WEBVTT - Amy Nelson 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:06.800 Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.640 What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. This is a 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:18.520 personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.599 and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:27.200 Thursday or join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:33.159 Her Story Podcast. Hi everyone, this is Sam and Today 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:38.120 I am interviewing my podcast partner and dear friend, Amy Nelson, 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.120 who has gone through big public turmoil and she was 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.720 brave enough to do this interview with me today so 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.199 that we can all learn from it. But this is 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.000 an ongoing legal case, so there are certain topics that 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.680 were out of bounds. And of course this is part one. 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.040 There will be a part two of the Amy Nelson's Story, 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.800 but it won't be coming next week. It will be 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.920 coming one Part two unfold. So Amy, thank you for 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.679 sharing your story with us today. Thank you. I will 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.559 try my best to do it. It's hard to talk about, 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.240 as you know, so Amy, give us a sense of 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.640 what your life was like just two and a half 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.720 years ago. It was fun, so I was living in 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.360 Seattle with my husband Carl, and my four daughters, Sloan, Reese, Merritt, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.959 and Holland. I think Sloan would have been five then five, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.959 and Holland was a baby, right she wasn't even walking, 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.040 um still breastfeeding. I was scaling my company, the Riveter. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.160 I think we had about a hundred employees at that point. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.680 We had gone from an idea to a hundred employees 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:43.240 in about thirty months, which was wild and hard but exhilarating. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.240 I was always on a plane criss crossing the country 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.080 from Seattle for to open new riveters. We were in 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.040 six states. I was, you know, writing a column for Ink. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.600 It was a lot. So it sounds like your life 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.480 was a lot of fun. My life was a lot 0:01:57.520 --> 0:01:58.840 of fun. I mean it was hard, but it was 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.000 like hard of my by my own making, right, Like 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:02.680 I was the one who was like, oh, I want 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:04.520 to start a company, I want to have four kids, 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:06.480 I want to do all of this crazy stuff all 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.240 at once, right, So it was I mean, it was magical. 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.800 Like I remember thinking at my forty birthday, which was 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:17.240 an early like how did I get this lucky? Okay? 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.880 And then in April of the pandemic had just begun 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.560 a month or two earlier, and your entire world changed. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.480 What happened. So on the morning of April two, which 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.880 was about from from my family, like two and a half, 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:37.799 three weeks into the pandemic, at around six in the morning, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.040 there was a knock on our door, and of course 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:42.280 I was like, who the hell is that at my 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.920 door at six in the morning. And we have we 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.840 had a glass door. We live in a busy street 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.400 and had a glass door. We just bought our house. 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.320 It was the first house we bought. We bought it 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:56.000 in and I go to the door and there's a 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.800 woman and a man, and I kind of and I 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.480 was I had Holland on a hip and her diaper, 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:05.519 she's just woken up. And I looked out the door 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.200 and I was like, who are these people? And then 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.440 the woman flashed a bed and it said FBI. And 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.440 I opened the door and they said we're here to 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.799 talk to your husband, Carlton Nelson, and I said okay, 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.560 and I yelled for Carl and he came over. And 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.120 I looked at Carl and he looked at the agents. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.400 And I'm a lawyer, Sam, as you know, I practiced 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.079 law for a decade and I said to my husband 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:27.880 and go, Carl, you cannot talk to these people without 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.200 a lawyer, like no matter what. And I was just 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.680 like public service announcement. Law enforcement never wants to talk 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:35.520 to you like on a friendly basis. Get a lawyer, 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.560 no matter what. People feel like, if they get a lawyer, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.080 it means they've done something wrong. It doesn't. A lawyer 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.120 protects her interests. But my husband said, I'm just I'm 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.680 fine to talk to them for a minute. So he 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.640 took them upstairs and you talked to them, and they 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.960 asked him a few questions. And they asked him if 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.840 you knew about this business entity and he said, you know, 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:56.320 I know of it, but I don't know a lot 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.880 about it. And he said, well, this is your chance 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.360 to to to back up. This is your chance to 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.400 save yourself. We know everything. And my husband was like what, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:06.520 And then he said, you know what, I need to 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.840 talk to my lawyer. And they left. And then but 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:11.720 before they left, they handed him a couple of letters 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.119 telling him he was the target of a federal investigation 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.000 in the Eastern District of Virginia related to his former 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:22.560 employment at Amazon Web Services, and that started everything. What 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.720 had Carl been doing at Amazon? Carl worked at Amazon 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.120 Web Services, which is Amazon's division that builds the Internet. Really, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.200 the Internet lives in these big warehouses called data centers, 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.960 and they're full of the the servers that power the Internet. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:41.480 Amazon Web Services powers of the Internet. So like huge company, right, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.039 And my husband started at Amazon Web Services, and it 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.359 was about five thousand employees, very small, and he spent 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.000 seven years there. Their revenue grew like a hundred x 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.640 or something in that time, something crazy um. And he 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.760 worked in real estate, so he helped the company and 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:00.880 the people who made the di visions. He helped them 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:02.600 figure out like if they should buy a piece of 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.680 land to build a data center, or if they should 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.440 work with a developer to lease data center space. So 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.159 he worked on that stuff. How did you and Carl meet? 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.520 Carl and I met in I had moved to Minneapolis 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.440 from New York, which is like a big move for me. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:19.160 I was thirty one and wanted to move back to 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.360 the Midwest where I grew up. And I met this 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.599 wonderful woman named Molly sam who you know. And she 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.200 was also a lawyer and had lived in New York 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.160 and we were chatting and like the first day we met, 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:32.880 she was like, you know, you just you need to 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.599 meet my older brother's best friend. And I was like why. 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:37.520 She's like, you guys, will just I just I can't 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.640 explain it, but you need to meet him. And she 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.080 introduced us, and that's my husband, you know, Like we 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:47.400 just we met for the first time in September. We 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.680 went out for drinks and then we just we were 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.520 always together after that. What did you love about him? 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:57.440 He's brilliant, He's so kind and generous, kindest, most loyal 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.080 person you'd ever meet. He is so smart, are so ambitious, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:03.680 and he's like we just share the same values, right. 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.320 We both were people who wanted to live a big life, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.960 and like felt that we could both live our big lives, 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.960 come together and build something great. But both do really 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:13.960 big things on our own. And I'll say that I 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.400 think like for a woman to find a partner like that, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.880 like it's not the dynamic you're told that you're going 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.760 to have in America, right, And like that was just 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.480 I mean, Carl has supported me and every big thing 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.400 I've done and like pushed me to do it, not 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.640 just supported me. But been like, of course you can 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.159 do this. I remember when I started the riveter, he said, 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:32.880 if you're going to take the bats swinging as hard 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.920 as you can, right, and like that's just that's his personality. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.640 So the FBI comes to your door. And what happened 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.479 after that? When did you realize this is not a 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.560 one day thing. I realized it immediately. This is where 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:47.600 fortunate you're a lawyer, and like I will say, every 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:51.320 step of every day, like, I don't think we would 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.640 have survived this far if I wasn't a lawyer, because 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.080 we had access to other lawyers that I could call 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.920 and get advice from. I am a trained litigator and 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.400 trained to fight, and trained to find the facts, you know, 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.279 all of these things. But he got a letter saying 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.040 he was a target of a federal investigation. And when 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.560 you're under federal investigation, you can be a target, a subject, 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:12.960 or witness. It's all very form like, it's very formal. 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.000 There's like this whole there's this whole prosecutorial industry in 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.040 this country that I didn't even know about. I don't 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:22.040 say that fliquantly, like it is big business. And I 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:24.120 told this lawyer that I used to work with in 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.080 New York. I was He's like, read the letter to me, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:27.880 and I read it, and they're like, Carl's a target. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.120 And generally when you get a target letter, you are 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.240 indicted for a federal crime within sixty days. They think 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.400 you committed a crime and it's going And so we 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:39.960 hired a lawyer. And I will tell you the first 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.360 law firm that we hired fired Carl after two weeks 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.400 because they represented Amazon and other matters, which was like, 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.960 that was terrifying and traumatic, and we wasted a lot 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.640 of money. We hired great lawyers. And I will also 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.000 say that Carl immediately wanted to talk to Amazon because 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.400 he was like, what is going on here? Like he 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.320 could not understand this. So he has tried to speak 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.200 to Amazon directly multiple times over the past two years. 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.120 Nothing to hide. Tell us, in layman's terms, what this 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.520 case is about, and what it is that Carl has 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.680 been accused of. Amazon accused my husband of a very 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.840 specific crime called private sector honest services fraud. It is 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.920 depriving your private employer of your quote honest services. So 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:28.040 they allege that my husband steered data center leases to 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.840 a certain developer in exchange for kickback payments, so that 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.200 is their accusation. Um, they made it. I now know 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.120 in tandem with a group called IPI, which is a 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.280 billionaire investment fund led by Zuckerberg, Jack Dorsey, a lot 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.560 of billionaires. I PI and Amazon accused my husband of 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.160 this crime to the FBI. That's the allegation. And I 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:52.920 will say it too because I think it's important and 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.400 I always say this, you said this case. The government 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.560 has never charged my husband. It's like there is no 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.800 criminal case. There's just allegation. So over two years in 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.360 there's just allegations. So every day do you wake up 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.520 hoping he'll just be charged with something so life can 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.880 move on. I hope it ends. I hope that. I mean, 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.480 I've always hoped that the the Amazon would speak to him directly. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.640 It is surprising to me that the company would choose 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:19.840 to spend millions of dollars on lawyers rather than speak 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:21.800 directly to an employee that worked for them for seven 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.240 and a half years and has nothing to hide. That's 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.160 frustrating to me endlessly. Seattle is a small community and 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.240 we know a lot of the people at Amazon, so 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.920 talk to us about the financial burden this has cast 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.080 on your family. Amazon took your money. It feels like 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.640 Amazon took our money. But I'll just go to the 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.640 basics of this because I didn't understand this the day 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.520 the FBI came to our house in April. The other 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.000 letter they handed my husband said we intend to see 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.760 these bank accounts from you, and I was like, what 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.880 the hell is this? Like, they're just going to take 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.880 our money. And there's a practice in America called civil 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:05.240 forfeiture where law enforcement authorities can seize your money on 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.360 the suspicion of a crime. They do not have to 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.200 prove a crime. They do not have to charge you 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.720 with a crime. They can take your money and say 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.960 your money as a crime, and then you have to 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:19.560 hire lawyers to fight to get it back. In May, 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.440 so um, a month and a half after the FBI came, 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.280 the federal government on a random Tuesday, took all of 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.160 the money out of our bank accounts, every dollar. And 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.160 I think, I mean, I went from like, well, they 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.280 also they took it from our lawyer's client trust account. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.400 And you know, I didn't know it at the time, 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.360 but this is a prosecutorial tool to get you to 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.560 plead guilty. Percent of people who are accused of a 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.360 federal crime, plead guilty. We don't really have a jury 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.400 system in America. We have a plead guilty system. And 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.319 there are certain things prosecutors can do when you don't 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.080 plead guilty you to get you to plead guilty. One 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.280 of them is lead you penniless. So not only can 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.839 you not feed your family, you cannot defend yourself in court. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.480 So they took all of our money. And I will 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.360 say after the two months after they took all of 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.720 our money, Amazon, knowing the government had taken all of 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.199 our money based on their accusations, Amazon then sued my husband. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.920 I mean, it's it's very cruel for what. Oh, they 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.840 have student my husband for like ten things so Rico, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.920 which is like a criminal gang. Right, the Rico statute 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:28.080 was for the mafia so Rico, which with racketeering. And 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.240 when you when you choose someone a rico, it's basically 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.800 a civil way for like you or I Sam to 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.679 say someone committed a crime. So same thing private sector 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.480 on his services road. They also alleged that my husband, 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:45.240 my husband violated federal antitrust laws. They said he rigged 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.040 land prices. I mean, my husband's great, but I don't 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.320 think that any single human could rig land prices. So Amy, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.760 what exactly happened when your money was taken? I mean, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.280 how does a family of six survive that? We're really lucky? 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.200 I guess is the is the way, and I shouldn't 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.319 feel that way. I feel lucky that we have survived, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.160 even though the money never should have been taken. I 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.440 mean very specifically, after the government came on April twod 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.160 we opened another bank account and started putting our earnings 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:14.800 in that new bank accounts. So they didn't get that 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.760 one bank account. They took literally everything else. Carl was 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.120 able to work. He was a very successful consultant in 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.680 real estate development at the time, and he was able 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.440 to work until August when the accusations became very public. 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.040 So we had some money coming in. I had my 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.959 riveter salary for a while, and then we started selling things. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:41.000 We liquidated retirement, we sold our car, and then eventually 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.160 I realized in October of that we needed to sell 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.880 our house quickly. What was that decision like for you? I, 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:55.120 you know, I just have kept moving. It's hard, it's hard, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.000 like to stop and think about it, but like that 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.360 was the house I thought my girls would grow weapon. 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.839 We worked so hard for the domb payment for that house. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.960 And at that point you'd also become kind of a 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.599 very well known person in Seattle. You're one of the 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.360 most high profile entrepreneurs there. You'd added so many jobs 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:18.360 to the economy, and then almost overnight, you're selling a 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.040 home and basically saying goodbye to a life that you'd 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.640 created in this city. Yeah, and we just left, like 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.840 we're really fortunate. I had a good friend who had 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:31.960 helped us buy the house, and I called her and 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:33.440 she knew what we were going through, and I said, 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.880 we have to sell this and like I'm not capable 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:42.839 of like doing anything, and um so we had just 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.600 like did everything. You know. We got movers and paying 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.600 for the movers was hard, right, Like they're all these things, 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:51.839 Like we had to find a way to pay for 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.000 the movers, which is a lot of money, and we 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.240 put our stuff in storage. I had to find someone 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.720 to take our dog. But we we just and we 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.360 had some good friends. But we left Seattle in our 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.480 minivan with like five backs and where do you go? 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:16.200 It was raining? Um So, I mean that was kind 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:17.760 of the big question. I was like, where do we 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:23.440 go because it was the pandemic and we have four kids, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.480 poor babies, and my dad. You know, I wanted to 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.240 go home to Ohio, but my dad had a kidney 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:36.880 transplant in April, about two weeks after everything started for us, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.840 and so my dad, as a kidney transplant recipient, had 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.240 to be so so careful with COVID, so we couldn't. 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.520 We literally just couldn't go to Ohio. My sister lived 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.000 in San Francisco, and I just didn't see how we 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.280 could stay there for a long time with her. My 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.480 brother in law lived in a condo in Chicago, so 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.920 that was out. And we were really luck because Carl's 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.120 dad and step mom lived in Honolulu, so we could 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:08.120 stay with them. So we drove to California and stayed 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.680 with my sister for a month in her basement, and 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.920 then we flew to Honolulu. At the height of the 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:17.720 Second Wave. I put all my kids on a plane, 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.560 which was really scary. There were ten people on the plane. 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:25.040 I mean, it was when nobody was going anywhere. And 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:29.880 we flew to Honolulu and we stayed there until August. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:35.080 So we were there from November of until August, and 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.400 then you returned to Columbus, Ohio. We did. We returned 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.600 to Columbus, Ohio. You know, I think we would have 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:45.360 stayed in Honolulu, maybe a little bit longer. But I 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.800 took on a role to help launch a company in 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.840 New York and so, and we desperately needed that money, 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.920 and so it was really I was commuting between Honolulu 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.920 and New York for a few months, which was impossible 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.880 to your job at sax Works. So we went to 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.040 Ohio and I was able to fly to New York 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.160 every Monday to Thursday while I was launching the company 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:11.000 A quick break, so Amy and thinking about the girls. 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.480 How disruptive has this been to their lives? How have 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.560 you shielded them from all of this? So, you know, Sam, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.720 it's really interesting. They are now seven, five, four and two. 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:22.880 So this has been going on for the majority of 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.840 my baby's life, right, and then my rest is about 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.240 to have her third birthday, with this going on until 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.720 turns six. I know that I haven't shielded it from 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:38.600 them completely. It's impossible. People always tell me I'm handling 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.320 this with such grace, but I'm not. It's ugly, it's messy, 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.760 it's scary. But I read a lot of books when 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:45.880 I was a kid, and I read a lot of 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.960 books growing up in my twenties and thirties, and I 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.920 love adventure stories, and so I tried to treat it 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.320 like an adventure with the kids. They got to see 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.160 all these different places and go on all these big adventures. 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.160 And we've tried to really free meant like that, and 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.040 I think it's mostly worked. How do you mom on 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.680 the days when you just feel hopeless? The mothering has 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.480 saved me because you know, you've got these four little girls, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:13.680 and like, I have these four little girls, and so 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.160 I've always felt that, like if our life is over, 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.800 me and girl, like they could still have a life. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:28.640 So I had to give them everything and like all 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:33.200 the love I had. Also, when we got back to Ohio, 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.359 I had my parents, and on the hardest days, my 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.840 parents could help. How has this change your friendships and 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:45.360 your relationships? Have you lost friends and gone closer to others? 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.320 What does this kind of crisis due to those relationships 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.280 you realize who your friends are. That's the easiest way 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:57.800 to put it, Like, um, friendship is not something that 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.679 we have when it's just convenient, like you have to 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.439 be a friend, and hard times too and my friends 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.680 have been remarkable like you, I mean like you basically 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:09.760 some days just like forced to me to just do 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.680 things right, which is a good friend. But I've lost 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.679 some friends, and I definitely know there are people who 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.680 there are a lot of people in the world who, 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.560 when someone is accused of the crime, think they committed it. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.159 And I know that Amazon knows that. So let's go 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.320 back to that for a minute. Was there ever a 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:35.040 time when you doubted your husband's innocence, even in the 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:40.640 very beginning? Absolutely not. No, my husband would never do 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.360 anything he thought was illegal. So where is everything today? 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:49.800 What's next? Well, it's interesting, Sam, because the Amazon civil 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.479 case where Amazon sued my husband was in discovery. So 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.919 that means, for the first time in years, my husband's 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.000 lawyers and my husband are seeing all of the documents 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:07.080 around Amazon's allegations, including the documents that they shared with 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.520 the Department of Justice in their effort to get Carl 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.359 charged with a crime. So that's in discovery, and soon 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.680 Carl's lawyers will depose, which means kind of like interview 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.760 under oath, all of the Amazon executives that are accusing 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.199 my husband of a crime. And then I don't know 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.920 what's happening with the government investigation, you don't really get 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.320 insight into that. Carl's never been charged with a crime. 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.919 But with the civil forfeiture yesterday, we learned that we 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.800 were getting almost all of our money back. So twenty 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:43.040 one months after the government took it, and after you know, 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.640 we sold everything and we've tried to survive and navigate, 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.160 paying for lawyers to defend ourselves against Amazon, we're getting 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.199 the money back. And when is that going to hit 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.240 your account? I know that the government filed emotion that 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:56.639 they were giving it back to us, and then the 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.800 judge has to, I think, sign off on the motion 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.880 and then we call the U. S. Marshal Service who 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.399 has our money, and get it back. Amy. I can't 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.960 help but think this is uncanny timing because just earlier 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.720 this week you launched a go fund Me campaign to 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.680 pay for your family's legal bills, which, if mounted, I 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.680 don't even know how much a month you're spending in 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:23.880 legal bills right now, between forty and fifty dollars. It's shocking. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.120 So it's not surprising that of people plead guilty when 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.960 there's a forfeiture, because I mean, who could afford that nobody. 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.600 And I will say, there, there weren't many months we've 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.680 been spending that much. But now to defend ourselves. I'm 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:39.320 not in the Amazon all sup. But for Carl to 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:43.040 defend himself against Amazon, it's that much. And I will say, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.680 you know, Amazon's lawyers are around a thousand dollars an hour. 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.320 They use a very big fancy law firm called Gibson Done, 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:50.600 who Facebook hires and Apple hires all the big tech 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.679 companies higher and their lawyers are a thousand dollars an 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.640 hour and they have like five lawyers on every call. 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.040 So Amazon is spending untold millions of dollars on this. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:03.760 So earlier this week he launched a go fund me 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.800 campaign and how many people have contributed to that Almost 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:12.800 three hundred, which is like, you know, I feel like 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.480 Amazon has been so loud and calling my husband a 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.600 criminal for so many years that I feel like people 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.400 just assume he is, or people assume he's been charged 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.840 with a crime when he hasn't. And so for all 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.760 of these people some I know, some I don't, to 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:30.920 support him is like, it's amazing. Do you think that 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.800 the timing of getting your money back like there had 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:38.040 to be an association with you know, the government or 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.280 Amazon seeing the go fund me campaign, I don't, I 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.119