Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
Speaker 1: And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. Okay, you may
Speaker 1: have taken a look at the title of the episode
Speaker 1: today and thought, girl, what Because this show has always
Speaker 1: centered around women's experiences, It's part of my mission. So
Speaker 1: if you're wondering why are we focusing on men, here
Speaker 1: is the reason. Aside from the fact that I've been
Speaker 1: sort of obsessing over the idea of modern masculinity and
Speaker 1: the crisis that everybody's talking about over the last few years,
Speaker 1: I looked at the statistics about the state of modern
Speaker 1: manhood and you're really shocking, and frankly, I think impossible
Speaker 1: to ignore. There's data everywhere that draws a dire picture
Speaker 1: of young men and boys grappling with emotional and economic
Speaker 1: and cultural pressures. Here's a startling statistic. The CDC says
Speaker 1: that the suicide rate among males in twenty twenty three
Speaker 1: was approximately four times higher than the rate among females.
Speaker 1: Males make up fifty percent of the population, but nearly
Speaker 1: eighty percent of suicides. Oh, that statistic breaks my heart. Man, woman,
Speaker 1: non binary. I hate that people are feeling sad, like
Speaker 1: that feeling deep pain right, And I doubt I'm telling
Speaker 1: you something you don't already know, because the past few
Speaker 1: years we've been bombarded with headlines about how men and
Speaker 1: boys are languishing, falling behind, isolated, and lost. But I
Speaker 1: feel what gets lost in those statistics is that we
Speaker 1: are all feeling the consequences of this our workplaces, our relationships,
Speaker 1: and our families. So today's guest is doctor Gary Barker.
Speaker 1: He's an international researcher who has spent decades studying men
Speaker 1: and boys across cultures, and whose TED talk on masculinity
Speaker 1: has reached millions. After witnessing a school shooting as a teenager,
Speaker 1: he really committed his entire career to the big questions
Speaker 1: surrounding modern manhood. Here he is in his twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four TED.
Speaker 2: Talk about forty to fifty percent of men in the
Speaker 2: world believe in a version of manhood that goes like this,
Speaker 2: I've got to outperform the other at all costs. I
Speaker 2: can't show that I'm vulnerable or ask for help. That
Speaker 2: sex is about conquests, not about intimacy and connection. These
Speaker 2: are things that men talk about. They create realities.
Speaker 1: Gary has spent his career having hard conversations, asking difficult
Speaker 1: questions about what is actually going on with men, because
Speaker 1: whether we like it or not, the state of men
Speaker 1: is shaping the world women are trying to live in,
Speaker 1: and at its core, that's what the feminist movement has
Speaker 1: always been about, not just advancing women, but also creating
Speaker 1: a world that is more equal, more humane, and more
Speaker 1: free for everyone, Which means we can't fully understand women's
Speaker 1: experiences without also understanding what's happening with men. So today
Speaker 1: I wanted to invite Gary on the pod to tackle
Speaker 1: some tough questions that I've been asking, that my friends
Speaker 1: have been talking about, and I want to do it together.
Speaker 1: A big one that we're circling today is what role
Speaker 1: do women play in the modern day crisis of manhood?
Speaker 1: And are we being asked to carry more of that
Speaker 1: than we should. It's time to question everything with doctor
Speaker 1: Gary Barker. Gary, you've spent decades searching men and boys
Speaker 1: across cultures, and this show has really always centered around
Speaker 1: women's experiences. I think some people tuning in today might say,
Speaker 1: why are we discussing or centering men? I have my opinions,
Speaker 1: but I want to ask you why is it important
Speaker 1: for women to care about the state of men and
Speaker 1: masculinity in the world right now? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Where do we start with that one? Well, thanks for
Speaker 2: having me given that caveat. I go to a lot
Speaker 2: of spaces where there's kind of what's that guy doing here?
Speaker 2: And why is he talking about this? I mean from
Speaker 2: the simplest level, you know, when men are harmed, we
Speaker 2: harm others, and women are often at the end of that.
Speaker 2: If we think about you love men, you live with men,
Speaker 2: You've got to figure out what's up with us? We
Speaker 2: love you, we live with you, We've got to figure
Speaker 2: out what's up with you. The stuff that we care
Speaker 2: about to help women be their full selves in the world,
Speaker 2: whether it's workplaces, politics, do you get to have voice
Speaker 2: in all the places you should have voice? It's typically
Speaker 2: men who are in the way you're also This is
Speaker 2: not to put the blame on women, but to say
Speaker 2: you're also you know, sort of consumers and bridge users
Speaker 2: of men. You also influence how we want to be
Speaker 2: in the world. We look to you to say, are
Speaker 2: we cool? Are we attractive? So we're in it together.
Speaker 2: There are definitely places where men want to talk amongst men,
Speaker 2: and women want to talk amongst women. But I do
Speaker 2: think the messiness of making the world better for women
Speaker 2: needs men and men need to be part of the
Speaker 2: messiness of making the world better for women.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like men care about the state of
Speaker 1: manhood and masculinity right now?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not something we're going to sit around
Speaker 2: at the bar and say, hey, get me an ipa
Speaker 2: and let's talk about what's up with men. It's not
Speaker 2: like folks want to come and say, Gary, tell me
Speaker 2: about your research on men and masculinities. It's in the water,
Speaker 2: right It's what we're drinking. It's men's confusion. It's how
Speaker 2: politicians and others are taking advantage of it. It's not
Speaker 2: an easy conversation because part of the way manhood works
Speaker 2: is you don't stop and talk about it. You just
Speaker 2: get out there and do shit.
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something I learned from your
Speaker 1: research and it's one of the reasons I care about
Speaker 1: this topic. Yeah, you've stated that fifty percent of American
Speaker 1: men have seriously contemplated suicide. That is so heartbreaking and
Speaker 1: so alarming to me, and regardless of gender as a
Speaker 1: human being, that hurts me.
Speaker 2: And you know the number if we look at young
Speaker 2: men eighteen to twenty five, it's about forty percent in
Speaker 2: the last two weeks. I mean, you know, if we
Speaker 2: look at CDC numbers and other folks who work in
Speaker 2: mental health, the numbers tell us that young people are
Speaker 2: feeling what is this planet we're on? I mean, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of reasons to be anxious about life. There
Speaker 2: is a crisis of loneliness. And one of the things
Speaker 2: related to that is do I feel I've got purpose
Speaker 2: and reason for being here. I think we're really worried
Speaker 2: about with young men and men in general, is that
Speaker 2: we don't ask for help. The overall suicide rates of
Speaker 2: men compared to women attempt more men are two thirds
Speaker 2: to three quarters of suicide depending on the country those
Speaker 2: who carry it out, and so part of it is
Speaker 2: because manhood doesn't allow you to say, I need help.
Speaker 2: I'm really on edge. I don't think my life has
Speaker 2: much meaning. Those are words that are not very easy
Speaker 2: for men to express, not that it's easy for women.
Speaker 2: But there's more communication, there is more reaching out to friends,
Speaker 2: there is more kind of social acceptability of women asking
Speaker 2: for help. So my colleagues and I, who carried out
Speaker 2: that research, are very concerned about that. It doesn't surprise
Speaker 2: mental health professionals. It doesn't surprise teachers often, which is
Speaker 2: in it of itself, is a problem because we see
Speaker 2: the crisis of loneliness and disconnection that so many young
Speaker 2: men are facing. And again it's not that young women
Speaker 2: are all what a wonderful world this is at the moment, necessarily,
Speaker 2: but there is more a sense of solidarity and I
Speaker 2: can talk about it and reach out for help.
Speaker 1: I'm interested in the word you used, loneliness crisis, loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 1: I've often heard this called a crisis, the masculinity crisis.
Speaker 1: Do you consider it a crisis?
Speaker 2: Yes. The way we set up manhood in general, it's
Speaker 2: like a walking crisis. Right. You're supposed to be the protector,
Speaker 2: the provider. You're always ready to have sex. The list
Speaker 2: is long of what you're supposed to do that none
Speaker 2: of us really achieve it. Particularly in a capitalist economy
Speaker 2: that has a lot of stuff for a few people
Speaker 2: and not much for lots of others. You're sort of
Speaker 2: set up for failure. So it's a crisis, you know,
Speaker 2: as a permanent state. Add to that an economy that
Speaker 2: feels unstable, a planet that's partly overheating and maybe on
Speaker 2: fire in some places, a world that says, you know,
Speaker 2: women can do all these things too, So we're not
Speaker 2: quite sure what our role is. You've got, like the
Speaker 2: crisis is catching even more momentum behind it, So yes,
Speaker 2: I do think there's something called a crisis, something that's
Speaker 2: already on shaking around.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, you did a beautiful Ted talk
Speaker 1: and you pointed to two instances that really led you
Speaker 1: to this work. Will you share those with us?
Speaker 2: Sure? One of those that I started in the Ted
Speaker 2: talk was about US school shooting that I witnessed in
Speaker 2: the late seventies in suburban Houston, Texas. Way back at
Speaker 2: the beginning when the US started to talk about things
Speaker 2: that we now call school shootings mass shootings. We now
Speaker 2: have this vocabulary that's made them almost normal. Last time
Speaker 2: I looked at the numbers, there's something like two hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand of us in the US who have
Speaker 2: witnessed or survived a shooting at our school. Crazy numbers.
Speaker 2: And in that slow motion thing when traumatic things happen
Speaker 2: in your life, as you look at that and say
Speaker 2: what's going on? Later on able to look and say
Speaker 2: it was a young man following the script about manhood
Speaker 2: in front of the rest of us said, and I
Speaker 2: don't share this lightly, it's tough stuff to talk about,
Speaker 2: stood up in front of about one hundred of us
Speaker 2: and said, you stole my girlfriend and you're going to pay,
Speaker 2: and he executed him in front of us. He wanted
Speaker 2: it to be seen. He announced why he was doing it.
Speaker 2: Obviously there's lots of other reasons he was doing it, causes,
Speaker 2: but it was, as has been in the last forty
Speaker 2: plus years, mostly young men with weapons who are carrying
Speaker 2: out these crimes. They are tragedies that we see forthcoming.
Speaker 2: So making sense of like how do we make manhood?
Speaker 2: So we all knew the challenges that these two boys
Speaker 2: had faced. Early on, teachers saw them, probably tried to
Speaker 2: help family stuff, access to guns. The list is long,
Speaker 2: but there's a script about manhood that was behind it.
Speaker 2: It did not in that particular moment. It was a
Speaker 2: lot of years in making sense of it and saying,
Speaker 2: where do we go with this? How do we understand
Speaker 2: how we make young men?
Speaker 1: So great question though, because I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of directions experiencing something like that could take you, and
Speaker 1: you ran towards research in this way, can you point
Speaker 1: back to why?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, you know, the first part of my
Speaker 2: career was working with survivors of violence, whether they were
Speaker 2: refugee children in Central America, street youth and Colombia, young
Speaker 2: men and favelas in Rio, young men and women in
Speaker 2: other settings of high violence. I felt like I needed
Speaker 2: to do this, and I think partly where I wanted
Speaker 2: to look up stream was to say, we need to
Speaker 2: do that. We must provide support to those who are
Speaker 2: survivors of violence. But how do we look upstream if
Speaker 2: we want to break the cycle? What is it that
Speaker 2: leads men to do this? And part of my work
Speaker 2: led me to work in favelas in Rio, which you
Speaker 2: could think folks normally have ideas that, oh, these are
Speaker 2: places of lots of violence, police violence, gang violence. All
Speaker 2: that's true, but day to day you see more acts
Speaker 2: of resistance to violence than you do violence. And so
Speaker 2: looking at that, I said, how do we understand all
Speaker 2: these young men in settings like this who don't go
Speaker 2: on to use violence? So research for me was an
Speaker 2: excuse to ask questions. Tell me about your life, how
Speaker 2: has that gone? What helped you get through? Why didn't
Speaker 2: you go this way the same way that your brother
Speaker 2: or your peer did? So not research is like a cold,
Speaker 2: you know, paper that sits on an academic website, but
Speaker 2: a reason to engage in questions, to say, tell me
Speaker 2: your story. I'll tell you a bit of mine. Could
Speaker 2: I understand from there how we make nonviolence? That's really
Speaker 2: been my research question.
Speaker 1: What do you understand about yourself now that you didn't
Speaker 1: see in yourself? Then it took me a.
Speaker 2: Lot of years to use feeling words about what happened.
Speaker 1: Because would you intellectualize it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Of course, And you talk about what happened, not
Speaker 2: how I felt about what happened? Right, it was this incident, right,
Speaker 2: So you I do that too. Yeah, it's what we
Speaker 2: need to from you know, traumatic events, difficult events to
Speaker 2: make sense of what was the stuff that happened, So
Speaker 2: let me think through the actions, but then to stop
Speaker 2: and say how did I feel about that? How did
Speaker 2: this affect me?
Speaker 1: Well, it hurts. That's when you start trying.
Speaker 2: And we're not supposed to do that. And you could
Speaker 2: also tell that lots of people around you, because of
Speaker 2: their deep discomfort, they didn't want to deal with you
Speaker 2: feeling traumatic about it because teachers, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: felt they were responsible for keeping you safe. My parents
Speaker 2: had lots of difficulty with it as well, because it's
Speaker 2: really tough now that I'm a parent looking and going, damn,
Speaker 2: I feel responsible for everything that happens to her and
Speaker 2: I couldn't be there to protect you. So I can
Speaker 2: understand that deep discomfort. And then most of the day
Speaker 2: we walk around acting like it's all okay, So you
Speaker 2: talk about what happened, not the feeling part. So I
Speaker 2: think that was sort of years later that someone asked
Speaker 2: me what did you feel about what happened that day?
Speaker 2: And then you could just sort of let it all
Speaker 2: go of, like, oh, yeah, what did you feel? Fear,
Speaker 2: deep sadness, anger at the part that this should not
Speaker 2: have happened, Lots of things could have been done upstream helpless,
Speaker 2: which is not really easy for men that were so
Speaker 2: conditioned to say we can do something like that. There
Speaker 2: was nothing we could do to make it better. There
Speaker 2: are folks who work in military and police, etc. Who
Speaker 2: have seen lots of folks be killed. But I think
Speaker 2: you must feel tragedy and deep harm when you see
Speaker 2: another human being's life taken far earlier than it should
Speaker 2: have been, and you know the pain both for the
Speaker 2: young man who killed the other as well as the
Speaker 2: one who was killed.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting across from you thinking I wonder who you
Speaker 1: would have been had that incident not occurred, which is
Speaker 1: maybe a useless question, but it's just so wild to
Speaker 1: me how that incident really changed the whole course of
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there were other pieces that were there.
Speaker 2: My father was a social worker. He passed about three
Speaker 2: years ago. My siblings were adopted. We had foster children
Speaker 2: throughout my childhood, and all the stories or all the
Speaker 2: reasons that children ended up in needing out of home
Speaker 2: care was mostly about men, violence, neglect, harm that men caused.
Speaker 2: My moving to work with people who are affected by
Speaker 2: trauma and violence and asking that deeper question I think
Speaker 2: was definitely provoked by witnessing that shooting. The belief that
Speaker 2: there were other ways of thinking about manhood and other
Speaker 2: versions of manhood that were not violent, was definitely planted,
Speaker 2: you know, with my dad and his deep ethic and
Speaker 2: political cause of care.
Speaker 1: How beautiful to have had that.
Speaker 2: He's a cool guy.
Speaker 1: So in all the conversations that you're having, in all
Speaker 1: the rooms you're in talking about masculinity, is there something
Speaker 1: that you feel like is actually missing from the conversation.
Speaker 2: A lot of things.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, well, like that's the conversation I
Speaker 1: want to have with you today, aiming so you.
Speaker 2: Know you asked before about the crisis. Yes there's a crisis.
Speaker 2: Yes we've got suicide and loneliness. But I think more
Speaker 2: focus on the solutions that are in plain sight. And
Speaker 2: I think we spent a lot of time talking about
Speaker 2: how to pick up the pieces of men who have
Speaker 2: been harmed, in men who cause harm. How do we
Speaker 2: flip into what is it that you know, phils men's heart?
Speaker 2: What is it that really we're passionate about that we
Speaker 2: care about who and what do we love? Because so
Speaker 2: many of the conversations have been around what men are
Speaker 2: not doing the portion of care work that we're not doing.
Speaker 2: A family that we're not supporting, the violence that we
Speaker 2: carried out, the mental health services that we're not seeking. Yes,
Speaker 2: we got to look at all the problems, but it
Speaker 2: feels like the solution's part of it. I think what
Speaker 2: I find missing in the room a lot is to
Speaker 2: see men as caring, feeling fully warm blooded human beings
Speaker 2: who give a damn about things that are beyond you know,
Speaker 2: sports and other things that we can give a damn
Speaker 2: about those two, But often a lot of our energy
Speaker 2: seems to be at superficial stuff and we don't talk
Speaker 2: about the deeper stuff.
Speaker 1: What are men talking about in rooms that they don't
Speaker 1: say out loud with women in the room.
Speaker 2: Depends on who starts a conversation a lot of times,
Speaker 2: but if we can get down to, you know, feeling honest,
Speaker 2: it's confusion. So I'm father of a daughter and you know,
Speaker 2: raise partly in Brazil, partly in the US, and there
Speaker 2: were all these whatever you want to call them, scripts, ideas, stories,
Speaker 2: heroines to point or two that said you can be anything,
Speaker 2: And I don't think we've had a similar space for
Speaker 2: men to say it's not as easy. It's not the
Speaker 2: same as what it was for our dads and for
Speaker 2: our grandfathers, and you know, a generation or half generation earlier.
Speaker 1: You don't think that men feel like this is like
Speaker 1: a very sort of obvious example. But like, we haven't
Speaker 1: had a female president. So the idea of like you
Speaker 1: can't be what you can't see, I think people point
Speaker 1: to that. I think men have been in almost every space.
Speaker 1: So help me understand what you mean more deeply.
Speaker 2: So flip that around. We've never had you know, a
Speaker 2: first gentleman, right of like, what is it like to
Speaker 2: be the man who supports his partner interesting in a
Speaker 2: heterosexual relationship to be the president of the most powerful
Speaker 2: country in the world. Right, So, I think that's part
Speaker 2: of the flip side. Where do we hold you up
Speaker 2: for being a stay at home dad? Where do we
Speaker 2: give you, you know, sort of lessons of how to
Speaker 2: be a fully emotionally resilient and resident human being.
Speaker 1: Right, So you're saying in sort of these new roles
Speaker 1: that weren't Yeah, that makes a lot of Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't mean no, we don't need more. Yes, it's
Speaker 2: always good to have, you know, some role models as
Speaker 2: engineers and rocket scientists. There's enough men in that space,
Speaker 2: but yeah, in the space that says women can be
Speaker 2: there too. And if men used to think my unique
Speaker 2: role is to be this provider, protector, et cetera. If
Speaker 2: you want to go on that list, what about the
Speaker 2: other stuff? Because women can do all those things, what
Speaker 2: have we told men about? What else can you be besides?
Speaker 2: Am I only just the money that I earned? And
Speaker 2: after that, I feel, yeah, there's a huge sense of
Speaker 2: economic uncertainty. The jobs that kind of used to feel
Speaker 2: like mostly men's jobs are either not there or now
Speaker 2: you're competing with the whole world, not just men, for
Speaker 2: those other jobs. And then second, you know, guys will
Speaker 2: start talking about relationship confusion. What is it to be
Speaker 2: in relationships these days?
Speaker 1: I experience that I'm whole.
Speaker 2: New rules, I'm you know, I'm in a committed relationship
Speaker 2: for a long time. So I listened to this. You know,
Speaker 2: it's not like just in one moment you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I got it, figured it out. But I think there's
Speaker 2: a lot of confusion in these days of how do
Speaker 2: we hook up? Who does what, who proposes what, and
Speaker 2: all the rest.
Speaker 1: I want to touch on something that you just shared,
Speaker 1: because I think some men are told that they benefit
Speaker 1: from the patriarchy, but they're struggling financially or in industries
Speaker 1: where they lose out on jobs because they are a
Speaker 1: white man, and then they get blamed for systems like
Speaker 1: the Me Too era where all men I think were
Speaker 1: basically told they were bad. Right, and it's more nuanced
Speaker 1: than that, But the men I speak to often say like,
Speaker 1: I didn't create those systems, and I'm being held accountable
Speaker 1: for those systems. And at the same time, all of
Speaker 1: this change is necessary. How do you wrap your head
Speaker 1: around all of that?
Speaker 2: That is sort of what we're asking men these days
Speaker 2: to think about. Right, I need to be responsible for
Speaker 2: a world that treats women fairly and that women are safe,
Speaker 2: not harassed, not subject to assault of multiple kinds. Men
Speaker 2: need to be allies for that. And yet at the
Speaker 2: same time, how do we say it is not all men?
Speaker 2: But how do I say I'm responsible for what I
Speaker 2: do in reaction to other men? So how do we
Speaker 2: get men to feel like, be responsible for the part
Speaker 2: that you should be responsible for while affirming that most
Speaker 2: men are not harassing or assaulting you know, we talk
Speaker 2: about it as calling in and calling out. We do
Speaker 2: need to call it men when they cause harm, but
Speaker 2: I think we have to ask how did we do
Speaker 2: it and how do we do it? In terms of
Speaker 2: me Too, our approach has typically been he caused harm,
Speaker 2: get him out of the room. I don't want to
Speaker 2: see him again, as opposed to you know, say somebody
Speaker 2: in your family who causes harm, They're still part of
Speaker 2: your family. These are still our brothers and fathers and workmates.
Speaker 2: How do we have a conversation that says you cause harm,
Speaker 2: but you've got to stay in the room. You've got
Speaker 2: to acknowledge the harm that you carried out. But we
Speaker 2: can't just kick you out of the room and we're done.
Speaker 2: And I think part of how me Too has been
Speaker 2: absolutely necessary is calling attention. The part that I think
Speaker 2: we're missing is how do we say harm has been
Speaker 2: carried out. You need to acknowledge it, but you got
Speaker 2: to be here with us. Your restorative part means be
Speaker 2: in the room and accept the challenge that it is
Speaker 2: to look the person that you caused harm in the eye,
Speaker 2: to be able to talk through how do I get
Speaker 2: better and what can I do to make up from
Speaker 2: some of the harm that I caused that part of
Speaker 2: the conversation we don't have, and I think that to
Speaker 2: me and the me too moment is really crucial. I
Speaker 2: hear lots of young men who are worried about making
Speaker 2: the first move if they're interested in even that expression
Speaker 2: is at off. But you know, kind of what can
Speaker 2: I do? Yeah? Am I going to be seen as
Speaker 2: that creep? So I think it's good that men think
Speaker 2: twice three times and use words. How about they ask
Speaker 2: how do we help them? You know, say, I'm kind
Speaker 2: of interested in you to help men feel safe with
Speaker 2: the bumbling that might be necessary, so that we don't
Speaker 2: just assume things and we get better at asking questions
Speaker 2: listening to it. So I don't think we've taught our
Speaker 2: sons very well how to do that.
Speaker 1: Well. I'm interested in the second part of what you said,
Speaker 1: because while I do think the first part of the
Speaker 1: people that have done wrong, holding them accountable and having
Speaker 1: hard conversations is important. The majority of men have not
Speaker 1: done harm, but they are part of this system that
Speaker 1: we're now condemning the system. And I guess my big question,
Speaker 1: and I don't know that there's an answer, is how
Speaker 1: do we condemn the system without condemning the individual.
Speaker 2: And that's where I think it leans into. How do
Speaker 2: we help men see ourselves as beneficiaries of a world
Speaker 2: where women are safe to walk down the street, women
Speaker 2: are safe to be at the workplace, women are seen
Speaker 2: and heard and respected, that we as men benefit from
Speaker 2: that system working well, right, rather than only talking about
Speaker 2: men as perpetrators within the harm.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting, So talking about how the patriarchy harms
Speaker 1: men as it does.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not an instead of it's not an
Speaker 2: either or. We're not like counting the weight of patriarchy
Speaker 2: on our shoulders and saying, oh, it weighs more for me. Now,
Speaker 2: that is not a very useful argument. But to say
Speaker 2: women experience this, how is that for you?
Speaker 1: Men?
Speaker 2: How do you feel about it? That guy who is
Speaker 2: the harasser, and again it's not about making these simplistically
Speaker 2: the same. He's often also a guy who shuts up
Speaker 2: other guys, who also is bullying in some of his behavior.
Speaker 2: Often when it is not safe for women to walk
Speaker 2: down the street, there's probably other things going on that
Speaker 2: I want men to feel responsible for, but also to
Speaker 2: acknowledge that safer street, that safer workplace, a world where
Speaker 2: a woman could be president is also a place that
Speaker 2: most men want to live. It is just a better,
Speaker 2: more humane space.
Speaker 1: Are you in an ideal world calling for more camaraderie
Speaker 1: between men?
Speaker 2: Yes, and between men and women for making the world
Speaker 2: better for women, And I believe that one of the
Speaker 2: ripple effects is it'll be better for men too.
Speaker 1: Do you find that women have that camaraderie? Like, do
Speaker 1: we hold each other accountable for our wrongdoing?
Speaker 2: I can speak for my male body, so more what
Speaker 2: I've observed. Yeah, but you can tell me right, there's
Speaker 2: obviously lots of you know, kinds of verbal violence and
Speaker 2: aggression between women. Sisterhood is not this automatic thing that
Speaker 2: exists all over the place, but there is a political
Speaker 2: space that says women want to unite on having the
Speaker 2: world be safe and fair for us. We've not had
Speaker 2: an equivalent movement that said men should be carrying connected
Speaker 2: humans who support women being the best they can in
Speaker 2: the world, and we get to be better humans as
Speaker 2: males in the process. It's not easy to get in
Speaker 2: one phrase, but I think that's what we're after, right.
Speaker 2: I want men to see our stake in a world
Speaker 2: where women are safe, equal and get to be their
Speaker 2: full selves. I don't want men doing that only as
Speaker 2: a favor. I want them to do it because it's
Speaker 2: politically right, but also to say, because I want to
Speaker 2: live in a world where women are safe, because it's
Speaker 2: probably a better world for me too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, I think the hard
Speaker 1: part about what you're asking is that being a human
Speaker 1: being is being self interested, and so how do you
Speaker 1: overcome that? But you're saying that it is in your
Speaker 1: best interest?
Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe self interest becomes interdependent, which I think
Speaker 2: is a better word. Same more so that I am
Speaker 2: because you are. We are in these same spaces together,
Speaker 2: we're breathing the same air. So it is partly yes,
Speaker 2: you know, if I see myself as connected to others
Speaker 2: and I'm responsible for them your well being as my
Speaker 2: well being, I hope we get beyond just to enlightened
Speaker 2: self interest to a we're interdependent here. The household is
Speaker 2: going to thrive if let's say heterosexual household. She's got income,
Speaker 2: so I don't have to do it all. I'm doing
Speaker 2: my portion of the care work so she can be
Speaker 2: what she wants to be in the world. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think good relationships work in that idea of interdependence.
Speaker 2: And usually when relationships break down is when we start
Speaker 2: just counting my chips compared to your chips.
Speaker 1: And my friends who are heterosexual in their relationships once
Speaker 1: they have kids, it's the most common thread I see.
Speaker 1: The biggest fight is he's doing less or she's doing less.
Speaker 2: I mean, having conversations about that is so vital. How
Speaker 2: do we get to a I can't thrive if you're
Speaker 2: not thriving, rather than a guilt based you didn't do
Speaker 2: your additional fourteen minutes of you know, work over here, right,
Speaker 2: That's when I think we kind of break down a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 1: Why do you think these conversations are so politically and
Speaker 1: emotionally charged. I'm sort of smiling with you because we
Speaker 1: were together in a conversation ahead of this and it
Speaker 1: got really charged in a way I wasn't anticipating. My
Speaker 1: takeaway was there is so much resentment and anger and
Speaker 1: frustration for people around this issue. I can't figure out why.
Speaker 2: You know, it's our intimate relationships when we're figuring out
Speaker 2: what it means to be in love, and there's the
Speaker 2: happiness moment, and then there's the oh, we've created a
Speaker 2: household together. Maybe it's got children that go with it.
Speaker 2: Then there's the administration part that comes into it, right,
Speaker 2: like are we doing our share so that the other
Speaker 2: can be all they want to be in the world?
Speaker 2: Are we willing to make the compromises? I mean, we
Speaker 2: also walk into relationships with these big ideals in our
Speaker 2: head and then we go, oh, it's not quite as easy.
Speaker 2: I think we're obviously wrapped up in deep feelings about
Speaker 2: it because of what we expect from the other and
Speaker 2: what we think this relationship should be and what we
Speaker 2: think they owe us. It's a lot I think that
Speaker 2: we also expect of relationships in our American mostly nuclear households.
Speaker 2: It's like your partner is your best friend, you're amazing lover,
Speaker 2: your co parent, your co administrator. Like we weigh and lay
Speaker 2: so many things on one single person, gets really thick,
Speaker 2: and can you maintain sort of generosity and humor and
Speaker 2: acknowledging the flawed humanity of the other and your own
Speaker 2: flawed humanity. It's pretty amazing when you can make it work, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, honestly, all I was thinking is like, I
Speaker 1: can't believe my parents are still married. That's wild. So
Speaker 1: you wrote something I want to read back to you
Speaker 1: if that's okay. Young boys and men in this country
Speaker 1: are not okay, and we are all paying the price
Speaker 1: for it, whether through mass shootings, high rates of suicide,
Speaker 1: sexual assault and attacks against women, hate crimes, or even
Speaker 1: the insurrection on January sixth, twenty twenty. Some men are
Speaker 1: expressing their anger through violence and turning to despair and
Speaker 1: self harm. I want to zoom out and start with
Speaker 1: our modern ideas around manhood. Who taught us what it
Speaker 1: means to be a man in America?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Where did we come from? First of all, there
Speaker 2: was a heavy sentence now that I'm looking back on it, going, Man,
Speaker 2: what a week or month or year that was of Yeah,
Speaker 2: all that stuff is loaded there. Yeah. Where did we learn?
Speaker 2: I mean from a rugged individualism, you know that we
Speaker 2: can do it all by ourselves, a version of manhood
Speaker 2: that conquers our mythical empty country that as Europeans came in,
Speaker 2: settled it this. Yeh. You know, I am the work
Speaker 2: that I produce, right, so the individual entrepreneur who can
Speaker 2: make it all happen? You know, lay on years of
Speaker 2: patriarchy that say men are in charge of deciding when
Speaker 2: and how sex takes place, that men should be the
Speaker 2: sexually active ones and women the passive ones. You know,
Speaker 2: So where do we learn them? Church, home, media, our friends,
Speaker 2: our peer groups, in our first interactions with our male
Speaker 2: and female peer groups. So it's all those places. It's
Speaker 2: in the water, it's in the air, you know. We
Speaker 2: do research in lots of those places, looking how stories
Speaker 2: are told on television, looking at how parents talk about it.
Speaker 2: It's all those places we learn it. It seems to
Speaker 2: matter most kind of who we hang out with.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, and boys around.
Speaker 2: You and women too, who model you know, a version
Speaker 2: and say, look, you know, this kind of tough guy
Speaker 2: version that leads to all these sources of harm is
Speaker 2: really not okay, it's not the version we're after. So
Speaker 2: I think it matters most those closest to you, obviously,
Speaker 2: if you're not talking about it much at home. Now
Speaker 2: we have this whole new space called the manisphere and
Speaker 2: lots of influencers who are bringing a version of manhood in.
Speaker 2: But I still think it's kind of who cares about
Speaker 2: you the most that you're looking to for these ideas
Speaker 2: about manhood.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because in the manosphere, I'll listen to some
Speaker 1: of those conversations just to understand and hear.
Speaker 2: So sorry about that, that's weighty.
Speaker 1: I think my favorite definition of wisdom is to hold
Speaker 1: two opposing treths at one time. So I'm big On
Speaker 1: the other hand, like, if I think one thing, I
Speaker 1: want to know the exact opposite. And I think what
Speaker 1: I've garnered is that we are all angry. Women are
Speaker 1: angry and men are angry, and that's the charge. But
Speaker 1: I want to share something that's sort of like an
Speaker 1: armchair theory and it's something i've experienced. Just get your
Speaker 1: opinion on it. So the women that I'm friends with
Speaker 1: or even meet are so excellent, and I don't say
Speaker 1: that in a like hyperbolic way. If you looked at
Speaker 1: their resume, are really excellent at work, and then they're
Speaker 1: excellent human beings. They work on themselves, whatever modality that
Speaker 1: is for them. They are good sisters and wives and mothers.
Speaker 1: And it feels like when we were growing up, the
Speaker 1: bar was so high for women, and sometimes it feels
Speaker 1: like the bar was not as high for men. And
Speaker 1: so as I'm dating, I'm not meeting bad people, but
Speaker 1: it just feels like they're not at my level. I
Speaker 1: know that's a big to say, but it's not just
Speaker 1: my experience. There's a lot of women who feel that way.
Speaker 1: And one of the things I'm wondering about men. What
Speaker 1: I've seen from being in romantic relationships is that men
Speaker 1: rise to the occasion. They really want to be good
Speaker 1: to please, like it's important to them. And I don't
Speaker 1: think we're doing a good job societally to say that
Speaker 1: it feels like a negative conversation instead of a positive one.
Speaker 1: Give me your reaction and feel free to like yell
Speaker 1: at me and push back.
Speaker 2: I hear this from a lot of women as well, like,
Speaker 2: what is up with men? Why is it so hard
Speaker 2: to find one who feels my fill in the blank intellectual, professional,
Speaker 2: emotional equal? What have we done? I mean, that's a
Speaker 2: big generalization, but yet you're living it right And how
Speaker 2: you describe, you know, men you've met, you know, it
Speaker 2: probably is true historically that you could coast and be
Speaker 2: there's even a book about this called Mediocre, about you know,
Speaker 2: that men could be mediocre and kind of get a
Speaker 2: decent job. The world was sort of set up for
Speaker 2: us to go be breadwinners, even in jobs that we
Speaker 2: didn't have to really excel and be all that good
Speaker 2: at Women have had to for a generation be you know,
Speaker 2: as good as men and probably a bit better to
Speaker 2: get those same jobs. So I think you know that
Speaker 2: steam is behind your back. And I think a lot
Speaker 2: of men were still oh wait, we used to just
Speaker 2: have to convene against other men and we didn't all
Speaker 2: have to be great. We'd all get a job, we'd
Speaker 2: find a place. So there may be something true to that, Right,
Speaker 2: men did not have to work as hard as women
Speaker 2: have for a generation or so to like say, we
Speaker 2: deserve to be here too. Right, we say that every
Speaker 2: presidential election when a woman runs, that she's got to
Speaker 2: be as good as the male candidate and actually a
Speaker 2: bit better, more emotionally mature, and lots of other stuff. Right.
Speaker 1: I think that goes through any minority grew.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, You've really had to excel because the bar
Speaker 2: was held. I mean, the pressures and everything was there.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The other part that I will hear from men often
Speaker 2: is like the things that women want from me, Like
Speaker 2: I've got to be emotionally responsible in a moment, and
Speaker 2: I've got to be tough enough to fight off you know,
Speaker 2: the marauding hordes at the gate in the same breath,
Speaker 2: I've got to be able to do this and got
Speaker 2: to be able to do this. I've got to be
Speaker 2: able to be that amazing breadwinner and have endless time
Speaker 2: to care for children at home, Like, does she not
Speaker 2: see that I'm also doing all this work outside the home,
Speaker 2: so we have an economic stability at home. So I
Speaker 2: hear from men as well, this kind of that we're
Speaker 2: being held up to. Can we do all these things?
Speaker 1: Can I retort really quick too? I think the retort
Speaker 1: from women, at least to my instinct, is I agree
Speaker 1: with everything you said. Yeah, And I do not think
Speaker 1: it is easy to be a man. The and part
Speaker 1: feels like that is what it is like to be
Speaker 1: a woman, Like you have to be a boss at
Speaker 1: work and come home and be sexy and demure. It
Speaker 1: is living in the end. So it's like we're kind
Speaker 1: of like, why can't you do it too?
Speaker 2: Talking to some young men recently, they were like, you know,
Speaker 2: dating apps these days, and it's like you're just judged.
Speaker 2: You know. It used to be you were just compared
Speaker 2: to like the guy next to you in the classroom.
Speaker 2: Now you're compared to like all other men on the planet.
Speaker 2: It was like, welcome to what women may have faced
Speaker 2: for a couple of centuries. I absolutely agree with you.
Speaker 2: It's not a very will weigh in with men to
Speaker 2: help them through that angst? Yeah right, I will wait,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe half an hour into the conversation to
Speaker 2: go tell me more about how you feel that way,
Speaker 2: and then maybe I'll land one women feel about these
Speaker 2: apps that now you know newdify them and you know,
Speaker 2: fill in the blank. And I do think we both
Speaker 2: win if we figure out, like just how much of
Speaker 2: these gender roles to call them that are just kind
Speaker 2: of crap and they don't really help us get through
Speaker 2: the day and be the humans we want to be.
Speaker 2: That is part of the conversation we try to have
Speaker 2: with men, as you realize these kind of pressures that
Speaker 2: feel outrageous on you as men, how do you think
Speaker 2: women have felt about it, and how might we both
Speaker 2: step into getting beyond them or choosing the ones that
Speaker 2: we like. There's no reason we can't hang on to
Speaker 2: some of the stereotypes that we find fun and interesting,
Speaker 2: but let's get beyond the ones that seem to get
Speaker 2: in the way of us being the humans that we want.
Speaker 1: To be Do you think it's realistic in partnership to
Speaker 1: have those conversations out loud?
Speaker 2: You know, it depends on the day of the week,
Speaker 2: depends on whether after you're t hours of work and
Speaker 2: trying to figure out who is putting food on the
Speaker 2: table and who's doing this, like do we have g
Speaker 2: to be generous? And but I think humor goes a
Speaker 2: long way. Yeah, opening up like to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I never knew you felt that way. And it also helps,
Speaker 2: I think talking to friends about it as well, so
Speaker 2: that we don't think our partner has to resolve all
Speaker 2: of it for us. I think that's something that men
Speaker 2: will do a lot is let me tell you what
Speaker 2: I'm feeling and you have to work it out for me.
Speaker 2: That's another complaint I hear about women, and I would say,
Speaker 2: probably myself, I've done that along the way of just
Speaker 2: I'll tell you how I feel, but then the lift
Speaker 2: of okay, thank you for sharing that, what are you
Speaker 2: going to do with that? And I'm kind of looking
Speaker 2: back at, you know, my partner or a previous partner going,
Speaker 2: I don't know, help me with that. I think that's
Speaker 2: where we have to help men quite a bit. Of like, good,
Speaker 2: you figured out how to express it. It's not her
Speaker 2: job in a heterosexual relationship for her to fix that
Speaker 2: for you or figure out what happens next, just because
Speaker 2: you figure how to express it. Sharing on that and
Speaker 2: I've heard it myself of thank you, but that's not
Speaker 2: my job.
Speaker 1: And you know, some of it feels unfair because yes,
Speaker 1: it's not your job. But when you're in partnership and
Speaker 1: you love somebody, you do things that are not your job,
Speaker 1: you know, And that's okay. I think it's just there's
Speaker 1: a point at which I think women start to combust
Speaker 1: and say I'm exhausted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've been doing the emotional labor part. I mean,
Speaker 2: we talk about the mental load, but the emotional part
Speaker 2: is a heavy part that you know, lots of heterosexual
Speaker 2: guys kind of thing. Yeah, it's on her.
Speaker 1: You actually just got to what I'm so curious about.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the biological aspect of this. It's
Speaker 1: the part no one wants to talk about. I'm going
Speaker 1: to tell you a very quick story. When I was
Speaker 1: in high school, I was on vacation with my family.
Speaker 1: I have a younger brother, he's two years younger than me,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to put him on blast, but
Speaker 1: he did something that I thought was so outrageous and egregious.
Speaker 1: I'd never been more upset. And he was sleeping, and
Speaker 1: I went to my parents, and I was such a
Speaker 1: tattle tale. I told them what happened, and my mom
Speaker 1: was horrified and my dad started laughing, and I felt
Speaker 1: so betrayed by my father for laughing. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: told him that, and he said, I don't ever want
Speaker 1: you to feel that way, but what you don't understand
Speaker 1: is what it's like to have testosterone pumping through your veins,
Speaker 1: and you will never understand that. And at the time
Speaker 1: I was very angry, and now that I'm thirty five,
Speaker 1: I kind of understand what he meant with that context
Speaker 1: or framing. Are you comfortable talking about absolutely?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean part of what we talk a huge
Speaker 2: amount is about male sexuality and means sex drive, and
Speaker 2: you know, just there's no way not to talk about
Speaker 2: this stuff without also thinking and talking a lot about
Speaker 2: men's sexuality. So yeah, where do we go with that?
Speaker 2: We are obviously biological beings, and during adolescents, at different
Speaker 2: stages male and female intersex, we have sexual urges that
Speaker 2: are pulsing in a different way than they often do
Speaker 2: in other times of our life. What we do about it?
Speaker 2: You know, I think we have to not sort of
Speaker 2: put oh, that's just you know, raging hormones sort of
Speaker 2: suggests that we don't have agency to say, actually, I
Speaker 2: have this big frontal cortex that lets me think about
Speaker 2: where things go.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Okay, we developed that later as men right to be
Speaker 2: able to weigh outcomes, but it is still there. So
Speaker 2: I think we do want to lean in with generosity.
Speaker 2: And I think to your dad's comment, I would add
Speaker 2: the corollary adolescent girls experience huge sex drives as well,
Speaker 2: we just don't laugh about them nearly as much. You know,
Speaker 2: look at the new Weathering Heights movie with a female
Speaker 2: masturbation scene that usually don't show up in very many films.
Speaker 2: Boys all the time, but you know, a female masturbation
Speaker 2: scene leads to huge giggling when it happens outside of
Speaker 2: a porn film. Right, So one is to acknowledge, yes,
Speaker 2: we have these and girls have that too. Who was
Speaker 2: allowed to talk about that? The other part is, let's
Speaker 2: not give all that credit to testosterone. Right, there's what's permitted.
Speaker 2: I don't know what happens. So I don't know whether
Speaker 2: your dad laugh was actually used to diffuse a situation
Speaker 2: or really inappropriate, but sometimes you know, both of those
Speaker 2: things happen. Like we can just say boys will be
Speaker 2: boys instead of saying, hey, maybe this is not okay,
Speaker 2: and here's why. Let's not make it into a big
Speaker 2: repression moment, but let's talk through the why. You know.
Speaker 2: I think we often give a lot of credens at testosterone.
Speaker 2: The other part about the male body is that we're
Speaker 2: also wired to have the same things that happen different level.
Speaker 2: We don't have uterses, we don't breastfeed, but the same
Speaker 2: hormonal changes happen when we're in close contact with babies.
Speaker 2: This happened to women's bodies. We're also wired to experience oxytocin.
Speaker 2: We bond physically with young children, regardless of whether it's
Speaker 2: our biological child. If we're in close contact with a child,
Speaker 2: the kangaroo touch, the skin on skin touch. These studies
Speaker 2: have been done with gay fathers who aren't biologically connected,
Speaker 2: of men of all ages. Thirteen year old boys smelling
Speaker 2: a baby's head also have a decrease in testosterone, so
Speaker 2: we're very reactive to a world that says, do we
Speaker 2: just throw you into, you know, vilent, aggressive spaces and
Speaker 2: let it all happen. Do we just bombard your brain
Speaker 2: with porn or do we also offer opportunities where you
Speaker 2: practice care because our male bodies also respond to that.
Speaker 2: So I think that's the part of like, let me
Speaker 2: talk about your body, guy, Yeah, this happens. But also
Speaker 2: you don't know that this part often happens too.
Speaker 1: So is there a place in the world where people
Speaker 1: are raising young men differently that you could point to
Speaker 1: and say they're doing a good job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I want to point to
Speaker 2: a place. There's a lot of households that are doing
Speaker 2: a great job. There is a generation of parents who
Speaker 2: are really concerned about their sons and their daughters. I mean,
Speaker 2: you could point to the Scandinavian countries where they push
Speaker 2: for gender equality for a lot longer, They've had paternity
Speaker 2: leave for a lot longer. There's a normality of men
Speaker 2: doing hands on care of young babies that's been there
Speaker 2: twenty years before. It's been in other parts of the world.
Speaker 2: So there's some stuff they do well. But I don't
Speaker 2: want to hold up any countries like you've figured it out.
Speaker 2: Western Europe has figured out like sexuality education with a
Speaker 2: lot less craziness and repression. They do that quite well.
Speaker 2: But I also hear from parents there of like we're
Speaker 2: really confused of what to do with our sons. I
Speaker 2: think it's more, you know, parents who are attuned listening,
Speaker 2: modeling will deal with those uncomfortable moments like with your brother,
Speaker 2: make a conversation about it, not just you know, brush
Speaker 2: it aside. Dads who are willing to get emotionally open
Speaker 2: with their sons and their daughters. I guess I don't
Speaker 2: want to make it like there's some we don't have
Speaker 2: that magic sauce. It definitely helps if others around you
Speaker 2: were talking about this in open, honest ways. It helps
Speaker 2: if you don't have politicians that are belittling feminism and
Speaker 2: women's full empowerment, and that are belittling any form of
Speaker 2: manhood that isn't about blowing shit up.
Speaker 1: Well, actually, to your point, do you see any really
Speaker 1: positive examples of modern masculinity in pop culture? Oh Man
Speaker 1: or anything? The Pit?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do you watch The Pit? No?
Speaker 1: But I love the whole cast Thanks.
Speaker 2: To my daughter who said, Dad, you have to watch
Speaker 2: this it's a really great masculinity show. It really is
Speaker 2: well done. Cool of carrying men in caring professions and
Speaker 2: then the lead er doctor they call them doctor Robbie
Speaker 2: on the show, really thoughtful. So yes, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of the negative ones that make a lot of noise,
Speaker 2: but that's one that I'm kind of binging at the moment.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I don't want to
Speaker 1: get you in trouble because this is side a hot
Speaker 1: water question, but I am really curious what responsibility, if any,
Speaker 1: do women have in helping to reshape masculinity.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're part of it. I don't
Speaker 2: want to say that women have responsibility for it. You've
Speaker 2: been picking up, you know, our mess as men for centuries.
Speaker 2: But it definitely is going to go a lot better
Speaker 2: if we figure it out together. The load has been
Speaker 2: on women for lots and lots of stuff, but you know,
Speaker 2: we're not very good when we go off ourselves and
Speaker 2: say we're going to figure this out.
Speaker 1: I mean, what does together mean? Though?
Speaker 2: You know it's a tough conversation at the dinner table
Speaker 2: over Hey, I do need you to think about doing
Speaker 2: this or you know, your silence about this was a problem.
Speaker 2: Can you hear me on this? Yeah, and let's get
Speaker 2: through the discomfort. There's a part of our intimate life
Speaker 2: that's not quite going well for me, and I want
Speaker 2: to be able to tell you without you like going off.
Speaker 2: But I believe we can work it out. I mean,
Speaker 2: you could sell to your partner. Hey, I need you
Speaker 2: to go, you know, get some better education about your
Speaker 2: intimacy to help me be happy. But I think it's
Speaker 2: going to be a little better if we kind of
Speaker 2: figured it out together.
Speaker 1: Without becoming like the therapist in a man's life. Do
Speaker 1: you think that having hard conversations bringing up topics is
Speaker 1: really helpful?
Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, but again I think, man, we need to
Speaker 2: take some responsibility. Yes, we need you to bring it
Speaker 2: up to us, but we also need to raise sons
Speaker 2: to be self aware of Oh I should think of
Speaker 2: this ahead of time. Yeah, I should be thinking about
Speaker 2: this as well. I should be attuned to who does this?
Speaker 2: Does my voice reprit us hers thinking about, you know,
Speaker 2: what brings her sexual pleasure? There will be moments women
Speaker 2: will bring this up, and we need you to bring
Speaker 2: this stuff up. But I want men to be aware
Speaker 2: and thinking about those issues.
Speaker 1: On their own right to be a good conversation partner
Speaker 1: in this.
Speaker 2: And have thought about it before you came to that conversation.
Speaker 1: So I've thought about this topic so much because people
Speaker 1: will say, well, I like chivalry, and I kind of
Speaker 1: think of chivalry as human decency, so I don't even
Speaker 1: gender it anymore, Like to bring flowers to somebody's house
Speaker 1: is just a kind thing to do, whether you're a
Speaker 1: man or a woman. Where I think we are still
Speaker 1: confused is like who pays on the first date? How
Speaker 1: do you feel about that?
Speaker 2: About that? I hope that guys could get over that
Speaker 2: their self worth is based on whether they can pay
Speaker 2: for that, you know. I think there's an awkward and
Speaker 2: maybe fun discomfort of like both you know, might offer
Speaker 2: at the same time and like, no, how about I
Speaker 2: get this one and you get the next one. I
Speaker 2: really hope guys could get over a moment that they
Speaker 2: feel like I've got to pay, and that you would
Speaker 2: feel less than a man if she paid and you
Speaker 2: couldn't say, hey, I'm paying. It's not like you owe
Speaker 2: me anything for this. How can guys say it in
Speaker 2: a way that it's not a power struggle, It's not
Speaker 2: with any expectation and then to be generous enough if
Speaker 2: that's the right word, just like common sense enough to
Speaker 2: go and if she wants to pay, that's okay too,
Speaker 2: like okay, I'll accept and next time, if there's a
Speaker 2: next time, can I pay? How would you react if
Speaker 2: a guy did that in that first payment, says I'm
Speaker 2: fine for you to pay this, I'll pay next time.
Speaker 2: How about that?
Speaker 1: I've actually thought about this. I did something kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: I did a chivalry. I forgot what I called it.
Speaker 1: I did sort of like a cleanse at one point.
Speaker 1: I don't want to bore you, but I was in
Speaker 1: a relationship when I was like twenty five to twenty
Speaker 1: seven or eight, and he was Persian, and a lot
Speaker 1: of times in Persian culture, the roles are very traditional
Speaker 1: and defined, and it was my first big relationship, and
Speaker 1: so the roles were very traditional. And I grew up
Speaker 1: in a matriarchal house yep, for the most part. And
Speaker 1: he grew up, even though he had a single mom,
Speaker 1: in a very patriarchal house, and he paid for almost everything,
Speaker 1: including rent and dinners, Like I think I forgot where
Speaker 1: my wallet was for two years, and when we broke up,
Speaker 1: I said I'm never freaking doing that again, and I
Speaker 1: don't want to bore you with all the reasons why.
Speaker 1: But after that I started going on dates, and no
Speaker 1: matter how I felt about the man, whether I liked
Speaker 1: him or didn't like him, I said I would like
Speaker 1: to pay, whether I knew I was going to see
Speaker 1: him again or not. And the way people reacted was
Speaker 1: really interesting. Some people were like, I can't let you
Speaker 1: do that. Some people said, oh, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: and then some people kind of reacted in the middle
Speaker 1: and they were like, well, I don't want to make
Speaker 1: you feel like you don't have to pay. I would
Speaker 1: like to pay, but I don't want to take away
Speaker 1: your power. And it was a good exercise for me.
Speaker 1: But now that I'm kind of over the hump of that,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm ready to be a full
Speaker 1: partner to somebody. And I think everyone has to make
Speaker 1: a personal decision, but I've garnered personally is I am
Speaker 1: a giver by nature and I really need somebody who
Speaker 1: protects my giving. And so I think on the first
Speaker 1: or second date, I would like the man to say
Speaker 1: I got this, and then if we move forward, I'm
Speaker 1: wanting to be a full partner. How do you feel
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 2: It's not really the important stuff in terms of whether
Speaker 2: you get along with somebody, except as a test. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're none of us are going broke in our first
Speaker 2: date usually, right. I mean, for some of you, a minute,
Speaker 2: it's a lot for him to put, you know, sixty
Speaker 2: dollars down on the table if you're in a different
Speaker 2: moment of like you're not full time working or whatever.
Speaker 2: But for most of us, it's not really the contest totally.
Speaker 1: So I guess I'll still go on a free date.
Speaker 2: You can go on a bike, yes, or you could both. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're doing a fifty to fifty or something, because I
Speaker 2: think we get along in relationships when there's a bit
Speaker 2: of fluidity, like sometimes I'll pay, sometimes you'll pay. Sometimes,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll date myself with a Bruce Springsteing song
Speaker 2: of like the one that's like if I fall behind,
Speaker 2: wait for me, if you fall behind and I'll wait
Speaker 2: for you. I mean, I think that's sort of the
Speaker 2: give and take of a relationship that's going to work.
Speaker 2: So I guess if you're doing a test for me,
Speaker 2: that one should be like, I mean, life just requires
Speaker 2: that we're flexible. And if you're trying to make a
Speaker 2: contest out of it, maybe that's the red flag, not
Speaker 2: the actual paying for it yourself, because.
Speaker 1: That's so nice scary. So maybe I'm trying to deduce
Speaker 1: something that actually doesn't need to be deduced.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I think I want to know
Speaker 2: if a potential partner is like flexible or not keeping score.
Speaker 2: There are moments we need to call it, like if
Speaker 2: I'm doing all this lifting or you're doing all the lifting,
Speaker 2: but if it's starting off with like a scorekeeping, maybe
Speaker 2: that's not the way that we want to.
Speaker 1: I have to hyphi. Okay, thanks for telling me about myself.
Speaker 2: I like that we're all figuring it out along the way.
Speaker 1: But that's yeah, no, I really appreciate that. I think
Speaker 1: you're right, Like who cares? Yeah, okay. So the economists
Speaker 1: reported in June that there are signs of a bias
Speaker 1: in favor of girls that is emerging worldwide. What does
Speaker 1: that mean for how are being socialized early on?
Speaker 2: We're getting better, but they're still doing, you know, more
Speaker 2: of the hands on care work. So if moms think
Speaker 2: about you know, raising a son, raising a daughter, feeling
Speaker 2: like okay, more of the care work, it's probably gonna
Speaker 2: fall in me. I hear lots of moms talk about
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I know how to raise a carrying
Speaker 2: boy in today's society. I hear a lot of that worry.
Speaker 2: I think fathers, we need to step up and be
Speaker 2: sort of in the room as well and go, hey,
Speaker 2: we're part of this too. We know what it's like
Speaker 2: to raise a strong, caring boy. We can do that.
Speaker 2: You know, if you look at adoption, that's been the
Speaker 2: issue forever, like folks want to adopt baby girls, they
Speaker 2: don't really want to adopt boys. And it does worry me, like,
Speaker 2: how can we look at, you know, baby boys and
Speaker 2: feel like I'm not looking at a potential violent human.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at this loving, caring person who can be
Speaker 2: that if I make the space for him to do that. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: it does worry me that we think boys are kind
Speaker 2: of wired to be bad.
Speaker 1: It worries me too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think when women have good men in their lives,
Speaker 1: whether it's a parent, a sibling, a romantic partner, you
Speaker 1: can put a face to it. It's harder. I think
Speaker 1: if you don't have an example of that.
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean it's got to be a dad, It can
Speaker 2: be a brother, can be a cousin, a a teacher.
Speaker 2: But I do think, yeah, we need to in some
Speaker 2: ways be able to see what does that look like?
Speaker 2: What is caring manhood? Respectful but also strong, strong in
Speaker 2: an emotional way, not just in a physical way. What
Speaker 2: does that look like? I think we need to see
Speaker 2: it and then also acknowledge that, you know, there's lots
Speaker 2: of kick ass moms who are raising sons who are
Speaker 2: thoughtful and caring. It is a problem that there's not
Speaker 2: enough male caregiving happening there. There's lots of others who
Speaker 2: are doing a fabulous job at that.
Speaker 1: Your father, Bob, sounds like he was a pretty great
Speaker 1: role mo for you. Is there something that you've picked
Speaker 1: up about how to be a man that he didn't
Speaker 1: teach you, Like something that you've picked up from pop culture,
Speaker 1: from friendship.
Speaker 2: He wasn't a man of a lot of emotional words.
Speaker 2: He was sort of quiet, strength, like it never doubted,
Speaker 2: like his moral compass and sort of knowing what to
Speaker 2: do in a moment. But talking through conflict. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'll give a lot of credit to my female partner
Speaker 2: of thirty two years three of just how to stay
Speaker 2: in an argument and still say, Okay, we're in this together. Still. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I would give her credit for that. It's
Speaker 2: not easy. Knowing how to argue well caringly, I think
Speaker 2: is really important for couples.
Speaker 1: It could be the thing, Yes, if you could put
Speaker 1: all your research aside for a second and just think
Speaker 1: about you and your own personal experience. What has been
Speaker 1: the loneliest part about being a man for you?
Speaker 2: I have been with a lot of thoughtful men along
Speaker 2: the way. I had a couple of health issues about
Speaker 2: ten years back. But also it wasn't lonely. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was just because we are biological bodies. And if
Speaker 2: you think this illness could lead to, you know, your
Speaker 2: early death, there's a moment like that that there's no
Speaker 2: way of not being like existential of this feels lonely,
Speaker 2: and some folks can talk about it and some can't.
Speaker 2: So I survived to cancer, I was fine and am fine.
Speaker 2: But yeah, being able to talk about that and find
Speaker 2: whether people could look you in the eye and talk
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: And hold it, yeah, that is a lonely experience.
Speaker 2: And recognizing that lots of people go through worse and
Speaker 2: so yeah, I don't know if it's as a man
Speaker 2: or just as a human of like we are biologically
Speaker 2: frail and grappling with that.
Speaker 1: Is there anything we haven't touched on that you think
Speaker 1: is important.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I didn't talk about my daughter. I
Speaker 2: could talk about her for a long time. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: if I think of other moments that kind of along
Speaker 2: my journey of you know, thinking about carrying fatherhood and
Speaker 2: being a man, was I was a part time state
Speaker 2: home dad when my daughter was born. I was doing
Speaker 2: a PhD in Chicago. My partner had the full time
Speaker 2: job that was at a clinic. She had to be
Speaker 2: there every day. It's like really a frightening but fun
Speaker 2: journey of being out of control, Like I can't control
Speaker 2: all the elements in the room here, and she's going
Speaker 2: to go and have needs that I can't really predict.
Speaker 2: And so my day and maybe the week and even
Speaker 2: a year was not anything what you plan to just
Speaker 2: like go with it. And now she's twenty eight, and
Speaker 2: so I think thinking about what moms talk about a
Speaker 2: lot of just this amazing relationship of you're still that
Speaker 2: tiny human to me who needs everything from me to
Speaker 2: survive in the world. To now this amazing smart out
Speaker 2: in the world, teaching me stuff, thought, provoking me, you know,
Speaker 2: pushing my politics or whatever, like, oh yeah, this is
Speaker 2: really cool. You've been a great teacher.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. She's been your teacher your.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, there's not a really good course
Speaker 2: on fatherhood. So if you learned it from your own parents,
Speaker 2: from other men around you, from your female partner who
Speaker 2: you're doing this together with, if you're in a heterosexual relationship,
Speaker 2: but there's a huge amount that just you learn it
Speaker 2: by doing, and you know your child has a huge
Speaker 2: role in Like you're off, dad, you don't know what
Speaker 2: the hell you're doing. If you're willing to be that
Speaker 2: sort of modest and humble about it, it's an amazing
Speaker 2: learning experience.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna do some rapid fire with you. What
Speaker 1: gives you hope about gen Z boys?
Speaker 2: You know they love their friends.
Speaker 1: In one sentence, what is modern masculinity at its best?
Speaker 2: Open, caring, connected, willing to admit that we're wrong, deeply loving.
Speaker 1: The most powerful thing a father can.
Speaker 2: Model humility saying I was wrong.
Speaker 1: What's the most powerful thing a mother can model to
Speaker 1: her son?
Speaker 2: Not having been a mother and I think about my
Speaker 2: own mother, just like the nurture, just like to feel
Speaker 2: my mom's power in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a policy change that would make a real difference
Speaker 1: in this Oh.
Speaker 2: Where do we start. Universally accessible parnal leave fully paid
Speaker 2: would go a long way. And workplaces that have to
Speaker 2: offer it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, A small daily habit that strengthens men's mental health.
Speaker 2: You know, when you're talking to your buddy and ask
Speaker 2: him how he is. Mean it and stay in the room.
Speaker 2: I mean, how's it really going? Tell me how it's
Speaker 2: really going.
Speaker 1: A book that changed your life, something you think everybody
Speaker 1: should read.
Speaker 2: I'll just give a shout out to one recent Sarah
Speaker 2: Hardy's book called Father Time, about how men are biologically
Speaker 2: wired to care. I think should be a handbook for
Speaker 2: men like you should know your body. This is the
Speaker 2: species that you're part of, evolved so that men are
Speaker 2: wired to care. Shout out to Sarah.
Speaker 1: The smartest decision you've ever made.
Speaker 2: Finding my current partner she found me, or staying in
Speaker 2: Brazil so that I could fall in love with her.
Speaker 1: One thing that every man should try once.
Speaker 2: Staying up all night to exhaustion with a child.
Speaker 1: Doctor Gary Barker, Thank you Gary, I know you don't
Speaker 1: like the doctor. Thank you. I really appreciate this. I
Speaker 1: know it's not an easy conversation to have.
Speaker 2: It's for having me. Thanks for asking those questions.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Okay, you know what time it is.
Speaker 1: Day is a good day, to have a good day.
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.
Speaker 2: Hm.