1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to stuff I 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: never told your production of iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: And welcome to another activist around the world. And we 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: are still in the middle of Hispanic Heritage Month, so 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: we are continuing on with featuring Latina activists and advocates 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 2: and today we are talking about the works of Amarantha 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: Gomez Rogalado. So before we start, let's go ahead and 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: put this here. We are talking about mouchet, which I'm 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: going to give a little more definitions in a minute. 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: So they are technically thought of as a third gender 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: within the Zappotech, which is an indigenous group within the 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: Mexican communities. So didn't find and I probably would have 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: to do a little more deep dive as to specifically 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: whether or not trans is appropriate. I think for the 15 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: lack of terms within English and Spanish, they go with 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: transactivists for Ruggalado and a lot of mouchet identifying people. 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: Just note that is not the same thing, and I 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: think that's something that we need to make sure that 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: we talk about, especially when it comes to indigenous communities, 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: which have existed way before any of these terminologies wherever 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: created or heard of. So we want to put that 22 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 2: as a note here. So if you hear us talking 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: about trans, I don't know if that's just like an 24 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: interpretation from different types of documents or research papers. I 25 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 2: believe Ruggolato uses the term trans transsexual, trans community as well, 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: but if you look at the broader scope, you know 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,919 Speaker 2: that's again debatable. I think, and we are a show 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: that continues to grow and continues to change with the 29 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: preferences and terminologies, that is a better identify. So you know, 30 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: maybe five years down the road and we come back 31 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: to this twenty twenty five episode will be like, I 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: can't believe you said that. This is what we're working 33 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: with today. Just to note that, as well as the 34 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: fact with them being mouche, I believe a majority of 35 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 2: references when we're talking about ragul Lotto they do say she. 36 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: I have not seen anywhere in which they identifies themselves 37 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: as she or they, But just to keep it safe 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: for myself, when I reference them, I'm going to say 39 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: they or them. And then if you hear me use 40 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 2: the term she, it is because it is written in 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 2: a quote. So with all of that big caveat, let's 42 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: jump into it. So Ragolatto is a social anthropologist who 43 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: actually graduated in twenty sixteen with their thesis on mouche. 44 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: So Muche is a term that was first noted to 45 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: be used in the sixteenth century, which is a ginger 46 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: neutral term within this Zeppotech culture, which is a part 47 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: of the Wahaca, Mexican area. The term is for a 48 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: person who was assigned as mel at birth but lives 49 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: in a more feminine gender role. So the culture is 50 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: so big that they even have almost like their own 51 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: identifying clothing. It's beautiful dresses and like it is very 52 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: Mexican culture, like we know, those kinds of brightly colored 53 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: dresses and a little bit of a petticoat as they 54 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: would call it underneath because the skirts a little flu fear. 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: But they do seem to identify in that, especially when 56 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: it comes to like celebrations with including mauches. There is 57 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: a pretty big population in the Zapotech culture that do 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: identify as moche. I'm I say big, I mean, like 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: they're noted. They are also known to be a third 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: gender within this culture. So it's not just binary that 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: and more, and of course we talk about the spectrum, 62 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: you know, it's so much more. But here there is 63 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: this as the third gender. It's also important to know 64 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: that before the Spanish colonization, they don't have records of much, 65 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: so the likelihood that the moush was known and existed 66 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: beforehand is high. Like we know there's always been trans people, 67 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: and that's kind of that same lane of like there's 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: probably always been mouche people, but they just don't note 69 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: it because colonization. Yeah. Also one more thing, there are 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: several different terms and words within the zeppotech culture that 71 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 2: are gender neutral, so that's something big. And the cultural 72 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: things like musche is a celebration of the culture in itself. 73 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: So I think we've talked about that when we talk 74 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: about two spirits within the American indigenous culture or the 75 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: North American cultures. Within the indigenous communities, they've always existed. 76 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 2: We've talked about that that's always been a thing, and 77 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 2: that in itself is a celebration of their own culture. 78 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: So that's kind of put it in context when we're 79 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: talking about the mouche culture. Sogolato first came out as 80 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: trans or muche at the age of thirteen, and they 81 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: have been a fierce advocate who has traveled all around 82 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: the world speaking out for the rights of their community. 83 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: In fact, they already made a name for themselves for 84 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: their work in gender identity and HIV care work in 85 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: two thousand and two, like they were already known for 86 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: this work. And what makes Rauguolotta's work so significant is 87 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: that they not only highlighted the cultural significance and impact 88 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: of their indigenous community, but they became the first mouchet 89 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: to get their professional degree and be legally recognized by 90 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: their university, the University of Averacruz. So here's a bit 91 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: from that university site. Had a whole interview with them, 92 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: and so they say this with future plans to return 93 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: to activism, a role she's been pursuing since she was eighteen. 94 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: Amranda commented that although she initially considered studying psychology, she 95 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: ultimately chose anthropology because she was always surrounded by many 96 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: like minded people. She was drawn to the circle by 97 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: the discussion topics, the way of reflecting, and the ability 98 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: to analyze thinking question. Therefore, in twenty eleven, she arrived 99 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: in the city of Halapa, ready to begin her professional 100 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: studies and put aside her work as a member of 101 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: various activism networks. Which also involved constant travel to countries 102 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: in Europe and Latin America. We mouches in Huakatan Wuhaka 103 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: are not well accepted. One of Amaranta's challenges when she 104 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: began her research two years ago was confronting the community 105 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 2: and culture where she comes from. In this epithech community 106 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: of the Isthmus of Tauantepec Juakatan Whaka mouches are people 107 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: born male with assume feminine roles in the societal, sexual 108 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: and personal spheres. This status places them in terms of transvestites, 109 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: transgender women, and transsexuals. So again, this is kind of 110 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: where we came from the beginning of this conversation of 111 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: a rasure and cultural identity. So would I have a 112 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: hard time going back with saying that they are trans 113 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: activists is not fully true because obviously the intersectionality of 114 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 2: this is that they are also disabled because they actually 115 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: lost their arm at a young age in a correct 116 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: But they are in this intersectional level of being an 117 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: indigenous mouche identifying as well as disabled individual who has 118 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: worked their lives and making sure that these identities are 119 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: seen and not ignored, and they talk about their challenges 120 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: in their work. This was something very specific to them 121 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: that they wanted to make sure that the world understood 122 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: who they were. Then it wasn't necessarily a pushback on 123 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: any other types of groups of identifiers. It's just that 124 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: they were something different that was culturally more significant for 125 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: them to not be labeled as one specific thing. So 126 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: Ragalatto was very adamant in this type of work, and 127 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: their work in activism has been an ongoing thing before 128 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: and after her studies. So in two thousand, Rigolotto ran 129 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: for a political office as the federal Deputy of Mexico 130 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: Postibligue Party, which brought a lot of attention because they 131 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: were then known as the first transgender candidate in Mexico. 132 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: And this was in two thousand and three, pretty significantly 133 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: twenty two years ago, and you know, times were not 134 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: good than either, just like no, So they have been 135 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 2: doing this work and that was kind of what they 136 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: were known for. And so with their work and their thesis, 137 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 2: they really were talking about something on a different level 138 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: specific to their indigenous background. And they have continued to 139 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: publicly speak for the trades and indigenous communities as well 140 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: as the Mouchet community. They've been leading the Transformadome project 141 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: and here's a bit from Archisfoundation dot Org about that. 142 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: They quote them saying, we've had to create a strategy 143 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: for community safety so we're not invisible, and so we 144 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: can seek support from public agencies, which is so important, 145 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: for example, for healthcare during the pandemic, says Amaranto Gomez 146 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 2: Argalado and Mushe activist and professor as well as a 147 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: leader of the Transformadome project and coordinator of the private 148 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: investigation team. Transformandome is laying the foundations within the Wahaka 149 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: state systems to begin the process of recognizing our rights 150 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: that has been strengthened with activism in the last few years. 151 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: The guiding thread to our resilience has been that we 152 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: have started to become visible. Gomez continues, visibility is a 153 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 2: kind of social armor that we MUCHE have built for ourselves. Yeah, 154 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: they have worked to transform this conversation on a larger scale, 155 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: and their visibility advocacy has even led to schools being 156 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: named after them. The Esquela Amaranta Gomez Vagulado, which is 157 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: a private school that is located in Santiago, Chile, and 158 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: the school is specifically for trans students from the ages 159 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: of six through seventeen. So they are doing a lot 160 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: of work. I've seen them being featured on so many 161 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: panels and conversations about visibility and writes an advocacy for 162 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: their community. So they are doing so much, and I 163 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 2: want to come back in conversation about the Indigenous community 164 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: and trans writes and what they did beforehand to have 165 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: such an impact in our community and how we should 166 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: follow their example. 167 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we should definitely come back and talk 168 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: about that in the meantime. Listeners, if you have any 169 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: resources on that or anybody we should look into, please 170 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: let us know. You can email us at Hello at 171 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: Stuffannever Told You dot com. You can also find us 172 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: on Blue Sky at Mossup podcast, or on Instagram and 173 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. 174 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: We have some new merchandise at Cotton Hero and we 175 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: have a book you can get where you get your books. 176 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super produced Christina, our executive producer, 177 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: my interer computor Joey, Thank you and thanks to you 178 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: for listening Stuffan Never Told You So much? 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