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Speaker 1: Well, they're delicious.

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Speaker 2: Friends, you've made it this far, or maybe this is

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Speaker 2: the first time you've joined an episode, but welcome to Hooded.

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Speaker 2: What Now from the Vault? This is well from the Vault.

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Speaker 2: It's an episode about Mary Jane Kelly, the fifth and

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Speaker 2: final canonical victim of the serial killer known as Jack

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Speaker 2: the Ribber. So this episode's going to be a bit

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Speaker 2: different from the other four you've listened to if you

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Speaker 2: have listened to the previous in the series, because we

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Speaker 2: don't know that much about Mary Jane Kelly's life, and

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Speaker 2: what we do know is dubious for a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 2: We have this And I haven't really talked specifically about

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Speaker 2: the deaths of many of the victims because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to focus on their lives. But in this my friend

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Speaker 2: Melissa Rayliffe, her and I have a very deep discussion

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Speaker 2: regarding Mary Jane Kelly, because out of all the victims,

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Speaker 2: her death makes the least sense in the scenario. But

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say this here. You're gonna find out

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Speaker 2: when you listen to the episode.

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Speaker 1: But we were there one day and one of the

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Speaker 1: girls in the in the kitchen, it was like, where's Emily.

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Speaker 1: What's Emily like? And everyone's like, who the fuck is Emily? Like,

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Speaker 1: who is this Emily person? Sheeps talking about? She thought

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Speaker 1: my name was Emily. So I ended So I ended

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Speaker 1: up with this American persona called Emily. And Emily has

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Speaker 1: the gole fry. And Emily pronounces words incorrectly. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know I pronounce words incorrectly because of my accident.

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Speaker 1: But Emily loves these jella panos and the tortillas. Like

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Speaker 1: Emily is so white. I mean, I know I'm white,

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Speaker 1: but like Emily is so it's such it's such a

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Speaker 1: good time. But honestly, Erin and Tara in Savannah, Amy

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Speaker 1: and Safety John and In Jeremy chare me with the puppies.

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Speaker 1: I just ah, oh, it was so this one time

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Speaker 1: at Pagan Camp. I cannot convey you how much fun

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Speaker 1: this was. I mean I did see a lot of

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Speaker 1: boobs and a lot more genit tale you than I

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Speaker 1: was anticipating I would see, you know, because there are

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Speaker 1: actually signs up in certain areas going like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you need to be dressed to be here, like you

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Speaker 1: need to be clothed or to be in this like location.

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Speaker 1: But it's such a wonderful time, and I I honestly

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Speaker 1: would do so much to get back. I would. I

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Speaker 1: would love to go back there, just a holiday because

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Speaker 1: it's just so wonderful. But I know what you're thinking.

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Speaker 1: You're thinking, got your glibber jabber in fact me, in

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Speaker 1: fact you I will. First, we've got to get our

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Speaker 1: source on Mary Jane Kelly and the Victims of Jack

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Speaker 1: the Ripper by Neil Schulden. The Hidden Lives of Jack

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Speaker 1: the Ripper's Victims by Robert Hume. The Complete History of

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Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper by Philip Sugden. Metropolitan Police three dash

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Speaker 1: one four oh Police Investigation, Paully Nichols, Anti Chaptment, Mary

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Speaker 1: Jane Kelly Metropolitan Police, three dash one for one not

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Speaker 1: in report into the Murders, Palace and Hovelle Phases of

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Speaker 1: London Life by Daniel Joseph Kerwin. When Prostitutes an Ordinary

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Speaker 1: Citizens Commercial Sex in London eighteen eighty five to nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty by Julia Late. The five by Hallie rubin Hold.

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Speaker 1: And of course we have the Echo, Police News, Paul

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Speaker 1: Mall Gazette, Evening Star and the Telegraph. Are you seating

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Speaker 1: comfortably good? Then let's begin so this final episode in

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Speaker 1: the five canonical Victims of Jack the Ripper. So this

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Speaker 1: is about Mary Jane Kelly, and it's because she's known

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Speaker 1: as the last canonical victim of Jack the Ripper. I

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Speaker 1: don't think she is. And I have a special guest

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Speaker 1: later on who's going to come and help me elaborate that.

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Speaker 1: But that's the case. That being said, Mary Jane Kelly

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Speaker 1: is probably the most elusive of every victim that we

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Speaker 1: have dealt with thus far. Because we know Jack, we

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Speaker 1: know absolutely nothing about it. Sorry excuse the pun, but

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Speaker 1: we don't. Every piece of information we have is definitely

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Speaker 1: second third hand. There are very few documents related to

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Speaker 1: her existence, very few, indeed, and we're basically running off

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Speaker 1: a rumor mill. It's whispers and hints and stories. There

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Speaker 1: is very little concrete evidence, which has led a lot

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Speaker 1: of people to, you know, consider one option or the

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Speaker 1: other and to assume that something happened one way or

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Speaker 1: the other. And with Mary Jane, like her early life,

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Speaker 1: we don't know. We don't know her day of birth,

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Speaker 1: we don't know where she lived, we don't know how

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Speaker 1: she was brought up, we don't know what type of

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Speaker 1: family she had. Now, the story she tells, She tells

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Speaker 1: different people, different tales as far as we know, because

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Speaker 1: again we're getting it second, third hand, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of this information is coming through, you know, interviews for

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Speaker 1: paper or in the inquest after her death. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's things like that. So she may have been born

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Speaker 1: in Ireland and then moved to Wales. She may have

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Speaker 1: been from Wales her whole life. Like, we're not sure.

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Speaker 1: There was a Mary Jane Kelly who was baptized in

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Speaker 1: Limerick and whose family did emigrate. Now this could have

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Speaker 1: been another Mary Jane Kelly. This could very well be

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Speaker 1: a case of mistaken identity, or not mistaken identity, stolen identity,

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Speaker 1: identity theft. It could very well be. There's no guarantee

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Speaker 1: one way or the other. But there are literally no

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Speaker 1: Welsh census records pertaining to this, and if Mary Jane

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Speaker 1: was who she said she was, she would show up

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Speaker 1: in at least one census record. So she tells people

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Speaker 1: that she was married to a coal miner called Davies

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Speaker 1: or Davis, which fairly common decent Welsh name. There's no

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Speaker 1: record of them. There's no record of their marriage, so

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Speaker 1: if she was in a relationship with him, it was

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Speaker 1: more like a common law thing as opposed to an

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Speaker 1: actual marriage. But again the census records they don't show anything.

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Speaker 1: We have nothing, And as a historian, may I tell

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Speaker 1: you this is incredibly frustrating because she was a person

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Speaker 1: and her story deserves to be told. We don't really

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Speaker 1: know it. Maybe she didn't want anybody to know it.

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Speaker 1: And then, in which case, none of her bloody business

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Speaker 1: is it now whether she was with Davies or wasn't

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Speaker 1: with Davies, whether they split up, or he died or

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Speaker 1: whatever happened, because apparently it was like she was like sixteen,

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Speaker 1: so she says when she married him, and then after

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Speaker 1: this she ends up moving to London. Now, although her

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Speaker 1: information is very much second third hand, we can use

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Speaker 1: this a wee bit to get a week grasp of

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Speaker 1: what Mary Jane was like. I mean, we know that

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Speaker 1: probably her name wasn't Mary Jane, and she probably didn't

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Speaker 1: come from Ireland. So when she arrives in London in

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three, there were a few things that we

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Speaker 1: get from her. She's well educated, she can read, she

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Speaker 1: is articulate, and she can draw. Now she's noted as

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Speaker 1: being a you know, a good artist, that she can

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Speaker 1: draw quite well. Now, I mean this could have been

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Speaker 1: a talent that she picked up you know, here and there.

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Speaker 1: But in girls' schools, drawing was something that was that

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Speaker 1: was very much put forward. So she was, you know,

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Speaker 1: from a wealthier area and from a wealthy school. Chances

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Speaker 1: are she would have had art lessons. She would have

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Speaker 1: had that. Because of the way that she talked about

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Speaker 1: the places that she had lived, we can surmise that

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Speaker 1: she did live in Cardiff before she lived in London,

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Speaker 1: and she does tell one of her lovers that that

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Speaker 1: she had a long stay in a hospital in Wales. Now,

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Speaker 1: if she was in a public hospital, a public funded hospital,

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Speaker 1: we would have a record of where she'd been, especially

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Speaker 1: if she was under her own name, if Mary Jane

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Speaker 1: was her name, But this isn't there. So either she

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Speaker 1: was there under an assumed name, or there was the

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Speaker 1: possibility she was put into a asylum I know terms,

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Speaker 1: but that's kind of what happened when wealthier girls ended

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Speaker 1: up in you know, situations out of worldlock. So if

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Speaker 1: she had been pregnant and given birth in one of

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Speaker 1: these institutions, she very well could have been from an

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Speaker 1: upper class family who had that but the shame of that,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, meant that she couldn't go back because

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Speaker 1: of their particular perceptions on purity and womanhood and everything

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Speaker 1: like that. In the era, she would have been shamed,

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Speaker 1: and so going back to her family may not have

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Speaker 1: been an option for her, and so going to the

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Speaker 1: place where there was a lot of people and a

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Speaker 1: lot more opportunities, she ends up in London. Now. One

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Speaker 1: thing people say about her is, apart from the fact

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Speaker 1: that she's meant to be beautiful, she's quite young. So

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Speaker 1: she's younger than everyone else we've dealt with so far.

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Speaker 1: She's meant to be in her twenties, and she's got

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Speaker 1: perhaps auburn hair. There is stories of it being dyed

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Speaker 1: with hennah, but we're not entirely sure about that. But

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Speaker 1: she's pretty, she's young, and she doesn't really have an accent. Now,

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Speaker 1: in order to not have an accent that has to

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Speaker 1: be pushed out of you, you have to be trained

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Speaker 1: not to have an accent. So I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you've ever noticed this, but you get a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who would be like, I don't really have an accent.

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Speaker 1: Like in Scotland for years, people would say I didn't

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Speaker 1: have an accent, but you'll hear it. And a good

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Speaker 1: friend of mine actually commented on my voice the other

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Speaker 1: day and he was like, yeah, your accent just flipped

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a conversation. I'm like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: do that. So sometimes it'll become more Scottish and sometimes

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Speaker 1: it becomes a little more Irish, just depending on location

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Speaker 1: and what I'm talking about. And didn't realize I did

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Speaker 1: it for so long, but I'd do it. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so if she grew up in England and had elocution lessons,

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Speaker 1: there was every possibility that she would you not have

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Speaker 1: an accent. I'm not saying I had elocution lessons, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I was just told to speak properly my

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Speaker 1: grand her family's from the Highlands, and yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: kind of how things end up. But yeah, with Mary Jane,

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Speaker 1: she was how do I put this, well spoken, and

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Speaker 1: no one ever assumed she was any other nationality and

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't even consider it, like it wasn't a possibility

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Speaker 1: to them until she told them, Like she would tell

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Speaker 1: people she was Irish, she was Welsh, but she didn't

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Speaker 1: have an accent, like she didn't have anything like any

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Speaker 1: Lults or anything that related to that. You'll see a

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Speaker 1: lot of like movies and stuff that are in doc documentaries.

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Speaker 1: Is when they, you know, do portray her, they always

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Speaker 1: give her this kind of fake Irish accent and it's

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Speaker 1: always weird. But yet elocution is always one option. But

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Speaker 1: there's always the possibility that because accents, especially in the UK,

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Speaker 1: they're incredibly regional, so she could have just hidden it,

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Speaker 1: disguised it. But again, she would need to be I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying she would need to be of a certain

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Speaker 1: class to do that, but in order to pronounce things

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Speaker 1: a certain way and not fall into certain colloquial habits,

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Speaker 1: she would have to know how to do that. So

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Speaker 1: there's always the possibility that she was from a wealthier

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Speaker 1: family from a certain area and you know, either couldn't

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Speaker 1: go back or didn't want information to go back to them.

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Speaker 1: But again this is all guesswork because we don't know.

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Speaker 1: What we do know is that she arrived in London

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Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty three, so she somehow gets a job,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a high end sex worker under a

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Speaker 1: madam in London, and these are easy positions to get

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Speaker 1: being being a sex worker in these kind of areas

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Speaker 1: up in like Haymarket and picc a Lilly, pic a lily,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a sauce Piccadilly. She would really need to

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Speaker 1: have something special or some kind of in So her

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Speaker 1: name even fluctuates a little bit here, so sometimes she's

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Speaker 1: known as Mary Jane in sometimes Mary Janette, and it's

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Speaker 1: quite possible. She also spoke French, which you can learn,

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Speaker 1: you know, in certain areas in life. But again, you know,

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Speaker 1: French was a you know, an international language of commerce,

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Speaker 1: of business, of dealings, so it was quite a common

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Speaker 1: language for again wealthier girls to learn. So anyway, in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties in London and these these madams, they

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Speaker 1: would be called procuresses. So it wasn't just come in women,

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Speaker 1: lie on your back, you know, and a insert remove,

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Speaker 1: repeat next person. It was kind of more like an

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Speaker 1: escort service or even the girlfriend experience because a client,

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't just purchase sex. That wasn't the point. You

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Speaker 1: were supposed to buy a women's company from the evening.

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Speaker 1: So the women that were involved in this, the sex

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Speaker 1: workers that were doing this, they had to be of

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Speaker 1: a certain elk. They had to be able to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation they had to be able to dance, which

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Speaker 1: was incredibly important. You know, they had to know the

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Speaker 1: lay of the land, make the appropriate you know comments, jokes, YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the time, certain areas would be

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Speaker 1: booked out, like gentlemen would book, like dance halls, like

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Speaker 1: clubs would book you know, these kind of areas and

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Speaker 1: would have these kind of events so that they could

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Speaker 1: spend an evening with a lady adorn her with you know,

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Speaker 1: gifts and clothing and you know, things that would make

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Speaker 1: it not seem inappropriate to be together, because if a

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Speaker 1: gentleman were taking a lady out on a night in

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Speaker 1: the town, you know, it would have to have the

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Speaker 1: appearance of respectability. And Mary Kelly herself, she often referred

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Speaker 1: to this as her career, like she saw sex work

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Speaker 1: as a career. Whether she'd kind of leaned into its

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Speaker 1: lot in life or whatever, that's what she did. She

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Speaker 1: was generally comfortable at points, so she would have jewels

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Speaker 1: and clothing and she would be safe, you know, to

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Speaker 1: a certain point. And again it was relatively comfortable is

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Speaker 1: as far as the situation goes. And although she wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a Corrasan who would have you know, very select,

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Speaker 1: like one or two clients. She probably had a few

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Speaker 1: repeat customers in that build a level of trust and

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Speaker 1: a level of intimacy. Now she ends up leaving her

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Speaker 1: madam's house, the brothel, whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 1: and she ends up leaving. Now she does say that

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Speaker 1: she goes to Paris, didn't like it, and comes back.

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Speaker 1: We don't know if this is correct. We don't know

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Speaker 1: if she actually went to France. We don't know what

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Speaker 1: happened there or why she left. There's you know, theories

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Speaker 1: that she was trafficked. There's theories that she went there

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Speaker 1: with a gentleman who promised her the world, and Mary

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Speaker 1: Jane Kelly's personalityes made that dissolve. So there's the concept

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Speaker 1: which did happen, you know, well, to do escort sex workers.

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Speaker 1: They were traffic to France because English ladies were fun.

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Speaker 1: It was a fad, it was, you know, the trendy thing,

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Speaker 1: and so they would be taken and you know, it

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Speaker 1: would not be as pleasant a scenario as they had

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Speaker 1: had before. I'm not saying the scenario before was pleasant

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Speaker 1: by any means, but this was worse because again, language barriers,

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Speaker 1: undramiliar locations, culture, et cetera. But then there's always the

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Speaker 1: possibility that she went there with a man named was

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00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 1: it Cleig Quig, this dude. Anyway, she goes over and

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Speaker 1: she gambled, She was loud, she had no secrets, and

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Speaker 1: he was more reserved. And so although life in Powers

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Speaker 1: should be kind of fun, especially for her in that era,

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Speaker 1: because of what Paris was then, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: the place to be. I mean, it's still relatively the

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Speaker 1: place to be, but it was just a very exciting,

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Speaker 1: you know, place at that time. But for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: goes to France, comes back from France, and she doesn't

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Speaker 1: go back to her original madam. We don't know why

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Speaker 1: where Bridges burned was, did an incident occur? We don't

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Speaker 1: know exactly why she left. Was the madam The very

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Speaker 1: reason she was trafficked was the madam mad that she

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Speaker 1: had left to you know, start her life with this

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Speaker 1: man and thus leaving her you know, her clients without

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00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: one of their favorite pets. Whom's to say, Yes, I

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Speaker 1: know what I just said, but I am thinking of

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Speaker 1: other perspectives. And even though it makes my skin crawl, So,

286
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and Mary Jane Kelly is now in Ratcliffe.

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Speaker 1: So the Ratcliffe Highway, it's in London, it's near the harbor.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty busy, pretty crowded. There's always sailors and drunks,

289
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 1: and you know, it's easy to hide there, and also

290
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Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to earn there. At the very least,

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00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 1: she'd always have a full belly and you know, a

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Speaker 1: good drink. Now it's at this point that we know

293
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Speaker 1: Mary Kelly was drinking, whether she was drinking before and

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Speaker 1: that had caused issues with her previous you know, brothel

295
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 1: again just a possibility. But there she is, she's in

296
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Speaker 1: the Ratcliff Highway and she ends up renting this little

297
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 1: brick cottage from this Dutch couple in like eighteen eighty five,

298
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Speaker 1: I say cottage. She basically rented a room in this

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Speaker 1: brick house right and the owners, the original owner, her

300
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: husband used to rent out to ladies of the night,

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Speaker 1: you know, to use for their clientele. And when he died,

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00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, the widow was like, eh, why why ruin

303
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: a good thing? May as well, you know, keep earning

304
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 1: her money. Now. Elizabeth, who she rented from, she wasn't

305
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 1: like a madam or sorry, a procuress. She wasn't any

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Speaker 1: of these things. Right, She was just a woman who

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Speaker 1: rented some rooms, and it was whoever rented those rooms,

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00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 1: it was up to them to find their own client

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Speaker 1: tell and so that's what Mary Jane did. It was

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Speaker 1: easier for her. She could, you know, be more careful

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Speaker 1: about who she was dealing with, and she was safe.

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Speaker 1: Now for the most part. You know, generally Mary Jane

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00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: Kelly was quiet and kind, went sober, but when she

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Speaker 1: had a drink in her when she had alcohol, she

315
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: was loud, raucous again, she held no secrets, She gambled,

316
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Speaker 1: she was she was not great to be around, and

317
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 1: she caused so much trouble that she, you know, she

318
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 1: basically gets evicted from this room and after this she

319
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: moves into the boarding house next door. Now it's not

320
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 1: that Mary Jane was, you know, drinking to excess all

321
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Speaker 1: the time. It's just that when she did drink, she

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Speaker 1: is generally what I like to refer to as a

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Speaker 1: grumpy goose. I don't know if you've ever met a

324
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Speaker 1: goose in real life, but they are terrifying and they

325
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: will come at you. They will come at you when threatened,

326
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Speaker 1: even when not threatened. Sometimes they just like to chase you.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, once she's got a drink in her she's

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Speaker 1: an angry goose. She's honking. So a year later, she

329
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Speaker 1: meets Joseph Fleming. He is this twenty seven year old

330
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Speaker 1: laborer and he is apparently heads over heels over Mary Jane,

331
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Speaker 1: and you know, she seemed to care for him. They

332
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: actually stay in contact for the rest of her life,

333
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: but you know, the relationship doesn't last too long. She

334
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: moves in with him, you know, not that long after

335
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: meeting him, So I mean it's some kind of stability,

336
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: which makes sense because you know, she's dealt with enough

337
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 1: and living with a man, as we know, as we've

338
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: said before in many of these episodes, is the most

339
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 1: secure option. So she even talks about how fond she

340
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: is of him, and she continues this for a long time.

341
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Speaker 1: And so while she's living with him, she tries to quit,

342
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 1: you know, sex work. She doesn't you know, look for

343
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: John's or clients. But for whatever reason, she's forced to,

344
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: you go back into selling sex like she has to

345
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: do it partently, it's the only way of her earning.

346
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: And the following year she meets Joseph Barnett, now Joseph

347
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: Barnett is one of our main sources of information about

348
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: Mary Jane. Now, what she tells him and what she

349
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: tells other people, it's information that we have to take

350
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: with a pinch of salt. So she kind of settles

351
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: down with Joseph number two and there together and they

352
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: move here and there over the course of a few months.

353
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Speaker 1: But then they end up getting the little one room

354
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Speaker 1: building in Miller's Court, and that's like the spring of

355
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Speaker 1: eighty eight, so we know from eighty seven to eighty eight,

356
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: and they move in. But what's really strange about this

357
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 1: is that the tenancy is in Mary Jane Kelly's name,

358
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 1: not Joseph's, which, to be honest, is really fucking weird

359
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: for the era because you know, you would expect it

360
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: to be in the man's name, but it was in

361
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: Mary Jane's. We don't know why, We probably will never

362
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: know why, but we do know that fact. So in

363
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 1: Miller's Court, Mary Jane would often talk to her neighbor.

364
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: There was a young girl, and that's where we get

365
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: another huge chunk of you know, the information about her

366
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: is what she tells us girl, and we hear about

367
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: other girls coming up to her who are thinking about

368
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: going into sex work, and she basically steers them away.

369
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: She warns them against it, not because it's you know,

370
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: degrading or shameful or anything like that. It's because it's exhausting.

371
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: Like she said herself, she was tired of it. And again,

372
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly is still very very young at this point.

373
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Speaker 1: So life with Joseph Barnett isn't all, you know, peaches

374
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Speaker 1: and cream, because he loses his job, so he doesn't

375
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: have an income and he can't get what he needs

376
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: to get, and so they are forced to rely on

377
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: her going back to her career and engaging in sex work.

378
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: Now can you imagine this is a woman who's already

379
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: said she's tired of it, she doesn't want to do

380
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: it anymore, she doesn't want to have to sell her body,

381
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 1: and circumstances have forced this upon her again because think

382
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: about it, if she went from a situation where she

383
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: was safe and secure and she was living with this

384
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: man to just having to put herself in danger again,

385
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: because she would be very well aware of the risk,

386
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: because she is a woman in eighteen eighties London who

387
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: was also incredibly aware of the rappers layings, the Whitechapel murders,

388
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: like she would have people tell her about them, and

389
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: she was having to put herself in danger. Now, Barnett

390
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: also wasn't happy because Mary Jane was letting women's state

391
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 1: in Miller's court. So instead of having them be out

392
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: of the streets at night, she was letting people stay. Now,

393
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: some people say that they were, but yeah, we don't

394
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: have any definitive information on that. All we know is

395
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: that she let women sleep in her house instead of

396
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: having to be on this stas because she was afraid

397
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: for them. So she was putting all this into play.

398
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: And then Barnett, he just can't be dealing with it.

399
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: There's a fight. They were always having fights, especially when

400
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: they drank and a window gets smashed. And the thing

401
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: with this window is it gets like stuffed with like

402
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: a rag or a cloth. It's just to keep the

403
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 1: chill out because at this point it's not exactly the

404
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: warmest time of year. But by offering her home to

405
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: these women, she could very well have saved lives, not

406
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 1: just from you know, the Whitechapel killer, but from the

407
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: other dangers out on the streets. Yeah, Joseph wasn't super

408
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: happy about this. But he couldn't really say anything because

409
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: it was Mary jen who had the roof over his head.

410
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: She was paying for everything. It was in her name.

411
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: But eventually it's too much for him and he leaves.

412
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: But Joseph does pop back on November eighth, eighteen eighty eight,

413
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: and she's chatting to her Palissay. She'd been to the pub,

414
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: but she wasn't drunk, she wasn't like heavily and talk scated.

415
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: She seemed very normal. And he says he came to

416
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 1: tell her that he had nothing to offer her. He had,

417
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, no finances, no job, no nothing. And they

418
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: talk for an hour and he leaves. And the next

419
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: time anyone sees Mary Jane, it's her neighbor, Mary Anne,

420
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: and she sees her about quarter to midnight, eleven forty five,

421
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: and she's going into her little apartment with a man

422
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: and she tells Mary Anne she's going to be singing,

423
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 1: and she does sing and here singing for a bit.

424
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: Now about one o'clock in the morning, one of the

425
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: neighbors is complaining about the fact that she's still singing,

426
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: and she's she's at it for like an hour and

427
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: a bit, and then about two am, the dude is gone, rins, lather, repeat,

428
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: off he goes, and Mary Jane is out two o'clock

429
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: in the morning. She's seen by a few people and

430
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: she then is maybe seen being spoken to by another man.

431
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: At some point that evening, Mary Jane Kelly makes her

432
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: way home. She goes into mother's court, She folds her

433
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: clothes neatly, and she goes to bed fully in the

434
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: belief that she's safe and sound because she's only worried

435
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: about the Whitechapel killer and he killed people on the streets,

436
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: so she had every reason to think she was going

437
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 1: to wake up the next morning, but she didn't. And

438
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: on November ninth, about eleven o'clock in the morning, the

439
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: landlord sends one of his goons round to get the

440
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: late rent from Mary Jane. But when Thomas gets there

441
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: and knocks on the door and gets no response, he

442
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: decides to take a look in the window, and that's

443
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: when he sees the horrific mulation of Mary Jane. When

444
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 1: it came time to bury Mary Jane Kelly, because it

445
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: was assumed she was irish, there was a Catholic ceremony,

446
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: and like Catherine Arrow's before her, even though she had

447
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: no family to speak of or that we know of,

448
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: like people lined the street. It was a massive, massive deal.

449
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: And we talk about the less dead a lot. But

450
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly was a very a very interesting figure

451
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,479
Speaker 1: for this because she was kind of venerated. You know,

452
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: people had this strange obsession with her, possibly because of

453
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: how little we know about her, because so much of

454
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: her is a mystery, and that's where all these conspiracy

455
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: theories come from. But because she was young and supposedly beautiful,

456
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: and because she had been mutilated in such a horrific manner,

457
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: and because she was killed indoors, she becomes this weird

458
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: sim this icon of this fallen woman, and it could

459
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: have instigated the needs for change and a lot. And

460
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly is laid to rest under a name

461
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: she preferred to use, Marie Janette. So I'm going to

462
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: go into a little bit more detail now with one

463
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: of my favorite history talk people, my special guest for

464
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: this week's episode. And now we have the host of

465
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: the God's Favorites podcast and one of my first history

466
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: talk friends, actually, Melissa Hi.

467
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here because we're going to talk

468
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: some true crime. So I didn't get my true crime

469
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 3: fixed in now. So we started off on TikTok as

470
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: friends just because I was like, oh, she's got a

471
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: history podcast and I have one, and we bonded over

472
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: our love of yeah, a lot of things, but specifically

473
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper, and then we also have a Titanic thing.

474
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: It's at this point it's my second profession is titan

475
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: I do nothing but Titanic content for the entire month

476
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: of April, so that's where my brain is. So it's

477
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: gonna be nice to have a little bit of a

478
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper interlude here.

479
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: We have very particular opinions about Mary Kelly.

480
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: Indeed, so we both know that Mary Jane Kelly is

481
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: considered to be one of them, what they call the

482
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: canonical five. I love the term Ripperologists. It's it's kind

483
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: of funny to me ripproology. They consider those five victims,

484
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 3: although I would say they're more than likely more than five.

485
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: But you and I both think that Mary Jane Kelly

486
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 3: is likely not part of that victimology, which is weird

487
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: I think for some people because they always consider her

488
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 3: like the final death.

489
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 1: I feel like either the Repper was somehow stopped before

490
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly or just disappeared because it's not the

491
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: same Kellor. It's not I don't care who. It doesn't

492
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: add up, none of it makes sense. Yeah, I think

493
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: like when we.

494
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: Both were talking about this previously, we both have this.

495
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: It's clearly instant because you know, you can't prove anything

496
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 3: with the River crimes, but it doesn't feel like the

497
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: same guy. It just doesn't. Because when you look at

498
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: the crime scene photos, and please, if you're going to

499
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: google that, don't do it at work and just be

500
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 3: prepared because Mary Jane Kelly's photos are terrifying. That whole

501
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: crime scene is terrified. But when you really think about

502
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: the condition of the bodies of the other victims that

503
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: granted that was also escalating, but Mary Jane Kelly's death

504
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: was so brutal and so violent that it just doesn't

505
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: match with what I think the ripper was after which

506
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: there's also like the process killer who enjoys the process,

507
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: but this is just a person. He was trying to,

508
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: you know, cut open and get organs out, and that

509
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: was more of the emo with the other victims, whereas

510
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: Mary Jane was just annihilated.

511
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: And there's so much rage when you look at the others,

512
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: they're so clean, they are displayed like they're out in

513
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: the open. Every single one you know, was out there.

514
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: They wanted to be seen. And this is head and

515
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: away and a house.

516
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's what always got me too, because he

517
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: was so clearly proud of what he was doing, even

518
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: when he got interrupted. And that's what we think happened

519
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: with the double event, is that potentially the first killing

520
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: was interrupted or he ran after you know, the fourth victim,

521
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: and he like an art project to him more so

522
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: than he I don't think he got thrills out of

523
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: the actual killing. It was the results. Mary Jane Kelly

524
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: was annihilated and mutilated, and her face was just gone

525
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: like it was the most violent crime ever. The arguments

526
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: I've heard for her being canonical five is that, well,

527
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: he just had more time. But the thing is they

528
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: were all public death, not private. This was hidden away.

529
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 3: And then Mary, we don't know that much about Mary's

530
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 3: early life or things about her. Doesn't make any sense

531
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: that this is the same person. I just don't. I've

532
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 3: never thought that.

533
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: And what I found really I'm skipping forward a little bit.

534
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: But there's a murder in New York of Carrie Brown,

535
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: and it happens in a hotel, and it's very similar

536
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly in a room,

537
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: very violent, very aggressive. It is of a sex worker.

538
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very particular type of mo whereas

539
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: every single one of these ripper slayings, anyone that's official

540
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: air quotes, there's just a careful, like particularness about it.

541
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: There's something just very clean everything about it is putting

542
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: it on display. When they did it, they did it

543
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: at night. They did it at a time where there

544
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: wasn't really many people about, you know, walking the streets

545
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: of Spittlefields or White Chapel, not at that time in

546
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: the morning when they're when these events would have happened,

547
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: which I mean half one and three o'clock in the morning,

548
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: just roughly the sort of time frame when you look

549
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: at it, nobody's around. You're lucky if the dock workers

550
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: are even about. It's not as if he was gonna

551
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: get disturbed. It's not as if he was looking for

552
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: somewhere to go away and do it. He always just

553
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: kind of found the women in these It always seems

554
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 1: to be in nooks and crannies, and then very much

555
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: puts them on display. Look at what I did, See

556
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 1: what I have done. He would put their personal effects

557
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: beside the body. He would lift the skirt up so

558
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 1: everyone could see what a good job he'd done. Like he's,

559
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: like you said, he's proud of this. Why would he

560
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 1: then go and hide away and close the door.

561
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: And those other killings were silent, like nobody really heard

562
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: anything because I'm thinking, you know, possible strangulation, something along

563
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: those lines. But with Mary Kelly, we have this like

564
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: interesting timeline where she's seen walking off with somebody and

565
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 3: we know that her apartment there a coat hanging over

566
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: a broken window, probably providing an entry way, and people

567
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 3: heard her screaming, but they ignored it because they thought,

568
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: you know, it's why chaplton in the mornings. They just didn't,

569
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 3: you know, quiet ignoring it whatever that is not somebody

570
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 3: behaving quietly. Like bludgeoning a woman to death where she's

571
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 3: screaming is not the same as strangling somebody and pulling

572
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 3: out their reproductive organs. It's just not the same thing.

573
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: So I'm with you on the IMO just does not

574
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 3: match those other four killings. And I've always been bothered

575
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: by this, and I don't.

576
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: Know why it's the rage, it's it's the fact that

577
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: there's clearly anger behind it. And that's what always came

578
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: to bullered me about this specifically, is there's definitely it

579
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: feels more personal generally when there's that amount of violent

580
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: rage with something like this, it is a very personal

581
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: personal attack to stab that many tames, to bludgeon that

582
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: many tames like, and the minor happened, you knew that person,

583
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: you wanted to heart them specifically to me, that that's

584
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: what it feels like.

585
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 3: It kind of feels like that to me too. And

586
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: we do know that like Mary Kelly had had a

587
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 3: person she was involved with I won't say like a boyfriend, husband,

588
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 3: but they lived together, they had relationships, and she had

589
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 3: been seen with him the night before and they were

590
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: always fighting and gotten kicked out for a flat that

591
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 3: they were sharing together for like domestic violence and drinking.

592
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: So he sees her the night before she dies, and

593
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 3: I'm always like, well, that feels kind of shady, but

594
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: you know, and then also just the fact that she

595
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: was also seen with a man who was finally dressed.

596
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: There are so many contradictory reports about what Mary Jane

597
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 3: Kelly was doing at night, and it just doesn't make

598
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 3: any sense. And I know that people think that this

599
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 3: is just an escalation of behavior, but it's not escalation.

600
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 3: If the mode of killing completely changes, it's just different.

601
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a step up, it's a complete shark

602
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: jump escalating. You you know, it's the same but more

603
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: it's like you see that with.

604
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 3: The rest of the killings.

605
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: It starts off with you know, sliced open bets are

606
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: pulled out, and then it's sliced open, stubbed. More parts

607
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: are pulled out, more personal effects are on display. Like

608
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: it gets bigger and more grundiouse like every single time,

609
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: but there's again, it's display, it's his art. Here's the

610
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: extra I've done, learning and getting a little bit more

611
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: confident every single time. Again, it's meticulous. So when it

612
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: comes to Mary Jane Kelly, it just feels like such

613
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: a it just feels off, which is very technicals.

614
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 3: So say, there's no the forensic evidence from this case

615
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 3: has you know, very much long been destroyed and it's

616
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 3: impossible to track it down unless there's a confessional letter

617
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 3: that comes out at some point. But I think about

618
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 3: like the witnesses that were interviewed about her, how they

619
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: talked about she was with the man and then one guy.

620
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: It was completely pitch black. But this man they were

621
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: talking to gives this. He calls him Jewish in appearance,

622
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 3: which we'd although the anti Semitism was a big problem

623
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: in White Champel at this time, so that makes us.

624
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 3: But he also describes very very strange, very particular things

625
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: that it would have been, including like the like what

626
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 3: was it the color of his eyes or colored with eyelashes,

627
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 3: and it was dark, it was pitch black.

628
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: That is a small gay London like backstreet. It's a

629
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: dodgy old work code and you're not going to see

630
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: those details.

631
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 3: So that always roused my like, uh huh, okay, where

632
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: were you at when this happened, because he's one of

633
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: the last people who saw her alive, and I'm like,

634
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: anybody look at this. I think his name was Hutchinson.

635
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: He was like giving this very detailed description with you know,

636
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 3: these very small gas lights, how are you going to

637
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: see from about forty five feet away? Not to mention

638
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 3: he was like waiting outside of a place for her

639
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: for forty five minutes, which is also creepy and he's

640
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: describing down to the tea with this person was worried one.

641
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: Why were you out there waiting on her too? It's

642
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: it's too specific, you know, overkill on that one.

643
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: There's just all of these extra details that nobody asked for.

644
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: It's like you know when someone lies and they just

645
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: I know it's in your a divergent person, I behob

646
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: of giving too many details, but that's a that much

647
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: even for someone like me on the color of his eyelashes.

648
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: And leaning into because we all know the graffiti whose

649
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: body was that near? One of the victims said, the

650
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 3: Jewish are people the men who will not be blamed

651
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: for nothing. And it's not clear if it was you know,

652
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: just already there. It's misspelled as.

653
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: Well, which is like somehow worse, Like the spelling is wrong.

654
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I think it's supposed to be Jews, but

655
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: it's jay. I think it's j Yes Jesus. That's oh

656
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: that that graffiti gets so much conspiracy theory talk going,

657
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 3: like the masonry and all that chest But it's like

658
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 3: I'm thinking they're they're banking on the anti Semitism to

659
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 3: throw people off their trail, is what it feels like

660
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 3: to me, that is just that's just plain begotry. Yeah,

661
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 3: it is plain and simple. But like the fact that

662
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: that always alarmed me because he's he sees her. She

663
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 3: asked him for money, and he's like, nah, go on,

664
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 3: and he weighs her off, but he waits outside for

665
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 3: forty five minutes for her.

666
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: Why why why are you waiting in the morning? I

667
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 1: think six weeks or twelve weeks, she's like so many

668
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: weeks behind on her rent, yes, for the house, for

669
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: the room that she's renting, which is in her name,

670
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: not her Like, oh, no, partner is James Barnett.

671
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: Barnett is handling her.

672
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: James Barnett.

673
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 3: Yes, Barnett. Sorry, look at that Barnett.

674
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: Yea.

675
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 3: He had been helping her out when he could, and

676
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: he had seen her the night before. So that's the

677
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 3: other thing I'm like, So there's there's two people who

678
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: have seen this woman in the last twenty four to

679
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 3: forty eight hours of her life. And imagine knowing about

680
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 3: where she lived and how the lock was broken and

681
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: how she had to, you know, have a little bit

682
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: of a glass that she covered up with a coat

683
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: like a curtain, and there's like like somehow they just

684
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 3: get in there and go crazy and it's and it's loud,

685
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 3: and people hear it, but they're not thinking anything of it,

686
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 3: because you know, people are drunk in the middle of

687
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 3: the night and know for being like and she's.

688
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: Been thrown out of places for having domestic arguments, you

689
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: know exactly. There is that little bit of oh, it's

690
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,479
Speaker 1: just them down the road. It's just them having another fight,

691
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: it's another lover's quarrel. It's like, oh, she's being dramatic.

692
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: And especially there was like gangs and stuff going about

693
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: at the same time, so some people would just not

694
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: want to get involved in that.

695
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think you mean, you're hearing people scream

696
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: because there's a lot of crime and you're used to it.

697
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 3: I don't think they're like if it's only like a

698
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 3: scream and you hear a thud and you're like, ah, okay,

699
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 3: whatever and go back to sleep, they're not thinking they're

700
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 3: not going to that doesn't like I think of the

701
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 3: roommate in this reason Idaho killing who didn't think anything

702
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 3: was amiss when she heard a thud. It's like, oh,

703
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 3: it's a party house. Yeah, you're now here all the time.

704
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 3: It's kind of the same thing, just like they're they're

705
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: hearing screams and everything constantly around the clock, and there

706
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been a reason to automatically assume that anything

707
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 3: was a miss in that regard. I know that's a

708
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: lot of people are like, why why did nobody come help?

709
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: Because that was just the East end.

710
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just background noise. That's the white noise they

711
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 1: went to. Somebody's being punched and somebody's screaming.

712
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: That is whitechapel asmr.

713
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: Din in Mother's court. Like that's just how things wear.

714
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: I mean, when you think of who's all staying in

715
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: those cottages and you know, everything that's going on out

716
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: with that, it's just noise. And then by whatever, stupid

717
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: a cloak in the morning, you're gonna have the warehouse

718
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: workers and the dog workers bumbling about and going and

719
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: anyway you're gonna hear them going past, like like, you're

720
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: gonna have noise pretty consistently. It's gonna be, you know,

721
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: a surprise for there not to be any kind of

722
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 1: happenings happening.

723
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 3: I mean what you're used to. And I mean I

724
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 3: say that just like you know, like I was talking

725
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: about the roommate is when you're around those noises and

726
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 3: like you're in a college town or you're in a

727
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: bad part of town, you're gonna hear stuff. And it's

728
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 3: just like mind your business or you know, lock your

729
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 3: door and don't pay attention do it. That's just the

730
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 3: way you're taught to keep yourself safe and just I'm

731
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 3: gonna stay in my room. I'm not investigating. So there

732
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 3: was no reason for them to think anything was amiss

733
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 3: until they find her the next morning. Yeah, it's very

734
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 3: graphic discovery.

735
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: If anyone is gonna look up those Crimson photos, don't

736
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: do it before bed either, you.

737
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: Mary Jane had no face when this was over with.

738
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: And I'm pretty sure now that having looked up these photos,

739
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 3: I'm probably on some sort of government watch list.

740
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: At this point, I maintained I have somebody from the

741
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: CIA and someone from like the m I five just

742
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: watching me because some of my Sarach history is for.

743
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: Sure, if most search history ever gets brought up for

744
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 3: any reason, I'm a I'm a goner with some of

745
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 3: the stuff I've looked up from history. But I remember

746
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 3: the first time I saw this, and I was in

747
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: my twenties. I was nauseous. I was just about to

748
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 3: throw up because I have never seen anything and they're

749
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 3: not even this is bad and black and white. This

750
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: is bad black and white, which tells you that's bad

751
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 3: when you can see how bad it is in a

752
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 3: black and white photo. I mean, blood soaked room. This

753
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 3: was it feels personal, and there's.

754
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: Just bets of her are just hanging off, like the

755
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: way that her I think, isn't it one of one

756
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: of her joints is basically like it's just held it

757
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: hot byd like a sinew or attendon or something.

758
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: It's very and you look very aggressive, yeah, very aggressive.

759
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 3: And you can see her eye sockets with the skull.

760
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 3: You're seeing her skull because her face is gone. It's

761
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 3: one of the most graphic things I've ever seen. But

762
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 3: to me, comparing that to anybody else in this you know,

763
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: Canonical five, the group, nothing like that. It's not he

764
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 3: wasn't Jack the smasher. He was Jack the Ripper. Yeah,

765
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 3: And that always bothers me. And it's just because the

766
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 3: other ones. He's not like destroying the face necessarily, He's

767
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 3: not doing anything except you know, disemboweling.

768
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: The throat gets sliced.

769
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, they like they throw so it's quiet and then

770
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: he kills them quickly.

771
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: It's not as practical.

772
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a practical you know process of let's let

773
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 3: me kill you as quickly as possible so I can

774
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 3: do what I want to do, which is take out

775
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 3: your uterus or whatever. Versus Mary Jane, who is slashed,

776
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 3: She's she just pummeled, makes sense.

777
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: There's nothing smart about it, like, and that's just like

778
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,919
Speaker 1: everything about it is so precise with all the other

779
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: all the other victims, and this is just so much

780
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: going on, which it's a juxtapossession to the rest of

781
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: the killings.

782
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: And you think about when they they found Barnet, Joseph Barnett,

783
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: her partner. He had to identify her body, but he

784
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 3: could only do it by the eyes and the year.

785
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: That's all he could do is say, yeah, that's her.

786
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: The color of her dyed hair Hannah or something.

787
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: So like red hair. I think I think it's like she.

788
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: I think there was something about her putting up there

789
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 1: was like a red hue to it so she could

790
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: like a whoosh, so just to could make her seem more.

791
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had to, like that was the only

792
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: thing he was able to identify her ass, because you can't.

793
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 3: The mutilation there was the most and most people are

794
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: trying to say that's because he had the time. He

795
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 3: had time. He's in a room where nobody is going

796
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 3: to walk in.

797
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: And why wouldn't mutilation be more careful? Yeah, like, if

798
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: he had the tame, why would he not a very

799
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: carefully dissected harm entire body and a very careful fashion.

800
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: Why didn't he take his tame if he had the tame?

801
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: Why this is clearly rushed because there's no way you

802
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: stab somebody slowly like that, not with the monitor in

803
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: which her face her face is gone.

804
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 3: It's just gone.

805
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: There's no joy, it's just sort of hanging.

806
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 3: It's it's it's one of the worst things I have

807
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 3: ever seen. Now, of course he is doing like all

808
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 3: the things to the you know, or like stabbing and

809
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: the you know, heading her intestines, but it's not the

810
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: surgical precision we were getting accustomed to in these old killings.

811
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 3: And if you had the time and that is your

812
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 3: mo why isn't he just performing a surgery? Why isn't

813
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 3: he just doing it with that time he has instead

814
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: of unless she did something to make him angry or something.

815
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 3: But it's just very, very unlike what we saw. So

816
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 3: I have always had this little gut instinct, which I

817
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 3: guess that's a terrible phrasing right now, gut instinct, But

818
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 3: it's instinct it was somebody else that it.

819
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: Was not, and it's personal. It's personal. Every single other

820
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: one of the killings, they were just convenient more than

821
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: anything else, and this just feels like a very very

822
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: personal killing. I always think whoever came and came when

823
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: she was asleep, because her clothes are neatly folded like

824
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: on her we thing, or.

825
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 3: A medical examiner or somebody who was like, this is

826
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 3: not performed by somebody who had training.

827
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not This is not a by somebody

828
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:58,919
Speaker 1: who knows what they're doing.

829
00:48:59,400 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 3: Right.

830
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: Here's like a butcher would have done a better job exactly.

831
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 3: And he's like, yeah, it's not the same as the

832
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: other cases where it was very surgical and anatomical. This

833
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 3: was just hate. This was pure hate, And I don't

834
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 3: know how somebody would escalate that far out of their

835
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 3: normal mo of killing somebody.

836
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: Again, to me, it's very similar to the murder of

837
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: Carrie Brown. If you look it up it's just she's

838
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: in this hotel and she's just completely I mean it's

839
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: not as aggressive as Mary Jane's was, but I still

840
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: have I always have the feeling that Mary Jane. This

841
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: is just my personal opinion that someone came in most

842
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: she was sleeping and they were getting ready to like

843
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: stop her anyway, but she wakes up, like that's my

844
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: kind of theory, and there's a little bit of a

845
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: and this is what causes that little bit of a rage.

846
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: I see a little bit of a rage, that massive rage.

847
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 1: She wakes up and this person's like, hell no, stop

848
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: stop stop, stopped up, like no, I mean, these are

849
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: hardy Victorian women, like at least someone who is known

850
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: for and if she had defensive winds, you wouldn't know.

851
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: By the time she was just smushed like she's practically

852
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: liquefied in.

853
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 3: Places, you know. So it never made sense to me,

854
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: I know, and every time I never one. I will

855
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 3: never think Jack the Ripper was a woman. I know,

856
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 3: that's the theory. I will never the strength to battle,

857
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: but these because these women could have fought back against

858
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 3: a woman pretty easily. They're all very, like you said,

859
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 3: hardy women. And she had held her own in fights

860
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 3: with Barnett before she had made many and many a quarrel.

861
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 3: I'm with you. I think she was surprised. I think

862
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 3: you know, it was she woke up maybe or.

863
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: Maybe she didn't wake up and the person was just

864
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: full of rage anyway, but it was just such a

865
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: particular It's just there's so much anger behind it. Bothers

866
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: me so much.

867
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 3: Bother me too, And I love that we bonded over this,

868
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 3: because Yeah, there's the most frustrating thing about the Jack

869
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 3: the Ripper case is that there is no way to know.

870
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: Now too much time has passed, it will never be solved.

871
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I think they tried to say it was someone.

872
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: Oh they try and do it every four years, so like,

873
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 1: oh it's Humphrey. Oh it was secret. Oh god, if

874
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: I have to hear another thing about secret to be

875
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: squear to god.

876
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 3: I kind of enjoyed the secret stuff. I don't think no.

877
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: I think it's because I was like, oh, this is interesting,

878
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: and then it was like this is the reason why,

879
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: and I went, oh, this makes sense from like a

880
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: criminological perspective, and I'm like this is great. But then

881
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: it became like this is definitely the thing, and then

882
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: this is because of this scarf, and then the DNA

883
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: is rare, except it wasn't rare.

884
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 3: And it's just not real, and it's also degraded and

885
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 3: Sickret just strikes me as like before he's a true

886
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 3: crime fan, before a true crime podcast existed, and he's

887
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 3: just like getting an outlet with his art. So I

888
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: don't know, And that is the most frustrating thing that

889
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 3: anybody who says they solved it is full of shit

890
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 3: because we will never know who did it.

891
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: Nobody has solved anything. We're never going to solve it,

892
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: And like part of me just feels like like I

893
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: go through this whole period of where I go, I

894
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: don't I don't give a I don't give a fuck.

895
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: I don't I don't care who he is at this point,

896
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: I don't care, Like I just get these stages where

897
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: I'm just like.

898
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 3: That's why when I did the series, I did a

899
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 3: video on each woman, because I'm like, look, we can

900
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 3: talk about the suspects, but the list of suspects is

901
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 3: exponentially long, and you know, it's a billion conspiracy theories

902
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 3: out there on who it was, but the fact is

903
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 3: that whoever it was if it was more than one

904
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 3: person who it was five women just out and killed.

905
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 3: And that's that's the story, not mysterious men with the.

906
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 1: Hate and it's like, why why does this one person

907
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: modern more than the five lives or more he snuffed out.

908
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 3: That's why that book, the book five is the five. Yeah,

909
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 3: because you're you're talking about their lives and who they were.

910
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 3: Mary Kelly had this like fascinating background. I mean, we

911
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 3: don't know everything about these women just because of record

912
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 3: keeping and you know, their personal life, and a lot

913
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 3: of it is anecdotal, so we can't really verify how

914
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 3: much of it is true. But she's one who actually

915
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 3: she was like traveling around Europe. She she when she

916
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: worked as a sex work, she was actually like at

917
00:52:58,280 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 3: one point, I'm very very high.

918
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

919
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: It was very strange because she went from like this

920
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: very high area and then ended up in the spectal fields.

921
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: Alcoholism and the addiction that was there also played a

922
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 3: huge part of it. And that's that whole concept of

923
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 3: the less dead as they call it, which is the

924
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 3: people who are going to not be missed as much.

925
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 3: A's why we see that today now with oh.

926
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see it everywhere I mean that were I

927
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: don't know if you ever listened to the podcast The

928
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: fall Ling.

929
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,399
Speaker 3: I have heard it's good. I haven't listened to it, though.

930
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: It is very good, and it's all to do with

931
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: all of these people that have just basically fallen to

932
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: the cracks in this in this area, and it's just

933
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: one of those things. Always I'm more interested in those stories.

934
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 3: And you see that with the like missing murdered Indigenous

935
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 3: women and two people in the United States and in Canada,

936
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: with the that that's those cases are not getting investigated

937
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: the way they should. So that is a lot of

938
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 3: what you see here with Mary Jane Kelly and these

939
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 3: other Chapman all these women because they they were considered

940
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 3: less dead because of what they did for a living

941
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: or they're sitch. I know, I know there's some questioning

942
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 3: of whether or not they were all sex workers or

943
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 3: if it was just like a casual sex worker thing

944
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 3: treating favors, and it shouldn't matter. It's just that somebody

945
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 3: was going around and praying on women that they thought

946
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 3: and they got away with it. And that's the most

947
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: creating part of the whole thing. And while I I

948
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 3: love listening to theories I think that that is the focus,

949
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 3: is that somebody just hated women, and that should be

950
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: the focus and we should be honoring them. But that

951
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 3: being said, some of the conspiracy theories are insane. Was

952
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 3: like Queen Victoria did it like his grandson. Oh, but

953
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 3: that was.

954
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: The worst one was that people that Queen Victoria actually

955
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: did it hersef. I was like, whattori hard? Really? You

956
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: think somebody wouldn't have noticed horror walking down the street?

957
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 5: Really?

958
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, your majesty. Let me just now. I did

959
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: love the oh the movie Murder by Decree with the

960
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 3: Christopher Plumber where that's the Sherlock Holmes and that's the

961
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 3: theory that they're running with the Mason the Freemasons, very entertaining,

962
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: But that theory is so silly. It's me number one,

963
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 3: she would you know, deny, deny, deny any sort of

964
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 3: you know, relationship between a sex worker and her grandson

965
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 3: if that were the case. And too, it's just the

966
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 3: royals don't get their hands started. We know better. But

967
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 3: also there's like the the HH Holmes theory with him

968
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 3: being one of the most prolific serial killers in America

969
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 3: in history, with his murder Hotel he's a fascinator too.

970
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 3: There's a lot of rumors that's him, but they have

971
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 3: to debunked that time and time again that he was not.

972
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 3: So you keep seeing this come up and like it's

973
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 3: this different as well, like he's a different m O.

974
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 3: When he was not killing for pleasure, he was killing

975
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 3: to sell the skeletons to make money. Terrifying that that

976
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 3: was a thing in American history at all. But I

977
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 3: mean it's just like hmm, let's dig up a grave

978
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 3: or body snatching was a very lucrative business for HH Holmes,

979
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 3: but he totally enjoyed the torment. But I don't think

980
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 3: it's the same thing at all.

981
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: And H Holmes, it's like Chapman as well, like the

982
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: Lambeth poison. It's like, yeah, the poisoner isn't about to

983
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: go gutting people.

984
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 3: He's not a ripper. It's not a reper. I'm glad

985
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 3: we have bonded over that because I'm just like I

986
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 3: thought I was the only one who thought that, And

987
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 3: it's such a part of like marriage and Killy is

988
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 3: such a per ripper lore that some people are like

989
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 3: hesitant to let it go. But I'm like, there, people.

990
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 1: Get so mad about it when you challenge, you know,

991
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: I hate I actually hate the term ripperologists so much

992
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: because because as someone who like when I was much younger,

993
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: when I was like a teenager, I was like I

994
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 1: wanted to be like a ripperologist. I loved. Like, clearly

995
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 1: I have issues because I have an obsession with historical

996
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: true quin something's wrong. Because I was just so into

997
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: like ripperology. I was into everything about it. Was just fascinating. Again,

998
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: A lot of it is because it's unsolved, you know,

999
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: and there's so many theories and there's so many options,

1000
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: and you know, all these other factors come into it.

1001
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: And I was kind of obsessed. I say kind of.

1002
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: I was, in fact obsessed. My father bought me a book,

1003
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: a casebook of Jack the Ripper. It had like photos,

1004
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 1: a kid's book of Jack. No, no, no no. My father

1005
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: bought me, at twelve years old, an adult book with pictures.

1006
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 3: It was an adult book. I thought somebody out there

1007
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 3: was making a children's book the River, and I was like,

1008
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 3: what is did you imagine I would like that? Oh

1009
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 3: my blue wrapper and white chapel. It's like a golden book,

1010
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 3: And I would this isn't my knife. It's too shiny, shiny,

1011
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 3: let me get it all bloody touch. This isn't it's

1012
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 3: too rough. I think we may be onto something. If

1013
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 3: it doesn't exist, we should write it. I mean they have.

1014
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,439
Speaker 1: We have come up with a great children's book. Let

1015
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: me tell you, Penguin Random House.

1016
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 3: They have a donner. They have a donner party, you know,

1017
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 3: full out cannibalism children's book. When my friends showed it

1018
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 3: to me and I was like, that's actually brilliant.

1019
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: Donor party. They have a good day. You know. I

1020
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: think that this is.

1021
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 3: One of those things that all women get into, not

1022
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 3: because of the violence for the women, but because they're

1023
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 3: like they're so obsessed with the story, and like, why

1024
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 3: don't I don't even know exactly why, but I feel

1025
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 3: like we all are like protective of these victims when

1026
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 3: we look back at it now like that, you know,

1027
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 3: with the older we get, the more we realize that

1028
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: that is the focus and not this. Yeah, and we

1029
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 3: have given a moniker. He's got good branding and that's

1030
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 3: about but really other than that, you know, he may

1031
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 3: have still been operating somewhere else. He made in it,

1032
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 3: but we will never know.

1033
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: And we'll never know like because violence against women then

1034
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: and who knows even now, Like it was never seen

1035
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: as a big deal. So when he escalated to the

1036
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: point of the first canonical victim, we have no idea

1037
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: who came before, right, Like the worst thing is about

1038
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: the Rippers layings is that they're not even they weren't

1039
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,479
Speaker 1: even the only ones happening in London at the time.

1040
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: You had the Torso Martyrs, you had the west Ham Vanishings.

1041
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: You know, you had all of these different like killers

1042
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: running at the same time. Like the current place where

1043
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 1: Scotland Yard is now, they found a Torso there, like

1044
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: it's and you can.

1045
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 3: See it on the Jack the river walking towards thank

1046
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 3: you right there and here was a body right there

1047
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: and you know it's yeah, part of me felt like

1048
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 3: I should be ashamed of that, but it was actually

1049
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 3: very interesting. But yeah, we walked right by the new

1050
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 3: Scotland You're or so there, Oh wonderful, thank you? Not related, but.

1051
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, like there was even then, several colors were running

1052
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: at the same time. It's not wasn't you You just

1053
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: had better publicity in the penny.

1054
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 3: Why do you think that Jack is the one that

1055
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 3: everybody's focused on Just the miss can. I could never

1056
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 3: really put a good answer to that myself.

1057
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 1: It's a very strange thing. I think any any sort

1058
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: of unsolved crime people obsess over because every everybody wants

1059
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: an answer, like it's a It's a very human thing

1060
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: to want to resolve something, to have the information to

1061
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: find out who did it. And I think some people

1062
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: are just so determined to be the parents who fickles

1063
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: out as well.

1064
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of men, especially of note, it's always men.

1065
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 6: They think they know, they think they know, and it

1066
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 6: would not hold up in a court. I mean, the

1067
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 6: forensic evidence long gone. A lot of it is, you know,

1068
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 6: no eyewitnesses, there's no DNA on bodies.

1069
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 3: They're not gonna be exhuming any of these victims, and

1070
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 3: I'd say most of them weren't even very well preserved

1071
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 3: in terms of being you know, yeah, the funeral director,

1072
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 3: because you're not gonna see that. You're just not going

1073
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 3: to see that that would have been buried. Their forensic

1074
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,479
Speaker 3: evidence is gone. You cannot prove this, And it's fine

1075
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 3: to theorize, but a lot of times it just gets

1076
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 3: to the point where people are so passionate that they're

1077
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 3: correct that it makes me crazy. I'm like, you're not.

1078
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 3: We don't know, we will just never know. But that's

1079
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 3: not the point.

1080
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you've got the people who refuse to

1081
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: hear anything out with their their belief system at all. Huh.

1082
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: I wonder what that sounds like. But you know, they're

1083
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: just so, they're just so. It's like a horse with

1084
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: a blinkers and they're steering down this road. They're not

1085
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: seeing anthony either side. It doesn't matter what's coming in.

1086
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: There's no peripheral there, and they're just so determined.

1087
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 3: There seems to be a personality type where they're like,

1088
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 3: my theory is right, and they stay so gung ho

1089
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 3: to that theory that that becomes their personality, Like the

1090
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 3: Kaminski people with the shaw and I'm like, oh, you

1091
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 3: mean there was DNA on the shawl of a sex worker?

1092
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 3: Will all be damned?

1093
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: Oh what really?

1094
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 3: Kill rr?

1095
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1096
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: No, it's just I find that reparologists specifically do not

1097
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 1: care about the women.

1098
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 3: No, they don't.

1099
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: They don't care about It's like they don't care about

1100
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: what caused them to be there, or why they were

1101
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 1: in there at the time and what led to their deaths,

1102
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: or you know the fact that they were actual human

1103
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: beings with thoughts and emotions and families and everything else

1104
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: that went with that.

1105
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 3: One of my favorite podcasts I think you know this

1106
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 3: Bummy's last podcast on the Left, and they did a

1107
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 3: fantastic Jack the Ripper series, and I really appreciate it

1108
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 3: because it's one of the first time I've ever heard

1109
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 3: men doing the story where they acknowledged that this was

1110
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 3: the less dead and in action at that principle of

1111
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 3: they were sex workers so people didn't care as much.

1112
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 3: But then they also focused a lot of information coming

1113
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 3: about these women, and I think that's the most important

1114
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: thing to do because at the end of the day,

1115
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter who did it. That guy's a piece

1116
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 3: of garbage. It's that five women lash trash, trash. Jack's trash.

1117
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 3: That is trash.

1118
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: I'm putting out a t shack.

1119
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 3: Oh merch, yes, but him and then those five women

1120
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 3: lost their real lives for no reason except for nasty,

1121
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: misogynistic douchebaggery. That's what I'm douchebaggery. And that's the saddest

1122
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 3: thing out of this whole thing. But yeah, as as

1123
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 3: for Mary Jane Kelly, I don't I have I have

1124
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 3: thoughts on who it is. But I'm like, okay, I'm

1125
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 3: convinced had to be.

1126
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: I'm convinced I had to be the on either the

1127
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: on off partner or that creepy stalker dude. I'm sorry,

1128
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: but it's just I.

1129
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 3: Really think it's Hutchinson. But the boyfriend being around, the

1130
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 3: partner being around also had me. He was around the

1131
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 3: day before.

1132
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: She got killed. But just yeah, just saying, I'm just saying,

1133
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: if you're waiting, usually usually the boyfriend did it. And

1134
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: if it's not, they.

1135
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 3: Who was waiting for her forty five minutes war?

1136
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: Like I said, the ten bells just waiting, just just

1137
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: hanging outside, the ten bells, just waiting.

1138
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 3: I just saw her, she waited outside for it, and

1139
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 3: watched her walk off with somebody, why were you doing that?

1140
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 1: You're doing it's it's cold, it's a cold night. Why

1141
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: would you be standing out there like treasing your balls off?

1142
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: What was that about?

1143
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 3: Watched her go home, he said with why are you

1144
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 3: following her home? What are you doing that? That's the

1145
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: alarm bells for me In that case, I leaned toward Hutchingson.

1146
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 3: But like I say, we'll never know, and it's just

1147
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 3: an absolute abysmal loss of life for no reason except

1148
01:03:54,160 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 3: for men. Men, men, men, men. It's always and no

1149
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 3: one will ever be able to commit me check the

1150
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 3: rippermost woman. Nobody.

1151
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, I mean it doesn't there's no way,

1152
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: and it's always. And you know what the funny thing is,

1153
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 1: every every theory about it, it's just it's all misogyny,

1154
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: even because every concept of a woman doing it is.

1155
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 2: Like it was a medwave, it was someone whose husband

1156
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 2: cheated on her, it's someone who could not have children.

1157
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: It's like all of those are very misogynistic like reasons.

1158
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's generally not a reason that women

1159
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 1: would kill, and women are usually more careful killers. Women.

1160
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 3: Poisonous storia. I would buy Queen Victoria before I would

1161
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 3: buy any of those other reasons. Everybody had stipule list

1162
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 3: back then. That was just the national pastime.

1163
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 1: Everyone had the pox and their brains were starting to

1164
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: rot because of it. Like it's like it's an actual thing.

1165
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: Look it up. Their brains were rotting, just Victorian brains.

1166
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 3: Victorian brains running away. But that's it's it's infuriating to me.

1167
01:04:58,040 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 3: And I felt like, yeah, I'm so glad we bonded

1168
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 3: over there because I felt like I was one of

1169
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 3: the few people in the world like.

1170
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 5: I don't care, I'm I'm with you because I remember

1171
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 5: I posted a video about it and you were just

1172
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 5: like yes in just so many exclamation marks, and I'm like,

1173
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 5: factally someone agrees with me.

1174
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 3: Just like it just felt so wrong, and just Mary

1175
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 3: Kelly gets so she also gets one of them. She's

1176
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 3: one of the more romanticized of the five. But she's

1177
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 3: the star of all the conspiracy theories because she was

1178
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 3: very beautiful, apparently and very just more fitting victims. So

1179
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 3: she gets put into these conspiracy wasn't she She was

1180
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: the youngest, she was Apparently she was a high class

1181
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 3: sex worker, you know, a higher level uppressional and sex

1182
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 3: worker in France from where she where. She changed her

1183
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 3: name to Marie Jeannette, which I was like, okay.

1184
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 1: I mean I get it.

1185
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 3: I liked. Yes, she was very popular, but then she

1186
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 3: had this fall from grace and no, it's like because

1187
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 3: she's because she's the more beautiful of all the victims,

1188
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 3: probably and she's getting these judge by that. You see

1189
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 3: this romanticizing of her, putting her in the center of

1190
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 3: like you know, you've seen the from Hell movies, I'm

1191
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 3: sure and I have.

1192
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: And even the writer of the books, sorry, even Oughnder

1193
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 1: the book said that, you know, he wrote us to

1194
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 1: deal with the trauma of his own mother's more dark, Like.

1195
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 3: That's a lot to unpack for him.

1196
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 1: Sorry. Yeah, we don't have much time to talk about this.

1197
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: This is.

1198
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 3: Have you Have you tried therapy, buddy? But I'm like, oh, dear.

1199
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: Romanticizing, have you considered therapy?

1200
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 3: The answers usually know they haven't, but it's let me

1201
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 3: just let me just drag down the legacy of another

1202
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 3: woman romanticized this beyond compared to to the point where

1203
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 3: she's clearly part of a conspiracy theory, because there's no

1204
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 3: other reason you feel, not like domestic violence or just

1205
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 3: sexual violence and sadism.

1206
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: It's just not as if this happened, you know, for

1207
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: electoral centuries. I mean obviously millennia, but like really, I mean,

1208
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 1: even like even when you got like the Yorkshire Repper

1209
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 1: slayings and things like that which happened, and the Blackout killer,

1210
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: and it's consistent, it's not as if it's stopped. These

1211
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: crimes keep happening.

1212
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 3: It's just tell as old as time, and at the

1213
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 3: end of the day, it's the women that's the story

1214
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 3: they had. They lost their lives for literally no reason

1215
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 3: other than whatever.

1216
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: Pleasure because men wanted to hurt them.

1217
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, they want to hurt them, and they thought because

1218
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 3: of who they are. But I think it's just important

1219
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 3: for history creators when we're talking about it, not just

1220
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 3: and ripperologists. If they're listening, listen to me.

1221
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: If you are listening and you aren't sending me.

1222
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 3: Dead, yeah right, if you're not really mean TikTok comments.

1223
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 3: I mean, that should be the focus. That should always

1224
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 3: be the focus for those five women. And I was

1225
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 3: so grateful when that book came out, the five that

1226
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 3: I was like, thank God, because now that's what we

1227
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 3: should be focusing on.

1228
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always there was a turning point for me.

1229
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: I don't know when it was, and it was because

1230
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: I do follow a load of a load of historical

1231
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: true crime. Specifically I feel easier to digest in a way,

1232
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: I think just because it is so far back and

1233
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: because pastory is kind of my thing. It's very much

1234
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: we should always see crime as victim first, like victim first,

1235
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: perpetrator second, although sometimes that's the same person. The victim

1236
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: and the perpetrator are the same person, which is another

1237
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: whole thing to deal with.

1238
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, switch it around, role reversal.

1239
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 1: Which is, as I like to call it. Women who

1240
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: poisoned their husbands at the turn of the century, they

1241
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: tend to be both victims and perpetrators to be a

1242
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: reason they gave them marsnak.

1243
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's that's the only thing I have ever

1244
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 3: taken away from this. Not that because at the end

1245
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 3: of the day, it does not matter who Jack the

1246
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 3: Ripper was. He is pathetic and we should not. I

1247
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 3: think it's fine to theorize. I think it's fine, but

1248
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 3: that should never, never, never be the focus of this

1249
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 3: entire thing.

1250
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: Focus should be the women.

1251
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 3: And don't look up those pictures at work, not at work,

1252
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:55,680
Speaker 3: not on a shared computer.

1253
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 1: Where you're being surveyed in any way, because.

1254
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 3: Not before med and just not in public transport where

1255
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 3: people can.

1256
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: Don't do it.

1257
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 3: No, nothing like that. Keep that.

1258
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 1: Keep it's just like, don't don't look at any any

1259
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: old time crime photos. Don't look at any of them

1260
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: at all anywhere, no private alone, preferably daylight, just mode.

1261
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 1: We should stop getting stop stop giving them ideas it's probably.

1262
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 3: All right, Okay, that was fun. I think it was fun.

1263
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: That was fun. Something like this again in the future,

1264
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: when I'm slightly more.

1265
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 3: Probably when you do the Yorkshre Ripper, the Yorkshire Ripper

1266
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 3: of the Blackout Killer.

1267
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 5: I'll just start I'll just start finding weird let me,

1268
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 5: I'll be like emailing you these times.

1269
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:56,719
Speaker 3: We're gonna look up. I've been looking up the Carry

1270
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 3: Brown because I wasn't familiar to I mean, I had

1271
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 3: heard about it, but I hadn't seen I just think

1272
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 3: it's more. Oh, it's pretty similar. Yeah, I think I

1273
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 3: think it's.

1274
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: It's closer to the Mary Jane Kelly slaying than any

1275
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: of the Whitechapel.

1276
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 3: She's kind of positioned the same way too, in terms

1277
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 3: of the head being to the side and body even.

1278
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting and it's very interesting to decide.

1279
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,759
Speaker 1: Bar for a second, it's they kept calling the person

1280
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: that was in the room with her French ya, but

1281
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 1: Frenchie was a term for anybody foreign. It wasn't necessarily French.

1282
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: Could have been Italian, could have been German, could have

1283
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: been Belgium, could have been Dutch. It doesn't matter. They

1284
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: were just French.

1285
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:34,640
Speaker 3: Ye, frenchie.

1286
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 1: And then when you think of let's talk about again,

1287
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: but the concept of who who Jack the Ripper was

1288
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the original theories they either revolve around

1289
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 1: misogyny or just general's enophobia and anti semitism, because because

1290
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 1: when you think about Whitechapel was an area for immigrants,

1291
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: really people just kind of ended up there and that's

1292
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: where a lot of it. You know, leather Apron became

1293
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:01,719
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper because of spring Heil Jack by Charles Dickens.

1294
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 1: It's a whole thing penal titles.

1295
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 3: Dammit, I love the story of spring Hill Chick like

1296
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 3: great assess Wing that's too good. But now and you'll

1297
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 3: see that the people who were pushing used like the

1298
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,720
Speaker 3: anti semitism and xenophobia against.

1299
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: People to accuse them of it's just because it's the

1300
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: whole thing of like the whole concept of copy and

1301
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,640
Speaker 1: paste comes from. Like they would literally cut bits at

1302
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,679
Speaker 1: the newspaper, stick it onto the new printer and they

1303
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: would just that's how they would reprint because you know,

1304
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: if you've got they didn't have, you know, reporters in

1305
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: every area. It was generally like someone from the Times

1306
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: would come down, but you know they have their own

1307
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: victory and bias and prejudice, you know, and that's very

1308
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 1: much seen in.

1309
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 3: What was there.

1310
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 1: And a lot of the information we have is like

1311
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 1: from the illustrated police news and that was just like

1312
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 1: let's draw pictures of what we think happened. It's a

1313
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 1: whole it's just a whole mess. Really.

1314
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,240
Speaker 3: It's like my actual mic area of specialties.

1315
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 1: That specially is expertise. Jesus, I can't say words. Today

1316
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 1: is the rise of sensationalism in the use of Prentice

1317
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,599
Speaker 1: propaganda in the late modern period.

1318
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 3: So yellow journalism is just the It's one of my passions,

1319
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 3: just because the fact that I talk about it a

1320
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:20,680
Speaker 3: lot and got to talk about the Titanic, because what

1321
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 3: happened after that was that Hurst had it out for

1322
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 3: Jay Bruce is may they refuting. I don't know what

1323
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 3: caused the feud. I would love to know, but he

1324
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 3: immediately like starts lambasting him and he's like he should

1325
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:38,640
Speaker 3: be charged with murder like in cartoons mad And I'm like, bro,

1326
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:40,839
Speaker 3: that's not that's not journalism.

1327
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: Chill, chill.

1328
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 3: So you see that so much, it's kinda it's.

1329
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 1: Just like printing it and just like what we can Okay,

1330
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: why can you make this up? Yeah? Basically it was

1331
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 1: just consistently like like that kind of situation. And that's

1332
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 1: why I find really fascinating because like and Olso, they

1333
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: would just reporters used to show up on crime scenes

1334
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:03,799
Speaker 1: with the police.

1335
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:06,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, we would just be able to tell everything, so

1336
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 4: you would get all these details you wouldn't get another

1337
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 4: places as well, which is that's why it's so timpered

1338
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 4: and controlled now between especially in the States, with.

1339
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 3: Law enforcement hires media liaisons to deal with the press,

1340
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 3: and then they have these things that they're gonna keep quiet.

1341
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 3: They're not gonna let you get on scene.

1342
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they want to solve the crime. I mean,

1343
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: you'd hope, you hope they want to solve the cray they.

1344
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,719
Speaker 3: Do too, but yeah, it's that the press has thankfully

1345
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 3: come a long way from that. But at the time, Yeah,

1346
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,839
Speaker 3: it was just you could just say what you wanted.

1347
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, back then, you could just you could just print

1348
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 1: whatever you wanted, didn't matter, nobody was gonna call you want.

1349
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 3: It, buy a newspaper, and just destroy your enemies. That's

1350
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 3: that's how that works, and that's how.

1351
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 1: It had at the time. Like when you go back

1352
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 1: to that sort of in the Victorian era, like some

1353
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: newspapers would run like three weeks and then just end.

1354
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 1: Like newspapers would exist for like a fortnight and go

1355
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 1: away again like a month. Sometimes they would just come

1356
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 1: and go because people would just buy newspapers and then

1357
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: try to sell them and then not sell them, or

1358
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, things would just go awry. It was just

1359
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 1: it's funny. It's just funny, like they would just come

1360
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 1: and go. So it some things just wouldn't necessarily have

1361
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 1: to be correct anyway being.

1362
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 3: A journalist now, like and you know, we have this

1363
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 3: whole different set of ethical guidelines now, but like some

1364
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 3: I just get so I'm like, how did they even

1365
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 3: get away with half the stuff they like?

1366
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, some of.

1367
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 3: The stuff making up. It's just they did what they

1368
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 3: wanted to and they could just say I got a source,

1369
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 3: and you didn't have to identify who the source was

1370
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 3: or you you know, you just literally lie and it's fine,

1371
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 3: I have a source. Do you I am the source? Ki?

1372
01:14:55,479 --> 01:15:01,440
Speaker 1: They we're just like doing hand puppets, just like.

1373
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 3: What do you think wack is bancas?

1374
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: You know, Oh yes, I guess.

1375
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 3: That, Steph Love. Yeah, it's just the sensationalism with like

1376
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 3: the Victorian period and you know Edwardian stuff and eight

1377
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 3: from like the eighteen seventies to the like nineteen thirties, forties,

1378
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 3: fifties was just yeah.

1379
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 1: I think once once it started heading the sixties, things

1380
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 1: started evening out a little bit.

1381
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 3: But even then it was now, you know.

1382
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 1: The press, I mean I could say that. I say

1383
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: that as if the Daily Mail doesn't exist, Like.

1384
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 3: We have Fox here, it's fine, Fox and Friends, the Enquirer, No,

1385
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 3: that's just ugh anyway, nothing required. My grandmother used to

1386
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 3: keep those all piled up by the bed, and I'm like, oh, okay,

1387
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,799
Speaker 3: or like the weekly World News with all the alien stories,

1388
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 3: that's good stuff. But yeah, alas, we shall never know

1389
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,200
Speaker 3: who Jack the Ripper is, sadly.

1390
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: And I don't think it really matters who he was,

1391
01:15:58,200 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 1: because he was just a.

1392
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 3: Dick, trash trash. Buy those shirts on our merch something,

1393
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 3: get it on a sticker, put it on your cup.

1394
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:12,679
Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper was trash. I like it. Hey, Katie,

1395
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 3: that was fun.

1396
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 1: Right, all right, thank you Melissa for joining me.

1397
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 3: You are so welcome. That was fun. We'll find something else.

1398
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:23,640
Speaker 3: Just remember Jack's trash Jack is trash.

1399
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 1: All right, And I am gonna end this now. Great.

1400
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: That's my happy pigeon sound because I could not figure

1401
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: out how to do a sound effect. I just don't

1402
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 1: have any only and I'm very tired because I'm editing

1403
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: this so late at night. And that was the wonderful

1404
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:47,599
Speaker 1: Melissa fair Lady from The God's Favorites podcast and on TikTok.

1405
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: If you're on History Talk, you know her. If you're

1406
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: not on History Talk, go watch her. That is your

1407
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 1: recommendation for me this week. Watch her tiktoks and her

1408
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,920
Speaker 1: Instagram and listen to her podcast. It's fantastic. So what

1409
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: am I going to say though before we end this

1410
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 1: episode is I want to talk about one apologize if

1411
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 1: the sound equality is poor because this is my first

1412
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 1: time doing a two person thing and trying to edit

1413
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 1: my end. So and secondly, although we don't know Mary

1414
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: Jane Kelly's I don't know history, her real life, her

1415
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 1: real name, because all the clues point to the fact

1416
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: that we don't. However, we can at least take solace

1417
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 1: in the fact that whomever the White Chapel Killer was,

1418
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: whoever Jack may be, is someone called Jack Ass. The Ripper.

1419
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 1: Here's the thing about jack Ass the Ripper is that

1420
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 1: we don't know his real name. Whatever he was trying

1421
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: to do, whatever he was trying to prove, whatever innate

1422
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,599
Speaker 1: hatred he had that he was trying to push out

1423
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 1: in the world, his name is not known. The man

1424
01:17:55,840 --> 01:18:00,719
Speaker 1: wielding the knife, we don't know who that is, and frankly,

1425
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: I think we shouldn't find out because I don't think

1426
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 1: it matters. I don't think he deserves to have his

1427
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: name known, whether in infamy or not. And at the

1428
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 1: end of the day, whoever did kill Mary Jane and

1429
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: these other women, whether they were the same person, which

1430
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 1: I doubt, or multiple people, which I genuinely believe, then

1431
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 1: they are sad, pathitic men who hate women, and they're

1432
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,759
Speaker 1: not worthy of our time. What is worthy over time

1433
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:38,400
Speaker 1: is learning the stories of people who suffered, who dealt

1434
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 1: with this, who had to live in these conditions. And

1435
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: they say history is repeating. You know, those who don't

1436
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 1: learn history are doomed to repeat it. And that's right,

1437
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 1: and we need to make sure we don't repeat it

1438
01:18:52,479 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 1: because people, society, everybody deserves better originalized on the fringes

1439
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 1: of society. People who are pushed down minorities. They deserve better.

1440
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: And if you don't believe that, you are part of

1441
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:15,280
Speaker 1: the problem. Now go listen to Melissa and her amazing stuff.

1442
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to go now because it's very late and

1443
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 1: I need to get to sleep, because I need to

1444
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 1: edit this and it's so so long. But I am

1445
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 1: going to say adios au revoir of Where is all

1446
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 1: my friends?

1447
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 2: Bye bye, and I am unwell, as you can tell

1448
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 2: by my voice. I am with the French call lay sick.