WEBVTT - Is This a Men’s Crisis—or a Human One? With Dr. Gary Barker 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:41.519 the conversation. It's time to question everything. Okay, you may 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.640 have taken a look at the title of the episode 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:48.199 today and thought, girl, what Because this show has always 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:53.559 centered around women's experiences, It's part of my mission. So 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.160 if you're wondering why are we focusing on men, here 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.600 is the reason. Aside from the fact that I've been 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.240 sort of obsessing over the idea of modern masculinity and 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.319 the crisis that everybody's talking about over the last few years, 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.600 I looked at the statistics about the state of modern 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.800 manhood and you're really shocking, and frankly, I think impossible 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.080 to ignore. There's data everywhere that draws a dire picture 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.399 of young men and boys grappling with emotional and economic 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.679 and cultural pressures. Here's a startling statistic. The CDC says 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.199 that the suicide rate among males in twenty twenty three 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.399 was approximately four times higher than the rate among females. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.600 Males make up fifty percent of the population, but nearly 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:44.600 eighty percent of suicides. Oh, that statistic breaks my heart. Man, woman, 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.440 non binary. I hate that people are feeling sad, like 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.800 that feeling deep pain right, And I doubt I'm telling 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.160 you something you don't already know, because the past few 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.440 years we've been bombarded with headlines about how men and 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:02.240 boys are languishing, falling behind, isolated, and lost. But I 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.200 feel what gets lost in those statistics is that we 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:10.679 are all feeling the consequences of this our workplaces, our relationships, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.400 and our families. So today's guest is doctor Gary Barker. 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.239 He's an international researcher who has spent decades studying men 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.079 and boys across cultures, and whose TED talk on masculinity 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.560 has reached millions. After witnessing a school shooting as a teenager, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.200 he really committed his entire career to the big questions 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.520 surrounding modern manhood. Here he is in his twenty twenty 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:38.280 four TED. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.519 Talk about forty to fifty percent of men in the 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.600 world believe in a version of manhood that goes like this, 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.720 I've got to outperform the other at all costs. I 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.480 can't show that I'm vulnerable or ask for help. That 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.760 sex is about conquests, not about intimacy and connection. These 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.760 are things that men talk about. They create realities. 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:02.600 Gary has spent his career having hard conversations, asking difficult 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.519 questions about what is actually going on with men, because 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.560 whether we like it or not, the state of men 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:10.960 is shaping the world women are trying to live in, 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.320 and at its core, that's what the feminist movement has 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.480 always been about, not just advancing women, but also creating 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.520 a world that is more equal, more humane, and more 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.400 free for everyone, Which means we can't fully understand women's 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:28.880 experiences without also understanding what's happening with men. So today 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.519 I wanted to invite Gary on the pod to tackle 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:35.240 some tough questions that I've been asking, that my friends 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.400 have been talking about, and I want to do it together. 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.520 A big one that we're circling today is what role 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.880 do women play in the modern day crisis of manhood? 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.400 And are we being asked to carry more of that 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.480 than we should. It's time to question everything with doctor 0:03:51.520 --> 0:04:01.600 Gary Barker. Gary, you've spent decades searching men and boys 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.000 across cultures, and this show has really always centered around 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:09.360 women's experiences. I think some people tuning in today might say, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.360 why are we discussing or centering men? I have my opinions, 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.040 but I want to ask you why is it important 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.720 for women to care about the state of men and 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.800 masculinity in the world right now? Yeah? 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:22.640 Where do we start with that one? Well, thanks for 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:24.920 having me given that caveat. I go to a lot 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.160 of spaces where there's kind of what's that guy doing here? 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.479 And why is he talking about this? I mean from 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.599 the simplest level, you know, when men are harmed, we 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.120 harm others, and women are often at the end of that. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.600 If we think about you love men, you live with men, 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.160 You've got to figure out what's up with us? We 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.000 love you, we live with you, We've got to figure 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.360 out what's up with you. The stuff that we care 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.120 about to help women be their full selves in the world, 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.320 whether it's workplaces, politics, do you get to have voice 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.480 in all the places you should have voice? It's typically 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.359 men who are in the way you're also This is 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.039 not to put the blame on women, but to say 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.359 you're also you know, sort of consumers and bridge users 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.039 of men. You also influence how we want to be 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:04.800 in the world. We look to you to say, are 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.960 we cool? Are we attractive? So we're in it together. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.440 There are definitely places where men want to talk amongst men, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.840 and women want to talk amongst women. But I do 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.320 think the messiness of making the world better for women 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.359 needs men and men need to be part of the 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.479 messiness of making the world better for women. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.400 Do you feel like men care about the state of 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.160 manhood and masculinity right now? 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.600 I mean, it's not something we're going to sit around 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.600 at the bar and say, hey, get me an ipa 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.480 and let's talk about what's up with men. It's not 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.640 like folks want to come and say, Gary, tell me 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.000 about your research on men and masculinities. It's in the water, 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.280 right It's what we're drinking. It's men's confusion. It's how 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.240 politicians and others are taking advantage of it. It's not 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.360 an easy conversation because part of the way manhood works 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:50.640 is you don't stop and talk about it. You just 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:52.400 get out there and do shit. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.000 I'm going to tell you something I learned from your 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.040 research and it's one of the reasons I care about 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.280 this topic. Yeah, you've stated that fifty percent of American 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:06.359 men have seriously contemplated suicide. That is so heartbreaking and 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.440 so alarming to me, and regardless of gender as a 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:10.800 human being, that hurts me. 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:12.839 And you know the number if we look at young 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.400 men eighteen to twenty five, it's about forty percent in 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.000 the last two weeks. I mean, you know, if we 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.279 look at CDC numbers and other folks who work in 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.440 mental health, the numbers tell us that young people are 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.360 feeling what is this planet we're on? I mean, there's 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.920 a lot of reasons to be anxious about life. There 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.480 is a crisis of loneliness. And one of the things 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.960 related to that is do I feel I've got purpose 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.200 and reason for being here. I think we're really worried 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.200 about with young men and men in general, is that 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.240 we don't ask for help. The overall suicide rates of 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.200 men compared to women attempt more men are two thirds 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.039 to three quarters of suicide depending on the country those 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.479 who carry it out, and so part of it is 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.359 because manhood doesn't allow you to say, I need help. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.400 I'm really on edge. I don't think my life has 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.200 much meaning. Those are words that are not very easy 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.960 for men to express, not that it's easy for women. 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.839 But there's more communication, there is more reaching out to friends, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.599 there is more kind of social acceptability of women asking 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.360 for help. So my colleagues and I, who carried out 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:15.400 that research, are very concerned about that. It doesn't surprise 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.880 mental health professionals. It doesn't surprise teachers often, which is 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.040 in it of itself, is a problem because we see 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.400 the crisis of loneliness and disconnection that so many young 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.360 men are facing. And again it's not that young women 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.520 are all what a wonderful world this is at the moment, necessarily, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.160 but there is more a sense of solidarity and I 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:34.720 can talk about it and reach out for help. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:39.320 I'm interested in the word you used, loneliness crisis, loneliness epidemic. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.800 I've often heard this called a crisis, the masculinity crisis. 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:45.520 Do you consider it a crisis? 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.560 Yes. The way we set up manhood in general, it's 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.880 like a walking crisis. Right. You're supposed to be the protector, 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.880 the provider. You're always ready to have sex. The list 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.360 is long of what you're supposed to do that none 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.000 of us really achieve it. Particularly in a capitalist economy 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:01.840 that has a lot of stuff for a few people 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:03.760 and not much for lots of others. You're sort of 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.160 set up for failure. So it's a crisis, you know, 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.440 as a permanent state. Add to that an economy that 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.560 feels unstable, a planet that's partly overheating and maybe on 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.400 fire in some places, a world that says, you know, 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:19.760 women can do all these things too, So we're not 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.520 quite sure what our role is. You've got, like the 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.240 crisis is catching even more momentum behind it, So yes, 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.560 I do think there's something called a crisis, something that's 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.560 already on shaking around. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.800 In twenty twenty three, you did a beautiful Ted talk 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.920 and you pointed to two instances that really led you 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.360 to this work. Will you share those with us? 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.640 Sure? One of those that I started in the Ted 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.000 talk was about US school shooting that I witnessed in 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.480 the late seventies in suburban Houston, Texas. Way back at 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.040 the beginning when the US started to talk about things 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.839 that we now call school shootings mass shootings. We now 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.319 have this vocabulary that's made them almost normal. Last time 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.160 I looked at the numbers, there's something like two hundred 0:08:58.160 --> 0:08:59.880 and fifty thousand of us in the US who have 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.400 witnessed or survived a shooting at our school. Crazy numbers. 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.520 And in that slow motion thing when traumatic things happen 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:09.000 in your life, as you look at that and say 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.200 what's going on? Later on able to look and say 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.800 it was a young man following the script about manhood 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:16.680 in front of the rest of us said, and I 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.240 don't share this lightly, it's tough stuff to talk about, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.280 stood up in front of about one hundred of us 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.120 and said, you stole my girlfriend and you're going to pay, 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.040 and he executed him in front of us. He wanted 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.760 it to be seen. He announced why he was doing it. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.439 Obviously there's lots of other reasons he was doing it, causes, 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:35.880 but it was, as has been in the last forty 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.200 plus years, mostly young men with weapons who are carrying 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.080 out these crimes. They are tragedies that we see forthcoming. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.640 So making sense of like how do we make manhood? 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.240 So we all knew the challenges that these two boys 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.800 had faced. Early on, teachers saw them, probably tried to 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.360 help family stuff, access to guns. The list is long, 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.360 but there's a script about manhood that was behind it. 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.120 It did not in that particular moment. It was a 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.400 lot of years in making sense of it and saying, 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.040 where do we go with this? How do we understand 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:06.440 how we make young men? 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:08.920 So great question though, because I think there's a lot 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.200 of directions experiencing something like that could take you, and 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.959 you ran towards research in this way, can you point 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:17.680 back to why? 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.400 Yeah? I mean, you know, the first part of my 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.440 career was working with survivors of violence, whether they were 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.320 refugee children in Central America, street youth and Colombia, young 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.440 men and favelas in Rio, young men and women in 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.440 other settings of high violence. I felt like I needed 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.920 to do this, and I think partly where I wanted 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.040 to look up stream was to say, we need to 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.000 do that. We must provide support to those who are 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.400 survivors of violence. But how do we look upstream if 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.679 we want to break the cycle? What is it that 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.400 leads men to do this? And part of my work 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.760 led me to work in favelas in Rio, which you 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.440 could think folks normally have ideas that, oh, these are 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.480 places of lots of violence, police violence, gang violence. All 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.040 that's true, but day to day you see more acts 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.920 of resistance to violence than you do violence. And so 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.280 looking at that, I said, how do we understand all 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.920 these young men in settings like this who don't go 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.920 on to use violence? So research for me was an 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.000 excuse to ask questions. Tell me about your life, how 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.600 has that gone? What helped you get through? Why didn't 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.640 you go this way the same way that your brother 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.080 or your peer did? So not research is like a cold, 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.240 you know, paper that sits on an academic website, but 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.000 a reason to engage in questions, to say, tell me 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:28.680 your story. I'll tell you a bit of mine. Could 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.880 I understand from there how we make nonviolence? That's really 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:33.199 been my research question. 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.960 What do you understand about yourself now that you didn't 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.680 see in yourself? Then it took me a. 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.760 Lot of years to use feeling words about what happened. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:44.920 Because would you intellectualize it? 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.720 Yeah? Of course, And you talk about what happened, not 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.920 how I felt about what happened? Right, it was this incident, right, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.160 So you I do that too. Yeah, it's what we 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.560 need to from you know, traumatic events, difficult events to 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.320 make sense of what was the stuff that happened, So 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.600 let me think through the actions, but then to stop 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.520 and say how did I feel about that? How did 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:05.160 this affect me? 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.000 Well, it hurts. That's when you start trying. 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.600 And we're not supposed to do that. And you could 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.719 also tell that lots of people around you, because of 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:15.160 their deep discomfort, they didn't want to deal with you 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.319 feeling traumatic about it because teachers, you know, kind of 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.480 felt they were responsible for keeping you safe. My parents 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:23.520 had lots of difficulty with it as well, because it's 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.560 really tough now that I'm a parent looking and going, damn, 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.840 I feel responsible for everything that happens to her and 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:30.520 I couldn't be there to protect you. So I can 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.240 understand that deep discomfort. And then most of the day 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.840 we walk around acting like it's all okay, So you 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.920 talk about what happened, not the feeling part. So I 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.439 think that was sort of years later that someone asked 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.679 me what did you feel about what happened that day? 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.120 And then you could just sort of let it all 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.079 go of, like, oh, yeah, what did you feel? Fear, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.520 deep sadness, anger at the part that this should not 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.679 have happened, Lots of things could have been done upstream helpless, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.400 which is not really easy for men that were so 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.640 conditioned to say we can do something like that. There 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.320 was nothing we could do to make it better. There 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.199 are folks who work in military and police, etc. Who 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.120 have seen lots of folks be killed. But I think 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.959 you must feel tragedy and deep harm when you see 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.920 another human being's life taken far earlier than it should 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.800 have been, and you know the pain both for the 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.440 young man who killed the other as well as the 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:24.240 one who was killed. 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.320 I'm sitting across from you thinking I wonder who you 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.000 would have been had that incident not occurred, which is 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.400 maybe a useless question, but it's just so wild to 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.480 me how that incident really changed the whole course of 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:37.839 your life. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.560 Yeah, I mean there were other pieces that were there. 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.640 My father was a social worker. He passed about three 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.120 years ago. My siblings were adopted. We had foster children 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.960 throughout my childhood, and all the stories or all the 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.040 reasons that children ended up in needing out of home 0:13:55.040 --> 0:14:00.760 care was mostly about men, violence, neglect, harm that men caused. 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.960 My moving to work with people who are affected by 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.720 trauma and violence and asking that deeper question I think 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:11.160 was definitely provoked by witnessing that shooting. The belief that 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.600 there were other ways of thinking about manhood and other 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.800 versions of manhood that were not violent, was definitely planted, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.640 you know, with my dad and his deep ethic and 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:21.840 political cause of care. 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:23.600 How beautiful to have had that. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:24.680 He's a cool guy. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.760 So in all the conversations that you're having, in all 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.840 the rooms you're in talking about masculinity, is there something 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.840 that you feel like is actually missing from the conversation. 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:34.720 A lot of things. 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.800 I mean, I think, well, like that's the conversation I 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.120 want to have with you today, aiming so you. 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.000 Know you asked before about the crisis. Yes there's a crisis. 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.720 Yes we've got suicide and loneliness. But I think more 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.840 focus on the solutions that are in plain sight. And 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.320 I think we spent a lot of time talking about 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.720 how to pick up the pieces of men who have 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.960 been harmed, in men who cause harm. How do we 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.200 flip into what is it that you know, phils men's heart? 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.800 What is it that really we're passionate about that we 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.320 care about who and what do we love? Because so 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.080 many of the conversations have been around what men are 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.840 not doing the portion of care work that we're not doing. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.760 A family that we're not supporting, the violence that we 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.160 carried out, the mental health services that we're not seeking. Yes, 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:18.840 we got to look at all the problems, but it 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.160 feels like the solution's part of it. I think what 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.040 I find missing in the room a lot is to 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:28.720 see men as caring, feeling fully warm blooded human beings 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.440 who give a damn about things that are beyond you know, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.240 sports and other things that we can give a damn 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.120 about those two, But often a lot of our energy 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.560 seems to be at superficial stuff and we don't talk 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:40.520 about the deeper stuff. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.400 What are men talking about in rooms that they don't 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.800 say out loud with women in the room. 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.040 Depends on who starts a conversation a lot of times, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.720 but if we can get down to, you know, feeling honest, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:58.680 it's confusion. So I'm father of a daughter and you know, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.400 raise partly in Brazil, partly in the US, and there 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.680 were all these whatever you want to call them, scripts, ideas, stories, 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.600 heroines to point or two that said you can be anything, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.400 And I don't think we've had a similar space for 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.320 men to say it's not as easy. It's not the 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.120 same as what it was for our dads and for 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.480 our grandfathers, and you know, a generation or half generation earlier. 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:21.880 You don't think that men feel like this is like 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.960 a very sort of obvious example. But like, we haven't 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.760 had a female president. So the idea of like you 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.840 can't be what you can't see, I think people point 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.720 to that. I think men have been in almost every space. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.840 So help me understand what you mean more deeply. 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.840 So flip that around. We've never had you know, a 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.200 first gentleman, right of like, what is it like to 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.120 be the man who supports his partner interesting in a 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.600 heterosexual relationship to be the president of the most powerful 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.600 country in the world. Right, So, I think that's part 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.480 of the flip side. Where do we hold you up 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:53.400 for being a stay at home dad? Where do we 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.600 give you, you know, sort of lessons of how to 0:16:55.640 --> 0:17:01.040 be a fully emotionally resilient and resident human being. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.560 Right, So you're saying in sort of these new roles 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.720 that weren't Yeah, that makes a lot of Yeah. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.480 I don't mean no, we don't need more. Yes, it's 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.919 always good to have, you know, some role models as 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.600 engineers and rocket scientists. There's enough men in that space, 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.399 but yeah, in the space that says women can be 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.520 there too. And if men used to think my unique 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.480 role is to be this provider, protector, et cetera. If 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:22.920 you want to go on that list, what about the 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:24.840 other stuff? Because women can do all those things, what 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.119 have we told men about? What else can you be besides? 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.399 Am I only just the money that I earned? And 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.359 after that, I feel, yeah, there's a huge sense of 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.080 economic uncertainty. The jobs that kind of used to feel 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.080 like mostly men's jobs are either not there or now 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.359 you're competing with the whole world, not just men, for 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.479 those other jobs. And then second, you know, guys will 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.639 start talking about relationship confusion. What is it to be 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:51.040 in relationships these days? 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.040 I experience that I'm whole. 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.320 New rules, I'm you know, I'm in a committed relationship 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:57.760 for a long time. So I listened to this. You know, 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.520 it's not like just in one moment you're like, oh, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.000 I got it, figured it out. But I think there's 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.119 a lot of confusion in these days of how do 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.960 we hook up? Who does what, who proposes what, and 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:08.800 all the rest. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.080 I want to touch on something that you just shared, 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.360 because I think some men are told that they benefit 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:18.400 from the patriarchy, but they're struggling financially or in industries 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.679 where they lose out on jobs because they are a 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.679 white man, and then they get blamed for systems like 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.160 the Me Too era where all men I think were 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.000 basically told they were bad. Right, and it's more nuanced 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.639 than that, But the men I speak to often say like, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.719 I didn't create those systems, and I'm being held accountable 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.439 for those systems. And at the same time, all of 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.840 this change is necessary. How do you wrap your head 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:44.200 around all of that? 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.280 That is sort of what we're asking men these days 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.480 to think about. Right, I need to be responsible for 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.760 a world that treats women fairly and that women are safe, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:56.040 not harassed, not subject to assault of multiple kinds. Men 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.159 need to be allies for that. And yet at the 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.120 same time, how do we say it is not all men? 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.359 But how do I say I'm responsible for what I 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.840 do in reaction to other men? So how do we 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.720 get men to feel like, be responsible for the part 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.200 that you should be responsible for while affirming that most 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.480 men are not harassing or assaulting you know, we talk 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.119 about it as calling in and calling out. We do 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.320 need to call it men when they cause harm, but 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.399 I think we have to ask how did we do 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.040 it and how do we do it? In terms of 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.600 me Too, our approach has typically been he caused harm, 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.119 get him out of the room. I don't want to 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.200 see him again, as opposed to you know, say somebody 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.919 in your family who causes harm, They're still part of 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.720 your family. These are still our brothers and fathers and workmates. 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.480