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Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and

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Speaker 1: Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. I got to say, staying

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Speaker 1: update on what's going on in the world, it can

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Speaker 1: be pretty difficult right now, and the narrative can change

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. I mean, it's an environment where a soft

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Speaker 1: landing has quickly dissolved into well maybe not or maybe

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Speaker 1: even a US recession or as we just heard with

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Speaker 1: David Weston, who talked with former US Treasury and Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Week contributor Larry Summers. He talked about the energizer

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Speaker 1: bunny for the US economy. It's how he described it,

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Speaker 1: especially after that strong non forim payrolls print bottom line.

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Speaker 1: A lot coming at US companies, global companies and their leaders.

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Speaker 1: We have a great guest to kind of give us

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Speaker 1: some perspective and what can help leaders in this type

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Speaker 1: of environment. We talked with her about three years ago

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Speaker 1: about her then latest book Oncommon Service, joining us once

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Speaker 1: again as Francis Fry, Professor of Technology and Operations Management

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Speaker 1: at Harvard Business School. Her new book out, Move Fast

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Speaker 1: and Fix Things. The Trusted Leader's Guide to Solve the

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Speaker 1: Hard Problems. She co authored with Anne Morris. The two

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Speaker 1: also co host the ted podcast Fixable. She's joining us

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Speaker 1: on Zoom from Boston, Massachusetts. Francis so nice to have

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Speaker 1: you back here on Bloomberg, and we do like to

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Speaker 1: remind our viewers and listeners. You also worked at Uber

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Speaker 1: back in twenty seventeen, your senior VP for Leadership and Strategy,

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Speaker 1: and worked on improving the company's culture by really working

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Speaker 1: with them when it comes to teamwork. I want to

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Speaker 1: start big broad if I may, and that is the world,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like the world is this great global

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Speaker 1: classroom right now. What fascinates you in terms of whether

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Speaker 1: it's Washington, whether it's corporate America, global companies when it

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Speaker 1: comes to thinking about how things are getting done or

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Speaker 1: not getting done.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks, Carolyn, Jess, I really appreciate being here. So

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Speaker 2: what fascinates me is that how much we're in our

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Speaker 2: own way. And I actually find that incredibly optimistic because

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Speaker 2: we can get out of our own way. So it's

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Speaker 2: not that externalities are forcing us to behave one way,

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Speaker 2: but that we're either recklessly moving too fast or out

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Speaker 2: of fear we're staying still for too long, and so

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Speaker 2: our finding the balance of how to move fast and

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Speaker 2: fix things. To me, is a really optimistic view of

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Speaker 2: the world. Why do you.

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Speaker 3: Think the trade off between speed and excellence is false?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that when when Mark Zuckerberg said move

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Speaker 2: fast and break things, he convinced people, perhaps unknowingly, that

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Speaker 2: you could either move fast and break things or you

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Speaker 2: could go slow and take care of things. So he

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Speaker 2: presented that you can either take care of people or

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Speaker 2: go fast. But we have found that you can actually

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Speaker 2: go even faster in accelerating excellence if you build trust

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Speaker 2: along the way.

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Speaker 1: So when you say trust, is it all kinds of

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Speaker 1: trust with your employees, your workforce, with your customers, your suppliers.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. I talked with the founder and see of Chabani,

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Speaker 1: and you know how he thinks of sustainable business. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm with you. When he thinks about sustainable business,

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Speaker 1: it's for his employees, it's for his customer, a surrounding community.

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Speaker 1: So come on in on this. When you think about

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Speaker 1: when you talk about trust, what it means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think that it's important to think

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Speaker 2: about it for all of those stakeholders. And so what

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Speaker 2: we find is that whatever problem you're facing, and we

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Speaker 2: encourage people to go after their hardest problem. So whatever

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Speaker 2: the hardest thing you have to do right now, you're

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Speaker 2: going to find that trust is broken down with at

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Speaker 2: least one of those stakeholders. And if you build that

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Speaker 2: trust first and then you go fast on top of it,

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Speaker 2: h you can accelerate excellence. The mistake we find people

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Speaker 2: make is that they go fast before building the trust,

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Speaker 2: and then very bad things can happen.

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Speaker 3: Walk us through some of the five essential steps that

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Speaker 3: you talk about as far as moving fast and fixing things.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and we organize it by day of the week

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Speaker 2: with only a half joke that you can solve any

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Speaker 2: hard problem in a week. But Monday is to solve

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Speaker 2: the real problem, which is most problems present as one thing,

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Speaker 2: but then the root cause is somewhere else. So make

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Speaker 2: sure that you're going not addressing the symptom, but actually

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Speaker 2: getting all the way down to the cause. Tuesday it's

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Speaker 2: to build a good enough plan by solving for trust

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Speaker 2: at the at the core of it. Wednesday we call

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Speaker 2: it make new Friends Day, and that is whatever your

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Speaker 2: plan is, you've probably talked to too many people who

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Speaker 2: are just like you. So on Wednesday we encourage you

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Speaker 2: to very deliberately make new friends. And the new friends

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Speaker 2: of the type that think differently, see differently, have a

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Speaker 2: different set of skills. So be inclusive of loads of

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Speaker 2: more diverse perspectives. Your plan will become an even better plan.

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Speaker 2: Is it by Thursday?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Go ahead?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, forgive me?

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Speaker 3: No? Keep?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, finish up?

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Speaker 2: Okay? All right? So Thursday it is a chance to

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Speaker 2: communicate it. And so we have very specific ideas of

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Speaker 2: how to communicate well, which the short version is, understand

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Speaker 2: something so deeply that you can describe it simply, and

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Speaker 2: simply deeply communication is the is the key. And then Friday,

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Speaker 2: go as fast as you can. But please, Friday is

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Speaker 2: day five, It's not days one through four.

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Speaker 1: You know, why did you write this book now or

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Speaker 1: why did you want to put it out now? Was

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Speaker 1: there something that you saw kind of in real life?

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Speaker 1: You do case studies at Harvard. I'm just curious what

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 2: You know, we saw too much what we call responsible stewardship.

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Speaker 2: We saw too many people being paralyzed in the presence

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Speaker 2: of real problems. There was paralysis and when we investigated

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Speaker 2: why are people not moving, it was because they were

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Speaker 2: afraid of the reckless disruption of the moving fast and

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Speaker 2: breaking things. So we did this to provide the roadmap,

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Speaker 2: and it's a playbook. I mean, it tells you exactly

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Speaker 2: how to do it. The roadmap so to get out

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Speaker 2: of the paralysis to solve our world's most urgent challenges.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I wonder you know, in a week where we've

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Speaker 1: been obsessed with the fraud trial of Samuel bankmin Freed

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Speaker 1: and FTX, there's somebody who moved fast, right, and certainly

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Speaker 1: something's got broken, very reckless, right. So I mean when

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Speaker 1: you look at that story, that case, that reality, and

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Speaker 1: of course only charges will see where this trial ends up.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, how do you look at it or

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Speaker 1: how is it a teaching moment?

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Speaker 2: Well, for me, it's that it looked like sam didn't

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Speaker 2: really believe he had to build trust with multiple constituents, right,

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Speaker 2: that he he did what he wanted to do and

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Speaker 2: it didn't matter. It didn't matter to him because he

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Speaker 2: was being lavished so much monetarily. So to me like

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Speaker 2: solving the real problem. Probably the real problem was that

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Speaker 2: he was building something that maybe didn't make sense and

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Speaker 2: then solving for trust at the core of that. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it was fraud or not, but

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Speaker 2: I would It looks to me like he moved very

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Speaker 2: fast in the absence of trust, and that's a very

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Speaker 2: classic problem.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of trust, Frances, it was so quick for the

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Speaker 1: world media investors, big name investors, smart people to quickly

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Speaker 1: mark him, brand him, you know, the JP Morgan of crypto,

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Speaker 1: and believe that he was the go to voice on

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Speaker 1: everything in any crypto. You know, how do you think

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Speaker 1: about that as well? I mean, you know, for me once,

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Speaker 1: shame on you for me twice, like you know, they're always.

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Speaker 2: Probably more than twice. Yeah, yeah, what is that about?

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Speaker 2: You know? My positives been on It is that we

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Speaker 2: are all like it taps into our optimism that there

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Speaker 2: is a like, dramatically better way and that it will

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Speaker 2: be individuals that bring us there. The pessimistic side of

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Speaker 2: me thinks that we're just looking to get in before

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Speaker 2: everyone else catches on. So we want early money to

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Speaker 2: be benefited, regardless of how it turns out. But it

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Speaker 2: is we are in quite a cycle of believing things

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Speaker 2: very early without applying the rigor that we show. We

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Speaker 2: are a very rigorous people, but we are willing to

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Speaker 2: suspend that in an increasing frequency.

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Speaker 3: We have about a minute left in this segment. But

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Speaker 3: what are some examples of leaders who use speed to

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Speaker 3: their advantage to solve their problems? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say Microsoft is my favorite current example.

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Speaker 2: And this is an organization that is so big it

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Speaker 2: should be able to move fast and yeah, and yet

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Speaker 2: look how it has catapulted everyone in the field of AI.

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Speaker 2: And that's just its latest marvel that it's been able

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Speaker 2: to do. And they're getting there. They build trust with

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Speaker 2: all of their stakeholder if they communicate beautifully, they make

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Speaker 2: loads of new friends. So I would say that they

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Speaker 2: are a role model of doing it.

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Speaker 3: Well, we're continuing our conversation with friends. Is Fry, professor

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Speaker 3: of Technology and Operations Management at Harvard Business School, on

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Speaker 3: her book Move Fast and Fix Things, The Trusted Leader's

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Speaker 3: Guide to Solving Hard Problems that she co authored with

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Speaker 3: Anne Morris. The two also co host a tied podcast

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Speaker 3: called Fixable. So she's still joining us on zoom from Boston, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 3: You were just speaking with us and talking with us

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Speaker 3: about the five essential steps to moving fast and fixing

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Speaker 3: things for corporate leaders. I'm curious about how challenging is

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Speaker 3: it for executives to successfully create a culture where everyone

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Speaker 3: can thrive and try to prevent top talent from leaving.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's within our capacity. I find that we're

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Speaker 2: not all born with knowing how to do it, and

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Speaker 2: so we try to provide secret memos in the book

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Speaker 2: of here's how to do it. But the prescription we

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Speaker 2: would give for how to do it is that you

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Speaker 2: have to create an environment where, regardless of any difference

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Speaker 2: that any of us represents, our job is to make

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Speaker 2: one another feel safe and welcome. And then, because of

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Speaker 2: our unique skills, and I think this is really important,

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Speaker 2: because of our uniqueness, we should celebrate and champion one another.

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Speaker 2: When we do that, Oh, your top talent will stay.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that got my attention because I'm

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Speaker 1: always thinking about this is run better meetings. You have

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Speaker 1: a little notation in your book about it, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like the art of running a good meeting. I

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Speaker 1: will tell you here, we've had conference rooms that don't

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Speaker 1: have chairs in them at times because to make it

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Speaker 1: go quickly, or are reducing like not everybody needs to

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Speaker 1: be here, it's only some you know. So what's your

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Speaker 1: thinking on that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, meeting?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like where we were having tons of zoom meetings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So first I would say that every meeting has

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Speaker 2: to be have an agenda. If it doesn't have an agenda,

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Speaker 2: you should take that as an invitation not to attend.

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Speaker 2: That's the first thing. The second thing is that whatever

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Speaker 2: the objectives are of the meeting, don't put time stamps

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Speaker 2: next to them. Don't say, oh, this and we'll do

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Speaker 2: for the first third, then the next third and the next third,

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Speaker 2: because we will fill the allotted time. So let us

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Speaker 2: be done when we're done, like, let us be achievement oriented.

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Speaker 2: The third thing is I do think it's useful to

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Speaker 2: not invite as many people, but you don't want people

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Speaker 2: to feel left out. So I encourage people to tape

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Speaker 2: meetings and encourage people to watch it on two x

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Speaker 2: the speed because that's just about the right speed to

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Speaker 2: do it. That automatically saves half of your time in meetings.

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Speaker 2: And indeed, I would encourage you to go for a

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Speaker 2: walk while you're listening to the meeting. It's a very

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Speaker 2: intimate way to consume it. And then my last tip

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Speaker 2: is if we're not careful, what will happen in a

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Speaker 2: meeting is you'll say something, then I'll say something similar,

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Speaker 2: and someone else says something similar and similar, and then

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Speaker 2: we all just want to like it. We're just done. Instead,

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Speaker 2: after you say something, the facilitator should say the following phrase.

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Speaker 2: Can someone articulate an alternate point of view? I've now

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Speaker 2: just sent the message, no more redundancy. Now somebody else

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Speaker 2: is going to say something different, and then one more

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Speaker 2: point of difference. So if we diverge early, we'll converge

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Speaker 2: higher and faster. The problem is, most meetings converge early

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Speaker 2: have loads of redundancy, and we don't actually end up

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Speaker 2: accomplishing very much.

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Speaker 1: I love that idea of diverging.

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Speaker 3: How has working from home because of the pandemic ended

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Speaker 3: up affecting leader's ability to try to solve some of

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Speaker 3: these problems when you have a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: barrier if not everybody is in the office with you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I find that having the ability to be

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Speaker 2: remote like we are right now, or to be in

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Speaker 2: person is better than hiving to either only be remote

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Speaker 2: or only be in person. So I think hybrid dominates

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Speaker 2: the other two and that we should figure out when

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Speaker 2: to use each one. But we want to optimize how

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Speaker 2: we use each one. So people tell me that in

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Speaker 2: Zoom meetings they worry that it doesn't have as much caricatures,

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Speaker 2: have as much character as in person. I'm like, but

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Speaker 2: in Zoom we have chat, we can courage one another,

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Speaker 2: we can share thoughts, we can use those beautiful emojis

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Speaker 2: that float around in between. So there's many more degrees

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Speaker 2: of dimensionality in Zoom that we just don't often take

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Speaker 2: advantage of. So I encourage people to just as much

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Speaker 2: as you think about how to meet in person, think

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Speaker 2: about how to meet remotely, and I think some beautiful

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Speaker 2: things will happen.

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Speaker 1: You work with a lot of companies, you write case studies.

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Speaker 1: Are there companies you look at and you're like, God,

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Speaker 1: I just would like a week with them?

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, So Chabani, who you have on the previous one,

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Speaker 2: like longtime fan, longtime fan of them. I'm also I

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Speaker 2: like hypergrowth, and so I think the company's stripe has

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Speaker 2: done remarkable things in a very short period of time

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Speaker 2: and maintained the dignity of its workforce along the way.

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Speaker 2: So I like them as well. And then for outside

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Speaker 2: of the US, there is a company in Peru called

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Speaker 2: a Noova Schools. It's the best educated education model I

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Speaker 2: have ever seen anywhere in the world, and they designed

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Speaker 2: a system where people in the emerging middle class they

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Speaker 2: educate them in dramatically awesome ways for a very low fee,

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Speaker 2: and it's for profit. So they've learned how to do

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Speaker 2: this in a way that can be scalable to other countries.

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Speaker 2: So that's where I go for inspiration.

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Speaker 3: Love that, what does inclusiveness mean to you?

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Speaker 2: Setting the conditions for everyone to thrive despite any differences

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Speaker 2: that they have, and realizing that we really like people

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Speaker 2: who are really like us, and so we should try

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Speaker 2: to learn the behavior of how to set the conditions

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Speaker 2: for people who are not like us to be to

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Speaker 2: also thrive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love in your book, You're right, make it

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Speaker 1: physically and emotionally safe to be different, and that despite

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Speaker 1: all the conversations and commitments and goals maybe put out

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Speaker 1: by companies, there's one thing to say it, and then

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Speaker 1: there's one thing to really make an environment where if

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Speaker 1: your view and even the viewpoint, like I love what

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Speaker 1: you said about meetings right to present a different viewpoint, I.

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Speaker 2: Just let's Yeah, if we just emphasize difference, we will

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Speaker 2: achieve so much more than our instinct to emphasize sameness.

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Speaker 1: Hey, listen in this final thirty second speaking of difference,

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Speaker 1: the division in politics, is there a fix? There?

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Speaker 2: There is, but it would require we only know how

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Speaker 2: to help people who want to change. And so if

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Speaker 2: the requirement is that they want to improve, if they

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Speaker 2: wanted to improve, I actually think we could fix it

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Speaker 2: in a week. But what they would have to want

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Speaker 2: to improve and they haven't convinced me of that?

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Speaker 1: Well, great way to end in such a timely conversation.

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Speaker 1: I love it, Francis, you always make it real and relevant.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, have a great weekend and look

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Speaker 1: forward to checking with you once again. Francis Fryes. She's

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Speaker 1: professor of Technology and Operations Management at Harvard Business School.

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Speaker 1: Her new book out, as just mentioned, co authored with

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Speaker 1: Anne Maurice, Move Fast and Fixed Things, The Trusted Leader's

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Speaker 1: Guide to Solving hard problems. Joining us on zoom from Boston, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: And as we mentioned, they also do a podcast called Fixable.

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Speaker 1: It's a ted podcast and so just interesting right common sense.

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Speaker 1: Love it. This is Bloomberg