that when human beings get involved in 510 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: it any endeavor, we bring our own biases or thirst 511 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: for financial gain, our hunches and quirks into the equation, 512 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: and in the process we sometimes create such a mess 513 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 2: that it becomes difficult to untangle the hows and whys 514 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 2: of it all. But I still manage to find hope 515 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,479 Speaker 2: and a way forward. And here's why. If you've ever 516 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: been fortunate enough to meet someone that has spent time 517 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: in prison for a crime they didn't commit, one thing 518 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 2: becomes apparent very quickly. They are the embodiment of all 519 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: that is soaring and remarkable about the human condition. They 520 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: are a special combination of resilience, hope, forgiveness and strength. 521 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 2: They are quite simply a force of nature. So I 522 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 2: will continue to pour my energy, every cell in my 523 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 2: body into helping those who are still behind bars for 524 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: crimes they did not commit. I will fight to restore 525 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: signs to its proper definition in our courtrooms. I am 526 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: propelled by these men and women that represent the triumph 527 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 2: of the human soul. To restore one's life and freedom 528 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 2: is perhaps the highest service to your fellow human being. 529 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: I can't even find the words to describe what it's 530 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: like to walk someone out of a nightmare of a 531 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: prison cell and into the bright light of freedom to 532 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 2: restore a life. The only way I can articulate it 533 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: is that, aside from marrying my wife and the birth 534 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: of my children, it is and always will be my 535 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 2: most important contribution to my fellow human beings. There is 536 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 2: nothing I have done in this life, or could ever 537 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 2: fathom doing, that can ever close. No material gain, no drug, 538 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 2: no drink, nothing at all that can approach the state 539 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: of nirvana that consumes your soul when you have helped 540 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 2: save a life, and I think that says a lot 541 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: about who we are at our essence, we are meant 542 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 2: to be of service to one another, to heal each other, 543 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 2: to restore each other. Not a bad message, if I 544 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 2: do say so myself, at a time when it seems 545 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 2: like we could really use it, I encourage all of 546 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,919 Speaker 2: you to continue to keep your voices up, write those 547 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 2: letters to your local prosecutors and judges, be a more 548 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: conscientious juror pitching in any way that you can. Together 549 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 2: we can ensure that one day there will be no 550 00:36:53,760 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 2: more wrongful convictions Based on Junk Science. Wrongful Conviction Junk 551 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 2: Science is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 552 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 2: association with Signal Company Number One. Thanks to our executive 553 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: producer Jason Flam and the team at Signal Company Number 554 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 2: one executive producer Kevin Wardis and senior producers Kara Kornhaber 555 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 2: and Brit Spangler. Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. 556 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: You can follow me on Instagram at dubin Josh. Follow 557 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 2: the Wrongful Conviction podcast on Facebook and on Instagram at 558 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction and on Twitter at wrong Conviction