WEBVTT - Fossil Fuel Use and Drug Development 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:05.119 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast. Catch us Saturdays 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.280 at one and seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.479 the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.760 on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.560 Welcome to Bloomberg Opinion. I'm Amy Morris. This week we 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.320 look at buy American not just a slogan, but a rule, 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.200 and there is concern now that that rule will make 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:32.280 America less safe. We've heard all about targeted cancer drugs 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.640 for years, but now it looks like they're finally starting 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.120 to show results that are more substantial than just the hype. 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.120 And we'll look at a call for the FDA to 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.239 get to the root of hair straighteners. But first we 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.680 begin with climate change and the debate over the science 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:54.600 of climate change. Science provides a framework for understanding the world, 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.720 but deciding how to shape policy based on that guidance 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.640 can be a matter of interpretation. During climate negotiations at 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:08.080 the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Dubai, a controversial 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.440 statement from Sultan Algebert, the oil executive who led the 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.200 COP twenty eight climate summit in Dubai, has resurfaced about 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.319 the limitations of science. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.200 And there is no science out there or no scenario 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.480 out there that says that the phase out of fossil 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.360 fuel is what's going to achieve one point five. One 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.240 point five is my not start, and a face down 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.320 and a face out of fosil fude, in my view, 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:36.480 is inevitable. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.199 He defended his comments, saying they've been misinterpreted. 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.360 I have said over and over that the phase down 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.520 and the phase out of fossil fuel is inevitable. I 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.400 honestly think that there is some confusion out there and 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.360 misrepresentation and misinterpretation. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:00.440 Let's turn out a Bloomberg opinion columnist Lara Williams covers 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.640 climate change, and she attended COP twenty eight. She can 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.320 shine some light on all of this forest. Lara Algebra's 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.400 comments are not wrong, they are true. So how much 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.360 room for interpretation is there? Really? 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.520 Every turn of carbon we put into the atmosphere ies 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.480 there's there's less and less room for interpretation. As you know, 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.080 our carbon budget for keeping warming temperatures under one point 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:31.880 five degrees is being reduced every day. But the IPCC, 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:36.200 so that is the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change. 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.480 They review all the science that's out there and they 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.680 come up with the report that determines based on you know, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.560 strong certainty, medium certainty, low certainty. It basically sums up 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.600 all the studies and science out there on climate change, 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.800 and they have a number of pathways and scenarios compassible 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.240 with limiting warming two one point five degrees and so 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:04.200 some of them like rely on what would happen if 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.840 we switch to renewables, what would happen if we relied 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.960 more heavily on energy efficiency measures, what would happen if 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.680 we rely on carbon capture technology. So the way that 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.359 you know it's presented in IPCC reports does leave room 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:25.680 for interpretation, which I guess, you know, people can you know, 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:30.920 choose their pathway based on what kind of priorities they have, 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:35.960 how confident they are in technology and the economics. But 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:41.840 having said that, all scenarios campassable with limitsing warm and 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.960 two one point five degree celsius above pre industrial temperatures, 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.160 which is ideally what we want to do, does involve 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:52.480 greatly reducing fossil fuel use to a fraction of what 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:53.120 it is today. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.280 And that's basically the point behind your column, which is 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.640 that the science is debatable but inescapable, which is how 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.160 you put in your column. You know, so often if 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.680 the science has proven correct, it's the fact there's not 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.760 a lot of wiggle room. That's what it is, black 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.000 and white. But that doesn't always seem to be the 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.680 case when it comes to climate change. As you distillustrated, 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.120 because there are so many different paths to get to 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.480 the actual answer. Is that why this is so hard 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.919 because we're in uncharted territory and there's so much debate 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:23.839 about how to get from point A to point B. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.000 I think so, I think, you know, and obviously you've 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.400 got to remember that everybody has their own entrenched interests, 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.400 and so renewables are really cheap, and so they're a 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.520 really good way to reduce fossil fuels, which is ultimately 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:41.760 what we need to do and therefore stop global warming. 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.880 But you know, some people made lots of money out 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.960 of fossil fuels, and so they're obviously going to want 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.960 to push a different agenda. And then some countries, you know, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.719 renewables aren't so cheap because the cost of capital is 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:00.640 more expensive. So developing nations might feel that even though 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.560 you know, they recognize that we shouldn't we need to 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:09.120 phase out fossil fossil fuels as quickly as possible. You know, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:13.960 developed nations like the UK and the US have kind 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.760 of really had the kind of former advantage and being 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.200 able to develop by using fossil fuels, and therefore it 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.279 might not be so fair or for them not to 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.240 be able to do that. So it becomes, I guess 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.200 a little bit more more competated when you're thinking about 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.520 enabling the continuation of sustainable development. 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.760 What was your takeaway when you heard the controversial statement 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:39.800 from Saltan Algebrat. 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.279 I well, I think that actually, you know, he's not 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:49.520 technically rounded, not technically run, as Jim Steer, the head 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:54.160 of the IPCC points out, but it's missing that crucial contacts, 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:59.800 which is the there's no room for expansion of fossil fuels, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:05.320 which is what AD not, which is the Abidabbi National 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:09.599 Oil Company, which algebra is the oil is the CEO 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.799 of an oil company they want to pump more oil 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.160 by twenty twenty seven. And you know, so his comments, 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.200 while technically true, kind of miss out that that concept, 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.200 which is there's there's no room for its mansion. We're 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.920 gonna we barely need any fossil fuels by twenty fifteen, 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.279 twenty one hundred if we follow a pathway compassible with 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.320 one point five and so he was kind of missing 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.200 out some ty facts. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.120 I also wondered if he also intended to include that 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.800 they'd have to do more than just limit fossil fuels. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.080 It sort of almost sounded like there's no pathway for 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.760 these fossil fuel limitations to get us to that goal, 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.320 because it won't be enough, you know what I mean, 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.760 Like it seemed like he was calling for to do 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.960 more than just focus on fossil fuels. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.719 Yes, and that is that is a good point. We 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.080 need to do more than just limit fossil fuels because 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.239 the way we use our lands, the way we grow 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.560 our foods, also contributes to global warming, and so that 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.040 there needs to be a lot more action. And if 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.640 we aren't going to phase out fossil fuels entirely, then 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.840 we're going to have to ramp up carbin tapture technology, 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.440 carbin removal technology, and so there is a lot of 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.400 words to be done beyond just twitting the use of 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:25.160 fossil fuels. 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.520 We are talking with Bloomberg Opinion columnist Lara Williams about 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.520 the science of climate change and if there's any room 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.080 for interpretation. Laura. One of the points you make in 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.080 your column on the Bloomberg Terminal is that the future 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.840 role of fossil fuels is one of the most controversial 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.080 issues that countries are grappling with at the Climate Summit. 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.200 Some have been pushing for a phase out, others are 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.440 calling for a weaker language of a phase down. Why 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.200 is all of this so very hard to nail down? 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:03.240 Well, because everybody has their different priorities and the I 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.040 guess the problem with the with the top process is 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.800 that everything has to be made by consensus, which means 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.880 all the parties of the United Nations have to agree. 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:20.160 And it's incredibly difficult to just you know, pick something 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.920 and stick to it when there are different you know, 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.800 they're at different levels of readiness, they have different economic abilities, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.720 they have you know, they make their money in different ways. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.520 It's you know, it'd be much easier for the UK 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.800 now to switch entirely to renewables what a You're mean 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.520 to do it by twenty thirty five than it is 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:46.800 for you know, potentially a poorer country which doesn't have 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:51.640 that capacity yet. And so that makes it difficult. And 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.679 then you know, you also have those entrenched interests in 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.720 some countries, like for example, Saudi Arabia, which will block 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.840 you know, the use of quite definitive language. They want 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.560 to leave as many options on the table as possible, 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.080 and so that's what makes it hard to just you know, 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:14.920 put a fossil fuel phase out on the table that 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.839 there's always going to be, Oh, there has historically always 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.440 been you know, some holdouts and people who don't want 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.760 that to happen because they make a lot of money 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.000 out of fossil fuels. It would mean completely changing the 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.400 way that they make their money and run their economy, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:33.640 and they are, I guess understandably extremely hesitant, even though 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.880 I say understandably in a way that I don't agree 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:38.119 with it obviously. 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.079 Well, you attended COP twenty eight. You were there. Did 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:46.160 anything at the conference stand out for you or surprise you? Well? 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:51.160 I think I was surprised. It's a very exciting place 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.760 to be. There's a buzz you you know, everybody from 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.319 all over the world, you know, every country is represented 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:02.240 at top twenty eight, which was trying. I found it interesting. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.520 You know, so you have every lots of nations and 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.840 NGOs have their pavilions where they you know, hold events 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:12.000 and you know, highlight the kind of things that they're 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.640 doing in their country or their group too, you know, 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.800 on time at Action. And I found interesting is in 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.080 one building, you know, you go in on the ground 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.520 floor and OPEC has their pavilion and you walk up 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.400 two flights of stairs and just above the OPEC pavilion 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.360 is the Indigenous People's pavilion calling out, you know, for 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.280 a complete phase out of fossil fuels. And so that 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.480 was a really interesting kind of judgtaposition of you know, 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.600 all all views were represented at. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.320 Prop Laura, thank you very much for your time today. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:44.000 Thank you. 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:49.440 Laura Williams is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist who covers climate change. Now, 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.040 coming up, we'll look at the by American rules, especially 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.480 when it comes to the military, and how some believe 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.800 that could make the US less safe. You're listening to 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:01.760 Bloomberg Opinion. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.280 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast counts Saturdays at 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.400 one and seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.600 iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.760 demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.000 You're listening to Bloomberg Opinion. I'm Amy Morris. A little 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.600 more than a year ago, President Biden laid out his 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:35.600 economic vision for America, including a buy American provision to 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.120 help invest in existing jobs, add more jobs, and secure 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:40.000 the supply chain. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.199 We're going to invest in America again, We're going to 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.320 make it in America again, and the federal government's going 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.880 to buy American. That's been my economic vision. 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.400 The buy American rules have long applied to the military's 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.680 purchase of things like food and clothes and construction supplies, 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.640 but now weapons manufacturers have some wide discretion to use 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.559 materials from outside the US if they have to, if 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.640 doing so is necessary for the country's defense. Well, now 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.960 Congress is taking steps to rain all of that. In 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.720 Bloomberg Opinion, editor Romes Retinassar is joining me now to 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.520 sort of help shed some light on what's going on here. First, Romesh, 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.720 thank you. And what does buy American mean? Really? 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:24.280 Well, dating back to the Depression, the federal government has 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:33.400 been required to source any goods that they purchase to 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:41.640 domestic sources. So at the moment, fifty five percent of 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:46.400 anything any goods that the federal government buys has to 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:53.400 contain content made in the United States. The Biden administration 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:59.240 has since coming into office tried to increase that threshold, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.559 so that number has now been bumped up to sixty percent, 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.960 with an aim, at least according to the executive order 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.560 that the administration put out, of getting to seventy five 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.120 percent by twenty twenty nine. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.120 Now, in your column, you say that the White House 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.120 and the protectionist forces in Congress, which is your terminology, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:23.880 they're taking steps to make it harder for the US 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.319 to replenish its weapons stockpiles. Not that that's their intent, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.240 but that maybe the end result. My first question is, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.080 how are the White House and protectionists on the same 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:34.880 page at all. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.160 Well, you know, the impulse behind a lot of this 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:45.640 sort of push to buy American is this idea that 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.120 what we've seen over the last several years is the 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.719 vulnerability of the US supply chain and the fact that 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.679 so many materials that we need that are critical to 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:05.680 our new national security are made overseas, and because of 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.920 that diffuse supply chain, we are vulnerable to shocks like 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:15.600 the pandemic, but also potentially to you know, military conflicts 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:23.200 with other countries, most notably China. So that's the kind 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:28.120 of basis for this push. The problem is that the 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:33.800 military needs access to technology and draws on technology from 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:39.000 all over the world. And the fact is that the military, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.640 just like many other parts of our economy, has been 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.800 using and trading with partners all over the world to 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:52.600 make its weapon systems. And a lot of weapon systems 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.000 that the military uses have components that are made in 0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:00.520 other parts of the world. And by increasing the threshold 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.720 that the military has to meet when they buy these weapons, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.600 you're going to actually make it harder and more costly 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.040 for the military to replenish its supplies when they run low, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.520 as they are running low right now. If you are 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.680 telling the military you can no longer use a supplier 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.440 that you have an arrangement with, that you have a 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:28.360 contract with that you've negotiated a lower price with, I mean, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.640 or a defense contractor those companies are then going to 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.280 have to find new suppliers. Maybe they're based in the US, 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.320 but the costs of doing that are going to be higher. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.800 And the other factor that people don't take into account 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.560 is a lot of the best stuff does come from overseas. 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.640 The United States in many cases doesn't manufacture the best 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:57.560 components for certain weapons systems, and the military has a 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.360 reason to use components that are made over because they're 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:06.880 better for they better protect the country security. So setting 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:13.480 these requirements, while well intended, could have these consequences that 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.320 could be actually quite negative for national security. 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.360 And we are talking with Bloomberg Opinion editor Roma is 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:24.400 rednas are about the downside of buy American. Remember when 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.400 we were kids, the idea of buy American became just 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.360 really entrenched. How did it get so entrenched in how 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:32.360 did it turn on us? 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.000 Well, I think that there still are good reasons to 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.760 buy American. There still are good reasons to try to 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:44.120 find ways to make as much as we can domestically. 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:48.080 I think that is, in the long run, the way 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:53.160 you can insulate yourself from unexpected supply chain shocks and disruptions. 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.360 I think the point is that if you talk to 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:01.080 people both in the Pentagon and also in the defense industry, 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:06.359 they would say, we're faced with an extraordinary challenge right now. 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:12.719 We are trying to supply arms to Ukraine, now to Israel, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:19.240 while also dealing with the potential for escalating tensions with 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.520 China and trying to make sure that Taiwan is adequately defended. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:30.560 There simply aren't enough resources domestically right now to meet 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:35.440 those needs. And if you've basically tied the Pentagon's hands 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:39.040 behind their back, you are going to make it harder, 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:44.400 more expensive, and less likely that they can actually meet 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.640 those national security needs and protect the country's security. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.720 What message does it send when those protectionist messages are 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:53.320 tacked into the defense budget. 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.040 Well, one of the biggest problems is the message it 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.200 sends to our allies. I mean, one of the things 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.720 that the military and the Pentagon has been trying to 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.800 do is encourage and build more partnerships with allies and 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:09.000 courage allies to take on a bigger role in defense production, 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:14.200 knowing that we can't do it all ourselves. By imposing 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:18.240 these kinds of rules, you're sort of discouraging allies from 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.560 cooperating in the same way. And you could lead to 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.720 some of our some countries we partner with very closely 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:33.000 erecting their own restrictions on the weapons that we produce. 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.760 And that's a again be counterproductive. You're going to hurt 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.720 American industry, You're going to cost Americans jobs if that happens. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:45.240 So the message it sends is we're trying to protect 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:50.119 our industries, You're going to encourage other countries to protect theirs, 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:57.800 and that's incompatible with a really coordinated multilateral defense strategy. 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.440 Where does this go from here at this point, what's 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.600 going to happen next, and is there any way to 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:04.119 resolve it? 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:05.080 Well? 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.720 I think what you're going to see is more pressure 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:13.320 for more explicit exceptions to this rule for our close 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:18.879 allies and partners. So we have arrangements trading arrangements with 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.439 a number of our NATO allies that basically allow the 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.040 Pentagon to do business with them and trade with them 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.560 without being affected by these rules. But there are a 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.000 lot of NATO allies that don't have those arrangements, and 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.440 then we have a lot of partners, especially in Asia, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.040 who don't have those arrangements. So more exemptions for those 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.399 countries I think might be one way to mitigate the 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.399 potential damage. And then I think more investment in building 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.280 up that defense industrial base in the US, even if 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.440 in the short term this is a bad idea, in 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.879 the long run, we do want to have and produce 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:57.919 more of the weapons we need here in the United States, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.199 and there are steps that can taken to upgrade the 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:09.280 workforce here, to encourage better contracting, better procurement practices. Those 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.000 are the kinds of things that need to be done 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.240 in the long run to build that defense industrial base 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:14.800 here at home. 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.359 Ramesh Ret Nazzar is a Bloomberg Opinion editor and coming 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.360 up the science surrounding targeted cancer drugs. It's giving more 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.760 people some hope. Don't forget. We're available as a podcast 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:30.280 on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. This is 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:31.240 Bloomberg Opinion. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.760 You're listening to the Bloomberg Opinion podcast. Catch us Saturdays 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.919 at one and seven pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.120 the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.400 on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.240 You're listening to Bloomberg Opinion. I'm Amy Morris and after 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.919 decades of fits and starts, the science around designing and 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.879 testing targeted cancer drugs has finally coalesced and this class 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.199 of drugs is now having its moment. The field has 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.000 gone through waves of hype and investment over the past 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.960 few decades, but now it's starting to look like the 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.320 hype may be more than just hype. Let's bring in 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.480 Bloomberg opinion columnist Lisa Jarvis. She covers biotech, healthcare, and 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.159 the pharmaceutical industry, and she's going to bring us up 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.159 to speed on this. First of all, Lisa, what is 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:29.800 a targeted cancer drug? 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:32.840 Right? So the class of drugs we're talking about is 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.720 called antibody drug conjugates. That's a wonky term, but basically, 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.040 the antibody part of the drug is going straight to 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.520 a protein that's on a tumor cell and tacked onto 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.880 the antibody is chemotherapy. I say tacked on as if 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.000 that's like it was just thrown on there, but actually 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:51.800 it's taken a lot of work to attach it to 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.280 the antibody in just the right way so that this 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:59.080 very powerful chemotherapy doesn't release until it hits the cancer cell. 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.560 So that means that the side effects should be a 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.200 lot more mild than when you just you couldn't give 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.960 this type of chemotherapy just on its own. You need 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.479 that antibody to bring it straight to the tumor. And 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.320 so people have been working on this for quite literally decades, 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.879 like forty years, trying to get this technology right, and 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.760 we're starting to see a host of just really impressive 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.000 data that these drugs can work in a broader range 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.679 of cancers than I think people anticipated in the past. 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.200 So what made the difference? What is new with these 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:33.439 drugs that they are finally starting to live up to, 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:35.520 as you say, the hype. 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:37.720 I think it took a lot of tinkering on all 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:43.159 parts of the actual molecule, picking the right antibody, but 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.520 really that linker was important because if it releases too early, 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.480 it could have toxic side effects. And then I think 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.760 clinical data, they're starting to understand where to use these drugs. 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.600 And we had a trial that came out that read 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:59.080 out last year in twenty twenty two in breast cancer. 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:02.679 That was a really big turning point for the field 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:06.240 because basically it was a drug that targeted a protein 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.920 called HER two that's on the surface of a lot 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.960 of breast cancers. But what they found was not only 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.600 did that drug help people live longer, but it also 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:20.000 you didn't need to have as much HER too around 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.800 that they previously thought, So that kind of opens the 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.360 door to using this in a lot more kinds of cancer. 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:30.520 Why is targeted therapy in and of itself so significant 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:34.440 so important? I understand that it's lessens the it lessens 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.800 the side effects, but does it make it more effective. 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.000 Well. One of the things they're also learning and that 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.080 has also changed the field, is that you know, they 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.679 have these bystander effects. So when you if you just 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.359 gave this, there's drugs that target just her two on 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:52.480 their own. Those are classic cancer drugs. They can only 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.960 kill cancer cells that have her too on the surface. 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:59.760 And this type of drug, once the chemo is released, 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:02.560 it can actually kill a few different cells. And so 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.240 there's having this bystander effect that turns out to be 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:10.280 really important and powerful and is increasingly something they're designing 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.840 into the drug. And so I think that's kind of 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.240 where the future is going with this class of drugs, 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:18.199 is understanding how to get them to kill not just 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:20.960 the one cell that it targeted, but some of its 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:23.600 neighbors that may not have that protein on the surface. 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.639 Which is important because not all tumor cells are alike. 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:29.040 We think of them as alike, but our two tumors 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.440 are actually heterogeneous and have lots of different things going 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:32.879 on there. 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:36.359 And we are talking with Bloomberg Opinion columnist Lisa Jarvis 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:40.160 about targeted cancer drug therapy and how it is finally 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.040 starting to live up to the hype and the work 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:47.320