WEBVTT - Mike Cocking 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:00.760 I miss the green. 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.480 For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:04.960 in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.000 And when I find my ball in a brid egg 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.479 Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday Frida Egg Bride 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:13.200 Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:14.160 Off of the course. 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.960 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.600 Friday Egg Podcast. Today I'm joined by Mike Cocking, a 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:53.440 golf course architect based in Australia and part of the Ogilvie, Clayton, 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.000 Cocking and Mead Design firm. Mike, Welcome on. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:00.760 Thanks Andy, thanks for having me. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:07.280 Yeah, excited to talk golf course architecture, some sand belt 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:12.280 Australia and little learn a little bit more about your 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.360 firm and what you guys are doing down under. 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.200 Absolutely, yep, look forward to it. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.720 So I'd love to hear. I think, knowing you a 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.119 little bit, I think you've got a really interesting background. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.800 How you got into golf course architecture. Why don't you 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.800 tell us how you got into golf and architecture. 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:38.959 Sure, well, I guess I got into golf. My first 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.240 sort of experience with golf was my parents decided to 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.039 take the game up when I was about I don't know, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.320 seven or eight, and they dragged my sister and I 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.000 out to the golf course and you know, I wander 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:53.400 around with. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.280 Him and we hated it. 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.400 It was it was not interesting at all. I probably 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:00.360 maybe I would have been hooked if I had been 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.560 allowed to swing a club or try and have a hit, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.320 but they were just new to the game and probably 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.880 nervous that I'd hit a shank and smash a car 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.640 or something. So that was sort of my first taste 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.400 of it. And then years later, well, I used to 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.800 My parents were teachers, and they started They would start 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:25.800 school at bit earlier than I would, so that they 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:27.960 would drop me at my grandparents' house and I'd just 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.880 watched TV for an hour before they would take me 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.000 to school. And one morning the golf was on and 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:40.200 it was I reckon. It was the eighty eight US Open, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:44.360 so it was Curtis Strange and Faldo, and I was 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.560 kind of I found it quite captivating, really because it 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.680 was a tight finish. I thought Valdo was cool because 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.560 he looked like Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones was speaking 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.880 at the time, so I kind of I was rooting 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:02.680 for him, and I went to school and Lullberhold. They 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:04.200 tired and so it was a playoff. So the next 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.480 day I got to see it again and that probably 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:12.400 was what really grabbed me. And then I kind of 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.680 found my parents' clubs in the cupboard at home and 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.760 started kind of chipping around the backyard, and so my 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:20.799 dad decided to take me to a driving range, and 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.000 it kind of went from there really and he was 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:24.680 keen to take up the game with me, so we 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:29.160 sort of started together, and I was probably eleven, then 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.040 eleven or twelve, and I went from the driving range 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.680 to a local kind of communi or public golf course, 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:38.920 and then I sort of joined a proper golf course 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.040 if you like, when I was perhaps fourteen thirteen fourteen. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.200 Then I joined Peninsula where we're working now, when I 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.480 was seventeen. I was there for about twenty years, and 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.839 then six six years ago I joined Kingston Heath because 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.120 I lived literally next door to Kingston Age, which is 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:56.600 kind of nice. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:57.880 That's yeah. 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.840 So that was sort of my introduction to golf. To 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.360 golf course design was a little bit a little bit later. 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.200 I mean, I think, like most kids are kind of 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.680 Drew Gold once I was kind of once I was 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:12.680 into golf, I was really into golf. You know, I 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:17.240 would read all the magazines and you know, see photos 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.240 of Cyprus Point and Augusta, and you know, that was 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.600 just like Disneyland to me. And I guess the thought 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:28.120 of ever seeing those was certainly, you know, really held 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:35.960 my attention. And then I I was my boss at 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:37.720 the time, I was working in a golf shop when 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.960 I was about fifteen or sixteen, and my boss got 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.760 a copy of one of the limited edition copies of 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.479 Tom Doak's Confidential Guide, and I borrowed that and sort 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.760 of reading through that started to understand that there was 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.640 this whole other element to golf courses that I'd never 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.600 really thought about. You know, I guess, like most kids, 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.159 just sort of the condition of the course is probably 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.040 what how you measure whether it's good or bad. And 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.920 suddenly he was talking about routings and talking about all 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.039 these things that I didn't really know what they were. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.000 And then as my golf improved, I was in what's 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.960 known as the Victorian Institute of Sport, which was it 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.359 was kind of Australia's answer to the college program in America. 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.600 So it was started in the nineties. Robert Allen, b 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.600 Stuart appleby Jeff Ogilvie, Aaron Badley, they all came through 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.520 that program, and through that I got to travel. I 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.880 was a good amateur, so I played seat of internationally 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.680 a fair bit, and I used Tom's book really to 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.479 find all the courses near where I was playing that 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.280 are worth seeing, so that it kind of extended from there. 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.960 And then I was never really comfortable with the idea 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:56.479 of playing professionally. I did briefly, but I don't know. 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.720 Maybe having options isn't a good thing if you're trying 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.080 to be a professional golfer. But I'd finished a degree 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.799 in engineering and I didn't want to be a struggling 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:12.599 pro by any stretch. And I was always I was 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.440 interested in golf course design obviously, but figured it would 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.239 be really hard to get into. But then Mike Clayton 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.800 then a couple of other guys who had started a 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.440 company together, got the job at Peninsula to do some work, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.760 which was where I was playing. And I knew Mike 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:32.159 through golf and sort of approached them whether they needed 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.440 sort of some help or part time work, or whether 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.120 you know, whether I could how I could kind of 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.799 get involved in golf course design, and that was in 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.120 two thousand and Ashley met actually joined that firm at 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.760 the same time to help out with construction. So Mike, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.640 Ashley and I have worked together for eighteen years and 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.320 it kind of went from there really and then over 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.239 time I got more interested in golf course design, less 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.360 interested in playing, and it just of, you know, I 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.560 played less golf and worked more in design. So it 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.480 kind of was a pretty that's how it progressed. 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.440 I guess have you found that since you stopped caring 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.600 as much about golf that your your golf has gotten 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.440 better the more you think about design. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:24.640 When you play, I enjoy it more, certainly I having 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.000 a bad round and not worrying about not having to 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.400 stress over all these parts you've missed or this shot 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.080 you've missed and having to go to the range work 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.440 on it. You know, I do like I enjoy my 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:36.480 golf again where you just you know, you just have 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.040 around and once you part out in eighteen that's the 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.880 end of it. I always find it hard to look 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.280 at kind of look at the architecture and play it 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.160 at the same time, because you get you do get 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.880 involved with your game, and I find I see a 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.320 lot more just walking a golf course rather than playing it. 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.160 So I'm never that fast. If I go overseas somewhere 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.040 and see a golf course that I've always wanted to see, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.400 I'm not that far if I don't play it. You know, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:03.960 in an ideal world you perhaps walk it in the 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.080 morning and then play it in the afternoon, But really 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.640 do you have that amount of time free? So, yeah, 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.320 I see a lot more kind of walking the golf course. 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:17.240 I find, Yeah, I would agree. You can just it 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.680 removes one like personal element from it and like you're 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.400 not looking for balls, and especially if you're walking it alone, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.560 you can just walk and observe it. You know, you're 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:32.240 not talking to somebody. But it's rare that you get 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:33.319 to do both. 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.360 That's right. And you probably don't concentrate on the you 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.680 don't notice the peripheral things, you know, because you do 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.600 kind of just focus on the playing area. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.800 Isn't down the middle and wherever you hit your ball too? 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.400 What would you say is one thing that like the 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:56.760 average golfer beginning to get into architecture do to understand 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:58.600 more about architecture while they're playing. 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.720 That's a good question. It. I guess, like on the 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:12.520 sand belt here, the strategies are fairly straightforward and quite 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:17.160 it's almost strategic design one O one. You know, the 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.160 greens are very clearly angled one way or the other. 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.560 So if you work, if you study the green complex 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.600 and work your way back the strategy, the whole makes sense. 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.080 And I think once they understand, like we talk about 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:37.000 it a lot when we have like a committee meeting 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.719 or something, it's amazing how few people understand the very 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.120 basics of strategy, you know, and once and it's not 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:49.200 really a complicated topic. But I think once they understand that, okay, well, 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.560 you know, the greens designed to favor play from a 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.520 particular part of the fair way, and usually around that 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.040 spot there's a hazard, you know, so if you play 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.160 close to the hazard, you get a better angle. If 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.400 you play further away from it, it's a worse angle. 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.480 And it's you know, there's shades of gray, it's not 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.440 black or white. You can aim a meter a little 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.280 bit to the ride or forty meters to the right, 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.000 and the shot just incrementally gets harder. And I think 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.360 once they you can see the light bulb go off 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.800 when you do explain that, and then suddenly they start 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:22.839 thinking about all the holes on the golf course and 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.640 how they're range. So I think it's in terms of 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.559 playing it. I think they need to understand that basic 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.680 logic and then they can kind of apply it to 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.760 their own game and their own golf course. I tell 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:39.960 you one thing that I find. I've got a set 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.480 of hickory clubs, which I've got a couple of sets, 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:49.240 but it's a lot of fun using hickories and on 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.240 an interesting on a strategic golf course because you really 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.600 understand the strategy of the holes. They make more sense 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.000 because you can't hit you know, with the hickories. Everything 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.240 comes out a bit lower and it runs. You can't 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.720 hit that high spinning nine nine that stops on the 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.240 green if you're out of position. So the strategy of 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.200 the golf course really shines through with hickorys. If that 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.200 makes sense, you have to be It's such a reward 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.280 for being in the right position and such a penalty 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.520 for being out of position with hickorys, just because you 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.720 can't hit that recovery shot. So I think people would 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:27.520 understand strategy very quickly, perhaps if they had around with hickrees. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.640 Maybe that's what people need to start learning golf on hecrees. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:42.120 Maybe maybe I don't think that happened a nineteen year 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.080 old to put away M two and pick up a 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:47.199 wooden shafted club. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.680 Yeah, it might actually slow down the growth of the game. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:53.400 That's right. 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.400 So in terms of you guys, have you got to 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.360 have one of the best player firms in the country 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:08.360 between but working with Mike Clayton, Jeff Ogilvie and Ashley Mead, 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.280 how do you guys work and split up work? 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.520 Yes, so where there's a couple of other staff members 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:19.680 as well that have worked with us for a long time. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:24.120 So we we like that kind of turnkey approach, I guess, 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.200 or I guess I've always liked the idea that we 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.559 can do everything from the first kind of little concept 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.360 sketch basically right through. So like a lot of the 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.560 modern firms like Bill and Ben and Tom and have you, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.360 we build. We build our own work. We don't really 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.839 like to give it to a contractor. So I guess 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.280 in the early phases of a new project or a design, 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.160 we all kind of get involved with that and sort 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.280 of chat through some of the big picture ideas. Jeff's 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.440 still playing of course in America, so he's probably not 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.600 as involved as you know as long term he hopes 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:08.520 to be. And then you know, I guess as it 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.840 moves into more of a construction probably actually and I 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.240 have more of a lead role in terms of being 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.480 on site and working with the guys out in the field. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.120 And you know that can limit how many projects you 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.839 take on. Usually two sort of big projects in construction 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.880 is about as much as we want to do because 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.240 invariably you've got You've also then got jobs that you're 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.360 pitching on, or there might be two or throw out 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.160 the jobs that are in design, and you know it's 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:40.760 obviously more than just those two that are in construction. 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:46.840 So yeah, that's typically how it works in terms. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.280 Of got the collaborative approach, and obviously with Jeff and 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.600 make you've got a couple of big names from in 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:58.160 Australia and obviously Jeff across the world. What are the 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.800 benefits of working in that and versus say being out 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:02.320 on your own. 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:09.240 I think I think collaborative approaches that I do find 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.880 it minimizes your missus. You know, sometimes if you're on 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:19.600 your own, you go down a certain path and perhaps 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.840 you're you're pushing hard to build a green or build 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.760 a hole on the edge. It's helpful to have someone 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.560 with fresh eyes come out and say, oh, you know, 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.360 I think there might be a bit of a stretch. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.520 It's a little bit too hard or a bit too slopy, 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.640 or you know, because you do get you get so 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.320 engrossed in that project that sometimes you forget to step 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.920 back and look a look at the big picture. So 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.880 that's where it's very helpful having any of the guys 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.800 come in and really with fresh eyes have a look 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.640 at it. I mean, Jeff and Mike certainly from a 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.640 playing point of view, is really helpful as well. I 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.120 know there's been a I mean, you don't build too 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.680 many tournament golf courses. There's on many tournaments in Australia, 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.040 but we do consult to a lot of courses that 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.680 host tournaments, and it is sometimes interesting you sort of 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.080 forget how good those guys are, how far they hit it, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.760 what they see as being a reasonable shot to take 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:21.360 on under certain conditions. So it sometimes just kind of 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.360 puts a different perspective on a whole So that's always 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:31.240 interesting versus on your own I mean, perhaps maybe the 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.960 negative of a collaborative approach is that you may not 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.760 get those way out ideas because they might always be 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:42.920 tempered by in a collaboration. But I think if you 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.640 come up with an idea and put a case forward 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.760 to why it's a good idea, typically we'll go ahead 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.000 and build it and then you just see how it evolves. 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:53.760 You can always I mean by building your own work. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:55.560 It's the advantage. You can build something. If it doesn't 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.200 look great, you can just change it. 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:02.960 Yeah, that's I think. Sometimes I would benefit from somebody 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.800 reading over some stuff that I write, because sometimes I 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.360 might go a little far, you know. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.560 Yeah, yeah. It's like it's like the email. You know, 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.040 you never I never send an email at night, you know, 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:21.360 because you yeah, you can get Yeah, it's amazing in 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.200 the morning when you wake up and have a read 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.680 of that same email, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm not 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:26.480 sure I can say that. 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.120 I send all my emails out late at night, so 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.040 that one of my problems. 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:35.120 Wait for the morning. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:41.640 So you're finishing up a project Landhai International in China, 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:46.560 I'm curious how golf design and the golf culture is 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.440 different there compared to Australia or the States. 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.760 Yeah, it's someone once described it to me is that, 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.520 you know, golfing in China and perhaps some other not 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.480 just China, but in the countries where golf is new, 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.359 that it's sort of an unsophisticated market. And that's not 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.080 a criticism. It's just that because golf is so new, 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.439 I don't necessarily know what's good and bad. You know 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.360 what's good design, what's bad design. You know, in America 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.320 you've had one hundred years for it to evolve and 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:30.120 to educate people, and likewise well longer in the UK, 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.320 about one hundred years in Australia. So it is tricky 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.359 trying to you know, so things like I guess most 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:43.000 clients in China would expect a past seventy two, for instance, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.960 because that's kind of what they understand as being the norm, 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.200 and you know, four past threes and four par fives 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.480 and sort of all those things just when you're getting 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.640 just when you're new to golf design, that the thing 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.840 is that you kind of understand as being the norm, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.760 that that's sort of I guess where a lot of 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.000 the golf is at. So that can be a challenge 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.880 for sure, I know when Bill and Ben were building 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.400 Shanquin Bay, supposedly that it was so different. I think 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.520 people were wondering just how the Chinese would react to it, 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.160 because it was a course that you would expect to see, 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.919 you know, in America, but perhaps not in a country 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.000 where most of the golf courses were your typical resort 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:29.399 style golf, you know, lots of water, sort of resort 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:30.200 style bunkers. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.360 And yeah, they were wondering. 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.119 How they would react to it. But I believe the 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.480 client there was very worldly. It traveled extensively around the world, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.639 so he kind of was confident that that was the 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:40.280 right approach. 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:46.520 Yeah, in China they unlike it. Like the UK, they 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:51.480 started with Saint Andrews. America we had like Chicago Golf 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:57.160 and Newport Country Club. Australia you had Alistair mackenzie pay 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.560 an early visit and kind of sat Melbourne on the path. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.800 But in China they got like Jack Nicholas and Arnold 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.680 Palmer designing courses and like the era of signature design 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.200 gave birth the golf there. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:18.720 Absolutely, Yeah, that's right, and now it's an interesting because 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:23.600 of the moratorium on new golf courses that there's I 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.000 believe there's four hundred and ninety six legal golf courses 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.560 now in China, you know, because they've closed so many 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:35.200 that were built illegally and that hasn't really been opened 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.160 up yet. So depending on how long that that goes. 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.760 Because the course we're working on there wasn't existing golf 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.600 course and we're just it's a redesign. So it may 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.720 be that the next wave in China is more redesign. 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.680 It could be that where a lot of those golf 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.520 courses they're legal, but perhaps they're not as good as 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.400 they could be, or they were part of, like you said, 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.680 that sort of wave of signature designs that it might 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.680 spread it now the idea of redesign work might kind 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.679 of start spreading into China. 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.600 So high profile club that you guys consult at as 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:16.000 Kingston Heath, which is one of the best golf courses 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.720 in the world regularly kind of comparison as the Australian Marion, 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.960 and then you also consult at Shady Oaks, a high 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:30.960 profile course in Dallas. What are the similarities and differences 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:36.080 between clubs in Australia and the America. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:46.000 So I guess Shady Oak. So it's a it's a 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:52.920 really pretty parkland style golf course. Robert Trent Jones Senior 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:58.159 built it for Marvin Leonard in the fifties on the 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.840 back of Colonial, So they built Colonial and they wanted 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.080 a smaller private member's course, went to Shady Oaks, and 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.240 of course Ben Hogan came across as part of that 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.320 as well, so that became his home. One of the 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.240 things that I always find fascinating and hopefully to answers 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.040 your question in a roundabout way, whenever we've looked at 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:23.160 courses in America, it's not all courses, but a lot 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:28.000 of the classic American parkland style course. We're always intrigued 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.439 by the the way they're set up with typically you know, 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.160 lots of rough around the greens, quite often rough between 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:41.880 the fairway bunkers and the fairways, which we find curious 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:46.080 because in Australia that the norm is to cut fairways 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.560 right to the edge of hazards and we typically have 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:52.880 a lot of short grass around greens and so it's 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:54.960 more of a I think it's more of a British 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.360 maintenance style in Australia, so we're really wedged firmly between, 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.800 you know, a little bit from Britain and a little 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:05.320 bit from America. I think with our golf they certainly 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.399 play firm and fast like they do in Britain, but 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.720 there's other elements that are kind of similar to America. 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:12.840 And what I guess is always interesting and part of 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.080 the pitch to Shady Oaks or one of the things 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:17.600 we sort of talked about was that it's kind of 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:23.280 interesting that Augusta, you know, has been, has been. If 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:25.639 you ask most tool players what their favorite course is 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.919 of the year, most of them would probably say Augusta. 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:31.080 Most golfers in America, if you ask it, you know, 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:32.879 their dream around or where would they love to go, 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:38.560 they probably say Augusta and Augusta it's essentially maintained like 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:41.159 a Samdbell golf course. You know, it's short, heaps of 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.320 short grass, heaps of short grass around the green, short 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:45.800 grass to the edge of the bunkers. It's it's kind 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.480 of like Royal Melbourne. Really, it's very similar. And yet 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:53.400 golf courses went in a totally different direction. They went 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.520 in another direction, and yet every year everyone goes back 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:59.600 to Augusta and loves it, and for whatever reason, it 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.320 kind of down this other part. So you know one 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:05.080 of the things that not that we're trying to turn 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:08.280 Shady Oaks into a SAMD Belt golf course, but certainly 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:13.960 we talked a lot about that, trying to create more 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.000 short grass and perhaps a line a little closer to 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.960 the way we like golf to be played. And they've 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:23.119 really embraced that. I mean in the first brand and 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.640 I flagged some new fairly lines there and I think 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.600 they added ten acres in a month of short grass, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.159 and the members have really liked it. So that is 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:35.640 always a curiosity to me though, that just the position 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:40.720 that Augusta holds in American golf, and yet people struggle 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:42.280 to join the dots. You know, they look at their 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:44.200 golf course and see the rough and you talk about 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:47.280 short grass and they look at you perhaps like you're 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:49.679 mad or what are you talking about? And yet you know, 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:54.600