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Speaker 1: I miss the green.

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Speaker 2: For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball

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Speaker 2: in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid egg

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Speaker 1: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday Frida Egg Bride

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Speaker 1: Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run.

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Speaker 3: Off of the course.

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Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the

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Speaker 2: Friday Egg Podcast. Today I'm joined by Mike Cocking, a

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Speaker 2: golf course architect based in Australia and part of the Ogilvie, Clayton,

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Speaker 2: Cocking and Mead Design firm. Mike, Welcome on.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Andy, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, excited to talk golf course architecture, some sand belt

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Speaker 2: Australia and little learn a little bit more about your

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Speaker 2: firm and what you guys are doing down under.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, yep, look forward to it.

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Speaker 2: So I'd love to hear. I think, knowing you a

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Speaker 2: little bit, I think you've got a really interesting background.

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Speaker 2: How you got into golf course architecture. Why don't you

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Speaker 2: tell us how you got into golf and architecture.

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Speaker 1: Sure, well, I guess I got into golf. My first

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Speaker 1: sort of experience with golf was my parents decided to

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Speaker 1: take the game up when I was about I don't know,

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Speaker 1: seven or eight, and they dragged my sister and I

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Speaker 1: out to the golf course and you know, I wander

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Speaker 1: around with.

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Speaker 3: Him and we hated it.

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Speaker 1: It was it was not interesting at all. I probably

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Speaker 1: maybe I would have been hooked if I had been

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Speaker 1: allowed to swing a club or try and have a hit,

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Speaker 1: but they were just new to the game and probably

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Speaker 1: nervous that I'd hit a shank and smash a car

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Speaker 1: or something. So that was sort of my first taste

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Speaker 1: of it. And then years later, well, I used to

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Speaker 1: My parents were teachers, and they started They would start

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Speaker 1: school at bit earlier than I would, so that they

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Speaker 1: would drop me at my grandparents' house and I'd just

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Speaker 1: watched TV for an hour before they would take me

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Speaker 1: to school. And one morning the golf was on and

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Speaker 1: it was I reckon. It was the eighty eight US Open,

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Speaker 1: so it was Curtis Strange and Faldo, and I was

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Speaker 1: kind of I found it quite captivating, really because it

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Speaker 1: was a tight finish. I thought Valdo was cool because

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Speaker 1: he looked like Harrison Ford and Indiana Jones was speaking

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Speaker 1: at the time, so I kind of I was rooting

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Speaker 1: for him, and I went to school and Lullberhold. They

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Speaker 1: tired and so it was a playoff. So the next

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Speaker 1: day I got to see it again and that probably

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Speaker 1: was what really grabbed me. And then I kind of

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Speaker 1: found my parents' clubs in the cupboard at home and

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Speaker 1: started kind of chipping around the backyard, and so my

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Speaker 1: dad decided to take me to a driving range, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of went from there really and he was

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Speaker 1: keen to take up the game with me, so we

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Speaker 1: sort of started together, and I was probably eleven, then

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Speaker 1: eleven or twelve, and I went from the driving range

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Speaker 1: to a local kind of communi or public golf course,

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Speaker 1: and then I sort of joined a proper golf course

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Speaker 1: if you like, when I was perhaps fourteen thirteen fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Then I joined Peninsula where we're working now, when I

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Speaker 1: was seventeen. I was there for about twenty years, and

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Speaker 1: then six six years ago I joined Kingston Heath because

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Speaker 1: I lived literally next door to Kingston Age, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of nice.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that was sort of my introduction to golf. To

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Speaker 1: golf course design was a little bit a little bit later.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think, like most kids are kind of

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Speaker 1: Drew Gold once I was kind of once I was

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Speaker 1: into golf, I was really into golf. You know, I

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Speaker 1: would read all the magazines and you know, see photos

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Speaker 1: of Cyprus Point and Augusta, and you know, that was

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Speaker 1: just like Disneyland to me. And I guess the thought

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Speaker 1: of ever seeing those was certainly, you know, really held

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Speaker 1: my attention. And then I I was my boss at

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Speaker 1: the time, I was working in a golf shop when

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Speaker 1: I was about fifteen or sixteen, and my boss got

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Speaker 1: a copy of one of the limited edition copies of

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Speaker 1: Tom Doak's Confidential Guide, and I borrowed that and sort

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Speaker 1: of reading through that started to understand that there was

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Speaker 1: this whole other element to golf courses that I'd never

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Speaker 1: really thought about. You know, I guess, like most kids,

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Speaker 1: just sort of the condition of the course is probably

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Speaker 1: what how you measure whether it's good or bad. And

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Speaker 1: suddenly he was talking about routings and talking about all

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Speaker 1: these things that I didn't really know what they were.

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Speaker 1: And then as my golf improved, I was in what's

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Speaker 1: known as the Victorian Institute of Sport, which was it

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Speaker 1: was kind of Australia's answer to the college program in America.

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Speaker 1: So it was started in the nineties. Robert Allen, b

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Speaker 1: Stuart appleby Jeff Ogilvie, Aaron Badley, they all came through

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Speaker 1: that program, and through that I got to travel. I

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Speaker 1: was a good amateur, so I played seat of internationally

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Speaker 1: a fair bit, and I used Tom's book really to

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Speaker 1: find all the courses near where I was playing that

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Speaker 1: are worth seeing, so that it kind of extended from there.

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Speaker 1: And then I was never really comfortable with the idea

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Speaker 1: of playing professionally. I did briefly, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe having options isn't a good thing if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to be a professional golfer. But I'd finished a degree

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Speaker 1: in engineering and I didn't want to be a struggling

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Speaker 1: pro by any stretch. And I was always I was

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Speaker 1: interested in golf course design obviously, but figured it would

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Speaker 1: be really hard to get into. But then Mike Clayton

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Speaker 1: then a couple of other guys who had started a

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Speaker 1: company together, got the job at Peninsula to do some work,

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Speaker 1: which was where I was playing. And I knew Mike

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Speaker 1: through golf and sort of approached them whether they needed

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Speaker 1: sort of some help or part time work, or whether

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Speaker 1: you know, whether I could how I could kind of

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Speaker 1: get involved in golf course design, and that was in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and Ashley met actually joined that firm at

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Speaker 1: the same time to help out with construction. So Mike,

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Speaker 1: Ashley and I have worked together for eighteen years and

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Speaker 1: it kind of went from there really and then over

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Speaker 1: time I got more interested in golf course design, less

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Speaker 1: interested in playing, and it just of, you know, I

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Speaker 1: played less golf and worked more in design. So it

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Speaker 1: kind of was a pretty that's how it progressed.

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Speaker 2: I guess have you found that since you stopped caring

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Speaker 2: as much about golf that your your golf has gotten

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Speaker 2: better the more you think about design.

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Speaker 1: When you play, I enjoy it more, certainly I having

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Speaker 1: a bad round and not worrying about not having to

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Speaker 1: stress over all these parts you've missed or this shot

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Speaker 1: you've missed and having to go to the range work

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Speaker 1: on it. You know, I do like I enjoy my

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Speaker 1: golf again where you just you know, you just have

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Speaker 1: around and once you part out in eighteen that's the

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Speaker 1: end of it. I always find it hard to look

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Speaker 1: at kind of look at the architecture and play it

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Speaker 1: at the same time, because you get you do get

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Speaker 1: involved with your game, and I find I see a

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Speaker 1: lot more just walking a golf course rather than playing it.

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Speaker 1: So I'm never that fast. If I go overseas somewhere

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Speaker 1: and see a golf course that I've always wanted to see,

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Speaker 1: I'm not that far if I don't play it. You know,

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Speaker 1: in an ideal world you perhaps walk it in the

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Speaker 1: morning and then play it in the afternoon, But really

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Speaker 1: do you have that amount of time free? So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I see a lot more kind of walking the golf course.

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Speaker 2: I find, Yeah, I would agree. You can just it

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Speaker 2: removes one like personal element from it and like you're

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Speaker 2: not looking for balls, and especially if you're walking it alone,

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Speaker 2: you can just walk and observe it. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: not talking to somebody. But it's rare that you get

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Speaker 2: to do both.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And you probably don't concentrate on the you

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Speaker 1: don't notice the peripheral things, you know, because you do

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Speaker 1: kind of just focus on the playing area.

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Speaker 3: Isn't down the middle and wherever you hit your ball too?

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Speaker 2: What would you say is one thing that like the

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Speaker 2: average golfer beginning to get into architecture do to understand

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Speaker 2: more about architecture while they're playing.

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Speaker 1: That's a good question. It. I guess, like on the

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Speaker 1: sand belt here, the strategies are fairly straightforward and quite

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Speaker 1: it's almost strategic design one O one. You know, the

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Speaker 1: greens are very clearly angled one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: So if you work, if you study the green complex

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Speaker 1: and work your way back the strategy, the whole makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And I think once they understand, like we talk about

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Speaker 1: it a lot when we have like a committee meeting

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Speaker 1: or something, it's amazing how few people understand the very

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Speaker 1: basics of strategy, you know, and once and it's not

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Speaker 1: really a complicated topic. But I think once they understand that, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the greens designed to favor play from a

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Speaker 1: particular part of the fair way, and usually around that

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Speaker 1: spot there's a hazard, you know, so if you play

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Speaker 1: close to the hazard, you get a better angle. If

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Speaker 1: you play further away from it, it's a worse angle.

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Speaker 1: And it's you know, there's shades of gray, it's not

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Speaker 1: black or white. You can aim a meter a little

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Speaker 1: bit to the ride or forty meters to the right,

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Speaker 1: and the shot just incrementally gets harder. And I think

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Speaker 1: once they you can see the light bulb go off

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Speaker 1: when you do explain that, and then suddenly they start

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Speaker 1: thinking about all the holes on the golf course and

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Speaker 1: how they're range. So I think it's in terms of

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Speaker 1: playing it. I think they need to understand that basic

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Speaker 1: logic and then they can kind of apply it to

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Speaker 1: their own game and their own golf course. I tell

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Speaker 1: you one thing that I find. I've got a set

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Speaker 1: of hickory clubs, which I've got a couple of sets,

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Speaker 1: but it's a lot of fun using hickories and on

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Speaker 1: an interesting on a strategic golf course because you really

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Speaker 1: understand the strategy of the holes. They make more sense

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Speaker 1: because you can't hit you know, with the hickories. Everything

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Speaker 1: comes out a bit lower and it runs. You can't

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Speaker 1: hit that high spinning nine nine that stops on the

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Speaker 1: green if you're out of position. So the strategy of

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Speaker 1: the golf course really shines through with hickorys. If that

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Speaker 1: makes sense, you have to be It's such a reward

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Speaker 1: for being in the right position and such a penalty

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Speaker 1: for being out of position with hickorys, just because you

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Speaker 1: can't hit that recovery shot. So I think people would

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Speaker 1: understand strategy very quickly, perhaps if they had around with hickrees.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's what people need to start learning golf on hecrees.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I don't think that happened a nineteen year

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Speaker 1: old to put away M two and pick up a

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Speaker 1: wooden shafted club.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it might actually slow down the growth of the game.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So in terms of you guys, have you got to

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Speaker 2: have one of the best player firms in the country

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Speaker 2: between but working with Mike Clayton, Jeff Ogilvie and Ashley Mead,

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Speaker 2: how do you guys work and split up work?

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Speaker 1: Yes, so where there's a couple of other staff members

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Speaker 1: as well that have worked with us for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So we we like that kind of turnkey approach, I guess,

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Speaker 1: or I guess I've always liked the idea that we

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Speaker 1: can do everything from the first kind of little concept

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Speaker 1: sketch basically right through. So like a lot of the

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Speaker 1: modern firms like Bill and Ben and Tom and have you,

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Speaker 1: we build. We build our own work. We don't really

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Speaker 1: like to give it to a contractor. So I guess

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Speaker 1: in the early phases of a new project or a design,

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Speaker 1: we all kind of get involved with that and sort

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Speaker 1: of chat through some of the big picture ideas. Jeff's

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Speaker 1: still playing of course in America, so he's probably not

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Speaker 1: as involved as you know as long term he hopes

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Speaker 1: to be. And then you know, I guess as it

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Speaker 1: moves into more of a construction probably actually and I

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Speaker 1: have more of a lead role in terms of being

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Speaker 1: on site and working with the guys out in the field.

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Speaker 1: And you know that can limit how many projects you

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Speaker 1: take on. Usually two sort of big projects in construction

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Speaker 1: is about as much as we want to do because

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Speaker 1: invariably you've got You've also then got jobs that you're

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Speaker 1: pitching on, or there might be two or throw out

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Speaker 1: the jobs that are in design, and you know it's

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Speaker 1: obviously more than just those two that are in construction.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's typically how it works in terms.

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Speaker 2: Of got the collaborative approach, and obviously with Jeff and

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Speaker 2: make you've got a couple of big names from in

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Speaker 2: Australia and obviously Jeff across the world. What are the

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Speaker 2: benefits of working in that and versus say being out

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Speaker 2: on your own.

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Speaker 1: I think I think collaborative approaches that I do find

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Speaker 1: it minimizes your missus. You know, sometimes if you're on

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Speaker 1: your own, you go down a certain path and perhaps

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Speaker 1: you're you're pushing hard to build a green or build

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Speaker 1: a hole on the edge. It's helpful to have someone

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Speaker 1: with fresh eyes come out and say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think there might be a bit of a stretch.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit too hard or a bit too slopy,

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Speaker 1: or you know, because you do get you get so

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Speaker 1: engrossed in that project that sometimes you forget to step

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Speaker 1: back and look a look at the big picture. So

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Speaker 1: that's where it's very helpful having any of the guys

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Speaker 1: come in and really with fresh eyes have a look

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Speaker 1: at it. I mean, Jeff and Mike certainly from a

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Speaker 1: playing point of view, is really helpful as well. I

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Speaker 1: know there's been a I mean, you don't build too

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Speaker 1: many tournament golf courses. There's on many tournaments in Australia,

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Speaker 1: but we do consult to a lot of courses that

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Speaker 1: host tournaments, and it is sometimes interesting you sort of

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Speaker 1: forget how good those guys are, how far they hit it,

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Speaker 1: what they see as being a reasonable shot to take

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Speaker 1: on under certain conditions. So it sometimes just kind of

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Speaker 1: puts a different perspective on a whole So that's always

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Speaker 1: interesting versus on your own I mean, perhaps maybe the

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Speaker 1: negative of a collaborative approach is that you may not

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Speaker 1: get those way out ideas because they might always be

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Speaker 1: tempered by in a collaboration. But I think if you

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Speaker 1: come up with an idea and put a case forward

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Speaker 1: to why it's a good idea, typically we'll go ahead

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Speaker 1: and build it and then you just see how it evolves.

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Speaker 1: You can always I mean by building your own work.

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Speaker 1: It's the advantage. You can build something. If it doesn't

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Speaker 1: look great, you can just change it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I think. Sometimes I would benefit from somebody

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Speaker 2: reading over some stuff that I write, because sometimes I

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Speaker 2: might go a little far, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It's like it's like the email. You know,

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Speaker 1: you never I never send an email at night, you know,

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Speaker 1: because you yeah, you can get Yeah, it's amazing in

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Speaker 1: the morning when you wake up and have a read

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Speaker 1: of that same email, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure I can say that.

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Speaker 2: I send all my emails out late at night, so

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Speaker 2: that one of my problems.

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Speaker 1: Wait for the morning.

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Speaker 2: So you're finishing up a project Landhai International in China,

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Speaker 2: I'm curious how golf design and the golf culture is

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Speaker 2: different there compared to Australia or the States.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's someone once described it to me is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, golfing in China and perhaps some other not

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Speaker 1: just China, but in the countries where golf is new,

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Speaker 1: that it's sort of an unsophisticated market. And that's not

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Speaker 1: a criticism. It's just that because golf is so new,

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Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know what's good and bad. You know

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Speaker 1: what's good design, what's bad design. You know, in America

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Speaker 1: you've had one hundred years for it to evolve and

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Speaker 1: to educate people, and likewise well longer in the UK,

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Speaker 1: about one hundred years in Australia. So it is tricky

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Speaker 1: trying to you know, so things like I guess most

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Speaker 1: clients in China would expect a past seventy two, for instance,

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Speaker 1: because that's kind of what they understand as being the norm,

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Speaker 1: and you know, four past threes and four par fives

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Speaker 1: and sort of all those things just when you're getting

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Speaker 1: just when you're new to golf design, that the thing

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Speaker 1: is that you kind of understand as being the norm,

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Speaker 1: that that's sort of I guess where a lot of

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Speaker 1: the golf is at. So that can be a challenge

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Speaker 1: for sure, I know when Bill and Ben were building

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Speaker 1: Shanquin Bay, supposedly that it was so different. I think

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Speaker 1: people were wondering just how the Chinese would react to it,

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Speaker 1: because it was a course that you would expect to see,

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Speaker 1: you know, in America, but perhaps not in a country

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Speaker 1: where most of the golf courses were your typical resort

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Speaker 1: style golf, you know, lots of water, sort of resort

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Speaker 1: style bunkers.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, they were wondering.

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Speaker 1: How they would react to it. But I believe the

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Speaker 1: client there was very worldly. It traveled extensively around the world,

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Speaker 1: so he kind of was confident that that was the

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Speaker 1: right approach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in China they unlike it. Like the UK, they

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Speaker 2: started with Saint Andrews. America we had like Chicago Golf

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Speaker 2: and Newport Country Club. Australia you had Alistair mackenzie pay

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Speaker 2: an early visit and kind of sat Melbourne on the path.

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Speaker 2: But in China they got like Jack Nicholas and Arnold

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Speaker 2: Palmer designing courses and like the era of signature design

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Speaker 2: gave birth the golf there.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, that's right, and now it's an interesting because

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Speaker 1: of the moratorium on new golf courses that there's I

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Speaker 1: believe there's four hundred and ninety six legal golf courses

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Speaker 1: now in China, you know, because they've closed so many

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Speaker 1: that were built illegally and that hasn't really been opened

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Speaker 1: up yet. So depending on how long that that goes.

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Speaker 1: Because the course we're working on there wasn't existing golf

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Speaker 1: course and we're just it's a redesign. So it may

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Speaker 1: be that the next wave in China is more redesign.

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Speaker 1: It could be that where a lot of those golf

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Speaker 1: courses they're legal, but perhaps they're not as good as

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Speaker 1: they could be, or they were part of, like you said,

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Speaker 1: that sort of wave of signature designs that it might

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Speaker 1: spread it now the idea of redesign work might kind

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Speaker 1: of start spreading into China.

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Speaker 2: So high profile club that you guys consult at as

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Speaker 2: Kingston Heath, which is one of the best golf courses

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Speaker 2: in the world regularly kind of comparison as the Australian Marion,

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Speaker 2: and then you also consult at Shady Oaks, a high

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Speaker 2: profile course in Dallas. What are the similarities and differences

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Speaker 2: between clubs in Australia and the America.

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Speaker 1: So I guess Shady Oak. So it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: really pretty parkland style golf course. Robert Trent Jones Senior

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Speaker 1: built it for Marvin Leonard in the fifties on the

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Speaker 1: back of Colonial, So they built Colonial and they wanted

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Speaker 1: a smaller private member's course, went to Shady Oaks, and

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Speaker 1: of course Ben Hogan came across as part of that

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Speaker 1: as well, so that became his home. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I always find fascinating and hopefully to answers

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Speaker 1: your question in a roundabout way, whenever we've looked at

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Speaker 1: courses in America, it's not all courses, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of the classic American parkland style course. We're always intrigued

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Speaker 1: by the the way they're set up with typically you know,

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Speaker 1: lots of rough around the greens, quite often rough between

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Speaker 1: the fairway bunkers and the fairways, which we find curious

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Speaker 1: because in Australia that the norm is to cut fairways

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Speaker 1: right to the edge of hazards and we typically have

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Speaker 1: a lot of short grass around greens and so it's

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Speaker 1: more of a I think it's more of a British

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Speaker 1: maintenance style in Australia, so we're really wedged firmly between,

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Speaker 1: you know, a little bit from Britain and a little

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Speaker 1: bit from America. I think with our golf they certainly

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Speaker 1: play firm and fast like they do in Britain, but

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Speaker 1: there's other elements that are kind of similar to America.

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Speaker 1: And what I guess is always interesting and part of

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Speaker 1: the pitch to Shady Oaks or one of the things

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Speaker 1: we sort of talked about was that it's kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting that Augusta, you know, has been, has been. If

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Speaker 1: you ask most tool players what their favorite course is

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Speaker 1: of the year, most of them would probably say Augusta.

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Speaker 1: Most golfers in America, if you ask it, you know,

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Speaker 1: their dream around or where would they love to go,

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Speaker 1: they probably say Augusta and Augusta it's essentially maintained like

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Speaker 1: a Samdbell golf course. You know, it's short, heaps of

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Speaker 1: short grass, heaps of short grass around the green, short

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Speaker 1: grass to the edge of the bunkers. It's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like Royal Melbourne. Really, it's very similar. And yet

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Speaker 1: golf courses went in a totally different direction. They went

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Speaker 1: in another direction, and yet every year everyone goes back

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Speaker 1: to Augusta and loves it, and for whatever reason, it

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Speaker 1: kind of down this other part. So you know one

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Speaker 1: of the things that not that we're trying to turn

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Speaker 1: Shady Oaks into a SAMD Belt golf course, but certainly

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Speaker 1: we talked a lot about that, trying to create more

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Speaker 1: short grass and perhaps a line a little closer to

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Speaker 1: the way we like golf to be played. And they've

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Speaker 1: really embraced that. I mean in the first brand and

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Speaker 1: I flagged some new fairly lines there and I think

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Speaker 1: they added ten acres in a month of short grass,

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Speaker 1: and the members have really liked it. So that is

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Speaker 1: always a curiosity to me though, that just the position

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Speaker 1: that Augusta holds in American golf, and yet people struggle

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Speaker 1: to join the dots. You know, they look at their

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Speaker 1: golf course and see the rough and you talk about

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Speaker 1: short grass and they look at you perhaps like you're

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Speaker 1: mad or what are you talking about? And yet you know,

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Speaker 1: come April every year it's there for everyone to see.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that is a curiosity.

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Speaker 2: Most people seem to focus on, like the flowers and

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Speaker 2: the green nature of Augustine. Take the two worse things

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Speaker 2: to their golf course and make it soft and slow

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Speaker 2: and plant some flowers, but curious with extending fairway lanes.

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Speaker 2: It seems that one of the common you know, pushbacks

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Speaker 2: from a club would be you're making this golf course easier.

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Speaker 2: What is your response to that?

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Speaker 1: Well, and that's true. I mean you need to look

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Speaker 1: at the whole package. And because if the green complexes

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Speaker 1: and the bunkering isn't great, then yeah, widening of course

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Speaker 1: will make it easier. So they kind of fit together.

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Speaker 1: I mean ideally there's lots of space for people to

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Speaker 1: hit to, but in actual fact that the desired area

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Speaker 1: of the fairway is quite small, you know. And I

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Speaker 1: think part of that which is often forgotten about is

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Speaker 1: the is the maintenance. I mean when people talk about

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Speaker 1: tool courses and the like, I mean, one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that many of the sand Belt courses are still

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Speaker 1: so relevant from a tournament perspective is how firm and

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Speaker 1: fast the greens are, you know, because you can't I mean,

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Speaker 1: Kingston Head's not particularly long in sort of US tour standards.

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Speaker 1: It's probably seven thousand one hundred yards, maybe seven thousand

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Speaker 1: two hundred yards, but you know, it's not just a

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Speaker 1: driver of every tee because the greens are so well

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Speaker 1: designed and firm that if you are out of position,

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Speaker 1: you can't easily hit. Sometimes you can't even hit the

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Speaker 1: green if you're in the wrong spot, So suddenly you're

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Speaker 1: prepared to sacrifice some distance to hit a three iron

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Speaker 1: or hit a two iron into the right position of

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Speaker 1: the fairway. So but if the greens were if the

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Speaker 1: greens were really soft, then suddenly it wouldn't be quite

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Speaker 1: as strategic, because you could you could play to the

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Speaker 1: greens from anywhere. And if and if you waded it

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Speaker 1: down even further and just built some fairly flat greens

437
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: and bought the bunkers further away from the putting surface,

438
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: then it would be even less strategic. Again, so it's

439
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: not just that you can't just look at the widening

440
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: of the fairways. It has to be looked at with

441
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: the position of the bunkers and the green design too sore.

442
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: At Shady there were some spots where you could easily

443
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: add short grass, particularly around the greens, because there was

444
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: a lot of greens that were perched up and there

445
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: were some nice sort of hollows and slopes away from

446
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: them where you could add short grass and not make

447
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: it easier in some ways. You know, short grass around

448
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: the greens. If there's a slope, adding short grass actually

449
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: makes it harder because a missshot just the ball just

450
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: finishes further away from the putting surface instead of getting

451
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: caught up in that little bit rough, you know, between

452
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: the green and the bunker.

453
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think when the

454
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: ball rolls it's very scary for good players especially.

455
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it puts it puts doubt in a good

456
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: player's mind because you don't know what to hit. You know,

457
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: if it's done well, suddenly you've got five clubs in

458
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: your head thinking, well, do you know do I hit

459
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: the kind of that three would bump and run that

460
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, the Tiger kind of did a fair bit

461
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: of Or do you try and hit a lobodge or

462
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: do you bounce it into the slope with like are

463
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: a wedge? Or do you a part of it? But

464
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: the great thing is for a hacker, for a bad player,

465
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: they can just pull apart up and they can at

466
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: least kind of knock it up there and knock it

467
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: on the green. They probably won't get up and down,

468
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: but it's a it's a really that's where it's a

469
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: clever hazard because it's hard for the good player and

470
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: or confusing for the good player and kind of easy

471
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: for the average player.

472
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in agreement there. A big, high profile project

473
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: you're working is Peninsula, which is, of course you grew

474
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: up playing in Melbourne. Yea, you know, is there some

475
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: pressure with all the great courses around Melbourne designing a

476
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: new course with all the historic courses.

477
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: There is? I mean it was. It's a great bit

478
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: of land, the equal almost the equal to real Melbourne really,

479
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: but it was a course that it never quite had

480
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: reached its potential. So they've been redesigned work done there previously,

481
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: and we've done quite a lot of that, but it

482
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: was usually it was done on a shoe string and

483
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: it was never a.

484
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: Comprehensive sort of redevelopment.

485
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: And I guess that they merged with a golf club

486
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: called Kingswood, so now it's sort of Peninsula. Kingswood is

487
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: the new club and that allowed them financially the opportunity

488
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: to look at a much bigger redevelopment, which is what

489
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: sort of web two thirds of the way through. And

490
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: the challenge for them absolutely is so when people come

491
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: to Melbourne and want a taste of samd Belt golf,

492
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: they typically go to Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heave if

493
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: they have time, they might go to Metropolitan Victoria and

494
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: usually that's it. Then they go they might go down

495
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: to Tasmayania to play Bamboo Junes or king Owen and

496
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: then they're gone. And as a result of that or

497
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: this has actually influenced that that mindset that there is

498
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: a big gap between those four elite sand Belt clubs

499
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: and kind of everyone else on the sand Belt. So

500
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: their challenge and our challenge is to kind of turn

501
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: four into five. You know, when people come to Melbourne,

502
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: they want to go to Poeninsula Kingswood, so that, yeah,

503
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: there is a lot of pressure attached to that. I mean,

504
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: we've assembled a really good team down there, and so

505
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: far the results are showing that, you know, it's looking

506
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: really promising. But it's a hard nut to crack that

507
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: elite sam Belt club, if you like, because they've had

508
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, they had one hundred years and copious tournaments

509
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: that have kind of created their reputation. So it's hard

510
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: to We're trying to do fifty years work in three,

511
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, and that's so it's even if we get

512
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: the product there, it's still going to take a little

513
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: time for I think for that to influence rankings and

514
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: how people view the golf course both here and overseas. Yeah.

515
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at the American top ten

516
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: golf courses, there's only one modern golf course in there,

517
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: sand Hills, and you know at this point it's it's

518
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: now twenty five years old almost.

519
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

520
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: So it's it's tricky because the history and the tradition

521
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: always get lumped into judging the golf course. Are you

522
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: guys pulling a lot of influence from those area courses

523
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: and or are you trying to build something new and unique.

524
00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: No, we're one thing. It's a bit of a cross

525
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: between or a bit of a hybrid of some of

526
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: the other Sandbelt courses. There's two courses there, so there's

527
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: a north course in a south course, and we built

528
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: many years ago a creek on the south course through

529
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: sort of some a low section of the course. And

530
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: looking at old photos of the site, there were actually

531
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: quite a lot of creeks that ran through the property,

532
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: so there was quite a few wet areas, and so

533
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: we had an idea to maybe make a better looking creek.

534
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: We used some we used the local stonemason to kind

535
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: of create the impression that was like an old ruin,

536
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: I guess, so sort of it was interesting because he

537
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: was clients typically judged how well he did a job

538
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: by how perfect the rock work was the draysten wall,

539
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: and we were like, no, no, no, we don't want

540
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: it perfectly, want it rugged and old and sort of,

541
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, almost falling apart. So he really enjoyed it

542
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: because it was totally different from what he was used

543
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: and so we did that on one hole and it

544
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: worked out so well. We ended up creating that crete

545
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: network through a number of holes. So in a way

546
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: that became a bit of a signature of the of

547
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: the South course, whereas the North is a bit more elevated,

548
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: it's a bit more undulating, sandier, and so it's probably

549
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: more and the vegetation is better, a lot more heath

550
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: than kind of almost a monas stand of the Manicum,

551
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: which is the kind of the the tree which most

552
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: would identify with a lot of the sand belt courses.

553
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: So it's probably more of a typical sand belt experience.

554
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: And whilst the South is a sand belt course, it's

555
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: just that the creek kind of creates a little bit

556
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: of a point of difference between the North in terms

557
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: of the greens and the bunkers though they probably they

558
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: probably weren't. One of the big drivers of the project

559
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: was conditioning. They've never really had firm fast greens, which

560
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: are kind of you know, synonymous, I guess with SAMD

561
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: belt golf, so a lot of work. We basically created

562
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: a new sort of a different style of construction with

563
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: the green. So a lot of there's been a lot

564
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: of USGA greens on the sand belt built over the

565
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: last thirty years, but people have struggled, They really struggled

566
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: to get in the firm So we went with a

567
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: different construction technique, a different grass, and one of the

568
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: things we've noticed on the old greens was that the

569
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: bunkers weren't They were very much out of scale with

570
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: the greens. If you look at sand belt holes from

571
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: the air, the bunkering around the green is bigger than

572
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: the green. So really that's what helps create the scale

573
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: of the green sites on the sand belt. People look

574
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: at Royal Melbourne's greens and think they're enormous, and they

575
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: are big, but they're not that big. The reason they

576
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: feel big is because it's so expansive around the green.

577
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: The bunkering is really expansive and a lot of short grass.

578
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: So they're these big, they feel like, these huge, elegant

579
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: green sites. So we very much borrowed from that concept

580
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: with the green sites of Peninsula. We cleared out a

581
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: lot of space around them, and the bunkering now is

582
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: much bigger, much more, more of the sort of capes

583
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: and bays that people you know, people talk about Mackenzie bunkering,

584
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: but it's probably a different topic. But yeah, so more

585
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: of that kind of classic bunkering style that you would

586
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: see at rom Melbourne and Kingston. A more short grass. Yeah,

587
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: and we've cleared out a fair bit of vegetation to

588
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: try and return it to what we hope is what

589
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: the property would have looked like, you know, one hundred

590
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: years ago before there was a golf course there.

591
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: That's that's cool, natural, much more natural.

592
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: And yeah, then you.

593
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: Got the other side that's got the rustic creek.

594
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: So absolutely, and it's sort of I mean, they've given us,

595
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: they've afforded us a lot of license, which has been

596
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: I mean, they've been just a fantastic club to work

597
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: with and so much you just wouldn't get that license

598
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: at many of the the sand Belt clubs you wouldn't

599
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 1: be afforded that amount of license. But as a result,

600
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: what will happen is that, you know, the North is

601
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: the Sandburg golf course that so many of the other

602
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: Sandburg clubs want to be, you know, so they really

603
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: do have the potential to leap frog a whole bunch

604
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: of clubs, and you put themselves as a thirty six

605
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: hole venue. You know, they should be. It should be

606
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 1: the place to join in Melbourne.

607
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you get variety between the two courses. So

608
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 2: it's so with you be down in Australia. I'm curious.

609
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: I asked this question every once in a while. Who's

610
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: on your Mount Rushmore? So for architects, that's a Mount Rushmore.

611
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know is a famous.

612
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, I don't know. Well, it's hard.

613
00:35:54,280 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: We're so heavily influenced by Alistair McKenzie here, rightly or wrongly,

614
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: you know, but I think probably rightly. But you know,

615
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: he only spent ten weeks here McKenzie. You know, it's

616
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: an interesting story and so as you know, he came here,

617
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: Royal Melbourne engaged him to come out, I guess through

618
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 1: the RNA connection to come out and design their course.

619
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: I think he got paid two hundred pounds and to

620
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: help pay for that fee, they sort of farmed him

621
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: out to a lot of other golf courses and they

622
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: did a deal with him to split the fee so

623
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: for any other work that they could find for him,

624
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: he would go halves on his consulting fee. And he

625
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: was seriously active. I mean he came here to Melbourne.

626
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: He did the design for Roal Melbourne. He consulted to

627
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: Kingston Heath and the Explorer and did a bunker plan.

628
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: So you know, at that time it was quite common

629
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: for courses to get built and then they would do

630
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: the bunkering scheme after they opened, so they would kind

631
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: of see how people played the gold of course and

632
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: then figure out for where to put the bunkers. So

633
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: that wasn't uncommon at the time. So he did an

634
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: scheme for Kingston Heath, He did a plan for Metropolitan,

635
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: He did a bunkering plan for Victoria. He went to

636
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: Adelaide and did a plan for a design plan for

637
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: Royal Adelaide. He went to new stath Whale and went

638
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: to New Sos Golf Club. Royal Adelaide. He consulted by Doon.

639
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: He consulted at two or three others. He went to

640
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: Queensland and consulted I think Brisbane Golf Club in Dropilli

641
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: Golf Club, all in ten weeks and he saw really

642
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: nothing built. He saw the fifth Wester at Royal Melbourne

643
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: either built or partly built, which is that kind of

644
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 1: famous iconic path three from the elevated tea elevated green

645
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: and hit across the valley. And he supposedly saw a

646
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: little bit of fifteen at the uphill path three which

647
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,479
Speaker 1: was previously what could only have been an odd hole.

648
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: It was a blind path four over the hill. So

649
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: he brought the green back to the top of the hill.

650
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: And I think he saw some bunkers built on the

651
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: thirteenth ro Royal Adelaide and then he was gone. So

652
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: but he influenced. He struck up a relationship with Alex Russell,

653
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: who became a designer in his own right and designed

654
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: a pretty cool set of four golf courses. He did

655
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 1: the Royal Melbourne East, he did Lake carrn Up in Perth,

656
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: he did Yariara and he did Parapari in New Zealand

657
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: which is a great links course. And he also taught

658
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: a father and son team of construction guy. So Mick

659
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: Morecambe who was the Royal Melbourne superintendent, he built all

660
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: his work there and then he built the work where

661
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: they did a couple of greens at Metropolitan and did

662
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: work at Victoria and basically what you know is the

663
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: sand belt look with bunkers is very heavily influenced by

664
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: Mick Morcomb or his son Vern, and Vern became the

665
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: superintendent at king Sneve where he was for forty six years,

666
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: and he changed that golf course a lot, he changed

667
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: the bunkering a lot. He readed greens, he readed teas.

668
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: So it's always interesting with Mackenzie just how much people

669
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: talk about the credit, the big unknown factor, like the primary.

670
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: His primary influence was ten weeks long, maybe not that much.

671
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: Did a couple of plans but never saw them built.

672
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: So he never really wrote about in his books how

673
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: great the work was in Australia because he never saw it.

674
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: But his secondary influence I think was huge. That's the thing.

675
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: You know. He was clever that he found guys that

676
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: were talented I guess, educated them and then they then

677
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: went on and that then influenced the next generation and

678
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: the next generation. So it was a it was a

679
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: defining moment. Those ten weeks really changed the course of

680
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: golf course design in Australia. So as an Australian, to

681
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: get back to your question, he's clearly front and center

682
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 1: in the Mount rush more of golf.

683
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 2: I think it will be crazy if somebody did a

684
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: golf course the way they used to bunker it. If

685
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: they waited till some people play it and then bunkerd it,

686
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 2: how much more effective and how fewer bunkers a golf

687
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: course would have.

688
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. The only tricky thing with it, I guess would

689
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: be the green complexes, because it's kind of hard to

690
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: build bunkers and grains independently from one another. You know,

691
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: they really they need to be built as one kind

692
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: of shape when you know you're sculpting the land and

693
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: you're building the green at the same time as you're

694
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: building the shapes around the bunkers.

695
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit more costly.

696
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but fairly bunkers. Yeah, you know, I guess it's

697
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: sort of I mean, you would like to think now

698
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: that I think you should know good enough to think

699
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: through it.

700
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: So you got Alistair McKenzie and your ones.

701
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: Well he's in there. I mean, I don't know. I've

702
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: traveled quite a bit. I really like cold In obviously

703
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: in the UK and the influence he had over there.

704
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: I really like gold courses. I've got a bit of

705
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: a sucker for I haven't played a lot of his courses,

706
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: but I'm always fascinated by Rainer and McDonald and I

707
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: would love to see surely the time's right. Actually, in fact,

708
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: I saw a photo of someone who was doing a

709
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: bit of a too. You kind of wonder with golf

710
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: course design, whether the just have whether like art movements,

711
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: whether we'll go through a different you know. I mean

712
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: a lot of the new courses built now I sort

713
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: of look and feel similar. It'd be kind of nice,

714
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: and I think it'd be cool to for someone to

715
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: build a super geometric Rainer style, still strategic, but just

716
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: visually quite different golf course. I would love to see that.

717
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 2: I think they're doing it at Arcadia Bluffs is one

718
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 2: that looks similar. You know, it's got the squared off

719
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 2: greens and oh okay in the trench. It would be

720
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: cool to see. Yeah, it'd be cool to see one

721
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 2: of those in Australia.

722
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: I would I mean unfortunately. I think because he's so

723
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: unknown here that if you started down that track, they

724
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: would put the client probably wouldn't let you unless they

725
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: were really well traveled. They would look at it and go,

726
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, what do you what are you doing? That

727
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: would be the challenge, with the challenge to convince them

728
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: that yeah it's a worthy cause. So yeah, probably I

729
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: would probably have mackenzie cult.

730
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: We'll put amal mcarainer, you know, will make.

731
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: Him one yeah, yeah, yeah, and maybe just hanging off

732
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: the edge. I think the Malcombs I always feel good

733
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: sorry for. I don't think they get the credit that

734
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: is here in Australia anyway. Everyone talks, you know, talks

735
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: about McKenzie. But yeah, when you look at Kingston Heath,

736
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: it's a result of four or five different people over

737
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: one hundred years. It's not you know, to call it

738
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: a McKenzie course is way overstating it.

739
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: How do you mean As an architect and knowing that

740
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 2: a lot of work in this era will be redesigned

741
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 2: and usually there's only one architect on the scorecard, what's

742
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: your thoughts on approaching you know, should every architect be

743
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: listed on a scorecard?

744
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: Well? I I they very rarely the magazines, and they

745
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: very rarely get it right. They either don't research it

746
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: properly or they credit the kind of the known person.

747
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: I don't really see why. I would prefer that they

748
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: didn't credit any architect, to be honest. I mean, it's

749
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: the champions the golf course and not the architects, you know,

750
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: or trying to label one particular architects so difficult. I

751
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: mean Kingston Heath, for instance, is you know it was

752
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: a Dan Suitor course. Mackenzie did this plan, Vern Morecombe was,

753
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: Mick morcamb built some work there. Vern Morcambe was a superintendent.

754
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: I mean, we're the consulting accent now, but it would

755
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: be totally wrong to credit us to it. And then

756
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: you've had all different captains and presidents over the years

757
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: that have influenced it. Yeah, the golf course today is

758
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: the best it's ever been in a hundred years, and

759
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: to try if you tried to restore it to any

760
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: particular era, even the so called Mackenzie era, it would

761
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: be a worse golf course. No way would it be

762
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: as good as it is now. So it's kind of like,

763
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I mean, magazines are just obsessed

764
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: by labeling each course with an archeced I would rather

765
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: they didn't just call it, you know, Kingston Heath.

766
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 2: My uncle gave me this old Jeff Cornish Ron Wittens book.

767
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: It's called The Golf Course or he found it in

768
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: his basement and gave it to me. And it's so funny.

769
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: It's got like all the golf course in America and

770
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: the architect and like there are still many that are off.

771
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 2: Like they've got Short Acres in Chicago, which is a

772
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 2: seth Rayner listed as an Alison. It's like, you know,

773
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: how do they How does somebody think that Rainer's work

774
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,760
Speaker 2: was Allison's? They're like completely different.

775
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so at least and unfortunately, I mean in reality,

776
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: some court not all courses. I mean some new courses

777
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: you could you could pretty confidently say who did it.

778
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, some courses kind of read like the credits

779
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: to a film, you know, I mean, you don't list

780
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: twenty people and which clearly no one's going to do.

781
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know. I kind of get a

782
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: bit over the whole trying to label every every course

783
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: to a particular person or people. I just I wouldn't

784
00:45:58,520 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: bother myself believe it.

785
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: So a lot of my listeners are in America. And

786
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: if if you were going down, if you're an American

787
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 2: going to Australia and you got seven days and it's

788
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: ye probably the only day, the only time in your

789
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: life you're going to go. What what golf courses are

790
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 2: you playing?

791
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: Well, it's you really have to come to Melbourne and

792
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: I would those four that I mentioned before, you would

793
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: play the two courses at real Melbourne. Absolutely it's like

794
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: Kingston eight and.

795
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 2: We'll say a couple of thirty six holidays, not all

796
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: thirty six holidays, okay.

797
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: So well we're all Melbourne. You can do in a day.

798
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: Let's call that a sety six whole day. So it's

799
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: one day Victoria and another Metropolitan, another Kingston Heath another, so

800
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: that's four days. I would then fly to Bamboo Dunes.

801
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: You've got to play barmber woodeons and Lost Farm down there.

802
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: Then on the day or two left, you could go

803
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: to king Ireland. Selfishly, I would say you've got to

804
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: come and play penincially Kingswood because it'll be finished by then.

805
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: But it's always a tricky one because people ask us

806
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 1: that question, would you go? But it's so it's such

807
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: a big country and not that i'm you know, there's

808
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: not the depth of golf in the other major cities

809
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: as there is in Melbourne. I mean you could extend

810
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: that if you wanted and play ten courses on the

811
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: sand belt, whereas if you went to New So if

812
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: you went to Sydney, you know you might play New

813
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: South Wales and perhaps the Lakes. That's two. You know,

814
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: if you went to Queensland, you're probably playing Royal Queensland

815
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 1: maybe maybe one other. And Perth there's really like Karen

816
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: up Adelaide, there's Royal Adelaide and maybe one or two other.

817
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: So there's just not the depth. So to really get

818
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: bang for your back, I think you're better off staying

819
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,959
Speaker 1: in one place and doing it properly rather than trying

820
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: to fly all around the country. So I think it's

821
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: been knowing up guys pretty much. Did that trip. I

822
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: think it was Melbourne, predominantly Melbourne and then go down

823
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 1: to Tasmania.

824
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it looked like an awesome trip.

825
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: We're constantly here, you know, it's on my bucket least.

826
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether I'll ever get You've just got

827
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: to suck it. Up and get on a plane. I mean,

828
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: it's not that far. A couple of movies, a bit

829
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: of a sleep in your hear.

830
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my buddies is trying to get me

831
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 2: to go next year or like this next holidays, so

832
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: maybe we'll see. I got a lot of places to

833
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: go every podcast, so add another place to where I

834
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 2: want to go. But what's like the is there any

835
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 2: like hidden gems that are worth seeing that nobody ever

836
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: goes and sees.

837
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 1: There's a couple in New Zealand. Definitely, not many people

838
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: see Paraparau. It's a really good links course. It's a

839
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: fantastic golf course. And there's another course way on the

840
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: southern tip of New Zealand, which is a Lynx course.

841
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: It's probably me think, I mean, there are some courses

842
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: around it, certainly to an American they would never have

843
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: heard of that are worth seeing, but you just probably

844
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't do them in your seven days because there's too

845
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: much other good golf.

846
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 2: Gotcha, it's is Tigarragi any good? The Mackenzie down there

847
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: in New Zealand.

848
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: Tittering, Yeah, yeah, apparently so they restored they did a

849
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,959
Speaker 1: lot of work there ten years ago. Apparently I haven't

850
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: seen it since, but apparently very good. Yeah, you know,

851
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: and then of course you've got the new courses there

852
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: as well, which are you know, really good. So you

853
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: could easily do a trip, a separate trip to New

854
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: Zealand in seven days.

855
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 2: It's not that far, too, right.

856
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: No, it's it's a it's like flying to Perth from here.

857
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 1: It's like a three hour flight from the New Zealand.

858
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 3: It's not at all.

859
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 2: You just need a month, really, you need a month.

860
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: You need it would be better. I mean it's a

861
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: long way to come for seven days, I will say that, Yeah,

862
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: I mean you're just getting over jet lag and then

863
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: you're going home again. If you could stretch it to

864
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: two or three weeks, that would be better.

865
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we'd be we'd be messing out if we

866
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 2: didn't talk about your sketches. And I mean, oh, okay,

867
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 2: you're one of the the world's four front golf sketchers.

868
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: How did were you just always good at at drawing?

869
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was always interested in it. My dad was

870
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: an artist, so he taught art at school, so he

871
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: was teacher. So when I was young, I mean I

872
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: had a teacher right there at home. So, and I

873
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: enjoyed sketching, so he would sort of show me basics

874
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: perspective and if I got you know, if I was

875
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: drawing something for a school project, he would sort of

876
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: show me perhaps a better way of doing it. So

877
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: I kind of picked it up and put it down

878
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: over the years, but never really seriously did it. And

879
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: to be honest, it was only when I got into

880
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: golf course design there was a reason suddenly to draw,

881
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: because it was very helpful I think when I first

882
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: started working in it, because no one else really could draw.

883
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: It was an advantage to if I had an idea

884
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: for a whole to be able to get a bit

885
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: of paper and draw it on it in the field

886
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: and say what do you think of this? Suddenly it

887
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 1: was something that everyone could see and everyone could understand,

888
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: and it was a really good way of getting your

889
00:51:54,360 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: point across, whereas otherwise, you know, everyone's just pointing. It

890
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: put me at various things and as it was confusing,

891
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: so there was a reason to draw. And then you know,

892
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: if you're in a committee room or sometimes I would

893
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: draw for a plan, you know, to like do a

894
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: worked up sort of drawing to do as part of

895
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: a presentation, so I think that certainly got me interested

896
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: in it again. And then it's then when Barbougle Dunes

897
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: was built, Richard, the owner wanted a course guide. He

898
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: wanted a yardage book. And I'd done ones before when

899
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: I was playing just sort of all little ones and this,

900
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: but suddenly this needed to be like a commercially produced one.

901
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: I was pretty comfortable I could do it, and that

902
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: was really the first one I did. And then out

903
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: of that just not really I didn't really ever advertise,

904
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: but just word of mouth, people asked me to do

905
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: other course guides, and then I was quite keen to

906
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: get to improve my proper painting, so not just horse

907
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: guide drawings, but actual landscapes and things, and so I

908
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 1: just over particularly the last ten years, I've probably spent

909
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: a bit more time doing it. And yeah, I mean

910
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: I don't have as much time to do it as

911
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: I would like. I tend it's only when people ask

912
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 1: me to do a painting or commission me to do something,

913
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 1: it tends to sort of maybe a panic and think, okay,

914
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: now now I've really got a knuckle down. So that

915
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: kind of forces me to really spend my spare time

916
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: painting for a month until I can produce something that's

917
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: really good and then yeah, but then it's not like

918
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm sitting at home each night just yeah with the

919
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: paints out, sketching and the like. But yeah, well to

920
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: enjoy it.

921
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got to have a life too. You can't get.

922
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: And because we've been so busy, it's just yeah, I

923
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: probably haven't spent as much time doing it. But just

924
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: recently I did a friend wanted some gifts for he

925
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: took a group over to America, and so I did.

926
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: I did six kind of proper watercolors for him and

927
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: they turned out really well. So that was good because

928
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: I basically painted for two months doing those. It must

929
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: spare time, and it kind of I definitely got improved

930
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: at the end of it. I felt pretty good.

931
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 2: So I'm a I'm a horrendous draw sketcher, painter. What

932
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 2: would be the most basic, easy piece of advice for

933
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: somebody to get a little bit better?

934
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 1: Uh, I think you've got to understand perspective, I think really,

935
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: So you mean, like to draw a picture of a

936
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: hole as it looks like if you're standing out on

937
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: the golf course.

938
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like if I wanted a draw hole. I'm horrible.

939
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm a thirty handicap asking for a

940
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: tip on the range before a round right now.

941
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's really getting a photo if

942
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: you just got a photo of a golf hole of

943
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: the green and the bunkers and just kind of just

944
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: forget all the detail, but just look at very simply

945
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: where the flag sits the green, and just the rough

946
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: shape of the bunker and how the how perspective works.

947
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: You know, it's things that are closer or bigger, and

948
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: you know further away are smaller. Just having an understanding

949
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 1: of that would be very helpful.

950
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: That actually makes sense because if I drew on I

951
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: would make them all the same size.

952
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,760
Speaker 1: You know, and that sort of Yeah, you see people

953
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: and they don't kind of fill the page like you

954
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 1: see guys do a little sketch and it's this kind

955
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: of little bird scrawl in the middle or whatever over

956
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: on the edge. It's like, no, no, no, let's fill the page.

957
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: Let's see, you know, make the green. Just sort of

958
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: understanding the size of things, you know, how big a

959
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 1: flag is, how big a green is, how big a

960
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: person would be if it's standing on the green. Just

961
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: kind of understanding the sizes and the sky and just

962
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: how perspective works. That would you would go a long

963
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 1: way to improving your drawing. You don't have to worry

964
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: about I mean, even if you can't. You don't have

965
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: to be able to draw a lifelike people or life

966
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: like trees, but just a simple line drawing just to

967
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: kind of green and bunkers. It's so helpful. I mean,

968
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: that's where it's helpful I think in design is just

969
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 1: you don't have to be brilliant at it, but it's

970
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: very helpful to Like, if you're with someone on a

971
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: machine and you want them to build something that no

972
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: one looks in plan view, no one sort of really

973
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: understands if you draw something as though. It's because most

974
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: plans are all from the air, it's very hard for

975
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: people to understand how that translates to what's on the ground.

976
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 1: Whereas if you can just do a really simple drawing

977
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: in either in the dirt or on a bit of paper,

978
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: suddenly it all makes sense. You know, how high a

979
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: bunker lip's going to be, or the fact that, okay,

980
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: you can see the left half of the green but

981
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: not the right half of the ring because it's covered

982
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: by a bunker, or the bunker comes a third of

983
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: the way across the green, or you know those things

984
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 1: in a very simple sketch. Suddenly it's you can give

985
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: someone enough detail to spend the day building something that

986
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: means you can go off and do something else. That's

987
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: where it's really helpful.

988
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. It's uh, if you're just telling somebody,

989
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: they're gonna take your words and interpret them and their

990
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 2: head how they think that you want it.

991
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, we like to give

992
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: the guys a little license to be creative. But yeah,

993
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: if there's something that you really want, you know, we

994
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: want to make sure it's this or that. You know,

995
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: I'll do a little sketch and just sort of talk

996
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: through it and leave it with them.

997
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: So you ready for underrated? Overrated?

998
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: Sure, yep, go for it.

999
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 2: What everybody is waiting for, all right? Sand belt bunkering.

1000
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: I would say it's underrated in the world of golf,

1001
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: it's underrated, all right. I think that's I mean, here,

1002
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: we see it all the time, but the shaping and

1003
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: the way that the short grass works into the mets. Still,

1004
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: I think there's still so many clubs could learn from

1005
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: sand belt bunkering.

1006
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, just the mowing lines. Like even if you had

1007
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 2: a little bit closer to that, it would.

1008
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: Be yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't have to copy the

1009
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: sand belt bunkers, but understand why they work. Well, I think, yeah,

1010
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: totally underrated.

1011
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 2: Kangaroos as an animal.

1012
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: You underrated or overrated? Oh well, I don't know. Again, well,

1013
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: probably overrated for us we see them, well they're not. Yeah,

1014
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: we seem all the time, I guess. But think I

1015
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: think the rest of the world probably wants to see

1016
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: more kangaroos.

1017
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 2: That is the easiest thing to spot, like a tourist,

1018
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 2: seeing the way they react when they see a kangaroo right,

1019
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 2: because they are point.

1020
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: I mean, look, if you think about it, they're a

1021
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: really odd creature, like very strange, you know. I mean,

1022
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 1: there's not really anything like them anywhere else in the world.

1023
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: That guess.

1024
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 2: I mean.

1025
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: What I mean, they can be Yeah, they be too,

1026
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: some of them. So there's a there's a there's a

1027
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: gray kangaroo and a red kangaroo. The red kangaroos. You

1028
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 1: see the grays down here in Sydney and Melbourne. The

1029
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: red ones are in the outback and they are really

1030
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 1: when they stand up on their back feet, they are tall,

1031
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: and their their tail is so strong. You know, they

1032
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: can kill like a dog, like whipping the dog and

1033
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: then they'll claw at them, so they can be mean.

1034
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: They're quite intimidating when you see when standing up on

1035
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: it behind lakes. I've played golf tournaments before where you know,

1036
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: you hit your ball need the kangaroos and you kind

1037
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: of you don't really want to go in there and

1038
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: get it. So they're pretty intimidating.

1039
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 2: They're kind of like the Australian swan.

1040
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess yes, one's a pretty Uh they

1041
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: can be I.

1042
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 2: Think they can break your arm with their neck. Yeah,

1043
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 2: oh really yeah, if they snapped their neck, they can

1044
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: break a human arm. Wow. Yeah, of course. I grew

1045
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 2: up Caddy and at had like the meanest swan in

1046
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 2: the world in one of their pints, and like the

1047
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 2: thing like you'd be walking like twenty yards away from

1048
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 2: the water edge and the thing would be hissing at you.

1049
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: It was you know, and then one kid broke his

1050
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: arm from the swan and that swan was gone. So

1051
01:00:53,160 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: let's get back on here. Overrated Underrated golf in Japan.

1052
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: I've never played there. I would say overrated. I reckon

1053
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: it's that Let me think about that, because there's a

1054
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: couple of great courses there I've always wanted to see,

1055
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: but that I think they're a long way from where

1056
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: they were from by all accounts, I'm going to say overrated.

1057
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 2: Maybe a place that's right for restoration of the another

1058
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 2: like Alison.

1059
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: Did it good. So it's like, yeah, there's there's certainly

1060
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: three or four that you know, by all accounts, worth seeing,

1061
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: but they're just you can a bit like you know,

1062
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: perhaps like La Country Club was before the restoration. Yeah,

1063
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: you can kind of tell the bones of a great

1064
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: course are there, but it's just needs a bit of

1065
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: work to get back.

1066
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 2: Is there anywhere like in Asia, like or Southeast Asia

1067
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: that's like got sandy soil that the world hasn't found

1068
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 2: yet for golf.

1069
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about Southeast I mean, well, actually East

1070
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: the world's founded, but the east coast of Vietnam where

1071
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: there's quite a few courses being built. There's some really

1072
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: good sand dunes there all the way out. Greg Norman's

1073
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: group did a course there, unbelievable sand dunes, huge ho tram.

1074
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: It's called home trend links, unbelievable site, beautiful site. So

1075
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 1: there are pockets. I mean we used to think twenty

1076
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: or thirty years ago, you know, you didn't necessarily think

1077
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: of Asia as having all these great sites, but they do.

1078
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: You know, there's some really good land through through Vietnam, China,

1079
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: there's some really good sites. So they're around absolutely, and

1080
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: there's some really good sites in Australia. It's just that

1081
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: we don't have the population too, you know, the build

1082
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: it and they will come kind of concept. Is it's

1083
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 1: hard here, you know, we just don't have the population

1084
01:02:55,760 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: base of America really to make it work. Yeah, but

1085
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: there's some Perths very This is some brilliant land in

1086
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: perse up and down the coast where you can drive

1087
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: an hour up north of Perth and it is incredible

1088
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: land on the water, sandy ground, undulating, beautiful vegetation. But

1089
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 1: they built a number of years ago, they built a

1090
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 1: really good golf course over there, only forty minutes from person.

1091
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 1: No one goes there to play, so you can't convince

1092
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: them to go. Great so you could, you could build

1093
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: a sand valley, but just trying to get the people

1094
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: there to be the challenge.

1095
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 2: As a Chicago. I live in the City of Chicago.

1096
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: It's like a minimum of forty minutes for me to

1097
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 2: golf anywhere. And if I could put golf on as

1098
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 2: a coast on Sandy on Sandy Ground, I'd be like

1099
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 2: forty minutes done.

1100
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: So well. Yeah, and that's that's the challenge for those

1101
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: courses on King Island, you know, the two that were built.

1102
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: They're spectacular, but you've either got to get on a

1103
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: little plane to get there, which is not everyone's kind

1104
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: of cup of tea. But yeah, and they time, the

1105
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: island's got fifteen hundred people on it, so there's not

1106
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: enough people on the island to play there to just

1107
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: keep it, you know, ticking along. So it's just hard,

1108
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: you know, really hard for those isolated courses to get

1109
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: the traffic.

1110
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's almost everywhere. But you know,

1111
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 2: they also don't have like the big American budgets that

1112
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 2: tell everybody that this is the greatest course ever before

1113
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 2: it's open.

1114
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

1115
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:41,959
Speaker 2: It's but Mike, thanks for coming on, and we'll look

1116
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 2: forward to seeing more of your work in the future.

1117
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 2: You're on Twitter and what is it at, Mike Cocking.

1118
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 1: Oh my Twitter, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and.

1119
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 2: Then you're are you on INSTAGRAMM golf one as well, Yeah,

1120
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 2: o CCM Golf at OCCM golf, and then they're on Twitter.

1121
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 2: Lots of great pictures of golf courses that make you

1122
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 2: kind of drool.

1123
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic.

1124
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 2: Look forward to seeing some of your work in the

1125
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 2: near future.

1126
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:15,959
Speaker 1: Terrific. Thanks so much, Andy, Thanks Mike.

1127
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 2: You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. We do

1128
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 2: the digging for you.